|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Hell: Do I have to share heaven with this guy?
|
AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
|
Posted
I've been sitting on this for a few weeks, wanting to rant but unable to find suitable words.
I have a guilty secret: every now and then, I take a twisted, perverse pleasure in looking over Jack Chick's web site. Do you remember coming across those little tracts when you were a kid? I was given a few at scripture class in school, by one of the ladies who went to the church I went to for Sunday School. They were compelling little things, and they still are, in their own whacky way.
But I can't handle this.. This is Chick's latest little masterpiece, and it left me quivering with rage. How can someone, in the name of Jesus Christ, create such poison?
If, by the grace of God, I come to his final banquet, do I get to choose who I sit next to?
I guess I should be praying for him, but please pray for me, because I can't, not yet.
[ 30. September 2005, 20:34: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
--------------------
Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
kentishmaid
Shipmate
# 4767
|
Posted
That has to be one of the most spiteful, propagandist, plain racist evangelist tools I've seen in a long time. While it may be true that there are groups out there who think like that, it is unfair to present them as wholly representative, and as for his portrait of Christ, well, words fail me. I'm disgusted.
--------------------
"Who'll be the lady, who'll be the lord, when we are ruled by the love of one another?"
Posts: 2063 | From: Huddersfield | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
thursday+
Shipmate
# 5264
|
Posted
I've never come across this. Is it just an Australian thing or have i just been fortunate?
I've looked at the other tracts. There are no words to describe the badness of this.
--------------------
Jesus did not rise from the dead and announce, "A Blessed Easter! I'm the Second Person of the Trinity!," then spend the remaining days until his Ascension instructing the apostles in rubrics.
Newman's Own.
Posts: 392 | From: home is in your head | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
If he's in Heaven then the other place has distinct attractions.
Vile, obscene and ... and ... no words to to adequately say what I want.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pānts*
Ship's underwear
# 4487
|
Posted
there are not words to describe how bad that is.
--------------------
I'm not here any more. Dial 999 to get me. (No. Please don't really. Bit you could PM me on my new number cos I never get PMs!)
Posts: 8380 | From: The Stables | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I feel sick. Heaven is where this hate-monger is not.
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
|
Posted
See, I know it's not my place to judge. There is a God, and I am not Him. I do hope, really I do, that everyone comes to the Resurrection.
But how do I recognise this as the work of someone who is trying, in their own broken way, to serve the same Lord I am trying to?
I really did recoil from this, this thing when I read it. It's the most evil thing I've seen in a long time.
--------------------
Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
|
Posted
Yes, it's appalling, but is it different in type to the kind of comments made by more than one American Christian leader in the aftermath of 9-11? For example, Franklin Graham: "We're not attacking Islam but Islam has attacked us. The God of Islam is not the same God. He's not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It's a different God, and I believe it is a very evil and wicked religion." In the NBC report, Graham said, "I don't believe this [Islam] is this wonderful, peaceful religion."
And when I said to an American colleague that this seemed like an odd way for an evangelist to proceed, he told me that I hated America and wouldn't talk to me for the next year...
--------------------
French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
thursday+
Shipmate
# 5264
|
Posted
There's a theory that everyone is trying to serve God, in his/her twisted way. So maybe this is just Jack Chick's defect, but everyone else (Paisley, Bin Laden, Hitler, and you and me, everyone) is trying to move towards the light, no matter how badly they may be doing it. And God will doubtless slowly bring them to the right path in the end. Pity him. Love the sinner. But really really hate the sin.
--------------------
Jesus did not rise from the dead and announce, "A Blessed Easter! I'm the Second Person of the Trinity!," then spend the remaining days until his Ascension instructing the apostles in rubrics.
Newman's Own.
Posts: 392 | From: home is in your head | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Halcyon Sailor
Shipmate
# 5270
|
Posted
Yikes... I don't know what disturbs me more, the racist plot or the disturbing last two panels. If this is the the Divine master plan, to quote Tori Amos, maybe next time I'll give a Judas a try.
Posts: 67 | From: Indiana, USA | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Huh. When I started a Chick thread in Hell someone moved it to Heaven.
Where does he get the bit about the Bible being banned in Palestine? Or even Muslims never having heard of Jesus?
If it really was true that many Americans believed crap like this about Palestinians then their government's unthinking support for Israeli oppression might be explained.
But I'd hate to think they were so ignorant.
There, that ought to keep this one in Hell a bit longer...
--------------------
Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
thursday+
Shipmate
# 5264
|
Posted
Never quote Tori Amos. Not even in jest. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Jesus did not rise from the dead and announce, "A Blessed Easter! I'm the Second Person of the Trinity!," then spend the remaining days until his Ascension instructing the apostles in rubrics.
Newman's Own.
Posts: 392 | From: home is in your head | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ponty'n'pop
Shipmate
# 5198
|
Posted
Anyone who knows their Koran at all knows about Jesus - albeit by his Islamic name of Isa. Just an extract (from The Family of Imran):
[3.59] Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
[3.84] Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
This Chick publication is one of the most obscene I've ever read.
Posts: 236 | From: South Wales | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Herminator
Shipmate
# 5250
|
Posted
Chick really is the pits, I wonder we are even allowed to mention him here! Is there no lower place?
But then, as a young Christian I even gave them away! I am to ashamed for words
.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
--------------------
"Wizards in trousers? Not in my university! It`s sissy. People“d laugh." said Ridcully
-Terry Pratchett: Soul Music
Posts: 83 | From: Ich bin ein Berliner! | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
Oookay-
Yes, Chick's stuff is cheesy and corny and cartoony and overblown and oversimplified and black-and-white where it's sometimes hard for me to see anything but shades of grey...
But I suppose you think there are no Muslim boys being raised to pretty much have the goal of modern jihad including suicide bombing?
(Hee- this might getcha)
quote:
Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following Multiple Choice test. (The events are actual cuts from past history. They actually happened. Do you remember?)
1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbitt
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
2. In 1979, the U.S.embassy in Iran was taken over by
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
4. In 1983, 304 people were killed when both the U.S. Marine barracks and the U.S. embassy in Beirut were blown up by
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindbergh
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
7. In 1988, 270 people, including 11 on the ground, where killed when Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
8. In 1993 the World TradeCenter was bombed the first time by
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
9. In 1996, nineteen U.S. servicemen were killed when the Khobar Towers in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, were destroyed from an explosion detonated by
a. Barbra Streisand
b. The boogieman
c. Darth Vader
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
10. In 1998, 224 people were killed when the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's woman problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
11. In 2000, seventeen U.S. sailors aboard the U.S.S. Cole were killed by an explosion from a small fiberglass boat loaded with high explosives detonated by
a. The ACLU
b. A 70 year-old woman on her way to her granddaughter's birthday party.
c. Martha Stewart
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
12. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Center and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
13. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
14. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by
a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
And, since the litany above was written, add the explosion aboard the French tanker in Yemen and the bombing of the night clubs on the island of Bali, Indonesia, at least.
Nope, I really don't see a pattern here, do you?
So, to ensure we Americans (or we Basic Plain Christians) never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us...
Airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning former Governors.
And Christians must lovingly stand by and watch people march into Hell without saying a word - because it's mean to disagree with people who are, as best we can tell, outside of the Lord?
AP, et al, is it ALL of that Chickytract y'all disagree with - or just the sarcastic tone?
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Janine, honey, let's not get into a 'who bombed whom?' argument. The USA will come off worst every time, believe me! What this evil sicko is doing in his 'tract' is to portray Islam - essentially a way of peace, and aggressive only when backed into a corner - as evil and damnable. Now after your posting I can fully believe that peacfulness is evil and damnable in your eyes, but the rest of us round here aren't quite so fucking stupid.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
|
Posted
for me it's the pure hatered and insensitivity in the chick tracts.
i've never seen one of these in real life thank god but what i have read of them on the net makes me want to cry.
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
thursday+
Shipmate
# 5264
|
Posted
I understood that Islam wasn't particularly a way of peace, in the sense that Christianity is, but it certainly isn't what Mr. Chick's cartoon portrays. He is showing people as evil, he is grotesquely simplifying both the complexities of theology and the mystery of redemption, and at the end of every fucking tract he is gloating over bad hell-related shit happening to people he doesn't like.
I am appalled. I am further appalled that this is clearly a popular "Christian" resource.
--------------------
Jesus did not rise from the dead and announce, "A Blessed Easter! I'm the Second Person of the Trinity!," then spend the remaining days until his Ascension instructing the apostles in rubrics.
Newman's Own.
Posts: 392 | From: home is in your head | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
No one said people haven't taken Christianity or Buddhism or any other religion and twisted it.
No one said my Muslim urologist or cab driver or professor or grocery clerk or student it gonna run around in a dynamite vest and detonator codpiece. Don't be the fuck silly.
(Did I toss that "fuck" in at the right place? ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) )
All I'm trying to say is - that I don't like Chickytracts in general - his theology is wonky IMO -
But so far here I see abhorrence and disagreement and gnashing of teeth that seems to me to be coming from a "how dare he say anything bad about Muslims" position. Please enlighten me if you have another good reason to dislike the tract, cause that one ain't good enough to weigh much.
Heh. Muslims being human, much like Cajuns and Dentists and Lutherans and Ship-o-Fools shipmates... There's plenty to say about the evil some of them do. Just like Protestants and Plumbers and Ship-o-Fools lurkers do evil.
Rather me not talk about it, pumpkin? Rather ol' Chick didn't?
[ 12. December 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: Janine ]
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
|
Posted
Janine, love ya, but your quoted quiz could be manipulated not too difficultly to illumine Christians as equally murderous. From the Crusades forward, there is a long, undistinguished list of appaling events in Christian history that are similarly horriffic.
Are suicide bombers being raised from the cradle in some parts of the Islamic world? Sure. Was America attacked on 09/11/01 by radical Islamic terrorists of Arab decent? Sure. Is Islam a religion of peace? Ideally, yes. In practice, though, obviously, not always. Same for Christianity.
Do some find the tract in question offensive? Sure, and there's a good case for why on a number of levels. Is there a grain of truth in it regarding suicide bombing? Of course. Personally, I don't like it as an evangelism tool, but that doesn't negate at least a portion of its scope.
Some of us believe in a physical Heaven, like I do. IMO, I'm pretty sure of one thing regarding Heaven, as well: it's either going to be very crowded, or it won't.
--------------------
"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
I had to edit to change "Muslins" to "Muslims".
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Oh Lord God of Mercy...
Y'all woulda jumped me for making some sort of disparaging remark about traditional Middle Eastern/Muslim dress...
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liam
Shipmate
# 4961
|
Posted
Janine, any of us could post a list longer than yours of atrocities committed by young white 'Christian' men, American ones if you like. It wouldn't justify labelling all Christians as ignorant bigots and misrepresenting their beliefs with outright lies.
Yes, young Muslims are raised to be suicide bombers, but not in the moral vaccuum depicted here. Suicide bombings are driven by utter utter desperation in the face of oppression, not just by religious fundamentalism. That doesn't justify them in the slightest, but to show the extremism without looking at the context that inspires it is utterly misleading.
EVERYTHING about this piece is wrong and evil. The facts are grossly distorted or just plain lies. It grossly simplifies an incredibly complex situation in a very one-sided way. It gives no sense of the context it seeks to depict and makes no attempt to see any perspective other than its own. Its theology is abhorrent and massively flawed. And it is utterly hateful and racist.
[ 12. December 2003, 15:55: Message edited by: Space Monkey ]
Posts: 138 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
Of course, TheRiv, dat's the point. Or one of them. See my post after Adeodatus'.
Oh- and to come out aginst Islam- I'm not even saying Chick did - I'm saying y'all say he did - is NOT a racist thing. You might say it's ethnic maybe. The Faithful come in all flavors, so found Malcom X.
I have to work way too hard to get two brain cells to line up simultaneously to discuss this stuff. Sorry I'm not up to Hellish intelligence standards...
Will prolly bow out now and let y'all all have an agreement-festival, one big circular handshake maybe...
[ 12. December 2003, 15:51: Message edited by: Janine ]
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
thursday+
Shipmate
# 5264
|
Posted
When I said, quote:
" He is showing people as evil, he is grotesquely simplifying both the complexities of theology and the mystery of redemption, and at the end of every fucking tract he is gloating over bad hell-related shit happening to people he doesn't like."
I wasn't actually referring to Muslims in any way. I was objecting to his overt glee over the damnation of evildoers, according to his podunk theology.
(PS. I would have said, "Don't be fuckingsilly," or even, "Don't be fucking stupid". But now I've heard it I actually prefer 'Don't be the fuck silly'. Can I use it sometime?)
--------------------
Jesus did not rise from the dead and announce, "A Blessed Easter! I'm the Second Person of the Trinity!," then spend the remaining days until his Ascension instructing the apostles in rubrics.
Newman's Own.
Posts: 392 | From: home is in your head | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
|
Posted
Janine, do really need to be told what is basically wrong with that thing? The misrepresentation, the lies, the hate literature within it? The refusal to recognise other human beings as human? The willing compliance with an agenda of propoganda against people who are not fundamentally dissimilar to yourself?
You're smarter than this.
--------------------
Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
<blush>
<looking down at bare toes scuffing black Loosyanna mud>
Chestertonian, I am so pleased it might be of use. Do credit the simple-minded Cajun who thought of it occasionally, OK?
<grin> One gets her immortality where one can.
AP, I KNOW the Chicky materials are insensitive hard wonky things. That's why I would never ever use them. Ever.
Except maybe as baaaaaad examples.
I just wonder what else reads as hard and insensitive and unenlightened these days...
Phrases like "I am the way, the truth..."; "No man comes to the Father but by me..."; "by me, if any man enter in...".
Y'know, all those horrid exclusionary statements some Palestine resident made 2,000 years ago.
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
thursday+
Shipmate
# 5264
|
Posted
There is this dilemma in liberal Christianity that we are saying, 'all faiths are equal, etc' but also 'this man was the one true Son of God'. Tricky.
I think it comes down to tolerance.
'Tolerance' does not mean 'you are just as right as I am'.
Tolerance means 'you are wrong, but I'll try to convince you, and not just kill you and raze your cities'.
Islam is false. That's a necessary part of being a Christian.
Muslims are not evil, just mistaken. That's another part.
Everybody is flawed. That's a third part.
--------------------
Jesus did not rise from the dead and announce, "A Blessed Easter! I'm the Second Person of the Trinity!," then spend the remaining days until his Ascension instructing the apostles in rubrics.
Newman's Own.
Posts: 392 | From: home is in your head | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
|
Posted
I think Janine has half a point. That scenes not that different to the one in the Chick tract happen in real life seems quite plausible to me: I think I've read stories not that different in Newsweek.
The problem is surely with any sentence that starts "All moslems are...", or "All Christians are..." for that matter. The Chick Tract "all moslems are terrorists" is absurd, but the "all moslems stand for love and peace" thing is a bit dumb too.
A lot of my clients are non-practising moslems. In an effort to make friends with one of them, I asked him if he wanted to see the latest Bond film with me. He looked quite shocked, and said it was far too violent, and that he preferred romances. A bit embarassing really...
--------------------
French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
personally i believe that after we die, we all, you, me, everyone, get a Stern Talking To from Someone.
and i think jack chick is going to have some very unpleasent moments during that discussion.
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
|
Posted
Its not just the muslims. Have you read the ones about Roman Catholicism?? Or the terrible tale of little Mildred (The Letter)?
I just can't imagine how this poisonous man can call himself a Christian
Nic
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jerry Boam
Shipmate
# 4551
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If it really was true that many Americans believed crap like this about... But I'd hate to think they were so ignorant.
[ 12. December 2003, 16:41: Message edited by: Jerry Boam ]
--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
Posts: 2165 | From: Miskatonic University | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Herminator
Shipmate
# 5250
|
Posted
But then, if we did not have Jack we wouldn“t have all those great parodies!
Posts: 83 | From: Ich bin ein Berliner! | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
|
Posted
Its not just the muslims. Have you read the ones about Roman Catholicism?? Or the terrible tale of little Mildred (The Letter)?
I just can't imagine how this poisonous man can call himself a Christian
Nic
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
|
Posted
A blindingly obvious point just hit me about just what I find so offensive and downright evil about the "Sky lighter" tract: it's the demonisation of "The Other".
A few years ago, John Howard won an election in Australia after a campaign that had a lot to do with refugees/asylum-seekers and "border protection". Much was made of asylum-seekers in leaky boats allegedly throwing their children overboard in an effort to attract the attention and intervention of the Australian Navy. Little mention was made of the details of to whom they were being thrown, and whether the ship was sinking at the time. Even less consideration was given to the fact that parents do not so endanger their children. The whole story was an attempt to dehumanise the asylum-seeker and allow us all to consider them as less than human, and certainly not welcome here. It was a dishonest campaign, unworthy of anyone who would call themselves Christian.
Chick plays the same cards here: parents, grand-parents, human beings that we know, DO NOT behave like this. Therefore these people are sub-human and we may rejoice that they are cast into the lake of fire. This is a blatant effort to dehumanise a whole race of people, arguably on the basis of some understandably desperate adult suicide-bombers, and, possibly some isolated cases of child abuse.
It's sick, and it is not recognisable as the work of the Kingdom of Heaven.
--------------------
Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
|
Posted
C'mon, Nic. 'Christian' is as gray a term as ever there was. Everyone can be a Christian these days.
--------------------
"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chestertonian:
Islam is false. That's a necessary part of being a Christian.
No, it's not. Lots of us manage to be Christians without thinking Islam is false.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
|
Posted
Point to ponder:
In many respects Chick is not fundamentally much different from the rest of us. Not one of us -- not one -- deserves even one glimpse of Heaven. Yet the same grace that applies to us also applies to Chick, distasteful to some of us as that may be. How dare we -- as those redeemed from the same Sin -- talk of him as being outside of God's grace, as if he had committed something unforgivable.
[The only unforgiveable sin is fucking up UBB code.]
[ 13. December 2003, 18:39: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
--------------------
"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
|
Posted
I think Chick's tracts are pretty horrible, but I can't wish him (or anyone) to be in Hell. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
... PS: I suppose we could do with God (in the form of the Giant, Light-Bulb-Headed Judge (tm) we see in Chick's tracts) giving Chick the "you're-off-to-Hell" speech he so often puts in those tracts -- and then, as Chick wails, God says, "... PSYCH! No, actually, you're forgiven, Jack, I just wanted to see the look on your face..."
[ 12. December 2003, 17:59: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by chestertonian:
Islam is false. That's a necessary part of being a Christian.
No, it's not. Lots of us manage to be Christians without thinking Islam is false.
If you believe Christianity to be true, how on earth can you NOT believe Islam to be false? They make some extremely contradictory claims, and at least one HAS to be wrong.
--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If you believe Christianity to be true, how on earth can you NOT believe Islam to be false? They make some extremely contradictory claims, and at least one HAS to be wrong.
Isn't that just revealing a lack of imagination?
No, I guess not. It might also be revealing a lack of humility. You can choose to believe in something with a leap of faith without knowing for certain. That means not knowing for certain that something contradictory is wrong, and it's possible to find no need to force a belief that it must be so.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If you believe Christianity to be true, how on earth can you NOT believe Islam to be false? They make some extremely contradictory claims, and at least one HAS to be wrong.
Isn't that just revealing a lack of imagination?
No, I guess not. It might also be revealing a lack of humility. You can choose to believe in something with a leap of faith without knowing for certain. That means not knowing for certain that something contradictory is wrong, and it's possible to find no need to force a belief that it must be so.
Well, 'faith' is what: belief w/out evidence. Faith doesn't seek to prove itself, by nature. So, a faith position inChristianity would include by default a lack of 'faith' in Islam. Wouldn't it?
--------------------
"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
|
Posted
The Riv, do you believe absolutely everything that has ever been associated with Christianity, or do you pick and choose? If you aren't a 100% literalist, why isn't it possible to apply the same practice on Islam in the radom elements that don't agree with what you believe? From my point of view, they're virtually identical, with differences of garnish-level significance.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
|
Posted
RooK, if you're going to believe, then believe. In other words, commit to it. Why go through all the trouble of having faith if you're going to say that "well, the next one might be just as good"? That's agnosticism, not Christianity.
--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
The point is that Christianity (and indeed Islam) commits one to a number of propositional beliefs. To take a fairly uncontroversial one, Christianity asserts that Christ died on the cross. Now Islam, IIRC, asserts that he didn't. A simulcra was crucified in Christ's stead.
Now either of these beliefs may be true but they cannot both be true as a matter of elementary logic.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that, except for certain core beliefs that we share with Islam, from a Christian perspective, it is in some respects wrong.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
My favorite Chick tract is The Death Cookie, which has Satan convincing the Catholic Church to be mysterious and teach transubstantiation in order to enslave everyone. He compares them to the Egyptians. It's great. The priest cackles, "If you don't obey us, we won't let you eat the Jesus Cookie anymore!!"
[ 12. December 2003, 19:39: Message edited by: Laura ]
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Halcyon Sailor
Shipmate
# 5270
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Callan:
The point is that Christianity (and indeed Islam) commits one to a number of propositional beliefs. To take a fairly uncontroversial one, Christianity asserts that Christ died on the cross. Now Islam, IIRC, asserts that he didn't. A simulcra was crucified in Christ's stead.
Now either of these beliefs may be true but they cannot both be true as a matter of elementary logic.
Jesus never said, "You have to be a Christian to be saved." In fact, I remember him saying, "Anyone who is not against me is for me."
Posts: 67 | From: Indiana, USA | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
|
Posted
OK, I admit to being fundamentally unable to really conceptualize a zealot mindset. Mea culpa.
It all just seems so arbitrary. If you believe in an all-power being, what's stopping it from having two simultaneous truths? Oh, right, your nifty magical book of truth. Hey, wait, don't they have one too?
Never mind. I give up. You're all freaks, every last one of you. I hope you all end up stuck in a very small, crowded afterlife together.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
OK, I admit to being fundamentally unable to really conceptualize a zealot mindset. Mea culpa.
It all just seems so arbitrary. If you believe in an all-power being, what's stopping it from having two simultaneous truths? Oh, right, your nifty magical book of truth. Hey, wait, don't they have one too?
Never mind. I give up. You're all freaks, every last one of you. I hope you all end up stuck in a very small, crowded afterlife together.
Dang, that is very small-minded of you.
--------------------
♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
Originally posted by Halcyon Sailor:
quote:
Jesus never said, "You have to be a Christian to be saved." In fact, I remember him saying, "Anyone who is not against me is for me."
Neither did I. I merely pointed out that it is not possible to believe that Christ was crucified and that Christ was not crucified.
On another note, whilst Laura has a point about the merits of the Death Cookie (or the Blessed Sacrament as we hell-bound crypto-papists insist on calling it) I feel I really must draw attention to the merits of "Why is Mary crying?" which has our Blessed Lady Mary, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven denouncing the veneration of Her Blessed Self in a manner not unreminiscent of the trials of the old bolsheviks during the purges of the 1930s. I half expected to start addressing God as Comrade Prosecutor and admit to conspiring with the Pope in conjunction with Trotsky and Wall Street.
May Mary, Mother of God pray for Mr Chick. I'm not sure that I can.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
OK, I admit to being fundamentally unable to really conceptualize a zealot mindset. Mea culpa.
It all just seems so arbitrary. If you believe in an all-power being, what's stopping it from having two simultaneous truths?
Please list two mutually exclusive statements that can be simultaneously true. Or better yet, I'll give you an example and you can explain to me how they both can be true:
1. Jesus was God Incarnate.
2. Jesus was not God Incarnate.
[ 12. December 2003, 20:38: Message edited by: Erin ]
--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
