Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
You would choose a person over Our Lord???
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
-103
quote:People have been flogging relics on ebay for years, so I doubt they'll care about this.
Originally posted by Billfrid:
Or, you can go through the complaints procedure to ebay - they are very strict about what items can be sold and I'm sure would pull this one off if enough transsubstantiationists (?) complained.
I'm going to complain now...
quote:You're joking, right?
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
I don't understand what the problem is.
quote:No.
You're joking, right?
quote:So, assuming it were bought by a "Black Magician", are you saying God couldn't turn the host back into just a wafer?
Originally posted by Thurible:
It's been sold for $2,000. Hopefully, it's been bought by someone who has some respect for the Blessed Sacrament and will consume It, rather than someone who wants It a) as a "great piece of history" or, worse, b) a Black Magician.
quote:, Ken asks.
how are they ever going to know
quote:I think there's a difference between going into a place of worship and behaving in a way that is offensive to the faith of the place you're in, and selling something that some people consider sacred. I can see why people would get upset about the guy deliberately getting an extra wafer with the intention one day of flogging it. Personally I wouldn't rate it too high on the scale of bad-things-that-happen, though.
Even if you don't believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ at the consecration, Catholics do. I would have thought that it was a matter of elementary politeness, therefore, not to nick hosts and flog them on e-bay.
Like not getting your hip flask out in a Mosque or wearing your shoes in a Buddhist Temple or wandering around a synagogue without your head covered. It is a matter of respecting other people's beliefs. Why is that too hard for you Cavey? Or does the Icon of true twenty-first century religion, the almighty $, blind you to the possibility that other people's faiths are worth respecting.
quote:Or a black magician who intended to desecrate it.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
I presume the person who bought it was a devout Catholic (either that or a crazy person).
quote:Not neccesarily. I have been known on occasion not to eat the wafer immediately, but take it back to my seat with me.
Originally posted by Ariel:
As far as I know you have to take it in front of the priest and they watch you to make sure you do.
quote:If this person is truly selling a consecrated Host, he is selling the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
I think there's a difference between going into a place of worship and behaving in a way that is offensive to the faith of the place you're in, and selling something that some people consider sacred. I can see why people would get upset about the guy deliberately getting an extra wafer with the intention one day of flogging it. Personally I wouldn't rate it too high on the scale of bad-things-that-happen, though.
quote:The one occasion when my mind was elsewhere and I'd started back to my seat, I got called back before I'd gone one pace, asked if I was really a Catholic, and told to take it there and then in front of the priest.
Originally posted by Pânts:
Not neccesarily. I have been known on occasion not to eat the wafer immediately, but take it back to my seat with me.
quote:That apparently is what you believe. The seller could be an atheist who believes (s)he's selling a stale cracker. It seems like (s)he committed a form of fraud, yes, in order to obtain the cracker, but not an enforceable form of fraud really.
Originally posted by rosamundi:
If this person is truly selling a consecrated Host, he is selling the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.
quote:Taking a consecrated host away from a Catholic Mass is inseperable from going into a place of worship and behaving in a way that is offensive to the faith of the place you're in. Trust me. It's up there with buggering the Pope.
I think there's a difference between going into a place of worship and behaving in a way that is offensive to the faith of the place you're in, and selling something that some people consider sacred. I can see why people would get upset about the guy deliberately getting an extra wafer with the intention one day of flogging it. Personally I wouldn't rate it too high on the scale of bad-things-that-happen, though.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:MadGeo,there is no "apparently" about what I believe. It doesn't matter what the seller believes - they went to a Catholic Mass and took a consecrated host. Therefore, they took the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. That's a bit more than "being a disrespectful asshole," they are risking their immortal soul.
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
That apparently is what you believe. The seller could be an atheist who believes (s)he's selling a stale cracker. It seems like (s)he committed a form of fraud, yes, in order to obtain the cracker, but not an enforceable form of fraud really.
Yes, (s)he is a disrespectful asshole to do this. But (s)he's a clever one.
quote:What does this mean?
Or a black magician who intended to desecrate it.
quote:What sort of Jesus do you believe in who would make his soul and divinity so readily accessible to misuse by nasty unbelievers? Even when he came in the flesh and was crucified, I don't think his soul and divinity were ever seriously at risk. I think he's capable of looking after himself.
If this person is truly selling a consecrated Host, he is selling the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.
That comes pretty high up the scale of bad-things-that-happen, if you ask me.
quote:What about the first one he took and ate? Was that sacriligeous, him not even being a Christian, let alone Catholic? What if I had some, being a Christian but not Catholic, would that be sacriligeous? I'd be pretty offended if it was.
By going to a Catholic Mass, as a non-Catholic, and taking a consecrated host and not consuming it, he has committed sacrilege. Selling it on Ebay merely adds to the blasphemy.
quote:And yet you feel qualified to make pronouncements about it. What does this tell you?
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Firstly, I still don't know what you mean by desecrating a communion wafer, or 'the host', or the body and blood of our Lord, or whatever you prefer to call it.
quote:Maybe the kind of Jesus who, as you say:
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
What sort of Jesus do you believe in who would make his soul and divinity so readily accessible to misuse by nasty unbelievers?
quote:
came in the flesh and was crucified
quote:No one is claiming that stealing a bit of consecrated bread risks the divinity of Jesus. It doesn't undo the work of atonement and rewind redemption.
I don't think his soul and divinity were ever seriously at risk.
quote:Well, I'd say black magic is more like superstition than Christianity. But if you can't be arsed to do some googling and find out what some people would like to do with consecrated hosts, don't expect me to do it for you. That you have a hard time getting it speaks only about you, not about the existence of such people.
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Hate to tell you this, MT, but I am really trying hard to get the whole "black magician" thing too. That just makes this whole thing seem more and more like superstition rather than Christianity.
quote:It appears that 'what the problem is' has something to do with Catholic theology which I just don't get.
I don't understand what the problem is.
quote:I didn't mean that someone who believes that the 'consecrated host' is sacred and is concerned about people disrespecting it is crazy. Rather that anyone who believed in God yet thought they could make a significant stand against him with some religious artifact, and indeed would want to pay lots of money to do it, would be crazy.
Anyone who genuinely believes in God and that a bit of wafer is sacred and they can pay $2000 dollars for it and somehow do something nasty with it is even crazier.
quote:I've been accused of worse.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Mousethief, you're being deliberately obtuse.
quote:Well said.
Originally posted by Calindreams:
Maybe his soul is not in immortal danger. Some people believe it is. Apparently he doesn't. We may be personally outraged by what he is doing. But I can't believe that we ought to expect or demand the respect of our Christian beliefs from other people. We have to lead by example. Not by banning the sale of this item. Of course we have rights to our won religion and that the law should safeguard us from people who incite hated against us or discriminate us for what we believe. But these rights are not in the same category as other basic human rights.
quote:I guess I must be lower down the candle than I thought. I would rather risk someone nicking the host - yes, and even flogging it on ebay - than risk someone being hurt, upset and embarrassed to the extent they wouldn't return to that church. Bluntly, if it comes to a choice between desecrating Christ in the host, and someone being grabbed and yelled at by a minister of the church during a service, I choose the former. God can take care of himself; people are more vulnerable.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
The First time I ever was a Eucharistic minister a lady walked past me with the host still in her hand, I quickly grabbed her shoulder and told her that she had to eat it immediatly. She looked at me as if I was crazy and I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!
She probably will never come to my church again because of that but to Catholics it is INCREDIBLY important that somebody doesn't desecrate that Body of Christ. It is something so serious we just can't risk it!
quote:You would choose a person over Our Lord???
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:I guess I must be lower down the candle than I thought. I would rather risk someone nicking the host - yes, and even flogging it on ebay - than risk someone being hurt, upset and embarrassed to the extent they wouldn't return to that church. Bluntly, if it comes to a choice between desecrating Christ in the host, and someone being grabbed and yelled at by a minister of the church during a service, I choose the former. God can take care of himself; people are more vulnerable.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
The First time I ever was a Eucharistic minister a lady walked past me with the host still in her hand, I quickly grabbed her shoulder and told her that she had to eat it immediatly. She looked at me as if I was crazy and I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!
She probably will never come to my church again because of that but to Catholics it is INCREDIBLY important that somebody doesn't desecrate that Body of Christ. It is something so serious we just can't risk it!
Peronel
quote:Why not? After all, he did.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
You would choose a person over Our Lord???
-103
quote:Man, you guys must really care about this stuff if you'd be prepared to pay $2000 for it.
It's entirely possible it was purchased by a devout Catholic, not for superstitious reasons or because of bad theology, but to ensure that it would be treated reverently and properly from here on out - rather than being treated like a collectible, or worse.
quote:I hear they give it out for free. Better make sure you're not at 103's church though, if you want to keep it as a souvenir.
You can buy the body, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ for $2000? That is such a good price.
quote:Well, of course we care deeply about "this stuff," at the moment of consecration, the Host becomes our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Kind of important, really, and not to be sold on Ebay.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Man, you guys must really care about this stuff if you'd be prepared to pay $2000 for it.
quote:He did.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:You would choose a person over Our Lord???
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:I guess I must be lower down the candle than I thought. I would rather risk someone nicking the host - yes, and even flogging it on ebay - than risk someone being hurt, upset and embarrassed to the extent they wouldn't return to that church. Bluntly, if it comes to a choice between desecrating Christ in the host, and someone being grabbed and yelled at by a minister of the church during a service, I choose the former. God can take care of himself; people are more vulnerable.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
The First time I ever was a Eucharistic minister a lady walked past me with the host still in her hand, I quickly grabbed her shoulder and told her that she had to eat it immediatly. She looked at me as if I was crazy and I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!
She probably will never come to my church again because of that but to Catholics it is INCREDIBLY important that somebody doesn't desecrate that Body of Christ. It is something so serious we just can't risk it!
Peronel
-103
quote:It is not permitted for a non-Catholic to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, unless under certain very specific conditions. I am not sure whether it would be officially termed sacrilege or not.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
By the way, would I be committing sacrilege if I, as a non-Catholic Christian, took Mass at a Catholic church?
quote:Dunno, actually.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Presumably it wouldn't be Blasphemous Sacrilege, though?
quote:I didn't yell - I hissed. It was necessary because she was walking quite quickly and I panicked on my first time as Eucharistic Minister. I told my parish priest and he said that he saw and it was exactly what I should've done. I had remembered what he told me to do from the Eucharistic Minister Instruction Lessons! If you don't like it you can take it up with my parish priest. He said that he didn't want anybody taking the host away with them and it was OUR DUTY as Eucharistic Ministers to make sure that it doesn't happen and to watch them consume it!
Originally posted by Sienna:
103, Jesus can take care of himself, and is more than capable of defending Himself against desecration, intentional or accidental. The reason for respect of the Precious Body is for our benefit, not His. So the sanctimonious drama about "choosing a person over Our Lord" is more than a little bit over the top.
Was it necessary to grab her and yell, publicly embarrassing her? Tell me, as a Eucharistic Minister, do you not see that you have some duty to those receiving the Eucharist, namely, treating them with respect? You said yourself she probably won't come back to your church. I wonder whether that's the result Christ would have wished for.
quote:I assume you're implying that my previous post was disrespectful. Let's look at it.
Hey Caveman, there's this thing called "respect"
quote:An expression of surprise and interest at someone else's strength of belief. Hardly disrespectful; complimentary, maybe.
Man, you guys must really care about this stuff if you'd be prepared to pay $2000 for it.
quote:Well, it's true.
I hear they give it out for free.
quote:Personally I find it disrespectful, not to say offensive, that 103 would act in the way he described in the name of Christ. I'm sure he's big enough to take a bit of mild humour at his expense for it. Let him say what he likes about me.
Better make sure you're not at 103's church though, if you want to keep it as a souvenir.
quote:I'm not saying that such people don't exist. But why should we give a damn what they think they're doing? Why does it matter who bought it? The fact that both you and Thurible brought it up, as well as a lot of the other charged rhetoric leads me to wonder if a bit of bread is being treated as an object of worship, which is a more serious problem, IMO, than some git selling it on EBay.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:Well, I'd say black magic is more like superstition than Christianity. But if you can't be arsed to do some googling and find out what some people would like to do with consecrated hosts, don't expect me to do it for you. That you have a hard time getting it speaks only about you, not about the existence of such people.
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Hate to tell you this, MT, but I am really trying hard to get the whole "black magician" thing too. That just makes this whole thing seem more and more like superstition rather than Christianity.
quote:I'm not having a go at any of the people here, who after all don't make the rules, but personally I find this offensive.
It is not permitted for a non-Catholic to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, unless under certain very specific conditions.
quote:Yes, you did, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:I didn't yell - I hissed. It was necessary because she was walking quite quickly and I panicked on my first time as Eucharistic Minister. I told my parish priest and he said that he saw and it was exactly what I should've done. I had remembered what he told me to do from the Eucharistic Minister Instruction Lessons! If you don't like it you can take it up with my parish priest. He said that he didn't want anybody taking the host away with them and it was OUR DUTY as Eucharistic Ministers to make sure that it doesn't happen and to watch them consume it!
Originally posted by Sienna:
103, Jesus can take care of himself, and is more than capable of defending Himself against desecration, intentional or accidental. The reason for respect of the Precious Body is for our benefit, not His. So the sanctimonious drama about "choosing a person over Our Lord" is more than a little bit over the top.
Was it necessary to grab her and yell, publicly embarrassing her? Tell me, as a Eucharistic Minister, do you not see that you have some duty to those receiving the Eucharist, namely, treating them with respect? You said yourself she probably won't come back to your church. I wonder whether that's the result Christ would have wished for.
It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
quote:You can be irreverent all you want with things YOU think are sacred. When you start pissing on things you DO NOT think are sacred, but other people do, you are being disrespectful.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Personally I'm perfectly happy to be irreverent about things which are sacred to me because I don't see that my irreverence diminishes their sacredness.
quote:Why?
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:I'm not having a go at any of the people here, who after all don't make the rules, but personally I find this offensive.
It is not permitted for a non-Catholic to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, unless under certain very specific conditions.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:I'm not having a go at any of the people here, who after all don't make the rules, but personally I find this offensive.
It is not permitted for a non-Catholic to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, unless under certain very specific conditions.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:There is at least one, if not several, threads in Dead Horses on this topic. However, I will say this - the Eucharist is a sign of unity. As we are not united, it is not appropriate for us to share a sign of unity.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:I'm not having a go at any of the people here, who after all don't make the rules, but personally I find this offensive.
It is not permitted for a non-Catholic to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, unless under certain very specific conditions.
quote:If it were just a "bit of bread" then it wouldn't matter in the least. But according to the Catholic Church's teachings, it's not just a "bit of bread" -- so applying any categories to it that you might apply to a "bit of bread" is irrelevant and not a little stupid.
Originally posted by Siegfried:
The fact that both you and Thurible brought it up, as well as a lot of the other charged rhetoric leads me to wonder if a bit of bread is being treated as an object of worship, which is a more serious problem, IMO, than some git selling it on EBay.
quote:I certainly have not said this. On the contrary, I said right up at the top of the previous page that what he was doing was horrid. He has offended on at least three levels: by trampling on something sacred; by abusing the hospitality of the church he visited; and by knowingly - as the opening disclaimer of his ebay post admits - acting in a way which he knows will cause offence.
Originally posted by Cosmo:
I'm fed up with this 'well, Jesus can take care of Himself and so that means anybody who wants to come in and trample over the sacred beliefs of the Church and take away the Body of Christ and even munch away at Him in their stall should just be allowed to do it, right, and nobody should be allowed to be even a little bit mad at them for pissing all over their Faith' argument. In the mass Our Lord continues to give Himself up for us. so no, he can't take care of Himself. He's too busy taking care of us.
quote:So, I'm not a real Christian, nor are the others who don't agree with you on this? Of all the stupid, closeminded and just plain insulting things you've said on these boards, this one is the capper.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Look here!
Scroll down to the description of a Black Mass! THIS IS WHAT COULD HAPPEN! I don't want that happening to the Body of Christ at my church or any other church!
Any real Christian would agree! No matter what the feelings of the person involved might be.
Tough shit buddy!
-103
quote:It could have perhaps been handled a little more gently, 103 - I know it's nerve-wracking being a Eucharistic Minister, but part of your role is indeed to see that the Host is consumed with reverence at the altar.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
quote:To quote from the site that 103 linked to:
Originally posted by Enthia:
103, you obviously didn’t want that person to take the wafer away.
As I’m not a catholic, I wondered what’s the worst that could have happened to it?
quote:Abhorrent. Repulsive. Reprehensible.
This is the ultimate rite for a real Satanist to obtain magic powers: A blasphemous Mass, where the altar is a nude woman, and the vagina is the tabernacle. If possible, a real Host stolen from a Catholic Church is placed in the vagina in the midst of reciting distorted psalms with hot music and all kind of obscenities, coursing Jesus and honoring Satan. The fake priest ends up having real sex, with the Host still in the vagina.
... If a baby can be slaughtered during the ritual, they will drink his blood and eat his flesh, to mimic the most the Eucharist...
. .. Ideally, a Black Mass is to be celebrated by a "real heretic Priest", that, even in sin, can celebrate Mass effectively.
- The prayers end with the strongest expression of Satanism: "Shemhaforash", the word pronounced by God when he created the World, and, while spitting on a cross or stepping on it, they all cry out "Hail, Satan".
. .. And, of course, it may end up with a sexual orgy with all kind of abominations and abuses, under the influence of drugs.
quote:No - It wasn't abuse. I had to stop her in order to watch her consume the Body of Christ. Failure to do so would be abusing Christ's Church and just "overlooking" would basically mean I would be commiting a Mortal sin which would be just as bad as what she could go and commit!
Originally posted by Peronel:
Yet none of that is as bad as grabbing and hissing at a member of the body of Christ during the service. A quiet word at the church door, maybe. But what 103 did was an abuse of his position of authority as Eucharistic minister as well as an abject failure to model the love of Christ.
quote:But she could put it in her handbag to take home!
Of course, it's far more likely that she would have taken it back to her pew and eaten it there. Or eaten it en route. Or was holding on to it to intinct. Or whilst she prayed.
quote:Well, that's a wonderful advertisement on behalf of the Catholic Faith, which I thought claimed to be concerned with the ultimate spiritual well-being of all of humanity. Perhaps I have misunderstood my catechesis.
Originally posted by Cosmo:
If Pants or Peronel or Sienna or anybody came to the Cosmodrome and tried to take away the Host with them (as has happened) then they would be stopped and I don't care if they never came again. The offence that that person gives to the Catholic Faith is greater than me telling them to stick by the rules.
quote:Oh, how nice of you to describe the Communion of your fellow Christians as a "soggy piece of Mother's Pride". I'm sure this is in no way on the same level as insulting Jews by failing to cover your head in a synagogue or eating ham in a mosque. Oh no.
If you really want an insult then you should see what Black Magicians do with the Hosts that they desecrate. Nobody bothers to do that with the soggy piece of Mother's Pride given out down the local Methodist Chapel.
Cosmo
quote:So you'd be happy with someone doing that with the Body of Our Lord? Even if you believe that the elements at the Eucharist are only symbolically the Body of Our Lord, would you be happy with someone doing that with symbols? I know I wouldn't, and though I probably wouldn't have expressed it quite like 103 did, I do find it hard to see how one can claim to be a follower of Christ and be happy with such an act.
Siegfried said:
So, I'm not a real Christian, nor are the others who don't agree with you on this? Of all the stupid, closeminded and just plain insulting things you've said on these boards, this one is the capper.
quote:I'm sorry but that's just not true. 103 (I can't believe I'm saying this) was quite right to do what he did just as I have done on several occasions. How do I know that you, Peronel, whom I have never seen before in my Church, is simply going to take Our Lord away and eat Him in the comfort of your own pew? How do I know that you are not going to take Him away and pee on Him when you get home? How do I know you are not going to throw Him into a rubbish bin and laugh at Hinm and the Church? How do I know you are not going to take Him away for use in a so-called Black Mass or Satanic Revel?
Originally posted by Peronel:
There is no justification for stealing the host. There is no justification for the deceit involved by taking one with false intentions. There is no justification in trying to profit from that.
Yet none of that is as bad as grabbing and hissing at a member of the body of Christ during the service. A quiet word at the church door, maybe. But what 103 did was an abuse of his position of authority as Eucharistic minister as well as an abject failure to model the love of Christ.
Had it happened to me, not only would I not have returned to that church, it probably would have taken many months before I plucked up the courage to go to church again.
Peronel.
quote:This is Hell. Personal attacks are allowed here and only here.
Originally posted by Enthia:
Mousethief don't get personal, remember the 10 commandments.
quote:No, what 103 did was a total fulfilment of one of the more difficult aspects of his role as Eucharistic minister, and he is to be commended for it. This sort of confrontation is not the sort of thing that comes naturally in our society, but where the Sacred is involved, it is often necesary.
Originally posted by Peronel:
A quiet word at the church door, maybe. But what 103 did was an abuse of his position of authority as Eucharistic minister...
quote:Is this the same Christ who cast the moneychangers out of the temple for desecrating what he held to be sacred? I don't see any hint of a 'quiet word at the door' in the Gospel account. How is it exactly that Henry has failed in following the example set by Our Lord?
as well as an abject failure to model the love of Christ.
quote:As I'm sure you know the MBS is treated with a great deal of respect in Catholic churches as it is, as far as we are concerned, the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. That makes it an object of veneration.
The fact that both you and Thurible brought it up, as well as a lot of the other charged rhetoric leads me to wonder if a bit of bread is being treated as an object of worship, which is a more serious problem, IMO, than some git selling it on EBay.
quote:Excuse me? Where did I say I was happy about someone swiping a wafer and selling it? I'm just amazed and apalled the comments by some posters (103 among them) who seem to me to be straying into idolatry. And don't even get me started on the sort of gullible people who run around believing Satanists are routinely killing babies and drinking their blood.
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:So you'd be happy with someone doing that with the Body of Our Lord? Even if you believe that the elements at the Eucharist are only symbolically the Body of Our Lord, would you be happy with someone doing that with symbols? I know I wouldn't, and though I probably wouldn't have expressed it quite like 103 did, I do find it hard to see how one can claim to be a follower of Christ and be happy with such an act.
Siegfried said:
So, I'm not a real Christian, nor are the others who don't agree with you on this? Of all the stupid, closeminded and just plain insulting things you've said on these boards, this one is the capper.
quote:Yes, she could have. And she could have then taken it home, and stuck in in her fanny, and drunk the blood of a dead baby in some bizarre mockery of the Mass.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
But she could put it in her handbag to take home!
-103
quote:The Catholic Faith is concerned with the spiritual wellbeing of all humanity. That is why we don't let Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament be pissed all over, abused and desecrated just for the sake of not offending a nice little person. The Gospel is, by its very nature, offensive and sometimes it means saying 'No'.
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:Well, that's a wonderful advertisement on behalf of the Catholic Faith, which I thought claimed to be concerned with the ultimate spiritual well-being of all of humanity. Perhaps I have misunderstood my catechesis.
Originally posted by Cosmo:
If Pants or Peronel or Sienna or anybody came to the Cosmodrome and tried to take away the Host with them (as has happened) then they would be stopped and I don't care if they never came again. The offence that that person gives to the Catholic Faith is greater than me telling them to stick by the rules.
quote:You think it's fine to take the Body of Christ and put in a vagina?!?!??
Originally posted by Siegfried:
quote:So, I'm not a real Christian, nor are the others who don't agree with you on this? Of all the stupid, closeminded and just plain insulting things you've said on these boards, this one is the capper.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Look here!
Scroll down to the description of a Black Mass! THIS IS WHAT COULD HAPPEN! I don't want that happening to the Body of Christ at my church or any other church!
Any real Christian would agree! No matter what the feelings of the person involved might be.
Tough shit buddy!
-103
Sieg
quote:and sticking the Body of Christ in her fanny isn't?
Originally posted by Peronel:
I think that's a pity. Do you?
quote:Unlike you it is not my intention to be deliberately offensive.
You can be irreverent all you want with things YOU think are sacred. When you start pissing on things you DO NOT think are sacred, but other people do, you are being disrespectful.
I hope that's clear enough even for a fuckwit like yourself to understand.
quote:Satanists do not routinely go about killing babies and drinking their blood (although the killing of babies and adults does sometimes happen and is the culmination of a Satanic Rite). However, the desecration of the Blessed Sacrament (and all that pertains to it - the altar, tabernacle, ciboria etc) does happen often and on a routine basis.
Originally posted by Siegfried:
And don't even get me started on the sort of gullible people who run around believing Satanists are routinely killing babies and drinking their blood.
Sieg
quote:He's not the only one.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Back-to-Front, you seem to have difficulty with the idea that an intelligent person might disagree with you.
quote:Sticking Hosts in various orifices is one of the better-known abuses of the Host. 103 prevented the possibility of abuse by his actions, which are the standard way of dealing with this type of incident. Insofar as you are objecting to his prevention of this abuse, then yes, you are passivley advocating abuse of the Host, of which sticking it into a bodily orifice was a possibility.
Originally posted by Siegfried:
So, how Peronel and I are advocating sticking Hosts in various orifices? Has reading comprehension completely gone out the window?
Sieg
quote:If you look further up, you'll see I describe it as "Abhorrent. Repulsive. Reprehensible." It is also incredibly unlikely.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
quote:and sticking the Body of Christ in her fanny isn't?
Originally posted by Peronel:
I think that's a pity. Do you?
quote:Like respect for a person doing their job in a church they way they were told to do it, and commended by their priest afterwards for doing it? That kind of respect? Why don't you have that kind of respect?
Originally posted by Enthia:
Just because personal attacks are allowed, doesn’t mean you have to reduce yourself to that level.
I’m an atheist and im against selling religious artifices on eBay. People should have a little respect, there isn’t enough respect nowadays.
quote:Enthia sweetie - you're terribly new around here to be telling us how to do things!
Originally posted by Enthia:
Just because personal attacks are allowed, doesn’t mean you have to reduce yourself to that level.
I’m an atheist and im against selling religious artifices on eBay. People should have a little respect, there isn’t enough respect nowadays.
quote:I wouldn't dream of it trying to take the Host away from the Cosmodrome (or anywhere else), nor do I think it's just fine to treat the Eucharist in any way I please. But I'm fairly sure, from reading your posts, that when you stopped the errant communicant, you would at least initially try to do so in a dignified, unobtrusive manner, not yelling, hissing or grabbing at them unless it was a last resort.
If Pants or Peronel or Sienna or anybody came to the Cosmodrome and tried to take away the Host with them (as has happened) then they would be stopped and I don't care if they never came again. The offence that that person gives to the Catholic Faith is greater than me telling them to stick by the rules.
quote:No it is not.
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:If you look further up, you'll see I describe it as "Abhorrent. Repulsive. Reprehensible." It is also incredibly unlikely.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
quote:and sticking the Body of Christ in her fanny isn't?
Originally posted by Peronel:
I think that's a pity. Do you?
quote:Even more likely, you are abrogating the authority of his priest, who commended his actions, and acting like you consider yourself the priest's superior. What a hero.
Originally posted by Peronel:
More likely, though, is that he's upset someone who committed the unforgivable sin of being unfamiliar with the ways of his church. What a hero.
quote:OK, let me rephrase "Grabbing" with "Firmly Gripped"
Originally posted by Sienna:
103, all caps and multiple exclamation points generally means "yelling." "Grabbing" her by the shoulder doesn't mean "a polite tap." Note I didn't say you should let her do whatever she wanted or leave with the Eucharist. What I said was she should be treated respectfully, which, from your retelling of the incident, I don't think you did.
quote:As I said, the number of full Satanic Revels is small. However, the number of routine desecrations is large. You will forgive if I don't go into the details but, in my line of work, one has personal experience of this.
Originally posted by Peronel:
Well said, Sienna.
Cosmo, unless you can produce any figures (and I admit that I can't, either) I guess we're going to have to just agree to disagree on the incidence of blood-drinking host-desecrating black masses.
Peronel
quote:Sorry--it was the first part of my post I meant. I am not defending the person who took the host with the intent of selling it. It is not something I would do, any more than I would attempt to communicate at an RC church, knowing that I don't view it as they do, and knowing that under their doctrines I am not allowed to communicate. However--it happened. He took it. What would people have happen to him, or his auctioning it?
Originally posted by Callan:
How does that answer my point. Your observation was that Catholics were bad for regarding 'a bit of bread' as 'an object of worship'. My point was that what you believe to be a 'bit of bread' was, for some of us, the MBS of our Lord's body and blood.
quote:What is rather more likely is that the incident as his priest saw it is rather different from how 103 initially described it.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:Even more likely, you are abrogating the authority of his priest, who commended his actions, and acting like you consider yourself the priest's superior. What a hero.
Originally posted by Peronel:
More likely, though, is that he's upset someone who committed the unforgivable sin of being unfamiliar with the ways of his church. What a hero.
quote:It's regrettable that the lady thought that she could take the host and it had to come to that.
Originally posted by Peronel:
103, you still haven't said if you think that last is regrettable.
quote:If I gave someone the Host and they put in their pocket rather than their mouth, I would intervene. If they just wandered off with it, I would keep an eye on him/her and take some sort of action (most likely delegating an off-duty EM -- there's usually one or two in the front pews) to investigate, thus allowing me to continue offering the Body.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
...I quickly grabbed her shoulder and told her that she had to eat it immediatly. She looked at me as if I was crazy and I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!....
quote:Well, this Catholic, a struggling, sinful, heretical, trusting in God and not pretending to fully understand Him, has thrown her faith and soul into the Roman Catholic Church, because She (the Church) has been calling me for far longer than either you or Cosmo has been alive. And if salvation and grace are only actually given to those who intellectually agree with every word, paragraph, heading, and footnote of the Cathecism, then I suspect Hell is going to be very crowded indeed, and I apologize for polluting your (a-hem, cough) "Cathlolic" Church. Which one was that, by the way?
She probably will never come to my church again because of that but to Catholics it is INCREDIBLY important that somebody doesn't desecrate that Body of Christ. It is something so serious we just can't risk it!
quote:Saint Matthew 7:1
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Given the fact that his priest was actually there in the room with him, and presumably not terribly far from him, when it happened, I'd say your thinking you can judge it better than the priest from a few words in a post on a discussion site is pretty ... what's a good word for it? dumb-as-dirt? outrageously presumptuous? absurd? ridiculous? Anyway it doesn't make you look very good, especially as you keep clinging to this inane presupposition that you are better placed to judge 103 than his own priest.
quote:Ouch.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Saint Matthew 7:1
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Given the fact that his priest was actually there in the room with him, and presumably not terribly far from him, when it happened, I'd say your thinking you can judge it better than the priest from a few words in a post on a discussion site is pretty ... what's a good word for it? dumb-as-dirt? outrageously presumptuous? absurd? ridiculous? Anyway it doesn't make you look very good, especially as you keep clinging to this inane presupposition that you are better placed to judge 103 than his own priest.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:Actually, I was saying the opposite. I guess my cocked up edit didn't help my comprehensibility.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Given the fact that his priest was actually there in the room with him, and presumably not terribly far from him, when it happened, I'd say your thinking you can judge it better than the priest from a few words in a post on a discussion site is pretty ... what's a good word for it? dumb-as-dirt? outrageously presumptuous? absurd? ridiculous? Anyway it doesn't make you look very good, especially as you keep clinging to this inane presupposition that you are better placed to judge 103 than his own priest.
quote:I'll use that as my signature!
Originally posted by chive:
103 - Has no one ever told you that girls don't like sanctimonious little shits?
quote:I can so see Jesus doing the same as you 103. Can I suggest you don't parade your follies across the net.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
, I quickly grabbed her shoulder and told her that she had to eat it immediatly. She looked at me as if I was crazy and I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!
quote:Nice to see Luther being vindicated
Callan:
Why do protestants have such a difficulty with this? If the religious ceremonies of any other religious group were desecrated for profit, I imagine the response would be outrage.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:Peachy. Then he shouldn't have raised it on a discussion board.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I'm saying it's his priest's problem, not yours or mine, Peronel.
quote:I ate half a box of the buggers once, horrible dry things. yuck.
Originally posted by ken:
Anyone can buy unconsecrated wafers. I can get them in a shop round the corner.
quote:Also true. Peronel is allowed to make an ass of herself over this all she wants. And what do you know! She has!
Originally posted by jlg:
Quite true as far as the bottom line, Mousethief, but he posted it and this is Hell.
quote:Couldn't find the parish custard creams?
Originally posted by starbelly:
quote:I ate half a box of the buggers once, horrible dry things. yuck.
Originally posted by ken:
Anyone can buy unconsecrated wafers. I can get them in a shop round the corner.
quote:And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:Also true. Peronel is allowed to make an ass of herself over this all she wants. And what do you know! She has!
Originally posted by jlg:
Quite true as far as the bottom line, Mousethief, but he posted it and this is Hell.
quote:WTF are you talking about?
Originally posted by Peronel:
And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
quote:It's part of their sacramental theology, Peronel, known as the Real Absence.
Peronel, responding to the faithful: And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
quote:Well done!
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
quote:It's part of their sacramental theology, Peronel, known as the Real Absence.
Peronel, responding to the faithful: And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
quote:In arguing that 103 was correct to grab and hiss at someone, embarrassing them to the extent that he thinks they are unlikely to return, in order to prevent the possible theft of the host, that is, in effect what you are saying. That the risk to the host outweighs the probable distress.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:WTF are you talking about?
Originally posted by Peronel:
And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
quote:Thank you, Captain Caveman.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
If through lack of understanding or consideration I have posted something on this thread which has caused anyone offence to deeply held beliefs then I apologise for it.
quote:God save me from all real Christians and Eucharistic Ministers.
Any real Christian would agree! No matter what the feelings of the person involved might be.
Tough shit buddy!
-103
quote:And I notice we're back to the description of "grabbing."
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:It's regrettable that the lady thought that she could take the host and it had to come to that.
Originally posted by Peronel:
103, you still haven't said if you think that last is regrettable.
But I do not regret grabbing her and telling her to eat it!
-103
quote:From what I've known of you in your posts here and elsewhere, you have the good sense not to be making off with a Host at the Mass, so I don't see how this situation would arise.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
I have to say, if any punk ass kid like 103 ever did this to me while at the altar, a) I'd let him have a good verbal toungelashing right then and there, b) I'd be in to see his priest ASAP to try to get him out of his job as Eucharistic minister, and c) I'd pray he never tried to take up pastoral counselling. I mean, good heavens.
quote:No. This is wrong.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
Indeed, 103 was not to know what her intentions were.
Thus his inappropriate behaviour is made even more unjustifiable. Were she a known satanist, or had made some sort of declaration that she was taking it away for nefarious purpose, then he would have reacted possibly in a justifiable manner.
quote:then it was perfectly justified.
rude
loud
irreverantial
physically grabbing an older woman (by his own description)
hissing at her and commanding her to do things.
quote:Then why are you bothering to post here if you don't think it is your call either?
Originally posted by Mousethief:
You.Just.Don't.Get.It.
It's.Not.My.Call.and.It's.Not.Yours.
I don't know how to make this any plainer. Hello? Anybody home?
quote:
4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
quote:
7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
quote:
righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
quote:(apologies for verse numbers - used Bible Gateway - NIV, UK version 'coz it's on my toolbar & handy!)
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
quote:(from Genesis 1, NIV,UK)
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
sorry - my code is utterly reprehensible in the previous , and my computer's in a strop so I missed the edit window.quote:?
chopped up ordinary white bread.
This is, obviously, different to those in the RC (& OC?) church.
quote:Would that so many of you were as clear on this point as Sienna, then.
Originally posted by Sienna:
I think it's that attitude many of us are taking issue with.
quote:I'm afraid they do intinct, although it is not proper practice.They tend to dip on the spot though, not take the Host away. Not all parishes offer Communion under both kinds though.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
A question: Do Catholics ever intincture the host? And if they do, how do the LEMs know if someone is not hanging on to the host for that purpose? Presumably the lady in question bypassed the chalice with the host in hand- of did she sip from the chalice still clutching the host? In either case I can understand a new LEM reacting in a slightly panicky way.
quote:I have a question---no doubt quite a stupid one. If RCs and Orthodox believe the consecrated bread to be the Body and Blood of our Lord, why not speak of it, unapologetically, as something to be "worshipped" rather than "venerated"? Please forgive my ignorance.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
However, our parish priest also noted, when we discussed the incident at our next pastoral council meeting, that he had come across instances where people had taken consecrated hosts home "for later" for private veneration and later consumption.
quote:You make an interesting and subtle point.
Originally posted by The Prophetess:
quote:I have a question---no doubt quite a stupid one. If RCs and Orthodox believe the consecrated bread to be the Body and Blood of our Lord, why not speak of it, unapologetically, as something to be "worshipped" rather than "venerated"? Please forgive my ignorance.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
However, our parish priest also noted, when we discussed the incident at our next pastoral council meeting, that he had come across instances where people had taken consecrated hosts home "for later" for private veneration and later consumption.
quote:and see for the longer explanation in the Catechism. Taking the host home for private veneration is still an act of respect and love for the Real Presence, but it misses out on the element of sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Passion, that element of "making present" Christ's sacrifice. It also misses out on the act of worship and thanksgiving offered by the whole Church in the Mass. It's like only getting part of the picture.
1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:
- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.
quote:Indeed it is, Duo Seraphim, and I must thank you for that eloquent and informative post you just made regarding "incidents". Anna was asking about the nuance between "venerating" the sacred elements and "Worship".
It's also a pastoral opportunity.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:You spoke earlier of showing respect for other people's beliefs. Where's yours for mine?
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Originally posted by rosamundi:quote:I'm not having a go at any of the people here, who after all don't make the rules, but personally I find this offensive.
It is not permitted for a non-Catholic to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church, unless under certain very specific conditions.
There's a whole thread down in Dead Horses where you can flog this to your heart's content, sweetie.
quote:rosamundi:
You find it offensive not to be permitted to pretend to be in communion with a church that you aren't in communion with?
I'd like to be surprised but as this fits the level of logic that you have displayed elsewhere on this thread, I find it rather difficult.
quote:As must by now be apparent, my beliefs about this are very different from yours. I'd be happy to discuss it if you want to pm me, but I imagine my views will have been adequately represented by someone on the Dead Horses thread(s).
There is at least one, if not several, threads in Dead Horses on this topic. However, I will say this - the Eucharist is a sign of unity. As we are not united, it is not appropriate for us to share a sign of unity.
quote:See now, I've been a Protestant Christian all my life and I really had no idea that this was such a big deal for Catholics (and others). I guess I've learnt something from this thread.
As I'm sure you know the MBS is treated with a great deal of respect in Catholic churches as it is, as far as we are concerned, the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. That makes it an object of veneration.
...Why do protestants have such a difficulty with this?
quote:Well neither do you lame brain. 103 posted here which means anyone can comment on if he thought we shouldn't comment he wouldn't have posted it. If that is a bit complicated for you take a pill and lie in a darkened room and maybe comprehension will seep through.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
You.Just.Don't.Get.It.
quote:
Better a soggy Mother's Pride where love is, than a consecrated host and hatred therewith
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
) , etc. Seems to me that applies here.quote:huh?
Many thanks to luvanddaisies for a very considered post.
I've noticed a few references on the thread from which I (perhaps wrongly) have inferref that posters think that 103 is RC. He and his church are Anglican.
quote:surely no church regards Communion as an irritation or as an irrelevance - no matter how unorthodox their enactment of the sacrament is. I, personally, have received Communion where the bread element is a bread roll, garlic foccacia, fruit and nut loaf... but each time this has been done with reverence, solemnity, and celebration of the Church's communion with Christ, and with each other.
The memorialist nature of more protestant celebrations of the Holy Communion doesn't seem to lend itself to desecration. This is not to say that these churches do not find Holy Communion important (although some regard it as an irritation and an irrelevance), more
quote:I think I'd agree with that, really. Maybe a more gentle approach, or even, given the stress of the moment that 103 felt, that he could maybe have made a point of making a beeline for the lady at the end of the service and explaining her strange experience to her - showing his human face to her!
...103's pride in his actions, and lack of concern for the effect his actions had on the lady.
I'm not criticizing 103 for requiring the lady to consume or return the host, and I understand his nervousness. What I am criticizing is the manner in which he did so (It would have killed him to say "please"?).
What I'm having a larger problem with is that he has expressed absolutely no regret for any hurt his actions (justifiable or not) might have caused this lady, and doesn't seem to give a rip whether she comes back to church or not. - his only regret is that the woman didn't seem to know how to behave up to his standards - sort of an "I'm sorry you're being stupid" regret. Nor does he appear to think there's a need to contemplate a better way to handle such situations in the future.
And I think it's that attitude many of us are taking issue with.
quote:But it's theft, isn't it? It's different from online porn in that the ebay seller was doing something offensive with something that s/he had no right to take.
Originally posted by Emma.:
Really just because the RC church find it offensive doesnt mean that everyone should bow down to that.
quote:What was actually stolen? Surley the wafer was given to this person?
Originally posted by The Alchemist:
quote:But it's theft, isn't it? It's different from online porn in that the ebay seller was doing something offensive with something that s/he had no right to take.
Originally posted by Emma.:
Really just because the RC church find it offensive doesnt mean that everyone should bow down to that.
quote:I have no idea whether the Vatican would have a case in a court of law, but the host was not given to the person unconditionally, it was given to them on the condition that they eat it there and then. If you give someone something on a particular condition (e.g. an advance on the understanding that the complete a particular piece of work) and they don't fulfil that condition (e.g. they don't do the work) then keeping the thing they've been given is theft, I would think.
Originally posted by starbelly:
What was actually stolen? Surley the wafer was given to this person?
quote:Yes, definately. Regardless what perspective one has on the Real Presence, and thus the desecration issue, it is an outrageous violation of the church's hospitality. I'd be livid if I found out a guest at my home had nicked the forks to flog later, and I certainly don't think God is present in those! The sacramental nature of the stolen object makes the violation a thousand times worse than that.
Originally posted by The Alchemist:
But it's theft, isn't it? It's different from online porn in that the ebay seller was doing something offensive with something that s/he had no right to take.
quote:There is, I think, a very clear difference between this and 103's position. Had he said that, in the heat of the moment, he acted more abruptly than - with hindsight - he would have wished, I would have far less problem with how he responded. Had he recognised that he might have caused hurt, and regretted that, I would be far less bothered.
I imagine that I'd do something similar to 103 in the circumstances - I'd try to be as polite as I could, but in the heat of the moment I probably wouldn't do very well. However, I'd try to find the woman after the service and explain why I said what I said, and apologise for saying it rudely. I'd put preventing desecration before being polite, but I'd do my best to do both.
quote:*nods* And if we believe that members of the church are the body of Christ too, driving her away could perhaps also be considered a kind of desecration.
Originally posted by Peronel:
Instead, it appears, he doesn't give a damn that - by his own admission - he probably scared someone away from the church. That, I think, is what really gets my back up.
quote:No you will not. Neither will FCB, or any others.
Caveman says:
At the risk of going over dead ground, since I've had comments on this issue given directly to me I will state my position.
quote:I've changed my response to this in light of Sarkycow's post, but let me say that you're not a host and your post added nothing, so why butt in?
Clearly you don't realize just how dead this dead horse is. I will be interested to see if the "Roman and Eastern Table Fellowship" thread stays in Dead Horses after the reorganization, but certainly that thread says pretty much everything that can be said on the issue.
quote:I have to say that I find it amazing that a Catholic would be so absorbed with their own little Catholic world that would expect non-Catholics as a matter of course to understand their ways. But if you say that this is the case, I suppose I'll have to believe you.
I have to say that I find it amazing that a Protestant could be so isolated from Catholic beliefs that he wouldn't realize that selling the Eucharist on Ebay would be offensive. But if you say that this is the case, I suppose I'll have to believe you.
quote:Either because other people said "It's a DH" and so stopped discussing it, whilst you said "My position has probably been said down there, so I won't go to DH and discuss it. But here's what I think."
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
Sarkycow: My apologies. May I ask why the hosts said nothing to those who expressed their own views on this matter, even while stating that it was a Dead Horse? The fact is that at least three people over a period of several hours stated a position different to mine before I stated mine.
quote:My point was to acknowledge your apology. But since you apparently want to continue being a jerk: the "little Catholic world" includes over a billion people, so, yes, your ignorance is amazing.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
I have to say that I find it amazing that a Catholic would be so absorbed with their own little Catholic world that would expect non-Catholics as a matter of course to understand their ways.
quote:Are you sure you meant that?
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
You're all grown-ups
quote:If you are not grown-up enough to cope without a host holding your hand, then you really shouldn't be posting here.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:Are you sure you meant that?
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
You're all grown-ups
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:Fair enough.
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
FCB: Not for the first time on this thread, I apologise. I took your post to be expressing dismay at my unjustifiable and barely credible ignorance. It seems that's not the spirit in which it was intended, but maybe you can see why I took it that way.
quote:Just out of curiousity, has anybody been able to glean any information about the buyer? (It's listed on the auction page, but when I clicked on it, eBay wanted me to go through the whole registration process, which I couldn't be bothered with at the time.)
Originally posted by Billfrid:
Dear All,
My complaint to ebay received a bland corporate standard response along the lines of: they will investigate my complaint, but they won't tell me what they're going to do the seller (if anything).
Not good enough for me, I will try another way of communicating my disgust. It's not easy to complain to ebay - lots of 'helpful' re-directions to FAQs rather than an email form. But I'll keep trying.
quote:Thank you.
Originally posted by Thurible:
Peronel,
As far as I understand it, once the Blessed Sacrament, always the Blessed Sacrament. The reason that It should be change regularly (weekly at least) is, I imagine, simply because consuming a stale Host is not likely to be terribly edifying, nor will it prevent crumbs. (Or do they go soggy? - either way.)
Thurible
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
If you really want an insult then you should see what Black Magicians do with the Hosts that they desecrate.
quote:While I love me a good episode of Charmed as much as the next gal (as rare as they are, even when they bring back the hotness that is Cole they still fuck it up), all this talk and hysteria about black magic indicates that each of you is crazier than the proverbial shithouse rat.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Scroll down to the description of a Black Mass! THIS IS WHAT COULD HAPPEN! I don't want that happening to the Body of Christ at my church or any other church!
Any real Christian would agree! No matter what the feelings of the person involved might be.
Tough shit buddy!
quote:Really? It's a fucking stupid belief. Why should I respect it?
Originally posted by Callan:
All we are saying is that Catholic beliefs about their most important religious ceremony should be respected by non-Catholics.
quote:Oh joy. Here comes the march of the invincibly ignorant.
Originally posted by Erin:
My oh my. What happens when one is indisposed.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
If you really want an insult then you should see what Black Magicians do with the Hosts that they desecrate.quote:While I love me a good episode of Charmed as much as the next gal (as rare as they are, even when they bring back the hotness that is Cole they still fuck it up), all this talk and hysteria about black magic indicates that each of you is crazier than the proverbial shithouse rat.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Scroll down to the description of a Black Mass! THIS IS WHAT COULD HAPPEN! I don't want that happening to the Body of Christ at my church or any other church!
Any real Christian would agree! No matter what the feelings of the person involved might be.
Tough shit buddy!
quote:Originally posted by Erin:
Originally posted by Callan:
All we are saying is that Catholic beliefs about their most important religious ceremony should be respected by non-Catholics.
quote:Nice to know that you regard the Church throughout the world from its earliest times to now and those who follow its teaching and belief as 'fucking stupid'. Why not go round to your local RC Bishop or just the RC parish priest, knock on his door and tell him that he and his beliefs are 'fucking stupid'. No? Why not?
Really? It's a fucking stupid belief. Why should I respect it?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
quote:Last time I checked, S. Mary's was Anglican.
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
huh?
ok, I had assumed he and his church were RC.
are you sure?
quote:As I shall go on to explain below, whether or not the members of this church believe in Transubstantiation is not entirely relevant. In any case, there are features of 103's church that would be a giveaway of the church's tradition. The fact that the service is referred to as the Mass is perhaps the most obvious one, but the ceremony, candles, images of the Saints, incense, and importations from the Roman Missal, would all be very strong indications to anybody vaguely familiar with church, that this church is in the Catholic tradition.
anyway - it maybe might be a suggestion that the church's view of what Communion is might be explained before the actual sacrament - as someone just dropping into their local anglican church might have no idea of that congregation's perception of transubstantiation, and might, like I would be, be used to a totally different approach in anglican services.
quote:That may be your belief, but it's hardly an accurate summary of Anglican belief, which covers a whole spectrum, probably even including those who are where Captain Caveman is at, all the way to where 103 and I are as Anglicans, and yes with most shades in between, which is seemingly where you are.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
If he's Anglican, then why the need for the fuss? If I'm correct (and I speak as a member of the ECUSA, which is part of the Anglican comunion) we don't even believe in transubstantiation. It is more than symbolic, but less than transubstantiation. In short, it is not for us to know how Christ is present in the host.
quote:Yes, it really is a terrible thing to be rude.
Originally posted by Erin:
And yes, I think the belief in the "Real Presence" such that you and 103 feel justified in being rude during a church service is fucking stupid.
quote:That's up to you of course. Any experience? No? OK then, but nothing I say will make you think any differently so we'll leave it at that. I know the dangers and I've seen the aftermath. You haven't (I presume). However, your total ignorance of the subject still entitles you to call me a liar. You would be wrong but you can still call me that if you really want to.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
COSMO....my BS indicator is going strong here.
quote:And I bet you typed this in all sincerity. Tell me again which one of us is hiding behind a pseudonym on these boards?
Originally posted by Cosmo:
I leave that for others to do anonymously from the bravery of their office cube.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:The Methodist Church doesn't have 'Ministeresses'. And I've never received a piece of soggy bread in any Methodist church I've worshipped at. 'sfunny, isn't it, how the people who imperiously demand absolute respect from other Christians who don't share their belief system discourteously (and predictably
Originally posted by Cosmo:
In re the 'soggy pieces of Mother's Pride' then yes, I would be quite happy to say to the Methodist Ministeress that the species she uses for Holy Communion is soggy Mother's Pride, the reason being is that it is.
Cosmo
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
) refuse to be respectful of the belief systems of those fellow Christians. quote:Ah, and here was me thinking that Satanists just hadn't had their Reformation yet. (What form would that take, I wonder? "No, I don't want to worship THAT Antichrist, I want to worship the one from the 'Left Behind' novels! And I'm standing up for my right to desecrate those stupid little mini-saltines and plastic cups that I always got at First Assembly of God in Pleasantville!")
Originally posted by Cosmo:
The memorialist nature of more protestant celebrations of the Holy Communion doesn't seem to lend itself to desecration. ... the species they use for its administration are not thought to have any intrinsic otherness. Thus Satanists, desecrators and the like do not find them attractive for their purposes.
Cosmo
quote:Mulder made more sense and was less arrogant than Cosmo.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Peronal, you said it so much better then I.
Cosmo, your posts sound like Mulder on the X-Files. I've seen more of this sort of stuff then many evangelical Christians but also enough to know to not take what was posted seriously.
I believe in the Devil and Satan and in evil working in this world.
This isn't it.
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:I didn't yell - I hissed. It was necessary because she was walking quite quickly and I panicked on my first time as Eucharistic Minister. I told my parish priest and he said that he saw and it was exactly what I should've done. I had remembered what he told me to do from the Eucharistic Minister Instruction Lessons! If you don't like it you can take it up with my parish priest. He said that he didn't want anybody taking the host away with them and it was OUR DUTY as Eucharistic Ministers to make sure that it doesn't happen and to watch them consume it!
Originally posted by Sienna:
103, Jesus can take care of himself, and is more than capable of defending Himself against desecration, intentional or accidental. The reason for respect of the Precious Body is for our benefit, not His. So the sanctimonious drama about "choosing a person over Our Lord" is more than a little bit over the top.
Was it necessary to grab her and yell, publicly embarrassing her? Tell me, as a Eucharistic Minister, do you not see that you have some duty to those receiving the Eucharist, namely, treating them with respect? You said yourself she probably won't come back to your church. I wonder whether that's the result Christ would have wished for.
It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
quote:Sorry, sonny, but no. You were right to inform her that she should consume the host - she probably had no idea what to do with it - but the manner in which you did so was inexcusable.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
[QB] It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
quote:At no point have I said that the theft of Hosts for Satanic Revels is widespread or that it is happenning on a large scale. I merely said that it happens and that Satanists, (real ones rather than silly spotty teenagers pretending to be nasty) when they do try to get hold of a consecrated host for their fun and games, will always try to obtain one consecrated at a Catholic (be it Anglo, Roman or Orthodox) Mass. You can make of that what you will. I don't expect you to have a conversion, merely admit the possibility that what I say might actually have some validity.
Originally posted by Peronel:
The problem is you're asking us to accept what are some pretty wild claims on trust. It's an internet version of, "Trust me I'm a..." What are you again? Your profile claims you as Archbishop. I have no idea if that's true because, frankly, I don't know you from Adam.
So you're expecting me to believe that the theft of consecrated hosts for use in bizarre sexual rituals is widespread simply because some guy on the internet told me so. That's farcical. It has nothing to do with calling you a liar: it is simply that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Searching the BBC news webpage for "satanism" turns up twelve results. Some of those are reports of churches being vandalised by self-proclaimed satanists. Most of those are graffiti, although there are cases of arson. Reprehensible, undoubtedly, but entirely unrelated to the theft of hosts.
Were that happening on the scale you claim, I would expect lots of reports describing it. Nubile young women arrested with a host in one hand and a tube of KY in the other, that sort of thing. The tabloids would lap it up. Yet I'm finding nothing.
Now maybe you do have some special expertise you're not letting on. Given you haven't told us about it, I wouldn't know. Maybe young women all over rural England really are shoving hosts up their fannies and drinking the blood of babies.
But on the evidence presented so far, I'm not buying it.
Peronel.
quote:Um, actually, yes you have. More than once, too.
Originally posted by Cosmo:
At no point have I said that the theft of Hosts for Satanic Revels is widespread or that it is happenning on a large scale.
quote:And on page 2:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
As I said, the number of full Satanic Revels is small. However, the number of routine desecrations is large.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Satanists do not routinely go about killing babies and drinking their blood (although the killing of babies and adults does sometimes happen and is the culmination of a Satanic Rite). However, the desecration of the Blessed Sacrament (and all that pertains to it - the altar, tabernacle, ciboria etc) does happen often and on a routine basis.
quote:You've said desecration of the host within the context of satanism happens "often", "on a routine basis", that the number of incidents is "large". Given that desecration cannot happen without theft of the host then you have indeed argued that "the theft of Hosts for Satanic Revels is widespread or that it is happenning on a large scale".
Originally posted by Cosmo:
quote:No it is not.
Originally posted by Peronel:
If you look further up, you'll see I describe it as "Abhorrent. Repulsive. Reprehensible." It is also incredibly unlikely.
Cosmo
quote:Well, that depends. On one level you're right. Just saying over and over "This happens. I know it happens. I'm not going to tell you how I know it happens." is not going to convince me. If I knew and respected you in real life I'd be happier to take it on trust, I don't. And I'm generally suspicious about unsubstantiated stuff on the internet. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Originally posted by Cosmo:
As I said to Og, nothing I can say would convince you or anybody else anyway. You either recognise that this sort of thing happens or you dismiss it.
quote:You just shattered a thousand of my more pornographic dreams.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
...but they don't take them to shove up their fannies.
quote:you want to post a poll on that?
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
* because other people said "It's a DH" and so stopped discussing it, whilst you said "My position has probably been said down there, so I won't go to DH and discuss it. But here's what I think."
* because neither of the hellhosts were around in the time span when people said their opinions on the DH.
* because I am randomly cruel and vindictive, and my lotto machine picked your name out for the 'Shipmate I shall pick on today'.
You decide.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
quote:curiosity demands me to ask...
As far as I understand it, once the Blessed Sacrament, always the Blessed Sacrament. The reason that It should be change regularly (weekly at least) is, I imagine, simply because consuming a stale Host is not likely to be terribly edifying, nor will it prevent crumbs. (Or do they go soggy? - either way.)
quote:Member Profile: oz_loves_montana_coffee
Just out of curiousity, has anybody been able to glean any information about the buyer? (It's listed on the auction page, but when I clicked on it, eBay wanted me to go through the whole registration process, which I couldn't be bothered with at the time.)
quote:...assuming someone was "churched" in the first place. Many, many people aren't at all familiar with anything to do with church. Some people think that all of them are exactly the same.
In any case, there are features of 103's church that would be a giveaway of the church's tradition. The fact that the service is referred to as the Mass is perhaps the most obvious one, but the ceremony, candles, images of the Saints, incense, and importations from the Roman Missal, would all be very strong indications to anybody vaguely familiar with church, that this church is in the Catholic tradition.
quote:I think that might be something of a matter of opinion.
[R.C. church as]...the Church throughout the world from its earliest times to now
quote:Christ.... With an attitude like that, even those of us who are trying to defend your actions are having a difficult time to find a reason not to flame your sanctimonious ass.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think I over reacted or was rude!
[snip snip]
As the saying goes "You've gotta be cruel to by kind"
I helped this Lady and I am glad that I did.
quote:As it has been reported (and the story might change again) I must agree with Fr. Fiddleback here.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:Sorry, sonny, but no. You were right to inform her that she should consume the host - she probably had no idea what to do with it - but the manner in which you did so was inexcusable.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
[QB] It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
quote:What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Sorry Cosmo and young Henry, but they don't take them to shove up their fannies.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I haven't laughed so hard for a long time. It's about those black magicians. I'm trying to picture the show they might put on. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
quote:Oooh, Oooh, I know: a Cassock-Nigra? It'd be just like a Cassock-Alb only black, of course.
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
The real question, though, is: What sort of tat and vestments do they have? Inquiring minds want to know.
quote:I think it's probably more likely to be along the lines of yeast infection as Divine Retribution.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
quote:I think you over-reacted, and were rude. But in your defense, you are very young, and you were placed in an awkward position, having been told your responsibility, but not having been shown the best way to fulfill it. So you fulfilled your responsibility as the best you could, under the circumstances, and that's all we can ask of anyone. All things considered, I'd say you did well.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think I over reacted or was rude!
quote:Great - The Sacrament of Spanish Fly.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
quote:How can it give you a yeast infection if it's unleavened bread?
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:I think it's probably more likely to be along the lines of yeast infection as Divine Retribution.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
But, hey, anything can happen.
Charlotte
quote:Is there a way to contact "oz_loves_montana_coffee" to find out exactly what they plan on doing with their newfound purchase?
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:Member Profile: oz_loves_montana_coffee
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
Just out of curiousity, has anybody been able to glean any information about the buyer? (It's listed on the auction page, but when I clicked on it, eBay wanted me to go through the whole registration process, which I couldn't be bothered with at the time.)
Feedback Score: 93
Positive Feedback: 100%
Members who left a positive: 93
Members who left a negative: 0
All positive feedback received: 100
eBay Member User ID History
the User IDs that this member has used on eBay.
User ID Effective Date End Date
oz_loves_montana_coffee Dec-19-03 Present
oz-loves-coffee Apr-26-00 Dec-19-03
*******@webtv.net Apr-02-99 Apr-26-00
eBay hides parts of User IDs with "*" to protect member privacy.[/qb]
quote:Funny... Most of us leave denominations whose clergy and members make us feel like shit. If I were interested in that treatment from a church, I'd still be a Calvinist.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
If 103 has decided to make the leap to the RCC because a priest yelled at him and humiliated him, I guess he considered yelling at that lady an act of evangelism.
The insult comic Don Rickles would have made a great advocate for Catholism if yelling and ridicule are the approach of choice among priests and LEMs.
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Ah well. It will all come out in the MW Report.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:This did occur to me, as well. In how many other English dioceses are minors licensed to administer Holy Communion? Or is this an archdiocese-to-be of Ebbsfleet thing?
Originally posted by josephine to young Henry:
[QB]I think you over-reacted, and were rude. But in your defense, you are very young, and you were placed in an awkward position, having been told your responsibility, but not having been shown the best way to fulfill it.
quote:I was licensed in the Diocese of Coventry when I was 17 - I think. It might have been 18, but I think it was 17.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:This did occur to me, as well. In how many other English dioceses are minors licensed to administer Holy Communion? Or is this an archdiocese-to-be of Ebbsfleet thing?
Originally posted by josephine to young Henry:
[QB]I think you over-reacted, and were rude. But in your defense, you are very young, and you were placed in an awkward position, having been told your responsibility, but not having been shown the best way to fulfill it.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:I have been to at least one church Independent Methodist (?) where it was normal to come to the front receive the bread intinct it and consume it in your seats quietly and reverently so the likely explanation is the person came from that tradition. 103 is from the brain dead, with no respect to anyone, irreverent, High Church tradition.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think I over reacted or was rude!
I asked her to consume the host immediatly and she looked at me as if I was crazy so I told her to "Eat it now"
quote:Seen from the other way 'round, if one had a yeast infection already, it wouldn't be unleavened for long....
Originally posted by Mamacita:
How can it give you a yeast infection if it's unleavened bread?
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
I do find it odd, though, that everyone seems to pity this poor little old lady who they seem to think wandered in off the street to find she knew not what happening, but my the words sounded nice and made her feel all warm and fuzzy. Then everyone walked up to the front where they were given a little round thingy. She went along with the crowd and when she didn't know what to do with the round thingy and went to put it in her purse as a memento, she was accosted by some horrid young creature who made her feel all icky.quote:That's probably why the discerning chavvie who wants to play black magic with his mates in his dad's garage makes sure he gets the goods from a nice Anglo Catholic church (as the Rev'd Dr Cosmo assures us he would) and not a Methodist one.
Originally posted by Mamacita:
How can it give you a yeast infection if it's unleavened bread?
quote:For goodness' sake, the whole point of this thread is that It is a lot more than a simple communion wafer. It has been consecrated so is the Sacramental Localised Presence of God!
Originally posted by Justinian:
I think we (and God) have bigger things to worry about than what people are doing with communion wafers.
quote:That's you. Highly educated, highly intellectual and, I suppose, always right. Many do not understand things they do (I don't entirely understand this computer I'm using - but I still use it) and many are not driven to undersand. Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.
Originally posted by shareman:
Come on! I have attended other churches, indeed the worship services of other religions. I have tried to find out what would be happening and the meaning behind it before I went. If I didn't, I didn't have the temerity to take part in rituals I didn't understand.
quote:There are those who consider being slightly disruptive to be disrespectful - and therefore would take part in rituals.
That's just disrespectful.
quote:Who on earth said she didn't?
Unless of course she DID understand and was just being gauche. I think she has some responsibility for the situation,
quote:Does that make it more important than lives and souls?
As to objects being more important than people, well, the "object" in question is the Body of Christ. If you don't think It is, fine.
quote:Please show me one comment in this thread that suggested that it was to be treated as just a piece of flatbread. Either that, or stop making strawman arguments.
I do, and I would be deeply offended if you treated It as another piece of flatbread.
quote:If just feelings were an issue you would have a point. 103 specifically stated that she might never come back to the church. We're into the territory of souls rather than simple feelings here.
And, yes, I do think It is more important than the feelings
quote:Who on earth said they were? You've got a third strawman here.
Looked at another way, why are the feelings of someone who doesn't have enough respect for people's religious beliefs to try to understand what she is doing before she takes part in their rituals more important than the people whose beliefs she shows such disrespect for?
quote:Obtaining goods by deception to the value he e-bayed it for. Simple. (The deception was that he was going to take communion rather than sell the thing).
Originally posted by dyfrig:
An RCC disciplinary matter is not necessarily a criminal act, is it? And obtaining goods by deception presumes that there are "goods" to be obtained - if that's Jesus and not bread, that's not goods.
quote:And it is still a consecrated communion wafer, whatever its essence has been turned into. (Don't make me break out the chemistry set).
Originally posted by Thuriblequote:For goodness' sake, the whole point of this thread is that It is a lot more than a simple communion wafer. It has been consecrated so is the Sacramental Localised Presence of God!
Originally posted by Justinian:
I think we (and God) have bigger things to worry about than what people are doing with communion wafers.
?
quote:How do you know that she didn't come from a church tradition where it is normal to consume in your seat?
Originally posted by shareman:
That's just disrespectful. Unless of course she DID understand and was just being gauche.
quote:Believe me, this happens often enough especially in this area where Christianity isn't even the nominal default religion of the majority of the population. Many of those who just wander in are more likely to be nominal Sikhs. (One of my regular altar servers is, strictly speaking, a Sikh, but that's another matter). People want to do what everyone else is doing, to fit in and not be rude, so they come up to the altar rail. The trouble is that what is placed in their hand does not immediately look like food - well perhaps it may resemble a miniature chapati - but looks like a round ticket. Folks look at it, look around to see what everyone else is doing, and if they still haven't got the idea, will be inclined to put it in their pocket, or even kindly leave it in their pew at the end, or hand it back with their hymn book.
Originally posted by shareman:
I do find it odd, though, that everyone seems to pity this poor little old lady who they seem to think wandered in off the street to find she knew not what happening, but my the words sounded nice and made her feel all warm and fuzzy. Then everyone walked up to the front where they were given a little round thingy.
quote:Given the content of this thread, perhaps you should check that she's not the High Priestess of a Satanic cult taking it home for a ceremony with her husband, who is in fact Beelzebub?
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
One of my most faithful parishioners every Sunday morning breaks the host in half, consuming one half and putting the other in her handbag. I assume that she takes it home for her husband, but I have never liked to ask. Mind you, she does have an excessively floribund balcony on her eleventh floor flat.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
quote:Have you ever gone to another church and did what you normally did ie cross your self when no one else does or knelt when everyone else sat. What is wrong with people going to another church and following their own tradition?
Originally posted by Thurible:
Presumably this woman wasn't the first person in the queue, so, presumably, would have seen that everyone else consumed at the Altar rail/station?
- with black vestments, black altar frontals and black candles.But how many candles,2 or 6 ? Is the use modelled upon that of Rome or Sarum. Are the dreaded fiddlebacks used or do we favour something,um, well,you know, a little Gothic ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
quote:Well, no, that might have been your intention, but this is hell, where the globalised presence of God meanders a bit.
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:For goodness' sake, the whole point of this thread is that It is a lot more than a simple communion wafer. It has been consecrated so is the Sacramental Localised Presence of God!
Originally posted by Justinian:
I think we (and God) have bigger things to worry about than what people are doing with communion wafers.
quote:Most men would regard being inserted in such a place as a less unpleasant experience than being eaten.
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Might be common assault, although you'd actually have to prove that the bread was no longer bread and was a human being, and if you go down that line, you end up with multiple charges of s.20 serious wounding, wot with all those people biting him.
quote:Because I have done so for five years and see no reason not to.
Originally posted by Thurible:
Fiddleback,
Why do you allow her to do so?
quote:He comes to mass on weekdays. I think he doesn't come on Sunday because there is something he listens to on the wireless.
Could asking her why she does it not provide an pastoral opportunity to minister to her husband?
quote:I missed the bit about the woman trying to put the host in her purse. Could you point me to where that is please?
Originally posted by shareman:
I think 103 acted tactlessly, Anglicans should be more seemly
quote:So the choices are that anyone who acts as she did is either gauche or disrespectful? I still think the situation is complex enough to generate a few other possibilities, as have already been covered on the thread. You also say that you wouldn't have the temerity to take part in rituals you don't understand. Well, I don't understand the mysteries of the Eucharist - and I wouldn't be inclined to believe anyone if they told me they did. I suggest that what you mean is 'if people aren't familiar with the way we do things, they should leave well alone', which is a different debate altogether.
Come on! I have attended other churches, indeed the worship services of other religions. I have tried to find out what would be happening and the meaning behind it before I went. If I didn't, I didn't have the temerity to take part in rituals I didn't understand. That's just disrespectful. Unless of course she DID understand and was just being gauche.
quote:People go into Anglican churches 'not understanding a thing about what's going on but presuming to take part anyway' all the time. Yes, admittedly mostly in baptisms, weddings, funerals, high days and holy days. But even in our little rural outpost we get a steady stream of visitors who drop in, often on spec, quite a few of whom are totally unfamiliar with either church or our way of doing church.
I think she has some responsibility for the situation, not that 103 handled it all that well, but, as has been said, he's young and needs to learn tact. I should think that people wandering into an Anglican church in England, not understanding a thing about what was going on, and presuming to take part anyway is at least as rare an occurrance as Satanists stealing the Host for nefarious purposes. The young (which she was not) unchurched might not understand much about Christianity, but surely to God other people's religious beliefs deserve respect.
quote:
It is more important than the feelings of someone who couldn't be arsed to show a bit of respect for someone else's religious traditions.
quote:Shareman, you don't know what her attitude was. You don't know if she was being disrespectful, so you can't state categorically she was. Her crime was not eating the host immediately at reception (or wouldn't have done apparently); she didn't moon the altar, or blow raspberry tarts during the sermon.
QLooked at another way, why are the feelings of someone who doesn't have enough respect for people's religious beliefs to try to understand what she is doing before she takes part in their rituals more important than the people whose beliefs she shows such disrespect for?
quote:My understanding of Fr. Fiddleback's sacramentology is such that he does believe he is so consecrating, so fuck right off, Erin, there's a dear.
Originally posted by Erin:
But don't we have to respect others' beliefs, Thurible? I mean, if Fiddleback doesn't consecrate the hosts with the intention of it being a little piece of Jesus in the flesh, you need to respect that belief. Otherwise, all your squawking in the OP is flat-out, bold-faced hypocrisy.
quote:Heavens no. I've been known to allow lady priestesses to officiate at Benediction.
Originally posted by Thurible:
Good to know that you could give a flying fuck about treating the Blessed Sacrament with decorum.
quote:That's just crazy talk. If you start making everyone feel welcome, you'll end up all sorts of undesirables in your church. If you let them challenge you, there's a risk of losing control of what people think. Next thing you know, there'll be women wanting to be priests.
Originally posted by Anselmina:
JFTR, sometimes there's nothing wrong with being made to feel welcome and comfortable during worship. Just as there's nothing necessarily bad about being challenged from time to time.
quote:They're my favourite kind! Their frocks are always so much more lacy and ooh la la! than anything I wear
Originally posted by Thurible:
As opposed to male priestesses?
!
quote:You're so right. What was I thinking
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:That's just crazy talk. If you start making everyone feel welcome, you'll end up all sorts of undesirables in your church. If you let them challenge you, there's a risk of losing control of what people think. Next thing you know, there'll be women wanting to be priests.
Originally posted by Anselmina:
JFTR, sometimes there's nothing wrong with being made to feel welcome and comfortable during worship. Just as there's nothing necessarily bad about being challenged from time to time.
Better to nip it in the bud.
?
quote:Well CLEARLY his sacramentology is at odds with yours -- at the very least, he doesn't have a stroke when someone walks away from the altar without having proved they've swallowed -- so you need to shut the fuck up and start respecting other peoples' beliefs.
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:My understanding of Fr. Fiddleback's sacramentology is such that he does believe he is so consecrating, so fuck right off, Erin, there's a dear.
Originally posted by Erin:
But don't we have to respect others' beliefs, Thurible? I mean, if Fiddleback doesn't consecrate the hosts with the intention of it being a little piece of Jesus in the flesh, you need to respect that belief. Otherwise, all your squawking in the OP is flat-out, bold-faced hypocrisy.
Thurible
quote:Damn straight! We don't want people thinking that they're acceptable in God's house! What is the matter with you heathens?
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Honest to God what is with all this "making people feel welcome" bollocks. They are there to offer up a sacrifice of Praise and Worship not have a nice little chat or have a warm wet moment. Get a grip you whiney fuckers.
P
quote:This is making me think of menstrual cups for some reason. I need to go wash my mind now.
Originally posted by ReginaShoe:
"No, I don't want to worship THAT Antichrist, I want to worship the one from the 'Left Behind' novels! And I'm standing up for my right to desecrate those stupid little mini-saltines and plastic cups that I always got at First Assembly of God in Pleasantville!")
quote:And, if so, can I nominate "Mission Praise" and anything containing "Shine Jesus Shine"?
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:Damn straight! We don't want people thinking that they're acceptable in God's house! What is the matter with you heathens?
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Honest to God what is with all this "making people feel welcome" bollocks. They are there to offer up a sacrifice of Praise and Worship not have a nice little chat or have a warm wet moment. Get a grip you whiney fuckers.
P
Although I don't quite get how "Praise and Worship" should be "a sacrifice". Do you slaughter hymnals on the altar?
quote:There is an orifice joke in this somewhere, but I'm sure people would get really offended.
Originally posted by Scot:
See, Anselmina? Pyx_e gets it.
quote:A nice Powerpoint presentation would do the trick.
Originally posted by Erin:
... Although I don't quite get how "Praise and Worship" should be "a sacrifice". Do you slaughter hymnals on the altar?
quote:Respect is not the same thing as decorum. I suggest you contemplate the difference between the two.
Originally posted by Thurible:
I know - me too. It's disgusting how we all respect that which we believe to be Our Lord, isn't it!
Thurible
quote:Actually, sonny, I am an out-and-out mindless Anglo-Papalist transubstantiationist. That means my 'sacramentology' is not what yours would appear to be.
Originally posted by Thurible:
My understanding of Fr. Fiddleback's sacramentology is such that he does believe he is so consecrating, so fuck right off, Erin, there's a dear.
quote:Erin, shush! Don't put ideas into their heads!
Do you slaughter hymnals on the altar?
quote:Actually, I believe they once killed Him. He didn't stay dead, though, so perhaps that supports your point.
Originally posted by Justinian:
Are humans powerful enough to directly hurt God?
quote:Yeah, try to be more like Erin in that regard, wouldja?
Originally posted by Erin:
you need to shut the fuck up and start respecting other peoples' beliefs.
quote:Hyperbole, dear, born out of frustration that no-one seemed to have thought that she was anything other than a poor lost soul. Or a nasty Satanist.
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I missed the bit about the woman trying to put the host in her purse. Could you point me to where that is please?
quote:Agree on all points.
In fact, the problem probably arose because the situation was many-layered, and the people involved were complex human beings.
JFTR, sometimes there's nothing wrong with being made to feel welcome and comfortable during worship. Just as there's nothing necessarily bad about being challenged from time to time.
quote:No, there are others, all far better considered on this thread than these two. I didn't feel the need to rehash the arguments of the preceding 6 pages.
So the choices are that anyone who acts as she did is either gauche or disrespectful?
quote:Well, no, not leave well alone. Regardless of the theology of the sacrament, the Eucharist is at base a meal. It is beastly to be rude (a la 103)to the other guests at a dinner to which one has been invited. It is also not particularly polite not to pay attention to the ettiquette and table manners expected of the other dinner guests and to act accordingly, no matter how welcome the Host has made you feel. If another guest reaches in front of you at dinner and drags his sleeve in your soup, you have a right to correct him, I think, but in such a way as not to embarrass him, the host, or yourself. Of course that's not what 103 did in this instance, my issue is not with what he did, but how he did it.
I suggest that what you mean is 'if people aren't familiar with the way we do things, they should leave well alone', which is a different debate altogether.
quote:And I suspect they have some sense that while all are guests at the meal, the locals have been there more than once and are familiar with the local etiquette. I would imagine most of them behave with the decorum they see around them. Or do all the people who visit your church do what they like? If so, how do you handle the disruptions?
People go into Anglican churches 'not understanding a thing about what's going on but presuming to take part anyway' all the time. Yes, admittedly mostly in baptisms, weddings, funerals, high days and holy days. But even in our little rural outpost we get a steady stream of visitors who drop in, often on spec, quite a few of whom are totally unfamiliar with either church or our way of doing church.
quote:No, unfamiliarity isn't the same thing as disrespect. I would suggest though, that when you go to a church with which you are unfamiliar, then perhaps it behooves you to at least try to notice what others are doing, how they behave, what level of reverence they have, and try to act accordingly. If you were to wander into a mosque in the middle of Friday prayers and strayed into the area meant for the other gender, how would you feel if some young intense thing hissed at you to go to the other area? For my part, I'd probably think s/he had been a bit rude, but I had been ruder to think I could just walk in without paying attention.
You seem to be saying that unfamiliarity is somehow equal to disrespect, that people 'dare' to join in with Christian worship, despite not having first served whatever apprenticeship it is you imagine they need to complete. There are plenty of churches that do indeed operate in this way. For me one of the attractions of most Anglican worship is that it generally doesn't operate like this.
Now I know God can look after Himself, but I still think we have a right to expect visitors to show some respect. Maybe this lady was confused and uncomfortable and did what she thought best at the time. I think 103 was harsh, but are you suggesting no-one had a right or a responsibility to explain to her in some fashion that what she did wasn't appropriate?quote:Of course he didn't, but then again he gave no indication that she appeared to be the poor ickle lost soul so many seem to have taken her for either.
quote:Once again, please direct me to where 103 said this was the woman's known attitude. If this is indeed the case I'll happily agree with this point.
It is more important than the feelings of someone who couldn't be arsed to show a bit of respect for someone else's religious traditions.
quote:Due respect, neither do you. I am merely suggesting that she has some responsibility to at least observe the behaviour of those around her before taking part in a ritual she doesn't understand, and to take her cue from their behaviour. If you go to a church that is not part of your tradition, what do you do? I'd venture to bet that you show some sensitivity to the fact that you are on unfamiliar ground and act accordingly so as not to upset those for whom this is familiar. Why then should she not have been expected to behave the same way. I repeat, it could have been handled in a manner that would not have embarrassed her or made her feel unwelcome, but I still think that she has some responsibility to behave in a way that shows respect for the religious beliefs of those around her.
quote:Shareman, you don't know what her attitude was. You don't know if she was being disrespectful, so you can't state categorically she was.
QLooked at another way, why are the feelings of someone who doesn't have enough respect for people's religious beliefs to try to understand what she is doing before she takes part in their rituals more important than the people whose beliefs she shows such disrespect for?
quote:Oh, please, that's a tad extreme. All I am suggesting is that there are a couple of other possible explanations for this lady's behaviour than 1) she is a poor lost seeker who meekly attempted to feast at the Banquet of the Lord and was cruelly rebuffed or 2) she was a Satanist attempting to turn the Host into a sex toy. One of these is that she went to a church where she didn't understand the tradition and attempted to take part. She made an error of practice and was dealt with harshly. One reason for this might be that she didn't care enough about the religious sensibilities of those around her to try to find out what she was doing before she did it. No-one seemed to have considered this. That and the remarks of some who seem to feel that respect for the Sacrament as expressed in some churches is a bit silly and can't be expected to take precedence over how people actually feel drove me to be a bit flowery in my expression. Ooooops!
You know, if ever an attitude such as yours became widespread I'd be astonished if anyone, ever, at anytime, including the faithful, dared to go anywhere near a church.
quote:Bite me, asshole. I already said that I don't think people should have to respect beliefs that they don't sign up to. But if I were the one who was harping on and on about how awful it was that my beliefs were disrespected I certainly would be practicing what I preached.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:Yeah, try to be more like Erin in that regard, wouldja?
Originally posted by Erin:
you need to shut the fuck up and start respecting other peoples' beliefs.
quote:Pssst.... Mousethief, Josephine, Fr. Gregory....
Normally the ship doesnt put me off any particular denomination (well sometimes maybe the orthodox with The Orthodox Plot, but I think I might just be comfortable with that now
quote:Leetle...you are so nice. Are you Dolphy's sock puppet?
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Emma has blurted out:
quote:Pssst.... Mousethief, Josephine, Fr. Gregory....
Normally the ship doesnt put me off any particular denomination (well sometimes maybe the orthodox with The Orthodox Plot, but I think I might just be comfortable with that now
I suggest, however, Emma, that you see how you feel after reading some of our other posts (see Thurible's new thread on Orthodox Hymnody), re-think that, and let the Plotters know if you still feel the same in the morning.
Leetle M.
"By their fruits, ye shall know them."
quote:I was just going to ask you, Og, if you were Erin's sockpuppet.
Are you Dolphy's sock puppet
quote:Yes. You're also supposed to fast before you take it. Or so I was brought up to believe.
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
Aren't you supposed to let it melt in your mouth,like butter or maltesers, you know instead of all that biting ?
quote:Oh for feck's sake. Don't ruin an otherwise sensible post. Satanists, such as there are, are schoolkids having a laugh. Most wouldn't know what a consecrated host is anyway.
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Yes, Satanists do acquire Consecrated Hosts for use - in some places it is quite a problem. But the slight risk is not so great as to excuse certain rudeness.
quote:And they parked their wad of chewing gum on the underside of the pew.
they probably had the Full English Breakfast just before they went.
quote:The Fiddlebackerie is clearly just a Jesus Take Away.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
One of my most faithful parishioners every Sunday morning breaks the host in half, consuming one half and putting the other in her handbag.
quote:What do God and M&Ms have in common?
Aren't you supposed to let it melt in your mouth,like butter or maltesers, you know instead of all that biting ?
quote:Obviously the schools in question were not teaching the kids on the importance of the Eucharist and therefore a 'whole school' Mass was not appropriate. Morning Worship is quite sufficient in a school envioroment with Mass as a separate service later for those who wish to recieve the sacrament or those who would wish to recieve a blessing.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:Oh for feck's sake. Don't ruin an otherwise sensible post. Satanists, such as there are, are schoolkids having a laugh. Most wouldn't know what a consecrated host is anyway.
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Yes, Satanists do acquire Consecrated Hosts for use - in some places it is quite a problem. But the slight risk is not so great as to excuse certain rudeness.
On the same subject, one gets the impression that few posters here have had much involvement with a typical Church of England or RC compehensive. When I was involved as a priest with a church comprehensive, at which there were two compulsory 'whole school' Eucharists a term, we always had to go around all the seats collecting the unconsumed hosts (usually about a dozen or so) that had been left inside hymn books or in flower arrangements (not sure how efficacious they are with cut flowers). Undoubtedly some left the building in pupils' pockets or bodily orifices, but there was not much we could do about it except leave God to sort it out. An RC friend reported much the same thing happening in the RC comp. in his parish.
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!
quote:If nothing else comes of this, at least 103's ability to grab people and hiss "Eat it now" will come in handy when he begins hanging out in less-than-reputable cinemas
I didn't yell - I hissed.
))
quote:So, just to recap, 103, in addition to being
Obviously the schools in question were not teaching the kids on the importance of the Eucharist and therefore a 'whole school' Mass was not appropriate. Morning Worship is quite sufficient in a school envioroment with Mass as a separate service later for those who wish to recieve the sacrament or those who would wish to recieve a blessing.
quote:Fair enough, Emma! I just couldn't bear to pass up the opportunity--your posts are so good and they further the discussion extremely well.
Orthodox Plot peeps... I wasnt talking about *this* thread
quote:The Orthodox require regular shining and polishing? How very high maintenance!
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Can we not have a bit of sniping, even in a thread about old biddies taking home Jesus to spread on their flower garden, without a bit of the "Shine Orthodox Shine" stuff?
quote:It's all the tat -- the fans, and the censers, and the candlestands, and all the altarware, and everything else that needs all the shining.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
The Orthodox require regular shining and polishing? How very high maintenance!
quote:Well I have spent most of my life in a school envioroment! I think I am qualified to say!
Originally posted by Sienna:
3. Expert on religious education who knows far more than priests about what should be done, and precisely what liturgies a school full of children are or are not qualified to attend.
Just want to make sure I'm keeping up.
quote:Oh really? I'm a bit older than 103, I'm 24, almost 25. I have spent virtually all my life in a school environment also, and intend to spend more of it when I get enough money saved up to go to law school. I am also of the opinion that it would be nice to one day get my masters and doctoral degrees in political science. In other words, I intend to spend a great deal more of my life in a school environment.
103, it's the fact that you've spent all your life in the school environment which makes you qualified to say about, oh, fuck all. It's life experience that gives folk added value. That'll happen when you grow up a wee bit.
quote:103, first off, get your code right.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Well I have spent most of my life in a school envioroment! I think I am qualified to say!
Originally posted by Sienna:
3. Expert on religious education who knows far more than priests about what should be done, and precisely what liturgies a school full of children are or are not qualified to attend.
Just want to make sure I'm keeping up.
And what the fuck is this about cinemas?
-103
[GET IT RIGHT!!! GET IT RIGHT, NOW!!!!]
quote:BTF - Don't be confused by the fact he goes to "college." That's a sixth form college, which is part of what we in the USA would call High School. It is not post-high school education.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I have happily left this debate, but just to clarify something in the last post, 103 has graduated high school.
As you were.
[ETA - cross-posted with Go Anne Go. My reference to the 'last post' refers to the post before the 'last post' - (sigh))
quote:True.
Originally posted by ONUnicorn:
Just because he is young and does not have as much formal education as someone else doesn't mean he isn't entitled to have an idea or opinion every once in a while.
quote:Thanks Go Anne Go.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
BTF - Don't be confused by the fact he goes to "college." That's a sixth form college, which is part of what we in the USA would call High School. It is not post-high school education.
quote:For goodness sake! When I visit other Christian churches outside my particular tradition, I usually go with a toddler. Much of my time during the service is spent keeping an eye on said toddler. I usually do this when my husband is duty deacon at our church and the alternative is not going to church at all.
One of these is that she went to a church where she didn't understand the tradition and attempted to take part. She made an error of practice and was dealt with harshly. One reason for this might be that she didn't care enough about the religious sensibilities of those around her to try to find out what she was doing before she did it. No-one seemed to have considered this. That and the remarks of some who seem to feel that respect for the Sacrament as expressed in some churches is a bit silly and can't be expected to take precedence over how people actually feel drove me to be a bit flowery in my expression. Ooooops!
Particuarly if we've gone to a church where the tradition is that the children stay in for most or all of the service. Thanks for making us feel welcome and all. And people wonder why the church is in decline ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:In the USA, once you graduate high school, you go to college, which is where you get your undergraduate degree. If you attend a university, that is a place which also awards post-graduate degrees. We do not have sixth forms. By US standards, 103 has not graduated high school.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
quote:Thanks Go Anne Go.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
BTF - Don't be confused by the fact he goes to "college." That's a sixth form college, which is part of what we in the USA would call High School. It is not post-high school education.
I am aware that college and sixth form are the same thing. I understand that on your side of the pond, college is also used to mean university, which is something I have learnt through the Ship, but I had thought that you used college to refer to university as well as sixth form rather than instead of. It seems I was wrong.
Here in the UK where 103 and I are, college or sixth form is post-high school education. Therefore, he has graduated high school.
quote:Bollocks. Absolute bollocks. The sixth form is part of High School. Its an optional part, sure. But its still definately school rather than higher education.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Here in the UK where 103 and I are, college or sixth form is post-high school education. Therefore, he has graduated high school.
quote:No, those are something quite different. Been a little sheltered?
Originally posted by Peronel:
Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.
quote:Who said it was part of higher education? It's further education - neither high school nor higher education.
The sixth form is part of High School. Its an optional part, sure. But its still definately school rather than higher education.
quote:The fact that some high schools have sixth forms attached is irrelevant.
The fact that in some areas sixth forms are consolidated into sixth form colleges is irrelevant.
!quote:I don’t think I qualify as Catholic-minded, but I’ll try.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
quote:But one shared by much of the Christian world, and (more importantly) the particular church service in which 103 was participating. If the belief is ‘fucking stupid’, you can criticise the whole Catholic and Catholic-minded church for turning up to Mass at all, but not for acting appropriately once they are there.
Originally posted by Erin:
It's a fucking stupid belief.
quote:I agree. By that time he’d had time to reflect and consider the possible injury to her feelings – even if he still thought that injury was necessary earlier, that’s no reason not to repair the damage afterwards. I would understand, though, if he was worrying about whether he’d been right, and just didn’t think to do this.
Originally posted by The Alchemist:
I imagine that I'd do something similar to 103 in the circumstances - I'd try to be as polite as I could, but in the heat of the moment I probably wouldn't do very well. However, I'd try to find the woman after the service and explain why I said what I said, and apologise for saying it rudely.
quote:I'd agree with this. But the first person to use 103's schooling to justify his opinions was 103 himself. Once he'd added to the thread, it's not unreasonable that people can comment.
Originally posted by Eliab:
I fail to see what difference 103's age or schooling makes to anyone who isn't a patronising wanker too lazy to consider an issue on its merits.
quote:First off, if he's so sure he's right, why does he need backup?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
quote:Awwwwww bless
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
This thread is getting stupid now from "eeeuuuughhh - Blasphemous Desecration on Ebay" to "Is 103 an absolute bastard and will he go to hell when he dies?" to "Let's call 103 a schoolboy and debate whether he is in high school or not"
Just fuck off the lot of you, you are really annoying me you stupid little moaning fucks. I think I was right and none of you have the right to tell me that I wasn't. You weren't there, you aren't me!
Go back to your little churches where you are allowed to take your communion home as a sovienier or to feed to your flowers and shut up now.
This thread has gone onto a meg@ tangent which is just stupid now.
quote:And in a delightful cross post, we now have "I was right and I know it!" number three by 103.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
This thread is getting stupid now from "eeeuuuughhh - Blasphemous Desecration on Ebay" to "Is 103 an absolute bastard and will he go to hell when he dies?" to "Let's call 103 a schoolboy and debate whether he is in high school or not"
Just fuck off the lot of you, you are really annoying me you stupid little moaning fucks. I think I was right and none of you have the right to tell me that I wasn't. You weren't there, you aren't me!
Go back to your little churches where you are allowed to take your communion home as a sovienier or to feed to your flowers and shut up now.
This thread has gone onto a meg@ tangent which is just stupid now.
-103
quote:Starts to tell you something about the training (or lack thereof????) 103 received, or even the care with with children are chosen for their lack of training down at this church.
It was lovely to see children serving, and I apologise wholeheartedly for my remarks if the servers have special needs, but if not, they do need to be drilled. The smaller acolyte spent the duration of his Gospel duty sliding down the end of the pew until he reached a sitting posture. He then took one leg off the ground, and rocked backwards and forwards and grinned at all and sundry. The other acolyte acquitted himself well enough during the Gospel, but once the altar party had moved to the east end, could be seen hanging almost upside down from the altar rail and pulling on the decorative metalwork. The boat girl flounced and posed. Children much younger than these can be seen serving unobtrusively, with with great gravitas and polish all over the land.
quote:Throw in a little grabbing and hissing, and indeed I do fear for them!
The distribution of communion was anarchical. There was a standing-only distribution point under the pulpit, and a kneeling one at the altar rail. There was an unseemly and thoroughly aggressive stampede as people left their pews and careered forwards, swapping from north to south and vice versa depending upon their preferred mode of reception. One feared for small children and fragile geriatrics.
quote:That would be relevant if 103 was an EM at an RC church. He isn't. It's an Anglican church. Although, from my understanding from various past discussions in MW/Eccles, it is far from representative of even most AC churches.
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Just as a final point of information, I would like to suggest that anyone interested in the appointment and function of Eucharistic Ministers in the Roman Catholic Church read the decree of Pope John Paul II entitled Redemptionis Sacramentum. see here
quote:What is the point, then?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Things have changed a lot since then. (It's now even more hectic now actually :S) but that's not the point!
-103
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
quote:If it's even more hectic, are you surprised that a visitor didn't know where the hell to go? And that - just maybe - she needed guidance rather than grabbing?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Things have changed a lot since then. (It's now even more hectic now actually :S) but that's not the point!
quote:True, Siegfried. I posted that for our Roman Catholic participants to read. Sorry that it was not relevant to the thread.
That would be relevant if 103 was an EM at an RC church. He isn't. It's an Anglican church.
quote:No worries. There just has been confusion earlier on the thread as to whether 103 was Anglican or RC.
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Siegfried correctly saysquote:True, Siegfried. I posted that for our Roman Catholic participants to read. Sorry that it was not relevant to the thread.
That would be relevant if 103 was an EM at an RC church. He isn't. It's an Anglican church.
Leetle M.
quote:Erm no. She had just recieved the Blood of Christ from me when I noticed that she was clutching onto the host. She moved very quickly away from me after recieving and she needed to stopped.
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:If it's even more hectic, are you surprised that a visitor didn't know where the hell to go? And that - just maybe - she needed guidance rather than grabbing?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Things have changed a lot since then. (It's now even more hectic now actually :S) but that's not the point!
Or are you still convinced that scaring her off was the right thing because, rather than just being confused by your "hectic" and unusual Anglican church, she just might have been planning on using Our Lord as a pessary?
Peronel.
quote:Vaginas generally don't.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
(OK, I really want to talk about vaginas and Satanism, but that discussion didn't seem to have legs).
quote:She may have been trying to be sure she got out of everyone else's way, and made it to a safe place, where she wouldn't be clobbered by an errant acolyte or someone cutting across to get to their preferred chalice, so that she could stand and quietly and reverently consume the host.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
What did she expect to do? It's quite a simple process!
quote:So would I
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
As amusing as it would be to speculate on whether 103rd will go to hell when he dies (which, it seems to me, is rather consequent on the degree of the Romish errors he accepts in due course), I want to return to blaspheming and desecration.
(OK, I really want to talk about vaginas and Satanism, but that discussion didn't seem to have legs).
quote:Well - It's not very dignified but I wouldn't go as far to say that it is blasphemous. Relics have always been traditionally traded amoung churches. In medieval times there was a HUGE trade for relics if I remember correctly!
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
So, back to Original Post.
Lots of people sell relics on e-bay. Is that blasphemous?
quote:He had no right to have it outside of church so of course it would!
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
If the person with the Pope's wafer had given it away, would that have been blasphemous?
quote:Again - he had no right to have it outside of church!
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Would it be less of a desceration if the previous owner of the Pope's wafer took it home and kept it wrapped in linen and kept a light burning before it?
quote:So things have gotten worse by your own admission, and when confronted with this, your highly immature reaction is "Oh! Go away!"
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Oh! Go away!
-103
I can't stand it. The horror! The horror! I'm nearly wetting myself picturing it! The chaos! The lack of training! The massive immaturity! The possible special needs of the children they pick for serving at the altar! Run for your lives! Women and children and frail first! quote:I think that's called solepsism
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three): <snip>
You weren't there, you aren't me!
<snip>
quote:WTF?!?!? Oh you can go away too!
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:I think that's called solepsism
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three): <snip>
You weren't there, you aren't me!
<snip>
quote:Somehow I don't think Ship of Fools would apprechiate that sort of Criminal Activity being discussed on it's website.
Originally posted by Peronel:
I'm pondering the possibility of sending MW hit squads to 103's church on daring, undercover, sacrament raids. Prizes for the most daring heist or the most improbable hiding place. That sort of thing.
Then we could all meet up afterwards for tea and currant buns, and tell stories of being hissed at.
I should know better than to post after midnight. Surrealness happens.
Peronel.
quote:Speaking as both a UK and US qualified lawyer, I say
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Somehow I don't think Ship of Fools would apprechiate that sort of Criminal Activity being discussed on it's website.
Originally posted by Peronel:
I'm pondering the possibility of sending MW hit squads to 103's church on daring, undercover, sacrament raids. Prizes for the most daring heist or the most improbable hiding place. That sort of thing.
Then we could all meet up afterwards for tea and currant buns, and tell stories of being hissed at.
I should know better than to post after midnight. Surrealness happens.
Peronel.
-103
quote:What can I say? I'm honest about what's going on at my church, and it's half past midnight and I'm posting on the Ship in order to put off finishing this horrible leaflet I have to do for R.S. about Abortion and the pros and the cons. (Don't get me started about Abortion, I get very depressed when I think about it)
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
You know, 103, similar to the way repeating "I was right and I know it" isn't working for you, this "Oh go away" repitition isn't exactly making you look any better either.
Of course, neither is the fact that the MW wasn't entirely complimentary about either the children or the eucharist in your church, and your admission that it is worse now.
quote:Come on now. I know currant buns aren't to everyone's taste, but criminal?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Somehow I don't think Ship of Fools would apprechiate that sort of Criminal Activity being discussed on it's website.
-103
quote:A "Sacrament Raid suggests" a robbery of some sort where you would go into the church when nobody is looking and try to steal the sacrament out of the tabernacle.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
quote:Speaking as both a UK and US qualified lawyer, I say
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Somehow I don't think Ship of Fools would apprechiate that sort of Criminal Activity being discussed on it's website.
Originally posted by Peronel:
I'm pondering the possibility of sending MW hit squads to 103's church on daring, undercover, sacrament raids. Prizes for the most daring heist or the most improbable hiding place. That sort of thing.
Then we could all meet up afterwards for tea and currant buns, and tell stories of being hissed at.
I should know better than to post after midnight. Surrealness happens.
Peronel.
-103
WHAT criminal activity??????????
Hate to break it to you but while not consuming the host right then and there may be against your personal canon law, once they hand it over, its a gift and they can't take it back.
Your battery in grabbing the woman, now....that's criminal activity.
quote:Not in the context of this thread it doesn't.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:A "Sacrament Raid suggests" a robbery of some sort where you would go into the church when nobody is looking and try to steal the sacrament out of the tabernacle.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
quote:Speaking as both a UK and US qualified lawyer, I say
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Somehow I don't think Ship of Fools would apprechiate that sort of Criminal Activity being discussed on it's website.
Originally posted by Peronel:
I'm pondering the possibility of sending MW hit squads to 103's church on daring, undercover, sacrament raids. Prizes for the most daring heist or the most improbable hiding place. That sort of thing.
Then we could all meet up afterwards for tea and currant buns, and tell stories of being hissed at.
I should know better than to post after midnight. Surrealness happens.
Peronel.
-103
WHAT criminal activity??????????
Hate to break it to you but while not consuming the host right then and there may be against your personal canon law, once they hand it over, its a gift and they can't take it back.
Your battery in grabbing the woman, now....that's criminal activity.
-103
quote:I do so love a good current bun, me.
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:Come on now. I know currant buns aren't to everyone's taste, but criminal?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Somehow I don't think Ship of Fools would apprechiate that sort of Criminal Activity being discussed on it's website.
-103
quote:I believe the ebay sales typically emphasise that they're selling the reliquary and that the relic is just a gift, presumably for just that reason. Have to say that that doesn't make it any the less distasteful in my book.
Originally posted by Sienna:
According to the article here, it's a serious crime, strictly forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church, to sell a first-class relic (the article identifies the particular canon, etc). This article is especially addressing internet sales.
quote:Ah, but that's canon law, not English law.
Originally posted by Sienna:
According to the article here, it's a serious crime, strictly forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church, to sell a first-class relic (the article identifies the particular canon, etc). This article is especially addressing internet sales.
If I remember my "weird medieval factoids" correctly, King Charles of France had a dinner party in the late 14th century where he handed out the ribs of his sainted ancestor Louis as gifts to his honored guests.
quote:I wonder if the sauce was spicy, sweet, or both?
Originally posted by Sienna:
If I remember my "weird medieval factoids" correctly, King Charles of France had a dinner party in the late 14th century where he handed out the ribs of his sainted ancestor Louis as gifts to his honored guests.
quote:Nahhh. I was imagining something much more along the lines of an ecclesiastical version of the Scarlet Pimpernel. Or perhaps Zorro.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
A "Sacrament Raid suggests" a robbery of some sort where you would go into the church when nobody is looking and try to steal the sacrament out of the tabernacle.
-103
quote:I guess everyone has one or two mind-bogglingly ugly vases given to them by assorted elderly maiden aunts. Ettiquete forbids throwing them away. Instead, they must be carefully stored, then brought out and put on proud display whenever the giver visits.
Originally posted by Sienna:
I'm just warped enough to try to imagine the thank-you note composed within the prescribed amount of time after the party.
"Gracious Sovereign, thank you SO very much for the lovely rib. It's certainly a unique gift that added much to the flavor of our evening. I'm sure the Duke and I will enjoy it for many, many years."
quote:Raisin cakes!!!
Originally posted by Peronel:
Then we could all meet up afterwards for tea and currant buns, and tell stories of being hissed at.
quote:I thought raisin cakes were for Goddess worship? I'm so confused.
Originally posted by Manda:
Raisin cakes!!!
It definitely is Satanism then
quote:St. Paul seemed to think that they could be downright harmful if not deadly to people who didn't have the right sort of faith. But I suppose we are more sophisticated nowadays than that simple first-century nonsense.
Originally posted by Gort:
I am of the opinion that the moment the eucharist touches the lips of an unbeliever it becomes plain ole bread and wine. Isn't faith in communion the foundation of the act? Since when did symbols take on a life of their own and glow in the dark?
quote:Ah, probably (I wouldn't really know), but the black mass 103 linked to seemed to overlap in some of the symbolism with the Goddess worship, oh, no, I've been reading too much Da Vinci code again
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:I thought raisin cakes were for Goddess worship? I'm so confused.
Originally posted by Manda:
Raisin cakes!!!
It definitely is Satanism then
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
quote:Holy party favors! What a brilliant idea! Such a more personal touch than handing out the banquet flower arrangements.
Originally posted by Sienna:
According to the article here, it's a serious crime, strictly forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church, to sell a first-class relic (the article identifies the particular canon, etc). This article is especially addressing internet sales.
If I remember my "weird medieval factoids" correctly, King Charles of France had a dinner party in the late 14th century where he handed out the ribs of his sainted ancestor Louis as gifts to his honored guests.
quote:The Isrealites turned away from God and ate the sacred raisin cakes.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:I thought raisin cakes were for Goddess worship? I'm so confused.
Originally posted by Manda:
Raisin cakes!!!
It definitely is Satanism then
quote:Maybe someone could be sued for nicking the host, because it could be construed as a violation of the implied EULA?
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
quote:Speaking as both a UK and US qualified lawyer, I say
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Somehow I don't think Ship of Fools would apprechiate that sort of Criminal Activity being discussed on it's website.
Originally posted by Peronel:
I'm pondering the possibility of sending MW hit squads to 103's church on daring, undercover, sacrament raids. Prizes for the most daring heist or the most improbable hiding place. That sort of thing.
Then we could all meet up afterwards for tea and currant buns, and tell stories of being hissed at.
I should know better than to post after midnight. Surrealness happens.
Peronel.
-103
WHAT criminal activity??????????
Hate to break it to you but while not consuming the host right then and there may be against your personal canon law, once they hand it over, its a gift and they can't take it back.
Your battery in grabbing the woman, now....that's criminal activity.
quote:Try to pay attention, heathen scum. This is so obvious I'm embarassed on your behalf that I even have to say this. The correct wine to go with the Body of Christ is the Blood of Christ.
Originally posted by RooK:
So, since you've got the body of christ in your mouth, is the correct wine a Chianti?
quote:They don't.
And where do the fava beans come into it?
quote:Sounds like Voodoo to me; but of course I'm fairly unsophisticated.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
St. Paul seemed to think that they could be downright harmful if not deadly to people who didn't have the right sort of faith. But I suppose we are more sophisticated nowadays than that simple first-century nonsense.
quote:
"Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you to conjure up
the stolen data tapes..."
quote:Actually those words were spoken not BY Darth Vader, but TO Darth Vader, by a man who was immediately thereupon strangled by Darth Vader from across the room, using the ancient religion in question. This hardly seems to support your case.
Originally posted by Gort:
Still I think our Lord Darth Vader's comments apply here:quote:
"Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you to conjure up
the stolen data tapes..."
quote:As I said before - taking the Pope-consecrated wafer home, lighting candles etc. etc is veneration but it is missing out on the point of the Mass and of Holy Communion big time. The same point applies to giving it away. Then there's the question of simony and selling the sacraments by selling a consecrated host. IIRC simony caused all sorts of problems for the Catholic Church, starting with that Luther chap and going on from there... it's a sensitive subject, you know.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
As amusing as it would be to speculate on whether 103rd will go to hell when he dies (which, it seems to me, is rather consequent on the degree of the Romish errors he accepts in due course), I want to return to blaspheming and desecration.
(OK, I really want to talk about vaginas and Satanism, but that discussion didn't seem to have legs).
So, back to Original Post.
Lots of people sell relics on e-bay. Is that blasphemous?
If the person with the Pope's wafer had given it away, would that have been blasphemous?
Would it be less of a desceration if the previous owner of the Pope's wafer took it home and kept it wrapped in linen and kept a light burning before it?
quote:I think I may have been the only person to have taken any notice of it.
Originally posted by Hooker's TrickBack to the Original Post. Do you suppose the purchaser of the papal host ate it when it arrived? Did he genuflect as the postman came up the walk?
Does Ritual Notes have a section for dealing with a Host in the post?
Can we talk among ourselves? quote:You're right. Guess Voodoo works.
Actually those words were spoken not BY Darth Vader, but TO Darth Vader, by a man who was immediately thereupon strangled by Darth Vader from across the room, using the ancient religion in question. This hardly seems to support your case.
quote:No, I think Jesus can take care of Himself and I'm quite sure whoever partakes of Him in the wrong spirit will likely get quite a surprise of some sort or other.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
St. Paul seemed to think that they could be downright harmful if not deadly to people who didn't have the right sort of faith. But I suppose we are more sophisticated nowadays than that simple first-century nonsense.
quote:Plus, you'll have crumbs in your cooch.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think if you muck around with the Elements in a more creative/ "blasphemous" way, you are pretty much your own Karma by virtue of being a childish idiot with a lack of meaningful ways to express your own angst/ whatever at religion.
quote:Thanks Duo for mentioning Luther and simony, you have given me a brilliant idea - selling indulgences on eBay. No need to actually transport anything physical to the purchaser, they just send you the money and you guarantee them fewer years of torment in the life to come. I guess you could make things interesting by asking them to confess to particular sins which you would then absolve for a price.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Then there's the question of simony and selling the sacraments by selling a consecrated host. IIRC simony caused all sorts of problems for the Catholic Church, starting with that Luther chap and going on from there... it's a sensitive subject, you know.
quote:Possible next lines:
Originally posted by Sienna:
"Gracious Sovereign, thank you SO very much for the lovely rib. It's certainly a unique gift that added much to the flavor of our evening. I'm sure the Duke and I will enjoy it for many, many years."
quote:It's what I lie on while watching TV. I hate it when there are crackers or crumbs.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Do I want to know what a "cooch" is?
quote:I don't think anyone is saying that you didn't do the best you could given your obvious inexperience and under dificult circumstances. It is not that we are taking issue with- it is the pride with which you speak of driving away people from the Church.
103 wrote:
Just fuck off the lot of you, you are really annoying me you stupid little moaning fucks. I think I was right and none of you have the right to tell me that I wasn't. You weren't there, you aren't me!
quote:Grow up you irritating little squit. If you really don't want to read this thread then don't. If you don't want to be targetted in Hell, either don't post or think before posting.
Oh! Go away!
-103
quote:Advice to man at bottom of hole: Stop Digging!
WTF?!?!? Oh you can go away too!
-103
quote:Ah but does it make any difference *which* set of lip it touches?
Originally posted by Gort:
I am of the opinion that the moment the eucharist touches the lips of an unbeliever it becomes plain ole bread and wine.
quote:It's Geordie for "couch". You really should get oot an aboot in the country a bit more, Pyx_e.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:It's what I lie on while watching TV.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Do I want to know what a "cooch" is?
quote:No. It's not much fun being publicly upbraided for one's behaviour, is it?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Just fuck off the lot of you, you are really annoying me you stupid little moaning fucks. I think I was right and none of you have the right to tell me that I wasn't. You weren't there, you aren't me!
-103
quote:FWIW, I'd like to add something.
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Picks up toasting fork
Mentioning names of non-shipmates (e.g. someone's priest), or pointing out which church someone goes to is very off-limits, Amos.
Likewise, when planning raids on other peoples' churches, subtitles indicating its jokey status should probably be added, for the hard of humour.
Sarkycow, hellhost
quote:RL raid??? Um, didn't the Zorro references hint that I might not be entirely serious?
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Threatening a RL raid on someone's church is another matter. I wouldn't advise it. -103 lives in a rugby heartland amd I am sure he knows people who know people, if you get my drift.
quote:Ok, you know it's a joke and it looks like one to me but does it look like a joke to -103?
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:RL raid??? Um, didn't the Zorro references hint that I might not be entirely serious?
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Threatening a RL raid on someone's church is another matter. I wouldn't advise it. -103 lives in a rugby heartland amd I am sure he knows people who know people, if you get my drift.
Peronel.
quote:I apologize: of course it is off-limits. (If only 103 hadn't told us so often on the former MW Board which church he goes to: it seemed almost like part of the Ship's folklore--but that's no excuse, and I should have known better. Again, I apologize. I fucked up.)
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Picks up toasting fork
Mentioning names of non-shipmates (e.g. someone's priest), or pointing out which church someone goes to is very off-limits, Amos.
Likewise, when planning raids on other peoples' churches, subtitles indicating its jokey status should probably be added, for the hard of humour.
Sarkycow, hellhost
quote:I thought it was a type of shell. Or is that a conch? Either way, it's a bad place to put Jesus.
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So, did we ever find out what a cooch is?
quote:My understanding is:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So, did we ever find out what a cooch is?
quote:I imagine she would have!
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
The late Zsa Zsa Gabor once caused much unintended mirth on a British chat show by referring several times to her 'enormous fanny'.
quote:I find it one of those cross-pond variations which, even though I know about it in theory, always brings me up short. Like Lynette on Desperate Housewives yelling to her three boys "Get your fannies in here!" It just sounds utterly wrong.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:I imagine she would have!
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
The late Zsa Zsa Gabor once caused much unintended mirth on a British chat show by referring several times to her 'enormous fanny'.
(The US use is quite innocuous and is definitely chat-show legal.)
Charlotte
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
quote:What a bunch of bastards you are, I believed you when you told me you sat on the cooch. I was just about to ask Kelly if she had a 2 man or a 3 man cooch.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:My understanding is:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So, did we ever find out what a cooch is?
Cooch (US) = fanny (UK)
Gort seems to interpret it as = fanny (US) = bum (UK) but my mileage varies.
Charlotte
quote:Apple turnovers? I thought it was referring to fishcakes.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Another legendary televisual moment was when Ur-TV chef Fanny Craddock concluded her program in customary manner by wheeling on her brow-beaten husband Johnny to give his final verdict. "Mmmm", exorted Johnny,"I hope all your apple turnovers turn out like fannies". I think he had been waiting for years for that opprtunity. The show was axed soon after that.
quote:Actually I was under the impression that if the Sacred Species touched the lips of an unbeliever they turned into bloody flesh.
Originally posted by Gort:
I am of the opinion that the moment the eucharist touches the lips of an unbeliever it becomes plain ole bread and wine.
quote:We have to ask ourselves which idiot started this tangent.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
This thread is getting stupid now from "eeeuuuughhh - Blasphemous Desecration on Ebay" to "Is 103 an absolute bastard and will he go to hell when he dies?" to "Let's call 103 a schoolboy and debate whether he is in high school or not"
This thread has gone onto a meg@ tangent which is just stupid now.
quote:Why do you think Brits always laugh when, instead of referring to bumbags, Americans talk about putting things in their "fanny-packs"?
Originally posted by Paige:
"Fanny" as a term for female genitalia is a new one on me. I learn a lot here.
quote:"a great mind", even.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
...then he laughed and said she was cute and that he had a great main to slap her on her fanny.
quote:She should have asked him if he could spare a fag.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
A friend of mine was visiting her sister in New York, and, at the airport, asked for directions to the toilet. The man she asked looked at her as thought she'd just farted, and said "you mean the bathroom?" She replied "No, I mean the toilet - I don't want a bath", then he laughed and said she was cute and that he had a great main to slap her on her fanny. She was mortified until she told her sister later on what had happened, and had explained to her that he meant her bum.
quote:I figured it was for those Black Magicians how preferred to enter from the rear. *shrug*
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I'm sorry for a third post, but this has just dawned on me. Do you mean that there may have been people who have been reading all of this thread, who have seen the references to people nicking hosts and inserting them into their fannies as meaning that they were shoving them up their arses?
quote:That, or exerting a certain degree of muscle control holding it between their nether cheeks!
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I'm sorry for a third post, but this has just dawned on me. Do you mean that there may have been people who have been reading all of this thread, who have seen the references to people nicking hosts and inserting them into their fannies as meaning that they were shoving them up their arses?
quote:*A-hem*
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:What a bunch of bastards you are, I believed you when you told me you sat on the cooch. I was just about to ask Kelly if she had a 2 man or a 3 man cooch.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:My understanding is:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So, did we ever find out what a cooch is?
Cooch (US) = fanny (UK)
Gort seems to interpret it as = fanny (US) = bum (UK) but my mileage varies.
quote:And who better than someone with a screen name of Back-to-Front to point this out?!!
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I'm sorry for a third post, but this has just dawned on me. Do you mean that there may have been people who have been reading all of this thread, who have seen the references to people nicking hosts and inserting them into their fannies as meaning that they were shoving them up their arses?
quote:Ah! An evening to remember!
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:*A-hem*
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:What a bunch of bastards you are, I believed you when you told me you sat on the cooch. I was just about to ask Kelly if she had a 2 man or a 3 man cooch.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:My understanding is:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So, did we ever find out what a cooch is?
Cooch (US) = fanny (UK)
Gort seems to interpret it as = fanny (US) = bum (UK) but my mileage varies.
*coff*
Charlotte
quote:Here's one for starters. I went to ebay and searched "indulgence." Lots of different products come up.
Originally posted by Zwingli:
quote:Thanks Duo for mentioning Luther and simony, you have given me a brilliant idea - selling indulgences on eBay. No need to actually transport anything physical to the purchaser, they just send you the money and you guarantee them fewer years of torment in the life to come. I guess you could make things interesting by asking them to confess to particular sins which you would then absolve for a price.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Then there's the question of simony and selling the sacraments by selling a consecrated host. IIRC simony caused all sorts of problems for the Catholic Church, starting with that Luther chap and going on from there... it's a sensitive subject, you know.
quote:Wel I used to use Immac, but I now refuse to on principle since they changed the name.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
B2F, she seemed pretty assured in handling the axe. However, as to shaving...
quote:I think there may have been some Chinese Whispers about that one. The version I was told was that Johnny said "I hope your fishcakes taste like fannies" which he may not have said, but is still by far the funniest account.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Sorry, you're right. Fishcakes. Johnny was very wicked. I believe he got three of his fingers broken after the show.
quote:Indeed. The version that still makes me snigger was Johnny saying "And may all your tarts come up like Fanny's".
Originally posted by Spike:
]I think there may have been some Chinese Whispers about that one. The version I was told was that Johnny said "I hope your fishcakes taste like fannies" which he may not have said, but is still by far the funniest account.
)? At any rate I second the proposal to immortalize this thread in limbo.quote:There's been a bit of blithering about 103's maturity blah blah blah but - while I disagree with many if not all of his views, I reckon he did real good to withstand the roasting that was delivered him. Is a
(103 - handsomely said. Happy to consider the subject of your church and that incident dropped)
likely to melt in hell? quote:"Kegel Your Way to a Profitable Convent Business"
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
So that's how th nuns who make them get them so flat!
Mother Superior: and knead and clench and knead and clench and knead...
quote:Quite right.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
(To the pix of Kelly with an Axe)
nuff said.
quote:I don't recommend it for detail work, to put it mildly.
Just how precise are you with that thing, and could you have saved me shaving down there earlier on?
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
quote:Which is why Kelly is not invited to our NEXT bris.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Charlotte, it took me forever to clean up the driveway afterwards!
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
quote:Which is why Kelly is not invited to our NEXT bris.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Charlotte, it took me forever to clean up the driveway afterwards!
quote:On so many levels: Grow up.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
If he's Anglican, then why the need for the fuss? If I'm correct (and I speak as a member of the ECUSA, which is part of the Anglican comunion) we don't even believe in transubstantiation. It is more than symbolic, but less than transubstantiation. In short, it is not for us to know how Christ is present in the host.
But still more than anything, I am upset with 103s attitude. What will happen the next time? He'll start vaulting the rail, chasing them down the aisle and rugby tackling them?
Someone so rude and immature should NOT be entrusted with the host.
quote:Every communion I've been to in the United Methodist Church, with one exception, was a joint service with an Episcopal Church. To avoid using the jiggers and "offending" us, they distributed communion by intinction. Soggy white bread wasn't supposed to offend Episcopalians?
Originally posted by Erin:
Cause I can't be arsed, in much the same way that you won't wander on down to the local Methodist Church and repeat your bullshit line about soggy lumps of Mother's Pride.
quote:I thought that is the encouragement 103 was giving...EAT IT, NOW!! I don't see a problem.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
...I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
quote:You really haven't got the hang of Hell; encouragement belongs in All Saints. 103 foolishly put something on a discussion board and then got annoyed when it was discussed.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
quote:Today:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't feel that the discussion of the ebay badness will be helped by any further discussion of my actions, and to that end I am now withdrawing from the thread.
quote:To withdraw from a thread and then, less than 24 hours later, to return to it shows a certain lack of suaveness.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Just a little link for y'all
Cough
-103
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
put something on a discussion board and then got annoyed when it was discussed.
quote:I think it was the accompanying assault that was the problem.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:I thought that is the encouragement 103 was giving...EAT IT, NOW!! I don't see a problem.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
...I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
quote:Just out of interest can I ask what you would suggest I do next time?
Originally posted by Lurker McLurker™:
quote:I think it was the accompanying assault that was the problem.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:I thought that is the encouragement 103 was giving...EAT IT, NOW!! I don't see a problem.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
...I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
And the likelihood that someone was driven away from church because of it. We can debate about the Real Presence all we like, but I'm sure almost all of us would agree that Christians are the Body of Christ, and driving someone away from that body is a very serious business.
I'm sure that Satan would be happier about someone quitting going to church than he would be about some idiots doing unspeakable things with a consecrated host (if such things actually happen).
Splitting the Church beats blasphemy any day.
Well done, 103.
Fuckwit.
[added bold and italic text to make it even more overblown]
quote:Yes.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Am I being sanctimonious?
)
quote:Personally, I would let it go, as what people do with the elements is between them and God. Notice that when St Paul talks about people taking communion in an unworthy manner he is talking about their own consciences. I would let it go, and speak to her afterwards if I got a chance. I can't see any other constructive, loving, practical thing to do. But that is obviously not something you are prepared to do.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Just out of interest can I ask what you would suggest I do next time?
Keep in mind that the rules are that I should not let anything like that go unnoticed and that it is my responsibility to make sure that each communicant has consumed the host before they leave the sanctuary!
quote:No you're not, and good for you for saying it. While I disagree with 103's original action, I think his behavior in this thread has shown infinitely more maturity than I would have been capable of at his age, or for many years afterwards. Way to go, 103.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
At this point I'm going to join the other chorus. I don't think we should all be leaping and clobbering younger members like Henry 103 and Thurible. We were all teenagers once, and we were all arseholes who thought the grownups were stupid. Point out their mistakes, but cut them a bit of slack. They represent an age group that is barely represented in the church these days, so should receive a little bit more encouragement than they seem to get here.
Am I being sanctimonious?
quote:Have you been reading this thread with your eyes closed?
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
While I disagree with 103's original action, I think his behavior in this thread has shown infinitely more maturity than I would have been capable of at his age, or for many years afterwards. Way to go, 103.
quote:No, I've been reading it with my blinders off. Try removing yours, it'll do wonders for the view.
Originally posted by Lurker McLurker™:
quote:Have you been reading this thread with your eyes closed?
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
While I disagree with 103's original action, I think his behavior in this thread has shown infinitely more maturity than I would have been capable of at his age, or for many years afterwards. Way to go, 103.
quote:Oh, please. Fiddleback, sweetcakes, this is the only place in the world™ where I am not obliged to be extra, extra nice about every little thing any child does in church on the grounds that to do otherwise would be 'disempowering'. Face it. There are some kids out there who badly need disempowering.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
At this point I'm going to join the other chorus. I don't think we should all be leaping and clobbering younger members like Henry 103 and Thurible. We were all teenagers once, and we were all arseholes who thought the grownups were stupid. Point out their mistakes, but cut them a bit of slack. They represent an age group that is barely represented in the church these days, so should receive a little bit more encouragement than they seem to get here.
Am I being sanctimonious?
quote:<croons>
Do you remember anything about being 17?
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
quote:Only in a good way.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Am I being sanctimonious?
quote:Only when you are awake.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Am I being sanctimonious?
quote:Explain to the person quietly and respectfully the correct practice for taking communion in your church. And them make sure they consume the bread in front of you.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Just out of interest can I ask what you would suggest I do next time?
Originally posted by Lurker McLurker™:
quote:I think it was the accompanying assault that was the problem.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:I thought that is the encouragement 103 was giving...EAT IT, NOW!! I don't see a problem.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
...I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
And the likelihood that someone was driven away from church because of it. We can debate about the Real Presence all we like, but I'm sure almost all of us would agree that Christians are the Body of Christ, and driving someone away from that body is a very serious business.
I'm sure that Satan would be happier about someone quitting going to church than he would be about some idiots doing unspeakable things with a consecrated host (if such things actually happen).
Splitting the Church beats blasphemy any day.
Well done, 103.
Fuckwit.
[added bold and italic text to make it even more overblown]
Keep in mind that the rules are that I should not let anything like that go unnoticed and that it is my responsibility to make sure that each communicant has consumed the host before they leave the sanctuary!
-103
It's also worth bearing in mind that many adults believe the same about teenagers quote:Perhaps some people think it's holey communion?
Originally posted by Lurker McLurker™:
... working on the assumption that this person is going to desecrate the wafer rather than eat it in her seat ...
quote:I didn't realise it was possible for people to be as immature as 103 at his age. You must have been a real pain.
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
No you're not, and good for you for saying it. While I disagree with 103's original action, I think his behavior in this thread has shown infinitely more maturity than I would have been capable of at his age, or for many years afterwards. Way to go, 103.
quote:Nightlamp,
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:I didn't realise it was possible for people to be as immature as 103 at his age. You must have been a real pain.
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
No you're not, and good for you for saying it. While I disagree with 103's original action, I think his behavior in this thread has shown infinitely more maturity than I would have been capable of at his age, or for many years afterwards. Way to go, 103.
quote:Which makes me think you still haven't woken up to how much of an arsehole you are -- you must still be a real pain.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I didn't realise it was possible for people to be as immature as 103 at his age. You must have been a real pain.
quote:Well, except that all he apologized for was being a little shit in this discussion. He still asserts his utter correctness in assaulting and humiliating another person at the altar.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
The point is that young Henry HAS APOLOGISED - not particularly graciously, perhaps - but he has apologised. Do we need to keep shitting on him?
His intention was not wrong, but his manner was, and was derived from the usual teenage belief, with which I know that you are very familiar, that all adults are stupid.
quote:The shitting had pretty near stopped following the apology. The conversation had moved on. I grant that it had mostly moved down hill, but it was no longer focused on 103.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
The point is that young Henry HAS APOLOGISED - not particularly graciously, perhaps - but he has apologised. Do we need to keep shitting on him?
quote:"There's always more where that came from...."
Do we need to keep shitting on him?
quote:This is Hell, not All Saints.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:"There's always more where that came from...."
Do we need to keep shitting on him?
---François Rabelais, paraphrased.
quote:Fortunately I am aware of this and you have made my day knowing I have annoyed you.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
you must still be a real pain.
quote:As I said, I wasn't prepared, it was my first time and I had to tell her to eat the host. I had no script, I just was following the rules in the way I thought was best. I do not feel that I did the wrong thing at all but if I was to repeat the event again I probably would approch the situation in a different angle, although I still would stop her and I still would tell her that she would have to eat the host in front of me. Rules are rules and they are not to be broken.
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:Well, except that all he apologized for was being a little shit in this discussion. He still asserts his utter correctness in assaulting and humiliating another person at the altar.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
The point is that young Henry HAS APOLOGISED - not particularly graciously, perhaps - but he has apologised. Do we need to keep shitting on him?
His intention was not wrong, but his manner was, and was derived from the usual teenage belief, with which I know that you are very familiar, that all adults are stupid.
103, you ask what you should have done: it's simple, really. Take her aside and explain that the custom of the church is to consume the host at the altar. If she still didn't behave, then get back to your job and mention it to the priest during the bits when you guys are cleaning up the altar before the end of the service. I am probably the rudest and don't-give-a-shit-about-other-peoplest person on the Ship and even I can figure that one out.
Of course, this all stems from my unwavering belief that no one should ever be turned or driven away from the altar for any reason whatsoever. Baptised or not, in good standing or not, whatever rules and restrictions a particular parish or congregation has make no difference.
quote:Here's a tip - dont take on Mousethief. What has happened to 103 will be mild in comparison.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:Fortunately I am aware of this and you have made my day knowing I have annoyed you.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
you must still be a real pain.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
quote:I hope you love Jesus enough to beat the crap out of the ignorant old bitch, if you had to, in order to keep her from leaving with him. If we had more of that sort of dedication in the church today, there'd be a lot less fucking around and breaking of rules.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I'm wondering actually if she had said "No I won't eat it" if I would actually go as far to ask her to give it back to me... I dunno I probably would get my PP to sort it then and there, on the other hand... I dunno!
Whatever would happen I wouldn't let her take it away unconsumed, I respect the Eucharist way too much to allow that.-103
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Here's a tip - dont take on Mousethief. What has happened to 103 will be mild in comparison.
Don't be fooled. He's a just big ole teddybear.
quote:Let me see if I can guess!
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Here's a tip - dont take on Mousethief. What has happened to 103 will be mild in comparison.
quote:You have driven me to prooftexting and I hate you for it.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Rules are rules and they are not to be broken.
quote:
In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions. Then he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
quote:Dude, you even suck at being a teenager. On the upside, you'd have been popular in Germany in 1940.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Rules are rules and they are not to be broken.
quote:You're giving "tips" to one of the Hellhosts, in Hell? Wind your brain, the clockwork seems to have run down.
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Here's a tip - dont take on Mousethief. What has happened to 103 will be mild in comparison.
quote:I can see it now: A row of glowering 6'4" enforcers at the alter, dark hooded robes with arms crossed over hidden tasers; beady threatening eyes staring from beneath sullen brows searching the faces of the approaching laity.
Originally posted by Scot:
I hope you love Jesus enough to beat the crap out of the ignorant old bitch, if you had to, in order to keep her from leaving with him. If we had more of that sort of dedication in the church today, there'd be a lot less fucking around and breaking of rules.
quote:The old Prayer Book - that would be 1549 would it? Not an expert, but I can't think of anything in the Communion Service that requires the host to be consumed in front of the Priest (Eucharistic Ministers not getting a mention in those days).
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
The rules are that the host has to be consumed in front of the eucharistic minister. IRC it's even in the old Prayer Book (Can a BCP User check that for me)
quote:So what do you do if a priest tries to reserve a host?
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up or worshipped.
quote:because in the earlier centuries, that's exactly what they had in the Great Church in Constantinople: 72 Enormous Deacons who specialized in crowd control--needed due to the presence of very many, rather aromatic, barbarian "tourists". Much incense was necessary throughout the first part of the liturgy, but most citizens of Constantinople were very fastidious and took a bath every day.
A row of glowering 6'4" enforcers
quote:Only the unconsecrated stuff.
Originally posted by Peronel:
Didn't one of the prayerbooks state that any left-overs (we're talking real bread, not wafers) could be taken home by the verger for his tea?
quote:(scroll down to near the bottom of the page)
And to take away the supersticion, whiche any person hothe, or myghte have in the bread and wyne, it shall suffyse that the bread bee such, as is usuall to bee eaten at the Table wyth other meates, but the best and purest wheate bread, that conveniently maye be gotten. And yf any of the bread or wine remayne, the Curate shal have it to hys owne use.
quote:I don't believe so, but then CW has very little in the way of rubric generally. It does say that bread and wine not required for communion should be consumed at the end of the distribution or the end of the service. Keeping some does not seem to be an option.
Originally posted by Peronel:
Is there anything in Common Worship which requires witnessed consumption? I tend not to furtle around the rubrics very often!
quote:Bullshit. Was not Was not not eva.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
<snip> We were all teenagers once <snip>
I deny it. And besides your honour I was drunk at the time.
quote:Yeah but since when has any FiF church ever used CW for anything except the odd Wedding?
Originally posted by Peronel:
Is there anything in Common Worship which requires witnessed consumption? I tend not to furtle around the rubrics very often!
quote:Ah but I think you'll find that Jesus said that. He might have changed his mind now that he's trapped inside bits of bread that wicked women try to take out of church in their handbags. He needs the protection of zealous 16 and three quarter year olds, I can tell you.
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:You have driven me to prooftexting and I hate you for it.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Rules are rules and they are not to be broken.
quote:
In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions. Then he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
quote:I'm 17 actually thank you very much! It state in my Profile (I think!!!!) that I was born on the 17th of the 12th in the year of Our Lord 19 hundred and 87!
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:Ah but I think you'll find that Jesus said that. He might have changed his mind now that he's trapped inside bits of bread that wicked women try to take out of church in their handbags. He needs the protection of zealous 16 and three quarter year olds, I can tell you.
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:You have driven me to prooftexting and I hate you for it.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Rules are rules and they are not to be broken.
quote:
In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions. Then he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
quote:Hell, yeah. I've forgotten more than he'll ever learn.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Shit, I've been sober longer than than you have been alive, it's all your fault anyway.
quote:I'm telling you, it's big beeping wafer detector portals that you pass through on the way back to your pew -- an idea whose time has come! (or maybe just the little wands that you pass up and down people as they leave, for smaller altar areas...)
Originally posted by Gort:
I can see it now: A row of glowering 6'4" enforcers at the alter, dark hooded robes with arms crossed over hidden tasers; beady threatening eyes staring from beneath sullen brows searching the faces of the approaching laity.
quote:Hell, I've got underwear older than young Henry.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Shit, I've been sober longer than than you have been alive, it's all your fault anyway.
quote:Ah but even I have underwear which is older than I am!
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:Hell, I've got underwear older than young Henry.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Shit, I've been sober longer than than you have been alive, it's all your fault anyway.
But I won't blame him for that!
quote:Nightlamp, you have no idea. Thank God for all concerned that the Ship wasn't sailing back in the day (nor, indeed, was the Internet as we know it invented, so I was forced to confine my know-it-all holier-than-thou goody-two-shoesness to people I actually met in real life).
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I didn't realise it was possible for people to be as immature as 103 at his age. You must have been a real pain.
quote:I'll try to let you down easy, then. You haven't annoyed me in the least. I was merely calculating, based on your immaturity, what your pain-in-the-ass quotient must be. This is merely potential annoyingness; your actual annoyingness may vary.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:Fortunately I am aware of this and you have made my day knowing I have annoyed you.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
you must still be a real pain.
quote:thanks you kindly, Trudy Trudy.
Leetle Masha
quote:Now THAT definitely falls into the category of "Too Much Information".
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Ah but even I have underwear which is older than I am!
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:Hell, I've got underwear older than young Henry.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Shit, I've been sober longer than than you have been alive, it's all your fault anyway.
But I won't blame him for that!
-103
quote:There's a lot that gets handed down in that family.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Not for me, I wanna know how the heck he managed that.
quote:I don't always agree with you, but:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Honest to God what is with all this “making people feel welcome” bollocks. They are there to offer up a sacrifice of Praise and Worship not have a nice little chat or have a warm wet moment. Get a grip you whiney fuckers.
P
quote:Get thee behind me, Philipp Melancthon. Go read what your leader, Martin Luther, had to say about consecrated Bread and Wine.
Originally posted by Gort:
I am of the opinion that the moment the eucharist touches the lips of an unbeliever it becomes plain ole bread and wine. Isn't faith in communion the foundation of the act? Since when did symbols take on a life of their own and glow in the dark?
quote:See you in church on Sunday.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:You're right. Guess Voodoo works.
Actually those words were spoken not BY Darth Vader, but TO Darth Vader, by a man who was immediately thereupon strangled by Darth Vader from across the room, using the ancient religion in question. This hardly seems to support your case.
Where do I sign up?
quote:(from The Long Run by Leo Furey, Toronto: Key Porter Books, 2004).
If the host misses the paten and falls to the floor, it's a really big deal. During altar boy classes you're told that you are saving God from dropping into hell. "You all know what a circus safety net is, boys. The paten is God's safety net," Brother McMurtry lectures every new altar boy. When Ryan coughed up the host, Monsignor Flynn stoped the Mass. All the brothers raced to the spot where the host had dropped. Brother McMurtry bolted to the sacristy and brought back oils and holy water and starched altar clothes to clean and cover the consecrated spot. Chairs and altar kneelers were gathered and arranged into a circle of protection around the holy area for two days. It was a really big to-do. They did everything but call in McNamara's Construction to jack up the building.
quote:Just found this on a website that was also following the story! w00t!
Reports reaching Novus Ordo Watch that eBay alleged "Host from John Paul II" was sold to Knight of Columbus and turned over to Diocese
quote:Step forward, ye defenders of the faith! From a declaration of liturgy from the Lutheran Synod:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:Get thee behind me, Philipp Melancthon. Go read what your leader, Martin Luther, had to say about consecrated Bread and Wine.
Originally posted by Gort:
I am of the opinion that the moment the eucharist touches the lips of an unbeliever it becomes plain ole bread and wine. Isn't faith in communion the foundation of the act? Since when did symbols take on a life of their own and glow in the dark?
Receptionism, bah humbug!
quote:It seems Melancthon worked to bring about a consensus among the churches and his last wish was that they be reunited in Christ. From Bede's link:
... Just as we do not know the precise moment the Sacrament becomes present, neither can we "fix a moment" when the Body and Blood are no longer present.
quote:
... A result of this Adiaphora controversy, in which Melancthon declared Catholic practices adiaphorous (indifferent things, neither good nor bad), hence permissible provided that the proper doctrine were maintained and its import made clear to the people. Matthias Flacius Illyricus and other zealots objected that these practices had heretofore been the centres of impiety and superstition, and Melancthon was attacked and reviled by Flacius, Amsdorf, and the other "Gnesiolutherans", as a renegade and a heretic. [my bold]
quote:Seems like a reasonable man to me.
... As years went by he even abandoned Luther's doctrine as to the Last Supper, and looked on Christ's spiritual communication of Himself to the faithful and their internal union with Him as the essential feature of the Sacrament... [my bold]
quote:It is theoretically all the same, but getting Communion from the Pope in St Peter's has somewhat more cachet than getting it from Fr Insignificant in the wilds of Essex. Had the man on eBay sold it as a Communion wafer from Fr Insignificant's Mass in Essex, I doubt if it would have attracted as much attention as it did or that anyone would have paid $2000 dollars for it.
Originally posted by madferret:
But if it is accepted by the RC faithful that all communion involves the real body of Christ, then it shouldn't matter where the wafer came from or who blessed it. Should it? Or is it somehow more holy to receive the sacrament in that way?
quote:I dunno; the Knights of Columbus are a devoted bunch of people, if they had to pay $2000 then they probably would.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:It is theoretically all the same, but getting Communion from the Pope in St Peter's has somewhat more cachet than getting it from Fr Insignificant in the wilds of Essex. Had the man on eBay sold it as a Communion wafer from Fr Insignificant's Mass in Essex, I doubt if it would have attracted as much attention as it did or that anyone would have paid $2000 dollars for it.
Originally posted by madferret:
But if it is accepted by the RC faithful that all communion involves the real body of Christ, then it shouldn't matter where the wafer came from or who blessed it. Should it? Or is it somehow more holy to receive the sacrament in that way?
quote:I can see a lot of money being made by people.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I dunno; the Knights of Columbus are a devoted bunch of people, if they had to pay $2000 then they probably would.
quote:We don't know that he didn't do that anyway. Maybe he was just floating the first one on eBay to see what kind of interest he could get. He knew perfectly well someone would buy it and now the asking price has been established I wouldn't be at all surprised if more started to surface. Not necessarily from him but with all the publicity, copy-cats might think about cashing in.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
People could go down the shops buy some unconsecrated hosts and then pretend that they were consecrated and no one would be able to tell the difference.
quote:Ebay routinely has several pages of relics for sale. *sigh*
Originally posted by Ariel:
Someone was selling a relic on eBay a couple of years ago - a bone of a saint or something? - which also provoked a strong reaction but I don't think there was anything anyone could do to legally stop it.
quote:I sense a new career coming on for me......... I'm 6'4" and I do the glowering well. Of course, since I'm female, Henry's too sexist to consider me ordainable.
Originally posted by Gort:
I can see it now: A row of glowering 6'4" enforcers at the alter, dark hooded robes with arms crossed over hidden tasers; beady threatening eyes staring from beneath sullen brows searching the faces of the approaching laity.
quote:Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.
quote:Or more likely, buried.
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.
Deborah
quote:If the description is true it dates back to 1998, so it's 8 years old.
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.
quote:Eurgh. Buried, then, as Back to Front suggests.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:If the description is true it dates back to 1998, so it's 8 years old.
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.
quote:Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
quote:I sense a new career coming on for me......... I'm 6'4" and I do the glowering well. Of course, since I'm female, Henry's too sexist to consider me ordainable.
Originally posted by Gort:
I can see it now: A row of glowering 6'4" enforcers at the alter, dark hooded robes with arms crossed over hidden tasers; beady threatening eyes staring from beneath sullen brows searching the faces of the approaching laity.
Thank heavens the rest of the Anglican comunion doesn't agree with him. On to enforcement!
quote:There was also once a "very large and vibrant number of people" who thought the earth was flat and that the sun orbited around it. They even burned people at the stake for daring to dispute their "facts."
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
But you're correct!
quote:And there was I feeling all reassured until that last post... {shudder}
Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me
I wonder how he would have got on with the late lamented Ms Dworkin?
quote:Wasn't that program called "MTV Death Match"?
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
You have to hand it to 103 - he keeps coming out of the corner for more punishment.
quote:I never realised that FiF agreed with the Anglican churchs of Kenya, South Africa and Uganda. So FiF are really now going forward and accepting women priests as opposed to going backwards in bigotry.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!
quote:Didn't know that about Kenya, SA and Uganda. Learn something new everyday!
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:I never realised that FiF agreed with the Anglican churchs of Kenya, South Africa and Uganda. So FiF are really now going forward and accepting women priests as opposed to going backwards in bigotry.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!
quote:Translation:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
You'll be relieved to know though that she was at church today and she recieved communion from me with a big smile on her face. -103
quote:No, lets be rude a supporter of backwards in bigotry here.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't agree with the comment about Backwards in Bigotry. Let's go over to dead horses and discuss it there!
quote:...and wrong.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:Seems like a reasonable man to me.
... As years went by he even abandoned Luther's doctrine as to the Last Supper, and looked on Christ's spiritual communication of Himself to the faithful and their internal union with Him as the essential feature of the Sacrament... [my bold]
quote:
For it is not founded upon the holiness of men, but upon the Word of God. And as no saint upon earth, yea, no angel in heaven, can make bread and wine to be the body and blood of Christ, so also can no one change or alter it, even though it be misused. For the Word by which it became a Sacrament and was instituted does not become false because of the person or his unbelief.
—"Of the Sacrament of the Altar", The Large Catechism, Martin Luther
quote:Can you say that in pre-modernism? I don't speak pomo.
Originally posted by Gort:
As for me, faith will remain a force independent of dogmatic religous definition. It will always be an integral part of the continous process of becoming.
quote:You really should educate yourself, Mousethief. Ignorance isn't always bliss. You can start here.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Can you say that in pre-modernism? I don't speak pomo.
quote:
This 'visionary mode' is similar to allegorical exegesis which presupposes that the letter
of the text because of its allusiveness points to another level of reality whereby other dimensions
of meaning may be opened up. Understanding, therefore, demands a perception which pierces
beyond the letter. This is the moment of apocalypse when the veil is removed and repentance and epistemological renewal coincide. For the ancient readers of Ezekiel the prophet's visionary
report offered a gateway for visionary perception. For Paul the words of Scripture offered a
gateway to Christ, a possible, though, not necessary, means of discerning the divine mystery,
which was, in the last resort, 'apart from the Law'.
quote:Precisely why I refuse to learn to speak pomo.
Originally posted by Gort:
You really should educate yourself, Mousethief. Ignorance isn't always bliss.
quote:Demonstrates resilience. You too, 103.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
You'll be relieved to know though that she was at church today and she recieved communion from me with a big smile on her face. -103
quote:How do you have "reason" without "definitions"? Or, do you admit only the definitions you like?
Originally posted by Gort:
As for me, faith will remain a force independent of dogmatic religous definition. It will always be an integral part of the continous process of becoming.
Previously posted by Gort
Seems like a reasonable man to me.
quote:Particularly the swallowed the rote part.
Originally posted by Gort:
That's dogmatic religous definitions, Bede. I have no problem with definition so long as it isn't cloaked in ancient symbols that are swallowed by rote. This is what I understand by the warning not to worship graven images. It's the process behind the allegory and myth that is valuable to me. (emphasis added)
quote:I've never seen any of them vibrating - though some of them are a bit doddery.
Originally posted by young Henry:
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me,
quote:Quite so. If they were to vibrate, the ancient bones would crumble and they'd be reduced to a heap of jelly. Has "Vibrant in Certainty" been registered by any particular group? FiF could certainly copyright it as a name for a subsidiary Youth Wing. "Adamant in Acknowledgement"? "Bloody-Minded in Belief"?
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:I've never seen any of them vibrating - though some of them are a bit doddery.
Originally posted by young Henry:
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me,
quote:Sounds like Kilroy-Silk to me. "Veritas: Vibrant in Certainty."
Originally posted by Archimandrite:
Has "Vibrant in Certainty" been registered by any particular group?
quote:<David_Attenborough> And here...we have a very, very rare beast indeed... a post from 103 with no exclamation marks...</David_Attenborough>
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:I dunno; the Knights of Columbus are a devoted bunch of people, if they had to pay $2000 then they probably would.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:It is theoretically all the same, but getting Communion from the Pope in St Peter's has somewhat more cachet than getting it from Fr Insignificant in the wilds of Essex. Had the man on eBay sold it as a Communion wafer from Fr Insignificant's Mass in Essex, I doubt if it would have attracted as much attention as it did or that anyone would have paid $2000 dollars for it.
Originally posted by madferret:
But if it is accepted by the RC faithful that all communion involves the real body of Christ, then it shouldn't matter where the wafer came from or who blessed it. Should it? Or is it somehow more holy to receive the sacrament in that way?
-103
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:because, even though the eye doctor told me last week that I have 20-20 vision, thanks be to God, I haven't yet managed to wean myself away from my dear old drugstore reading glasses. I was rejoicing that Mousethief didn't speak porno for fully half an hour before I took a much closer look at the word...is it a word?
the word under discussion a few posts up was POMO not PORNO (damn these varifocals!)
quote:Your compassion is overwhelming. No doubt you also pity those idiot Jews who are missing out on the joys of bacon and those Buddhist monks who waste their lives meditating.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I pity the bozo who bought a bit of bread for $2000.
quote:Hint: lurk a bit more....post a bit less.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Didn't know that about Kenya, SA and Uganda. Learn something new everyday!
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:I never realised that FiF agreed with the Anglican churchs of Kenya, South Africa and Uganda. So FiF are really now going forward and accepting women priests as opposed to going backwards in bigotry.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!
-103
quote:You appear to be taking the position of the iconoclasts, my dear Gort. You wouldn't be doing that, would you?
Originally posted by Gort:
The greater part of the disagreements I see on these boards are confusion over differing interpretations of symbols and definitions that represent basic natural processes. Call them devine, mystical, christian, new-age, "PoMo", "PreMo", Zen, Hindu, what-have-you...
They are all human attempts to decribe processes that have a common root in the creative principle. We can't grasp or exchange ideas without using symbols to represent The Real Thing™. My problem arises when the symbols, dogma and ritual that are representative of the Devine become more important than what they stand for.
Are you assuming that I implied you swallow ancient symbols by rote, Bede?
quote:Gort is appearing to be the worst type of iconoclast. He can't even be arsed to smash one, instead promoting feeling good with PoMo fuzzy speak, which means whatever you want it to mean.
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Well, as for me and my household, we wouldn't consider our Gort an "iconoclast" because strictly speaking, to be an iconoclast you have to smash an actual icon, declaring the veneration of icons to be idolatry while you do your smashing.
All I've ever seen Gort do is make the earth stand still. I don't think that quite qualifies, since he desists on command and goes back into his flying saucer.
Leetle M.
quote:Oh, The Bede's American Successor, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If it were my icon being smashed, I'd much rather listen to a little talk that sounded like drivel to me than see a very beloved saint's face ripped from behind its silver reza.
Even bad publicity from someone that is active in smashing the icons is better than being ignored by those promoting fuzzy language.
quote:Remember "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" to understand what I mean.
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
quote:Oh, The Bede's American Successor, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If it were my icon being smashed, I'd much rather listen to a little talk that sounded like drivel to me than see a very beloved saint's face ripped from behind its silver reza.
Even bad publicity from someone that is active in smashing the icons is better than being ignored by those promoting fuzzy language.
Besides, is it really PoMo drivel he's peddling, or is he simply going back to his "method acting"?
Leetle M.
To each his (or her) own
quote:Oh great (sarcastic), I've emailed him with the hope that he will reconsider this and take it to his nearest Roman Catholic Diocese to be dealt with. If he is so concerned about it going to the wrong person then he would do this, hopefully he will *bites lip very very hard*
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I guess it had to happen......
Another wafer 'blessed' by His Holiness John Paul II is on offer on eBay, this time from a seller in the UK (one 'fozziechinook' from Southampton, Hants.).
It is item #6171703649 - the opening bid is Ł100, but the 'Buy It Now' price is Ł5000, no less. The seller says that it belonged to his grandmother, a devout RC, and was received by her at a Papal Mass at the Vatican in 1996. He also states that he requires evidence from the buyer that the latter will not use it for any ulterior purpose.
I have added it to my own eBay watch list (for observation purposes only, you understand!).
Comments.........?
Ian J.
quote:Oh yes? Only owned once before, by an old lady who regularly went to church? Heard that one before. Nice try, doesn't hold water. What would his grandmother think of him selling it?
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It is item #6171703649 - the opening bid is Ł100, but the 'Buy It Now' price is Ł5000, no less. The seller says that it belonged to his grandmother, a devout RC, and was received by her at a Papal Mass at the Vatican in 1996.
quote:Wait a sec. That means that the priests at his grandmother's favourite church will know that she was the kind of old lady who smuggled out the Precious Body of Our Lord in her handbag. And, if you believe the Blessed Sigmund Freud, a handbag is very rarely just a handbag.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Oh yes? Only owned once before, by an old lady who regularly went to church? Heard that one before. Nice try, doesn't hold water. What would his grandmother think of him selling it?
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It is item #6171703649 - the opening bid is Ł100, but the 'Buy It Now' price is Ł5000, no less. The seller says that it belonged to his grandmother, a devout RC, and was received by her at a Papal Mass at the Vatican in 1996.
If he's really worried about it going to a good home, he could always give it to the priests at his grandmother's favourite church.
quote:Probably that piece of soggy mother's pride!
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just to add to the above.....
I've also emailed the seller, and asked him to provide proof that what he is offering is indeed a consecrated wafer. Fair enough, I think - if he wants proof of bona-fides from the buyer, the buyer needs the same from him. I await his reply with interest.
Ian J.
quote:Good thinking, Amos. Someone check the seller's list of previously sold items and see if his grandmother's on it (or her handbag). If so, we can track her down and blackmail her.
Wait a sec. That means that the priests at his grandmother's favourite church will know that she was the kind of old lady who smuggled out the Precious Body of Our Lord in her handbag. And, if you believe the Blessed Sigmund Freud, a handbag is very rarely just a handbag.
quote:The more desirable and verifiable relic of St Uncumber would be a hair from her beard. If what you have is one of those (a hair of St. Uncumber's, I mean, not a beard of your own) please PM me, and we'll talk.
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Good thinking, Amos. Someone check the seller's list of previously sold items and see if his grandmother's on it (or her handbag). If so, we can track her down and blackmail her.
Wait a sec. That means that the priests at his grandmother's favourite church will know that she was the kind of old lady who smuggled out the Precious Body of Our Lord in her handbag. And, if you believe the Blessed Sigmund Freud, a handbag is very rarely just a handbag.
Incidentally I happen to have in my possession a feather from the wing of the Angel Gabriel, and a fragment of the halo of St Uncumber, left to me by an old lady that I once helped to cross a busy road. What more fitting tribute to her memory than to offer them to my shipmates. I am sure if you all pooled your money, you could come up with the Ł2m that I am looking for.
quote:O Hell Host:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
If you toasted a host does Jesus become brown bread?
quote:We are all of one Body?
Originally posted by John Holding:
Why would toasting you or Sarkcow or RooK turn Jesus brown?
John
quote:I did the same with the winner of the other auction and recieved no reply!
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling).
Go on, 103 - I dare you to email him/her/them and ask what they intend to do with It if they win It.......!
Ian J.
quote:Hmmm - I'm not sure if that was the right thing to do either. It's gonna cost the knights of St Columbus a bomb to get that back!
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling).
Go on, 103 - I dare you to email him/her/them and ask what they intend to do with It if they win It.......!
Ian J.
quote:BCP User to the rescure.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
IRC it's even in the old Prayer Book (Can a BCP User check that for me)
quote:which reminds us that if the people are meekly kneeling, it would presumably be somewhat more difficult for them to wander off with Jesus.
after that to the people also in order, into their hands, all meekly kneeling.
quote:I regularly recieve in one kind only. Sometimes it's the best way if you have a cold, I too don't dip.. but only because last time I tried I dropped the host
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I suppose had he not stopped me, I would have had to content myself with communing in one kind only.
quote:haeriie fairies - could I have a phonetic break down of that one?
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling). <snip>
quote:I'd like to sell a sacred relic, but I have to get it roadworthy first.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
What I want to know is theologically does anything happen to you for selling relics?
quote:At a guess: 'april the sevtieth in the third age of mankind'
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:haeriie fairies - could I have a phonetic break down of that one?
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling). <snip>
quote:What proof would you accept then?
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed yes, luvanddaisies - hence my email to the latest seller asking him for proof of consecration! [snippity-snip]
quote:Sure, The Bede's American Successor, but the difference is, I don't think all of the iconoclasts, as you style them, mean deliberate harm. You're right about Spong, but I haven't seen anybody that bad off on the Ship so far.
Give me a real iconoclast any day over some PoMo iconoclast.
quote:Dorothy, do you know where the Robot's oil can is?
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Give the Robot a break, for now, anyway.
quote:You mean she left Jesus to him in her will? I've heard of some odd legacies, but really...
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've just noticed that The Wafer belonged to the seller's late mother (so no proof of provenance there). I mentioned above that it was his grandmother's, so I'm not sure if I made a mistake or whether he has since altered the description....
quote:The item includes various links along the lines of "How I made 50,000 pounds in a week". They look distinctly dodgy and one of them seems to involve a spam scheme.
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
An odd twist - the first wafer mentioned on this thread (which sold for $2000) appears to be for sale again, this time by someone in Sheffield, Yorkshire, UK! The 'Buy It Now' price is Ł1.99........
For reference, the item is #6172114575.
Ian J.
quote:I respond with:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:...and wrong.
Originally posted by Gort: [in response to Bede's command that Philipp Melancthon "get thee behind me"...implying that I am a "receptionist"]
quote:Seems like a reasonable man to me.
... As years went by he even abandoned Luther's doctrine as to the Last Supper, and looked on Christ's spiritual communication of Himself to the faithful and their internal union with Him as the essential feature of the Sacrament... [my italics]
Since when is faith reasonable. It is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
quote:Bede responds:
As for me, faith will remain a force independent of dogmatic religous definition.
quote:I respond with:
How do you have "reason" without "definitions"? Or, do you admit only the definitions you like?
quote:Bede responds:
That's dogmatic religous definitions, Bede. I have no problem with definition so long as it isn't cloaked in ancient symbols that are swallowed by rote.
quote:I respond [among other things]:
Aren't you making an assumption or three here? Particularly the swallowed the rote part.
quote:It's late, I go to bed and return the next day to find Mr. Bede has ignored my clarifications and questions and has decided to label me as the following:
Are you assuming that I implied you swallow ancient symbols by rote, Bede?
quote:True - but here's a mystery. The original item was apparently purchased and reverently disposed of. Yet here is the self-same article still being offered for sale. It suggests fraud.
Originally posted by tomb:
The evil of this world cannot desecrate this Host. In the face of the Sacrifice that redeemed us, it stands, like any other Host, as a testament to the redemption of Jesus Christ. People who encounter it can either say "amen" or not. The God who redeemed the world will not be bolluxed by a souvenir-seller on E-bay.
quote:Finally, a voice of reason.
Tomb:
[...] Things on this earth take on supernatural agency because we allow them to and agree to the grace. Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus beause we say "Amen." The transubstantiation of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent...
quote:One, I was pushing a bit for the fun of it.
Originally posted by Gort:
So, Bede's American Successor: In an unhellish sense of Christian brotherhood, I ask you, exactly which of my statements in the last two pages conflict with your tradition as an Anglican and a faithful servant of the Lord Jesus Christ?
quote:The BCP (presumably in use at 103's church, though not JPII's) holds that:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I agree that the Eucharist itself cannot be desecrated by definition, for it would make God subject to the evil of his created world
quote:"in no wise" is both comprehensive and emphatic - Satanists who seek either to use or to desecrate the Sacrament do not receive Jesus in any way whatsoever. They do not take him into their hearts, nor their souls, nor their mouths, nor their fannies.
Article XXIX: Of the Wicked which do not eat the Body of Christ in the use of the Lord's Supper
The Wicked, and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ...
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
quote:Sure, The Bede's American Successor, but the difference is, I don't think all of the iconoclasts, as you style them, mean deliberate harm. You're right about Spong, but I haven't seen anybody that bad off on the Ship so far.
Give me a real iconoclast any day over some PoMo iconoclast.
quote:Indeed. I think Bede's PoMo Detection Meter has gone a bit haywire.
Give the Robot a break, for now, anyway.
quote:I think he found it himself, The Bede's American Successor, right where he left it on the Yellow Brick Road.
do you know where the Robot's oil can is?
quote:...that is problematic.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:Finally, a voice of reason.
Tomb:
[...] Things on this earth take on supernatural agency because we allow them to and agree to the grace. Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus beause we say "Amen." The transubstantiation of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent...
quote:Another good reason why the ECUSA has never adopted them.
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:"in no wise" is both comprehensive and emphatic - Satanists who seek either to use or to desecrate the Sacrament do not receive Jesus in any way whatsoever. They do not take him into their hearts, nor their souls, nor their mouths, nor their fannies.
Article XXIX: Of the Wicked which do not eat the Body of Christ in the use of the Lord's Supper
The Wicked, and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ...
quote:I am intentionally going back a few pages to respond to this now.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:You really haven't got the hang of Hell; encouragement belongs in All Saints. 103 foolishly put something on a discussion board and then got annoyed when it was discussed.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
quote:It is called "synthesis" and "evaluation" on Bloom's Taxonomy. You might try learning enough about a subject to try it sometime.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Although I think this is a first in just how Spong is being used as a weapon here ...
quote:I think some people need to learn to recognize other forms of hellishness. Gort's Groupies must think he can't find his own oil can these days.
Indeed. I think Bede's PoMo Detection Meter has gone a bit haywire.
quote:Nope, There are about 3 copies somewhere but most people adopt the BCP=BOE approach to it!
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:The BCP (presumably in use at 103's church, though not JPII's)
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I agree that the Eucharist itself cannot be desecrated by definition, for it would make God subject to the evil of his created world
quote:Fear not: It's the Pope JPII-shaped chicken breast!
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just to update 103's post, the wafer which reached Ł10 million and the one I mentioned yesterday with a 'Buy It Now' price of Ł1.99 have been withdrawn by eBay and the transactions cancelled.
Common sense, at least, has prevailed.
Deo gratias!
Ian J.
quote:Jealousy rears its ugly green head.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
[...] I think some people need to learn to recognize other forms of hellishness. Gort's Groupies must think he can't find his own oil can these days.
quote:<Slight Tangent>
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
A great fourteen pages, but life moves forward.
I happen to possess a wafer consecrated by HH Pope John Paul III when he was still Cardinal Ratface. It was smuggled out of the Lateran [see how Traditional I can be... Whahahahaha!] by my Great Grandmother who, having ducked to escape the all-embracing clutch and hiss of -100 (-103's Great Grandfather), delivered body blows to the 6' 4" [shorter than I! Ha!] Guardians of the Sanctuary and threw herself through a stained glass window of St Margaret of Antioch [or some other minor canonisation] before escaping to full communion with the CofE and all stations west.
If the shipmates who consider themselves more catholic* than I do not forward to me
Ł1 000 000 000 000
(that's billion for our colonial brethren who have never managed the counting thing)
then I will personally arrange for Lucifer [i.e. the "Rev'd" Tony Bliar] to be loosed from his chains. MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Corpus cani
c/o The Mothers' Union, Trumpton, Trumptonshire, UK
[*should read catholic / orthodox / methodist / anybody else that has money... oh, sorry - of course methodists don't have money any more. Reckitts was such a bummer...]
[Correct my own name... bugger... who the f**k is Corpus Cain? Tony Bliar is, however, not an error!]
quote:What qualities of words does it lack?
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
"Dissin'" is a shortened form of "disrespecting", which is not a word.
quote:Which is what we do whenever we commercialize the sacred - be it with turnstyles and tacky plastic Jesuses in our cathedrals, Holman Hunt pictures in a 10 cent frame (not that they deserve more than a ten cent frame) sacred toenails of St Swithin, whoopee Spirit who flops you over in a rar-rah riot of quasi sexual frenzy and then flogs you a Tim LaHaye book to save your soul ...
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
<snip>
I agree that the Eucharist itself cannot be desecrated by definition, for it would make God subject to the evil of his created world - but what it represents can be cheapened, made into just another souvenir - made crass, as I said before. I think the correct word is "scandal" rather than desecration. Consumer fraud adds a further tawdry air to the affair.
quote:Actually, "dis" is in some dictionaries, particularly The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
"Dissin'" is a shortened form of "disrespecting", which is not a word.
quote:Actually, dis is a verb, according to the dictionary.
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Yes, The Bede's American Successor, "dis" is a dialect word in some dictionaries. If you wish to use it, I don't mind.
I just have an aversion to the practice of making verbs out of nouns, but that's another thread.
Leetle M.
quote:Firstly - get the link right! http://http:// indeed!
Originally posted by Scot:
Hey 103, I have a question for you. It relates to this post in Purg, but I figured your answer might be Hellish.
My question is this: Do you already consider the sacrament at your church to be invalid, or are you going to wait until you jump ship to adopt that opinion?
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
So that would rule out pretty much every Anglican church but your own?quote:Well, 103. Oh pardon, despite what you've written that's not your name, apparently. Many apologies. (Anything else you write we're supposed to not take seriously? Just so we can get it right, you understand.)
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Secondly - Why do you think I'm jumping ship? I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
-103
quote:Well once you jump ship that will be what you sign up to since that is RC's official position. Your priest at the moment will be longer a priest in your eyes. Your new opinion would be that any bread blessed by an Anglican Priest is just a bit of bread.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Secondly - Why do you think I'm jumping ship? I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament,
quote:Would damaged sacraments be sold at a discount on eBay?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
quote:So it's down to the personal beliefs of the individual minister? I doubt whether your future RCC instructors will agree. I wonder how you will feel in a year's time, when you realize that the cracker you attacked some woman over wasn't Jesus after all.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I feel that a lot of communions around the Anglican Communion are damaged, because some ministers DO NOT believe in Real Presence, Transubstatiation or what not, they believe it is just bread and wine.
quote:The longest Hell thread in Limbo is 16 pages (calling Erin to Hell).
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[idle wondering] how long is hell's longest ever thread ?[/idle wondering]
quote:No matter what the answer to the first question is, the answer to the second is a definite Yes.
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'd be glad to hear some clarification from some of our Catholic shipmates who can confirm, or not, that Anglican orders are not valid, from the perspective of the RCC. If Anglican orders are not valid, does it or does it not follow that Anglican sacraments are not valid?
Or is he just wanting his wafer and eating it?
quote:Even this "improperly catechized convert" (waves hi at Jennifer) knows that the Thirty-Nine Articles certainly don't. I'm sure there is some more modern expression of it in the C of E.
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:So it's down to the personal beliefs of the individual minister? I doubt whether your future RCC instructors will agree.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I feel that a lot of communions around the Anglican Communion are damaged, because some ministers DO NOT believe in Real Presence, Transubstatiation or what not, they believe it is just bread and wine.
quote:Then put your money where your hypocritical mouth is and fucking GO ALREADY. Jesus, the day you ever decide to walk all your fucking talk will be cause for celebration for Anglicans worldwide. Just get the fuck out already, you whining little shitstain. GO.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
If I didn't have a problem with the Anglican Communion I wouldn't feel the need to leave, I'd be perfectly happy in my little AC Center which pretends it has nothing to do with the rest of the Church and does it's own little thing. But there is a problem and I feel that I should get out.
-103
quote:Do they have scratch-and-dent sales for sacraments? Factory irregulars?
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:Would damaged sacraments be sold at a discount on eBay?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
quote:So masses offered using the BCP or CW - both approved liturgies - are "damaged" but those using whatever freaky unapproved liturgy your church prefers are not. Hmmmm.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
quote:This, of course, is the heart of it. If -103's church were to cross the Tiber, it wouldn't be able to ignore the rest of the church and do its own little thing. Far from it. It'd have to respect the teachings of its heirarchy - even if it didn't agree with them, and use the approved liturgy - whether it liked it or not.
my little AC Center which pretends it has nothing to do with the rest of the Church and does it's own little thing.
quote:TRANSLATION: Finally, someone who agrees with ME!
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:Finally, a voice of reason.
Tomb:
[...] Things on this earth take on supernatural agency because we allow them to and agree to the grace. Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus beause we say "Amen." The transubstantiation of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent...
quote:I would if I could, but things are more complicated then that! At current I have no choice but to stick around at my church and I'll make the most of it, Until Benedict XVI, I would've hoped that the new pope would allow full communion between anglicans and RCs but that will not happen.
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:Then put your money where your hypocritical mouth is and fucking GO ALREADY. Jesus, the day you ever decide to walk all your fucking talk will be cause for celebration for Anglicans worldwide. Just get the fuck out already, you whining little shitstain. GO.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
If I didn't have a problem with the Anglican Communion I wouldn't feel the need to leave, I'd be perfectly happy in my little AC Center which pretends it has nothing to do with the rest of the Church and does it's own little thing. But there is a problem and I feel that I should get out.
-103
All you other Roman wannabes can get the fuck out, too.
quote:... thus leaving the CofE to the MotR, prayer-book sorts who actually founded the sodding thing. That might actually be quite sensible. Although infinitely less fun, of course.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Although, Us ACs could say the same about the evangelicals, why don't they get out of the CofE and join the baptists or the methodists?
-103
quote:Bullshit. Unless your parents are forcibly dragging you into the church every week and sitting behind you on the altar with a gun pointed at your head, you damn well DO have a choice to go away. You may not be able to receive -- instead, you'll just have to sit in the pew and have it driven home just how catholic you are not, and how you are not even remotely part of Holy Mother Church, you're the ecclesial equivalent of a free church congregationalist to them, regardless of your protestations to the contrary -- but you fucking well can start going to your local RC parish. So you're a goddamned liar on top of it.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I would if I could, but things are more complicated then that! At current I have no choice but to stick around at my church
quote:If I were routinely subjected to the evangelicals sucking Baptist dick the way you flounce around here sucking Roman dick I'd say the same things about them. At least they're not taking every chance available (and many that are not) to tell the Anglican Communion how much they suck and how they can't wait to get out of it, like you do, except you WILL NOT LEAVE. I am sick to death of hearing it. So either suck it up and live with where you are, which means that you shut the fuck up about how goddamned wonderful Rome is, or be a man, grow a set, and get the fuck out.
I'll get the fuck out when I can and then you can celebrate. Although, Us ACs could say the same about the evangelicals, why don't they get out of the CofE and join the baptists or the methodists?
quote:And there I was thinking it ws because of the grace of God.
The transubstantiion of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent.
quote:Uh... I'm sure that's not what you really meant to say. Though if you meant that "like some other sorts of evil, this bad thing can't happen unless..." it would make sense.
Like most evil, bad things can't happen unless we say "yes" to them.
quote:That's certainly true though.
The evil of this world cannot desecrate this Host. In the face of the Sacrifice that redeemed us, it stands, like any other Host, as a testament to the redemption of Jesus Christ. People who encounter it can either say "amen" or not. The God who redeemed the world will not be bolluxed by a souvenir-seller on E-bay.
quote:Well we do, sometimes. And then we go to CofE churches again sometimes. Because we don't tend to think of ourselves as members of a denomination so much as members of a church - the actual local church. And if we move to a new town & find that the church that's most appropriate for us is a different denomination than the one we just left, its not such a big deal.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Although, Us ACs could say the same about the evangelicals, why don't they get out of the CofE and join the baptists or the methodists?
quote:But there's only three & a half of them left in England. And two of them are Methodists on alternate Sundays.
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
thus leaving the CofE to the MotR, prayer-book sorts who actually founded the sodding thing.
quote:You said that a few pages back. Do you mean it this time?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
No more to debate that's the end!
quote:I didn't start this debate - I was answering a question and you got an answer. There is no debate.
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:You said that a few pages back. Do you mean it this time?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
No more to debate that's the end!
quote:And the content of your recent posts (I particularly liked 'shitstain' - although 103 would, I think, be more familiar with the English 'skidmark') obviously demonstrates your great age, wisdom and sagacity.
Originally posted by Erin:
I had held out some hope that even if you're a snot-nosed brat, you at least had the courage of your convictions. You don't even have that, so now you're just an annoying school boy who likes to pretend he's a grown-up but in reality is just a child.
quote:That really is quite a pathetic personal attack. Next time do try to insult me.
Originally posted by Erin:
I didn't ask a question; I simply said it was time for you to shit or get off the goddamned pot. I also said that you're a coward, a liar and a hypocrite, but I did forget to say that you are a misogynistic pig, too.
I had held out some hope that even if you're a snot-nosed brat, you at least had the courage of your convictions. You don't even have that, so now you're just an annoying school boy who likes to pretend he's a grown-up but in reality is just a child.
quote:Last time you lasted almost a day before returning to the thread you'd left. This time, barely half an hour.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
That really is quite a pathetic personal attack. Next time do try to insult me.
-103
quote:I never said I would leave the thread, I just said that my beliefs were not debatable.
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:Last time you lasted almost a day before returning to the thread you'd left. This time, barely half an hour.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
That really is quite a pathetic personal attack. Next time do try to insult me.
-103
quote:I think that's everyone's goal, but maybe not everyone has the same vision of that goal. The 'Gator has a very attention-getting way of seeking that goal and inducing others to think in ways that may not have occurred to them.
To live forever and to rule all. That is winning.
quote:I can't say what 103 will believe, but why should he agree with that? He is perfectly capable of forming a sensible and consistent view of holy orders and the eucharist which differs from the official doctrine (insofar as there is one) of the Anglican church and would be as capable as any other Catholic is of independent thought after becoming RC.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:Well once you jump ship that will be what you sign up to since that is RC's official position. Your priest at the moment will be longer a priest in your eyes. Your new opinion would be that any bread blessed by an Anglican Priest is just a bit of bread.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Secondly - Why do you think I'm jumping ship? I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament,
quote:Or possibly he is taking seriously the commandment to 'Honour thy father and thy mother' and doing his best to reconcile that with his best judgement on which part of the Church God is calling him to?
Originally posted by Erin:
Bullshit. Unless your parents are forcibly dragging you into the church every week and sitting behind you on the altar with a gun pointed at your head, you damn well DO have a choice to go away. You may not be able to receive -- instead, you'll just have to sit in the pew and have it driven home just how catholic you are not, and how you are not even remotely part of Holy Mother Church, you're the ecclesial equivalent of a free church congregationalist to them, regardless of your protestations to the contrary -- but you fucking well can start going to your local RC parish.
quote:103 is transparently sincere. Wrong, maybe, but if you are in a position to say that his opinions are not honestly held, I can suggest all sorts of ways in which you could put your undoubted gift of telepathy to better use.
So you're a goddamned liar on top of it.
quote:I don't.
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Hmmm.....why is it people who defend others from the gator always agree with the person being defended?
quote:Then, bluntly, you shouldn't be posting them on a discussion board. You should get a blog.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I never said I would leave the thread, I just said that my beliefs were not debatable.
-103
quote:You know, I have as little sympathy for 103 as anyone else here, but the idea that only being held at gunpoint eliminates people's options is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Erin:
No, he's a liar, because unless he's being held at gunpoint, he really does have options. He said he does not.
quote:Have you met my mom before? No! So you cannot possibly say!
Originally posted by Erin:
No, he's a liar, because unless he's being held at gunpoint, he really does have options. He said he does not.
quote:What else prevents him from either attending an RC parish or, at the very least, not attending the CoE one? What could possibly remove both of those options?
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:You know, I have as little sympathy for 103 as anyone else here, but the idea that only being held at gunpoint eliminates people's options is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Erin:
No, he's a liar, because unless he's being held at gunpoint, he really does have options. He said he does not.
quote:Indeed they can. Especially parents like mine.
Originally posted by Pânts:
Parents can be very powerful people.
quote:My kid and us, the parental units, disagree on this one. We both feel particularly helpless as the storm of puberty slowly creeps into our lives and are all hoping somebody among the three of us will be powerful.
Originally posted by Pânts:
Parents can be very powerful people.
quote:Yes, he does. Just like the person with a gun to their head DOES have the option to accept death rather than do what the holder of the gun says.
Originally posted by Erin:
103 DOES have other options. He's chosen not to exercise them.
quote:I can't tell if this means that the BCP "Mass" is invalid or damaged.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
? . Which makes me wonder why he's complaining about having no choice about going there ? So is it about his mother forcing him to go, and not his own free choice? Does he want to be there or doesn't he?
quote:I believe the phrase is "wholly null and utterly void." Therefore, since you need to be a validly-consecrated priest in order to conduct the Sacraments, the sacraments are likewise void etc. However (and there's always a however), I don't think the encyclical that declared Anglican orders to be void etc is an infallible teaching of the Magisterium, so there's nothing stopping Benedict XVI turning round and saying "ooops, our bad."
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'd be glad to hear some clarification from some of our Catholic shipmates who can confirm, or not, that Anglican orders are not valid, from the perspective of the RCC.
quote:I don't know a thing about the newer versions of BCP - I'm talking about BCP 1662 which is something that Anglican Rite Romans DO NOT use.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:I can't tell if this means that the BCP "Mass" is invalid or damaged.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
In either case call the Pope! Here are a bunch of Roman Catholics with Damaged or Invalid sacraments: Anglican Use Romans.
And there are lots of them. I wonder if they, or their bishops, or the Pope knows that their sacraments are damaged?
quote:Then 103 has way more problems than the vagina behind the altar down the road.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Let's not assume anything about family politics in the 103 household. Maybe the choice really is between the Anglican Church or a life on the streets...
quote:Ahh. So which part of the BCP 1662 is it that you find so objectionable (but not, apparently, all the other versions of the BCP).
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't know a thing about the newer versions of BCP - I'm talking about BCP 1662 which is something that Anglican Rite Romans DO NOT use.
And the Anglican Rite is not word for word BCP, it is basically Roman Rite which has the same feeling as the newer versions of BCP.
-103
quote:The dynamic is fascinating. -103 is forced to go to church by his mother. Once there, he's the life and soul of the party: altar-boy, thurifer, gaffer, grip, Mr. Maracas in the Praise Band, Father's right-hand man on the Walsingham Pilgrimage. And then up comes a lady to receive communion....'EAT IT! EAT IT NOW' says Henry, all his frustrations bubbling over in a great geyser of filial misery.
Originally posted by Anselmina:
So is 103 really saying that he is being forced to go to a church he doesn't want to be at, by his mother
Real sympathies to those whose parents forced the issue. For my generation, generally, even in 'religious' Northern Ireland, and since then the 'norm' has been that parents usually stop pressurising their kids to attend round about 12 or so. It usually coincides with confirmation. The general absence of 13 plus teens in churches testifies to that. But I do know some older teens who are told to attend church, and give in rather than have a row about it.
Sincere sympathy, really, for a young man of seventeen (old enough to have sex, earn a wage, get married, leave home, get a licence, smoke) who is being forced to go somewhere he doesn't want to go to every Sunday morning by his mum. Seriously one shouldn't underestimate the power of some parents to exert themselves over their virtually grown-up children.
What I don't understand though is that I did get the impression 103 rather liked the church he went to
quote:The 39 articles of religion really make my shudder.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:Ahh. So which part of the BCP 1662 is it that you find so objectionable (but not, apparently, all the other versions of the BCP).
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't know a thing about the newer versions of BCP - I'm talking about BCP 1662 which is something that Anglican Rite Romans DO NOT use.
And the Anglican Rite is not word for word BCP, it is basically Roman Rite which has the same feeling as the newer versions of BCP.
-103
quote:Haven't we done this 39 articles game before? Maybe it's a Dead Horse candidate.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
...The 39 articles of religion really make my shudder.
...
-103
quote:Who wants an irregular Jesus?
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Do they have scratch-and-dent sales for sacraments? Factory irregulars?
quote:We have but HT has forgotten.
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:Haven't we done this 39 articles game before? Maybe it's a Dead Horse candidate.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
...The 39 articles of religion really make my shudder.
...
-103
quote:That's either Papist or Popish, -103. It's so important to get one's derogatory terms correct.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
The lack of papish stuff (elevations, latin etc.)
quote:Aha! Maybe it was his mother?
Originally posted by Amos:
The dynamic is fascinating. -103 is forced to go to church by his mother. Once there, he's the life and soul of the party: altar-boy, thurifer, gaffer, grip, Mr. Maracas in the Praise Band, Father's right-hand man on the Walsingham Pilgrimage. And then up comes a lady to receive communion....'EAT IT! EAT IT NOW' says Henry, all his frustrations bubbling over in a great geyser of filial misery.
quote:Pretty much what I was thinking in the middle of my lunch hour, which is when you posted this, Marvin. I'm not sure I want to make a habit of having the same thought simultaneously with you.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Yes, he does. Just like the person with a gun to their head DOES have the option to accept death rather than do what the holder of the gun says.
Originally posted by Erin:
103 DOES have other options. He's chosen not to exercise them.
quote:It honestly never occurred to me to push my parents this far when I was a teenager. But by all means, let's agree to disagree so we can all get back to telling 103 what an idiot he is.
Originally posted by Erin:
We're going to have to disagree on this, then, because short of a parent physically forcing a child to do something (that is, grabbing them and making the motions for them), 103 DOES have other options. He's chosen not to exercise them.
quote:Perhaps when 103 grows up he will be less
Originally posted by Anselmina:
What I don't understand though is that I did get the impression 103 rather liked the church he went to
and more consistent in his theology. Or maybe he'll focus all that energy on women he'd like to shag instead of tat.
quote:Book of Evil, I believe. Our Henry does not like it.
Originally posted by Peronel:
BOE?
quote:It's easier to find than it was. And I think we will see more of it in the days to come. The Pope is said to consider it A Good Thing.
Originally posted by rosamundi:
And I'm afraid if you go looking for Latin in among the Catholics, you're going to be sadly disappointed these days.
quote:Come to the Dark Side, Ruth - there's always room for one more
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:Pretty much what I was thinking in the middle of my lunch hour, which is when you posted this, Marvin. I'm not sure I want to make a habit of having the same thought simultaneously with you.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Yes, he does. Just like the person with a gun to their head DOES have the option to accept death rather than do what the holder of the gun says.
Originally posted by Erin:
103 DOES have other options. He's chosen not to exercise them.
quote:I can just see the "Screwtape Letters" sequel now
Like most evil, bad things can't happen unless we say "yes" to them.
quote:
...First time I ever was a Eucharistic minister...
quote:
...come to my church again because of that but to Catholics it is INCREDIBLY important...
quote:
...I'm glad that you would like to see me out because I'm glad that I'll be able to leave the confusion and the uncertainty of the CofE that I experience behind and I'll be able to live my life in a denomination that I think is strong and united in beliefs...
quote:possibly I'm just a bit odd, but does anyone else percieve any trace of inconsistency [maybe even hypocrisy?
...and I panicked on my first time as Eucharistic Minister. I told my parish priest and he said that he saw and it was exactly what I should've done. I had remembered what he told me to do...
] in the above.
quote:(with apologies to W. S. Gilbert)
DEACON: This lady's his what?
103: This lady's my mother!
Priest: This lady's his what?
Acolytes: He says she's his mother!
quote:It was the "EAT IT NOW!!" bit that made me suddenly wonder whether this was a phrase he was used to hearing at home. And he just sort of came out with it as a reflex action.
Originally posted by Amos:
Well, as Ariel suggested, maybe the lady was his mother.
quote:(Emphasis added)
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
....I'm glad that I'll be able to leave the confusion and the uncertainty of the CofE that I experience behind and I'll be able to live my life in a denomination that I think is strong and united in beliefs.
quote:Sorry to break it to you, but not being a Christian (or even a Christain -- nice typo!) is hardly the end of the world.
BTW - At least I'll still be a Christian and I still believe in Christainity unlike the majority of people in my school and previous schools and I think in the country.
I'll never become an athiest or would you all want me to do that?
]quote:OMG - My parents would never hit me, prehaps I gave out the wrong message here! They aren't at all like that and I don't think they would chuck me out on the streets.
Originally posted by kentishmaid:
While I have found much of what 103 has said in this thread a little difficult to swallow (if you'll pardon the pun) I do have great sympathy with him on the whole church attendance/parental control thing. Even my mother was not permitted to go to a different church from my father as he thought that, as he was the vicar, this would send the wrong message to the congregation.
On occasions I would hide in order to avoid church attendance, and my father would find me, and forcibly put me in the car. Had I not attended church I would have been required to miss meals, not be allowed to go out etc, and given my father's violent tendencies, in probability suffered physical bruising in order that my father get his way. In our household, you either obeyed my Dad or else. While I am not for one minute suggesting that 103 has to put up with this sort of abusive environment, he may well have incredibly strict parents who have ways of enforcing their will. Frankly, if it was a choice between starving, living on the streets, or being hit versus doing what my Dad required then I opted to obey him. If 103 has similar choices (albeit on a different scale and with less criminal overtones), then, I figure we should give him a bit of breathing space on that score until he is living independently of his parents.
quote:Ah, but two of the Eucharist prayers in order one contain the same theology.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
BTW - I have no problem with CW Order One because it doesn't follow the BCP 1662 order of Holy Communion.
quote:Well, not with an attitude like that we won't...
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Because we won't be fully united, Will we?
quote:He believes that the Anglican Church is not a real church. I don't think we ever will be able to be in full communion with Rome, so we won't be fully united will we? Think about it...
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Well, not with an attitude like that we won't...
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Because we won't be fully united, Will we?
quote:- all of which is admirable, and does show that you're not as immature as some of your less considered posts here may have led some to believe - but why though do you accept appointment to a role of leadership &/or ministry within the church if it is not a church you would otherwise choose to attend?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
But life would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable when it comes to religion (which is a huge part of our family, we go to mass all together as a family, we recite the rosary together and we pray together)
<snip>
It's a decision that I have to make whilst thinking about the feelings of other people in the family. The last thing I want to do is cause a lot of hurt and pain in my family, after all I have to live with them!
-103
quote:and
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Think about it...
quote:No, YOU think about it...these are distinctly Catholic characteristics. So, you're Catholic in terms of your beliefs, right? Reciting the rosary and everything, transubstantiation, etc. And you want to actually be a Catholic soon. But you don't have a problem being an EM in a non-church, with utterly null and void sacraments, which are administered by a non-priest?
we go to mass all together as a family, we recite the rosary together and we pray together
quote:I think the cause of full communion is best helped more by us staying where we are and working for change from there (be we RCC, Anglican or whatever). Not by effectively saying the only way to all agree is for us all to convert to one particular denomination...
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
He believes that the Anglican Church is not a real church. I don't think we ever will be able to be in full communion with Rome, so we won't be fully united will we? Think about it...
quote:Right, I can hardly see the screen at the mement because I'm very tired so I am only typing this answer by looking at the keybnoard so please excuse any typos, this will be my last post tonight.
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:- all of which is admirable, and does show that you're not as immature as some of your less considered posts here may have led some to believe - but why though do you accept appointment to a role of leadership &/or ministry within the church if it is not a church you would otherwise choose to attend?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
But life would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable when it comes to religion (which is a huge part of our family, we go to mass all together as a family, we recite the rosary together and we pray together)
<snip>
It's a decision that I have to make whilst thinking about the feelings of other people in the family. The last thing I want to do is cause a lot of hurt and pain in my family, after all I have to live with them!
-103
that is what puzzles me & is where I percieve the biggest contradiction - especially as your beliefs & opinions are so fervently held and expressed.
quote:I'm interested, but you have to supply a full exposé detailing just how said dress became soiled. Signed black and white glossies (by the presidents) should be sufficient for varification. Not that I don't trust you or anything.
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
...And, oh, did I mention I've got a dress with the semen of two former US presidents on it, for sale?
quote:Oh, you want me to sell Grandma's souvenirs as well as Mum's and Great-Grandma's? Sorry, that's a separate item. I'll be listing her Presidential crotchless panties next week.
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Teddy's population paste got all over the place. Hardly a collector's item. Now if you you've got some of Franklin D's joy gloy on a garment, you're going to get some good bids.
quote:Have you ever seen a Book of Common Prayer or been to a BCP Mass?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
The 39 articles of religion really make my shudder.
The lack of papish stuff (elevations, latin etc.)
-103
quote:Ah, 103, hear wisdom! As an atheist and an outsider to Catholicism, I was pretty confused to have a sort of conversion experience physically sitting all by myself in a Catholic church. (I had wandered inside to get out of the heat and it seemed nice and quiet.) I stumbled into RCIA in a similar fashion, having sat in a nice quiet place and in the end managing to attend Mass. I held on to the idea of unity of belief within the Catholic Church for a while longer.
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:(Emphasis added)
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
....I'm glad that I'll be able to leave the confusion and the uncertainty of the CofE that I experience behind and I'll be able to live my life in a denomination that I think is strong and united in beliefs.
Prepare yourself for some disappointment, lad. The RCC has the likes of me and my godmother in it.
Though if you're looking for a lot of mindless adoration of various apparitions of the BVM (including little old ladies spouting pious nonsense), you'll surely be able to find your niche.
quote:Oracular toast? Proven by picking the winner of the last Presidential election? Essence of Pope?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Urm, this is now getting stupid.
quote:Is this what we're supposed to be doing? Are you sure? Cuz I thought it was all about figuring out whose rules to follow and then following them as precisely as possible. And excoriating everyone following different rules, hell-bound cretins that they are.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
In the end the ones that made most sense to me were those of quiet faith and prayerfulness who really loved God and loved their fellow humans too.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:Is this what we're supposed to be doing? Are you sure? Cuz I thought it was all about figuring out whose rules to follow and then following them as precisely as possible. And excoriating everyone following different rules, hell-bound cretins that they are.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
In the end the ones that made most sense to me were those of quiet faith and prayerfulness who really loved God and loved their fellow humans too.
Surely not. Oh wait a moment- you mean the other mob over there...
quote:Ah, but did Jesus get constipation? This could be a whole new Purg thread, along with all those others we have enjoyed such as "Did Jesus's penis curve to the left?" or "Was Jesus ever accidentally discovered with his pants down by Mary Magdalene?" or "Was Jesus a really ace carpenter, or just a mediocre one?" and other such nonsense threads.
Originally posted by Son of a Preacher Man:
Who wants an irregular Jesus?
quote:You have hobbits in the Roman Catholic Church?
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
a genuine recusant ( very old Shire family that had provided one of the 40 Martyrs. Shades of Brideshead Revisited with that one
quote:That would be York...<pats Cusanus kindly on head> nope, that would be right. They went by the name of Baggins.
Originally posted by Cusanus:
quote:You have hobbits in the Roman Catholic Church?
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
a genuine recusant ( very old Shire family that had provided one of the 40 Martyrs. Shades of Brideshead Revisited with that one
quote:So what part of this changes in a year's time?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
If I was part of a different denomination it would probably cause a split among us, there would be a "You're a different type of Christian to us" attitude, I would be joining the "Novus Ordo Warehouse religion, the religion that only uses churches to distribute mass to the people, the religion that stole the latin from the people and the religion that caused so much upset to my mother's family"
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:It is called "synthesis" and "evaluation" on Bloom's Taxonomy. You might try learning enough about a subject to try it sometime.
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Although I think this is a first in just how Spong is being used as a weapon here ...
quote:I think some people need to learn to recognize other forms of hellishness. Gort's Groupies must think he can't find his own oil can these days.
Indeed. I think Bede's PoMo Detection Meter has gone a bit haywire.
quote:Nah, I think that someone else had "The Wizard of Oz" on the brain and elected to do some Margaret Hamilton went to kollidge polysyllabic (etc.) scenery chewing. Don't know nothin' about no postmodernism stuff here in Berserkley, nosirree.
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:Jealousy rears its ugly green head.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
[...] I think some people need to learn to recognize other forms of hellishness. Gort's Groupies must think he can't find his own oil can these days.
quote:I obviously missed the part of the Holy Communion service in which the priest read out the Articles of Religion and I said "Amen".
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
And I know that the 39 articles aren't in the HC service, but they're in the same book which is implying that if you celebrate that service you agree to those rules.
-103
quote:Is Ecumenical Patriarch who is Gandalf! Was it beards on Benedict XVI or anyone else in the recent Conclave? Was Gandalf Latin Schismatic? No! Is outrage!
See, that's not fair. I now have a vision of the Pope as Gandalf, which is probably highly irreverent......
quote:They're in the same book! Brilliant! Now, when I visit an Anglican church, I'll have something to occupy my mind during the sermon....
I know that the 39 articles aren't in the HC service, but they're in the same book which is implying that if you celebrate that service you agree to those rules.
quote:I wouldn't raise my hopes too high, if I were you!
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
103 points out,
quote:They're in the same book! Brilliant! Now, when I visit an Anglican church, I'll have something to occupy my mind during the sermon....
I know that the 39 articles aren't in the HC service, but they're in the same book which is implying that if you celebrate that service you agree to those rules.
(I'll get me Menaion....)
Leetle M.
quote:Despite a couple of subsequent pages to the contrary.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I never said I would leave the thread, I just said that my beliefs were not debatable.
-103
quote:My beliefs are not Marxist.
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:Despite a couple of subsequent pages to the contrary.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I never said I would leave the thread, I just said that my beliefs were not debatable.
-103
From what I can tell, your beliefs are Marxist. Groucho Marx - "I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member."
quote:I assure you that we don't bar members of Forward in Faith from ministering in our churches. Whatever gave you the idea that we did?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[qb]I'm not sure though about some other Anglican Churches (to which I wouldn't be allowed to be a Eucharistic Minister in anyway because I'm a member of Forward in Faith and most Anglican Churches in this area have Women priests
quote:Mom has always said "When you're 18 you can do as you please"
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
103, i think you are missing two points that people are trying to make to you.
firstly, although _you_ may believe that your communion is valid on the basis of not being done by a woman priest, the roman catholic church does not, because your church, no matter how flawlessly woman free, remains not roman catholic. so if you are planning on joining the roman catholic church because you agree with its teachings, either you will have to come to accept that the mass you enjoy so much now is, in fact, nothing at all, or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.
and the other thing is, even though you will be 18 in a year, how will that lessen the family upset if you leave your church and become roman catholic? will people no longer be upset because as an adult you can do as you please?
oh and three, the marxist thing was a joke. groucho marx, not karl. joke, funny, ha ha... got it?
quote:
Can. 1367 A person who throws away the consecrated species or takes or retains them for a sacrilegious purpose incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; moreover, a cleric can be punished with another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state.
quote:No, that he won't, not can't.
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.
quote:Exactly - I'm also should refrain from making a parish which isn't on "The safe list" my usual parish and I also should avoid recieving communion in a church which has a Women Minister on the clergy list.
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.
[cross-posted: responding to ken)
quote:You're right...thought I'd have learned given the last 3 pages.
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:No, that he won't, not can't.
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.
quote:What if they're women members? Oh wait, they bar themselves.....
Originally posted by ken:
quote:I assure you that we don't bar members of Forward in Faith from ministering in our churches. Whatever gave you the idea that we did?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[qb]I'm not sure though about some other Anglican Churches (to which I wouldn't be allowed to be a Eucharistic Minister in anyway because I'm a member of Forward in Faith and most Anglican Churches in this area have Women priests
quote:I assure you 103, that while when you're 18 your mother may permit you to do as you please, it doens't mean you still won't hear the end of it from her. If you're this close and it is a no go, trust me in a years' time, you'll still be getting the riot act even if you're "allowed" to convert.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Mom has always said "When you're 18 you can do as you please"
It also will be at a time when another women in our family will have calmed down over something that I can't really post on the internet. It just is something that has put her totally against RCs.
-103
quote:You said "wouldn't be allowed". As if someone else would stop you.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Exactly - I'm also should refrain from making a parish which isn't on "The safe list" my usual parish and I also should avoid recieving communion in a church which has a Women Minister on the clergy list.
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.
quote:No no no. Being discontented with your own church and not wanting women priests and not liking this that and the other in the C of E are not (in my view, anyway) good reasons for wanting to pack in your membership and join the Catholics. Reading your posts to this thread so far, it sounds as if the only reasons you want to defect to Rome are negative reasons and that if any other denomination offered the female-free clergy option you'd consider them as well, equally if Rome suddenly started appointing women you'd be out of it like a shot.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
It's actually quite difficult in this area to find a church that meets that criteria, which is one of the reasons that the RCC appeals so much, I could just go to mass at any church in any place without a problem, instead if I want to go to weekday mass I have to travel to my own parish church or if I'm not in the area I have to check the FiF Safe List
quote:Actually - I might be in favour of women priests if the Pope said it was ok but he hasn't so that's it!
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:No no no. Being discontented with your own church and not wanting women priests and not liking this that and the other in the C of E are not (in my view, anyway) good reasons for wanting to pack in your membership and join the Catholics. Reading your posts to this thread so far, it sounds as if the only reasons you want to defect to Rome are negative reasons and that if any other denomination offered the female-free clergy option you'd consider them as well, equally if Rome suddenly started appointing women you'd be out of it like a shot.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
It's actually quite difficult in this area to find a church that meets that criteria, which is one of the reasons that the RCC appeals so much, I could just go to mass at any church in any place without a problem, instead if I want to go to weekday mass I have to travel to my own parish church or if I'm not in the area I have to check the FiF Safe List
If you still feel the same way in a year or so you are going to have to convince a priest that your reasons for joining are sound, so better start practising now.
I don't know, the more I read the more inclined I am to agree with your parents.
quote:Oh! My! God! FiF really are the "Girls Have Cooties Club".
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
... I have to check the FiF Safe List...
quote:Now wait a minute. You object to women priests in the C of E on what grounds? Scriptural?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Actually - I might be in favour of women priests if the Pope said it was ok but he hasn't so that's it!
quote:No - it's only partly scriptual and I think a lot of FiF people would be in agreement with me (my parish priest for one actually)
Originally posted by Ariel:
Now wait a minute. You object to women priests in the C of E on what grounds? Scriptural?
Yet if the Pope decided it was all right you'd chuck away your interpretation of Scripture and the passionate anti-female-clergy stance you've embraced for some months now and suddenly start liking the idea, and telling your FiF friends that they'd got it all wrong over the past years?
quote:Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
103 points out,
quote:They're in the same book! Brilliant! Now, when I visit an Anglican church, I'll have something to occupy my mind during the sermon....
I know that the 39 articles aren't in the HC service, but they're in the same book which is implying that if you celebrate that service you agree to those rules.
(I'll get me Menaion....)
Leetle M.
quote:Oh, absolutely. We had an absolutely dire interim priest a few years back--35-minute sermons that said nothing, except for the few times when they said something really, really wrong. I got very well acquainted with the historical documents printed in the back of the American BCP.
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)
quote:
firstly, although _you_ may believe that your communion is valid on the basis of not being done by a woman priest, the roman catholic church does not, because your church, no matter how flawlessly woman free, remains not roman catholic. so if you are planning on joining the roman catholic church because you agree with its teachings, either you will have to come to accept that the mass you enjoy so much now is, in fact, nothing at all, or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.
quote:It won't lessen it, but it'll hopefully be easier to take.
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
103, i think you are missing two points that people are trying to make to you.
firstly, although _you_ may believe that your communion is valid on the basis of not being done by a woman priest, the roman catholic church does not, because your church, no matter how flawlessly woman free, remains not roman catholic. so if you are planning on joining the roman catholic church because you agree with its teachings, either you will have to come to accept that the mass you enjoy so much now is, in fact, nothing at all, or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.
and the other thing is, even though you will be 18 in a year, how will that lessen the family upset if you leave your church and become roman catholic? will people no longer be upset because as an adult you can do as you please?
oh and three, the marxist thing was a joke. groucho marx, not karl. joke, funny, ha ha... got it?
quote:You see, if you were a good old-fashioned Catholic, you could have a really interesting pre-1960s missal with lots of fascinating snippets about (as it might be) the origins of the liturgy, anecdotes about saints, and a diagram of a priest.
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)
quote:No of course not, but when I've asked the RC Priest who I'm in dialogue with if he thought that the masses he celebrated in the Anglican Church were just Bread and Wine, he responded with "No, I believe that I was celebrating a true mass, just as much as I do now"
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
they may genuflect, they may be polite, 103, but the fact is, if they are in agreement with the doctrine of their church, they do not believe they have recived anything other than a wafer and wine. is that what you believe you are serving them?
quote:A diagram of a priest? Were there lift-up tabs?
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:You see, if you were a good old-fashioned Catholic, you could have a really interesting pre-1960s missal with lots of fascinating snippets about (as it might be) the origins of the liturgy, anecdotes about saints, and a diagram of a priest.
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)
quote:And so what? Why does anyone need to be in agreement with the full doctrine of their church?
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.
quote:You know, 103, a big reason why I tend to not take you very seriously is that so many of your arguments aren't spiritual, aren't theological, aren't even personal, they're instead...
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:No - it's only partly scriptual and I think a lot of FiF people would be in agreement with me (my parish priest for one actually)
Originally posted by Ariel:
Now wait a minute. You object to women priests in the C of E on what grounds? Scriptural?
Yet if the Pope decided it was all right you'd chuck away your interpretation of Scripture and the passionate anti-female-clergy stance you've embraced for some months now and suddenly start liking the idea, and telling your FiF friends that they'd got it all wrong over the past years?
The ordination of Women broke a lot of relations between us and Rome and if anybody should have the decision on the ordination of women then it should be the Pope. Every single pope has refused the ordination of women, most possibly because it would break the unbroken chain of apostolic sucessions.
Also because every Pope has taken the view that "If Jesus would've wanted women priests then he would've had female deciples"
Only groups like "REFORM" think that women priests are a bad idea and have a entirely scriptual reason and I'm not at all like REFORM on that belief, it's all for other reasons.
I think this is a dead horses topic though so prehaps you might want to talk about FiF stuff and reasons in Priestly Genitalia.
-103
quote:<tangent in support of 103>
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
I don't get it, if your mother wouldn't be good enough to give you comunion or bless you, why does she get any way in which church you're a member of?
quote:I'm not quite seeing your point. The reason that women aren't ordained in the RCC is not becuase spiritually they're different, etc, but solely based on their gender. Not being able to bear children doesn't make you a man, you could be an infertile woman. That's biology. Biologically, women can give the eucharist, so long as they are able to use their arms, toes, nose, whatever it takes. The sole restriction is that they're women. Not that they can't physically do it, or that spiritually they are less then men, but that they just are women. But men can administer the eucharist. Were a woman to make all the same vows, etc as a man she'd still be prohibited. What other way is there to interpret it than "women aren't good enough?"
Originally posted by shareman:
quote:<tangent in support of 103>
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
I don't get it, if your mother wouldn't be good enough to give you comunion or bless you, why does she get any way in which church you're a member of?
Well, it's not about "good enough" unless you think that my inability to bear a child is not because I'm a man, but because I'm somehow not "good enough". And I support women priests, but if you're going to counter argue, then argue against what the other side is actually saying. They might be a bunch of neanderthals, but their arguments still need to be countered.
<end of tangent>
quote:Forgive someone who is living on the Left Bank of the Great Pond, but "pretending to be something that it's not"? Is there something here that I am losing in translation?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't prefer that church over my own at all, I wish they had colour and a big band and I wish the priest would wear a chasuble BUT I feel a lot more comfortable with the fact that it's in the RC Communion and it's not pretending to be something that it's not.
quote:aw come on, 103, you know better than that. that may be what he wants to believe, but it ain't official church doctrine.
No of course not, but when I've asked the RC Priest who I'm in dialogue with if he thought that the masses he celebrated in the Anglican Church were just Bread and Wine, he responded with "No, I believe that I was celebrating a true mass, just as much as I do now"
quote:'twasn't me that said that - just for the record.
Originally posted by ken:
quote:I assure you that we don't bar members of Forward in Faith from ministering in our churches. Whatever gave you the idea that we did?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[qb]I'm not sure though about some other Anglican Churches (to which I wouldn't be allowed to be a Eucharistic Minister in anyway because I'm a member of Forward in Faith and most Anglican Churches in this area have Women priests
quote:i have a rather unplesent thought about what you could be meaning by this, i hope i'm wrong, prehaps you could elucidate?
11Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. 12Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
quote:NOW - you could say that my incident with the lady could be wrong according to this passage and that I should've behaved honourably, but also this could all be used against you as none of you have shown me how nice you all can be, you've all attacked me like wolves on this thread.
I urge you, my dear friends, as strangers and nomads to keep yourselves free from the disordered natural inclinations that attack the soul. Always behave honourably amoung gintiles so that they can see for themselves what moral lives you lead, and when they day of reckoning comes, give thanks to God for the things which now make them denounce you as criminals
quote:You have been marked forever as a member of one, holy Anglican church. Not only do you have a Bible, apparently you use it.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Right, my bible has just fallen open onto a quote that I think is relevant to this thread.
1 Peter 2:11-12
-103
quote:Uh? My Local RC Church has Bible Study on Thursday Evenings!
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:You have been marked forever as a member of one, holy Anglican church. Not only do you have a Bible, apparently you use it.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Right, my bible has just fallen open onto a quote that I think is relevant to this thread.
1 Peter 2:11-12
-103
All my good fundy friends tell me that nothing in the Roman church is based upon the Bible.
quote:Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
NOW - you could say that my incident with the lady could be wrong according to this passage and that I should've behaved honourably, but also this could all be used against you as none of you have shown me how nice you all can be, you've all attacked me like wolves on this thread.
quote:My dear, dear 103. Is it a required of the members of Forward in Frocks to have the funny bone surgically removed? You would probably have a nicer time of it all if you would learn how to laugh.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Uh? My Local RC Church has Bible Study on Thursday Evenings!
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:You have been marked forever as a member of one, holy Anglican church. Not only do you have a Bible, apparently you use it.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Right, my bible has just fallen open onto a quote that I think is relevant to this thread.
1 Peter 2:11-12
-103
All my good fundy friends tell me that nothing in the Roman church is based upon the Bible.
I think your fundy friends have been told lies! (Exodus 20:16)
-103
quote:My point was that their argument, which BTW I do not subscribe to, is that a priest is something that only a man can be in the way that a mother is something that only a woman can be. I might want with all my heart to bear a child, I might feel that I have the right to bear a child, I might even claim to be oppressed because I can't bear a child. I still can't bear a child, though because I am a man, and men can't bear children. It has nothing to do with being good enough for the job. As to what it is that makes priesthood male, it has to do, I think, with the fact that the priesthood has till now, been entirely male with some arguable exceptions like St. Brigid, that the priest is the image of Christ in the Eucharist and must therefore be the same gender, and other things probably better covered in Dead Horses. I think it's a load of hogwash, but it still has nothing to do with being good enough. You can't ignore the theological arguments and get all insulted over an argument that isn't even being made, though you might suspect it underlies the theological arguments.
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
quote:I'm not quite seeing your point. The reason that women aren't ordained in the RCC is not becuase spiritually they're different, etc, but solely based on their gender. Not being able to bear children doesn't make you a man, you could be an infertile woman. That's biology. Biologically, women can give the eucharist, so long as they are able to use their arms, toes, nose, whatever it takes. The sole restriction is that they're women. Not that they can't physically do it, or that spiritually they are less then men, but that they just are women. But men can administer the eucharist. Were a woman to make all the same vows, etc as a man she'd still be prohibited. What other way is there to interpret it than "women aren't good enough?"
Originally posted by shareman:
quote:<tangent in support of 103>
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
I don't get it, if your mother wouldn't be good enough to give you comunion or bless you, why does she get any way in which church you're a member of?
Well, it's not about "good enough" unless you think that my inability to bear a child is not because I'm a man, but because I'm somehow not "good enough". And I support women priests, but if you're going to counter argue, then argue against what the other side is actually saying. They might be a bunch of neanderthals, but their arguments still need to be countered.
<end of tangent>
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Only groups like "REFORM" think that women priests are a bad idea and have a entirely scriptual reason and I'm not at all like REFORM
-103
quote:ok. let me check this point - you take the POPE to be more of an authority than the BIBLE?
Actually - I might be in favour of women priests if the Pope said it was ok but he hasn't so that's it!
-103
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!
quote:Where does the BIBLE say that women should be ordained priests.
ok. let me check this point - you take the POPE to be more of an authority than the BIBLE?
he's just a man, a bloke, a person, a human, a guy. Even if he's in an authority position over the RC church, he's not Jesus, is he?
quote:The Pope is the Vicar of Christ and, as such, wields rather more say over the Church than one in 'an authority position'.
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Even if he's in an authority position over the RC church, he's not Jesus, is he?
quote:Actually, if those RCs are genuflecting to your church's reserved sacrament and receiving communion, they aren't properly following the teachings of the RCC.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
....And as for the mass at my old church not being valid in my new church, well I'll be sharing a common view with all the RCs who come to my church to hear the choir, the genuflect and they recieve communion. Shows enough respect I think.
-103
quote:then you need to find more reliable RC mentors, someone like Trisagion. Your RC priest friend, among many other influences, seems to be teaching you a rather dodgy cathecism.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
....I'm glad that I'll be able to leave the confusion and the uncertainty of the CofE that I experience behind and I'll be able to live my life in a denomination that I think is strong and united in beliefs.
quote:I was given a Roman Catholic Cathecism at my First Communion by my PP.
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:Actually, if those RCs are genuflecting to your church's reserved sacrament and receiving communion, they aren't properly following the teachings of the RCC.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
....And as for the mass at my old church not being valid in my new church, well I'll be sharing a common view with all the RCs who come to my church to hear the choir, the genuflect and they recieve communion. Shows enough respect I think.
-103
And since one of your reasons for wanting to swim the Tiber is to part of a church where everyone acknowledges and faithfully follows a single set of rules, as evidenced by this earlier quote,
quote:then you need to find more reliable RC mentors, someone like Trisagion. Your RC priest friend, among many other influences, seems to be teaching you a rather dodgy cathecism.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
....I'm glad that I'll be able to leave the confusion and the uncertainty of the CofE that I experience behind and I'll be able to live my life in a denomination that I think is strong and united in beliefs.
It is one thing the be following the path of an active heretic within a faith tradition (it definitely forces a pretty much continual examination of conscience), and there are also grounds for discussion, dissent, and different practices. But none of these are an excuse for misrepresenting the official beliefs and teachings of the RC Church when it has taken such pains to clarify the teachings in excruciating detail.
Which leads to the question - do you have a copy of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church, 103? If not, you need to get one, and you need to look things up in it. If you think the 39 Articles are beyond the pale and unacceptable, I want to hear what you make of the RCC Cathecism in all its lengthy and detailed glory.
quote:where did I comment on whether women should be ordained or not?
Originally posted by Callan:
Where does the BIBLE say that women should be ordained priests.
Foolish child.
Or should that be: FOOLISH CHILD.
)quote:apart from the fact that Christ is quite capable of being his own vicar, the pope could have as much authority as is possible to imbue him with, but still not exceed or even equal that of Christ. Therefore it still seems pretty odd to put the pope's opinion above Scripture's teaching.
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ and, as such, wields rather more say over the Church than one in 'an authority position'.
quote:Step one has been accomplished.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I was given a Roman Catholic Cathecism at my First Communion by my PP.
-103
quote:That was my reaction too!
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:Step one has been accomplished.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I was given a Roman Catholic Cathecism at my First Communion by my PP.
-103
Now, read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest.
If you have any questions, I have a friend from high school with a PhD from Fordham in New York that teaches at a Roman college somewhere in the US. I could pass your questions on to him.
(Oh, and when his students told him that there was a new pope, and—when pressed further for indentification—was told it was some guy from Germany, his immediate response in front of God and everyone [quoting exactly from his e-mail] was "SHIT!" I hear he wasn't alone.)
quote:Do you really have so little understanding of the reason Roman Catholics tend to regard the Pope as an authority here?
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I simply said that it is rather weird of 103 to say he believes they shouldn't be because the pope says so but not because of any scriptural reason.
quote:Actually that appears to be totally untrue, because it's nonsense. A vicar is one who stands in the place of someone, or represents them while they're away, and standing in place of yourself is meaningless.
apart from the fact that Christ is quite capable of being his own vicar,
quote:Quite so but irrelevant.
the pope could have as much authority as is possible to imbue him with, but still not exceed or even equal that of Christ.
quote:Where does it prohibit women priests in Scripture again?
Therefore it still seems pretty odd to put the pope's opinion above Scripture's teaching.
quote:I believe there's something in one of the letters about not letting women speak in church...
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Where does it prohibit women priests in Scripture again?
quote:Like Lydia, the seller of purple and leader of the first European church?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:I believe there's something in one of the letters about not letting women speak in church...
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Where does it prohibit women priests in Scripture again?
quote:never seen any reference in the Bible to the institution of popes myself, although I know some people do.
(L&D)I simply said that it is rather weird of 103 to say he believes they shouldn't be because the pope says so but not because of any scriptural reason.
(GF) Do you really have so little understanding of the reason Roman Catholics tend to regard the Pope as an authority here?
Hint: It's Biblical. You just might not agree with the interpretation.
quote:and Christ needs a representative because?
(L&D)apart from the fact that Christ is quite capable of being his own vicar,
(GF) Actually that appears to be totally untrue, because it's nonsense. A vicar is one who stands in the place of someone, or represents them while they're away, and standing in place of yourself is meaningless.
quote:or, more succinctly
Acts 1
4 On one occasion, while he [Jesus] was eating with them, he gave them this command: Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptised with water, but in a few days you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit. 6 So when they met together, they asked him, Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel? 7 He said to them: It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
<snip>
Acts 2
1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
quote:
surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
(Matt 28:20b)
quote:not in this case, as I was questioning how 103 could hold Scripture as being a lower authority than the pope. If Christ is in authority over the pope, surely Scripture must be so too.
(L&D) the pope could have as much authority as is possible to imbue him with, but still not exceed or even equal that of Christ.
(GF) Quite so but irrelevant.
quote:dunno - as I said in my previous post, I am militantly undecided on that issue.
(L&D) Therefore it still seems pretty odd to put the pope's opinion above Scripture's teaching.
(GF) Where does it prohibit women priests in Scripture again?
quote:And you have read and agree with all 2865 articles therein?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I was given a Roman Catholic Cathecism at my First Communion by my PP.
-103
quote:or Deborah the Judge if you want an OT example.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:Like Lydia, the seller of purple and leader of the first European church?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:I believe there's something in one of the letters about not letting women speak in church...
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Where does it prohibit women priests in Scripture again?
quote:OK. I think RooK is cute, too. And, his accent is very exciting.
Originally posted by Emma.:
Ive always thought you rather cute myself.
Hmmmm - argument about homosexuality anyone?
quote:Paul just treated her as such.
Originally posted by Grits:
(BTW, it never says that Lydia was the "leader" of the first European church.)
quote:I have a "safe list", too. Bet it doesn't look like any 103's.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Exactly - I'm also should refrain from making a parish which isn't on "The safe list" my usual parish and I also should avoid recieving communion in a church which has a Women Minister on the clergy list.
quote:Of course, HT. Any altar that has had a woman celebrate at it is contaminated beyond repair, surely you knew that. Although they might fetch a dollar or two on e-bay, no right-thinking FIFer would ever go near one.
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
If I understand this correctly, right-thinking F-i-Fers won't take Holy Communion, celebrated by a man in a parish that also has a lady priest serving in it?
quote:How do you read that from scripture? She was a worshipper of God, who responded to Paul's message and invited them to stay in her home, and she possibly served as the host home for the Christians there. You'd have to read an awful lot more into it to assume she had any teaching authority or otherwise.
Originally posted by The BAS:
Paul just treated her as such.
quote:1) Because she isn't the head of the Church of England, she is its governor.
Originally posted by Ariel:
I'd like to ask why, if the Queen is the head of the church in the UK, nobody in the course of this surreal, meandering 17-page thread has yet objected to her on the grounds of her being a woman.
quote:Because if Anglo-Catholics started objecting to old Queens the Catholic Movement of England would collapse.
I'd like to ask why, if the Queen is the head of the church in the UK, nobody in the course of this surreal, meandering 17-page thread has yet objected to her on the grounds of her being a woman.
quote:Don't get me started about the Monarchy, I think they are sucking the money out of the good working british person. Why should they be treated any differently to any of us? It's not fair!
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Because if Anglo-Catholics started objecting to old Queens the Catholic Movement of England would collapse.
I'd like to ask why, if the Queen is the head of the church in the UK, nobody in the course of this surreal, meandering 17-page thread has yet objected to her on the grounds of her being a woman.
quote:I suggest that more people email eBay they will HAVE to change their policy because of popular demand.
Hello,
Thank you for writing in to Safe Harbor with your concerns, I will be
happy to assist you.
We understand that you are upset at having seen certain Catholic items
or items related to the Pope on eBay, including item #6169851381.
Because eBay’s community is a diverse, international group of more than
135 million users with varied backgrounds and beliefs, there are times
when some items listed on eBay by sellers might be offensive to at least
some of our users somewhere in the world. At times, members may see
listings that they may consider morally wrong or objectionable. However,
even though these listings may be offensive to some, please remember
that most of the time the law does not prohibit the items.
Due to the fact that eBay’s focus is to have a free and diverse
community, we are reluctant to interfere with listings that are not
illegal. Regarding offensive items, there are many items that are
considered sacred to many people of various religions, and we sometimes
hear complaints about these items. Examples would be Catholic relics of
saints, Mormon (LDS) garments, certain Buddhist tablets, etc. However,
eBay has made the decision not to prohibit any item only on the basis of
the item being endowed with sacred properties by certain religious
groups. In general, eBay will remove items for a violation of our
Offensive Materials policy only in extreme examples in which the listing
explicitly promotes hatred, violence, or racial intolerance. However, we
do not remove religious items that are otherwise legal for sale and do
not violate any other eBay listing policy.
Please keep in mind that many of us at eBay may also share your distaste
with an item, and may not support the sale. In fact, eBay has many
Catholic employees. However, we do our best to understand and tolerate
the many viewpoints held by our worldwide community. The Eucharist is
not illegal to sell, and is generally allowed on eBay as long as the
seller does not otherwise include hateful text or images in the listing.
Although we realize that you may not agree with this decision on eBay’s
part, we hope that you can respect the diverse and open nature of eBay’s
marketplace.
We do appreciate you writing in to express your concerns.
Regards,
Birke T.
eBay Community Watch
quote:Nope, I think it is a well constructed marketing response. eBay has 8,100 employees. Some of those are bound to be from almost any religion you can imagine. Swap "Catholic" for "Mormon" for "Muslim" and you can make this letter respond to anyone who complains about religious artifacts being sold on eBay.
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
"Please keep in mind that many of us at eBay may also share your distaste with an item, and may not support the sale. In fact, eBay has many Catholic employees."
This sounded very personal, at least to my reading. I think this person agrees with your position and is expressing that as much as possible within job constraints.
quote:You are always free to stop reading it, which has the effect of closing the thread as far as you are concerned. Works for me when I don't like a thread.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
(I would love to see this thread closed again!)
quote:Bad move Henry -- I think you just lost your only supporter. Cosmo is a monarchist.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Don't get me started about the Monarchy, I think they are sucking the money out of the good working british person. Why should they be treated any differently to any of us? It's not fair!
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:Because if Anglo-Catholics started objecting to old Queens the Catholic Movement of England would collapse.
I'd like to ask why, if the Queen is the head of the church in the UK, nobody in the course of this surreal, meandering 17-page thread has yet objected to her on the grounds of her being a woman.
I personally would like to see them chucked off their throne, kicked out of their homes, their money taken from them and fairly distributed amoung the people and told to get jobs like the rest of us!
-103
quote:He did stop reading it. For about 20 seconds after he posted a apology and announced that he was withdrawing from discussion.
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:You are always free to stop reading it, which has the effect of closing the thread as far as you are concerned. Works for me when I don't like a thread.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
(I would love to see this thread closed again!)
On the other hand, if you continue to read it and feel compelled to respond to what you consider mistaken (or worse) beliefs and practices and points of view, then that's your personal problem, so deal with it.
quote:Er...do we see *anyone* taking the role of priest in the NT? Other than Jesus?
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Personally I think the argument that women could be priests is quite weak since we don't see women taking that role but in the NT. I think the argument that they should be Bishops or Deacons is quite strong since a number of women seem to be taking those roles.
quote:then you have to wear the vicissitudes of market forces - ebay's choice to make what to some is a piece of bread (viz Nightlamp) and to others is a sign of sacred faith is a simply free market decision.
I think they are sucking the money out of the good working british person. Why should they be treated any differently to any of us? It's not fair!
I'd just excercise free market choice and lead them to a gaol under, say, militant theocratic (Muslim or US military) management for a little bit of soul search time.
quote:No, sacrificing animals and all that seems to have been Right Out. Which is just as well since the Romans had it in for that Temple.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Er...do we see *anyone* taking the role of priest in the NT?
quote:I didn't think the thread needed much in the way of support meself.
I don't see why they should change their policy about selling a piece of bread.
quote:Sorry, can't let that go unanswered:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Don't get me started about the Monarchy
quote:The good working british person is a royalist. And he has been "sithen the sege and the assaut was sessed at Troye" and Brutus founded the country.
I think they are sucking the money out of the good working british person.
quote:Because kingship is instituted of God and delights the hearts of free men. Because it is right that there should be someone to receive, as well as to give, oaths of national loyalty. Because this is as fair and blessed a land as any on God's good earth, and deserves to be ruled by a King or Queen.
Why should they be treated any differently to any of us?
quote:"Not fair"? The cry of the churlish throughout the ages. You can do better.
It's not fair!
quote:Go on then. You know where Her Majesty lives, I take it?
I personally would like to see them chucked off their throne, kicked out of their homes,
quote:Didn't you say a while ago that you weren't a marxist?
their money taken from them and fairly distributed amoung the people
quote:It's a cheap shot, I know, but DO you have a job? (And I don't mean a paper round).
and told to get jobs like the rest of us!
quote:just the one? well, that's not so bad, is it?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
good working british person
quote:was more than a cheap shot, and was playing the man, not the ball. 103 has every right to his views whatever his employment record, and I regret and apologise for any personal disparagement.
Originally posted by Eliab:
It's a cheap shot, I know, but DO you have a job? (And I don't mean a paper round).
quote:As noted by the junior host badge wearing banshee above, you'll not be doing such suggesting on these boards. Do not use this forum as a means to recruit others for any purpose, unless you have specific authorization from the Ship's Administration.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I suggest that more people email eBay they will HAVE to change their policy because of popular demand.
quote:Sorry, Redcoat. This sad testimony was corrected at Yorktown in 1781.
Originally posted by Eliab:
[...] Because kingship is instituted of God and delights the hearts of free men...
quote:Eliab is possibly missing the point - as a schoolboy, 103 (no hyphen) doesn't have an employment record and, ergo, it's somewhat presumptuous of him to be telling other people to get a job.
Originally posted by Eliab:
On reflection this: >snip< was more than a cheap shot, and was playing the man, not the ball. 103 has every right to his views whatever his employment record.
quote:Ooooo. Are they house-broken? Do they take up much space? And do they eat carrots?
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Presbyterpriests aren't all that bad though, when you get used to them.
quote:Rebel Gort,
Originally posted by Gort:
Sorry, Redcoat. This sad testimony was corrected at Yorktown in 1781.
quote:I think that's rather a good letter / response actually.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Back to the OP - I emailed eBay about changing their policy concerning the Blessed Sacrament this is what I recieved back:
...
quote:Don't you just love the phrase "popular demand"? I know I do. It sounds so energetic or something. And so right. Of course it also makes me think of torch-carrying peasants marching on the castle. Or possibly a Betty Hutton musical being held over for a second week at the Bijou. But not a lot of outraged church-going types picketing e-Bay. (How would you picket e-Bay, come to think of it?)
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I suggest that more people email eBay they will HAVE to change their policy because of popular demand.
quote:Was it QV who complained that Mr Gladstone talked to her as if she were a public meeting?
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(Has anybody else noticed that 103's literary style somewhat resembles that of Queen Victoria's private letters? Particularly where she talks about Gladstone. Or is it just me?)
quote:Well I have been trying to think of a way of channelling Wood.
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Don't know Nightlamp, but are you trying to summon up the Catholic heavy artillery with this?
quote:I didn't think the thread needed much in the way of support meself.
I don't see why they should change their policy about selling a piece of bread.
quote:Don't give him the compliment! I'm sure he is of the opinion that Her Late Majesty (who, as we knows, waits like Arthur to redeem her people in their hour of need) was but a portly kraut tick sucking on the blood of her people, and that he would much rather be compared to someone of real intellect and social worth like, say, himself.
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(Has anybody else noticed that 103's literary style somewhat resembles that of Queen Victoria's private letters? Particularly where she talks about Gladstone. Or is it just me?)
quote:says Anne, with her quote of lyrics, and of course you're right, Anne. But the lyrics are quite attention-getting; I must Google them all out so I can read them.
Surely that doesn't belong here
quote:Think about Britney Spears.
Well I have been trying to think of a way of channelling Wood.
quote:No.
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(Has anybody else noticed that 103's literary style somewhat resembles that of Queen Victoria's private letters?
quote:It's just you.
Particularly where she talks about Gladstone. Or is it just me?)
quote:WEll if the nation did tear up the deal it made with the QUeen on her accession and stopped paying, presumably she would resume actual ownership of all the assets she turned over to the nation in return.
Originally posted by Papio.:
I know this a tangent, but if the British government stopped giving the Royals any of the money raised by taxation and instead used it to fund welfare prgrammes, for example, it wouldn't be robbery. It might be a shit idea as far as various people are concerned, but not robbery.
quote:OK, I'll come clean and admit that I hadn't thought of that. I stand corrected on that issue.
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:WEll if the nation did tear up the deal it made with the QUeen on her accession and stopped paying, presumably she would resume actual ownership of all the assets she turned over to the nation in return.
Originally posted by Papio.:
I know this a tangent, but if the British government stopped giving the Royals any of the money raised by taxation and instead used it to fund welfare prgrammes, for example, it wouldn't be robbery. It might be a shit idea as far as various people are concerned, but not robbery.
Last time I checked, the nation has won on that deal for several generations.
Which would mean LESS money for social programs and so on.
Unless you are actually saying you like the idea of unilaterally breaking a legal deal and want to deprive her of both her assets and the the income paid by the nation in return for using them.
JOhn
quote:like traffic noise?
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Presbyterpriests aren't all that bad though, when you get used to them.
quote:anything to do with planet earth - or has his buyer been 'done'
From what I understand, if you're holding something in your hand during a certain moment when Pope John Paul II spoke during his mass, whetever it becomes blessed.
quote:suggest that the servers at that particular mass
I ate one wafer then I went back and got another one to save and he gave me another one, but I did get a very dirty look!
quote:take less of a strict approach to the consumption & distribution of Communion than others on this thread (notably 103
this is the actual Eucharist I saved during the mass that I participated in on October 18th, 1998
) and does that make them (esp 103 ) more authentic in their enactment / outworking of their transubstantiationary belief than the servers back in October '98? ad the quote:would suggest that (if the seller is genuine) that the servers might have been aware of his having come back for second helpings.
I did get a very dirty look!
As you become as ancient and wrinkly as some of the posters here, you've got plenty time to mellow in that regard though!
quote:[flagrant tangent continued]
Originally posted by Eliab:
Rebel Gort,
Yorktown was (much as it pains my English soul to write it) a French victory...
quote:At least, in this case, it is safe to say:
Originally posted by dorcas:
quote:Was it QV who complained that Mr Gladstone talked to her as if she were a public meeting?
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(Has anybody else noticed that 103's literary style somewhat resembles that of Queen Victoria's private letters? Particularly where she talks about Gladstone. Or is it just me?)
In which case, would that make 103 a Gladstone clone? Or a QV clone? Not sure which is worse...
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:No.
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(Has anybody else noticed that 103's literary style somewhat resembles that of Queen Victoria's private letters?
quote:Possibly it was the extensive use of exclamation marks I had in mind.
Beloved child, I cannot say what my feelings of horror and indignation are, or how frightfully iniquitous I think this declaration of war! My heart boils and bleeds at the thought of what misery and suffering will be caused by this act of mad folly! And just when all that we and Leopold B. were asked to obtain to settle the question had been obtained!
quote:Makes me think of a bustling day at an IKEA twice yearly sale. "We demand a break on Billy wall units! Yes, we do!"
Don't you just love the phrase "popular demand"? I know I do. It sounds so energetic or something. And so right. Of course it also makes me think of torch-carrying peasants marching on the castle. Or possibly a Betty Hutton musical being held over for a second week at the Bijou. But not a lot of outraged church-going types picketing e-Bay. (How would you picket e-Bay, come to think of it?)
quote:"Talking through his hat" is a polite way of describing it. That bottle-opener is no more blessed than the four in my kitchen drawer.
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
was this claim by the seller:
quote:anything to do with planet earth - or has his buyer been 'done'
From what I understand, if you're holding something in your hand during a certain moment when Pope John Paul II spoke during his mass, whetever it becomes blessed.
quote:any suggestions where the seller got his idea from? could he as a non-RC possibly have misunderstood something - or is he just a liar/muppet?
Originally posted by rosamundi:
"Talking through his hat" is a polite way of describing it. That bottle-opener is no more blessed than the four in my kitchen drawer.
Certainly the Eucharistic Ministers should not have permitted him to take a second Host, but I imagine that it's a bit difficult to keep track of everyone at a Papal Mass.
quote:pourquoi?
This thread is like Peter Sellers in "The Seven faces of Dr. No."
quote:Quite right. This thread is in serious danger of reverting to the OP.
Originally posted by Gort:
[flagrant tangent continued]
quote:Certainly they did. For a start, the sleepy krauts provided General Washington with a victory at Trenton in the winter of 1776 (at the very lowest point of the patriots' cause).
I suppose the 30,000 Germans George III hired for his dirty work had no bearing on the outcome of the war.
quote:Hmmm. Which is why, I suppose, almost all of the black slaves, and a goodly part of the American Indians, who took part in the war picked the British side. Good old oppressors that they were.
We still threw off the yoke of oppression and dictatorship.
quote:I wouldn't say it is necessarily, though it certainly is in the UK (it does symbolise freedom that, for example, the courts of justice are constituted in the name of the Queen, and that the armed forces owe allegiance to her, not to the ruling party of government). That monarchy is congenial to the free (and is detested by the servile) I assert is true without requiring further explanation. The best example is that of Jesus Christ, who promised his disciples freedom, and also promised to establish a kingdom. Does any Christian feel that his freedom is the less because his Saviour is King of Creation? No. Nor is my freedom the less because Elizabeth is Queen of England.
Originally posted by Papio.:
I also completely fail to see why the Monarchy is a symbol of freedom.
quote:Ye gods!
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
It's always good to hear something good about France. Thanks!
quote:Not until I followed your link. Such a great sermon! Very thought provoking and certainly revealed a new aspect of "dogma" for me. I'm often guilty of ignoring the fundamental role of love in Christianity during my diatribes. Alan Jones is a great speaker. Thanks for the reference!
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Oh, Brother Gort,
One of the many tangents in this thread involved dogma. Did you listen to the sermon from Grace Cathedral-San Francisco for Good Shepherd Sunday (17 April 2005).
quote:Oops. Didn't see this this morning.
Originally posted by Gort:
BTW: Welcome back Sine. What's your take on stolen eucharist...Plan 9 from Hell? or acceptable commercialism?
quote:Blaspheming moral relativist! Get your butt over here.
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
...That takes a certain amount of dedication to being upset that's either admirable or worrying depending on one's point of view.
quote:Possibly. But I still seem to be stuck on Micah 6:8. I'm glad to know others are more advanced however. It's an inspiration.
Originally posted by Gort:
Blaspheming moral relativist!
quote:Are you speaking from personal experience here?
Originally posted by Gort:
It's difficult to be humble when you are always right.
quote:You want the truth?
Originally posted by Gort:
Please, gentlemen. I was refering to the Micah verse. Do I seem like a know-it-all around here?
quote:It's entirely possible he could have misunderstood something. After all, some Catholics don't have a full grasp on what their own church teaches, why should an "outsider," for want of a better word, have a full understanding?
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
any suggestions where the seller got his idea from? could he as a non-RC possibly have misunderstood something - or is he just a liar/muppet?
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
...and Mousethief and I, who are both humble and quiet types, find that a bit intimidating.
quote:glad that's sorted then ;o)
quote:Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
any suggestions where the seller got his idea from? could he as a non-RC possibly have misunderstood something - or is he just a liar/muppet?
It's entirely possible he could have misunderstood something. After all, some Catholics don't have a full grasp on what their own church teaches, why should an "outsider," for want of a better word, have a full understanding?
Alternatively, he could be a liar/muppet.
quote:I should probably take offense or something. Do you have one I could take?
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
sorry - something caught in my throat.
quote:er, no - but I found a couple of cough sweets helped my aforementined temporary affliction - maybe you could find an offence to take from eBay?
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:I should probably take offense or something. Do you have one I could take?
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
sorry - something caught in my throat.
quote:Do you know, I genuinely have no idea. I was thinking about this at Mass yesterday (ooops) and I really couldn't think of a single point in the Mass that could be construed as conferring an automatic blessing on anything.
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
glad that's sorted then
was hoping for suggestions on what on earth he could have misinterpreted to get the blessed-things-in-hand idea?!?
quote:Thank you. It's a piece of handmade Honiton lace that a friend made for me, because Deborah is from the Hebrew for "bee".
[unhellish tangent] I do like your avatar Rosamundi - it's very pretty [/unhellish tangent]
quote:Works for HRH Charles.
Originally posted by Ariel:
If your criterion is No Women, there's always Mount Athos.
quote:Yeah, but they don't have priests with ovaries*, which is far, far more important than anything else.
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ah, but unfortunately they're schismatic Orthodox monks rather than monks of the Really One and Only Truly True Church, aren't they?
quote:I don't have a problem with female EM's, An Extraordinary minister of the Eucharist does not Celebrate the Eucharist! Also my G/F is a Eucharistic Minister and she would kill me if I didn't approve of her...
Originally posted by Ariel:
Thinking about the "safe list" this afternoon, it occurred to me that if 103 converts he's still going to have to have a "safe list" of places he can go in order to avoid women handing out Communion.
I suggest he starts compiling a list of monasteries that have services open to the public.
quote:We now only have 1 active priest at our church who can celebrate at the 10:30 Mass.
Originally posted by Thurible:
I've just had a thought -103 - does your church have extraordinary Eucharistic ministers every week? If so, why? The idea is that they are extra-ordinary.
Also, is your girlfriend a eucharistic minister at your church? Rome does discourage women from serving at the Altar/being eucharistic ministers when there are men available.
Certainly, there should be lay eucharistic ministers when there are clergy around.
Thurible
quote:1) They needn't celebrate - but they could robe and administer.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
We now only have 1 active priest at our church who can celebrate at the 10:30 Mass.
We have 6 Eucharist Stations.
If Rome discourages Women from serving/being EMs why does a certain RC Church that I go to have an entirely female serving team and an almost entirely female EM team?
I sat behind two teenage guys at the mass who could've served but they didn't.
At my own church we try to keep the Male/Female ratio 50:50
Our sister church though doesn't like Women in the Sanctuary... at all!
P.S. My G/F wouldn't be seen dead at my church, she goes to a certain Anglican Church which is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, she asked me if my "vicar" wore robes during "The Lord's Supper"!
-103
quote:Believe me, myself and another shipmate tried to find out by emailing them, we recieved no reply.
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:1) They needn't celebrate - but they could robe and administer.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
We now only have 1 active priest at our church who can celebrate at the 10:30 Mass.
We have 6 Eucharist Stations.
If Rome discourages Women from serving/being EMs why does a certain RC Church that I go to have an entirely female serving team and an almost entirely female EM team?
I sat behind two teenage guys at the mass who could've served but they didn't.
At my own church we try to keep the Male/Female ratio 50:50
Our sister church though doesn't like Women in the Sanctuary... at all!
P.S. My G/F wouldn't be seen dead at my church, she goes to a certain Anglican Church which is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, she asked me if my "vicar" wore robes during "The Lord's Supper"!
-103
2) I've no idea - perhaps you should ask the priest there why he's not following their guidelines.
Thurible
quote:what's so "!" about that? ours don't. The church is anglican. I reckon (although, funnily enough, I don't tend to look at the clergy's clothes during Communion, having more important things on the old "to-think" list then) about 50% of the anglican Communions I've attended have been served by dog-collared people, and the other 50% not.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
she goes to a certain Anglican Church which is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, she asked me if my "vicar" wore robes during "The Lord's Supper"!
-103
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
why not serve the congregation in their seats?
I have a wonderful image in my mind of 103 (no hyphen) climbing over all the little old ladies in the pews, dishing out hosts and demanding that they eat them NOW!!!![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Corpusquote:Kneeling at the altar rail during Easter or on a Sunday?
Originally posted by Thurible:
Oh, I missed the "6 stations" bit - WHY?!!?!
How many communicants are there at your church? Thousands? Or would kneeling at the Altar rail be perfectly adequate?
Thurible
quote:Sounds like one of those co-dependent relationships.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
...Also my G/F is a Eucharistic Minister and she would kill me if I didn't approve of her...
quote:Perfectly acceptable in the Roman Rite, which is the one it seems that -103's church follows slavishly on some issues.
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:Kneeling at the altar rail during Easter or on a Sunday?
Originally posted by Thurible:
Oh, I missed the "6 stations" bit - WHY?!!?!
How many communicants are there at your church? Thousands? Or would kneeling at the Altar rail be perfectly adequate?
Thurible
quote:How very bigoted of them, even more so than I remember from my time as a RC...
Originally posted by Thurible:
Rome does discourage women from serving at the Altar/being eucharistic ministers when there are men available.
quote:Oooooh yes!
Originally posted by Scot:
103 has a girlfriend?!
Bet they have fascinating discussions )
quote:Before you all get your panties in a knot, I should point out that Thurible is 100% wrong on this.
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
quote:How very bigoted of them, even more so than I remember from my time as a RC...
Originally posted by Thurible:
Rome does discourage women from serving at the Altar/being eucharistic ministers when there are men available.
Even if women are thought not to be able to do the consecration for whatever strange interpretation of the Bible and history, if lay people can hand out hosts, why on Earth shouldn't women do it? And if they can do it, why shouldn't they do it with equal responsibility to men?
[heaves sigh of relief that am now Anglican]
The church where my mum served as a Eucharistic minister had about 2,000 people on a Sunday. In a predominantly female congregation, it seems to me to make perfect sense to have predominantly female Eucharistic ministers - it makes practical sense.
quote:The Church is precise in its use of "lay people" in para 803. There's a tacit encouragement of boys to be altar servers, because they believe that's where the next generation of priests come from. But no question about it - girls and women are as legitimate altar servers as boys. It is dealt with in Redemptonis Sacramentum.
Originally posted by Thurible:
I withdraw that, then. In my naievete, I had assumed that Rome would offer the same guidelines on EEMs as it does on altar servers. Evidently not.
Thurible
quote:It isn't?!
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
posting on the ship isn't a cool thing to do
-103
quote:maybe both of our churches will be raided by crack teams of tat-enforcers.
Originally posted by Emma.:
vicars not robing for communion is illegial?!?!? Well Im pretty sure Ive never seen my vicar/ curates in robes.......
And at a weekend away he umed and ahhed about whether to wear his dog collar for the service.
quote:From Canon B8 of the Church of England:
Originally posted by Emma.:
vicars not robing for communion is illegial?!?!? Well Im pretty sure Ive never seen my vicar/ curates in robes.......
quote:It may be nice but no they can't. As GreyFace's link makes clear, the Canons of the Church of England are very clear about what has to be worn at the celebration of an Occasional Office (which is what a wedding is).
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
At weddings / memorials the couple / family can opt for the cleric on duty to be robed, dog-collared or not, which is nice.
quote:not at the annunciation, not being RC, but on Ascension Day we most defintely have at least one service. Maundy Thursday & Ash Wednesday likewise - etc, etc.
Originally posted by Cosmo:
I bet those clerics who don't wear robes don't bother with celebrating the Holy Communion on Ascension Day or the Annunciation.
quote:
Greyface said:
Your ministers are breaking the rules, Emma.
quote:Apparently the bishop may grant permission for a vicar not to robe for a service. I believe it's ok 'on special occasions', which certain bishops may define as every Sunday if the vicar asks.
Cosmo agreed:
Those clerics who don't wear 'robes' for Mass or the Offices are not just breaking the rules but they are, in fact, breaking the law.
quote:What's not being Roman Catholic got to do with celebrating the Annunciation? The Annunciation of Our Lord to the Blessed Virgin Mary is a red-letter day in the Church of England.
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
not at the annunciation, not being RC,
quote:Eh? Please explain. Are you claiming the Annunciation is no longer celebrated by Anglicans, or any other non-RC churches for that matter?
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
not at the annunciation, not being RC
quote:I assume Cosmo was implying that a willingness to break the law on the question of vestments might indicate a willingness to break it on the question of feast days - both stemming, from, I assume, a rejection of anything that looks like Catholicism.
what does wearing robes have to do with whether you celebrate Communion on particular special days?
quote:True, but it does mean that they're explicitly refusing to follow the rules, and denying the right of the Church of England to make such rules. Is there a good reason for it?
just because they don't dress up in strange outfits doesn't mean that the sacrament of Communion is not viewed as a very important event each and every time it is celebrated.
quote:Many? Can you back this up? My best guess would be that you would only find this in an evangelical church in England, which chops it down to something like a third of the C of E to start with. My experience has been that a large portion of C of E evangelicals are low church traditional, where you would find low church vestments in use, and finally each new-style evangelical place I've been to (not many, admittedly) has had priests that decided to follow the rules in respect of alb + stole, even when the service was pushing the boundaries of what Common Worship allows for Holy Communion.
illegal or not, many other anglican churches do the same thing - even when there's a bish in attendance.
quote:I would suggest that the definitions of acceptable vestments in the canon mean that a bishop should not do this, and that that provision is truly there to give the bishop discretion on special occasions, not to bypass the canon entirely.
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Apparently the bishop may grant permission for a vicar not to robe for a service. I believe it's ok 'on special occasions', which certain bishops may define as every Sunday if the vicar asks.
quote:Eh? Are you really suggesting that one church's rules about vestments are as important as scripture?
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Funny how those clergy so blase about robes are those so hot on the authority of scripture
quote:Anecdotal eviodence from CofE evangelical churches I've attended enough times to have a good idea how they dress (i.e. more than just the occasional visit) & remember well enough. Roughly chronological order, going back some years.
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Many? Can you back this up? My best guess would be that you would only find this in an evangelical church in England, which chops it down to something like a third of the C of E to start with. My experience has been that a large portion of C of E evangelicals are low church traditional, where you would find low church vestments in use, and finally each new-style evangelical place I've been to (not many, admittedly) has had priests that decided to follow the rules in respect of alb + stole, even when the service was pushing the boundaries of what Common Worship allows for Holy Communion.
quote:No not necessarily. Merely that it depends on one's notion of ecclesiastical authority doesn't it? I find it odd that those clergy who call for the Church to be much tougher in disciplining those they see as flouting 'the clear teachings of scripture' are then willing to flout the Canons of that self-same church on things like vesture and Red Letter Day observance just because they don't see that the Church's authority in such a matter is important or relevant.
Originally posted by ken:
quote:Eh? Are you really suggesting that one church's rules about vestments are as important as scripture?
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Funny how those clergy so blase about robes are those so hot on the authority of scripture
quote:I think the reason for this is that there are actually not many female evangelical priests. There are female priests in evo churches because the bishop can't find anywhere else to put them. In any case, to slightly paraphrase the Bishop of Fulham, real evangelical women wouldn't want to be priests.
Originally posted by ken:
So my small & not very statistical sample seems to imply that female evangelical priests (4 in the list above) take great care to dress as priests.
quote:so who are you to say how a bishop interprets the law? As I understand it on exception circumstances the vicar can do what he wants during a service.
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I would suggest that the definitions of acceptable vestments in the canon mean that a bishop should not do this, .
quote:Well, yes, which is why it was merely a suggestion. But I'd have to ask, what the point is of the canon at all, if the intention of those who wrote it was to allow anyone who happened to have an evangelical bishop, to do what they liked.
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
so who are you to say how a bishop interprets the law?
quote:which canon obligates a parish to celebrate communion on the Annunciation?
Originally posted by Cosmo:
It merely means that he can exempt a place from their obligation to celebrate the Holy Communion on the Annunciation (for example)
quote:I think it's the combination of B14(1):
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
which canon obligates a parish to celebrate communion on the Annunciation?
quote:and B6(2):
The Holy Communion shall be celebrated in every parish church at least on all Sundays and principal Feast Days, and on Ash Wednesday and Maundy Thursday. It shall be celebrated distinctly, reverently, and in an audible voice.
quote:
The principal Feasts which are to be observed in the Church of England are Christmas Day, Epiphany, the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Easter Day, Ascension Day, Whitsunday or Pentecost, Trinity Sunday and All Saints' Day.
quote:B6 defines it as a principal Feast Day, and B14 says you have to have Communion on such days. (Same link as for B8 in my post above)
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
which canon obligates a parish to celebrate communion on the Annunciation?
quote:Annunciation
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:Eh? Please explain. Are you claiming the Annunciation is no longer celebrated by Anglicans, or any other non-RC churches for that matter?
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
not at the annunciation, not being RC
quote:I assume Cosmo was implying that a willingness to break the law on the question of vestments might indicate a willingness to break it on the question of feast days - both stemming, from, I assume, a rejection of anything that looks like Catholicism.
what does wearing robes have to do with whether you celebrate Communion on particular special days?
quote:True, but it does mean that they're explicitly refusing to follow the rules, and denying the right of the Church of England to make such rules. Is there a good reason for it?
just because they don't dress up in strange outfits doesn't mean that the sacrament of Communion is not viewed as a very important event each and every time it is celebrated.
quote:Many? Can you back this up? My best guess would be that you would only find this in an evangelical church in England, which chops it down to something like a third of the C of E to start with. My experience has been that a large portion of C of E evangelicals are low church traditional, where you would find low church vestments in use, and finally each new-style evangelical place I've been to (not many, admittedly) has had priests that decided to follow the rules in respect of alb + stole, even when the service was pushing the boundaries of what Common Worship allows for Holy Communion.
illegal or not, many other anglican churches do the same thing - even when there's a bish in attendance.
So, is this as common as LND thinks?
quote:I assume you know that the Catholics, the Orthodox, and some high-profile Protestant theologians (Calvin, was it?) accept the perpetual virginity of Mary, and interpret the Greek differently? And that doesn't stop you calling Mary Blessed - as in Luke.
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Annunciation
we tend towards just calling her Mary (dropping the whole 'Blessed Virgin' bit, being as how she had other kids after Jesus, so presumably wasn't a virgin for long after His birth) - maybe there's a little morning Communion service or something - but it's not an 'event' like Ascension or similar
quote:Any evangelical care to comment? Exercise of sola scriptura? I think it's anti-Catholicism myself, not in a particularly negative sense I hasten to add.
Clothing-tat
don't know why not.
quote:I think not, because that would be a ridiculous reason. It would be more confusing to enter a church and find the vicar dressed in jeans. I don't mean to imply that I doubt your experiences - I believe you. But as you note yourself, you're self-selecting hard-core evangelical, less liturgical and so on.
I think the whole robes thing is so it doesn't make people who drop in to see what the tourist-attraction-type church does in its services confused.
quote:It would be interesting to have precise figures, but I can tell you the answer for England, at least. See Canon B8.
Would be interesting to have a surplus survey to see just what your 'average' anglican vicar steps out in for his(/her) usual Sunday services.
quote:Oh my! The old saw about opposites attracting does come to mind.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
P.S. My G/F wouldn't be seen dead at my church, she goes to a certain Anglican Church which is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, she asked me if my "vicar" wore robes during "The Lord's Supper"!
quote:So the evangelicals, obedient to their bishops as always, take direction from them as to who is an acceptable priest? But those naughty and uncanonical Anglocatholicians go their own way regardless?
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
I think the reason for this is that there are actually not many female evangelical priests. There are female priests in evo churches because the bishop can't find anywhere else to put them.
quote:To slightly paraphrase Mandy Rice Davis, he would say that, wouldn't he?
In any case, to slightly paraphrase the Bishop of Fulham, real evangelical women wouldn't want to be priests.
quote:That's right. Everybody comes over to the dark side eventually.
Originally posted by John Holding:
Dear heavens, I'm agreeing with Cosmo. Does anyone else feel a chill breeze?
quote:Actually - we're campaigning for the Liberal Democrats in the College Mock election!
Originally posted by Peronel:
Yeah. When normal teenagers are spending all their time in illicit furtling behind the bike sheds, or in dank and dark corners of the undergrowth, 103 and his lass are instead engaged in passionate discussions about the finer points of tat.
Ahhh well. At least it keeps them out of trouble
quote:Lex orandi...
Originally posted by ken:
quote:Eh? Are you really suggesting that one church's rules about vestments are as important as scripture?
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Funny how those clergy so blase about robes are those so hot on the authority of scripture
quote:Indeed. And having read the rest of this page, I have to keep reminding myself I'm not a host here.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Never mind Heck - this place is turning into Heccles.
We even have all of the usual suspects.
quote:We're going to have to exchange him for Squirrel at midnight on the north side of the Clifton Suspension Bridge.
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
been away for a long weekend I come back to find this thread has grown to an inordinately long length but 103 has not become a Roman
quote:One Lord. One Faith. One Board.
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:Indeed. And having read the rest of this page, I have to keep reminding myself I'm not a host here.
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Never mind Heck - this place is turning into Heccles.
quote:Ah - But squirrel wouldn't like my church! It'd be too FiF!
Originally posted by ken:
quote:We're going to have to exchange him for Squirrel at midnight on the north side of the Clifton Suspension Bridge.
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
been away for a long weekend I come back to find this thread has grown to an inordinately long length but 103 has not become a Roman
Come unarmed, and if you bring any archdeacons, the deal is off.
quote:a lot of people who drop in to our church are not from the UK so unless they are of an RC or an Orthodox background the robes might not be part of their expectation.
I think the whole robes thing is so it doesn't make people who drop in to see what the tourist-attraction-type church does in its services confused.
I think not, because that would be a ridiculous reason. It would be more confusing to enter a church and find the vicar dressed in jeans. I don't mean to imply that I doubt your experiences - I believe you. But as you note yourself, you're self-selecting hard-core evangelical, less liturgical and so on.
quote:yup - real progress has been made on all fronts.
Rather like the Mystery Worship of old then....
And having been away for a long weekend I come back to find this thread has grown to an inordinately long length but 103 has not become a Roman Catholic and I presume has not hissed at any more communicants.....
So nothing's changed then..!!!!
[teasing tag on]
He'd be a good parent though, as he'd make his offspring eat up all the greens....Eat it now!!!
[teasing tag off/]
quote:It is called not posting on it! the fact you posted suggests you really want to keep it alive.
Originally posted by Ronist:
22 pages Jeez. Maybe we should try driving a wooden stake through the heart of this thread. There must be someway to kill it.
quote:because you posted on it!
Originally posted by Lurker McLurker™:
Why the fuck is this thread still going?
computerly weirdness seems to have made my "edit" go all funny.
quote:I won't answer any questions about "Bread" and "Wine"
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
actually, 103, does your church do the wine before or after the bread - wouldn't the (now famous and increasingly ubiquitous) woman in question have been en route from bread to wine? Usually the bread comes first, doesn't it (unless the servers have got tangled up while serving the musicians which sometimes means Communion for some muzos is occasionally bread only, wine only or wine followed by bread. Keeps it interesting I guess.)
quote:eh?
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:I won't answer any questions about "Bread" and "Wine"
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[QUOTE]
actually, 103, does your church do the wine before or after the bread - wouldn't the (now famous and increasingly ubiquitous) woman in question have been en route from bread to wine? Usually the bread comes first, doesn't it (unless the servers have got tangled up while serving the musicians which sometimes means Communion for some muzos is occasionally bread only, wine only or wine followed by bread. Keeps it interesting I guess.)
-103
I'm confused
quote:hee
Originally posted by Lurker McLurker™:
Hmm, this isn't going to get the thread closed, is it
you just can't get enough of this thread - admit it - you'd be bereft without it
for the distribution of Holy Communion
quote:Congratulations. Now RooK will have his way with this thread, if not Sarky or Erin.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Yeah - this thread is great actually, lets see if we can get it to 30 pages!
-103
Are the hosts betting money on this thread to see how long it will last?
Could I join the bet too?
quote:6 Stations because we're not allowed to rip out those Damn Awful pews and replace them with comfy chairs and we have way too many people attending Sunday Mass!
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
Almost as long as Percington Crescent....!!!
However I don't think 103's church follows the teachings of St.Percy so perhaps best left alone....
I'm still boggling over the need for 6 stations
quote:now we know where the whole storm-trooper approach to the wafers comes from - reduce the congregation - person by person...
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:6 Stations because we're not allowed to rip out those Damn Awful pews and replace them with comfy chairs and we have way too many people attending Sunday Mass!
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
Almost as long as Percington Crescent....!!!
However I don't think 103's church follows the teachings of St.Percy so perhaps best left alone....
I'm still boggling over the need for 6 stations
-103
quote:Wardens are not a good idea, trust me they would not work and they make the service look a little too inpersonal.
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
103,I was having a holiday in Bristol this weekend and I went to St.Mary Redcliffe for the Eucharist.It's a big church and it was easily 2/3rds full if not more.They didn't seem to have any problem there - it was distributed kneeling at the high altar.
If there's a problem you'd need to get the wardens to let one line of pews at a time. It's known as crowd control!!!
They could then receive at the communion rail,and you could have one priest and two eucharistic ministers
quote:Open mouths please......
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
get someone to stand at the front with a couple of table-tennis bats
quote:Oh, my, the thread starts morphing once again ... into a party thread!
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I've got the tonic!
quote:But (he sputters), I thought you had a Porta-Altar at the crossing! Set up rails there, like this.
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Wardens are not a good idea, trust me they would not work and they make the service look a little too inpersonal.
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
103,I was having a holiday in Bristol this weekend and I went to St.Mary Redcliffe for the Eucharist.It's a big church and it was easily 2/3rds full if not more.They didn't seem to have any problem there - it was distributed kneeling at the high altar.
If there's a problem you'd need to get the wardens to let one line of pews at a time. It's known as crowd control!!!
They could then receive at the communion rail,and you could have one priest and two eucharistic ministers
And we're trying to move AWAY from old fashioned things like distribution kneeling at the high altar. The only good use for communion rails are to help disabled and elderly people up steps!
6 Eucharist Stations are fine and that is what we do and will do, we're now refining it so that there is no chaos involved as people recieve in exactly the same way.
Kneeling also isn't good because we then wouldn't comply with the Disabled Discriminations Act, the altar rail is at the top of 7 steps around the high altar and there is no ramp.
-103
quote:*ahem*
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:Wardens are not a good idea, trust me they would not work and they make the service look a little too inpersonal.
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
103,I was having a holiday in Bristol this weekend and I went to St.Mary Redcliffe for the Eucharist.It's a big church and it was easily 2/3rds full if not more.They didn't seem to have any problem there - it was distributed kneeling at the high altar.
If there's a problem you'd need to get the wardens to let one line of pews at a time. It's known as crowd control!!!
They could then receive at the communion rail,and you could have one priest and two eucharistic ministers
And we're trying to move AWAY from old fashioned things like distribution kneeling at the high altar. The only good use for communion rails are to help disabled and elderly people up steps!
Kneeling also isn't good because we then wouldn't comply with the Disabled Discriminations Act, the altar rail is at the top of 7 steps around the high altar and there is no ramp.
