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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: I have overcome the world
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
John 16.30:
"These things I have spoken to you that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
So what does Jesus mean that He has overcome the world?
[ 19. June 2003, 18:03: Message edited by: Erin ]
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
It can be difficult to describe the world as evil without falling into some form of the dualist heresy which I utterly reject. I believe that God, Himself created evil(Isa45.7) so unless He's a savage despot it must be for a purpose beyond our comprehension which leads to the perfection of creation.
When Adam lived in the Garden of Eden, his love for God was incomplete because it wasn't a love from choice. It's only from a knowledge of good and evil that one can choose good. It's only from the activities of satan, who is a member of the heavenly court(Job) in our world and in ourselves that we can experience the need to go home as did the prodigal son.
It's for those reasons that we experience satan and the world as evil. They are the adversary, we must choose against in order to do "teshuva"(returning). One of the things Jesus came to accomplish was to destroy the power of evil by showing us total alignment to God, even unto death. One who lives that way cannot be hurt by evil, even though the body can b destroyed. I believe that is the sense in which Jesus overcame the world both for Himself and for anyone who has the faith and courage to follow Him.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
One of the things Jesus came to accomplish was to destroy the power of evil by showing us total alignment to God, even unto death.
I wonder how that worked.
It does seem as though by "the world" He meant evil.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In life and in death, Jesus certainly acted as if he had overcome the world. It is as if he had taken a step back and looked at the world from a completely new perspective. Perhaps it is an attitude of mind and will as much as anything else?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
The picture I have from this statement is that evil was more powerful before His coming, and less powerful after it. Or something like that.
Is that the idea you have?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Shibumi
Apprentice
# 3077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
One of the things Jesus came to accomplish was to destroy the power of evil by showing us total alignment to God, even unto death. One who lives that way cannot be hurt by evil, even though the body can b destroyed. I believe that is the sense in which Jesus overcame the world both for Himself and for anyone who has the faith and courage to follow Him.
By 'overcoming the world', I agree with what PaulTH says here. Jesus had been with the Father, had come down to earth, and destroyed the power of evil by dying for us on the cross and rising from the dead. He also 'overcame' the temptation of Satan and the potential pleasures and powers of the material world. When Jesus says this verse (which incidentally I have as 16:33) he was in the middle of summing up his time on earth and basically saying that he had done what he came to do.
Posts: 42 | From: Berkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What Shibumi said.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
I have just read the whole chapter. Jesus says about a woman being in pain when going through childbirth, but the pain being forgotten or put aside when the baby is born. It is about working through difficult and sometimes painful circumstances to enable you to get through to the other side.
To me, Jesus saing "I have overcome the world" makes me think about a member of the Trinity laying aside his godhood, and becoming human, doing things in a human rather than god-like way. Jesus was able to work it through, go through the struggles, the temptations, the difficulties of being human. He made it through to the otherside. He is the trailblazer.
I don't think it has much to do with the world being good OR bad. Just thinking about labour pains again... they are not good or bad, they are simply part of the process that we go through in order to have children. (The pain is a bit of a bummer though, and it ain't called 'labour' for nothing!)
It reminds me of 2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
So what does Jesus mean that He has overcome the world?
This ties in with John 12:31
quote:
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.
It also ties in with Luke 4:5-6. quote:
5Then the devil led him up and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And the devil said to him, ?To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please.
I assume that Satan acquired this power at the time of the fall, but the Bible doesn't explicitly say so.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I assume that Satan acquired this power at the time of the fall, but the Bible doesn't explicitly say so.
Nice quotes!
It seems to me that the Bible indicates a gradual aquisition of power on Satan's part. It doesn't say this directly, but statements such as that "darkness shall cover the earth" (Isaiah 60.2), and many references to the "enemy" of Israel "coming in like a flood" (Isaiah 59.19), give the impression of a gathering gloom. I would think that this gloom is the "darkness" that is referred to in John 1, which the "light" came to dispel.
It sounds like Tolkien to me. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
It sounds like Tolkien to me.
Or maybe CS Lewis?
Paul's take on the matter in Colossians 1;15 quote:
Having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross
suggests thinking something along the line of ,"He allowed the evil of a fallen world to dop its worst, and saw it fail." Incidentally, one possible interpretation of this verse suggests a novel understanding, that is, that the actual victory was won in Gethsemene, when Jesus irrevocably chose to go to the cross. The actual events of Good Friday were a revelation of a battle that had already been won. This would seem to put those powers and authorities within the soul/pshche/ spirit of the individual, rather than in the heavenlies. All in all, I think I would follow the traditional line, but it makes you think!
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
one possible interpretation of this verse suggests a novel understanding, that is, that the actual victory was won in Gethsemene, when Jesus irrevocably chose to go to the cross. The actual events of Good Friday were a revelation of a battle that had already been won.
Very interesting thought!
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
This would seem to put those powers and authorities within the soul/pshche/ spirit of the individual, rather than in the heavenlies.
This is also interesting. Isn't the idea that the contest with all the forces of hell was taking place inside the soul/psyche/spirit of Jesus? or isn't this what you mean?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Isn't the idea that the contest with all the forces of hell was taking place inside the soul/psyche/spirit of Jesus? or isn't this what you mean?
Well, yes, that was certainly the thought that occured to me. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) This would lead to some pretty original thinking about what exactly those forces were. Since, presumably, we can agree that Satan had no part in Jesus, this tends to suggest that the stuggle is between Jesus' desire in his spirit to obey the Father, and his natural human reluctance to undergo the cross. Perhaps what Paul is trying to get at is that the forces of evil have no real power unless we grant them that power by acquiescing whilst they use our human weakness to give body to that power - does that make sense? Oooh, my head hurts!
[UBB code tidied]
[ 11. September 2002, 08:26: Message edited by: babybear ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Since, presumably, we can agree that Satan had no part in Jesus, this tends to suggest that the stuggle is between Jesus' desire in his spirit to obey the Father, and his natural human reluctance to undergo the cross. Perhaps what Paul is trying to get at is that the forces of evil have no real power unless we grant them that power by acquiescing whilst they use our human weakness to give body to that power - does that make sense?
It makes sense to me. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
I agree that Satan had no part in Jesus. I wonder, however, if Satan somehow encouraged His natural human reluctance to undergo the cross. Interestingly, I have been taught that even the angels with Jesus shared that reluctance. Maybe Satan influenced them. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I agree that what you said is what Paul is trying to get at.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Following Freddy's comment:
quote:
I wonder, however, if Satan somehow encouraged His natural human reluctance to undergo the cross.
Absolutely.
After the temptation in the wilderness Satan changed his tactics from open confrontation to opportunism. Gethsemane does indeed seem to have provided that opportunity.
Jesus answered him, It is said, Do not put the Lord your God to the test. When the devil had finished every test, he departed from him until an opportune time. Luke 4:12,13
What I find interesting is that Jesus considers the final 'cup' of the Seder meal, the 'cup of suffering', to be the cup that is to cause him the most distress. So following Jolly Jape's line of thinking it is perfectly reasonable identify Gethsemane with the actual drinking of that cup.
[Jesus] said to them, I am deeply grieved, even to death; remain here, and stay awake with me. Matt 26:38
Could that 'cup' be a direct confrontation with Satan when one is a one's weakest and most vulnerable point? How many of us could survive that without cracking?
Could it be that one's weakest point is just as one is teetering on the edge of wholeheartedly doing God's will?
I'm quite excited by this new way of looking at the Gethsemane narrative.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Poet_of_Gold
Shipmate
# 2071
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Posted
Rv:3:21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rv:12:11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Just some matching verses to help you ponder.
Posts: 204 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Much of man's evil comes from his fear of death. Out of that fear comes the need to accumulate power and wealth in this world, to give life a meaning.
With His death and Resurrection, Jesus removed the fear from death--there is a way, through Him, to also be resurrected and live again in Heaven.
Sieg
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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