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indicating that he was far enough out of earchot, that his cries did not disturb them.

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Well, maybe, or it could just be that they'd just had a very good meal with plenty of wine And emotional overload, of course.

Lewis is right, they DID do everything out loud back then, even reading to one's self. It was quite a shock to one man to discover that Augustine could read silently. It *was* Augustine, wasn't it?

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[ 11. April 2004, 21:48: Message edited by: Scot ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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It was quite a shock to one man to discover that Augustine could read silently. It *was* Augustine, wasn't it?

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Originally posted by rewboss:
How much does all of this really matter?

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Maybe the Gospel writers made it up.

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Balaam suggested:
Another possibility: The young man wearing the linen cloth (Mark 14:51-52, often believed to be John Mark, the writer of the gospel) heard what he said.

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Moo also suggested:
Lewis said that in those days no one did anything silently. Since Jesus was very agitated, he probably spoke more loudly than usual.

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:

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Maybe the Gospel writers made it up.

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That's, I guess my fear in it, and why it's suddenly become a big deal to me. I couldn't think of any way they knew, which left me with the suggestion that they made it up. So, if they made that up, then how much else is made up?

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You sound as though you are dismissing out of hand the idea of divine revelation. Is this really such an impossible concept?

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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That's, I guess my fear in it, and why it's suddenly become a big deal to me. I couldn't think of any way they knew . . . .It was getting quite a big niggle to me.

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I hope the past tense means that the niggle is somewhat resolved?

It would freak me out too if I thought somebody was putting words in his mouth. Like pulling the rug out from under your feet.

But then, so much of what he says is SO unlikely, and so inconvenient to the self-interests of the disciples, the early church, etc. I think we've got a very reliable record, or otherwise tons of things would be omitted (like in other historical documents of the time, where the bias has obviously been laid on with a trowel). As a very minor textual scholar, I dearly love the Gospels for their reliability.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:

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Originally posted by rewboss:
How much does all of this really matter?

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If it don't matter to you, then there's an easy answer: Don't read the thread.

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Originally posted by rewboss:

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:

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Originally posted by rewboss:
How much does all of this really matter?

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If it don't matter to you, then there's an easy answer: Don't read the thread.

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It was actually a serious question. I was asking how much it mattered.

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1. When Jesus woke them up, he said "Look, I've been praying that God would take all this away if He could. However, I'll do His will, not my own. And you're a bunch of lazy muppets, sleeping when I need you." However, the way the story is recorded leads me to think that it didn't happen like this.
   So
2. Post Resurrection, Jesus had told them what He had prayed. But surely, by then it was a moot point, and not terribly useful for Him to have said "Oh, by the way, you remember when you were sleeping, just before I got arrested? Well, I prayed such-and-such - see the deep significance of it?" Again, that doesn't seem quite right.
   So I was left with a final conclusion of
3. The gospel writers made it up, because they wanted to show that Jesus didn't want to die, but He was so terribly terribly obedient, and so He did what God asked of Him.

And if they made that up, then presumably the veracity of anything else Jesus said for which there are few/no witnesses should be doubted. It suddenly seemed rather important to me.

But now I have some plausible explanations for it, it's a much smaller niggle, and doesn't immediately repudiate the entire gospel

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So I was left with either:

1. When Jesus woke them up, he said "Look, I've been praying that God would take all this away if He could. However, I'll do His will, not my own. And you're a bunch of lazy muppets, sleeping when I need you." However, the way the story is recorded leads me to think that it didn't happen like this.
   So
2. Post Resurrection, Jesus had told them what He had prayed. But surely, by then it was a moot point, and not terribly useful for Him to have said "Oh, by the way, you remember when you were sleeping, just before I got arrested? Well, I prayed such-and-such - see the deep significance of it?" Again, that doesn't seem quite right.
   So I was left with a final conclusion of
3. The gospel writers made it up, because they wanted to show that Jesus didn't want to die, but He was so terribly terribly obedient, and so He did what God asked of Him.

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Originally posted by daisymay*:
The bits that are written certainly don't last for several hours, even if we read them out loud - so I think that they weren't out of earshot, but heard some of what Jesus said to God and remembered enough of it (and maybe discussed it) to get it written down.

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Originally posted by kiwigoldfish:
The odd thing is, if the disciples did hear what Jesus was saying, how could they then fall asleep? If he really was so obviously troubled, and sweating blood and being cuddled by angels - what kind of friends were they to just fall asleep?

Whatever He had told them about His feelings and prayers, I don't think that it was clear to them exactly what was happening.

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3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said, "What [is that] to us? You see [to it!"] 5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27

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12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, "Tell them, 'His disciples came at night and stole Him [away] while we slept.' 14 "And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will appease him and make you secure." 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day. Matthew 28

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It was quite a shock to one man to discover that Augustine could read silently. It *was* Augustine, wasn't it?

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Don't forget one more possibility:
4. What transpired was divinely revealed to the gospel writers.

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1. An angel appearing and saying "Ok Mark, here's the gen on what happened in the garden. Y'know, when Jesus went off by himself, and the disciples all fell asleep?"
   or
2. Mark having a dream about Jesus in the garden, praying His prayer, and waking up thinking "Right. So that's what happened then. Thank-you Lord for telling me."

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:
I've been trying to avoid answering you Freddy, because I don't want to give you heart failure, and it obviously seems very important to you that it was divine revelation.
But... I don't buy it. Maybe I'm just too rational, or whatever, but the idea of either:

1. An angel appearing and saying "Ok Mark, here's the gen on what happened in the garden. Y'know, when Jesus went off by himself, and the disciples all fell asleep?"
   or
2. Mark having a dream about Jesus in the garden, praying His prayer, and waking up thinking "Right. So that's what happened then. Thank-you Lord for telling me."

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Originally posted by Moo:
Some people get tired and fall asleep in response to a very bad situation they don't know how to handle. Remember, Jesus told them to stay awake and watch. If he had told them to do something strenuous, that would have been much easier. Watching someone you love in extreme agony is excruciating. Sleep is an escape.

Moo

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Did the chief priests and elders tell this story on themselves? Did Nicodemus report it?

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Originally posted by daynz:
About the heard bits of it in between sleeping theory...surely if Jesus was loud enough, and distraught enough for you to hear bits of his loud and distraughtness while you were snoozing you would wake up enough to go and find out what was going on??

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Now, to the point. That was kind of the thrust of my first post on this thread, but as has been pointed out people will face stressful situations by sleeping (shut down the system rather than face a reality you can't change.) And I was dubious until I saw the passage in Luke saying that they were sleeping because of sorrow. Which kind of blew every sermon I had heard on the passage out of the water because they were all saying "lazy disciples ... ignorant bunch ... insensitive oafs" kind of thing, whereas Luke states that they knew enough of what was going on, but lacked the fortitude to face reality.

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