Thread: Eccles: Daily offices Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Cheesy* (# 3330) on :
 
We've just started using the celtic daily prayer liturgy (from the Northumbria Community) as an effort to be more disciplined during lent (and possibly beyond).

I was wondering what offices other liturgically minded shipmates use, why and how.

Thanks

C

[ 14. May 2007, 14:22: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
 

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Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 
I tend to flip between Morning and Evening in the BCP and using The Little Book of Hours from the Community of Jesus.
 

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Posted by Fermat (# 4894) on :
 
I have used the celtic office when praying the offices alone, but I eventually got a little fed up with the lectionary, which, IIRC, had little continuity in itself, being roughly structured around monthly subjects. So I used the Celebrating Common Prayer lectionary instead, and also used a reflection from a Taize book, which had one for each day of the year. I found this a helpful structure for individual prayer.

Now I say the office with others, we either use the Common Worship Daily prayers, or the Book of Common Prayer. Both offer a day-to-day familiar structure which is supplemented by a weekday lectionary.
 

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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
I used to use a Benedictine prayer book [Glenstal Book of Prayer] that was selling quite well when I lived in Dublin.

I also used the Anglican Australian Prayer Book offices.

Nowadays I use the Orthodox Morning and Evening prayers [when I remember ] and use the daily readings from the Lectionary.


I find it a great help; it does provide some form of structure for my wildly up-and-down prayer life.
 

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Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
I usually use the Daily Office from the American BCP. I try to do MP and EP every day (I really do try!), and on REALLY good days I do Noonday Prayer and Compline as well.

I also use -- sometimes as an extra discipline, sometimes just for a change -- the offices from my grandfather's Anglo-Catholic Prayer Book. There's some very nice stuff in there.
 

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Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
I use Celebrating Common Prayer: a book by David Stancliffe (in a personal capacity, but he is chair of the CofE Commision for Liturgical Reform) and Br. Tristam, SSF.

This book is very good at enhancing the rhythms of the day, week and year. The rather minimal lectionary is starting to get to me though, so I may have to find some more substantial readings to add to it.
 

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Posted by cocktailgirl (# 8684) on :
 
Like ACOL-ite, I use Celebrating Common Prayer, but with the CW lectionary. I use Common Worship for compline, because it's not variable like CCP and so I can pretty much say it without the book.
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
I tried CCP for a while, but had some difficulties. I found myself at home with The Anglican Breviary for a while, but I have now started to find my way around The Sarum Psalter, which contains everything, including the plainsong for the hymns and antiphons.

It is difficult initially, but I'm finding my way through it and settling into a comfortable routine.
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
I use the Roman Breviary. It only gets beyond a joke when the Office of Readings goes into the lengthy (and it seems ever more lengthy with each passing year) serialisation of St Augustine's meditation on the Shepherds.

I also try to read a Chapter of the Rule of our Holy Father St Benedict each day.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 
Items I have and use, with varying degrees of frequency:

Book of Common Prayer (bookmarked at Compline, which I usually read)

Seasonally-appropriate copy of "The Divine Hours" - contains morning and noonday prayer, vespers, and compline, complete with readings. Somewhat bulky, so inappropriate for travel.

If the BCP isn't findable and my copy of "Shorter Christian Prayer" is, I read Night Prayer in the latter. It also has hymn texts printed in tiny text in the back, which I find useful and more portable than my hymnal.

I recently obtained a set of the Daily Office books for ECUSA. These contain the offices, the psalter (natch), and all the Scripture readings for the day. I'm pretty excited about this, as even the prospect of flipping around in my Bible for OT/Psalm/Epistle/Gospel has put me off full MP/EP.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
CCP again, and I play fast and loose with the lectionary.

The latest Pocket Version requires less page flicking although for some reason I seem to prefer the wording in the older larger one.
 

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Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
...I recently obtained a set of the Daily Office books for ECUSA. These contain the offices, the psalter (natch), and all the Scripture readings for the day. I'm pretty excited about this, as even the prospect of flipping around in my Bible for OT/Psalm/Epistle/Gospel has put me off full MP/EP.

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The big green quartet, or the cute little black ones? (There's also a big one with BOTH years in it, but it's inappropriate for travel.) I find that the CLB book for the year fits nicely into a ziplock bag for toting purposes, and it makes it SO much easier to stay with it.

Rossweisse // needing all the help I can get
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I generally use "Morning and Evening Prayer", which is the shorter Roman Breviary, with CW lectionary. However, over Christmas, I used Common Worship: Daily Prayer, which was fine, but lacked a certain something.

I used CCP in Advent, but didn't really find it terribly inspiring (and the Psalter doesn't have antiphons! ).

I use the BCP when I go to Cathedral Evensong, or at Matins in Chapel on a cycle of BCP/CW/Methodist Worship Book, or when I fancy it really.

Thurible
 

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Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
When I remember (and it's been a good few weeks since I did ) I use the Pocket Version of CCP.

Thing is, though, there doesn't seem to be a proper Lectionary in it - just some very short verses...
 

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Posted by Pendragon (# 8759) on :
 
CCP morning prayer (weekdays) and BCP evening prayer (every day of Lent) though I must confess that I don't do the readings and the psalter.
 

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Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :
 
I use Common Worship: Daily Prayer but I'm not liturgically-minded and I'm assuming that if one is, one is supposed to dislike it. I've been using the "test mode" paperback edition for about two years and I like it a lot. It's also available online.
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
For those of you who use Common Worship: Daily Prayer, here is a fantastic resource:

http://www.davegoode.net/
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rossweisse:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
...I recently obtained a set of the Daily Office books for ECUSA. These contain the offices, the psalter (natch), and all the Scripture readings for the day. I'm pretty excited about this, as even the prospect of flipping around in my Bible for OT/Psalm/Epistle/Gospel has put me off full MP/EP.

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The big green quartet, or the cute little black ones? (There's also a big one with BOTH years in it, but it's inappropriate for travel.) I find that the CLB book for the year fits nicely into a ziplock bag for toting purposes, and it makes it SO much easier to stay with it.

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Your acronymage made me do a doubletake, as those are my initials. Whichever set I got would be the CLB books .

The store made the choice extra-easy for me (post-bifocals, anyway ) by only having two volumes of the four-volume green set available. And it wasn't even for this year!

Actually the original "black book" I got was missing sixty pages of the psalter. I'm glad that's where the problem was; with fifteen hundred plus pages, it may have taken me a while to discover other omissions. They were extremely cheerful about exchanging it for me.

Thanks mucho for the ziploc baggie tip; my BCP got a tiny bit water-damaged over Christmas and that will help prevent other problems when I'm transporting it in my big bag.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Tractor Girl (# 8863) on :
 
I go for the Celtic ones, having done a year of the readings without the office included when I recently saw the big book with them all in I invested. So now also use the office for prayer when I have time to do it properly.
 

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Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

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Amazing Grace claims:
I recently obtained a set of the Daily Office books for ECUSA. These contain the offices, the psalter (natch), and all the Scripture readings for the day. I'm pretty excited about this, as even the prospect of flipping around in my Bible for OT/Psalm/Epistle/Gospel has put me off full MP/EP.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Rosseweise, I know I'm a whiner and not easily satisfied, but these CLB books had only three of the four lessons necessary to read both Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer. Has this changed, along with the price increase to 116 dollars. [They were 95 clams last time I checked.]

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I use the Daily Office Book (two cute bonded-leather volumes with too many typos) most often, to pray the office exactly the way it's done twice daily in my parish church (Ascension, Chicago): in the evening, the first lesson is the Gospel in Year 1 and the Epistle (or middle lesson) in Year 2. Second lesson is from Readings for the Daily Office From the Early Church. Canticles are always Mag and Nunc at EP. Not 100% rubrical (I'd have to look it up), but that's how we do it as a parish.

I have the Monastic Diurnal Revised and the Anglican Breviary and sometimes fancy getting through the entire office from one of those for a day. But the discipline I can actually keep is the BCP with our parish's enhancements (the Angelus at the end as well).
 

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Posted by Jael (# 99) on :
 
I use CCP with the CW lectionary. Or I use CW morning prayer from the Oremus website. What I'd really like is to be able to download the weeks morning office on to my MP3 player and listen to it while I travel to work. Anyone know if that's available? The Cof E ought to get it organised from the website, but "like a mighty tortoise moves the Church of God"....
Help anyone?

JAEL
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Now for those who ain't be around for long enough I will shock people.

I have used at some stage regulary i.e. not just for a holiday:

Baillie, J A Diary of Private Prayer
Newell, J.P.,Each Day and Each Night
The Northumbria Community Office (fell to pieces)
Susan Sayers A lifetime of Moments
Society of Saint Francis Celebrating Common Prayer both full and pocket
The Iona community worship book about two incarnations ago (not recommended)

At present I am uncertain what my pattern will be, but have been following a form I prepared myself.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :
 
From choice, I tend to use the 1662 Prayer Book offices modified by some of the 'additions and deviatons' contained un the Prayer Book as proposed in 1928. It's what I'm comfortable with and always seem to end up going back to. Occasionally, for the sake of variety, I use the Roman Catholic Morning and Evening Prayer which is very good because everthing you need is available in one slim black volume! For much the same reason I have occasionally used parts of the 'Hours of Prayer' - a traditional Anglican translation of the Sarum Offices. My local priest in charge and the team rector in a local market town both like CCP but I don't get on with it too well. For me it has all the disadvantages of the Roman Office and none of the advantages.

Dumb Acolyte wrote:

quote:

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Amazing Grace, is this really true?! Every couple of years or so I torture myself looking for a single volume that contains all four readings, two for MP and two for EP, for either the full year or a portion of it. Every couple of years, frustrated, I wonder if I am the only person who would buy such a book.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:

quote:

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Amazing Grace claims:
I recently obtained a set of the Daily Office books for ECUSA. These contain the offices, the psalter (natch), and all the Scripture readings for the day. I'm pretty excited about this, as even the prospect of flipping around in my Bible for OT/Psalm/Epistle/Gospel has put me off full MP/EP.

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Amazing Grace, is this really true?! Every couple of years or so I torture myself looking for a single volume that contains all four readings, two for MP and two for EP, for either the full year or a portion of it. Every couple of years, frustrated, I wonder if I am the only person who would buy such a book.

Is there now such a thing? Is it suitable for travel?

I would settle for a light-weight pocket-size combination 1979 BCP & Bible with Aprocrypha.

Oh, by the way, what are the CLB books?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:

Option 3: Complete US BCP bound with complete NRSV
This option is too large for travel, around the city or for longer trips. But, it is similar to the option I current use: A clothbound 4x6 inch BCP and a similarly-sized leatherette Anglicised NRSV with Apocrypha. It meets all the criteria except for weight. Perhaps I could shave off a couple of grams by buying an expensive NRSV printed on India paper.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Dear Bede's American Successor, thanks very much for the links. I'm much obliged. Lamentably, they seem to be what I come up with in my periodic search. The defects are:

Option 1: Daily Office Book (2 volumes) with readings
To do two lessons at MP and two lessons at EP one has to drag around both volumes. Too big and why bother in the light of Option 3.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Same question applies to the Howard Galley Prayer Book Office.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Rosseweise, I know I'm a whiner and not easily satisfied, but these CLB books had only three of the four lessons necessary to read both Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer. Has this changed, along with the price increase to 116 dollars. [They were 95 clams last time I checked.]

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

To do two lessons at MP and two lessons at EP one has to drag around both volumes. Too big and why bother in the light of Option 3.

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The lectionary provides three lessons for any given day (plus Psalms). If you want two lessons in the morning and in the evening, the directions call for taking a lesson for the same day from the opposite year.

You're supposed to take Howard Galley's advice and read just one lesson at Evening Prayer, followed by Magnificat, and save Nunc dimittis for Compline.

[Fixed code - T]

[ 18. February 2005, 14:41: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

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Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
You're supposed to take Howard Galley's advice and read just one lesson at Evening Prayer, followed by Magnificat, and save Nunc dimittis for Compline.

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Howard Galley is also responsible for Eucharistic Prayer C in Rite II. While I don't dislike it as much as others do around here (and, if sung all the way through, I actually like it), I still think that Prayer C is enough to prove Galley is not infallible. From the primal elements...

All Galley did was acknowledge the origin of Daily Evening Prayer in the BCP. That is, it was a combination of Vespers (Magnificat) and Compline (Nunc). I would suggest that those who wish to follow Galley's advice take a look at the Order of Evening Worship in the US BCP, following the rubrics to expand it to a full office.
 

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Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :
 
Dumb Acolyte. I've heard of the 'English Office Book' and would love to own a copy but I gather it's as rare as hen's teeth. However I do have a copy of the proposed 1928 Prayer Book with the lessons for Mattins and Evensong (1922 lectionary) bound in with it. It's not the sort of book you can carry around easily though - it's too bulky to be considered really portable. The examples of private enterprise I had in mind were the Sarum 'Hours of Prayer', the Priests book of Private Devotion and its offspring 'Prime and Hours' as well as the 'Monastic Diurnal.' CCP also really comes under the umbrella of private enterprise as it's not synodically authorised.
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
A few pictures of my office book:

Front Cover

Title Page (a little blurred)

and again

The Psalter

David anointed

The office of Prime

I have a love for all things Sarum, and so being able to use this translation works very well for me. The volume itself dates from 1852 and holding it alone reminds me of the eternal conversation that is the Divine Office.

V/ O Lord, open + thou our lips
B/ and our mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

[ 18. February 2005, 23:32: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]
 

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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
WOW BtF! A beautiful book.
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 


I saw a copy of this advertised on abe books, but by the time I ordered it, it had already been sold. It was only when I mentioned this on the ship some months later, that a kind shipmate PMd me and linked me to a copy on auction on ebay. I was outbid at the last minuite and was gutted that I had missed it second time round.

However, withint two hours, I received an e-mail from the seller, letting me know that he, in fact, had a second copy, which is the one you see photographed.

I am so pleased with it and, at first, I had it wrapped in tissue paper and kept it put safely away, but a friend pointed out that Joseph Masters put a lot of effort into the translation and into making it the beautiful thing that it is, to aid people's prayer, and that there was no point treating it as a museum piece, and so I made the decision to use it for the purpose for which it was intended (it is only marginally more difficult to navigate then 'The Anglican Breviary, which I used previously), and if it falls apart in twenty years' time as a result, then so be it - I will have no regrets.
 

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Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :
 
Back-to-Front. It looks like a truly magnificent book and I wouldn't mind acquiring one for my liturgical library. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled!
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
It really is, Adrian.

The person who outbid me actually got in touch with me, explaining that he needed it for public use. He is a Russian Orthodox priest of the Western Rite, living and working in Australia. His community uses the Sarum Rite for the Mass (and I believe that the do call it 'Mass') and now the Offices as well. The Patriarch has blessed the Sarum Use for use in Russian Orthodoxy (with a few amendments). I am so glad that it is still alive and well in the Church, and is not a 'dead' rite, as some Romanisers in the CofE would have us believe.

I also have a copy of the Sarum Missal in two volumes, but it is a print-to-order copy of the 1912/1913 reprint of the 1865 book - so some wonderful texts, and a wealth of information about where a significant portion of the Prayer Book comes from, but nothing particularly glorious to behold.

I think I'll still keep the Anglican Breviary though, as it's more compact for travel.
 

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Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Amazing Grace, I believe this is one place where those who whine about the lectionary have got it exactly right. While the lectionaries may be sensitive to put right themes, authorship, and errors in redaction, one follows the two-year '79 BCP and never gets Numbers chapter one or Nehemiah chapter three. I'll grant that hearing that Shelumiel was the son of Zerushaddai or that Shallum repaired the Fountain Gate doesn't bolster the modern idea of worship. But, this smoothing down the rough edges of a Daily Office lectionary demonstrates a failure to understand what sort of person is actually grinding through it day by day--we can manage. The occasional reader of morning prayer would do well to leave the church wondering 'what was that all about?' or pausing to consider that Ono is more than Yoko's surname.

Adrian1, I first started looking for The English Office several years ago, I saw it once on offer, but not knowing how rare it was, I failed to bid. I would pay handsomely for it. I sometimes wonder that, with the interest the reprinted Anglican Breviary generated, whether a reprinted English Office might not do at least as well. Thanks for the examples of private enterprise. I can just barely hold to the discipline of Morning and Evening Prayer; extending the number of Hours beyond two (to, say, three, as Bede and Galley urge) is really too much for me.

Back-to-Front, that is a beautiful book. Use it in good health. Just remember the lesson your Mother taught you: wash your hands first, turn the pages gently, one at a time, and turn a page only with your dominant hand by the upper corners. It should outlast you.

OBTW, BtF, which Patriarch?
 

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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
[tangent]

quote:

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Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
He is a Russian Orthodox priest of the Western Rite, living and working in Australia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
OBTW, BtF, which Patriarch?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Amazing Grace, I believe this is one place where those who whine about the lectionary have got it exactly right. While the lectionaries may be sensitive to put right themes, authorship, and errors in redaction, one follows the two-year '79 BCP and never gets Numbers chapter one or Nehemiah chapter three. I'll grant that hearing that Shelumiel was the son of Zerushaddai or that Shallum repaired the Fountain Gate doesn't bolster the modern idea of worship. But, this smoothing down the rough edges of a Daily Office lectionary demonstrates a failure to understand what sort of person is actually grinding through it day by day--we can manage. The occasional reader of morning prayer would do well to leave the church wondering 'what was that all about?' or pausing to consider that Ono is more than Yoko's surname.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I have just obtained a Sarum Missal and I am considering using it for private prayer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cyclotherapist:
I take your point about the convenience of the full-on breviary. However, I think I read somewhere that the problem of having to juggle books may be solved when the revision of this preliminary version comes out. Did anyone else see that and/or know when it might happen?

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I think it's supposed to be this year. I'm not sure how they'll solve the juggling problem, unless the lectionary for daily prayer will somehow be incorporated, eliminating one book from the juggle.
 

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Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :
 
Dear Back-to-Front

It is a print to order copy from the USA. I would love an original!
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Mine, too, is a print-to-order copy of the 1912/1913 reprint.

Unfortunately, this reprint seemingly contained an error, which I suppose only somebody who has access to a copy of the original edition from some 50 years earlier would be able to clarify:

It gives the reference for the Epistle for the Translation of S. Osmund (July 16th) as 'Ecclus. 1. 4, 1, 5-12, 15, 23'.

This does not seem to make much sense to me or anybody else who has looked at it for me and I have been unable to make contact with anybody who has the 1865(?) edition, who would be able to compare.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
I'm much impressed by everybody's dedication. To be honest, I don't even know how to do the Liturgy of the Hours properly... Any book or web tips on that?

If you click here and then on "Display and booklet formats for the entire day", you can download (RC) PDFs for every day. They look complete to me (30+ pages each), but then I wouldn't really know.
 

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Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Amazing Grace, thanks for the bite. Sorry for the delay in responding.

I am a whiner. I don't believe any lectionary actual walks one through the entire Bible. And, after all, the Orthodox don't use Revelation liturgically.

The 1928 Daily Lectionary seems not to give us Zerushaddai or Shallum of the Fountain Gate, nor Ono, and it omits the apocrypha.

As for the Psalms, unless, as complained about on a lost MW thread, one uses the New Zealand Prayer Book, one can use the implicit lectionary printed in the text of the Psalms (e.g., Twenty-seventh Day: Morning Prayer), which divides the book into 60 pericopes. I can't say whether either the 1979 or the 1928 lectionary completely covers the Psalms.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 
Hmmmm. Now I might very well need to compare the '79 BCP Psalter to one of my Bibles and see what it leaves out, if anything. I doubt it does.

I really am enjoying the daily office book for my daily dose of Scripture (and copy of the daily offices) and will be "time sharing" the other volume with another Shipmate.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Apart from church services, does anybody actually say the office with anyone else, in more than the spiritual sense?
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Hmmmm. Now I might very well need to compare the '79 BCP Psalter to one of my Bibles and see what it leaves out, if anything. I doubt it does.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Apart from church services, does anybody actually say the office with anyone else, in more than the spiritual sense?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Hmmmm. Now I might very well need to compare the '79 BCP Psalter to one of my Bibles and see what it leaves out, if anything. I doubt it does.

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The 1979 BCP psalter doesn't leave anything out (including dashing babies and wiping enemies out of the book of the living, dogs tongues in the blood of the wicked, etc.).

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Yes, well, before I had a clue about the Daily Office , I had made a practice of reading the Psalter as a devotion according the "thirty days" division (both "morning" and "evening" parts usually at once). I remember such as you mention above (and days of Psalm 119), which made me doubt they'd left anything out.

Now the psalm bits we get in the Sunday lectionary seem quite edited to me.

quote:

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To make sure you're covering it, if you're using the assignments in the lectionary, you need to leave in all the bracketed verses. If a whole psalm is bracketed and an alternative provided, do the bracketed psalm instead of the alternative.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
with a generous pause at the asterisk.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Seeker963:

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
with a generous pause at the asterisk.

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The practice of the "generous pause after the asterisk" drives me crazy. (No direct offence intended, SK)

My understanding is that the asterisk is meant to be for the purposes of one person/group speaking the first half of the verse and a second person/group speaking the second. In many cases a "generous pause" is clearly wrong from the point of view of grammar and understanding.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
Drives me crazy when it's


the middle of a sentence

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:


We also say Evening Prayer (USA 1979 BCP) or Compline together sometimes. I love it except when he's officiant and chooses to say about 143 collects.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
Drives me crazy when it's


the middle of a sentence

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quote:

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Thanks for the tip, although I might go back to the thirty-day cycle (it is quite the range of human experience, is it not?) when I get organized enough to read the psalm as well as the OT/Epistle/Gospel.

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It's a sentiment I've expressed before but I think by far the best way to get to know the Psalter well is to read the Psalms through as the Prayer Book appoints them for each day of the month. If a better method exists I've yet to find it.


 

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Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Seeker963, this pausing at the asterisk, it is somewhat odd upon first hearing. It was odder still for me that the beginning of the next verse practically steps on the heels of the preceeding verse. Give it time. Don't resolve to hate it. It is a marvelous, formal way of yoking our time to the holy and of subordinating our temporal needs and expectations. Treat it as another queer practice of the the church that needs to be lived into to for it to be understood.

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OK. May I say to Scott Knitter via this post, and to you, that no-one has ever explained the reason behind this practice to me before; understanding the history and the reason is always helpful.

I guess, for me personally, it distracts me from concentrating on the meaning of what I'm reading. But I'll resolve not to resolve to hate it.
 

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Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
I thought the asterisk was so you'd know when to switch from the first part of the chant tune to the second part.

Long pauses at the asterisk are Seriously Annoying, in my experience.
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
I was on retreat at the end of last week, and the psalms in the convent chapel were read with a longish pause at the asterisk. I've been there several times now, and every time I manage to be the idiot who forgets and charges straight into the second half of the verse. But I find that once I remember and get used to it again I like the rhythm it gives the reading, and especially the way it makes me aware of the structure of each verse, with its parallel ideas.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Margaret:
I was on retreat at the end of last week, and the psalms in the convent chapel were read with a longish pause at the asterisk. I've been there several times now, and every time I manage to be the idiot who forgets and charges straight into the second half of the verse. But I find that once I remember and get used to it again I like the rhythm it gives the reading, and especially the way it makes me aware of the structure of each verse, with its parallel ideas.

---

The pause works especially well when the chant is accompanied by ever-so-light organ: at the asterisk, the organ moves through two or three chords to get us to the second half of the verse. It becomes very natural and prayerful and unrushed. And we all stay on pitch.
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
IIRC, the length of the pause at the asterisk is that of the slowly-and-silently-said Latin words, "Ave Maria". I suppose the original intent of saying "Ave Maria" at the pause was to provide a few seconds for meditation as one read each half of the psalm verses.

It's true, it would give the precentrix or organist a chance to correct the pitch or the tone if necessary. In really badly trained monastic choirs, it is possible for the decani to lose even the tone when the cantori are off pitch.
 

---

Posted by Fermat (# 4894) on :
 
In Common Worship Daily Prayer, an attractive orange diamond replaces the asterisk. Does that make it any more palatable??

I like the pause, and consequently am very embarrassed on the few occasions where I blunder straight on into the next line
 

---

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :
 
Some people advise the taking of a pause at the asterisk or colon if the Psalms and Canticles are said. Francis Wheeler in his 'Manual of Pastoral Theology' recommended a pause long enough to utter the words, 'Our Father.' Personally, taking a pause mid way through each verse is a practice I've got mixed feelings about. Whilst able to recognise the value of a reflective pause, I have attended weekday services in well known cathedral churches where the pause has been too long. This has disrupted the flow of the services for me and, I feel, needlessly slowed them down. That's only my experience though.
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
I’ve recently started using Celebrating Common Prayer (the little “pocket” edition).

I suspect that, as others have commented, I will find the range of readings rather limited in time, but at the moment I’m very happy with it (especially Night Prayer). I don’t use any of the additional material (not that there’s much of it), largely because I’m very new to the offices and don’t know my way around them (looking at the Ordo that Thurible linked to from another thread I’m glad I don’t have the “full” version, I’d never know where I was).
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
I’ve remembered the question I was going to include in my previous post.

In CCP there are various points marked with a cross. I assume that this is an indication that at this point one may/should say, “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (and probably cross oneself, if one is that way inclined).

This indication appears at the start of the Gospel Canticle, which makes sense in that this is from the Gospel and is can therefore be seen as especially significant. It does not appear at the start of the Bible reading, however, even where this is from the Gospels. I assume that this is to keep greater uniformity in the way the readings are said – does this sound right?

What I find more surprising is that this indication also appears at the start of Night Prayer, but not Morning Prayer or Evening Prayer. I would have thought it would appear at the start of all the offices, or none.

I appreciate that this is of minor significance, but as a newcomer to the business of office reading I wondered if anyone could give a reason for only saying these words at the start of Night Prayer and not the other offices, other than the whim of the author.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Okay, I've never really had a look at CCP, but let's see if we can work this out...

Traditionally, crossing may denote "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" but you don't have to say the words whenever you do. I shouldn't think that CCP intends you to do so now.

The Canticles traditionally served as the high-point and focus of the Office, even if they were not the only portion taken from the Gospels (at Festal or Solemn services, candles are lit and altars incensed at this juncture). Those of the Higher persuasion retain various bits of ritual here, including crossing oneself at the start of the Canticle.

As to why a cross is indicated at the start of NP, but not MP or EP, I'm slightly baffled... no doubt someone more knowledgable than I will be along shortly


I think that the traditional mode would have been to cross your lips at "Oh Lord, open thou our lips" and make a bigger cross at "Oh Lord, make speed to save us" (I've certainly seen that done, anyway...)

How does the order for compline begin? If it is like the others, I can't see any reason for a cross being inserted here and not in the others. Although truth to tell I'm not sure I see the sense in having them at all - those who want to cross themselves will do so regardless of the marks, those who don't, won't (is my cynicism shewing again???)

Hope this vague ramble is of some help.
 

---

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
CCP Compline begins (in the version in front of me):

+ The Lord almighty grant us a quiet night and a perfect end.
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Ok ebay has this book that I've been dying to get for two years and its going to be up for 4 more days. I probably wont have much of a chance to win it and catholic guilt plus lent made me a bit selfless...

HOWARD GALLEY's Prayer Book Office is available!It's based on the 1979 ECUSA enriched with anitphons and everything else you can raise it to moments of spikes. It's rare and it's useful. Take my words for this.
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Ok ebay has this book that I've been dying to get for two years and its going to be up for 4 more days. I probably wont have much of a chance to win it and catholic guilt plus lent made me a bit selfless...

HOWARD GALLEY's Prayer Book Office is available!It's based on the 1979 ECUSA enriched with anitphons and everything else you can raise it to moments of spikes. It's rare and it's useful. Take my words for this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Ah Scott. You have a set of the new calmodolese books of hour that I'm coveting. Heh. Was that useful? Meanwhile Launcelot Andrewes Press is going to publish Canon Douglas Wilfred's Monastic Diurnal Noted. But I'm looking for the Dominican Book of Hours that uses the splendid ICEL Liturgical Psalter.

www.andrewespress.com/diurnal.pdf

---

I have the new Camaldolese books? What are they called? And yes, I'm going to get the Winfred Douglas MD Noted as soon as they tell us we can order it. I have one of the originals of the Vespers main volume. And more info on this Dominican book? I can see that I'm going to have to get a new credit card or something to finance these things once I find out where to get them.

Scott, friend of all breviaries
 

---

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :
 
DitzySpike wrote:

quote:

---

Ok ebay has this book that I've been dying to get for two years and its going to be up for 4 more days. I probably wont have much of a chance to win it and catholic guilt plus lent made me a bit selfless...

HOWARD GALLEY's Prayer Book Office is available!It's based on the 1979 ECUSA enriched with anitphons and everything else you can raise it to moments of spikes. It's rare and it's useful. Take my words for this.

---

That sounds interesting.



[ 08. March 2005, 17:57: Message edited by: Adrian1 ]
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
Thanks for the information, dj_ordinaire. As GreyFace has said, in CCP EP/Compline starts

quote:

---

+ The Lord Almighty grant us a quiet night and a perfect end

---

quote:

---

O Lord, open our lips

---

quote:

---

O God, make speed to save us

---

quote:

---

The Sign of the Cross
+ In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Thanks for the information, dj_ordinaire. As GreyFace has said, in CCP EP/Compline starts

quote:

---

+ The Lord Almighty grant us a quiet night and a perfect end

---

It just seems odd that it should appear for NP but not MP or EP.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Thanks for the information, dj_ordinaire. As GreyFace has said, in CCP EP/Compline starts

quote:

---

+ The Lord Almighty grant us a quiet night and a perfect end

---

while MP starts

quote:

---

O Lord, open our lips

---

and EP

quote:

---

O God, make speed to save us

---

I had assumed that the cross symbol for NP was related to the additional prayers listed early n the book, the first of which is

quote:

---

The Sign of the Cross
+ In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

---

but I may well have been wrong. It just seems odd that it should appear for NP but not MP or EP.

---

It helps to think of the Office as one ongoing prayer throughout the day. 'O Lord, open thou our lips' only appears at the beginning of the first office of the day. It wouldn't make sense for it to appear at the others, once it has already been said at the morning office. This is the pattern also followed in both the Anglican Missal and the Sarum Psalter. For some unexplained reason the Prayer Book has it at evensong as well.

I must admit that even when it not part of the office that I am praying, I will append 'O Lord, open thou our lips', if it is the first office that I am praying that day, even if it be Evensong.

One usually crosses oneself during the liturgy at the words 'In the name of the Father...&c.', but one does not say that formula whenever crossing oneself. The symbol '+' is where you cross yourself. It doesn't indicate the saying of anything.

DitzySpike is, as ever, correct. The words 'The Lord God almighty grant us a night of quietude, and perfection at the end of all our days' is a blessing and is traditionally preceded by a request for this blessing, usually from the superior(?). If saying it alone, of course this is not possible, but in a monastic setting, this is what is done, and where the practice originates.
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
This is the pattern also followed in both the Anglican Missal and the Sarum Psalter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Bartolomeo, try the 1979 American Book of Common Prayer (Rite II) with the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. These aren't archaic to your ears, are they?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
But I'm looking for the Dominican Book of Hours that uses the splendid ICEL Liturgical Psalter.

---

Since I'm interestend in all things Dominican, I googled around for this. You have me confused... As described here, the offical Psalter for the Liturgy of Hours is currently the Grail 1963 translation, not the ICEL 1994 version which had its imprimatur removed.

Now, the only post-Vatican II "Dominican" breviary I could find is "Breviary According to the Rite of the Order of Preachers, St. Saviour's, Dublin, 1967", shown here on the timeline and here in more detail (under the subtitle "After the Council - The First Wave - 1963 to 1970"). This apparently has the Grail Psalter and is based on the 1962 Latin text. There's also an abbreviated version without Matins.

Now, the full edition is currently available (used) from Alibris for a mere US$ 374.95. Just a tad too pricey for me. If there's anything else "Dominician" around (or in the works), please let us (or me) know!
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
I am most comfortable with contemporary langauge and would find the archaic forms a distraction. Being in the U.S. and from a low church background, I'm not sure quite where best to turn.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Now, the full edition is currently available (used) from Alibris for a mere US$ 374.95. Just a tad too pricey for me. If there's anything else "Dominician" around (or in the works), please let us (or me) know! [/QB]

---

Found it here http://www.op.org/domcentral/life/chorbook.htm

Wrote to them but yet to get a reply
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
I am most comfortable with contemporary langauge and would find the archaic forms a distraction. Being in the U.S. and from a low church background, I'm not sure quite where best to turn.

---

You might also want to take a look at The Divine Hours Summertime and Wintertime editor Phyllis Tickle.

---

quote:

---

[Come with the dawning of the day
and make yourself known in the breaking of the bread]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Another thing that puzzles me, towards the end of Compline in CCP is the sentence

quote:

---

[Come with the dawning of the day
and make yourself known in the breaking of the bread]

---

Are the square brackets here an indication that this is only said in some circumstances - if one is expecting to partake of Communion the next day, perhaps? If so,what if a group of people are saying this and some will take Communion the next day?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
Did you check out all the links already provided on this thread, Second Mouse? I seem to remember that some of them went to "Today's Office" type of websites.

---

Some, but not all. I'll go back and have another look. Thanks.
 

---

Posted by Second Mouse (# 2793) on :
 
Ok, I've had a thorough look now....

I found this page, which links to the Common Worship Daily Prayer services for today and tomorrow, complete with all the readings and other bits and pieces for the day in full. Very good and helpful.

I guess I'd still be interested if anyone knows somewhere where I could just find and print out the references for the upcoming readings, so I can do it away from the computer more easily.

(All this to avoid paying £3 for the little book with it all in Maybe I'll just go and do that instead)
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Second Mouse:
I guess I'd still be interested if anyone knows somewhere where I could just find and print out the references for the upcoming readings, so I can do it away from the computer more easily.

(All this to avoid paying £3 for the little book with it all in Maybe I'll just go and do that instead)

---

That's one of the annoyances with Common Worship: the need to buy the separate lectionary. It should be available for free in many forms.
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Now, the full edition is currently available (used) from Alibris for a mere US$ 374.95. Just a tad too pricey for me. If there's anything else "Dominician" around (or in the works), please let us (or me) know!

---

Found it here http://www.op.org/domcentral/life/chorbook.htm
Wrote to them but yet to get a reply

---

quote:

---

These books are no longer available. Sorry.

Michael A Winkels, OP
Technology Director

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
At the back of my mind I have the idea that CofE priests are supposed to say Morning and Evening Prayer daily (whether they do or not is another matter), but I can't find a reason for me thinking this. Canon B11 suggest that they should be said in Parish Churches daily (with exceptions), but doesn't say who should say them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
On a slight tangent (but within the thread subject area)....

At the back of my mind I have the idea that CofE priests are supposed to say Morning and Evening Prayer daily (whether they do or not is another matter), but I can't find a reason for me thinking this. Canon B11 suggest that they should be said in Parish Churches daily (with exceptions), but doesn't say who should say them.

Am I right in thinking that there is an "official" expectation that CofE Priests shold say MP and EP daily, and if so where is this stated?

---

Canon C 24 (of priests having a cure of souls)
1. "Every priest having a cure of souls shall provide that, in the absence of reasonable hinderances, Morning and Evening Prayer daily and on appointed days the Litany shall be said in the church, or one of the churches, of which he is the minister."

But perhaps more relevant:

Canon C 26 (of the manner of life of ministers)
1. "Every bishop, priest and deacon is under obligation, not being let by sickness or some other urgent cause, to say the Morning snd Evening prayer, either privately or openly;..."

Hope that helps
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
Thank you, both of you.
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
It's on my eBay watch list, and I would dearly love to have it -- for an insanely low price, which I know is not going to happen -- but I do have a copy, albeit not in new condition. So I probably won't bid, as I don't want to drive up the price. You're welcome. It would be very nice if someone from here were to win the auction and buy this fantastic breviary. I dearly wish they would reprint it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
(What is that final "e o e e a e" cadence at the end of each setting?)

---

The vowels of the the ending of the glory be - 'be forever amen'. To cue the second half of the psalm tone.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Thanks!

Plainchant notation is suddenly beginning to click so that I can sightsing the simple stuff now.
 

---

Posted by Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (# 9228) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cheesy*:
I was wondering what offices other liturgically minded shipmates use, why and how.

---

I originally started with the (Anglican) Australian Prayer Book and Lectionary, many years ago. I followed this liturgy because I had an Anglican background, and because I had the book handy in my house. Also, I had found the Catholic M&EP to be somewhat distant and dry.

After attending a weekend retreat at a Benedictine monastery, where the seven daily hours were kept, I switched over to the (Catholic) Morning and Evening Prayer. The weekend had shown me that the "distance and dryness" was more a matter of approach. The AAPB was trying to be consciously edifying - a bit like a Bible Study tries to be. The M&EP was more contemplative - working below the surface rather than on the surface, so to speak (well, I know what I mean!).

Anyway, I pray MP and EP daily, and during Lent recently also NP.

Until reading this thread, I was the only (lay) person I know who did something crazy like pray the Office daily. It has been comforting to read that I am not alone in the world!

I find that praying the Office, too, can lead into more contemplative forms of prayer (i.e. the "Prayer of Quiet", as I understand it): where you have to put the prayer book aside and just "gaze at God". Anyway, my prayer life has led me to an interest in the Carmelites (T of Avila, T of Lisieux, and others) - a blend of liturgical and contemplative prayer. Also love the Desert Fathers, who were great pray-ers of the psalms.

Funny thing is, I was raised a Presbyterian, became an Anglican, and now attend a small independent lay fellowship with no clergy. I think the liturgical hours in my personal prayer life help to balance the highy non-liturgical and non-conformist group worship at my church. I can only take so much prayer that is subjective and ex tempore. As prayers, the psalms, etc have stood the test of more than 2000 years.
 

---

Posted by Ogre (# 4601) on :
 
As a previous correspondent correctly said, The vowels at the end of a psalm are in order to save valuable printing space and serve as indicators of how to disperse the notes and syllables in the termination of the doxology, when it is sung in Latin. The words are; 'World without End, Amen' or in Latin "S ae c u l a s ae c u l o r u m, a m e n".
 

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Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :
 
I've just found a website for the Annual Lectionary for Common Worship although I have to admit that I've not investigated the information.
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
Another question for those of you who regularly say the offices privately; do you still say the offices privately if you have also (or will also) said/say them corporately? That is, if you are going to Morning Prayer in church do you also say MP on your own? And if you have been to Evensong or Compline do you still say EP and NP?

As someone who generally only attends Eucharistic services this hasn’t been a situation I have come across, but no doubt I will in time. Even after just a couple of months of saying the offices, it would seem odd not to say them on my own, but on the other hand saying one of the offices twice doesn’t seem entirely sensible.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
No. I either say the Office privately or corporately (with the latter always being preferable), but not both.

If I have been to a corporate service, and particularly want to say an Office, then I'll say prime, midday prayer or compline.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I agree with that. I might say Compline before going to bed if I've been to a corporate Evensong earlier, but it's usually an "either/or" case.
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Another question for those of you who regularly say the offices privately; do you still say the offices privately if you have also (or will also) said/say them corporately? That is, if you are going to Morning Prayer in church do you also say MP on your own? And if you have been to Evensong or Compline do you still say EP and NP?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
*bump*
Charlotte

---

Sorry, but what does that mean?
 

---

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
She's just elevating the thread to the top of the list.

She could have written "Cincinnati" or "Baked Potato." But "bump" is sort of onomonopaeic, or descriptive. Or whatever.

She's "bumping" the thread to the top, so that people will read and comment on it again.
 

---

Posted by StJerome (# 9276) on :
 
As many of you will know the new Common Worship Daily Prayer is now avaliable. (Also on amazon at 30 % off!) This seems a little silly that the cofe is giving a 5 % discount to churches (for the 20 book box) but a big discount to amazon (must be huge if they can discount by 30%!). Just my 2p

Also, has anyone seen "The Manual of Anglo Catholic Devotion"? Had a quick read at Church House bookshop and it looks quite good - would feel guilty buying it though (since i'm supposed to be protestant!)
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TubaMirum:
She's just elevating the thread to the top of the list.

She could have written "Cincinnati" or "Baked Potato." But "bump" is sort of onomonopaeic, or descriptive. Or whatever.

---

And is the customary term used on the Ship.

[tangent alert]

When I was a newbie, it puzzled me too. I looked for the UBB "bump" command or menu option until the light, as they say, dawned.

[end tangent]

quote:

---

She's "bumping" the thread to the top, so that people will read and comment on it again.

---

... from the convenience of page 1 of the board .

Charlotte
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by StJerome:
Also, has anyone seen "The Manual of Anglo Catholic Devotion"? Had a quick read at Church House bookshop and it looks quite good - would feel guilty buying it though (since i'm supposed to be protestant!)

---

Yes.

I started off using that at the end of 2000 (I bought it in December of that year, and was surprised to see that the publication date was 2001)

It's good if you're just starting out with the office, as it operates on a very basic 4-week cycle, allowing you to familiarise yourself with the workings of daily prayer, but once you've "graduated", it really isn't adequate. You're better off with something more "hard-core" if you're already an office-prayer. I gave my copy away last month to someone I thought would benefit from oit, as it just sat on my bookshelf as a reference book.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
It's a very useful reference book, though, with some beautiful prayers in.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
You're better off with something more "hard-core" if you're already an office-prayer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'd be very interested in hearing what "hard-core" office-prayers use, as I fancy myself such but am quite undisciplined.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
In the parish, we have Evensong from Common Worship followed by Benediction on Sundays, and Common Worship: Daily Prayer for MP and EP during the week. Midday prayers daily and EP on Saturdays are from the Franciscan book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'd be very interested in hearing what "hard-core" office-prayers use, as I fancy myself such but am quite undisciplined.

---

quote:

---

As many of you will know the new Common Worship Daily Prayer is now avaliable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
Sunday Evensong is BCP not CW.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Posted by St Jerome:

quote:

---

As many of you will know the new Common Worship Daily Prayer is now avaliable.

---

Has anybody got it / used it yet? I notice it's a few dozen pages longer than the draft version - does anyone know what changes have been made?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
Sunday Evensong is BCP not CW.

---

It's Common Worship, p72ff, with numbers 1 and 8 of the permitted variations from p80, and 'Let us bless the Lord, etc' at the end as per the order beginning on p38.

After taking these variations into account, you'd be able to follow the service from the BCP, because the CW Sunday Evensong is almost exactly the same as the BCP Evensong.

Confusing, yes; pedantic, yes; but, as a regular server who stands next to the officiant, I can assure you he uses CW.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
If we're going by the book most used, it would be most accurage to say it's from The Manual of Plainsong!

---

If you think the paltry amount of psalmody we sing at E&B exceeds those overly-long lections from the scriptures, you're not listening properly!

If we're going by the book most used, it would be most accurate to say it's from The Holy Bible.

More psalms and shorter lections, I say!

Dave
 

---

Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
CCP will eat itself in 2008.

(It's official, I did the calculations today.)

By that, I mean this: in CCP the big bit of ordinary time is divided thus

Sundays after Trinity (up to 21 of these)
+ Last Sunday after Trinity
+ All Saint's Sunday
+ 3rd, 2nd, 1st Sunday before Advent.

Meaning it tells you what to do for 26 weeks between Pentecost and Advent. However, in 2008 we get 27 of these. What will the world come to?
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
I can't wait for the St. Colman Prayer Book to be published. It will be a western rite Orthodox breviary, based largely on the Sarum Psalter and other sources. I'm rather excited.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Does anyone know if there are any plans to publish the CW Psalter in a volume by itself?
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
It already is, Father. You can get it set to chant here.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Well blow me down, I never noticed that. Thanks, Thurible. I don't suppose there's a version without any pointing is there?
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Only the draft edition, which is down the page linked to above. However, it's got grotty stuff down the sides of the pages, to show it's a draft, I suppose.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
I've just bought the 1 volume RC Daily Office book called "Christian Prayer". It seems remarkably difficult to use, compared with, say, the 1662 or CCP, but luckily there are cribs available.

I have the St. Joseph Guide and I'm also cross-referencing what I'm thinking I'm meant to be doing with what this website say I should be doing. I'm almost right (though the book and the website disagree with hymn recommendations), but I'm completely lost as to how I should find the concluding prayer.

The St. Joseph guide directs me to page 882 which says the conclusion is "as in the Ordinary". But, the Ordinary tells me that "For the weekday offices, the concluding prayer is taken from the current week of the Psalter." Which is where I'd just come from.

The website gives a very nice concluding prayer, but I can't find it anywhere in the book!

Any help?
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 
I have "Shorter Christian Prayer", which is a lovely compact version of the above, and I find it pretty confusing as well. (And I thought picking through the Canticles in the ECUSA BCP MP/EP was tough )

Is there some "How to pray the Daily Office" guide for RCs in printed form? I had been thinking of buying the book for my SIL but I wouldn't want to leave her to muddle through it.

Charlotte

[ 18. May 2005, 03:11: Message edited by: Amazing Grace ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Try The Divine Office for DODOS. Although it is mainly concerned with the four volume version, it should answer all relevant questions.
 

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Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
The St. Joseph guide directs me to page 882 which says the conclusion is "as in the Ordinary". But, the Ordinary tells me that "For the weekday offices, the concluding prayer is taken from the current week of the Psalter." Which is where I'd just come from.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

Is there some "How to pray the Daily Office" guide for RCs in printed form? I had been thinking of buying the book for my SIL but I wouldn't want to leave her to muddle through it.

Charlotte

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by FCB:
There are a couple different versions of Christian Prayer out there, but in the one that I have used the concluding prayers during the weeks of Ordinary Time are found in the psalter and the concluding prayer on Sundays is found in the Ordinary of that Sunday.

---

Thanks, FCB, that is indeed true of mine! I was somewhat confused as, immediately after printing the concluding prayer, a rubric in the Psalter directed me back to the Ordinary for the Conclusion. I've now worked out that the conclusion doesn't include the concluding prayer and am all happy.

"That," as Pete - or was it Dud? - once put it, "could confuse a stupid person."

IngoB, thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately, I was a very naughty boy in the bookstore yesterday. I only went in to get a catechism and left with... well, I shan't start the litany. So, no more book buying for me for a little while.

Thanks for the link, DitzySpike: I've been using that website to confirm I'm using the book right.
 

---

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
As a slight tangent, but still in the general area, I'm interested in people's use of translations of the psalter.

Do people use the one in the office book in front of them, or do you have a preferred translation you always go back to?

Does anyone use a "non-standard" psalter, such as the poetic translations by Peter Levi or Gordon Jackson?
 

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Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
Probably not quite what you're asking dyfrig, but I use the one in the book in front of me when I'm reading them, and switch to the parish psalter if I'm going to sing, for practical reasons like pointing and the notes being in close proximity

Which I choose, is typically based on my level of charity towards those within earshot, rather than a translational preference.
 

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Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
So it's just me who sings Anglican chant out loud on the train, then?

This explains why I get carriages to myself.
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 

quote:

---

dyfrig said:
So it's just me who sings Anglican chant out loud on the train, then?

This explains why I get carriages to myself.

---

quote:

---

This scarf was hand-woven by Samoan virgins from the hair of a delectable troop of choirboys, and is soft and gentle on the skin , and was once in the posession of Prester John.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dyfrig:
As a slight tangent, but still in the general area, I'm interested in people's use of translations of the psalter.

Do people use the one in the office book in front of them, or do you have a preferred translation you always go back to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
Daily officers,

To change (or, rather, to get back to) the subject a bit, I've devised and tested a two-week psalter schema based very closely indeed on the schema of our most holy father Benedict.

...

If anyone's interested, let me know here, and I'll put a PDF of the ferial psalter on my web site for download. If you do decide to download it, some feedback after a few weeks of use would be nice!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dyfrig:
As a slight tangent, but still in the general area, I'm interested in people's use of translations of the psalter.

Do people use the one in the office book in front of them, or do you have a preferred translation you always go back to?

Does anyone use a "non-standard" psalter, such as the poetic translations by Peter Levi or Gordon Jackson?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Nowadays I prefer the Oxford Psalter to the Parish Psalter. I know better to sing on trains, but often find myself humming round Safeway. It is much easier to remember Psalms by heart if you sing/hum them to Anglican Chant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:


Coverdale may be found set to real chant here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Second Mouse:
I love the idea of something that makes it much easier to remember the psalms.....But what is Anglican Chant?

---

This page from CCEL isn't a bad start. To hear it done, most Anglican Evensongs will either have a choir singing it alone, or choir + congregation.

Armed with minimal experience thereof, something like the Parish Psalter (10 quid from the usual suspects) is helpful in actually doing it - particularly for the chants , but you can make a decent guess at sensible pointing from any translation, I suppose.
 

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Posted by Second Mouse (# 2793) on :
 
Thank you!

Out of interest, what version of the psalms is used in Common Worship:Daily Prayer?
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:


Coverdale may be found set to real chant here.

---

Mm, wonderful looking book... With an encomium from Scott as well!

---

Oh, is THAT what it's called?
 

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Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Second Mouse:
Out of interest, what version of the psalms is used in Common Worship:Daily Prayer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dyfrig:
Does anyone use a "non-standard" psalter, such as the poetic translations by Peter Levi or Gordon Jackson?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:

At Matins, I've been using the readings from the CW office lectionary, and the shorter readings from 'Prayer during the day' at Lauds, Midday, and Vespers. Midday prayers is pretty much from the book with the draft schema (which is the same as the alternative psalter in the book).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Thank you, Dave. Well done! Two questions, now that my lovely red-leather permanent CW:DP has arrived:

---

quote:

---

1. How do you start Matins: p. 108 in the new book looks like a good way (The Acclamation of Christ at the Dawning of the Day)?

---

• 'O Lord, open our lips...'
• Ps 3 without antiphon, 'Glory to the Father...'
• Ps 95 as invitatory with ferial antiphon from psalter on feriae or a suitable variation on festivals
• The office hymn (though not always)
• First nocturn of three psalms from the schema
• Two scriptural lessons from the CW lectionary
• Second nocturn from the schema
• Reading either from 'Celebrating the Saints' or, on feriae, from 'Celebrating the Seasons'
• On festivals, Te Deum, otherwise straight in to Lauds, beginning with 'O God make speed...'
• Omit the printed psalm or canticle (as per rubric), then 'The night has passed...'
• Ps 67 without antiphon
• Psalter from the schema (psalms, then appointed OT canticle followed by Lauds psalms)
• Short reading (see below)
• Responsory, sometimes followed by office hymn
• Benedictus with antiphon, ferial on feriae, otherwise proper or common, as per rubrics
• Prayer, 'Lord have mercy... Our Father...'
• Collect(s), common commemoration
• Conclusion, as per the book
• Final antiphon

quote:

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2. Shorter readings from DP at Lauds, Midday, and Vespers: the same appointed one for the day at all three hours?

---

quote:

---

Wanting to try this out...Scott

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
Anybody know of any half-decent downloads of Anglican chant? I was hoping to post something for Second Mouse but my search powers are weak today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
I hope you get on alright with it. Give me a shout if want to know anything else about how I use it, and also to let me know if you think of anything else and want me to try it out.
Dave

---

Many thanks, Dave, for all the guidance. I prayed Matins and Lauds your way this morning, and it worked out very well indeed. For the hymns I used Hymns for Prayer & Praise from The Canterbury Press, Norwich, and for the patristic lesson I used Robert Wright's Readings for the Daily Office From the Early Church, published by our Church Publishing Inc. I've got the SPCK CW lectionary and the REB with Apocrypha. So it's a little library of five books. I could reduce it to three by using my 1979 BCP/NRSV combo.
 

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Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Many thanks, Dave, for all the guidance. I prayed Matins and Lauds your way this morning, and it worked out very well indeed. For the hymns I used Hymns for Prayer & Praise from The Canterbury Press, Norwich, and for the patristic lesson I used Robert Wright's Readings for the Daily Office From the Early Church, published by our Church Publishing Inc. I've got the SPCK CW lectionary and the REB with Apocrypha. So it's a little library of five books. I could reduce it to three by using my 1979 BCP/NRSV combo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
I haven't seen Robert Wright's book: is it in print?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Apart from church services, does anybody actually say the office with anyone else, in more than the spiritual sense?

---

My partner and I pray an office together, occasionally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Many thanks, Dave, for all the guidance

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
My partner and I pray an office together, occasionally.

---

That's beautiful, Scott. I only experienced this recently as I usually pray it alone (well, physically alone, if you know what I mean).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
I've corrected a couple of errors in my first upload. Please download the most recent version. There's an extra incentive to download, apart from my mistakes getting corrected: there now the beginnings of a festal psalter, and a psalter for the CWDP common office.
corrected and expanded schema

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Many thanks for this, Dave. I gather we're in Week 1 now; is there a system for determining the current week? With other two-week schemas I've sometimes consulted universalis.com to see what week of the RC liturgy of the hours it is; if 1 or 3, then 1; if 2 or 4, then 2.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
I've had an idea. Week one should start on the first Sunday of Advent, the Monday after Low Sunday (You'll see why when I finish the temporal schema), and the Monday after Pentecost. How's that sound?

And how did you get on with praying the whole Visitation office in one go yesterday? That sounds like a lot of office ;-)

---

I just remembered that New Melleray Abbey (Trappists) in Iowa use a two-week psalter scheme, and here's how they decide which week it is:

"To determine which week of the two-week cycle we are singing, use this tip. If the previous Sunday is an odd number (1st week in Lent, 3rd week in Easter, 21st week in common time), then we will be singing the odd-week cycle. If the previous Sunday is an even number, then we will be singing the even-week cycle." -from http://www.newmelleray.org

So by that plan, you're right to be in Week 2. Since this coming Sunday is the 3rd after Pentecost, the current week is the 2nd after Pentecost. Oops...CW uses Trinity, right? Hmm...but in the RC calendar we're in Week 9 of Ordinary Time/Week 9 of the Year/whatever. So that would make it Week 1. Not sure what to do! Wouldn't want to pray the wrong psalms, eh?

I didn't actually pray at all yesterday, which was very frustrating. Too many demands on me and interruptions prevented prayer. A constant problem.
 

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Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I just remembered that New Melleray Abbey (Trappists) in Iowa...

---

quote:

---

Oops...CW uses Trinity, right?

---

quote:

---

Not sure what to do! Wouldn't want to pray the wrong psalms, eh?

---

quote:

---

I didn't actually pray at all yesterday, which was very frustrating. Too many demands on me and interruptions prevented prayer. A constant problem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
David Goode, your two-week psalter schema is working out very well. Thank you for it.

Am I right in thinking the only readings from the CW lectionary are the two appointed for the First Office? I suppose the Second Office lessons might be read as lectio, or read before Compline, which is a time when some monastic communities hear a lesson, biblical or patristic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:
I'm a big fan of the Celebrating Common Prayer pocket edition, and have just put in an order for the new updated version that follows the Common Worship materials more closely.

---

The edition you ordered is excellent, IMO, especially for traveling. It provides a surprisingly substantial one-book office. It also doesn't look so very prayer-bookish, in case that matters to avoid harassment on public transport.

Might be an interesting angle to this topic: anyone have stories of praying the Divine Office (in any form) on public transport and getting reactions positive or negative? Here in Chicago, I'm pleased to see lots of people reading the Bible and some reading a breviary, usually the Roman Catholic Liturgy of the Hours in one edition or another.
 

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Posted by John H (# 9599) on :
 
I've never been "harassed" for reading my Bible or praying the Office on the train. Unless you count well-meaning fellow-Christians who engage you in conversation when they see you reading a Christian book... ;-)

Mind you, I'm enough of an evangelical to be nervous about being seen using an office book like CCP. Not because it constitutes "vain repetitions" (d'oh!), or standing on a street corner to be seen of men, but, um, because it looks "religious", and we get it drummed into us from an early age that doing anything that looks remotely religious in a "formal" sense is a Bad Witness. (Double d'oh!)



[ 07. June 2005, 16:03: Message edited by: John H ]
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by basso:
Anglicans Online this week has a link to a new site:

http://fullhomelydivinity.org/

If you follow the links to music you'll find a review of the St. Dunstan's Psalter. In general the review is very favorable, but there are some qibbles quibbled that no chant geek will want to miss.

b.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:

quote:

---

Originally posted by basso:
Anglicans Online this week has a link to a new site:

http://fullhomelydivinity.org/

If you follow the links to music you'll find a review of the St. Dunstan's Psalter. In general the review is very favorable, but there are some qibbles quibbled that no chant geek will want to miss.

b.

---

Thanks for that link, basso. Of course, now I'm even more impatient for my copy of the Psalter to arrive.

---

I'll second those thanks for that link. Interesting article - I've posted about it on my blog, here (hope posting links to one's own blog isn't considered bad taste round here... )
 

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Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by basso:
Anglicans Online this week has a link to a new site:

http://fullhomelydivinity.org/

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
Didn't read the home page, did you. They explain it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
I recommend this - Celebrating Common Prayer . On the grounds that a) it's what I use, and b) it's only seven quid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seeker963:

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
I recommend this - Celebrating Common Prayer . On the grounds that a) it's what I use, and b) it's only seven quid.

---

I didn't know this existed and, thanks to John H's post upthread, I just bought it. It will save me taking Common Prayer, my bible and the lectionary on the tube with me. Thanks to both for the mention.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xSx:
I wonder if you could give me some advice?
I want to inject a bit more discipline into my (practically non-existent) prayer life by trying to say a morning and evening office myself as close to everyday as possible...

Any suggestions? I've read most of this thread, but most of the discussion is a bit complicated and detailed!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Second Mouse:
Could anyone explain the link between this book and Common Worship? I couldn't quite make it out from the Amazon description. (Is it just me being dense??)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Second Mouse:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seeker963:

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
I recommend this - Celebrating Common Prayer . On the grounds that a) it's what I use, and b) it's only seven quid.

---

I didn't know this existed and, thanks to John H's post upthread, I just bought it. It will save me taking Common Prayer, my bible and the lectionary on the tube with me. Thanks to both for the mention.

---

Could anyone explain the link between this book and Common Worship? I couldn't quite make it out from the Amazon description. (Is it just me being dense??)

---

There isn't one.

The Alternative Service Book 1980 offered minimal provision for the recitation of the Divine Office, and what little it did offer was about as inspiring as chewing polystyrene.

The Franciscans compiled Celebrating Common Prayer for their own use, and as, at the time, this was the best and most Catholic book of offices in modern language that the Church of England had seen since pre-reformation days, it was more widely adopted. However, this publication was not a venture of the Church of England, was never submitted to the General Synod for authorisation and so was never in any true sense, an official book of the Church of England - this ws never its intended purpose. It had no more authority than, say, The Anglican Breviary or the office books at use at Mirfield. I personally found it to be not particularly good, rather confusing, and of the ilk that adopted Catholic practices but in a watered-down fashion, as though ashamed of them.

The authorisation of the ASB1980 has lapsed, and this has been superseded by Common Worship, which contains much more generous provision for the Divine Office. This is part of the authorised services of the Church of England, and although many CCP die-hards will still use CCP, as this is what has nourished them for years, Common Worship is far superior and is officially authorised for public use in the Church of England.
 

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Posted by John H (# 9599) on :
 
I think CW:DP is excellent, but CCP's pocket editions are better for taking on the train, especially in conjunction with a Bible. CW:DP seems to weigh about the same as a half-brick.

The texts of CCP and CW:DP are both available on the web, so you can get some idea of what you think of each one before you buy (though it's really only when you use an office that you can really begin to evaluate it - it's a tool for prayer, not a book just for reading).

But I should also point out that CW:DP is in many respects no more "authorised" than CCP. It has been approved and recommended by the House of Bishops, but it has not been officially approved by Synod (parts of it might make some evangelicals wince, for starters), and its authorisation stems mainly from compliance with the requirements for a "Service of the Word". CCP also complies with these requirements, and so it is also now a legally-authorised service, for those for whom this matters (I'm a Lutheran, so the legal requirements for the C of E are no longer an issue for me!).
 

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Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
Awhile ago I bought "Guard Us Sleeping," a CD put out by the Society of St. John Evangelist. It's sung Compline; there are two versions of the service, plus numerous hymns and songs. You can get it at Cowley Publications (http://www.cowley.org/) or at Amazon.com.

I got it because I really like singing the Offices, rather than saying them, and this is a way to do it at home, even by myself.
 

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Posted by John H (# 9599) on :
 
The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod's new "Lutheran Service Book" includes settings for chanted matins, vespers and compline. The standard is variable (the pointing for the Te Deum is particularly dire) but the compline setting in particular is very nice, with a lovely setting of the Nunc Dimittis that I use even when saying Compline from CCP or CW:DP.

Click here for PDF setting of compline.

Click here for links to the other LSB settings.

The main Lutheran services, including the Communion services, are all set almost entirely to chanting, though sadly many Lutheran churches don't bother with the chanting these days.
 

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Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Common Worship is far superior

---

May well be the case, but it's also a lot heavier.

Just to add that John H's link is to the text of the full version. The Pocket Edition is something of a revision, I think - much of the extra material is gone, but it has the advantage of including Compline.

And I rather like the fact the the second page that actually contains prayers, consists of the Jesus Prayer (as made famous by the Plot) and Angelus Domini. But that's showing my prejudices ;-)

Any of the CW insiders here know if there's likely to be an equivalent little book for CWDP, or would that negate its advantages?
 

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Posted by xSx (# 7210) on :
 
I think from what's been said here, I'll end up going for the Celebrating Common Prayer, just because it's smaller and lighter and I'm not too bothered by repetition at the moment (though could you expand on in what way it is repetitious?)
If I find I'm getting bored/want more, I can always come back to you all

Thanks,
S
 

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Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xSx:
(though could you expand on in what way it is repetitious?)
If I find I'm getting bored/want more, I can always come back to you all

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seeker963:
For me, the biggest issue will be the scripture readings although I don't see why I couldn't use the lectionary readings for the day and a compact bible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:
But I should also point out that CW:DP is in many respects no more "authorised" than CCP. It has been approved and recommended by the House of Bishops, but it has not been officially approved by Synod (parts of it might make some evangelicals wince, for starters), and its authorisation stems mainly from compliance with the requirements for a "Service of the Word". CCP also complies with these requirements, and so it is also now a legally-authorised service, for those for whom this matters (I'm a Lutheran, so the legal requirements for the C of E are no longer an issue for me!).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:
But CW:DP is excellent; it is an official Office for the Church of England, along with the BCP; so it should be used by those C of E parishes that still maintain the requirement for a daily Office. It is also a *beautiful* book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
In praying CW:DP (Def.), the thing that jumped out at me as "How did that get past the evangelicals on the Liturgical Commission?" was a line in one of the general Intercessions (I'm afraid I don't have my copy to hand at the moment so I can't say which page) which goes something like:

"Lord, by your incarnation and baptism, you have opened the Kingdom of Heaven..."

Now, I may have misunderstood them, but I thought that evangelicals followed the John Stott line of the complete centrality (to the point of isolation) of the Cross, and, thus, would have expected "by your Cross and Resurrection", which Catholics could have coped with too.

---

quote:

---

By the mystery of thy holy Incarnation; by thy holy Nativity and Circumcision; by thy Baptism, Fasting, and Temptation,
Good Lord, deliver us.

---

quote:

---

By thine Agony and Bloody Sweat; by thy Cross and Passion; by thy precious Death and Burial; by thy glorious Resurrection and Ascension, and by the Coming of the Holy Ghost,
Good Lord, deliver us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right: there is quite a lot in there that would offend protestant sensibilities. Not least of all if you also follow the CW lectionary with large chunks of the apocryphal and deutero-canonical books read as scripture, under the heading of 'Word of God', with the response 'This is the word of the Lord'.

---

quote:

---

Scripture Reading

One or more readings appointed for the day are read.
The reading(s) may be followed by a time of silence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:
CW:DP just has the following:

quote:

---

Scripture Reading

One or more readings appointed for the day are read.
The reading(s) may be followed by a time of silence.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
'That all who with Christ have entered the shadow of death may rest in peace and rise in glory, let us pray to the Lord'

I could see evangelicals having an (invalid, of course!) objection to that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode, on the positioning of optional readings from the Apocrypha:
Which is a sub-section of 'The Word of God'.

---

Yes, but don't forget that sermons in Common Worship services also always come in the section called 'The Word of God'. Putting something in the 'Word of God' section doesn't mean that you are thereby declaring that it should have been included in the NIV.

I still maintain that this Common Worship Daily Prayer is a cleverly-devised masterpiece of evangelical-catholic cooperation.
 

---

Posted by John H (# 9599) on :
 
Tom Wright has also said that "the sort of hymn you are likely to find sung at All Souls' commemorations these days is probably a piece of woolly Victoriana, hinting at purgatory without really coming out and saying it - which is what the entire commemoration, in its current Anglican mode, does at every point."

He went on to say that, "After attending several of these annual events, I got to the point a few years ago where I decided that, in conscience, I could do so no longer."

It looks like what CW is doing is to continue the long practice (from at least the ASB) of "creative ambiguity" concerning prayers for the dead - evangelicals (believing that "the tree lies where it falls") can read them as a prayer that the tree will fall in the right place, while catholics can read them as prayers for those in purgatory.

I suppose we shouldn't let this turn too much into a prayers-for-the-dead thread, but FWIW my own view is similar to that of Luther:

quote:

---

As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: ‘Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.’ And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice.

---

quote:

---

Finally, if prayers for the dead and prayers to Mary are being presented now as having "official" approval from the Church of England, but without any approval being given by Synod, then evangelicals have a legitimate gripe, even if you happen to disagree with them.

---

quote:

---

Am still slightly confused about which one to buy for private devotions though.

---

My own view is - if you're going to be using it at home, get CW:DP. If you're going to be using it on the train, get the CCP Pocket Version (the new, 2002 edition with CW texts). "But above all... HAVE FUN!!!"
 

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Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
I've updated the psalter schema, expanding a few bits, and correcting several mistakes. If anyone's using it, please get the latest from:

My CUS web site

Dave
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clerestory:

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode, on the positioning of optional readings from the Apocrypha:
Which is a sub-section of 'The Word of God'.

---

Yes, but don't forget that sermons in Common Worship services also always come in the section called 'The Word of God'. Putting something in the 'Word of God' section doesn't mean that you are thereby declaring that it should have been included in the NIV.

---

quote:

---

I still maintain that this Common Worship Daily Prayer is a cleverly-devised masterpiece of evangelical-catholic cooperation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
Not quite the case. The sermon is in the section 'The Liturgy of the Word' in CW, along with the readings. In CWDP, the readings are, along with the psalms, in the section 'The Word of God'. That's not the same thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clerestory:

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
Not quite the case. The sermon is in the section 'The Liturgy of the Word' in CW, along with the readings. In CWDP, the readings are, along with the psalms, in the section 'The Word of God'. That's not the same thing.

---

So it is! I hadn't registered that distinction. That's certainly true for most CW services, including Holy Communion. But the main CW volume's orders for Morning and Evening Prayer on Sunday do have a section called 'The Word of God'. And when this is the principal service, 'The Word of God' has to include a sermon and a creed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:
I wonder if we're not all labouring this point a touch.

---

quote:

---

It does suggest, however, that *only* having readings from the Apocrypha in any given service *would* be a problem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I don't like to see this thread sink to the bottom.

Has anyone procured a copy of the new Benedictine Daily Prayer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Going to miss my Galley's Prayer Book Office- Hymnal for the Hours/ Hymns for Prayer and Praise- NRSV Combo but the all-in-one Benedictine Daily Prayer is hard to resist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Benedictine Daily Prayer is not an easy breviary to use but it is convenient. One needs to be familiar with the Divine Office before using the book.

---

quote:

---

If a saint's day is designated as a memorial, does one use the festal psalms or the ferial psalms; the sanctoral common or the ordinary office with a commemorative collect? Had that problem yesterday.

---

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Benedictine Daily Prayer is not an easy breviary to use but it is convenient. One needs to be familiar with the Divine Office before using the book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyclotherapist:
I've been using CWDP and feel I have the general hang of how it is organised though I'm still fazed by details like the refrains (there seem to be two refrains provided for the Magnificat on a Saints day...feel I am missing something important here).

---

Having thought about what you might mean here, I assume your talking about a situation where it gives refrains for

Magnificat
Benedictus
Magnificat

in that order.

If so, when kept fully, a feast or festival starts at evening prayer the day before, and you would use the first refrain given. Then use the second on the day itself. The first, I think from memory, is labeled with something like 'on the eve, if required' ie if you're keeping evensong the day before as the first evensong of the festival.

Hope this helps

Wayward
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Thanks David! (I like the Sarum devotions you have on your website).

And Cyclo -

No worries. It's just the slip case. Actual cover is brown leather with embossed lettering in gold; plus the cross of St John's Abbey.

If you are comfortable with CWDP, you should ease comfortably into BDP. Takes a while to get used to flipping pages.

It gives provision for the recitation for the sevenfold office of Vigils, Lauds, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers and Compline.

You should adapt the materials to suit your schedule and lifestyle; and don't feel compelled to do all the offices, nor all the psalms. I've combined Vigils and Lauds, and besides that I only read Vespers. Keep in mind that it may be a good thing to balance praying the office with contemplative prayer and doing Lectio Divina.

There are many versions of the Monastic Breviary tradition out there and before getting one you may want to consider if you have already an existing connection with a community, otherwise consider the kind of liturgical language/ style that you respond well to.
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 
Thanks, Ditzy. I've got a book deadline bearing down on me at the moment, but once that's out of the way I'll be increasing the amount of monastic and Sarum stuff on the site and probably taking the Roman stuff out.

Would someone be so kind as to tell me two things about this BDP:

i) What's the psalter schema like?
ii) Is 'Vigils' a form of Matins? If so, what are the non-scriptural readings for it like? Are there any?

Dave
 

---

Posted by Cyclotherapist (# 9071) on :
 
Apologies for the lack of clariity in my prevous post. The mystery of the Magificat refrains is solved thanks to Wayward Crucifer. I should have realised that (Eve) referred to the Vigil Office.

Thanks also for your good advice Ditzy Spike, especially about the need for balance in one's prayer life. I think I'm going to keep on with CWDP for a while longer before switching, though I think I'll buy BDP just to have it ready to hand.

Cheers All

Cyclotherapist
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyclotherapist:
Apologies for the lack of clariity in my prevous post. The mystery of the Magificat refrains is solved thanks to Wayward Crucifer. I should have realised that (Eve) referred to the Vigil Office.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
Would someone be so kind as to tell me two things about this BDP:

i) What's the psalter schema like?
ii) Is 'Vigils' a form of Matins? If so, what are the non-scriptural readings for it like? Are there any?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Sentiments exactly. But the litanies in the Benedictine book is really superb. The depth of the spirituality starts off the day very well. For a discipline or an association with an order! Vows of obedience is a good thing.

---

Yes. I'm a Benedictine oblate; I haven't taken vows, but I do have a commitment to pray the Office daily. I'm often torn between our quite substantial BCP office and one that's more like monks use, such as the BDP we've been discussing. It is well to choose one form and stick with it; part of the discipline is to stick with the form one has committed to, even when it seems dull or when other forms seem like greener pastures. That happens to me almost daily. I should be a Carthusian and pray two offices daily...they pray a monastic one plus the Little Office of the BVM.
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Here's an excellent and informative review of Benedictine Daily Prayer: http://www.kellerbook.com/whatsnew.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Scrolling down a bit on that link, there's a very enthusiastic review of The Book of Divine Worship. Has anybody used that? How about Lauds and Vespers from the same site? Any thoughts? (It took me several Google minutes to find the publisher, BDW does not appear on Amazon at all, LV is not in stock...)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
now is it a most appropriate time to ask which types of liturgical dress coordinate best with which prayer books?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
now is it a most appropriate time to ask which types of liturgical dress coordinate best with which prayer books?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Just thought I'd report favourably on David's fortnightly division of the Psalter: I've been using it for over a month now and am quite impressed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
now is it a most appropriate time to ask which types of liturgical dress coordinate best with which prayer books?

---

That could cheerfully run several pages on its own!

Charlotte

---

Happy to oblige!

BCP is easy enough - surplice, tippet, hood. Anything monastic requires a scapular. Little Offices of BVM just scream cotta and lace.

For some reason, Oremus suggests cardigan, socks and sandals, though I'm not sure why...
 

---

Posted by John H (# 9599) on :
 
I found today's Celebrating Common Prayer pocket version's evening office very moving and appropriate after Today's Events.

Further details on my blog. When it comes to the psalm, no doubt someone will be able to tell me I got the week wrong (are we in week 7? I can never keep track) - what the hey, poetically I got it right, albeit inadvertently.

Did any other CCP users find any of this helpful too if they were using the evening office tonight?
 

---

Posted by angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:
I found today's Celebrating Common Prayer pocket version's evening office very moving and appropriate after Today's Events.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:
I found today's Celebrating Common Prayer pocket version's evening office very moving and appropriate after Today's Events.

Further details on my blog. When it comes to the psalm, no doubt someone will be able to tell me I got the week wrong (are we in week 7? I can never keep track) - what the hey, poetically I got it right, albeit inadvertently.

Did any other CCP users find any of this helpful too if they were using the evening office tonight?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Second Mouse:

But I'd be interested to know how other people cope with dry times. Is there anything you do that helps to shorten them? Or a way of thinking about this that helps you to keep going on.

Any perspectives or experiences?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Miffy:
Err... you may working ahead of yourself. I make this week, Week 7.

---

According to the table on p.12 of the book I'm using (CCP 2002 pocket edition), this is week 1 (Pentecost 8). I think CCP still follows the "Sundays after Pentecost" numbering, so last week was week 7.

And to think people say that CCP can be confusing to use!
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
Please can some kind soul
let me know how easy the reprint of the Benedictine Monastic Diurnal is to use ?
Does it have any readings at all ?

I am currently using a 1961 edition of Prime and Hours pub by Mowbray, which I find extremely easy to use :-)

I did look at Benedictine Daily Worship last week, but I must confess that I really do prefer traditional Thee/Thou language for the Offices.
I`m just an old fogey at the age of 41......
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
Please can some kind soul let me know how easy the reprint of the Benedictine Monastic Diurnal is to use? Does it have any readings at all?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Second Mouse:

But I'd be interested to know how other people cope with dry times. Is there anything you do that helps to shorten them? Or a way of thinking about this that helps you to keep going on.

Any perspectives or experiences?

---

There are a few things that I do -
1) end the office by going straight to the final collect and trust the universal church to finish up the work for me

2) stop the office and go into contemplative prayer

3) stop the office, take a quick glance through the rest of the prayer, focus on a small portion and do a lectio divina

4) add a tactile element to prayer. Sometimes I hold a rosary or a crucifix on one hand and as I pray the text, I apply pressure to the touch, or relax the hold accordingly.

Perhaps you can experiment with other ways of praying the text. Here's one possible model -

1) Say the invitatory and then sing the office hymn

2) Read one psalm and choose one way of praying it, such as

a) using the ignatian method of visualizing the imagery

b) do a lectio on a verse

c) try to emphathize with the Psalmist by drawing from your own experience and then use that empathy to pray for the world with the same shared human condition

3) Read the 'chapter' and then go into silent prayer.

4) Read out loud the collect, paying close attention to the sound of the words.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
4) add a tactile element to prayer. Sometimes I hold a rosary or a crucifix on one hand and as I pray the text, I apply pressure to the touch, or relax the hold accordingly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I think I've found a schedule of psalms that may well work for me with my new Office Book. I got it from St Dunstan's Plansong Psalter and copied the details onto a Publisher document, which I have laminated and have in my Office binder. I thought I'd share it, so here it is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Thank you! Most useful.

---

You're very welcome. (I spent long enough fighting with Publisher to put the borders where I wanted them that, in the end, it seemed like something of a wasted effort of only I got to use the result)

quote:

---

And, bless your heart, it's all in Roman numerals! I needed the practice.

---

That's the format that it's in in the Psalter, you see, and as I've printed it on A5, it was the only way I could make it fit, while being large enough to be able to distinguish psalm numbers from verse numbers. I can post an A4 version with "Arabic" numerals, if it makes life easier for folk. I'm happy to do it. Do let me know.

quote:

---

What's your new office book?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Miffy:
Err... you may working ahead of yourself. I make this week, Week 7.

---

According to the table on p.12 of the book I'm using (CCP 2002 pocket edition), this is week 1 (Pentecost 8). I think CCP still follows the "Sundays after Pentecost" numbering, so last week was week 7.

And to think people say that CCP can be confusing to use!

---

Ah That might just explain why I had to make a jump of several weeks at the end of Ordinary Time last time round. The things you learn onboard - I don't know...
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by John H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Miffy:
Err... you may working ahead of yourself. I make this week, Week 7.

---

According to the table on p.12 of the book I'm using (CCP 2002 pocket edition), this is week 1 (Pentecost 8). I think CCP still follows the "Sundays after Pentecost" numbering, so last week was week 7.

---

I'm looking at page 12 of the 2002 edition of CCP and it says "Seventh Suday after Trinity - Use week 7".

Last Sunday was the seventh Sunday after Trinity so surely this is week 7.
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Well it hasn't actually been published as a book yet, but it's available in looseleaf form for now, which should be on its way to me over the next week or so. It's called The Saint Colman Prayer Book, and is the Western Rite Orthodox Office book, based on the Sarum hours and, I believe, some other sources (possibly Benedictine?).

---

Is this generally available, or are you special?
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Well it hasn't actually been published as a book yet, but it's available in looseleaf form for now, which should be on its way to me over the next week or so. It's called The Saint Colman Prayer Book, and is the Western Rite Orthodox Office book, based on the Sarum hours and, I believe, some other sources (possibly Benedictine?).

---

Is this generally available, or are you special?

---

I'll mail you.
 

---

Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :
 
"Benedictine Daily Prayer -- A Short Breviary" arrived from Amazon today.

I was surprised to find that its publisher is not more than a two hours' drive away from me.

As with any office book it will take some time to get acquainted. To all appearances, though, a wonderful book.
 

---

Posted by Mark M (# 9500) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Is this generally available, or are you special?

---

I'll mail you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I'll mail you.

---

quote:

---

Dear Father, are the other Lauds and Vesper volumes coming any time soon? Will there be a compact one volume edition for the whole year?

---

quote:

---

Yes, we are working on the one-volume work right now. Stay tuned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
It's lovely, and I've experimented with praying the Anglican Rosary as it was meant to be prayed, but I still prefer the traditional Dominican Rosary (the one that now has 20 mysteries). Putting the Anglican Rosary beads over my folded hands while praying (is it Buddhists who pray with beads on this way?) helps me focus. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

You have always been a refuge to me
Before the mountains, before the earth, before the world
From endlessness to endlessness
You are

You turn me around
You say
Return child

A thousand years to you are like a yesterday
Like a lonely hour in the middle of the night

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I'm looking at page 12 of the 2002 edition of CCP and it says "Seventh Suday after Trinity - Use week 7".

Last Sunday was the seventh Sunday after Trinity so surely this is week 7.

---

Gosh, so it does. I'm a dimwit, aren't I?

OK, but Pentecost 7 it was week 7 in the old 1994 edition. Must admit it seems a little odd to have different calendars at work in two editions of the same book - would make it awkward to flit between them, say the full book and the pocket version.
 

---

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
I've been googling to try and find large print psalters, and came across the Shorter Christian Prayer, published by the Roman Catholic Church in the US. It appears to be a large type format of the standard volume of the same name - has anyone ever seen it and know what they mean by "Large Type" (a phrase that can mean anything from point 14 to 32)?
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
Do you mean this book?

One of the advantages of amazon.com over amazon.co.uk is that with the former it's often possible to look inside the book, at various sample pages.

Looking inside the book, which is claimed to be 10.8 inches tall, there are about 38 lines per page for the main section. I think that this can be no more than 13 or 14 point. The footnotes are clearly much smaller, and the index pages have about 50 lines per page, making them about 11 point.

It doesn't seem particularly large-print, but I'm only going by what is on the screen at Amazon's US site.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I was recently informed (after having recited the wrong version due to autopilot of the tongue) that the Gloria Patri of the Roman office

quote:

---

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit;
as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

---

quote:

---

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

---

I always though these were just two variant English translations of the same Latin text, but my informant (a person whose liturgical opinions I don't hold in high regard) gave me a mini-lecture, including - I think, though I wasn't really giving my full attention - an intimation that getting it wrong created some sort of anti-indulgence or something.

So I come to my trusted Latin scholars and liturgical purists and ask: are there really two versions of the Gloria Patri?
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
So I come to my trusted Latin scholars and liturgical purists and ask: are there really two versions of the Gloria Patri?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
So I come to my trusted Latin scholars and liturgical purists and ask: are there really two versions of the Gloria Patri?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
The Gloria patri that we used to sing in Welsh in college (can't find it now, I'm afraid, I'm sure Carys will be along to correct me at some point) ended with a word pronounced "wastad" which means "flat" or "forever" in place of saecula saeculorum or world without end (I suspect this was a translation of the English, not the Latin). I quite liked this.

---

quote:

---

Gogoniant i'r Tad ac i'r Mab ac i'r Ysbryd Glân
Megis yr oedd yn y dechrau, y mae'r awr hon,
ac y bydd yn wastad, yn oes oesoedd. Amen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
ac y bydd yn wastad,

---

IIRC this was invariably changed by seminarians to wydd yn bastad
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
I have just taken delivery of a 1938 copy of "the Day Hours of the Church".
It is lovely, but the two existing original ribbon markers are rotting , and if you put any stress or pressure on them, bits drop off, which is a little disconcerting

Can anyone advise me of a foolproof way of inserting new ribbon markers which will stay put permanently and also not damage the binding ?
Thanks !
 

---

Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
It may well have been just that, Carys, and the gwastad just stuck in my mind as I liked the idea of identifying spatial and temporal constancy.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
The Roman office in the States translates the Gloria Patri differently to the translation used in the UK. On this side of the Pond, it retains its BCPesque phraseology.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Found this Recording of the Music and Rituals of the Office used by the Benedictines at New Camaldoli Hermitage. Excellently sung with sensitive accompaniments with guitar, organ, piano and oboe. The New Camaldoli has an in house office books in few volumes in comb-binding. Seen them used at a house of the Order of the Holy Cross. And I've been coveting them since.
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
The Roman office in the States translates the Gloria Patri differently to the translation used in the UK. On this side of the Pond, it retains its BCPesque phraseology.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Found this Recording of the Music and Rituals of the Office used by the Benedictines at New Camaldoli Hermitage. Excellently sung with sensitive accompaniments with guitar, organ, piano and oboe. The New Camaldoli has an in house office books in few volumes in comb-binding. Seen them used at a house of the Order of the Holy Cross. And I've been coveting them since.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
I have just taken delivery of a 1938 copy of "the Day Hours of the Church".
It is lovely, but the two existing original ribbon markers are rotting , and if you put any stress or pressure on them, bits drop off, which is a little disconcerting

Can anyone advise me of a foolproof way of inserting new ribbon markers which will stay put permanently and also not damage the binding ?
Thanks !

---

If you open the book up and can see space between the stitching and the binding, it would be really easy. All you have to do is cut a piece of cardboard about a quarter inch shorter than the length of the book, tie ribbons to one end, and slide it into that space.

If you can't see airspace, I've glued bits of ribbon to the back cover and flopped it over.
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
Dear Spiffy, many thanks for the ideas.
I wanted to put several ribbon markers in, so I found it was less bulky to sew the ribbons onto the card rather than knot them.
The book now looks great, and so much easier to use with ribbons rather than bits of paper as bookmarks
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Has anyone else noticed the cheapness of the ribbons in CW:DP? Mine started fraying soon after I got it, and now the yellow one is hardly in one piece. Is this me not looking after it properly, or have other people noticed this phenomenon?

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
Thurible,
it may be worth painting a very thin layer of clear nail varnish on the ends of the ribbons, as this will stop them fraying to a certain extent.
Unfortunately it will make the ribbon ends quite hard, and may need to be repeated at intervals.

Failing that, making a tiny "hem" of 2 - 3 mm at the edge of each ribbon (preferably with a sewing machine)will also help.
Ultimately it depends on the quality of the ribbon used and how much usage the book gets, I imagine.
I would have thought it common sense for the book`s publisher to realise that anyone buying a Prayer Book/ Breviary is going to be using it an *awful lot* and put high quality markers in...
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
A wonderful suggetsion. Thurible knows he has a friend who can supply the necessaries.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:

I would have thought it common sense for the book`s publisher to realise that anyone buying a Prayer Book/ Breviary is going to be using it an *awful lot* and put high quality markers in...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyclotherapist:
In the 60s one could buy spare missal markers in Catholic Repositories.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyclotherapist:
They would be an alternative to gluing in your own ribons if they are still available. I shall investigate next time I'm passing the local Repository.

---

quote:

---

Do let us know the results of your investigations. :-)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyclotherapist:
Happy to help, though it may be a couple of weeks before I'm down that way again.

But I bet they are for sale online from somewhere in the world. Must have a google and see.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I have this CD, and it is indeed lovely. And if monasteries only knew how much cash they could generate by offering copies of their in-house office books on eBay and telling us office mavens about the sales! What a bidding war would ensue!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark M:
Scott (or anyone else for that matter),
Do you know where you can get CDs of the office, but just chanted (Anglican style?), no instruments...?

---

Generally, Anglican chant involves organ, and there are many recordings of cathedral Evensong, but I don't think that's what you're looking for. You would prefer monastic offices, chanted a cappella, right?

Society of St John the Evangelist (Cowley)

Here are several other Office Recordings.
 

---

Posted by Mark M (# 9500) on :
 
Thanks! Just what I was looking for...
 

---

Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:


Society of St John the Evangelist (Cowley).

---

Ah, the wonders of modern technology -- I have those CDs and just loaded them on my iPod.


[Preview post, preview post, preview post!]

[ 04. August 2005, 21:33: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
 

---

Posted by Berntsen (# 9394) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
So I come to my trusted Latin scholars and liturgical purists and ask: are there really two versions of the Gloria Patri?

---

Nope. The Latin translates literally: "As it-was in beginning, and now, and always, and in ages of-ages." Saecula saeculorum mimics a Hebrew superlative, also seen in Rex Regnum (King of Kings) and Dominus Dominorum (Lord of Lords). "world without end" is apparently due to Henry VIII, and is a real crap translation. How about "As it was in the beginning, is now, and always will be, forever and ever." That keeps all Latin parts and the Hebrew-style end, and sounds well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Weirdly, the monks at Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, who are usually burrowing into some forgotten memory of 17th century English, serve up the surprisingly contemporary Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto ages of ages in their 1997 Great Horologion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Best wishes, welcome and prayers Novus Ordo - it sounds like you've come well-equipped...

Just thought i'd haul this thread up from the bottom of the page to ask something that's been bothering me awhile. The BCP, in it's post-reformation, Mrs. Cranmer form, 1662 And All That, doesn't provide psalmody for months with 31 days - after 147-150 on the evening of the thirtieth day, you fall into a sort of liturgical abyss.

Given that choir obligation persisted for all clergy, what did they do? Repeat the day before? Anticipate the following day? Choose a few favourites? Go down the pub?

A small thing. But it's been bothering me!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Novus Ordo:
I have always been intrigued by Howard Galley's work "The Prayer Book Office", which is now out of print. I understand that this is basically an enhanced version of the daily prayer from the ECUSA BCP of 1979, with additional material such as office hymns, psalm antiphons etc. A copy came up for auction on eBay a couple of months ago.

Can anyone who uses or has used this book comment on its usefulness? It did occur to me that it could possibly be used to enhance other liturgies, such as the daily offices from the RC Anglican Use Book of Divine Worship. Also, I wonder if there might be any chance of a reprint?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Novus Ordo:
[qb] I have always been intrigued by Howard Galley's work "The Prayer Book Office", which is now out of print. I understand that this is basically an enhanced version of the daily prayer from the ECUSA BCP of 1979, with additional material such as office hymns, psalm antiphons etc. A copy came up for auction on eBay a couple of months ago.

Can anyone who uses or has used this book comment on its usefulness? It did occur to me that it could possibly be used to enhance other liturgies, such as the daily offices from the RC Anglican Use Book of Divine Worship. Also, I wonder if there might be any chance of a reprint?

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• Foreword.
• Editorial policy
• About the Collects and Notes on ceremonial
• Fasting
• The Sacrament of Shriving.
• The Preparation of the Sacrifice.
• The Office of Terce.
• The Great Litany.
• The Sarum Liturgy.
• The Office of Sext.
• The Office of Matins.
• The English Liturgy.
• The Office of Evensong.
• The Office of Prime
• The Liturgy of Saint Gregory.
• The Midday Office and the Angelus
• The Office of Compline.
• The Order of Churching of Women.
• The Sacrament of Baptism & Chrismation.
• The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.
• The Order of Burial of the Dead.
• The Liturgical Reception of a Bishop.
• The Sacrament of Holy Unction.
• The Form of Blessing of Water.
• The Form of Dedication of Objects.
• The of Preparation of a Place of Worship not a church.
• The Order for the Blessing of a House.
• Grace Before Meals and other Prayers
• The Rite of Palm Sunday
• The Rite of Ash Wednesday.
• The Rite of Maundy Thursday
• The Rite of Good Friday
• The Rite of Holy Saturday Midnight
• The Office of Lauds
• The Office of None
• Using the Offices
• Celtic, English and European Saints

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Originally posted by DitzySpike:
I think a good way to form a discipline in reading the office is to get connected to a monastic house as an oblate or associate. How can I get that being half a world away from the nearest Benedictine order; or should I choose between an episcopalian or catholic order?

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Originally posted by sheela-na-gig
I’m impressed by the people here who have the self-discipline for a daily prayer routine.

I’d be interested in people’s responses to the following: you normally have ten minutes to spare, give or take, on a weekday in a cathedral which is normally open during the day. The side altar has a reserved sacrament (r/h side) and an icon of the Virgin and Child (l/h side). How would you use these as tools?

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If this was a one off, I'd probably use the time for a nativity-based rosary. My rosary is faster, because I use the Jesus prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner) instead of the 'Hail Mary', and my nativity mysteries aren't exactly the same as the standard ones either, so ten minutes would just about do it.

On a regular basis I'd use it for a short office; I used one I made up for myself based on the prayer of St Columba until I recently switched back to CCP. In both cases, concentration on the icon would be how I would prepare myself for prayer, and awareness of the reserved sacrament makes the place even more of one where I can meet with God.

I should say that I was useless at keeping to a daily office until I started commuting again a year ago; now I read the office (silently to myself...) on the way in to work. I need a time when I am going to be reminded by my routine that I need to pray, unfortunately. For that reason, I still give God a day off from listening to me on Saturdays, which is biblical after all

Spong
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Re devotional ideas for a 10-minute time frame: I really like the Noonday Prayer; for me it's a welcome break in the weekday. (Most of the time I use the online Daily Office, right there at my desk at work...obviously saying the liturgy to myself.) The prayers for individuals and families are also helpful if you don't have a lot of time...frankly, I do the "short form" morning prayer more often than the Morning Prayer proper.

Another idea: In ten minutes you can do a little of what's called examen ...spending some prayerful time thinking about the things that have brought you closer to God and the things that have taken you farther away from God lately; thanking God for the former and asking for forgiveness and new direction regarding the latter. Or if you have one of the day's lessons handy...spend some t?ime reading it, slowly and prayerfully, and simply letting it speak to you...what is God saying to you, through this passage, today?
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
Good ideas! Also, if you need to "boil down" the Office to its minimum, that would be the Psalms appointed. Read or say them prayerfully, and you've prayed the Office. That's what the Office is for: the praying of the psalter.
 

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Posted by Novus Ordo (# 10190) on :
 
Here are a few thoughts concerning the pros and cons of several of the various forms of the Divine Office with which I am familiar:-


BCP(England 1662, England 1928, Scotland 1929)

The traditional offices of Mattins and Evensong have noble and inspiring language, but are rather lacking in terms of daily and seasonal variations for daily personal use. The deposited Book of Common Prayer of 1928 and the Scottish Prayer Book of 1929, though, also have additional material such as an order for Compline. On the whole, I prefer the BCP offices to be sung in church. If I recite them, I need to use extra material such as Office Hymns and some antiphons.

CELEBRATING COMMON PRAYER(original edition of 1992)

This is a very flexible office, with good daily and seasonal variations in terms of antiphons, canticles and intercessions. The language is more up-to-date than the current RC Divine Office, and it has a good selection of extra devotional material. I think I also prefer the version of the psalter to that of the Divine office. However, CCP is not entirely self-contained in that it lacks Office Hymns and also requires the use of a bible for the daily readings, although a few short readings are provided "for travellers".

I have not yet seen the revised version published in 2002 which uses the Common Worship psalter and has other ammendments.


THE ANGLICAN BREVIARY

Like the BCP, a very noble and inspiring office. It could well be used as a vernacular substitute for the traditional Brevarium Romanum, on which it is largely based. However, it is a complicated business learning to use it, although there is a most helpful website to assist one in this. It should also be noted that the AB uses Sundays after Trinity as does the BCP, whereas the Brevarium Romanum uses Sundays after Pentecost. Therefore, the respective Sunday offices for both books do not coincide, although one can get around this with a bit of working-out.


THE DIVINE OFFICE (translation of the Liturgy of the Hours as used by the RC Church in the UK and some other countries)

This has most of the essential elements for the daily office within one volume, and additional books such as a bible are generally not necessary. However, ordinary hymns are often used for Lauds and Vespers rather than translations of the traditional Office Hymns, which are only found in the Latin edition. Also, the translations of the psalms,canticles and intercessions now seem slightly dated in comparison with those in Celebrating Common Prayer and Common Worship Daily Prayer. Moreover, it is an expensive business to acquire the full three-volume edition if you want the Office of Readings as well! However, less expensive versions are also available, such as Morning and Evening Prayer and A Shorter Morning and Evening Prayer.

BENEDICTINE DAILY PRAYER; A SHORT BREVIARY


In some ways, this is the most successful self-conatined office book that I have yet discovered. It contains all the elements for the daily office within one book, including translations of the ancient Office Hymns, and is based on traditional Benedictine practice yet also has a modern ethos, with the revised 1983 edition of the Grail Psalter used for the psalms and the NRSV for the biblical readings. It also has a version of the Office of Readings in the form of Vigils, which contain non-scriptural readings on Sundays and feasts. Drawbacks are that the psalms are not pointed for chanting and recitation with asterisks, and the Gospel canticles are in unfamiliar translations which I do not particularly like. However, alternative ones can easily be found. The book also has a very nice leather cover, and really LOOKS like a breviary!

I have not yet had a chance to examine the definitive edition Common Worship Daily Prayer, although I hope to obtain a copy at some point. Although the single perfect office book has yet to be published, it may also be possible to "mix and match" with two or more existing volumes, such as by using the RC Divine Office in conjunction with the Common Worship daily office lectionary.

NOVUS ORDO
 

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Posted by Novus Ordo (# 10190) on :
 
I've just managed to acquire a second-hand copy of the "Book of Prayer" published by St John's Abbey in the USA in 1975. This was the fourth edition of their well-known "Short Breviary", and was basically the current Liturgy of the Hours, including the readings for the Office of Readings, condensed into one volume with some simplification and abridgement. The current Benedictine Daily Prayer was no doubt inspired by this volume to some extent.

This seems to me to be a very handy book, and it is a great pity that it is no longer available. My understanding is that the RC bishops in the USA at the time objected to the book, ostensibly because it did not use the approved translation of the psalms, ie the Grail psalter, but possibly also because the laity and some clergy might have preferred it to the "official" version of the LOH, all four volumes of which would have to be purchased, with consequent expense, if the complete breviary was required. I also believe that the bishops ordered all unsold copies to be impounded and destroyed, which means that it must be a pretty hard item to obtain today. The copy I have is by no means in pristine condition, but I do not know if I would ever get another, although I have seen a couple on eBay in recent months.

Does anyone else use or have used this book? Also, can anyone fill me in on the full story behind it's prohibition in the USA?

Now I must look for a copy of Galley's "Prayer Book Office"!


NOVUS ORDO
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

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Originally posted by Novus Ordo:
I've just managed to acquire a second-hand copy of the "Book of Prayer" published by St John's Abbey in the USA in 1975.

Does anyone else use or have used this book? Also, can anyone fill me in on the full story behind it's prohibition in the USA?

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Now I must look for a copy of Galley's "Prayer Book Office"!

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Originally posted by Adrian1:
Dumb Acolyte. I've heard of the 'English Office Book' and would love to own a copy but I gather it's as rare as hen's teeth.

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Originally posted by jlg:
*bump*

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

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Originally posted by jlg:
*bump*

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Bump?

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Originally posted by sheela-na-gig:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

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Originally posted by jlg:
*bump*

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Bump?

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shorthand for 'This interesting discussion could have more life in it if it was bumped back to the top so people were reminded it exists.'

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Ah! I completely agree.

I am back to the basic 1979 BCP (ECUSA) office and trying not to fiddle too much with other books, wonderful though they all are. When I feel distracted as I have recently, I just try to do the office the way it's read in our parish church, whether I'm there or by myself.
 

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Posted by sheela-na-gig (# 9673) on :
 
I've been informally experimenting with prayer connected to daily activities – I've been saying the third collect from Evensong ('Lighten our darkness, we beseech thee, O Lord - ') while checking the door locks before going to bed for a while now. As observances go, it's kind of informal: I thought of switching to the second collect for variety, but couldn't remember the third part of the 3x2 formula ('holy desires, just counsels, and um.') So I'm with the terrors and dangers for now, though I much say I don't have any particular terrors and dangers in mind - I just like the ritual.

I may expand this (leaving the house in the morning may be the next one) – I don't think the prayers have to be connected to the activities themselves in any literal sense, at least not for me. I'm thinking very short memorized bits of Cranmer woven into daily life.

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Originally posted by Spong:
I should say that I was useless at keeping to a daily office until I started commuting again a year ago; now I read the office (silently to myself...) on the way in to work.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
In the ECUSA 1979 BCP, there are full forms of Morning and Evening Prayer, and then short forms (1 page each) for "daily devotions for individuals and families." For those using this BCP, which one do you use, and why?

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Originally posted by dyfrig:
I'm really confused by the proliferation of CofE Commwon Worship/CCP variants at present. Visiting two branches the Society for the Prevention of the Coming Kingdom recently, I found the old standard blue CCP, a black-bound CCP which is actually a simplified Morning and Evening with a smaller Night section that looks to be using CW texts, and also a burgundy "Celebrating Daily Prayer" published by Continuum. Is that latter just another version of the black volume? What with this and the doorstop that is CW:DP, it looks as if someone at CofE central has gone a bit nuts with possible variations.

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Originally posted by LutheranChik:
My beef with my own denomination's daily prayers, apart from the portability issues with our hymnal, is the fact that they're set to music; and if you can't read music, or don't want to sing them, you have to navigate through all the musical notation to get at the words.

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Originally posted by LutheranChik:
It's the Lutheran Book of Worship (Augsburg Fortress) -- soon to be replaced by a new hymnal, so maybe if you wait a bit you can get remaindered copies at a discount.;-) And I've seen them sold on eBay too.

There are musical settings for Matins, Vespers and Compline, plus spoken Suffrages that can be used for noontime or other times of day.

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Originally posted by Thurible:
The Liturgy of the Hours:

My practice is to use the ferial psalter with ferial antiphons for memoria, using the memorial collect. I also use the ferial Office of Readings, but use the memorial second reading. What do others do?

Thurible

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Originally posted by Thurible:
The Liturgy of the Hours:

My practice is to use the ferial psalter with ferial antiphons for memoria, using the memorial collect. I also use the ferial Office of Readings, but use the memorial second reading. What do others do?

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Originally posted by Divine Office:
I was speaking to a priest friend of mine the other day who owns an original edition of "The English Office" which he received as an ordination present back in the 1950s.

He confirms that the book basically contains the Anglican offices of Mattins and Evensong with a good deal of extra material, such as antiphons, collects for Roman feasts, office hymns etc. He also said that some editions of the book were printed with a daily lectionary for the readings whilst others were not.

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Originally posted by Divine Office:
He also said that some editions of the book were printed with a daily lectionary for the readings whilst others were not.

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Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Psalm 118 was divided up into a bunch of parts, basically four letters at a time.

In my bible, Psalm 119 is the one with the letters.

What psalm is left out/switched?

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The organization and numbering of the Psalms differs slightly between the (Masoretic) Hebrew and the (Septuagint) Greek manuscripts:

* Psalms 9 and 10 in the Hebrew are together as Psalm 9 in the Greek

* Psalms 114 and 115 in the Hebrew are Psalm 113 in the Greek

* Psalms 114 and 115 in the Greek appear as Psalm 116 in the Hebrew

* Psalms 146 and 147 in the Greek form Psalm 147 in the Hebrew

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Originally posted by ecumaniac:
To save confusion, often people write both, eg. Ps 22(23).

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St. Benedict must've wanted to confuse us all. Meanie. Thank you!
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
According to the blurb in the Liturgy of the Hours, Roman Catholic liturgical documents tend to use the Septuagint numbering, whilst other things use the Hebrew.

Thurible
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
I want this thread to bounce back to the top. It's my favorite.

So I thought of this, which came to mind the other day as I was perusing George Guiver CR's excellent COMPANY OF VOICES, a history and analysis of the development of the daily office: He and others lately have made the point that the future of the daily office is to get away from a monastic or individualistic praying of the breviary and full psalter and toward a parish-group praying of a simpler office that involves several people in various roles and provides a chance to listen, sing, pray, sit in silence, and recite together. Guiver points to the Simple Celebration in CELEBRATING COMMON PRAYER (the fat blue book, not the slim black one). There's also the DAILY PRAYER volume from Durham.

How many of you use these regularly, and what is it like to use these in groups? We pray the USA BCP office in our parish church, very consistently, and this is not likely to change (I'm not saying it should). Just wondering what others do.
 

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Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
In the benefice I was part of in Oxford, Morning Prayer was said in one of the churches and Evening Prayer in the other. I regret to say that I never managed to turn up to 7am MP, but EP was according to CCP Mon-Fri (with Sat off and Sun 1662 BCP) and was pretty well attended: usually both clergy and half a dozen parishioners. It worked pretty well.
 

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Posted by Burbling Psalmist (# 9514) on :
 

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
the future of the daily office is to get away from a monastic or individualistic praying of the breviary and full psalter and toward a parish-group praying of a simpler office that involves several people in various roles and provides a chance to listen, sing, pray, sit in silence, and recite together. Guiver points to the Simple Celebration in CELEBRATING COMMON PRAYER (the fat blue book, not the slim black one). There's also the DAILY PRAYER volume from Durham.

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
One thing George Guiver mentions in his Company of Voices regarding ways for groups to pray a daily office is a psalm-recitation technique I never thought of until I encountered it at 4am Matins in a Benedictine abbey: simply one person reading out the psalm as everyone else listens.

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Originally posted by David Goode:
One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45 to do Angelus, and Vigils and Lauds, at a leisurely pace. Keeps me going, really.

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Originally posted by David Goode:


One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45

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Originally posted by Thurible:

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Originally posted by David Goode:


One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45

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You're a very unusual chappie, Dave!

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

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Originally posted by David Goode:
One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45 to do Angelus, and Vigils and Lauds, at a leisurely pace. Keeps me going, really.

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Benedictine Daily Prayer, right?

Which I like, but the publisher or author should really do a Web page with a guide on it.

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Originally posted by Thurible:
Those are the things LotH expects us to do, too. I don't think so! You'd never see the ferial psalter.

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You're right: it's a crap rubric, and should be treated with contempt.

Dave
 

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Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
I don't know about Benedictine Daily Prayer, but I suspect it's the same as in the LoH: 'From the Common...' on memorials (optional or not) refers to permissive use of the hymn, short reading, antiphons at the Benedictus and Magnificat, and intercessions, but NOT the psalms, from the relevant Common. On memorials the psalms with their antiphons are taken from the current ferial day, unless there are propoer antiphons or psalms, as will be indicated in each case (for example, S Martin of Tours, 11 November).
See the Introduction, Various Celebrations in the Course of the Year, c How the Offfice is arranged on Memorials of Saints.
 

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Posted by Dee-nz (# 5681) on :
 
Oh My Gosh,

A thread just for Me!!! How exciting. I have recently started trying to use the morning and evening prayer from the divine office but am finding it tricky to get the hang of. I really love it as a prayer/bible reading thing and it works for me so much better than the old guilt ridden quiet time thing did but it is loaded with prior knowledge and jargon

I am using Morning and Evening Prayer, the RC brevary with the four week psalter.

Anyway just to start with I have a couple of questions.

1. What week are we in right now? (I keep getting discouraged and lost)

2.what is the diffirence between the Liturgy of the Hours , and the Office of Readings.

3. Does the office of readings take you through the whole bible? in a year?

4. When do I change from Ordinary time to Advent?

Thanks guys

Dee
 

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Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
(Disclaimer: I use "Christian Prayer", which is a slightly simplified version)

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Originally posted by Dee-nz:

1. What week are we in right now? (I keep getting discouraged and lost)

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2.what is the diffirence between the Liturgy of the Hours , and the Office of Readings.

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3. Does the office of readings take you through the whole bible? in a year?

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4. When do I change from Ordinary time to Advent?

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Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The St Helena Breviary is coming out. It is a revision of 'A Monastic Breviary' from the Order of the Holy Cross, with expansive language and a wider inclusion of canticles (including those in 'Enriching our Worship'). Looks promising. A Monastic Breviary has an excellent 2 week psalm schema.

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Oh, thank God...I've been eagerly awaiting this, and I've purchased the St. Helena Psalter. Thanks for the brilliant news...makes my Monday!
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

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Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The St Helena Breviary is coming out. It is a revision of 'A Monastic Breviary' from the Order of the Holy Cross, with expansive language and a wider inclusion of canticles (including those in 'Enriching our Worship'). Looks promising. A Monastic Breviary has an excellent 2 week psalm schema.

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My order's in the mail to Vails Gate (one of the OSH monasteries) for the "monastic edition" of their new breviary ($80). I see that Amazon is already listing a paperback "personal edition" that is set to be published next May at $60 (but discounted to something like $40 by Amazon).

Now I'm in that weird zone again where I cannot fully enjoy life until my anticipation of a new breviary's arrival is fulfilled.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
Whenever I post to this thread (and most others, it seems), it's guaranteed to start a swift drop to the bottom. Sorry about this, and I'm trying to find a way to stop killing threads.
 

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Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Noticed that the amazon paperpack will be published by Church Publishing. Wonder if there's any intention for that to succeed Galley's Prayer Book Office. Maybe it will do to ECUSA what CCP did for the CofE.

How's the St Helena Psalter?

I'm quite getting used to the inclusive Grail psalms. Come think of it, it helps me get a larger sense of the poetry in its versification. Coverdale and the other prayer book versions now feel very narrowly restrictive in its parallelism.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

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Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Noticed that the amazon paperpack will be published by Church Publishing. Wonder if there's any intention for that to succeed Galley's Prayer Book Office. Maybe it will do to ECUSA what CCP did for the CofE.

How's the St Helena Psalter?

I'm quite getting used to the inclusive Grail psalms. Come think of it, it helps me get a larger sense of the poetry in its versification. Coverdale and the other prayer book versions now feel very narrowly restrictive in its parallelism.

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The St Helena Psalter is unfailingly inclusive but stays in the style of the 1979 BCP psalter, with verses divided in two halves by an asterisk, as opposed to the Grail strophic style. The St Helena is on a par with the Psalter for the Christian People and is, I suppose, an alternative to that. My only tiny quibble with the St Helena is that it's bound too tightly...a little hardcover that won't stay open, even after lots of massaging to soften the binding. Very durable, though! It wears out my thumb if I try to hold it open with one hand. Perhaps the breviary will have the psalter in an easier binding.

As for the inclusive Grail, I first encountered it on a retreat at St Gregory's Abbey in Michigan, and the abbot spent a half-hour with me acquainting me with their chant tones and with the inclusive Grail, which he described as having seemed to be edited with a certain "percentage of inclusive content" in mind, perhaps 85 percent or so.

I'm headed to Saint Meinrad Archabbey on Friday for a weekend oblates' retreat; I'll be interested to see whether they're still using the "old" Grail or have adopted a newer edition. I really want to borrow an office book but may not have the nerve to ask.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Does anyone know why the C of E Common Worship office has an office hymn at the start of Evening Prayer but not in the morning?
 

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Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Not a definitive answer, but I suspect this happened. In the ASB 1980, the phos hilarion was introduced as the opening hymn for evensong and that mirrors the Venite or Jubilate which is used for Mattins. Probably the office hymns are put in as alternatives for the phos hilarion. Mattins didn't need that, it has the invitatory.

I believe CW:DP also offer other canticles or the "blessing of light" as options as well.

I'm expecting my copy of CW:DP to arrive next week.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
That's a pretty good answer - though why they cannot or will not notice that 'the rest of the Western Church' has an office hymn after the invatory and bepore the psalmody annoys me.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
While I'm waiting for my Saint Helena Breviary, I plan to explore this new online one: The Daily Office for Gay People

I didn't think I'd like it, even though it's designed for People Like Me, but I found it well done. Just some special opening sentences and collects, otherwise USA BCP 1979.
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Scott, that's cool...I'll have to mention that in my blog.

Generally speaking I am uncomfortable with religious-compartmentalization-by-demographic -- been there, done that in regard to women's spirituality at an earlier time in my life, and I ultimately found it too exclusive and ghettoizing -- but on the other hand, every once in awhile you just want to worship with your people in a focused way. This would be a good resource for faith-based support groups, for retreats geared toward GLBT retreatants, etc.
 

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Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 
Interesting idea, Scott. Has some good prayers in it (that can easily be copied out and put in my BCP), but I made the misteak of reading the Teen one, and, well...
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Hee-hee...me too! What's with "Big Dude"?

I did post about this on my blog. It'll be interesting to see if anyone else caught that.
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
I saw that too, and will join you at the vomitorium.

The rest of it is okay, though. I like the addition of photos of gay folks "being the Church."
 

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Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 

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Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Hee-hee...me too! What's with "Big Dude"?

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But they say you're the hippest Dude of all, so feel free to send me a download anytime; I promise to answer right back.

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Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
I thought the speaker speaks from quite a depth of experience ('figure out this crazy world'), and has gone beyond learning to categorize to include and empathize with ('and our straight ones too'). So with such maturity, it felt really a deliberate talking down to God, which I suspect, can be a powerful ways to pray God is incarnate in and as a child.

subversive...

[ 11. December 2005, 07:55: Message edited by: DitzySpike ]
 

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Posted by Lamburnite (# 9516) on :
 

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
While I'm waiting for my Saint Helena Breviary, I plan to explore this new online one: The Daily Office for Gay People

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But I always thought that the Anglican Breviary was the Daily Office for Gay People.
 

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Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :
 

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Originally posted by Dee-nz:
1. What week are we in right now? (I keep getting discouraged and lost)

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3. Does the office of readings take you through the whole bible? in a year?

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4. When do I change from Ordinary time to Advent?

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Originally posted by Lamburnite:
But I always thought that the Anglican Breviary was the Daily Office for Gay People.

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Point taken.

But this gay man, yours truly, prefers to stay in tune with his church's liturgical calendar, and the AB isn't. I do have two copies, though, and sometimes pray from it.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
But this gay man, yours truly, prefers to stay in tune with his church's liturgical calendar, and the AB isn't. I do have two copies, though, and sometimes pray from it.

---

Speaking of staying in tune with my church's liturgical calendar, my Saint Helena Breviary did not arrive today.

I'll be living in a weird zone, emotionally, until it does.
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'll be living in a weird zone, emotionally, until it does. [/QB]

---

I'm not judging

Does anyone know how the Common Worship: Daily Prayer - Daily Lectionary Psalm schema works?
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
What is the source of the Compline prayer "Lighten our darkness, we beseech Thee..." ?
Is it from the Roman breviary, or is it seriously ancient ?
Just wondering :-)
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
What is the source of the Compline prayer "Lighten our darkness, we beseech Thee..." ?
Is it from the Roman breviary, or is it seriously ancient ?
Just wondering :-)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'll be living in a weird zone, emotionally, until it does.

---

I'm not judging

Does anyone know how the Common Worship: Daily Prayer - Daily Lectionary Psalm schema works? [/QB]

---

Someone else may know (hi, David Goode!), but one of my minor quibbles with Common Worship is that the lectionary is published separately as an ordo, so it's not easy to see the big picture of the psalm scheme. This situation was probably unavoidable because of all the material that had to be in the book itself, and I suppose a flexible lectionary was wanted rather than "carving it in stone" by printing it in the book. Another minor quibble is with the very short psalm selections for the Daily Office. Perhaps I'm too monastic, but I think the psalms should be central to the office.
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:
It is a prayer peculiar to the Sarum Use, which finished Compline, and that's how it made its way into the BCP. Though the collect appears in the Gregorian and Gelasian Sacramentaries, and the Leofric Missal, it doesn't seem to have formed part of the Roman Use. The English paraphrase by Cranmer differs slightly from the meaning of the Latin original.

Dvae

---

Many Thanks for this, Dave. It`s nice to know it is Sarum derived.
I wonder why it never made the Continental usage?

[fixed quote code]

[ 13. December 2005, 17:49: Message edited by: jlg ]
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
common worship has some of my favourite pieces - like the advent sequence for day prayer. i'm happy.
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Someone else may know (hi, David Goode!), but one of my minor quibbles with Common Worship is that the lectionary is published separately as an ordo, so it's not easy to see the big picture of the psalm scheme. This situation was probably unavoidable because of all the material that had to be in the book itself, and I suppose a flexible lectionary was wanted rather than "carving it in stone" by printing it in the book. Another minor quibble is with the very short psalm selections for the Daily Office. Perhaps I'm too monastic, but I think the psalms should be central to the office.

---

I've never worked out the rationale behind the allocation of psalms in the lectionary. I agree with you, Scott, that there are two few per hour, which is why I prefer a monastic schema.

Dave
 

---

Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 
In my meanderings across the Internet, I ran across this. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with it, and if it was worth the price tag (which is currently two day's net salary for me). The reason something like that appeals is because I travel a lot and shuffling Bible and BCP and Cycle of Prayer books on a v. crowded bus is not fun (dropped my BCP in a puddle last week ).

[stupid long URL. I kick you now!]

[ 14. December 2005, 16:22: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
In my meanderings across the Internet, I ran across this. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with it, and if it was worth the price tag (which is currently two day's net salary for me). The reason something like that appeals is because I travel a lot and shuffling Bible and BCP and Cycle of Prayer books on a v. crowded bus is not fun (dropped my BCP in a puddle last week ).

[stupid long URL. I kick you now!]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
In my meanderings across the Internet, I ran across this. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with it, and if it was worth the price tag (which is currently two day's net salary for me). The reason something like that appeals is because I travel a lot and shuffling Bible and BCP and Cycle of Prayer books on a v. crowded bus is not fun (dropped my BCP in a puddle last week ).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Scott, does it have readings for Holy Days or just amble along according to the Lectionary?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Scott, does it have readings for Holy Days or just amble along according to the Lectionary?

---

It has holy-day readings. Really everything you need to pray the office throughout the year.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I do Epiphany on 1/8, where should I take the psalms from 1/3-1/7? Do I use the Psalms from Christmas day like I was during the Octave of Christmas, or should I take them from the ferial psalter? If so, what week? 1?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I do Epiphany on 1/8, where should I take the psalms from 1/3-1/7? Do I use the Psalms from Christmas day like I was during the Octave of Christmas, or should I take them from the ferial psalter? If so, what week? 1?

Any help appreciated!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
The Daily Prayer of the Church

Earlier in this thread, I had posted a reference to this new daily office book. I recently acquired the book and find it impressive. Editor Philip Pfatteicher describes it as “an expanded and enriched organization of the daily prayer offices in the Lutheran Book of Worship.”

---

You've done a fine sales pitch: I'm now $45 poorer but will be greatly enriched, it seems, by this book.

Wonder whether it will arrive before or after the Saint Helena Breviary, about which I've sent e-mails requesting an acknowledgment of some sort and have been assured my e-mails are going to the appropriate sister but nothing further. Don't they know they're dealing with a breviary freak here?
 

---

Posted by Divine Office (# 10558) on :
 
The Daily Prayer of the Church sounds very interesting indeed. I might well be interested in acquiring a copy after the Christmas season when my credit card has recovered a bit! I've also got the forthcoming reprint of The English Office to consider as well!

Scott, perhaps you can give us your impressions of the book when you receive your copy. I would like to hear how it compares with, for example, Benedictine Daily Prayer, Common Worship: Daily Prayer and the current RC Divine Office/LOH.

There is a copy of the first edition of Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office advertised for sale in the Abebooks catalogue at the moment, but it is pricey at the equivalent of about £64 Sterling!


DIVINE OFFICE
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
I believe the Daily Prayer of the Church uses the collects by the Consultation on Common Texts, which are quite well done.
 

---

Posted by J.S. Bach (# 9633) on :
 
I checked the Daily Prayer of the Church for the collect sources and didn't see the Consultation on Common Texts (CCT) listed. It is possible that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's Renewing Worship materials do use CCT-developed collects, as they include a new daily lectionary based on CCT's Revised Common Lectionary.

This year has seen the release of quite a few daily office books/breviaries. It is often difficult to settle on one for long! I try to stay with one for at least a church season. I actually managed to stick with the rather creative Durham Liturgy's "Daily Prayer" volume for two years, but that is before I started saying Evening Prayer as well (this book only provides one full office per day).
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
This year has seen the release of quite a few daily office books/breviaries.

---

And this coming year we can look forward to the re-release of the handy "small brick" size of the USA BCP/NRSV combo, which works very well as a breviary and missal.

And I've heard from the Order of Saint Helena, telling me I should have my copy of their breviary within a week.
 

---

Posted by precentor (# 10755) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cheesy*:
We've just started using the celtic daily prayer liturgy (from the Northumbria Community) as an effort to be more disciplined during lent (and possibly beyond).

I was wondering what offices other liturgically minded shipmates use, why and how.

Thanks

C

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
And this coming year we can look forward to the re-release of the handy "small brick" size of the USA BCP/NRSV combo, which works very well as a breviary and missal.

And I've heard from the Order of Saint Helena, telling me I should have my copy of their breviary within a week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
And this coming year we can look forward to the re-release of the handy "small brick" size of the USA BCP/NRSV combo, which works very well as a breviary and missal.

And I've heard from the Order of Saint Helena, telling me I should have my copy of their breviary within a week.

---

Two bits of good news! I've been wanting a combined BCP/NRSV for ages, but the only place you can seem to get them (in any size) is on eBay.

---

You can order one here from Oxford U Press; it's due out in May. This is the genuine leather black number; there will be other bindings including a less-expensive but nice-feeling flexible cover. I think I have a Bible in that cover, and it feels sexy.
 

---

Posted by angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
This year has seen the release of quite a few daily office books/breviaries.

---

And this coming year we can look forward to the re-release of the handy "small brick" size of the USA BCP/NRSV combo, which works very well as a breviary and missal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Assuming you read MP, EP and NP and intend to go to Midnight Mass, what offices are said?

---

quote:

---

<Aside>Makes me wonder what night-shift Catholics read. </Aside>

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACOL-ite:

Am I right in thinking that, ideally, OoR for Christmas Eve should be said corporately as a prelude to Midnight Mass? CP doesn't quite come out and say it, but seems to hint at it. My US church (which I won't be at...) is doing an hour long gathering rite that seems a bit like a Lessons & Carols service before the Mass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
If you go to Midnight Mass, you don't say Compline.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Well I wouldn't get to sleep then! The (old) compline, which I can recite by heart, is my liturgical form of 'counting sleep' and I usually drop off half way through the nunc Dimmittis.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
The (old) compline, which I can recite by heart, is my liturgical form of 'counting sleep' and I usually drop off half way through the nunc Dimmittis.

---

The priest who's running our RCIA course told us that if we fall asleep halfway through a rosary, the angels will finish it for us! I wonder if they know Compline too..?
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Brilliant - I love that - not only do I hope they know Compline, I hope they know the version I use from the Cuddeston Office Book.
 

---

Posted by corvette (# 9436) on :
 
I thought the midnight mass crew got a bye through mattins?? Sorry, "it will be said privately this morning" as the Easter Monday dispensation used to go..

Particularly if they're turning out for the early service as well.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Brilliant - I love that - not only do I hope they know Compline, I hope they know the version I use from the Cuddeston Office Book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
The Daily Prayer of the Church

Earlier in this thread, I had posted a reference to this new daily office book. I recently acquired the book and find it impressive. Editor Philip Pfatteicher describes it as “an expanded and enriched organization of the daily prayer offices in the Lutheran Book of Worship.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
The priest who's running our RCIA course told us that if we fall asleep halfway through a rosary, the angels will finish it for us! I wonder if they know Compline too..?

---

[tangent]
The angels have finished quite a few of my rosaries, then.
[/tangent]

I received about $140 USD for Christmas, and am now wavering: do I want a combined BCP/NRSV or the Daily Office Book (or an exercise bike, as I had to ask for an extension for the seatbelt on the flight home tonight-- fun fact, the tag on it bears, among other things, the acronyms 'FAA-TSO C39').
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Get the exercise bike. You can do the rosary while you use it - it takes out the boredom.
 

---

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
I was wondering if anyone had seen the daily prayer series by Phyllis Tickle -- they're a trio of books grouped by calendar season rather than church season. I saw a brief description of them on Amazon.com en route to something else, and I wasn't sure if they were worth a second look. My understanding is that all the readings are contained in each day's prayers, with no flipping or cross-referencing a Bible needed.
 

---

Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Get the exercise bike. You can do the rosary while you use it - it takes out the boredom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I was wondering if anyone had seen the daily prayer series by Phyllis Tickle -- they're a trio of books grouped by calendar season rather than church season. I saw a brief description of them on Amazon.com en route to something else, and I wasn't sure if they were worth a second look. My understanding is that all the readings are contained in each day's prayers, with no flipping or cross-referencing a Bible needed.

---

I've seen them and don't like them too much, for my own use...pretty slim material there, unless you combine it with lots of silent contemplation. I should say she did a fine job with these books, but I prefer a bit meatier fare and more closely tied to a specific tradition, whether Benedictine, or BCP, or RC secular office, or whatever.
 

---

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
That was my impression just reading the review...sort of a Breviary Lite.

I think I'm springin' for the big book.
 

---

Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
That was my impression just reading the review...sort of a Breviary Lite.

---

I picked them up once and pretty much put them back down again; they might be good for someone who wants a short, speedy Office or is trying to get used to the concept of praying the office, but that wasn't what I was looking for.
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
I have the Tickle books, and as soon as I find them all, I'm putting them up on Amazon Marketplace. They were a good start but I'm loving, loving, loving my Daily Office books (the 2 volume ECUSA set).

Advantages - all inclusive, a good introduction to the Offices

Disadvantages - books are large and the readings are sort of a mixed bag. Also, I wasn't really thrilled with how the spring volume handled the whole "when does Lent start" thing.

Charlotte
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Don't leave us hanging! How do they handle "when does Lent start"? There's some other answer than "on Ash Wednesday" ?
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Don't leave us hanging! How do they handle "when does Lent start"? There's some other answer than "on Ash Wednesday" ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Don't leave us hanging! How do they handle "when does Lent start"? There's some other answer than "on Ash Wednesday" ?

---

OK, let's see if I can back up and 'splain myself here. Keep in mind I don't have the book handy.

The book is organized by week. The weeks are organized much like the Propers in the ECUSA (and other) lectionary ... e.g. "Sunday closest to Oct 29" sort of thing. There are special sections for Christmas week and Holy Week/Easter. Fixed feasts like major saints' days also get a look-in at the approximate time.

The problem with this in my mind is that I don't have a big noticeable shift from Not-Lent to Lent. About the only noticeable shift was that there was a seperate Lent compline section (no Gloria).

I'm sure this is fine for people who are just getting used to the idea of the Office and don't need the complication of keeping track of liturgical seasons as well. But I was somewhat annoyed by it.

Advent was a lot smoother in my opinion because of its relatively fixed start date.

I prefer how the ECUSA lectionary/office book deals with the varying length of Epiphanytide ... it allows for the maximum number of Sundays, but you don't get to all of them every year.

Charlotte
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
I was delighted to find out last night that the 1963 Canon Winfred Charles Douglas version of the Monastic Diurnal is being reprinted by the Lancelot Andrewes Press and is due out Spring 2006.
I emailed them and was told that the expected turnaround time from the printer is about 8 weeks, God willing.
It sounds great, especially with 6 ribbon markers
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I was going to post the same news just now!

Could people more knowledgable than I please give further details of the Monastic Diurnal. It has "all you need" for the seven offices. Is it BCP-compatible, or is it, essentially, another version of the Anglican Breviary/old Roman Breviary in nice English?

Thurible
 

---

Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

I prefer how the ECUSA lectionary/office book deals with the varying length of Epiphanytide ... it allows for the maximum number of Sundays, but you don't get to all of them every year.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
I was going to post the same news just now!

Could people more knowledgable than I please give further details of the Monastic Diurnal. It has "all you need" for the seven offices. Is it BCP-compatible, or is it, essentially, another version of the Anglican Breviary/old Roman Breviary in nice English?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
I was delighted to find out last night that the 1963 Canon Winfred Charles Douglas version of the Monastic Diurnal is being reprinted by the Lancelot Andrewes Press and is due out Spring 2006.
I emailed them and was told that the expected turnaround time from the printer is about 8 weeks, God willing.
It sounds great, especially with 6 ribbon markers

---

Yae! Yay! Yai! I can replace my old one with the crinkly pages and frayed-off ribbon markers.
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
Someone pointed out to me yesterday that in CWDP the 'O' antiphons are shown to replace the sentence "Lord Jesus, you are the one who is to come, the one whom we await with longing hearts", but that the 'O' antiphons are printed in light type, suggesting that they are said only by the person leading the service (the sentence they replace is in bold type).

Would you expect these antiphons to be said corporately?
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Someone pointed out to me yesterday that in CWDP the 'O' antiphons are shown to replace the sentence "Lord Jesus, you are the one who is to come, the one whom we await with longing hearts", but that the 'O' antiphons are printed in light type, suggesting that they are said only by the person leading the service (the sentence they replace is in bold type).

Would you expect these antiphons to be said corporately?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
I'll still pick up The English Office when it comes out, but this, soon-to-be-published 4-1/2" x 6-1/8" leather-bound 1979 BCP/NRSV volume is the one for me.

---

I see that amazon.com is discounting it 37 percent.
 

---

Posted by Divine Office (# 10558) on :
 
I have just emailed Andrewes Press to pre-order a copy of The Monastic Diurnal when it is reprinted in the spring. It ought to be worth waiting for!

It will be interesting to see how it compares with the Roman edition recently reprinted by Farnborough Abbey Press.

I am also looking forward to the reprint of The English Office to be published by Canterbury Press in February.

A Happy New Year to everyone!!!

DIVINE OFFICE
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
My copy of the St Helena Breviary arrived. It's bulkier and heavier than Peekskill's Monastic Diurnal Revised. The Mid-day Office, Vespers and Compline are fully set to chant in plainsong notation. Quite a good selection of canticles, including some sourced from Hildergard von Bigen and St John of the Cross.
 

---

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :
 
Hello folks. I'm just popping in to say that after a long hiatus I have decided (resolved, even ) to come back to the divine office.

So, I go to my online breviary supplier of choice, liturgyhours.org, only to find that they are now a subscription service

So, I am giving the Universalis Avantgo palm thingy a try.

If all else fails, there are always the heavy books to fall back on!
 

---

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :
 
[apologies for double-post, but...]

I just got a "recommended channel" page from Avantgo. Based on my other subscribed channels, they think I would be interested in reading the "Christian Science Monitor".

Hmmmm.
 

---

Posted by Divine Office (# 10558) on :
 
I understand that the forthcoming reprint of The Monastic Diurnal by Lancelot Andrewes Press is to be undertaken by the same printer in Korea who reprinted The Anglican Breviary for Daniel James Lula.

If the new edition of The Monastic Diurnal is reprinted to the same high standard as The Anglican Breviary, it will certainly be worth waiting for!

DIVINE OFFICE
 

---

Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Regarding the recitation of Compline on Christmas Eve, the Cowley Fathers' Hours of Prayer gives special features, such as the hymn Ex Corde Patris and the antiphon, "Watch ye, for ye know not when the Master of the House....." I have seen other Sarum based Office books that provide Compline be said with these special texts,even though there would be a Midnight Mass according to Sarum Use. The omission of the Hours when a Eucharistic rite occurs in the evening or night goes back, I think, to the Holy Week reforms of Pius XII. Those reforms eliminated public Vespers on Holy Thursday and Good Friday as well as Compline on Easter Even, for those attending, respectively, the Thursday Evening Mass, the Friday Solemn Memorial and the restored nocturnal Easter Vigil. As Msgr. Leon Gromier, Papal MC under Pius XII, says in his criticism of the aforementioned Reformed Rites, Vespers does not compete with the Eucharistic Liturgy. And, so far as Compline is concerned, Msgr Gromier reminds us, at some point we will go to bed, so why dispense with that Office? Although Vespers on Holy Thursday and Good Friday were said, not sung, before Pius's reforms, during the Middle Ages singing this Office communally during the Triduum was common practice.
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
My copy of the St Helena Breviary arrived. It's bulkier and heavier than Peekskill's Monastic Diurnal Revised. The Mid-day Office, Vespers and Compline are fully set to chant in plainsong notation. Quite a good selection of canticles, including some sourced from Hildergard von Bigen and St John of the Cross.

---

A copy reaches Singapore before one reaches me? If the 2pm post doesn't include a bulky, heavy breviary, it's on, OSH sisters!
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
A copy reaches Singapore before one reaches me? If the 2pm post doesn't include a bulky, heavy breviary, it's on, OSH sisters!

---

Well, it's on, I guess! No breviary, and I've e-mailed them to let them know I haven't received it. I wouldn't mind more of a preview, though, DitzySpike, while I'm waiting. You won't be spoiling it for me.

 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Uses the two week Psalter arranged by the Order of the Holy Cross, with different Psalms distributed evenly over the four offices, including compline. Proper sunday antiphons drawn from the 1979 Prayer Book lectionary. Interesting arrangement of the office during the Triduum.
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Uses the two week Psalter arranged by the Order of the Holy Cross, with different Psalms distributed evenly over the four offices, including compline. Proper sunday antiphons drawn from the 1979 Prayer Book lectionary. Interesting arrangement of the office during the Triduum.

---

Many thanks! Your reports are all I have so far, since the OSH sisters still haven't gotten my copy to me. They've cashed my check, however.
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
My Saint Helena Breviary got returned by our lovely postal service for some reason, even though it was correctly addressed to me. Another is on its way.

Meantime, I'm getting more and more impressed by The Daily Prayer of the Church, by Pfatteicher (love to know how he says his name), a worthy successor to Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office and ecumenical (Lutheran/Anglican) to boot.

Fun typo in Compline: Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentile and humble in heart...
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
I'm sure it doesn't take long for a parcel to arrive in Chicago from Georgia or New York.

S Helena Breviary has a strange order for the office when you use one lection instead of two: Lesson - Canticle - Office Hymn - Gospel Canticle. Wonder about the rationale for that arrangement.

I'm not sure I like the ELLC translation of the Canticles with the address to God in the second person. I'm still left pining for the dense language of the ICEL Psalter.

How's the Psalm translation in the Lutheran book? Is it the same as the one proposed by 'Renewing Worship'? How is the book different from ELCA's 'Daily Prayer'?
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
I'm sure it doesn't take long for a parcel to arrive in Chicago from Georgia or New York.

---

quote:

---

S Helena Breviary has a strange order for the office when you use one lection instead of two: Lesson - Canticle - Office Hymn - Gospel Canticle. Wonder about the rationale for that arrangement.

---

quote:

---

How's the Psalm translation in the Lutheran book? Is it the same as the one proposed by 'Renewing Worship'? How is the book different from ELCA's 'Daily Prayer'?

---

Pfatteicher's 'Daily Prayer of the Church' uses the 1979 ECUSA BCP psalter as given in the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship. He took a long time on this office book, which may explain some of the surprisingly non-bleeding-edge aspects of it. I'm glad to see the LBW office get such a full treatment, with material from lots of sources: the BCP and Hymnal 1982 (a lot), Lutheran Worship, and I think a few things from the new Daily Prayer book of musings. It does make one wonder, though, what might happen to Pfatteicher's office when the LBW goes away. I'm not sure his book is getting widespread distribution or use at $45. But Galley's book has always been really expensive, too. Both Pfatteicher's and Galley's are offices for those who want to have the fullest working-out of their denominations' official offices. Lots of people in both denominations have never heard of these resources and never will, or will get a glassy look in their eyes when they do.
 

---

Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :
 
Yesterday I received my copy of "The Daily Prayer of the Church", by Pfatteicher. I haven't had time to use it yet, but have looked through it, and am very impressed; it's definitely user-friendly, and contains multiple office hymns, and antiphons for use with the canticles and psalms.

The book I regularly use is "The Prayer Book Office" by Howard Galley, which is sadly out of print. I'll probably continue to use this book, but supplement it with "The Daily Prayer of the Church," which seems to contain a gold mine of good texts.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

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Originally posted by Swick:
Yesterday I received my copy of "The Daily Prayer of the Church", by Pfatteicher. I haven't had time to use it yet, but have looked through it, and am very impressed; it's definitely user-friendly, and contains multiple office hymns, and antiphons for use with the canticles and psalms.

The book I regularly use is "The Prayer Book Office" by Howard Galley, which is sadly out of print. I'll probably continue to use this book, but supplement it with "The Daily Prayer of the Church," which seems to contain a gold mine of good texts.

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Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
What do other shipmates use for hymns and hymn tunes in the offices?

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Make it up as I go along.
 

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Posted by Choirboy (# 9659) on :
 
The New English Hymnal, I believe, has a large number of the daily office hymns with music. I have what I call for better or worse the "Old English Hymnal" from the 1930s which certainly does. And many of the tunes to those office hymns (not surprisingly) fit the meter of other hymn texts from the office.

I have the Monastic Diurnal Noted from Lancelot Andrewes Press; this is the reprinting of Winfred Douglas's adaptation of chant to the Monastic Diurnal from OUP (also soon to be reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press). That has a large number of the hymn tunes organized along with the antiphons, etc.

I've been trying to follow an old-school Roman breviary (www.breviary.net). I haven't gotten to the point of using the "right" hymn tunes yet (from the MDN) as I am not the best at sight singing and have even more difficulty when the music is on a different page than the words, but I'm getting there.

In the meantime, the chant for 'Creator of the Stars of Night' (which is in the Hymnal 82 among other places) seems to fit a lot of the texts I've encountered so far (I think the MDN lists it as a 'Winter Hymn' tune). I use that when it fits.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

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Originally posted by Choirboy:
In the meantime, the chant for 'Creator of the Stars of Night' (which is in the Hymnal 82 among other places) seems to fit a lot of the texts I've encountered so far (I think the MDN lists it as a 'Winter Hymn' tune). I use that when it fits.

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I've been praying with my new Saint Helena Breviary: Monastic Edition, and I'm impressed at how well the inclusive language is done: it doesn't strike me as distracting. The new canticles are impressive, as is the chant provided throughout. It takes the Order of the Holy Cross' A Monastic Breviary and enhances it richly. Quite heavy and not easily portable, but for home use it's great. I can use my old OHC one for traveling (and did this just last week).

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Originally posted by Choirboy:
***bump***

It appears www.breviary.net is down. Anyone else use or refer to this source? Does anyone know what's going on?

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dave@dave:~/Desktop> nslookup
> server ns3.secureserver.net
Default server: ns3.secureserver.net
Address: 64.202.165.10#53
> www.breviary.net
Server: ns3.secureserver.net
Address: 64.202.165.10#53

** server can't find www.breviary.net: NXDOMAIN

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Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
What do other shipmates use for hymns and hymn tunes in the offices?

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
For the Church of England: Canon 26 'of the manner of life of ministers'.

1. Every bishop, priest and deacon is under obligation, not being let by sickness etc, to say daily the Morning and Evening prayer, either privately or openly......

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Versicle: I heard a voice from heaven, saying unto me.
Response: Blessed are the dead which die to the Lord.

Benedictus
Antiphon: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me, shall never die.
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel: *
for he hath visited and redeemed his people;
And hath raised up a mighty salvation for us: *
in the house of his servant David;
As he spake by the mouth of his holy Prophets, *
which have been since the world began.
That we should be saved from our enemies, *
and from the hands of all that hate us.
To perform the mercy promised to our forefathers, *
and to remember his holy covenant.
To perform the oath which he sware to our forefather Abraham, *
that he would give us,
That we, being delivered out of the hands of our enemies, *
might serve him without fear,
In holiness and righteousness before him *
all the days of our life.
And, thou, child, shalt be call the Prophet of the Highest: *
for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways,
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people *
for the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God *
whereby the Dayspring from on high hath visited us.
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, *
and to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord:
and let light perpetual shine upon them.
Antiphon: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me, shall never die.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

Psalm 130
Out of the deep have I called unto thee, O Lord:
Lord hear my voice.
O let thine ears consider well
the voice of my complaint.
If thou, Lord, wilt be extreme to mark what is done amiss:
O Lord, who may abide it?
For there is mercy with thee:
therefore shalt thou be feared.
I look for the Lord; my soul doth wait for him:
in his word is my trust.
My soul fleeth unto the Lord
before the morning watch, I say before the morning watch.
O Israel trust in the Lord, for with the Lord there is mercy:
and with him is plenteous redemption.
And he shall redeem Israel
from all his sins.
Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord:
and let light perpetual shine upon them.

Incline thine ear, O Lord, unto the prayers wherewith we humbly entreat thy mercy: that the souls of thy servants, which thou hast bidden to depart this life, may by thee be set in the abode of peace and light, and made partakers of the eternal fellowship of thine elect. Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

O God, the Creator and Redeemer of all thy faithful people; grant unto the souls of thy servants the remission of all their sins: that as they have ever desired thy merciful pardon, so by the supplications of their brothers and sisters may receive the same. Who livest and reignest, ever, one God, world without end. Amen.

Versicle: Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord.
Response: And let light perpetual shine upon them.
Versicle: May they rest in peace.
Response: Amen.

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