Ship of Fools: Hell: Myers-Briggs

Thread: Hell: Myers-Briggs Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :

The political compass thread in heaven acquired a Myers-Briggs subplot.

For the record, the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory is a parlor game, not a scientific tool. Why don't you ask me what my sign is instead?

[ 25. April 2003, 14:55: Message edited by: sarkycow ]

Posted by Willyburger (# 658) on :

Or maybe I could ask you about your Taylor-Johnson results. [Killing me]

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

Logician, I dare you to find a single piece of psychology that can be considered as hard science - without involving samples of hundreds.

Nevertheless, I think a personality inventory can be an important part of a psychological evaluation (black magic though that may be). What's amusing is the number of times I been given a Myers-Briggs as part of a job interview.

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

Most of my professinal life has been in a field where the Myers-Briggs is used as a diagnostic tool sometimes. Used as a starting point or a way to put certain things in perspective, but not, I repeat not, as a way to lump people into categories (much like astrology as Logician has already mentioned).

Using Myers-Briggs as a means for perspective is much different (and more helpful in specific cases) than the way people latch onto their type and use it as some sort of predictor of behavior. This reminds me of highly reputable work done on non-verbal communication which has now also entered into popular culture as a predictor. e.g., a person rubs his/her nose = they are lying. Sometimes the nose itches.

I am ambivalent about all this. On the one hand, I think it is beneficial for research to be accessible to the general public. On the other hand, I dislike when such research is reduced to "he's an INFP--no good to as a love interest, etc." (no offense meant toward people who have recieved the INFP result.)

And on the third hand--bet you didn't know I had one [Smile]

--I resented being given the MMPI for a job interview, and don't get me started on the Enneagram (also useful in certain cases, but highly abused).

Many of these inventories are promoted and interpreted by people with very little training, alas. I've seen the Myers-Briggs brought out at parties. Alas again.

sabine

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

I once had a love interest who was an INFP--he was a pretty good guy. [Wink]

sabine

Posted by anglicanrascal (# 3412) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I once had a love interest who was an INFP--he was a pretty good guy.

sabine

"They" generally are. [Wink]

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:

What's amusing is the number of times I been given a Myers-Briggs as part of a job interview.

They might as well analyse your handwriting or read your bumps. Reading entrails - now that would be interesting.

There are some serious privacy issues in using pyschological profiling in recruiting - not least that any consent to the collection and processing of your personal data is likely to be vitiated by the fact that you had to agree to be tested in order to be considered for the job. (Except in Australia of course, where the so-called privacy law is so woolly and inexact that very few people actually understand it.)

Recruiting is an inexact science, but I wouldn't want to be a part of any organisation that placed its trust in psychological profiling as an aid to selection.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

When I saw the MBTI available on the Political Compass link, I thought, "Oh, Lord, not this too!" I worked several years in a company that used Myers-Briggs extensively and I am weary of it. Here are my complaints:
(1) While I admit that there is some value to such tests -- I would say in terms of one's personal growth and self-knowledge (and, since these are often administered in the workplace, they can help with professional growth as well) -- this is not how I have seen Myers-Briggs used. It is used for "team building" in many corporate environments. Now, I have done team building interventions [not MBTI-based ones], having spent the last decade in the corporate training/performance improvement biz. But I don't think you improve the performance of a group by giving them four-letter handles with which to stereotype one another. OK, I overstated that a bit. It does help somewhat to see where, say, an ENFJ could potentially lock horns with a colleague who was an INTP [and I worked in banking, where there were INTPs coming out of the woodwork]. Aside from helping people "get along better" on a pretty superficial level, the Myers-Briggs doesn't do squat to improve a team's job performance, yet this is how it's being used.
(2) It's attained almost cult proportions. There's a whole industry out there that manufactures MBTI "stuff". I've seen vendors displays at training conferences, booths piled high with coffee mugs that proclaim "ENTJ" and cute little plaques to hang in your cubicle to show the world you're an ISTP. Good grief!
(3)There are instruments that give individuals more in-depth, insightful information, IMHO, such as the Birkman analysis. But they are more expensive, take longer, are more complex.And that makes them a tougher sell for companies that want an intervention that's quick, cheap, and easily explained.

OK, now I feel better.
-- Mamacita, ENFJ (there aren't many of us)

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Logician, I dare you to find a single piece of psychology that can be considered as hard science - without involving samples of hundreds.

You can take a look at my CV (link available on PM request) for some nice studies (well I think so) with about 30 or 40 subjects with very interesting effects. If the effect is big enough you can do replicable studies with fairly small numbers.

Myers-Briggs however has been used on hundreds of people and fails two major tests that psychometric instruments need to pass before they are any use:

It is not reliable - it is supposed to be a personality test, not a "current mood state test", yet the same person can take it a week apart and get completely different results. Personality doesn't change that fast.

It is not valid - it does not predict behaviour or circumstances in real life - so it's no use as a job performance predictor, or a social-dynamics predictor, or anything else.

In other words it's about as much use as your star sign or the bumps on your head for such purposes. Probably best used as a parlour game. I won't participate even in parlour game uses of it, though, because I feel its inherent untruthfulness is unchristian.

Other psychometric tests ARE valid and reliable and DO predict job performance, future behaviour etc.

Posted by auntbeast (# 377) on :

Weeee, other people who don't like the Myers-Briggs Yippeee.

The only thing I have ever managed to figure out from the M-B is that I suffer from multiple personality Disorder. I clock in as something different every time. It has created some interesting discussions among people of their styles but that is where its usefullness ends IMO. Apparently you can now M-B your whole life... prayer styles for each type, communication styles, jobs etc etc etc.

As for other psychometrics, there are some very good ones, which are very helpful when administered by competent clinicians. We use them frequently in our court assessments at work and find them invaluable.. however it will be a cold day in hell when any of our doctors gets up and says "you honour, based on the Meyers Briggs test the accused should be dealt with in the following manner".

Back to the parlour with it I say.

Cheers,
Auntbeast

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Logician, you are "INTJ."

Posted by Zealous Convert (# 1996) on :

I've taken the test lots of times, and have always felt that almost every answer was either "well...it depends really..." or something of that ilk. It's always seemed ridiculous to me.

The only thing that does seem right to me is that when the test was given to a bunch of librarians, almost all of us came out "I!"

Katie
(INFP, and really an excellent love interest)

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Ha! There you go, Logician! An INFP "Crusader" like Joan of Arc, whose handle is "Zealous Convert." And show me an extroverted librarian while you're at it!

Thank you Zealous!

Posted by anglicanrascal (# 3412) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zealous Convert:

(INFP, and really an excellent love interest)

INFPs in fact are the best love interests that there are ... well, that's the way it is in my internal private world, anyway. Feel happy to disagree with this if you want to and it will make you feel better. You are probably right in your own way.

Posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness (# 7) on :

I've done the Myers-Briggs test several times now, and while if I'm honest, I always come out at the scary extreme end of ENFP, I've found it really, really easy to cheat. You can come out of it with any result you want, really.

Which is good news for job interviews. [Big Grin]

Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :

The Milkman of Human Kindness - you must be my twin sister/ brother.... I too am extremely ENFP. I kind of liked it though , cause i can now blame my procrastinating inability to actually start or finish anything (being a 'visionary.....') on my personality?! [Big Grin]

Posted by Astro (# 84) on :

Whenever I've taken it I've always come out slightly differently so I am probably unclassifyable

Posted by D' (# 2901) on :

I think RooKs has a point in Myers-Briggs sometimes being useful as a starting point. I know it helped my sister and brother-in-law to understand where the other was coming from in discussions and decision making, but it doesn't allow for bad days or any sort of outside influences that effect the way we are but aren't intrinsic to who we are.

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :

I've alwways thought it an entertaining starting point for discussion of how different people operate, so in a way a bit of a parlor game. I wouldn't bet my love life or my career on such a thing. That doesn't mean it's entirely useless.

Laura
(INTJ)

Posted by Warrior Tortoise (# 2682) on :

I have don MB 3 times now and come out as an ENFP each time (and scarily quite high results too, is that part of the ENFP personality??)
Anyway I've also done it as a prayer/worship type and again I came out ENFP. Very odd. But bizarrely the suggestions were to pray in a quiet way, which is the opposite "natural" response for an ENFP (or so I was lead to believe).

I always thought that if I met someone who was my total opposite (ISTJ) I would realy hate them. It actually turned out to be one of my good friends. [Big Grin]

I was told when I first did the test that it wasn't "allowed" to be used in job interviews. You could do it with candidates, but the final selection choice should not be based on the outcome.

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :

Hmm, the first time I took the test I was ENTP, and all subsequent tests show me as ENXP (meaning I scored equally on the N and F portions.)

I've used the MBTI as nothing more than a tool to see how I process information and relate with people, and see how they relate with me. I'm not a psychologist, so I have no idea of the "worthiness" of the MBTI, but I found it both amusing and an aid in helping me understand myself and others. For example, it helped me understand I wasn't "wrong" because I like my options open rather than closed, and that the "NT" facet of my personality didn't mean I was some robot, but just someone very logical at times.

Posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :

Errr...

Can add my name to the growing list of ENFPs on the Ship? [Embarrassed]

Apparently we are not a common group - but I know of at least 5 and all of those have been at the church I go to [Confused]

No wonder we never seem to manage to get anything done - but then again we need a few more practical people rather than intuitive dreamers [Help]

Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :

just thought that Id add that I married my complete opposite - ISFJ!!!!!!

Its working ok so far..... [Big Grin]

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

Well you've all managed to prove both of my points - Myers-Briggs doesn't give the same result twice for a large number of people, and it doesn't predict behaviour or relationships at all well!

I don't like it as I've said, even as a parlour game, because of its inherent untruthfulness

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kenwritez:
I was ENTP

Yes! Another ENTP! I thought I was the only one. We should form a club. Maybe get our own section on the Ship... [Love]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

Happy to double post, I just want to agree with all of the above.

In a previous job we all were forced to take the MB and had fun comparing our scores and qualities. We "P"s noticed that we needed "J"s, who are generally mean and judgmental people (which I'm sure I need not point out to anyone), in order to function. Without "J"s around we just got all mushy and were unable to do the job right.

On a particular occasion, a young woman and I were flubbing up a particular project, and she summed it up by confiding in me, "Well, I'm just afraid that my "P"ness is showing."

I tried not to look, but I just couldn't help myself. [Eek!]

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

good grief, people are taking this seriously!

If you want to rain down hearts on each other because of a completely rubbish test, maybe it should be done in Heaven.

Posted by WorkInProgress (# 3597) on :

I covered Myers-Briggs a while ago in my course then, and again just recently (different course). Both times it was used as an example of a 'bad' psychometric test. The first time I didn't understand why this was the case and the tutor didn't bother to explain. However, I went to a party (we were lead to believe it would be, any peg) in September. The woman who had volunteered to 'do the serious bit' (in our host's own words) decided to start by making us all complete the test. Three of the 'party-goers' had done the test previously. I didn't admit it, one gave the 'got the same results' answer and the other gave the 'can't quite remember...' answer. Not sure, but I think we all lied (shock - horror - Christian party where people lie!) - I know I did. Point being, most people at this party didn't really want to stay on and play a naice game of 'Therapy'. Although I understand the party got better when the game got going, I made excuses and left. Quickly. With a friend, who also could not decide who she was most embarrassed for - the host/s, the speaker or the rest of the group.
Any peg. I agree, Chukovsky - not even as a parlour game.

(I seem to recall both our host and her husband being rather desparate to take myself and the friend to where we were going, even though we could have walked...)

Posted by OgtheDim (# 3200) on :

Didn't we just do this a few months ago??? What MBti score repeats things? [Wink]

Moving on....understanding personality types can be useful but...stereotyping them is dangerous. The current fad usage of the MBti will end when HR people realise the limitations and, more importantly, realise how much money all this useless testing is costing them.

I look forward to the day when the ultra righteous conservatives start complaining about Myers-Brigg and its relationship to Harry Potter.

[Eek!]

Posted by coffee jim (# 3510) on :

I'm INFP (but not extremely - pretty borderline on the T-P axis). What's all this crap about us being 'bad love interests' (bizarre wording, I know)?
The test was dumped on us during my year at the Corrymeela Community by a psychologist/RC priest. The actual test was carried out in a 'schoolroom' atmosphere, which didn't bring out the best in everyone (especially me). The 'unveiling' of our results was good fun, I suppose; and the ISTP profile fitted our maintenance guy to a T. When the said priest went on a Jungian tangent about our Shadows, what the handout said about mine made quite a bit of sense.
I wasn't best pleased (well, I became rather paranoid) when I found our types (inaccurately) recorded on the wall of the main meeting room.
Purely for decorative purposes - no one had the motivation or time to allocate us to work with specific groups on the basis of our results. The idea of an employer actually doing this chills me.

Posted by coffee jim (# 3510) on :

P.S. That bit where we had to give a preference for words - without taking into account the sound or look of the word - was just stupid.

Posted by maleveque (# 132) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
Ha! There you go, Logician! An INFP "Crusader" like Joan of Arc, whose handle is "Zealous Convert." And show me an extroverted librarian while you're at it!

Thank you Zealous!

I resemble that remark! As one of the half-dozen or so extroverted librarians in the United States, I feel I must object to such rank stereotyping!
Chukovsky - thanks for your analysis of MB. I told my mom (who loves the stuff) that I thought it was as valid as a horoscope, and her reply was "that's just what an ENTJ would say." Guess that's my j-ness showing. [Eek!]

Anne L.

Posted by Abo (# 42) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
snip, snip, snip
-- Mamacita, ENFJ (there aren't many of us)

I'm one as well. But I think it would be very easy to cheat if I wanted to. My results didn't surprise me at all and it's a nice coincidence that I'm a happy and successful teacher by profession.

I find those test rather amusing. What I find less amusing is if people take them seriously.
They can be a helpful tool if they are used with a grain of salt. We did a similar test within our team at work and it very much helped us to understand priorities, irritations, occupational needs etc. of each other (and ourselves!) much better. But I think the decisive factor was not the test as such but the lengthy discussions that followed.

Abo

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :

Well, the MBTI was useful to me in helping me understand some aspects of my personality, so I have some liking for it, but it's not as if the results of taking it are carved in stone or the MBTI itself has been handed down from God with thunder and lightning.

I don't know whether or not the MBTI is a useful psychological diagnostic (and I've heard from sources off-Ship that it is not) so I won't worry about it. I agree that using it during a job hiring process is pretty silly--how is it supposed to realistically benefit either the prospective employee or the employer?

I think it seems to work well as a sort of popular "rule of thumb" personality illustrator (for that particular moment) and in my experience with it, it is a tad more accurate than astrology or entrail reading (and certainly much, much easier to clean up after!) It allows the test taker to hear some explanations for aspects of his personality that he may not have heard before, so he can consider them and see if they're accurate or not.

No, I don't take the test or its results as Gospel, nor do I use the test as a definitive lens through which I view other people and my interaction with them. Frankly, I don't give a rip what anyone's MBTI type is. If I know someone's MBTI type, then I have, at the absolute best, an extremely general idea of a few facets of their personality.

(ENTPs rock, tho. Yeah, Freddy! [Killing me]

)

Posted by ptarmigan (# 138) on :

I once came out ISTJ and two years later ENFP.

It is drivel.

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Go and share your MBTI scores in heaven and all those warm fuzzy thoughts.
Anyway I suspect Myers- Briggs is only one step ahead of star signs in accuracy with one difference Christians fall for it.

Posted by anglicanrascal (# 3412) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
Errr...

Can add my name to the growing list of ENFPs on the Ship?

Ahh ENFPs.

So close, and yet so far!

Posted by bessie rosebride (# 1738) on :

For what it's worth, I'm an INFP.

I don't care a thing about being a love interest. I would run if I thought I was. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :

You know what Jesus' MBTI was?

INRI

[Killing me]

I crack myself up.

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

It's a useful guide on the job front, though needs to be taken cautiously; I'm extremely well suited to being a computer programmer as an ISTJ, grinding the logic of situations into ever smaller pieces until they can be built into what we need, a task that would drive an ENFP nuts very very fast. And it has certainly been a major source of personal growth for me as I came to understand why other people react so differently from me. A particularly valuable issue was the S/N distinction; we did a mass assessment of my church, and found we relatively N as a congregation - which revealed why I found myself frustrated when on church council so often; they were talking vision and generalities - I was thinking specifics. A VERY valuable insight for me.

On the broader horizon, the reality of 'F' people in the world explains why logical analyses of situations actually don't work out; at some point the emotional component overwhelms the logic - a concept that a hardline 'T' struggles to allow for!

Posted by logician (# 3266) on :

quote:
Logician, I dare you to find a single piece of psychology that can be considered as hard science - without involving samples of hundreds.

Before I give my disagreements, Rook, let me acknowledge considerable agreement with that sentiment. For more ammunition, I recommend Robin Davies' House of Cards (I think I got that right).

If you include in psychiatry and neuropsychology, you find increasingly evidence-based fields. But even in psychology proper, there is good evidence for Cognitive-Behavioral techniques, and a fair bit of behaviorism. The MMPI is basically an empirical test. Given that even the hard sciences have an unfortunate softness in their publication, psychology is making its way along as an evidence-based field.

JimT -- An extroverted librarian? Uh, my wife. Her oldest friend. Her assistant. Her first boss. Her first trainee. I don't want to smack you around because you're a smart guy, but gee, you walked into that one.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Of course there are extroverted librarians! Someone has to work the front desk and interact with the public. I was baiting you with a trick question. I am an ENTP (very borderline T my ENFP brethren and sistren), so I have an answer for everything, can change tactics in mid sentence, and weasle into a winning position every time.

Now tell me you are not an 'INTJ.' You left that out didn't you? Thought you had me on the librarian thing. Bring it on buddy, I like you well enough to have a Hellish fight with you. I'll buy you a drink when it's all over, but first I've got to kick your ass.

Moving right along, why are there almost no 'S' people around here? Almost everyone is an 'N.' Isn't it true that 'N' is only 1/4 of the US population? This is not random, it is statistically significant! We would expect 'N' for a religious site, and we get exactly that in disproportionate numbers. And you are an N!

Moving right along, we have an equal split of 'T' and 'F.' The 'T' people, like you and me, are always stressing logic and principles and the 'F' people think we're a little arrogant sometimes and too impressed with our reasoning ability. We expect the Ship to follow half and half on this, just like the general population, and we get a mix of systematic theologians and "go with your heart" truth seekers. And you are a T!

Then there are the 'P's and the 'J's. I'd say we have a few more 'P's and bet it is statistically different from the general population. I'd expect a few more 'P's because this is an 'open-minded debate' style board. But 'J's who like to argue their point do stick around, taking strong positions. The 'P's twist things around from all angles. And you are a J!

Of course people can lie and come out any way they like, especially once they've taken the test. Of course some people have weak preferences and come out different on different days. They don't understand themselves. Give me a couple of days, let me ask them anything I want, do not tell them I am evaluating them, and I will guess them better than an astrologist can guess their sign I assure you of that!

Now. A really diabolical therapist like you with a bug up his ass about this test probably can't even take it honestly. So if you have not come out INTJ it's not because you aren't; it's just that you need me as a disinterested expert to tell you what's going on. I really like this argument because it means I can't be wrong. Fellow ENTPs take note of this tactic!

The test can't tell you if a person's crazy and it can't tell you exactly what job they will want or be good at, but it does tell you about how they make decisions, analyze ambiguous situations, and most of all argue with other people when conflicts arise.

Now, tell me why you called it a "Parlor Game." And please summarize "House of Cards" because I don't have time to read it.

Look deep inside yourself and realize that you are INTJ.

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
...Now, tell me why you called it a "Parlor Game."...

I can't speak for Logician, but I call it that, too. Aside from the fact that one generally gets different results at different times and in different moods, I object to the fact that one gets the label -- the pigeonhole -- regardless of one's actual numeric score. One can be at the very top or the very bottom for a given category, and the letters come out the same.

Furthermore, Jung himself admitted that it wasn't scientific, and that he'd based his study on an extremely limited sample of individuals.

Along with the apt comparisons to astrology and phrenology, I would point out that it also resembles the Japanese fashion for assigning personality traits by blood type.

A truly frightening report from an online friend notes that most people at her church have their MB "types" on their name tags! Pseudoscience of that sort is as bad as regular superstition.

Finally, my dear mother is an extroverted librarian. And the only times she's ever worked the front desk is when they were short-handed.

Rossweisse // who walked out on the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (given to all freshmen) because my feelings about the possibilities of demons cannot be summed up in a simple "yes" or "no" -- and any test-maker who obsesses that much about fecal matter is FAR sicker than I could ever be

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

INFP. Textbook. Classic.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally bandied about by logician:
If you include in psychiatry and neuropsychology, you find increasingly evidence-based fields. But even in psychology proper, there is good evidence for Cognitive-Behavioral techniques, and a fair bit of behaviorism. The MMPI is basically an empirical test. Given that even the hard sciences have an unfortunate softness in their publication, psychology is making its way along as an evidence-based field.

I must confess, my actual knowledge of psychology is extremely limited. Mostly I was baiting a particular stalker of mine that is a doctoral student of psychology, specializing in cognitive-behavioural evaluation. She's threatened me with the MMPI, but I suspect she'll save that for when I propose.

I'm hoping she loves my insanity as much as all of you seem to.

Now, now, stop adoring me all at once like that.

By the way,
[TRANSMOGRIFY INTO A HOST-BEAST]

Nightlamp's assertion that the proper place for joyfully comparing neuroses is Heaven makes sense to me. When I check back tomorrow, if some other Hell-host hasn't already killed or punted this thread, I will.

[/HOST MODE]

Posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness (# 7) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
INFP. Textbook. Classic.

Guys, you can't close this thread. Not with the baiting that's going on.

Posted by ¿Ham'n'Eggs? (# 629) on :

I am amazed that this shite has never ended up in Dead Horses. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

Me too, but last time I asked that about something I was told "You don't have to read the stuff".

Maybe it's just my overdeveloped sense of responsibility that leads me to want to save my fellow shipmates from something that is, as logician said, worse than astrology - just as little value but people actually fall for it.

Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :

On MBTI I come out strongly Introvert.

On another test chukovsky posted a link to some time back, which had sub categories of traits, I came out very extrovert in general, but anti social.

It's not that I'm scared of humans, I just don't like them much. [Devil]

TME

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
INFP. Textbook. Classic.

Are you speaking to me?

Nope. Try again.

Rossweisse // and tell me my star sign and blood type while you're at it

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
...Nightlamp's assertion that the proper place for joyfully comparing neuroses is Heaven makes sense to me. When I check back tomorrow, if some other Hell-host hasn't already killed or punted this thread, I will.

Will it help keep it sufficiently Hellish if I break one of my personal rules (the one about bad language) and declare that Myers-Briggs is a pile of shit designed and used by fascist-minded jerks to manipulate and keep others in line?

(I'm not saying I believe that totally, mind you, but it's close enough to the truth and I'm terribly uncomfortable in the fluffy regions.)

Rossweisse // [Two face]

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Why is it always about you? Look at me:

quote:
ENTPs are usually verbally as well as cerebrally quick, and generally love to argue--both for its own sake, and to show off their often-impressive skills. They tend to have a perverse sense of humor as well, and enjoy playing devil's advocate. They sometimes confuse, even inadvertently hurt, those who don't understand or accept the concept of argument as a sport.

Surely what little you have seen of me, even on this thread alone, show me as an archetypical ENTP. "Cerebrally quick,"; "often-impressive skills"; these characteristics are the very definition of my personality. I defy anyone to come up with a more apt description of me. If they can, it only goes to show how good I am at confusing them. Again, my point is proven.

Alas, the INFPs who do not recognize themselves as such must bear this in mind:

quote:
The INFP may turn to inferior extraverted Thinking for help in focusing on externals and for closure...Single impersonal facts may loom large or attain higher priority than more salient principles which are all but overlooked.

Indeed. The Truth stares at them in the face but inferior Thinking clouds their troubled minds. I would not wish to control or manipulate them, but would instead adjure them to accept the label given them by Higher Authority. As we are free to celebrate our individuality beneath the light and easy yoke of Christ, so should they feel free to celebrate their individuality beneath the modest label that is so rightly affixed to their lapels in more enlightened congregations.

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
ENTPs are usually verbally as well as cerebrally quick, and generally love to argue--both for its own sake, and to show off their often-impressive skills. They tend to have a perverse sense of humor as well...

Surely what little you have seen of me, even on this thread alone, show me as an archetypical ENTP. "Cerebrally quick,"; "often-impressive skills"; these characteristics are the very definition of my personality.... Alas, the INFPs who do not recognize themselves as such must bear this in mind...(blah blah hyperphony blah)

Actually, the ENTP is a pretty good description of ME -- but that's one type to which the parlor game has never accused me of belonging! In this it is very much indeed like astrology, where reading through the alleged types. Ooooh, the descriptions are so, like, totally, awesomely interchangeable!

No, when I've played through this joke, it accuses me of being an INTJ. And you, Mr. Expert, blew it totally on two occasions.

I see no substantive difference between those who write off others saying, "What do you expect? She's an INTJ!" and those who write them off saying, "What do you expect? She's a Capricorn!"

Rossweisse // happy birthday to me

[The senility brought on by your advanced age seems to have caused you to forget to Preview post.]

[ 17. January 2003, 04:03: Message edited by: RooK ]

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

I am another ENTP. I found the test results quite instructive - the profiles fit me to a tee but, as in most things which provoke epiphanies - it wasn't terribly useful. So what, I thought, and still think.

Raspberry Rabbit
ENTP
Montreal, QC

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

And I might add - all the women in my life (mother, ex-wife, daughter and current girlfriends) are all J's. Not a P amongst them.

RR
Mtl

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Rasberry, I've always admired the way you smacked me down in argument. What was the recent one? Oh yes, the Tassaday hoax. Gave me a hard time on unemployment, too, talking about the inadvisability of Canadian nest eggs. BTW, my wife is ISTJ and both my parents are ESTJ. Given my tendency to lapse into ENFP mode, I've had lots of time to practice my ENTP arguing.

Rossweisse, OK OK. I need to keep in mind that some T's when provoked can become irrational and that J's can be changeable and moody. Especially younger female ones. I'll have to remember that a young female INTJ looks like a mature male INFP.

But I am holding firm on "N." The only "S" I saw was ptarmigan in one of his moods. Where are all the "S"s? I actually expected a few SJ's, who carry on tradition and such. Where are they? I did not expect any SP's who are the "eat drink and be merry" types and to my knowledge no one is an SP. So what gives? No one here has blood type "A"? No one here is a Cancer?

Bullshit! Something real is going on! Logician where the Hell are you? (I'm changing my guess to INFJ for you, too, given some new information on other threads I've read. I agonized over the T and F for you, but now I've got it nailed. Your strong J made me think you were a T along with being too hard on yourself sometimes. But no. F is it.)

Posted by ThatsMrJuice2U (# 3076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:

Where are all the "S"s? I actually expected a few SJ's, who carry on tradition and such. Where are they? I did not expect any SP's who are the "eat drink and be merry" types and to my knowledge no one is an SP. So what gives? No one here has blood type "A"? No one here is a Cancer?

Well, I'm an SP. ISTP actually. And blood type A. But not a Cancer, though.

I'll just dance the "SP" fluffy-bunny dance. [Snigger]

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

I forgot about Charismatics and Heaven. The fun, the feeling, the ecstacy. It's right there in your profile: charismatic Heaven-poster.

Well over 90% of your recent posts are in Heaven, which is a bunch of fluffy SP fun, and none are in Purgatory which is NT/NF debateland, where I live. That takes real work, joy boy. No place for a charismatic, fun-loving, Heaven-posting, bunny-dancing "SP."

Anyone else? Logician, comments?

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :

ROFLMAO....

JimT! [Not worthy!]

JimT!

I can't wait for Logician to show up.

Ya know, I'm just gonna bring out the lawn chair and put my feet up, watch this lil' brouhaha, pop some peanuts and sip a nice glass of wine.

This is better than the Rose Parade.

(As I revel in my NF/NT-ness. About 75% E, almost totally P.)

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

I cannot understand why Christians take Myers Briggs seriously.

I was cajoled into going on (and paying for) a MBTI training course by a Christian counselling centre I worked in, surprise surprise at the end of the day we were introduced to the idea of our MBTI 'shadow'. As I recall, the 'shadow' is the opposite of the types in your profile, any or all of which might also mysteriously show up in your personality. Of course you need another course to understand your own and other people's shadows and when they might appear. And probably another after that to understand why bits of the types that are not yours or your shadow's might also show up in certain circumstances.

Having been heavily involved in astrology at one point, I would say MBTI fills exactly the same need to make you believe you can understand yourself other people without going to all the effort of getting to know them. MBTI and astrology both seem to downplay the possibility of personal transformation.

Any 'test' which asks you to give a subjective account of yourself (as the MBTI test does) will of course tell you exactly what you expected to hear about yourself.

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

Arrietty writes:

quote:
MBTI and astrology both seem to downplay the possibility of personal transformation.

Well, in a word, umm .... no. In the Diocese of Moosonee (in my youthful Junior Woodchuck days) we had a Myers Briggs Seminar and while the Diocese of Moosonee's seminars are in no way to be seen as being the authoritative last word on any subject we were told that a 25 year old's scores would be very different than his 50 year old scores - that one's absent bits would, in a healthy, curious and open individual, become areas of fruitful development as one grew older. I took the test twice - with about a decade between the tests and found precisely that easing of certain pronounced tendencies (or preferences).

And - given the whole Jungian premise behind the exercise - one wouldn't expect to see people's personalities or preferences cast in stone.

Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

Although - having said this I'd love to dialogue with the other ENTPs on the ship to see what we have in common which is, I suspect, rather a lot though I'm pretty sure I don't like them much.

Raspberry Rabbit
ENTP

Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :

OK, I'm intrigued...

JimT, what do you peg me as?

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

The way it is used popularly seems to be that the categorisation says something meaningful about who you essentially are. I am not sure if you are saying above that someone's category will change as they change. If that is the case then how often do you need it checked? Does it change suddenly or gradually? Suppose I was one thing last time I was assessed and tell people that but in fact I am another? How does that help them to relate to me?

If we do not need to know how people were assessed in a MBTI test because we can discern whether the category they tell us they belong to still fits, why do we need to take MBTI tests?

In the light of what yu have said about change, what does MB typology tell me except 'Fred is different from me, or at least he was the last time we both took MBTI tests'?

Posted by ThatsMrJuice2U (# 3076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
I forgot about Charismatics and Heaven. The fun, the feeling, the ecstacy. It's right there in your profile: charismatic Heaven-poster.

Well over 90% of your recent posts are in Heaven, which is a bunch of fluffy SP fun, and none are in Purgatory which is NT/NF debateland, where I live. That takes real work, joy boy. No place for a charismatic, fun-loving, Heaven-posting, bunny-dancing "SP."

I would say LOL, but that would be my "S"-ness showing. [Wink]

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

Also Spracht Arrietty

quote:
The way it is used popularly seems to be that the categorisation says something meaningful about who you essentially are.

Key word there is 'popularly' and the popular use *is* probably intended to declare who people 'essentially' are and, therefore, to avoid the labour of getting to know them. The popular use of such a tool would, as well, be defeated by the recognition that people change over time.

I mean, why would we even attempt to say who we 'essentially' are? I wouldn't mind know who you 'essentially' are if I have to make a snap decision about you and really don't care much about the'who' you essentially are. I'd hate to have someone tell me who I 'essentially' am. It would be time to have the Office read over me and my Requiem planned since the dice has obviously been thrown, my faults are set in stone and all my achievements and personal development have now been accomplished.

My point is that the tool is not a half bad way of measuring change and this in no way defeats its purpose.

Raspberry Rabbit
ENTP for now but who knows?
Montreal, QC

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Well currently it is a way of boring the shit out of me. I mean who takes it seriously?

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

There used to be a good website where you could take the Personality Sorter online - the full gamut of questions. It has, in the last couple of years, disappeared. I guess they realized that people were taking the test for free instead of paying trained people to administer it.

Hmmm. Everything's a racket!

Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

Nightlamp that's such a typical FUPS thing to say. I should have known you'd say something like that.

RR
Mtl

Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ThatsMrJuice2U:
I would say LOL, but that would be my "S"-ness showing.

That's better than your "P"-ness showing. childish snigger

[I wonder which part of MBti might be connected to what should be a relatively simple process of clicking one damn button to check UBB.]

[ 18. January 2003, 02:58: Message edited by: RooK ]

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
...Rossweisse, OK OK. I need to keep in mind that some T's when provoked can become irrational and that J's can be changeable and moody. Especially younger female ones. I'll have to remember that a young female INTJ looks like a mature male INFP....

Oh, oink off, you wannabe bully. What rot, all the way around. I have said nothing "irrational" in this thread -- even my decision to use a barnyard epithet was a fully rational decision to attempt to keep this topic in Hell where it belongs. You haven't answered (probably because you can't answer) my point about some of these silly descriptions being interchangeable.

So tell us, do you impose Myers-Briggs testing or test results on others for a living? What's your interest in pushing this garbage? Surely you can't be that, well, irrational. Can you?

Rossweisse // I say it's spinach, and I say the hell with it

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

OK, I've had my fun playing around. I had absolutely no idea what Rossweisse was and was just having fun. But I do think that the descriptions are not completely arbitrary and that they are of some use in looking at interpersonal relationships. I also think that they could be better explained to people. Having said all that, I am open to the idea that all my years of privately playing around with it, speculating about it, and informally using it in my systems consulting business were years spent just learning about people in general and rationalizing what I had learned into some kind of structure. I never gave the test nor did I run workshops; I am a database analyst. But I was also a project manager and that's where I used it. I would say that I used it successfully.

Logician, stop laughing your ass off. I'm serious and I really would be curious as to your reaction.

I found M-B to be useful in seeing how people made individual and group decisions, and how they argued with each other. I put in new computer systems and noticed right away that there were two camps: those that believed 100% in the new system and those who did not want the change or were skeptical about it. This is one of the signs of N vs. S split, the most important split.

Now, within the "N" camp, you would see a split between that folks were concerned about forming groups and committees and getting all points of view represented vs. folks concerned with training, developing expertise, getting experience, and testing for accuracy. This is the classic "F" vs. "T" split. The "NF" folks dealt with the human side of the equation and the "NT" with the technical side. The pure NFs would scream at the pure NTs about which was more important. The N side would usually be the NT computer department folks and the NF/NT department heads.

Within the "S" camp, the split was on a different basis. Some would just talk about how the new system (if those eggheads can ever get it working) would give more options for selling and supporting new products, would be more fun to use because it was in color or used a mouse, or would be easier on the eys. They wanted to use it as soon as possible and just dive in and play around. Others would scoff at these speculations and demand to see a rigorous schedule with several milestones passed before they would even entertain the notion that it might have a prayer of working. This is the P vs. J split that most effectively splits the S crowd into SP vs. SJ. The pure SPs would scream that the pure SJs were the dull drudges that were going to block the system from achieving the ends to which the new system could be put and the SJs would roll their eyes that the SPs swallowed the crap from the Ns that there was any hope at all. Especially without a schedule and successfully completed milestones. But both camps were agreed that the Ns had to get their shit together first. The "S" side tended to be the end users or marketing types.

We have so far:

NT (Technical Leaders)
NF (Organizational Leaders)

SP (End Users Wanting Fun)
SJ (End Users Wanting Work)

I'll give one SOF example of interaction between groups: yesterday I saw Milkman (pure NF) telling Erin (pure NT I assume) that the "validity" of Bush's election was more a matter of group consensus than logic. Erin stuck to her guns that logic is all that matters and you can't vote what is logical.

To complete the picture, we have to do the splits within the four groups. I've already droned on, so I'll just hit the high points. The J/P axis is what splits the NT and NF camps. You can see this for example when NTPs like me argue with Father Gregory, who I am quite sure is NTJ. We go along fine until he says "Chalcedon IS DECIDED" and we say "NOTHING IS DECIDED in the realm of religion." The T/F axis splits the SP and SJ camps. I simply don't see that here because I spend time in Purgatory where any SP or SJ is going to think a lot of theoretical horseshit is being shovelled all over the place for no good reason. An example I have seen is that my SJT wife is more likely to minister to people's physical needs than her SJF sister who gives emotional support.

This gives us

NTJ
NTP
NFJ
NFP

SPT
SPF
SJT
SJF

The least most important axis is I/E. I’ve dragged on so long I’ll just say that I see it as a preference for the internal or external. It’s hardly worth mentioning in terms of types, so I’ll just skip it. But you permute I/E into the above 8 groups and you get all 16.

NTJI
NTJE
NTPI
NTPE

NFJI
NFJE
NFPI
NFPE

SPTI
SPTE
SPFI
SPFE

SJTI
SJTE
SJFI
SJFE

Again, some people show no strong preference or tendency on any axis, so they come out differently. But I don’t think a pure N comes out a pure S on two different days. A very weak N might come out a very weak S on two different days.

Problems I recognize are overlaps in the axes; N likes new things for innovation and cleverness; P likes new things for variety and new utility. In my mind, I work more at this atomic level than the coarse level of N or P. But when someone is looking for something new, I ask myself if they are more interested in innovation or new capability. Or both.

The other problem is that people’s results are not qualified with a magnitude, nor are the scores given in the correct order left to right. I would give people a 1-3 for each trait, and give them left to right in order of importance as I’ve shown above.

I would be:

1N 1T 3P 2E (NTPE)

Tomorrow I might score

1N 1F 3P 2E (NFPE)

But I’m damn sure never gonna score

3S 3F 3J 3I (ISFJ)

So there you have it. Call it elaborate rationalization, call it imagined relationships. I’m laying it all out because I really did come up with this junk in my spare time, used it with what I thought was some success and wonder what a pro like Logician thinks.

And everyone else.

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

Well, actually, the MBTI is a little bit more nuanced than the way y'all are describing it. Where is really shines is giving a person insights into his own behavior--not in finding a partner via a jungian "what's your sign" approach.

And it shouldn't be confused with the truncated Keirsey-Bates "MBTI-lite" test that is found on the Internet. Hell, I used to have that on a Hypercard stack on an old Mac.

I suppose if I wanted to know the exact reasons why I am so attracted to the possibility of murdering stupid people who annoy me and burying their corpses in the woods, I would take a more "legitimate" test such as the MMPI-II. But really, I already know why I want to murder stupid people and bury them in the woods--it's because they annoy me.

However, the MBTI gave me refreshing insights into why I was bored at cocktail parties, why I could so easily disrupt a Vestry meeting back when I was a churchwarden, and why missing a deadline--even by a day--sent me so close to the edge. This was good information for me.

And, if truth be told, I don't give a damn if the reason other people don't meet my deadlines is because they are a "P" instead of a "J". It doesn't make me feel more understanding--let alone compassionate--toward them. They still annoy me and I want to murder them and bury their corpse in the woods.

Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on :

I had to take the MMPI some years back and am pretty sure that one of the questions was "Do you occasionally fantasize about murdering Episcopalians and burying their corpses in the woods?"

I'll let you guess how I answered it.

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
I mean, why would we even attempt to say who we 'essentially' are? I wouldn't mind know who you 'essentially' are if I have to make a snap decision about you and really don't care much about the'who' you essentially are. I'd hate to have someone tell me who I 'essentially' am.

If it was used in recruitment (or indeed for any purpose other than idle curiosity) that is exactly what it would be being used for. To cut through the image you present and get at the truth to see if the 'real' you will fit in to whatever it is you want to do.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

quote:
Tomb: Where is really shines is giving a person insights into his own behavior

Seriously, what is your type and what insights has it given you, tomb?

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :

Arrietty

It *s* used in recruitment and that's a shame.

Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

Presley, a little known fact about Episcopalians is that, when Presbyterians or Elvis fetishists sneak up on them, they are prone to fight back.

It's really very easy. The best way to take out a Presbyterian is during the Sermon. They're already in a stupor from it, and they hardly notice when they make that blessed transition from Boredom to Death.

Similarly, anybody listening to "Blue Hawaii" has at some point wished, "Oh, just kill me now and let it be over with."

Episcopalians are happy to oblige.

And Presley, I, too, took the MMPI years ago. Well I remember the question, "Do you ever want to smash things?" I fear I answered "NO" a little too vigorously as I dug my number 2 pencil all the way through the paper of that little circle and damaged the desktop underneath.

But I didn't go outside the lines, mind you.

And JimT, I could answer your question about my MBTI type, but then I'd have to kill you. Suffice it to say that there aren't many of me out there and we recognize each other when we meet. If you have to ask, you aren't one of us.

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

*Yawn*

Posted by Arch- (# 982) on :

I'm sorry but the longer I read this thread, the more confused I have become: a bit like a seeker after truth encountering liturgical language for the first time. Despite appearing very cynical, a lot of you then gaily use terms like INFP, INTJ, ENT, ISP, BNF, ABCDEFG, etc, etc, with no hint of elucidation. This post should really be consigned to the Things I would Consign to Hell Thread because I hate abbreviations that assume we all know the language we are speaking to each other. Well, I don't, having studiously and succesfully avoided Myers-Briggs even during its halcyon days. So if you are describing a personality type which, ha ha, you don't take seriously but has enough truth for you to talk about endlessly, please, please explain to the uninitiated. [Mad]

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Arch, here are the abbreviations, with links explaining them:

Extraversion or Introversion (E/I)
Sensation or Intuition (S/N)
Thinking or Feeling (T/F)
Judgment or Perception (J/P)

Each of the items above are to be imagined like a number line, and you get a score for each one depending on which side of the middle you land. For example, imagine Extroversion all the way to the left and Introversion all the way to the right. Your score will put you somewhere between the extremes. If you are exactly in the middle, you are an "X" meaning indeterminate. Otherwise you will be "extroverted" or "introverted" to some degree.

While there are 16 possible combinations, they are looked at as four groups of four each. The first four are:

RATIONAL NTs
IDEALIST NFs
ARTISAN SPs
GUARDIAN SJs

If you follow the links, you will see the four detailed groupings that are inside the four broad groupings. Each detailed grouping has a link that gives a full explanation.

Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :

Here are specialized prayers for all MB types...

ISTJ - Lord help me to relax about insignificant details, beginning tomorrow at 11:41 a.m. EST.

ISTP - God help me to consider people's feelings, even if most of them ARE hypersensitive.

ESTP - God help me to take responsibility for my own actions, even though they are usually NOT my fault.

ESTJ - God help me to not try to RUN everything. But if You need some help, just ask.

ISFJ - Lord help me to be more laid back, and help me to do it EXACTLY right.

ISFP - Lord help me to stand up for my rights, (if you don't mind my asking).

ESFP - God help me to take things more seriously, especially parties and dancing.

ESFJ - God give me patience, and I mean right now!

INFJ - Lord help me not to be a perfectionist (did I spell that correctly?)

INFP - God, help me to finish everything I sta

ENFP - God help me to keep my mind on one th -- Look a bird! -- ing at a time.

ENFJ - God help me to do only what I can and trust you for the rest. Do you mind putting that in writing?

INTJ - Lord keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they may be.

INTP - Lord help me to be less independent, but let me do it my way.

ENTP - Lord help me follow established procedures today. On second thought, I'll settle for a few minutes.

ENTJ - Lord help me slow down andnotrushthroughwhatIdo.

AMEN

Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on :

tomb Wayne Former-Hellhost wrote:

quote:
Presley, a little known fact about Episcopalians is that, when Presbyterians or Elvis fetishists sneak up on them, they are prone to fight back.

But how, tomb? I assume they must create a diversion by throwing a perfectly shaken martini in the victim's face and then go in for the death blow with a hand-forged seven iron.

And don't discount "Blue Hawaii." The movie starred Angela Lansbury as Elvis' clingy, rich bitch Southern mother who married an ineffectual pineapple plantation owner after the death of Elvis' father and barely contained her incestuous lust for The Pompadoured One. She gave quite a performance, if you're into that Tennessee-Williams-Meets-Hush-Hush-Sweet-Charlotte Southern Gothic thing -- as I'll bet a Goo Goo Cluster, an RC Co' Cola, and a heapin' helpin' of Chili Frito Pie that you are.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

OK, I "did my sums" as the Brits like to say. Between this thread and the other one there were 32 people.

There were 29 i(N)tuitives and 3 (S)ensitives. We expect 8 N and 24 S.
There were 10 (J)udgers and 22 (P)erceivers. We expect 16 each.
The (E)xtroverts/(I)ntroverts and (T)hinkers/(F)eelers were 17/15 and 15/17. We expect 16 each.
There were NONE of the four most common types in the general population: ESTJ, ESTP, ESFJ, and ESFP. They make up 56% of the general population and ZERO on the Ship.
There were FIFTEEN TIMES the number of INFPs and EIGHT TIMES the number of ENFPs relative to the general population.

The "general population" numbers come from my reading ten years ago that in the US and Western Europe, there were 3/4 E, 1/4 I, 3/4 S, 1/4 N, and 1/2 each of the rest. This is not random. It accords with anecdotal evidence from someone who said they were a rare S in a church full of Ns. It is predicted by these two descriptions of the most over-represented types on The Ship: ENFP and INFP. Descriptions are from the links I gave earlier.

quote:
For ENFPs, nothing occurs which does not have some deep ethical significance, and this, coupled with their uncanny sense of the motivations of others, gives them a talent for seeing life as an exciting drama, pregnant with possibilities for both good and evil. This type is found in only about 3 percent of the general population, but they have great influence because of their extraordinary impact on others.

3%. Right. But we have 25%.

quote:
INFPs have a profound sense of idealism derived from a strong personal morality, and they conceive of the world as an ethical, honorable place. Indeed, to understand Healers, we must understand their idealism as almost boundless and selfless, inspiring them to make extraordinary sacrifices for someone or something they believe in. The Healer is the Prince or Princess of fairytale, the King's Champion or Defender of the Faith, like Sir Galahad or Joan of Arc. Healers are found in only 1 percent of the general population, although, at times, their idealism leaves them feeling even more isolated from the rest of humanity.

1%. We have 15%.

What does this mean? It means that most practical people see no reason to go to church now that Hell is out of fashion and you are not ostracized in the community for not going. It means that some practical people in the church are capitalizing on it with McChurch. It means that while a minority of practical people in the church keep things going, the NFPs tell everyone how they should be miraculously transformed and converted in a mystical way while NTJs remind everyone not to forget about logic, systematics, consistency, and truth.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on :

Or there could be some self-selection bias. Perhaps ESTJs, ESTPs, ESFJs, and ESFPs are just as likely to post on the Ship, but less likely to reveal their MB results publicly: 1) because they're less likely to take the whole thing seriously; or 2) in a general spirit of "noneoyerdambizness."

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

*yawn*

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

I want a poll.

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Well they can do polls in Heaven so why not go and bore them.

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
...don't discount "Blue Hawaii." The movie starred Angela Lansbury as Elvis' clingy, rich bitch Southern mother who married an ineffectual pineapple plantation owner after the death of Elvis' father and barely contained her incestuous lust for The Pompadoured One. She gave quite a performance, if you're into that Tennessee-Williams-Meets-Hush-Hush-Sweet-Charlotte Southern Gothic thing -- as I'll bet a Goo Goo Cluster, an RC Co' Cola, and a heapin' helpin' of Chili Frito Pie that you are.

Actually, I'm more of the Faulkner As I Lay Dying sort myself. And I think Flannery O'Connor is a god.

And you can keep your pig-swill over-sweetened diabetic-dog-under-the-porch RC cola to yourself and all your emasculated mullet-flapping friends with their sissy little Toyota trucks with the battle flag on the bumper. My ambition is to rot my liver before my teeth fall out.

We take out Presbyterians through apnea and Elvisites with Percodan.

And Nightlamp, nobody cares a bowl-full of warm dogshit of you're bored.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
And Nightlamp, nobody cares a bowl-full of warm dogshit of you're bored.

Of you're bored? OF you're bored?

My my tomb, don't you wish you could still edit posts?

Did your little mind go a-wandering when you were trying to ahem 'compose' your post?

Viki

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
dogshit of you're bored.

Dogshit Of Your Board was Noel Harrison's follow up to his hit record Windmills Of Your Mind, wasn't it?

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

Honeee, when you can write as well as I do when medicated on gin, you can criticize a slip of the finger, so to speak. Got any money out of the Rev. Gerald yet?

I thought not.

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

Same to you, Arrietty.

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

Ooh, I'm wounded.*

I will try to soothe my hurt feelings with some mockery.

TOMB MADE A TYPO!!!! TOMB MADE A TYPO!!!!

Now we know your superpowers have gone, we can get our revenge.

MWA-H-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-A

*Or I would be, if your post made any syntactical sense whatsoever.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Honeee, when you can write as well as I do when medicated on gin, you can criticize a slip of the finger, so to speak.

Look petal, you claim you can write so well, but I can't see any evidence of this. All I see is impenetrable screeds of words, which are apparently and allegedly insulting to Pres. Try using English to write your posts.

quote:
Got any money out of the Rev. Gerald yet?

I thought not.

Why waste your time squeezing money out of the pauper, when you can torture him instead? And it's not like anyone cares enough to try and free him.

Viki

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

Yes, and we all know who got his money, don't we?

Screed, indeed. You know I'm gonna win.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Yes, and we all know who got his money, don't we?

Screed, indeed. You know I'm gonna win.

Win what poppet?

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
Ooh, I'm wounded.*

I will try to soothe my hurt feelings with some mockery.

TOMB MADE A TYPO!!!! TOMB MADE A TYPO!!!!

Now we know your superpowers have gone, we can get our revenge.

MWA-H-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-A

*Or I would be, if your post made any syntactical sense whatsoever.

Superpowers, indeed. I have never used my "superpowers" against you. *Edit this post. Delete this redundant post.* Delete umpteen stupid threads.

My superpowers are in my command of language (if not my typing). If my post made no "syntactical sense," this just goes to demonstrate your tenuous command of the language.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
If my post made no "syntactical sense," this just goes to demonstrate your tenuous command of the language.

Quick grammar lesson poppet:

The comma doesn't belong to the words "syntactical sense", and so should go outside the quote marks.

Hope this helps in your writing.

Viki

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

In American usage, the punctuation is always placed within the quotation marks. It's a typographical thing, not a linguistic one. Though I suspect you wouldn't understand.

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

I care tomb and that matters. Mind you this thread has improved since we moved into pointing out you do not have perfect control over the English language. Have you considered taking a course on how to improve your grammar?

Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on :

Pardon me as I choke out this phrase:

tomb (gasp)

is (cough, cough)

right.

There -- now put me out of my misery.

Posted by logician (# 3266) on :

Tomb, if you haven't already read it, both The Transitive Vampire and Less Than Words Can Say would please you greatly.

JimT, you wonder what I've been thinking?

You are friendly and mix well with others, but value your privacy as well. Firm in your opinions, but not overbearing. Your compatible signs are the Elk and the Squirrel, and though you are attracted to Wombats, you should be cautious around them.

I am seriously thinking of changing to Village Idiot.

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

An hhhhumble correction. When I wrote above:

quote:

...And you can keep your pig-swill over-sweetened diabetic-dog-under-the-porch RC cola...

I meant to write:

quote:
...And you can keep your pig-swill over-sweetened diabetic-dog-under-the-porch-piss RC cola...

Consider this post in place of a hostly correction in which I noted "added piss to my quotation."

(Note the position of the period, Sarky?)

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

Defending an absurd language practice because it's commonly "dun that there way" by a group of semi-literate inbred morons is hardly a defense.

JimT, clearly the MBti is not of much value to the Ship's denizens, particularly Hell. Not only are there narrow bands of types likely to post in this sort of forum, the qualities described by the system refer primarily to "real life". I propose that we develop an alternate coding system for describing "Ship" personalities.

For example "Trolling/Moderating", "Flaming/Hugging", "IntelligentPosts/FluffyBunnies", or "Wrangler/Badger".

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

To Presley: Honey, you know I'd never put you out of your mizry, 'cause I enjoy it too much.

To Nightlamp: no, I've never considered taking a course to improve my grammar because I'm an humble sort of person and if I were perfect, it would probably discourage the people around me, and that would make Jesus sad.

And yes, Logician, I have read both of those books; indeed, they are in my library, and I long for the day when I can correct somebody in public on the difference between chiasmus and syncope.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Logician, I'm well aware of what you're talking about with astrology and have seen experiments where they hand out the same description to everyone in the room and ask how many say it seems to fit. Nearly all say yes. A parlor trick as you say.

I'll turn the heat up a little and make a comparison to IQ. What if we just tried to classify people as "S" for "smart" and "D" for "dumb"? People near the middle would say, the test is bullshit. I come out "smart" one day and "dumb" the next. The "smart" description says that I should think about engineering or law and can learn just about anything I set my mind out to. The "dumb" description says that I better just be a janitor or other unskilled worker. How can I be both? This test is bullshit. Someone else comes along and says "I don't know, I scored way smart every time and I can't do engineering but I sure can do law. Maybe there's something there."

I think the four crude dimensions of MB are each like the IQ dimension.

For my last parlor trick, it was your extreme slant toward linguistic analysis that convinced me firmly that you are an NF. Zero chance of anything else. You think slowly, carefully, and deliberately and hate to change your mind. You are a J. I am guessing that you are more inward-directed instead of outward-directed and think you are probably I.

Go ahead and tell me. Don't be cute like tomb. Are you INFJ?

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

LOL RooK, I'm going to give that some thought. Thing is, for Hell, all axes and descriptions should be negative. We could even develop a test. People could come out "JERK" or "DICK" or whatever. Great idea!

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :

I can't decide whether the lot of you are too pathetic to frighten me, or not.

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

BOO!

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :

Pathetic it is.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Ah! Ah-ha! How silly of me! Finally I can go to bed and get some sleep.

Logician, the primary problem with you and MB is linguistical: the names of the ends of the axes don't mean what they say. I grant you that. You have to ignore them and try to see what the real underlying concept is.

The problem is, we don't have quasi-meaningful words like "intelligence" for each of the axes. The words "intuitive" and "sensitive" are completely idiotic choices for a quality that is something like "willingness to embrace the speculatively possible." There is absolutely no good reason to call a high degree of that "intuition" and a low degree of it "sensation." It's like using "collegial" for high intelligence because you can go to college and "elemental" for low intelligence because you can only go to elementary school. Popeye could come up with better names. (Nightlamp, work with me, that was the funny part of this dull post).

The MB language is atrocious. It took me a long time to learn to completely ignore the labels and go for the concept as best I could understand it from the pathetic language found in some of the short descriptions. Eventually, I got a feel for what the dimensions are. Perhaps you wouldn't find it worth the effort or impossibly maddening; I could see that. I could also see how it throws off a lot of people.

At least I can sleep now.

And Nightlamp can give out one of his heaving yawns. Go ahead. Be boringly consistent.

Posted by logician (# 3266) on :

Poor JimT, asking me to try and help salvage something from the MB. It goes against my nature, but you've been such a good sport I'll have a try.

By the way, I took the MB years ago and had a set of letters assigned to my score. I don't remember what they were, so you can stop guessing. I can't help you there.

Potentially, as a four-axis test describing personalities along a continuum, but simplifying the results with a four-letter summary, the MB could be a good idea. Where it falls (Chukovsky, please comment here) is in not looping back 'round to see if the questions asked actually do measure what they are supposed to. They have surface validity, and look like they might measure those traits. Some of the questions probably are good ones, pointing us in the direction of some personal quality.

To piggyback on your analogy to intelligence testing, it is as if some reasonably clever folks set out to develop new WAIS questions. They might try a hundred questions along the lines of "What direction would you travel to get from Helsinki to Oslo?" before they found one that separated better-informed people from others. Too many of the questions would have large accidental factors, in which too many people were lucky/unlucky in knowing something about Scandinavian geography.

Is it a good test? No. Is it salvageable? Probably not. Could something like it be useful? Proabably.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
In American usage, the punctuation is always placed within the quotation marks. It's a typographical thing, not a linguistic one. Though I suspect you wouldn't understand.

American usage don't mean diddlysquat in terms of English grammar hon, and you know that. Stop trying to be all independent and stubborn, and come back to the truth.

Viki

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :

Neither does English usage, apparently.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Logician, thanks. I'd really love for you to take the test if only to see whether you think it has improved. I found a free one here. It is 73 questions and I do think it loops back to see if it is really measuring the same thing over and over. It makes 73 attempts to measure only 4 variables, so it has a large amount of redundancy. True, it is simplistic and some questions require you to admit that you're something of a jerk because social norms say you "shouldn't be that way." It might coach some people into making one answer or another. But it was good enough to peg me as ENTP, and I have never come out anything else in 12 years. I was 33%E 67%N 33%T 56%P on this particular test today.

Be a sport. Give it a whirl.

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Please go to heaven to share results of personality tests and don't bring that kind of crap into hell.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

Alright Jim, I'll bite. I took the test, and answered honestly. What am I?

I'll even be honest and admit you if you're right in your guess (which you won't be).

Viki

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

I did start a poll in Heaven before I saw your final warning, Nightlamp. Jesus you're quick on the trigger and a real bastard on enforcement. Must be an "NTJ."

So far 100% of The Ship is ENTP.

Sarky, give me some time to go through your posts. Should be child's play. Every Hellhost is an NT because they care enough about religion to be here (N) and they don't give a shit about people's feelings (T). You seem a little playful, so first cut is (P). As to E or I, first guess is E because you're a host and post quite often. Let's see, oh shit you'd be an ENTP just like me. Preliminary assessment ENTP.

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eanswyth:
...ESFJ - God give me patience, and I mean right now!...

This is the one that actually fits me the best. And the MOST amusing part is that only one letter is in my official astrological sign....er M-B type.

Rossweisse // still waiting for the personality-by-blood-type analysis

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

You've got a practical side and stay away from Purgatory. The fun of Heaven and Hell are more to your liking. You are a rare S here on the ship.

I stand by my initial assessment for all other dimensions.

Sarkycow: ESTP.

How did I do?

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
...Tell me I'm wrong.

Okay. You're wrong.

As previously noted, most of the MB "type" descriptions are every bit as general as their astrological equivalents. I believe that there are ethical aspects to most things in the world, too. But I ain't that type.

As Raspberry Rabbit (I believe -- sorry, but it's hard to catch up with a thread after days away!) noted, the real crime is that this garbage is used in deciding whom to hire or promote, and in other real-world arenas. Appalling.

Rossweisse // still looking for the science here

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
...The MB language is atrocious....

At last -- something upon which we can agree.

Rossweisse // Capricorn on the cusp of Aquarius (or is it the other way around?)

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Check the polls. The informal one and the real one. More science is on the way. You've been blinded by my science already.

I will grant you that using the test to give people jobs and promotions is as unethical as doing it off an IQ test. But as an aid to self-understanding and promotion of tolerance it is useful.

Tolerate me goddammit!

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
You've got a practical side and stay away from Purgatory. The fun of Heaven and Hell are more to your liking. You are a rare S here on the ship.

I stand by my initial assessment for all other dimensions.

Sarkycow: ESTP.

How did I do?

Nope. Wrong both guesses.

How about we up the ante? Give you more of a reason to guess right - third time lucky and all that?

If you guess rightly, then the thread stays open and postable-to; if you guess wrongly then you take your predictive crap up to Heaven, where other games go.

Viki, hellhost

Posted by logician (# 3266) on :

Tolerate you? In Hell? What an amusing concept.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Sarky, your posts are too short to tell much of anything and they are more about your reactions to others rather than revealing about you. I can't do any better. Sorry. If Ceaser must fall upon his sword, then Fall Caeser and to Heaven we go!

Final guess: ESTJ (wild-assed guess based on almost nothing).

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

Bad luck [Devil]

Tis nothing but a guessing game.

No go bore the heavenly hosts with guesses about peoples' profiles.

Viki

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

Agreed. No more posting from me here. The polls in Heaven are open and the results are coming in. We're even going to compare it to astrology.

To Heaven, my demons! Fly! Fly! [Angel]

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
We're even going to compare it to astrology.

And that's suitable for Heaven? [Disappointed]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

I've been put through one twice by employers. I found the description of me in the definition to be 100% accurate. I was impressed for a few minutes then I realised that it was more or less a cut and paste job on the answers I had given to the questions - the test was reformatting my self-description and handing it back to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't both fun and useful - I love spending a few hours with other people talking about *ME* and it is interesting to see how your own self description differs from other people's.

Like most things the psychobabble industry gets its hands on it seems to have has turned into something that is 5 parts commerce, 3 parts social control and 2 parts cult. The actual words of the questions used in the tests and also the definitions of the styles and types are surrounded by jealously guarded copyrights and trademarks - if you post them on the web the trademark owners sue you. What they *say* is that it is a "professional psychometric instrument that should not be administered by a qualified practitioner" what they *mean* is "get off my cash cow".

Posted by logician (# 3266) on :

Quite true, ken. Another example of the same is EMDR, which they only allow people who have gone through their expensive training to do research on.

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
...You've been blinded by my science already....

Ah....I think not. (To blind me with science, you must first USE science, and you have signally failed to do so.)

Rossweisse // thinking it's time to hand it off to the flake population

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
...Like most things the psychobabble industry gets its hands on it seems to have has turned into something that is 5 parts commerce, 3 parts social control and 2 parts cult....

Oh, bravo, BRAVO!

[Not worthy!]

Rossweisse // I wish I'D said that

Posted by WorkInProgress (# 3597) on :

[note]Dearest Hell-hosts, this is posted here, as I do not feel that this would be appropriate in Heaven. My feelings are somewhat too strong for the 'fluffy-bunny' venue.[/note]

Jim, Rosseweisse, Logician and anyone else who's interested...

Wouldn't it be interesting to see if there is some link between the respondents to the two tests Jim's posted in Heaven? For example, due to their relative popularities, maybe the Capricorns aboard are also those from the ES quadrant? Maybe those poor people, who seem a tad under-represented, in the IN quadrant, are also those poor people who
a) are not quite sure how to fill in either poll
b) do not have the time to fill in polls
c) know that both these tests/parlour tricks are in fact only so much elephant-crap.

Just a thought, but, oh, the possibilities...

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