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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The BBC - Now Springer!
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Well it seems to be high season for taking the p*** out of religion by gratuitously offensive means. Enter "Jerry Springer - the Opera" to be shown on the BBC on January 8th.
Here's a review for those who don't know what it's about ...
Theatre Review
This musical, notorious for containing over 8,000 expletives, depicts the characters of Jesus, Mary and God as self-centred decadents who give and receive extreme verbal abuse and a horrific series of blasphemies all in the name of comedy.
Even the BBC concedes that this intended broadcast, "pushes back the boundaries of taste and decency". The show's artistic director admits that it is a deliberate attack on good taste. Nevertheless, it is planned to transmit the programme without any cuts.
There is all the difference in the world between paying for a ticket to go and see a show in London and having such material available for public viewing on the screens of the national broadcaster.
The question here is whether there should be any boundaries when dealing with any significant religious figure in the media AND in particular, should Christians mobilise.
(If you wish to complain it's info@bbc.co.uk)
[ 01. March 2005, 12:56: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Believe it or not, it could be worse. You could have Jerry Springer's "talk show" on the BBC--and I presume you don't.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
I saw it at the National last year on a works jolly (before the present job). I sincerely wish I hadn't. It was lousy, not very funny, gratuitously offensive and musically challenged. Poor art often has no way of getting attention other than a juvenile descent to the outrageous. Quite frankly without it, this one wouldn't even have got on.
It depresses me more than I can say that the BBC will fall over itself to broadcast this sort of sewer material and make self-regarding and pompous statements about artistic freedom etc., when what is being broadcast is insulting and injurious to peoples religious sensibilities but becomes all coy and prim and guardian of the nations taste when a pro-life party wants to broadcast a election ad. they don't like. I bet they'll not be so anxious to pick up the rights to the Gibson movie. The most depressing thing about the whole thing is the sheer predictability of it.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
quote:
Father Gregory asked: The question here is whether there should be any boundaries when dealing with any significant religious figure in the media.
If you're referring to Jesus, Mary, and God, then no.
If you're referring to living persons, they should get the same legal protections afforded to other public figures -- no greater and no fewer.
The answer, Father Gregory, is if it sounds like it might offend you, don't watch it.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Was that your reaction to Timberlake's tacky mammary exposure? Surely the issue here is the accessibility of objectionable material ... it's dissemination as an instrument grossly to offend ... even to stir up ill will. There is a difference between paying to go to a show and public service broadcasting.
[ 31. December 2004, 23:44: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Apparently unlike Father Gregory's, my television has on OFF switch.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Unlike Fr Gregory, you can watch your television without paying for a Government licence which goes, in its entirety, to fund the public service broadcaster that is purchasing and proposing to show this stuff.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I don't like the 'You can always turn it off if you don't agree with it' argument.
That is a recipe for looking the other way and pretending it doesn't concern you.
Doesn't it?
Does it not concern us that someone is using the f word 2000+ times ans the c word nearly 300 times?
Does it not concern us that our Lord is being blashemed?
No, of course not. If I don't see it, it's not really happening.
So, if my wife is being verbally abused by a drunk in a street, perhaps I'll just pop into the Co-op so i don't have to see it and get all upset by it.
If an offensive programme is on and you know about it and do nothing, you might just as well watch it and consent to its content.
The stuff is wrong whether you watch it or not and therefore Christians have a right and a duty to complain.
I have emailed the BBC and Ofcom.
Just imagine the riots if Allah and Mohammed and Mohammed's mother were the subject of the production...
[ 01. January 2005, 10:41: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
I was wondering if it is legitimate4 for christians to become like the sikhs in Birmingham?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
No, violence is not right.
But I don't think we can just 'tut' quietly in the church tomorrow morning when we discuss it over post-service coffee.
Peaceful protest is always right.
Letter writing, etc.
Our voices must be heard but violence must never be a part of our protest.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
I've emailed the BBC, and got an acknowledgment.
Mudfrog - could you give me the email address for Ofcom? Thanks.
Nicodemia
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
[QB]Even the BBC concedes that this intended broadcast, "pushes back the boundaries of taste and decency". The show's artistic director admits that it is a deliberate attack on good taste. Nevertheless, it is planned to transmit the programme without any cuts.
The problem with "pusing back the boundaries" is that these becomr the new boundaries, so that in order to shock in the future you have to be even worse.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Paul Mason
Shipmate
# 7562
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Posted
On what basis can Christians require that non-Christians show reverence to Christian objects of reverence?
The only argument I consider valid is that they are in part paying for it. Unfortunately, it's neither practical nor desirable that tax-payers be allowed to dictate in detail where their money is spent.
I'm not defending the show, I've heard it's awful. Which is why I won't be watching.
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Now posting as LatePaul
Posts: 452 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
We saw Jerry Springer - The Opera and thought it extremely funny and, in a strange way, thought-provoking. The first act is set at Springer's show and is a hilarious take-off of his guests and himself, and the whole culture of such talk shows, the people who appear on them, and those of us who occasionally consume such things. The actor playing Springer at the time did this hilariously and the music is also great - opera pastiche and some musicals thrown in, and wonderfully sung.
The second act is set in Heaven and Hell and contains, as the warning said, "gratuitous religious imagery". It has a very Ship-like premise (IIRC, Satan calls God to Hell - no doubt The Spouse™ will be along in a minute to correct me) which, when it's contrasted with the Springer-show of the first act, actually makes you think about what we think God is like, and what we expect of him.
It was compared by one reviewer to Life of Brian and, if you are offended by religious satire, you won't like it; if you are offended by any sort of satire, you definitely won't like it; but if you are offended by satire, religious or otherwise, what are you doing reading this?
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Mason:
On what basis can Christians require that non-Christians show reverence to Christian objects of reverence?
The only argument I consider valid is that they are in part paying for it. Unfortunately, it's neither practical nor desirable that tax-payers be allowed to dictate in detail where their money is spent.
I'm not defending the show, I've heard it's awful. Which is why I won't be watching.
First, I haven't and won't see the show itself, so I won't comment. I have once or twice seen the Jerry Springer show, and found it revolting.
But as to non-Christians revering Christian objects of worship, I'm sorry -- I'm not following here.
If descriptions of the show posted (&/or linked) above are even remotely accurate, how is failing to trash "objects of reverence" equivalent to showing reverence to them?
It seems to me there's quite a large gaps between these stances. I don't accord any reverence to Kali. But out of respect for people who worhip in that tradition (and also, if I'm honest, out of a desire not to foment bloodshed), I also do not create large, publicly-funded productions designed to satirize, denigrate, or trash-talk Kali, either.
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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
Hang on a minute the BBC has a remit to public service broadcasting. Part of this means bringing into the public forum what might be otherwise left out.
If you are offended by the show complain about it's content not it's existence. Censorship is not just the authorities deciding what can and can't be seen or heard. It's also individuals or groups deciding what is or is not 'fit' for others to view.
If it were Allah being parodied I'm sure the Muslim's would complain and we would have sympathy for their point of view. But it's a point of view, nothing more. Let's have more debate and less huff.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
What I wonder is who is really being made fun of here? Obviously, the portrayals of Jesus, Mary, and God are absurd, gross, etc., but it seems that the joke is "This is your religion. This is your religion on Jerry Springer," that is, this is what taking Jerry Springer to the extreme looks like. The target is Jerry Springer, not Jesus . . . I think.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
It might be a point of view and an object for discussion for you LH but it isn't nor will it ever be for me. Lines are being drawn.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Isaac David
Accidental Awkwardox
# 4671
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Posted
The Black and White Minstrel Show (a 'light entertainment' musical show featuring blacked-up white men) was eventually dropped because it was considered racist (at least, I believe that was the reason). If it isn't acceptable any more to show overt racism on TV, why do we have to put up with anti-religious programmes? Which community is actually being served by this sort of material? And if the broadcasters consider it legitimate to offend religious sensibilities in the name of free speech and art, why only Christianity?
I think we have every reason to start complaining about this sort of vile rubbish on our screens. Those who argue that we don't have to watch TV that offends us could actually be conceding ground to those who would disenfranchise us altogether. Maybe in a few years time there won't be anything left on TV that I could watch with a good conscience.
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Isaac the Idiot
Forget philosophy. Read Borges.
Posts: 1280 | From: Middle Exile | Registered: Jun 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lapsed heathen:
If it were Allah being parodied I'm sure the Muslim's would complain and we would have sympathy for their point of view. But it's a point of view, nothing more. Let's have more debate and less huff.
Excepting that the bloody BBC wouldn't dare broadcast anything like it about Allah and Mohammed.
LH go and see the show before you tell us that my money should be spent broadcasting on public service channels this production, which is, I can tell you, not a contribution to a civilized debate so much as it is a revolting and offensive farago.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
You think that they would have learned something from "Popetown" wouldn't you? Maybe the serpentine forces of darkness are using the festive jollies to probe the Establishment's commitment to legislating against the incitement of religious hatred?
[ 01. January 2005, 15:49: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
You think that they would have learned something from "Popetown" wouldn't you? Maybe the serpentine forces of darkness are using the festive jollies to probe the Establishment's commitment to legislating against the incitement of religious hatred?
Yeah, it's almost enough to make me support that odious piece of legislation. I honestly don't think you can successfully legislate your way around these issues. Concepts such as freedom of expression and incitement to hatred (of pretty much any kind) are best preserved by consideration and the recognition that if you go around pissing on other people and their concerns, the result is often a backlash.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
It's not an anti-religious show! It's an anti-trailer-trash show. Perhaps we should complain on behalf of the viewers and participants in the real Springer show, as it is them that are being parodied.
To the extent that it is religious satire, perhaps we should complain on behalf of those who hold the beliefs that are parodied - in the first act, the belief that "everyone owes me a living, I shouldn't be accountable for my actions" is parodied, in the second, the idea that "God owes me a living, I shouldn't be accountable for my actions".
If you haven't seen it, you really should. I haven't met anyone that's been offended by it. I know some people haven't found it as hilarious as we did - but the reactions have either been "funny, hits the mark, gets you thinking about belief systems" or "mildly amusing, not my cup of tea, but not a major piece of blasphemy".
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I am now attempting to get the mosques involved. I have contacts. Sadly (for Christians that is) I think that that will be far more effective. I have some contacts to follow up.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
Father Gregory, have you seen the show? Have you read a script? I really think you will find you are barking up the wrong tree.
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
If you haven't seen it, you really should. I haven't met anyone that's been offended by it. I know some people haven't found it as hilarious as we did - but the reactions have either been "funny, hits the mark, gets you thinking about belief systems" or "mildly amusing, not my cup of tea, but not a major piece of blasphemy".
Read my posts passim. I for one disagree entirely with you and I resent my money being spent by my public service broadcaster on gratuitously offensive crap.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Wuff wuff. I can read transcripts and review summaries. Portraying God as a vindictive old fart crying into his cups about his responsibilities only has one interpretation in my view. NO context can justify that in my book when it is presented as humour ... even satitirical humour directed at those who might believe he is like that ... what over dubious saving grace could there be? No, I think it's just piss taking of the grossest form.
[ 01. January 2005, 16:13: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Isaac David
Accidental Awkwardox
# 4671
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Posted
According to one of the reviews linked to above, the show contains quote:
tap-dancing Ku Klux Klan members, a nappy wearing Jesus, and clones of Jerry Springer all singing “This Is My Jerry Springer Moment”.
Nuff said?
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Isaac the Idiot
Forget philosophy. Read Borges.
Posts: 1280 | From: Middle Exile | Registered: Jun 2003
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Paul Mason
Shipmate
# 7562
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Posted
Foolhearty,
Maybe 'reverence' doesn't work semantically for you but the principle remains - you're asking someone to treat as a sacred cow something they themselves don't see as sacred. The problem is that to the outsider the 'cow' can seem rather arbitrary.
I mean would you object to the Dairylea adverts - the ones that show animated cows doing all sorts of bizarre and non-cow-like things - on behalf of those Hindus who hold them as sacred?
Isaac,
The difference between race and religion is that one can choose one's religion but not one's race. Also religion is, in part, about holding certain ideas. Ridiculing someone for their ideas may be impolite but I think it's not the same as ridiculing someone for their race. Indeed ridiculing what one believes to be ridiculous ideas is an important freedom.
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Now posting as LatePaul
Posts: 452 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Isaac David:
According to one of the reviews linked to above, the show contains quote:
tap-dancing Ku Klux Klan members, a nappy wearing Jesus, and clones of Jerry Springer all singing “This Is My Jerry Springer Moment”.
Nuff said?
Yep, it's funny.
Like I said, it's a satire on the kind of people who watch/take part in Jerry Springer (including the Confederate Flag brigade).
Just out of interest, do you think Jesus didn't wear nappies? And don't you think the loincloth image begs a little humour?
And Father Gregory, do you think no-one at the time suggested that might be what happened to Mary???
It's satire. It makes fun of people who think everything is someone else's fault. End of story. Except that anyone who thinks it's a serious attempt at blasphemy is going to end up looking Very Foolish. Remember what happened to people who tried to get Life of Brian banned? And that was actually about religion. This just uses a well-known story, which happens to be religious, as a plot device to make some generalisations about human beings and their poor motivations.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Chukovsky
Offence is added to offence. The point is that we are NOT at that time ... nor would the Jews (or Christians) ever have believed such an appalling thing, (Mary being raped by an angel that is). I am utterly speechless.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Mason:
Foolhearty,
Maybe 'reverence' doesn't work semantically for you but the principle remains - you're asking someone to treat as a sacred cow something they themselves don't see as sacred. The problem is that to the outsider the 'cow' can seem rather arbitrary.
I mean would you object to the Dairylea adverts - the ones that show animated cows doing all sorts of bizarre and non-cow-like things - on behalf of those Hindus who hold them as sacred?
<snip>
Paul, I think I’m having trouble with more than semantics.
First, an advertisement is a different kettle of fish (or cows) than a full-scale operatic performance; in the US, at least, ads are paid for with private money, not public. The intent of advertising is to sell products; the intent of operatic performances is to entertain.
The performance under discussion apparently attempts to entertain by satirizing a belief system.
I know little about Hindu religious belief/practice; but I would probably not object to cavorting cows on my own behalf (I haven’t seen these adverts; I don’t own a television). Such images do not violate my personal religious beliefs/practice.
If, however, my Hindu neighbors persuaded me that showing acrobatic bovines outrages Hindu precepts in an offensive way, I might object. I would do so not on the grounds that the cows are sacred to me, but on the grounds that ridiculing my neighbors’ religion violates Christian practice (we're meant to love our neighbors, not humilate or demean them) and has in addition potential for disturbing the civic peace.
Bottom line question: Can satire, however paid for and whoever presented by, ever be done out of love?
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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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Rex Monday
None but a blockhead
# 2569
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Posted
I'm unclear whether Father Gregory wants a ban on all offensive broadcast material, just stuff that offends him, or stuff that fails some test of offensiveness.
Banning all offensive material would run entirely contrary to the BBC's public service remit. Satire is almost always offensive, because it is disrespectful of someone or something that expects respect - and that's offensive. It's also very useful: I think the Brass Eye 'Cake' programme did more to illuminate the debate on illegal drugs than any statement coming out of the Home Office in the past twenty years. And as for his paedophilia piece - should that have been banned? It was certainly very offensive. It was also very, very good.
Banning material offensive to Father Gregory would be an interesting exercise. It'd certainly keep him out of trouble, as he'd have to view everything on several hundred channels before transmission. Even if he wants to make the ban BBC only, then there are something like eight TV channels - and goodness knows how many radio stations - to attend to. Perhaps he'd prefer the US system, where a couple of organised people can manipulate the system to bring down massive fines on any programme they don't happen to like. In a culture where s flash of nipple is considered very harmful (and oddly, people getting shot is not), it can lead to very pallid television indeed and the protection of embedded interests.
As for the test of offensiveness - good luck finding one. FG objects strongly to the depiction of God as a drunken sot having problems with his responsibilities: would he also find offensive the story of the Jews in a concentration camp convening a court and solemnly finding God guilty of heinous crimes - and then saying the morning prayer? Would he recommend a ban on a programme that covered the scholarly textual analysis of the Quran, an activity that many Moslems find quite as offensively blasphemous as anything Father Gregory can imagine?
I warmly congratulate the BBC on having the testicles to broadcast what is a very successful and pungent commentary on modern society. I wasn't going to watch it (I dislike Springer a great deal, and opera is second only to washing the dishes in activities I would rather see removed from the universe), but now feel I should.
Thanks for bringing it up.
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I am largely against organised religion, which is why I am so fond of the C of E.
Posts: 514 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: Mar 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
If it really bothers you, then you should send out a mass email requesting that everyone who reads it spam everyone they know with a copy of your whinge. That ought to take care of things.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Apparently unlike Father Gregory's, my television has on OFF switch.
Mine doesn't! I am forced, Clockwork-orange-like, to watch everything they put out! It's horrifying! Aaaaaaaah! I even have to go see things on or off-Broadway I object to in the same manner!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Apparently unlike Father Gregory's, my television has on OFF switch.
Mine doesn't! I am forced, Clockwork-orange-like, to watch everything they put out! It's horrifying! Aaaaaaaah! I even have to go see things on or off-Broadway I object to in the same manner!
Well, when you've seen the opera, could you give us am objctive, sane opinion of it hon?
So far all I've seen is polemic on both sides.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Almost anything as far as I am concerned is fair game ... but not things people will live and die for.
Let's say that some jerk does a satire in which Mother Theresa of Calcutta is portrayed as a coke snorting pimping whore who only did nice things for poor people to rake in the money to fund her real nefarious activities. Let's say the name is changed slightly (like cousin Brian) to make it alright. This brings things into sharper focus because it is someone who has lived on earth within the lifetime of many.
Yes, I do believe in self restraint and not propagandising with plain falsehood ... even when it is dressed up as entertainment.
Finally if this was only me then you could have taken me out at dawn and had me shot or put in a secure institution ... that's fine. But, it isn't only me as you will soon discover.
I am moving into Hell teritory now so I will pull back ... but not before this parting shot.
I can understand why many Muslims despise Christianity (as they find it today). Don't kid yourselves.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Apparently unlike Father Gregory's, my television has on OFF switch.
Mine doesn't! I am forced, Clockwork-orange-like, to watch everything they put out! It's horrifying! Aaaaaaaah! I even have to go see things on or off-Broadway I object to in the same manner!
You've missed the point. In the land of the free and the home of the brave, your owning a TV capable if receiving transmissions doesn't require you to pay a licence that is used, in its entirety, to fund this stuff, off switch or no off switch. There'es something about taxation and representation rattling around in my head...
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Almost anything as far as I am concerned is fair game ... but not things people will live and die for.
So are you saying that almost anything is fair game as long as nobody takes it seriously? That doesn't leave much. Personally, I refuse to live or die for anything that is so fragile as to be disrupted by satire, even tasteless satire.
quote:
I can understand why many Muslims despise Christianity (as they find it today). Don't kid yourselves.
Why (in the context of this thread)? Is the production aimed at Islam? Is it produced by Christians? Your statement looks like nothing more than an gratuitous invokation of interreligious hatred in order to dramatize your complaint, so I'm sure I have misunderstood. Please explain.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I want the Church to offer positive Christian images and clear statements of the faith. I do not want the Church to try to use means to prevent the speaking or airing or aria-ing of negative images and comments.
If it's true, this stuff that claims my allegiance, it will look after itself and doesn't need to be bolstered by restrictions on broadcasters or blasphemy laws. If God can use only love, and not ever power or coercion to bring about God's purposes, then we who claim faith in the God of love should set our standards no lower.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
In the land of the free and the home of the brave, your owning a TV capable if receiving transmissions doesn't require you to pay a licence that is used, in its entirety, to fund this stuff, off switch or no off switch. There'es something about taxation and representation rattling around in my head...
Surely you have representative democracy in the UK. Because that's all the taxation and representation thing was about: people had to pay taxes without being represented in the government levying them.
Here in the land of the free and the home of the brave lots of my tax money goes to support US military operations, something that makes me feel a bit sick when I really think about it. So I vote for people who would change US foreign policy, I give money to an organization working toward this objective, and I write to my representatives in government. But I accept the facts that I am in the minority and that it is in the very nature of things that I don't get my way all the time.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
There'es something about taxation and representation rattling around in my head...
As one entitled to participate in the election of the body with the necessary authority to renew the BBC charter, I sympathise with your unspecified disenfranchisement.
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Manda
Shipmate
# 6028
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Posted
I got an e-mail from an organisation I belong to asking me to write and object to this.
But wouldn't it be a more effective sign if people just didn't watch it and it got rubbish viewing figures
Though I haven't seen it, so haven't formed a proper opinion of it
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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself
Posts: 1137 | From: Back in little old Wiltshire | Registered: May 2004
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Demas*
Shipmate
# 7147
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Posted
I would prefer to live in a country where my faith is tested by mocking television shows than one where my faith is tested by someone else's beliefs being enforced by the State.
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Hamburger (note beetroot, pineapple, bacon and egg)
Posts: 543 | Registered: May 2004
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
quote:
Father Gregory wrote: Almost anything as far as I am concerned is fair game ... but not things people will live and die for.
There went M*A*S*H, The Producers, and Life of Brian. In the interest of consistency, I'm sure Father Gregory would be equally agitated about a vicious satirical piece depicting George Bush as a murderous, blood-thirsty cowboy, given that a thousand American soldiers thought it was a cause worth dying for.
quote:
Let's say that some jerk does a satire in which Mother Theresa of Calcutta is portrayed as a coke snorting pimping whore who only did nice things for poor people to rake in the money to fund her real nefarious activities.
OK, let's -- especially since Christopher Hitchens has already come pretty close in his book The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice. The response shouldn't be for the government to ban the publication of the book. The response is for her supporters to publicize her innumerable good works. The antidote to offensive speech isn't government suppression. It's counter-speech.
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Yes, I do believe in self restraint and not propagandising with plain falsehood ... even when it is dressed up as entertainment.
The operative word being self-restraint, not government restraint.
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But, it isn't only me as you will soon discover.
Ooooooooh. That's rather ominously butch, in a Robert DeNiro "I hear things" kind of way.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Let's say that some jerk does a satire in which Mother Theresa of Calcutta is portrayed as a coke snorting pimping whore who only did nice things for poor people to rake in the money to fund her real nefarious activities. Let's say the name is changed slightly (like cousin Brian) to make it alright. This brings things into sharper focus because it is someone who has lived on earth within the lifetime of many.
Question: Is the goal of this hypothetical satire to make fun of Mother Teresa or to make fun of the kind of environment where such a portrayal would make a twisted kind of sense?
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
Trisaqion;
quote:
LH go and see the show before you tell us that my money should be spent broadcasting on public service channels this production, which is, I can tell you, not a contribution to a civilized debate so much as it is a revolting and offensive farago.
I don't disagree, if that's the opinion you formed of the show, as I haven't seen it. However if you came to this opinion by seeing the show are not others also entitled to form their opinion in the same way, rather than having you decide for them. End of the day, it's the producers and writers who will look foolish not the subject they hoped to parody.
F.G.;
quote:
It might be a point of view and an object for discussion for you LH but it isn't nor will it ever be for me.
Ahh the old 'never never never' augment. I believe Dr. Ian P. has the franchise on that one.
Again F.G.;
quote:
Almost anything as far as I am concerned is fair game ... but not things people will live and die for.
But these are the things that matter, why not examin them more than the things that we would compromise on. Or do you think that some ideas issues or beliefs are beond question? Who decides which things get special exemption from having tomatoes thrown?
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Dear Chukovsky
Offence is added to offence. The point is that we are NOT at that time ... nor would the Jews (or Christians) ever have believed such an appalling thing, (Mary being raped by an angel that is). I am utterly speechless.
Would 'seduced by a Roman soldier' do? Does the name 'Panthera' ring any bells, Freg?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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