Thread: Hell: God is not a bitch, bitch. Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Trin (# 12100) on
:
More than likely, this has come up before but:
I annoys the hell out of me when people call god "She". Because as far as I can tell, they do it for no other reason than to annoy people like me. It is no longer original or controversial. Just annoying. Quit it.
[ 15. April 2007, 20:48: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
Posted by Pure as the Driven Yellow Snow (# 9397) on
:
Shhh, Here comes Trin. Everyone ready?.....
She Is Lord,
She Is Lord,
She has Risen From the Dead and She Is Lord...
Ok ok, now for Marvin
Hi Martin...
Posted by davelarge (# 186) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I annoys the hell out of me when people call god "She".
Why? Are you denying that God has a feminine side?
quote:
Also originally posted by Trin:
Because as far as I can tell, they do it for no other reason than to annoy people like me.
Actually, they've probably never met you. And why should they care what you think? The world does not actually revolve around you.
quote:
Also originally posted by Trin:
Quit it.
No.
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Because as far as I can tell, they do it for no other reason than to annoy people like me.
Self-centered, are we? Earth to Trin: there are other reasons besides being original, controversial, or annoying.
My hair with her own hands she has braided...
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
More than likely, this has come up before but:
I annoys the hell out of me when people call god "She". Because as far as I can tell, they do it for no other reason than to annoy people like me.
Yeah right, cause you and people like you are the centre of the universe right and if someones does something to annoy you that must be their sole reason for doing it.
(How many times are we singing it PADYS?)
Huia
[ 02. February 2007, 06:40: Message edited by: Huia ]
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
More than likely, this has come up before but:
I annoys the hell out of me when people call god "She". Because as far as I can tell, they do it for no other reason than to annoy people like me. It is no longer original or controversial. Just annoying. Quit it.
Ok - so what's the alternative?
"he"? - are you really saying that God IS male and IS NOT female? Be very careful how you answer that!
"it?" - are you really saying that God is impersonal? Seems to me to deny 2000 years of Christian theology.
Using (occasionally) the word "she" reflects the fact that the Bible also uses feminine images for God from time to time. I'm sure that there's a Dead Horse or Ecclesiantics thread out there somewhere about this.
As this is Hell, I'll finish by saying:
Just take your tired, misogynistic, androcentric claptrap for a long walk off of a short cliff.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I annoys the hell out of me
Sounds as if you're too busy annoying yourself to mind who we call 'she'.
Posted by Trin (# 12100) on
:
Not at all saying God doesn't have "female qualities".
Also not saying that God is biologically male.
However since 99% of the time people call God "he" and very obviously, called "He" in the Bible, I can only conclude that people call him "she" just to make some point about God's femininity - and it is ALMOST always totally out of context in the discussion thats going on at the time. Therefore, its just to be controversial. Don't get me wrong - I can live with it. But it comes across as petty to me when people do it... why do they feel they have to take every opportunity to parade their God-gender issues during un God-gender related discussions?
Don't really see what the need is for personal attacks, since I've not attacked any of you... of course this is hell though, so you can get away with it, and it makes it so much more fun doesn't it. Pure Yellow Snow made me laugh though! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
Trin
Welcome
Hell can be a dangerous place until you get the hang of it. Best avoided until that happens. You probably don't realise it but you are actually parading some of your own God-gender issues your last post. Think about it a little. A slight case of "pot and kettle" I'm afraid.
And all the best.
Posted by davelarge (# 186) on
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Trin - there are some horrendously broad and sweeping generalisations in your last post. If you want anyone to have any sympathy for you, you'd better give some examples of where 'She' has been applied to God in a context that is deliberately controversial.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no pronoun (is that the correct grammatical word?!) that is adequate to apply to God, and while the bible does seem to use 'He' more frequently than 'She', neither does any justice to the nature of God.
So basically, quit whining until you have something specific to whine about.
Posted by samara (# 9932) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Don't really see what the need is for personal attacks
If you care to hear honest debate, start the same thread in purgatory.
You started it in Hell; you must just want to bitch. Specifically, to accuse any who uses "she" of being fake.
So, yeah, what is left but playing around?
Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on
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An OP which shows little understanding of the ship or awareness of gender issues in relations to GOd,
but still - great title which makes up for some of that.
4/10 ?
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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Oooo, a complaining newbie...who evidently thinks "she" = "bitch". (E.g., "God is not a bitch", as opposed to "God is not feminine".) Such a lovely way to get started on the ship.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Trin, perhaps the concept has escaped you, but many people--both women and men--NEED to relate to God as feminine.
Take a look at this archived thread from the oblivion board:
Purgatory--Use of the Pronoun She When Referring To God.
Then work on your evident prejudices about women.
Posted by My Duck (# 11924) on
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Looks to me like just another mysogynist who thinks they have a monopoly on the truth. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on
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We're all RooK's bitches down here, surely?
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
We're all RooK's bitches down here, surely?
Is RooK:
Do not turn over the answer paper until instructed.
Do not write on more that two sides of the paper at once.
Non-programmable pocket calculators may be used.
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Not at all saying God doesn't have "female qualities".
Also not saying that God is biologically male.
However since 99% of the time people call God "he" and very obviously, called "He" in the Bible, I can only conclude that people call him "she" just to make some point about God's femininity - and it is ALMOST always totally out of context in the discussion thats going on at the time. Therefore, its just to be controversial. Don't get me wrong - I can live with it. But it comes across as petty to me when people do it... why do they feel they have to take every opportunity to parade their God-gender issues during un God-gender related discussions?
Don't really see what the need is for personal attacks, since I've not attacked any of you... of course this is hell though, so you can get away with it, and it makes it so much more fun doesn't it. Pure Yellow Snow made me laugh though!
Actually no. As I understand it, the word used in the orginal language for God is gender neutral. But as the English language doesn't work that way and it would be disrespectful to address the Lord of Heaven and Earth, "it" so we use "he". And because when the first translations into English were done, there was no way anyone was going to use "she".
Okay, everyone, it's time for another rousing chorus, "She is Lord ...! She is Lord". Let me see those hands waving people!!! Praise her name!
Tubbs
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
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Hi Trin.
Good post. Expect abuse, because you've touched on something that is at the heart of what the Ship's about and said things that shouldn't be said.
Welcome.
Posted by Trin (# 12100) on
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Thanks mate.
Posted by mountainsnowtiger (# 11152) on
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I was under the impression that, apart from stuff which might cause legal trouble, there are no 'things that shouldn't be said' on the Ship.
There are, on the other hand, shit, misogynistic, self-centred generalisations which will be laid into because plenty of Shipmates will recognise them to be shit, misogynistic, self-centred generalisations.
Posted by Melbscape (# 11749) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
More than likely, this has come up before but:
I annoys the hell out of me when people call god "She".
Thread title. Quote. So, "she" = "bitch"?
Who knew.
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I was under the impression that, apart from stuff which might cause legal trouble, there are no 'things that shouldn't be said' on the Ship.
You'd be wrong about that, I suspect.
Posted by davelarge (# 186) on
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Gordon: It what possible sense was it a "good post"? It was short-sighted, unsubstantiated, totally vague, lacking in any discernible empathy with the people being criticised and utterly dismissive of an understanding of Christianity different from that of the writer.
In short, it was a pretty bad post.
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
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Hey davelarge. Give it a chance. Seeds are shortsighted, blind, dead things. We just have to see what develops.
Posted by the coiled spring (# 2872) on
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Do any of the learned shipmates know why Christ refered to God as Father and not as Mother?
Posted by davelarge (# 186) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Hey davelarge. Give it a chance. Seeds are shortsighted, blind, dead things. We just have to see what develops.
Yeah, if we're really lucky it might turn into another "everyone hates conservatives" thread.
Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on
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Trin, you're spot on that many people (most, in my personal experience) who use the feminine pronoun do it to shock or to further a feminist agenda, not to express a profound truth about God (which can't be known or expressed, anyway).
But don't let the plonkers know that they're annoying you, you see what rare happiness it gives them.
Heed Barnabas62's kind and wise advice and try making up a line of a limerick in the Circus, there's a much more spiritual class of Shipmate there. Well, some of them have strayed into this thread, you see what a bad effect it's had on them.
Posted by Trin (# 12100) on
:
quote:
So, "she" = "bitch"?
Indeed. Read up on your gangster slang.
Its all become a bit more serious than I originally imagined tbh. Call God she. I've had an epiphany - now I don't mind.
(Thanks FD)
[ 02. February 2007, 09:41: Message edited by: Trin ]
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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I find an excellent way to deal with the "God is she" brigade is to bless them by sprinkling them with holy water. They can't stand getting their raffia cardigans and organic muesli all wet.
(Or is it organic cardigans and raffia muesli?)
Posted by The Lad Himself (# 2073) on
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Speaking as a card-carrying member of the God-is-she brigade, let me just say ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
to the last post.
Obviously God's female. Otherwise how do you explain multiple orgasms? Exactly.
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
Well, God is not a female dog or a nasty woman, obviously. (Well, unless you read some of the OT stories where God sounds like a woman with serious PMS... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
)
Bitch as in 'you're my bitches' I thought meant 'someone who's my slave' or similar? So no, God isn't my slave either, despite what some of the 'heavenly slot machine' churches might say.
The other slang meaning of bitch would presumably be 'girlfriend'? (Disclaimer: I am not a rapper, nor do I play one on TV.) Well, God isn't my girlfriend, nor indeed my boyfriend, although you'd be forgiven for thinking so with some of the songs our churches like to sing.
(Ack, I'm just too fluffy for Hell, aren't I?)
[ 02. February 2007, 10:26: Message edited by: Gill H ]
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
:
Trin - actually, I think you have a point that sometimes it is used to irritate. But not always. There is a good solid biblical justification for addressing the female side of God, and it does address a bias that has been present for centuries.
Gordon - I realise that shortsighted, blind and dead are areas you specialise in. And seeds and nuts are closely related. And there should be a joke in that.
tcs - Father has many cultural implications that Jesus was using. It does not imply that God is definitively male.
And I'm sorry, but sometimes God is a bitch.
Posted by Melbscape (# 11749) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
Trin, you're spot on that many people (most, in my personal experience) who use the feminine pronoun do it to shock or to further a feminist agenda, not to express a profound truth about God (which can't be known or expressed, anyway).
...unless it's to express the masculinity of God, of course. It's perfectly expressible if one just sticks to the right gender, apparently.
But please, if it makes you feel comfortable to insist people aren't using the feminine pronoun to actually describe their relationship with God, their way of relating to God, do continue. Despite what people might protest who are that way inclined, I'm sure you have a greater understanding of their motives than they do themselves.
Posted by Melbscape (# 11749) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Hey davelarge. Give it a chance. Seeds are shortsighted, blind, dead things. We just have to see what develops.
Some obscure neurotoxic fungus, probably.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
Do any of the learned shipmates know why Christ refered to God as Father and not as Mother?
Because the aspects of parenthood and principles of entitlement and inheritance which He as ascribing to God were those expressed by and vested in fathers in His culture in His time?
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I was under the impression that, apart from stuff which might cause legal trouble, there are no 'things that shouldn't be said' on the Ship.
You'd be wrong about that, I suspect.
Apart from stuff that will get the Ship into hot water legally, what else shouldn't be said on the Ship?
Put up or shut up.
Sarkycow
Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on
:
It seems that with everything in this place two camps have emerged. Those who have no problems with God as she, he or some other personal pro-noun. Others who see others spirituality as a personal afront to reason decency (and because they can, this being a reasonably open forum for discussion of such issues).
I personally have no problem with calling God she and actually find it quite liberating. I suspect that most people when calling God she do so because they, like me, find it useful and not because they want to annoy you, or others who share your theological perspective. Prayer is essentially a deeply liberating experience, a literal expression of a relationship with the divine/transcendent. The language of prayer is also deeply personal and is an expression of our relationship with the divine/transcendent.
For many Godhead expressed in the female form is helpful if not a necessary balance. If your God is so small and limited that you can only conceive of him/her within the very limited scope of the English language allows then perhaps you should to go back to the Bible and see how limitless God is. Limitless in both form and expression and limited only by the limits of our minds and by our oh-so-limited language.
Oh, and if you come down to Hell and start ranting about anything don't be surprised if your backside is kicked black and blue by someone with a divergent opinion.
J Whitgift
Deceased Archbishop of Canterbury
Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on
:
Apologies for double posting.
Trin, with regards to your thread title 'God is not a bitch, bitch.' Do you normally call people with two X chromosomes "bitch"!?! Or just the female expression of God?
If it's the former I pray for your wellbeing as I imagine that 52% of the population will be calling for your blood. If it's the latter, then I pray for your eternal soul as that surely is blasphemy. If it's both [shrugs] then God help you ... ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 02. February 2007, 12:10: Message edited by: J Whitgift ]
Posted by Trin (# 12100) on
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No. Do I heck. I'll try to come clean here.
The thread title was an attempt to set the tone of the thread at slightly-less-than-serious. In some stupid films and rap songs, black guys indescriminately refer to women as "bitches".
My attack on people refering to God as a woman - only semi-serious - came from my assumption that people only do it because they want to constantly remind everyone that they don't go with the normal conservative assumption that God is a guy. My beef* is with the fact that they feel the need to make a point of it all the time - and NOT with the idea that God has anything femenine about him. I don't think anyone would argue that god has no femenine characteristics.
However, I have now been educated - it turns out people are infact calling God "she" because they feel more comfortable doing so than "he". Rather than to make any particular point. My mistake.
quote:
Some obscure neurotoxic fungus, probably.
Which of the two camps, Melbscape, would you say has thrown more neurotoxin around on this thread?
*beef
Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
Why? Are you denying that God has a feminine side?
I am, yes. God is transcendent. He does not have "sides".
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
Why? Are you denying that God has a feminine side?
I am, yes. God is transcendent. He does not have "sides".
Then referring to him as having a male side is equally in error.
And stop pushing your values on davelarge andreas. What makes you think your conception of God is better then his?
Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
[...]
Which of the two camps, Melbscape, would you say has thrown more neurotoxin around on this thread?
Thanks for the clarification. However, you entered were the one who entered the glass house and started throwing stones. Don't blame other people for responding to your attempt to start an argument in Hell, you got what you asked for with interest ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
As far as I'm concerned, there is no pronoun (is that the correct grammatical word?!) that is adequate to apply to God, and while the bible does seem to use 'He' more frequently than 'She', neither does any justice to the nature of God.
One of my daughters never uses a pronoun to refer to God. She just says God or God's.
Moo
Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Then referring to him as having a male side is equally in error.
And stop pushing your values on davelarge andreas. What makes you think your conception of God is better then his?
Referring to God as he or she or it is not a mistake PROVIDED THAT one does not ascribe maleness or femaleness or "itiness" to God. Referring to God as she, to indicate that there are female aspects in God is mistaken. You seem to be confusing between the two. Just because the same word is used it does not mean that the meaning is the same in the two instances where people say he or she with regards to God.
As far as I can tell, davelarge did not express a value and I did not use another value to oppose him. Knee-jerk reaction the raptor?
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One of my daughters never uses a pronoun to refer to God. She just says God or God's.
Moo
Θεός, in Greek is a noun of the male gender. Just as ιερέας (priest) is.
[ 02. February 2007, 13:19: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
Posted by starbelly (# 25) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
Why? Are you denying that God has a feminine side?
I am, yes. God is transcendent. He does not have "sides".
But he is a bit like a triangle, or at least he was in my Sunday School text books, but to be fair they also had Jesus stroking badgers and cute mice, so it might not have been that reliable.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
Why? Are you denying that God has a feminine side?
I am, yes. God is transcendent. He does not have "sides".
You are denying his view of God. Which is a value he holds.
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
:
Let us break down the word 'bitch', shall we?
Beautiful
Intelligent
Talented
Charming
Helpful
I'm Love's bitch, but I'm man enough to admit it.
Now, let us break down the word 'fuckwit'
Gordon
Trin
Coiled Spring
And now, places where God refers to/compares Herself to a woman:
Isaiah 49:15 - “Can a woman forget her nursing child, or show no compassion for the child of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.”
Isaiah 66:33 - As a mother comforts her child, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Psalm131:2 - “But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother; my soul is like the weaned child that is with me.”
Psalm 123:2 - “As the eyes of a servant looks to the hand of their master, as the eyes of a maid to the hand of her mistress, so our eyes look to the Lord our God, until God has mercy on us.”
Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 - “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”
Luke 15:8-10 - “Or what woman having ten silver coins, is she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
And now, let's sing!
Our God is an awesome God
She reigns from Heaven above
With wisdom, power and love,
Our God is an awesome God
[ 02. February 2007, 13:31: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
Posted by R.D. Olivaw (# 9990) on
:
quote:
Indeed. Read up on your gangster slang.
So you're a gangster are you?
Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
Θεός, in Greek is a noun of the male gender.
And nouns don't have genders in English. What's your point?
quote:
Just as ιερέας (priest) is.
And not content with making a nonsensical argument, you've also decided to drag an irrelevant point straight out of the glue factory into the thread. Well done you.
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
Do any of the learned shipmates know why Christ refered to God as Father and not as Mother?
He also said of himself that He longed to mother Jerusalem.
And Genesis 1:1, in the Hebrew, has the Spirit in the feminine, I am reliably informed.
Hebrew, and likely Aramaic, has a cluster of words for God, grammatically masculine, feminime, and plural.
All you monolingual anglophones with "God speaks in 1611 English" can go ... listen to U2, She moves in mysterious ways
Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
You are denying his view of God. Which is a value he holds.
As far as I am concerned, he has not expressed a view on God. If he was to express a view that God has sides (not that we can approach God as having sides, but that God actually has different sides), then I would disagree.
I have told you before that relativism is not what my view leads to. You choose to ignore that.
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
And nouns don't have genders in English. What's your point?
I'm not sure about that. What is the difference between God and Goddess, between priest and priestess? Truth is that the English language has worked over this difference by ascribing a negative meaning to priestess and Goddess, so no Christian can be said that he / she believes in a Goddess or accepts priestesses, but you kept the one word, God, priest, and extended it's meaning so that women are included. I am not saying that this is a bad thing. I am pointing out that since the gospels were written in Greek, since the Old Testament is written in Greek (I know that many Protestants prefer the later Hebrew version to the older Greek version, so that Old Testament argument will not be accepted by those people) then the Greek words are to be taken into account.
[ 02. February 2007, 14:10: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
Posted by davelarge (# 186) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
Why? Are you denying that God has a feminine side?
I am, yes. God is transcendent. He does not have "sides".
You are denying his view of God. Which is a value he holds.
the_raptor, let me stand up for myself
Not to put words in his mouth, but I think andreas and I are broadly in agreement that our language is a rather blunt tool when it comes to describing God. Sure, God has characteristics which are a bit male and characteristics that are a bit female. But ultimately God transcends any of these labels - we (and therefore the language that we invent) are made in God's image, not the other way round! This was all I meant by God's "feminine side" - it was a coloquilism.
Sometimes when I pray, I pray to a God that is mighty, disciplining, potentially wrathful even. Other times I pray to a God that is gentle, warm, almost cuddly. Neither of those modes of prayer deny that the opposite mode exists. It's just that my brain is too small to comprehend the full nature of God and I have to break it down a bit. I don't see that there's too much of a problem with that so long as I keep the wider picture balanced and don't focus on one aspect of God's character too greatly.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
Do any of the learned shipmates know why Christ refered to God as Father and not as Mother?
Why yes. Because he knew Our Blessed Lady was his mother. Matey.
Andreas, I think you will find that the Hebrew Bible is even older than the Septuagint.
[ 02. February 2007, 14:25: Message edited by: Amos ]
Posted by The Man With No Name (# 10858) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
And stop pushing your values on davelarge andreas. What makes you think your conception of God is better then his?
That's twice in two days that you've picked andreas up for "pushing his values" on others. I'm not on a mission to defend her/him, but I'm curious as to why you find it so unacceptable for her/him to voice an opinion on God that is different from others' opinions (and I assume, different from your opinion).
And what would be an acceptable way for her/him to express this?
If someone were to post on this or any thread that God is evil and starves little children to death for her/his own amusement, is it OK for me to post a reply that contradicts them? Do I have to word it thus:
"Well, in my opinion - which, obviously, you might disagree with, yours being equally valid, God is good and loving"???
Just curious.
Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on
:
*YAWNS*
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
More than likely, this has come up before but:
I annoys the hell out of me when people call god "She". Because as far as I can tell, they do it for no other reason than to annoy people like me. It is no longer original or controversial. Just annoying. Quit it.
Don't you have more more important things to worry about, like the rest of us? Fuck off.
Posted by Laura (# 10) on
:
I object -- Trin is clearly and authentically from the gangsta-rappin areas of Manchester, where Trin can pimp-roll around and check Trin's hos and make sure the bitches are given Trin phat props. Represent! (Makes "c" sign to forehead)
People should imagine God in the way most appropriate to their circumstances. As God cannot be directly perceived by humans, our efforts will necessarily fail.
I generally refer to God as "God", in order to avoid gender and the human constructs attached to the genders.
Posted by Laura (# 10) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Andreas, I think you will find that the Hebrew Bible is even older than the Septuagint.
[Eddie Izzard voice]
No! Surely not!
Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Andreas, I think you will find that the Hebrew Bible is even older than the Septuagint.
It is? You mean that the text in a synagogue is more ancient than the text in an Orthodox Church? Because if this particular Hebrew Bible we have available now is not more ancient, then I don't see how an abstract "Hebrew Bible" that does not exist nowadays being more ancient than the Greek version is relevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
People should imagine God in the way most appropriate to their circumstances.
Why? I think that the end result is for man to be feeling secure and not walking through the "darkness" of the mountain to meet with God face to face. So, I think that the opposite should be encouraged.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
Trin, you're a silly person, and God, she doesn't take pronouns nearly as seriously as we do. She told me this just yesterday. She's like that. What a gal.
The Raptor, you're a fucking jerk. Andreas1984 is welcome to express his (mostly absurd) opinions, and contradict other people's opinions, all he wants. That's not "forcing his opinions on [people]" but rather is this little thing called discussion and free expression, you shit-eating, nasal-grape-stuffing son of a rhinoceros.
Let's see, who else needs dressing down?
Oh AdamPater, you see how this isn't a one-line post? Becasue I know you value verbal diarrhea over content.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
Oh and by the way, the Hebrew Bible we have now is NOT older than the Septuagint, but in fact rather younger, being compiled and edited in the first century CE. Even a cursory knowledge of the results of Qumran would teach you a little about this. I suggest reading up.
Posted by Laura (# 10) on
:
parts of the Hebrew scriptures are immeasurably older than the Christian scriptures, surely.
P.S.: Andreas is free to say whatever he wants. Anyone saying otherwise is a dimwit. If we kept people from posting obscure drivel, who knows who would be left on the boards.
Posted by Mertseger (# 4534) on
:
The Goddess is a bitch, and I love Her with my breath and blood and cum.
But, then, I little care how some Christians might get their chones in a twist when I'm worshipping Her with like minded Pagans.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
parts of the Hebrew scriptures are immeasurably older than the Christian scriptures, surely.
The Septuagint are not the Christian Scriptures. They are translations of OT books made by Jews for Jews (in a process that started at least 200 years before the Masoretic Text was redacted) that happen to be used by (some) Christians.
And certainly the texts which both the LXX and the MT are based on are older than the Christian Scriptures, i.e. New Testament.
Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on
:
Yo Trin,I'm a bit confused, esse, cause where I live a bitch can be either a woman with cojones or a man without them...would you clarify, por favor?
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
The Goddess is a bitch, and I love Her with my breath and blood and cum.
But, then, I little care how some Christians might get their chones in a twist when I'm worshipping Her with like minded Pagans.
eww, Mert. That's gross.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
Do any of the learned shipmates know why Christ refered to God as Father and not as Mother?
To avoid people treating Mary as if she were God?
When I hear people referring to God as 'she' they are usually being humorous rather than irritating. When God made man She was only joking, When I told God I received communion from a female priest She said She didn't mind, etc.
But then maybe I move in the wrong circles.
On Sundays I sing from a Her Book.
Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
Do any of the learned shipmates know why Christ refered to God as Father and not as Mother?
He also said of himself that He longed to mother Jerusalem.
And Genesis 1:1, in the Hebrew, has the Spirit in the feminine, I am reliably informed.
Hebrew, and likely Aramaic, has a cluster of words for God, grammatically masculine, feminime, and plural.
All you monolingual anglophones with "God speaks in 1611 English" can go ... listen to U2, She moves in mysterious ways
"Mysterious Ways" is one of the Best. Songs. Ever. about the Spirit.
Now I will go back to sniggering at the image of a weedy white guy in England trying to act like a gangsta. And anyone trying to stuff God into a gender box. I will note that I usually use "He" but consider it in the gender-inclusive sense (general writing used to do this).
Charlotte
Posted by dolphy (# 862) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I object -- Trin is clearly and authentically from the gangsta-rappin areas of Manchester, where Trin can pimp-roll around and check Trin's hos and make sure the bitches are given Trin phat props. Represent! (Makes "c" sign to forehead)
If only Catherine Tate was a Shipmate. She could do a whole new series called, 'Take the Newbie who posts in hell seriously'. AKA: 'What a fucking liberty'.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
Trin, what Gordon Cheng means is that if you post opinions which a large number of shipmates disagree with, they will tell you so, and sometimes in the strongest possible terms. To Gordon, this seems like a denial of his free speech, because to him free speech (at least for himself) means to be able to say what you want and not have to listen to (or read) anybody disagreeing with it.
You'll also find he's not the most ... erm ... admirable of allies.
Posted by Laura (# 10) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
parts of the Hebrew scriptures are immeasurably older than the Christian scriptures, surely.
The Septuagint are not the Christian Scriptures. They are translations of OT books made by Jews for Jews (in a process that started at least 200 years before the Masoretic Text was redacted) that happen to be used by (some) Christians.
And certainly the texts which both the LXX and the MT are based on are older than the Christian Scriptures, i.e. New Testament.
I know that the Septuagint are not the Christian scriptures. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Why are lecturing me? It was Amos who said the Hebrew Bible was older. By which I assume she meant, the parts of the Hebrew scriptures which underlay parts of what became the Septuagint. Now if that's wrong, I'm prepared to hear otherwise.
[ 02. February 2007, 16:04: Message edited by: Laura ]
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
From where I sit in the choir stalls each week, I look directly across to the far wall where there is a memorial to 'Sophia' and have a little laugh to myself......
Posted by Lowly Worm (# 11663) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Lad Himself:
Obviously God's female. Otherwise how do you explain multiple orgasms? Exactly.
look for this to appear in a Quotes thread near you...
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
However since 99% of the time people call God "he" and very obviously, called "He" in the Bible,
Just to get this right. So when Jesus talks about a shepherd going out looking for his sheep at the beginning of Luke 15, he's talking about God searching out the lost sinner; and when he talks about the Prodigal son returning to a loving father he's talking about God welcoming back a repentant sinner; but sandwiched in between those two stories when Jesus refers to the woman who loses a coin and rejoices with her neighbours on finding it, he's just talking about some silly butter-fingered bitch?
Yeah. Right.
I've no problem with folks who prefer their God to be 'he' - as indeed I probably do myself - but there can be problems with folks who think that Bible neatly sustains their prejudice.
Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Trin, what Gordon Cheng means is that if you post opinions which a large number of shipmates disagree with, they will tell you so, and sometimes in the strongest possible terms. To Gordon, this seems like a denial of his free speech, because to him free speech (at least for himself) means to be able to say what you want and not have to listen to (or read) anybody disagreeing with it.
That, or he's just stirring shit as usual.
Charlotte
Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on
:
Anselmina: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
OliviaG
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Now I will go back to sniggering at the image of a weedy white guy in England trying to act like a gangsta.
*snicker*
And now, some words of wisdom:
You know it's kind of hard just to get along today.
Our subject isn't cool, but he fakes it anyway.
He may not have a clue; and he may not have style.
But everything he lacks, well he makes up in denial.
So don't debate a player straight
You know he really doesn't get it anyway.
---Offspring, Pretty Fly (For A White Guy)
[ 02. February 2007, 17:53: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
Posted by Qestia (# 717) on
:
We had a funky little hymn (almost wrote "him" whoops) in my crunchy-liberal ECUSA church called "Jesus as a mother" which I guess could be justified by Him saying he wanted to act like a mother hen towards Jerusalem, but otherwise confused me because, regardless of the gender of God, Jesus was definitely a man, right? Or is that also up for debate?
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
:
In every picture I've ever seen, The Man had long hair and wore a dress-- I think we can make a case for Jesus as a crossdresser.
[ 02. February 2007, 18:12: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
The Raptor, you're a fucking jerk. Andreas1984 is welcome to express his (mostly absurd) opinions, and contradict other people's opinions, all he wants. That's not "forcing his opinions on [people]" but rather is this little thing called discussion and free expression, you shit-eating, nasal-grape-stuffing son of a rhinoceros.
Meh, I was just returning the favour, after being told I wasn't allowed to say my values were better then other peoples (and that doing so is what lead to the Iraq war).
But that was an awesome insult.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
Spiffy
Thanks for the song reference - great lyrics. I thought this quote (same song) had an appropriate ring to it as well.
So if you don't rate, just overcompensate.
At least you'll know you can always go on Ricki Lake.
The world needs wannabe's.
So (Hey! Hey!) do that brand new thing.
Maybe that should go into a newby's intro pack as a kind (and kind of) warning?
Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on
:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Trin:
I annoys the hell out of me
Methinks it has annoyed the hell INTO you.
Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on
:
I find a bit creepy the whole concept of a man God up there or out there, all on his own with no women gods around, deciding to make earth and all the stuff on it and ..ta da! .. Man, in his own image and then thinking, "Right, now I'll make a woman, with boobies and holes that men's thingies can fit into and babies can come out of".
You know, for a bloke who had no one to model this on (as he evidently did man only having to look down), he must have had some pretty wild fantasies going on there.
I say he couldn't have done it without a lady god around to inspire him.
Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I say he couldn't have done it without a lady god around to inspire him.
I prefer the alternative to your story, i.e. that women are the result of the Bloke's wildest fantasy.
Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on
:
So poor old God has no one to do it with (although would probably quite like to), and has to be content with sitting up there in Heaven, watching people doing it (creepy) and then (according to many) when some men think "Oh, look there's a nice looking man and he has a hole and I can fit my thingy in there too", God bellows, "Oh, no you don't, you perv - go forth and stick that thingie in a lady so that I can watch!" (or something like that)?
Nope. I don't buy it. Too creepy.
Posted by mirrizin (# 11014) on
:
In Spanish, they say "those guys" to refer to any group of mixed sex. It's a mildly chauvinist thing that in the absence of a human neuter pronoun, we tend to say "he." "It" just doesn't do the trick when you're crying out to the divine.
Personally, I just find it easier to say "he," because practically speaking, God really needs to get a special pronoun, just because it's annoying to say "God" every time you're referring to God. It really must bug God to no end when people keep calling to God saying "God" this and "God" that.
In other words, "God" is just a word. God is the Word, and I think that fact confuses the heck out of trin. I also think the trin is taking himself and the "God" he has confused with God a tad too seriously.
Man, I wish I'd found this thread sooner...
Posted by The Riv (# 3553) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
And now, let's sing!
Our God is an awesome God
She reigns from Heaven above
With wisdom, power and love,
Our God is an awesome God
Got this far in the thread and this was the first thing that annoyed. Not bad, eh? What a completely piece-of-shit song this is, regardless of gender. Pitiful tripe.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
You know, there ain't NUTHING wrong with a nerdy white gangster rapper guy! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
White and nerdy makes my whigger girlish heart ripple.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So if you don't rate, just overcompensate.
At least you'll know you can always go on Ricki Lake.
The world needs wannabe's.
So (Hey! Hey!) do that brand new thing.
Barnabas - now you're quoting Offspring.
You're just too cool. you realize you're getting a bit of a fangirl following around here, right?
*squeal*
and my favorite part of that particular song:
Now cruising in his Pinto, he sees homies as he pass
But if he looks twice, they're gonna kick his lilly ass!
So don't deflate, play it straight
You know he really doesn't get it anyway...
sorry. as you were, people. I'm off to pray to my Girly God.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Thanks, comet. To quote Gag Halfrunt "I'm just zis guy .."
Posted by Mertseger (# 4534) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
sorry. as you were, people. I'm off to pray to my Girly God. [/QB]
(That reminds me: God Is A Girl by Groove Coverage is a really good track.)
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
And now, let's sing!
Our God is an awesome God
She reigns from Heaven above
With wisdom, power and love,
Our God is an awesome God
Got this far in the thread and this was the first thing that annoyed. Not bad, eh? What a completely piece-of-shit song this is, regardless of gender. Pitiful tripe.
Didn't say I liked the damn song, now did I? Honestly, I've been singing songs with lyrics like this for the last week, that was the first thing I came up with that had gendered pronouns.
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Don't really see what the need is for personal attacks
It's not a matter of need, poppet. It's more a matter of taste.
Now, go fuck yourself with a gardening implement until your crabs run screaming from your crotch covering the eyes of their children to prevent them being emotionally scarred.
Posted by saysay (# 6645) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
I will note that I usually use "He" but consider it in the gender-inclusive sense (general writing used to do this).
Charlotte
Used to. I was taught that when writing about a person of unknown gender or a group that included both genders, I should pluralize whenever possible, and alternate he/she when it wasn't. I generally find that alternating he/she wrt G-d confuses and annoys fewer people than pluralizing. But then, I write G-d, so I obviously don't care who the fuck I annoy.
Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on
:
Well, my memory goes a little further back than yours, but I figure whatever pronoun I use is mostly for my own convenience anyway.
Now crappy rewrites of traditional material to make it gender-neutral is something that actively annoys me (on the few occasions I encounter it) but I don't take it personally.
Charlotte
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
The US media has backslid quite a bit on non-sexist language.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
So poor old God has no one to do it with (although would probably quite like to), and has to be content with sitting up there in Heaven, watching people doing it (creepy) and then (according to many) when some men think "Oh, look there's a nice looking man and he has a hole and I can fit my thingy in there too", God bellows, "Oh, no you don't, you perv - go forth and stick that thingie in a lady so that I can watch!" (or something like that)?
Nope. I don't buy it. Too creepy.
Like this?
Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on
:
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Yes.
Posted by davelarge (# 186) on
:
I wonder if we shouldn't solve this issue once and for all by inventing a pronoun to use just for God which isn't gender-specific.
So. I propose that we use the word 'Cleh'. As in "God created the world and Cleh was pleased with what Cleh saw".
What do you think?
Posted by Pure as the Driven Yellow Snow (# 9397) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
I wonder if we shouldn't solve this issue once and for all by inventing a pronoun to use just for God which isn't gender-specific.
So. I propose that we use the word 'Cleh'. As in "God created the world and Cleh was pleased with what Cleh saw".
What do you think?
Given it's an anagram of lech, and the previous tangent, it seems a reasonable choice.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
God is the Word,
I thought Grease is the word ?!
Posted by samara (# 9932) on
:
"Them"
It's well on its way to being our gender-neutral singlular pronoun anyway, and we have the Trinity to justify it.
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on
:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord,
She is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
She hath loosed the fateful lightening of her terrible swift sword,
Her truth is marching on!
Now that's stirring stuff!
Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on
:
Surely, it would be:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lady,
She is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are shady,
She hath loosed the fateful lightening of her terrible swift embroidery*,
Her truth is marching on!
*OK, OK, it was a bit weak, but lady is not easy to find rhymes for.
Posted by bloodbro (# 12112) on
:
I like Joseph Campbell's approach
I agree that there are many faces to god, we see not god but a facet, a face
it may well be a feminine, masculine, neuter, or hermaphrodite
or a tree, rock, or bird in flight
depending on the viewer
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by samara:
"Them"
It's well on its way to being our gender-neutral singlular pronoun anyway, and we have the Trinity to justify it.
"Them" used as a singular pronoun is as much an abortion of the English language as most other attempts to "PCify" English.
I really hate that word.
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on
:
LATA - I posted for a bit of fun, but found the final result rather striking. I haven't changed pronouns round since the 80s, but I may start doing so again (in my head, if nowhere else) as I think it does me good.
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by samara:
"Them"
It's well on its way to being our gender-neutral singlular pronoun anyway, and we have the Trinity to justify it.
"Them" used as a singular pronoun is as much an abortion of the English language as most other attempts to "PCify" English.
I really hate that word.
Doesn't Jane Austen use it? And if it's good enough for her......
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
Oh, for heaven's sake. The male pronoun is absolutely right. God is an old bloke with a beard and a triangular halo sitting on a cloud. I know because there was a picture of him in my Catechism. This Catechism was compiled by priests, cardinals and probably the Pope himself so I have no reason to disbelieve it.
Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by samara:
"Them"
It's well on its way to being our gender-neutral singlular pronoun anyway, and we have the Trinity to justify it.
"Them" used as a singular pronoun is as much an abortion of the English language as most other attempts to "PCify" English.
I really hate that word.
Doesn't Jane Austen use it? And if it's good enough for her......
If one of the, if not the, most over-rated novellists ever uses it, it proves the usage is wrong.
Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
LATA - I posted for a bit of fun, but found the final result rather striking. I haven't changed pronouns round since the 80s, but I may start doing so again (in my head, if nowhere else) as I think it does me good.
I quited liked your song. However, calling a woman "Lord" is going to create quite a deal of confusion. A new word is required. (Not bitch, but).
Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on
:
Why not?
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the bitch,
She is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are kitch,
She hath loosed the fateful lightening of her terrible swift witch,
Her truth is marching on!
This one scans
Posted by samara (# 9932) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
"Them" used as a singular pronoun is as much an abortion of the English language as most other attempts to "PCify" English.
Really? Why? It's older than political correctness.
See: Language Log
quote:
The argument was settled long ago: singular they has routinely been used throughout the history of English, by all the best writers, until certain subcases were artificially turned into "errors" by self-appointed experts. Successively less discriminating pseudo-authorities then generalized the proscription in successively sillier ways, although they have largely been ignored by the users of the language.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by samara:
"Them"
It's well on its way to being our gender-neutral singlular pronoun anyway, and we have the Trinity to justify it.
"Them" used as a singular pronoun is as much an abortion of the English language as most other attempts to "PCify" English.
I really hate that word.
Doesn't Jane Austen use it? And if it's good enough for her......
I don't care. To me the word suggests some kind of ancestry with "they", which I don't feel to be "nice" (English already has to many words that are similar in spelling but different in meaning). I also think it would introduce whole new chances for new English speakers to get words wrong.
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I was under the impression that, apart from stuff which might cause legal trouble, there are no 'things that shouldn't be said' on the Ship.
You'd be wrong about that, I suspect.
Apart from stuff that will get the Ship into hot water legally, what else shouldn't be said on the Ship?
Breaking one of the 10 Commandments would be ten examples.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I was under the impression that, apart from stuff which might cause legal trouble, there are no 'things that shouldn't be said' on the Ship.
You'd be wrong about that, I suspect.
Apart from stuff that will get the Ship into hot water legally, what else shouldn't be said on the Ship?
Breaking one of the 10 Commandments would be ten examples.
1. Don't be a jerk
People are jerks all the time in Hell. People are jerks all the time on the other boards, we just normally get thrown into Hell for it.
2. Engage brain before posting your message
Self-evident that many people don't do this.
3. Attack the issue, not the person
Again, often violated on the others boards, and condemned to Hell.
4. If you must get personal, take it to Hell
People break this one all the time. I keep getting warned for doing it in Purg (I blame it on to many Hell threads being to Purgatorial) >.<
5. Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended
"Who you calling crazy asshole" thread. And the majority of Hell calls.
6. Respect the Ship's crew
This one matches your post.
7. Don't post illegal material
Covered under sarkys post.
8. Don't crusade
People break this all the time. You have to be pretty obvious about it to get in trouble for it.
9. Don't advertise or spam
Fits your post.
10. Only one identity per member
Has nothing to do with what you say on the ship. Just how you go about saying it.
So thats what? 2 1/2 ship commandments that restrict what you post?
Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on
:
Since we're in Hell and on the topic at the moment, how about a bit of a rethink on the gender of Satan? If God is the Bitch Above All Bitches, then surely the devil would be some kind of evil Bitch.
She's probably not too happy about people addressing her as a male all this time. And you'd better watch out if you piss off her, since she's not full of love and grace - she has demons, supernatural PMS and everything else she would need to cause whatever havoc she wants!
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
]Apart from stuff that will get the Ship into hot water legally, what else shouldn't be said on the Ship?
Breaking one of the 10 Commandments would be ten examples.
A voice of experience speaking there GC?
ETA: raptor, reading your fuckwittery a second time puts me in the unpleasant situation of having to defend GC. At least she only stirs shit but you fling it all around. And this is Hell, so of course he's a jerk, and of course he's attacking everyone. But I didn't see any crusading, advertising or spam. So shut up.
[ 03. February 2007, 12:18: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
More than likely, this has come up before but:
It is no longer original or controversial.
Nor is calling God 'Father', or talking about God has three divine hypostases united in possession of a single divine substance. Both were once 'original' and 'controversial' ways of talking about God. Pagans and Arians may well have thought that people spoke in such ways merely to 'annoy' them. Some, no doubt, did. But given that, in spite of their unoriginality, we persist in speaking of God in these ways, I'm not sure I see the point you're making.
[ 03. February 2007, 12:47: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
:
The problem with "them" is okay because Jane Austen does it is that she doesn't do it much. People who use that argument usually believe in doing it much more than whatever author they're talking about did it.
Also that argument easily defends my (opposite) practice of saying "he" when I don't know the sex.
Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on
:
In my opinion, the word 'God' retains the transcendent reality of the divinity while also pointing to the personal character of divinity.
Goddess, on the other hand, loses the transcendent part. Therefore, rightly we do not refer to God using the term Goddess. It is well known that people worshiped Mother Nature for ages. Civilizations flourished were a Mother was worshiped. The question to me is what relation is there between that Mother and the Christian God and whether calling God a She points more to that Mother than it does to God.
What do you think about those questions? I'd be interesting in learning what you people think.
[ 03. February 2007, 14:12: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
:
To me calling God She has nothing to do with any pagan (though Mertseger may reappear to taunt you soon, perhaps.)
I find the practice annoying because it often seems to involve messing up perfectly good old hymns not because God is less involved. However, newer songs that were written intentionally this way like this one? Awesome.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
And using "you" when just one person is meant was once an abomination. Language evolves. Get over it.
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
quote:
So, "she" = "bitch"?
Indeed. Read up on your gangster slang.
Trin, that's gangsta slang; there's a difference.
sabine
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
1. Don't be a jerk
People are jerks all the time in Hell. People are jerks all the time on the other boards, we just normally get thrown into Hell for it.
2. Engage brain before posting your message
Self-evident that many people don't do this.
Pot, dear? Kettle on line two. Wishes to discuss color with you, re: you're black.
Besides, numbnuts, the place to whine like a toddler about how mean the hosts and admins are is the Styx.
[ 03. February 2007, 15:21: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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Now that this thread has descended into erudite discussion on the effect of Jane Austen on modern grammar useage, Rook knows he is in Hell.
Posted by Mertseger (# 4534) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
To me calling God She has nothing to do with any pagan (though Mertseger may reappear to taunt you soon, perhaps.)
Do you honestly think that someone who asserts that Mathew Fox epitomizes Orthodox theology or that the Greek Older Testament preceded the Hebrew requires any additional mockery? Both andreas1984 and I descended into the morass of happy self-parody long ago and have never looked back. We are only here to amuse you.
I would quibble, however, that there is some evidence that at least some Goddesses were regarded at transcendent prior to the dominance of Patriarchal religion. But it was a pretty dark transcendence: Chaos, Tiamat, Kore etc. An undifferentiated feminine Beyond from which all else arose. The new thing of Hebraic theology seemed to be the idea of a benign, intelligent transcendence.
Our Lady's Prayer
Friday the 13th of March, 1992
Our Mother who art the Earth,
Hollowed be thy name.
Thy community come,
Thy cycle be done
In us as it is
In Your seasons.
Give us this day
Our daily bread,
And heal our hurts
As we try to heal
the hurts of others.
Lead us away from pollution,
And bring us all joy,
For Thou art the World,
The wonder and the glory
Forever.
Amen.
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on
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Jane Austen did all sorts of odd things. She uses 'myself' in a fashion which, these days, would be considered distinctly suburban.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
I would quibble, however, that there is some evidence that at least some Goddesses were regarded at transcendent prior to the dominance of Patriarchal religion. But it was a pretty dark transcendence: Chaos, Tiamat, Kore etc. An undifferentiated feminine Beyond from which all else arose. The new thing of Hebraic theology seemed to be the idea of a benign, intelligent transcendence.
Perhaps I should take this to Purgatory, but this is interesting. I mean to some degree I am certain that all kinds of gods and goddesses (transcendent and not) preceeded Christianity.
However, I somewhat disagree of patriarchical vs. pagan. After all, I doubt that historically the average "pagan" religion has been less male dominated though. Guys have been historically in a better position to dominate. Why not dominate religion?
[ 03. February 2007, 21:00: Message edited by: Gwai ]
Posted by Mertseger (# 4534) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Perhaps I should take this to Purgatory, but this is interesting. I mean to some degree I am certain that all kinds of gods and goddesses (transcendent and not) preceeded Christianity.
However, I somewhat disagree of patriarchical vs. pagan. After all, I doubt that historically the average "pagan" religion has been less male dominated though. Guys have been historically in a better position to dominate. Why not dominate religion?
It's almost certainly true that written history only indicates male domination in Pagan religions. But there is also a bit of evidence that at least some religions prior to the advent of writing were more matrifocal, and some of the societies were matriarchal (see The Golden Bough or Campbell's Masks of God, vol. I, for instance). But yeah, there was likely no pre-Patriarchal Golden Age that spanned the globe. Forgive me for using a shorthand for the pattern of replacement that quite probably occurred around the Mediterranean but may have been limited thereto.
Posted by Off Centre View (# 4254) on
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I remember hearing about one translation of the bible that had almost every reference to God being referred to in either a neutral manner or a feminine manner. However, the Devil was always referred to as masculine in that text, very interesting stuff.
God is non-corporeal so not a 'male' in the physiological sense - perhaps masculinity is a big scary concept that doesn't go well at the moment...
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
raptor, reading your fuckwittery a second time puts me in the unpleasant situation of having to defend GC. At least she only stirs shit but you fling it all around. And this is Hell, so of course he's a jerk, and of course he's attacking everyone. But I didn't see any crusading, advertising or spam. So shut up.
I meant dear numpty that those Commandments matched Gordon's claim (should have said "claim" not "post" but I obviously failed commandment 2) that the Ten Commandments restricted what one may say. I didn't mean to say that his post was violating any of them.
And one thing that that GC never does, TGC, is tell people to shut up.
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Pot, dear? Kettle on line two. Wishes to discuss color with you, re: you're black.
Besides, numbnuts, the place to whine like a toddler about how mean the hosts and admins are is the Styx.
Your post might be of value if I hadn't admitted to breaking commandments (or being warned about breaking them) in the very post you were responding to. And I wasn't whining about the H&A (they are far better then any other group of moderators I have ever met), I was responding to Gordon's whine about the Ten Commandments limiting his free speech.
If you had of followed commandment 2 you might have realised this. TGC's response is far more reasonable given my own failure of commandment 2.
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on
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Balaam (on Jane Austen): quote:
If one of the, if not the, most over-rated novellists ever uses it, it proves the usage is wrong.
Ruth! RUTH!!!!!! Where are you? I can't reply to this properly as I've got to go and celebrate the Mysteries. However, suffice it to say that every word that proceeds from the mouth of Jane is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword. As it says in 2 Northanger 3. 16: All Austen is inspired by God .....
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
Just popped in to give Balaam some support.
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
As it says in 2 Northanger 3. 16: All Austen is inspired by God .....
Actually, it was probably inspired by drink, if what I've heard is true, she was half sozzled when she wrote.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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Aw, come on, give the girl a break. All that undercover work as a secret agent for Napoleon took its toll on the nerves.
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Aw, come on, give the girl a break. All that undercover work as a secret agent for Napoleon took its toll on the nerves.
Secret? It's blatant.
She gives details of troop movements ("they're off to Brighton"), outlines the personal foibles of senior naval officers, to be exploited by other operatives,.... "Heh, ze admiral Croft, ve shall mek it look like ze carriage accidont. He iz olwez mekking ze dengereuse turns."
Clearly guilty of espionage.
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Pot, dear? Kettle on line two. Wishes to discuss color with you, re: you're black.
Besides, numbnuts, the place to whine like a toddler about how mean the hosts and admins are is the Styx.
Your post might be of value if I hadn't admitted to breaking commandments (or being warned about breaking them) in the very post you were responding to. And I wasn't whining about the H&A (they are far better then any other group of moderators I have ever met), I was responding to Gordon's whine about the Ten Commandments limiting his free speech.
If you had of followed commandment 2 you might have realised this. TGC's response is far more reasonable given my own failure of commandment 2.
Okay, I'm totally confused now. You're just bitching to be a bitch? And you're trying to say that you're taking the high road in all of this by attempting to get your Junior Hosting merit badge?
Bored now.
[ 04. February 2007, 14:51: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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I think he was trying to disprove Gordon, because he's under a strange misconception that Gordon listens.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Okay, I'm totally confused now. You're just bitching to be a bitch? And you're trying to say that you're taking the high road in all of this by attempting to get your Junior Hosting merit badge?
Bored now.
And you were bitching at me for some high moral reason? And I wasn't bitching. Bitching would be "My God Gordon is such a fucking numpty and this post is a perfect example".
Oh and nice example of defensiveness because you somehow read my post as a bitching about the H&A, when in fact it was refuting Gordon's bitch about Ships rules.
And Junior (Hell) Host badge? What has that got to do with the TC's? As I noted in my original post, Hell is where half the violators of the TC's end up. Saying "we failed to apply commandment 2" was meant to be more funny then "we are fucking idiots". I am not stupid enough to think the Hosts appreciate junior hosting, or need it. I much prefer to watch the Hosts maul people then do it myself.
And Gwai is right about my motive. I think reasoning with Gordon works better then swearing at him.
Not that much better though.
[ 04. February 2007, 16:23: Message edited by: the_raptor ]
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
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Wow, raptor, seriously, can I give you some advice?
Reach around behind yourself, son, and get a firm grip.
Now yank that stick out of your butt.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
I think reasoning with Gordon works better then swearing at him.
What evidence do you have for this absurd claim?
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
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Spiffy you don't know when people aren't being serious do you? Talking like that generates much more amusing reactions.
And it isn't like I haven't been called arrogant a lot. Even my friends say I talk arrogantly. I don't feel that arrogant, so it must just be my speech patterns. I figure I may as well not fight it and just play it for laughs.
It also makes me feel smarter. And I really need that ego boost.
You should be glad I have gotten dumber, I used to be much better at faking pretension (I should have kept hanging out with Philosophy and English majors).
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
And it isn't like I haven't been called arrogant a lot. Even my friends say I talk arrogantly. I don't feel that arrogant, so it must just be my speech patterns.
Or you really are arrogant but are in denial.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
And it isn't like I haven't been called arrogant a lot. Even my friends say I talk arrogantly. I don't feel that arrogant, so it must just be my speech patterns.
Or you really are arrogant but are in denial.
Actually it was something I used to worry about a lot, which generally arrogant people don't do (cause they *are* better then others, and those people are just jealous, etc).
And I don't fit the wikipedia definition.
I tend to talk arrogantly about things I am certain of, but don't think I am arrogant by examination of my total behaviour and thoughts. But I often don't pay enough attention to other peoples feelings when I am certain I am right. And I have to make myself do this.
These are the kinds of things that make me think I have some kind of non-NT brain.
[ 04. February 2007, 19:03: Message edited by: the_raptor ]
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Oh and nice example of defensiveness because you somehow read my post as a bitching about the H&A, when in fact it was refuting Gordon's bitch about Ships rules.
I have no complaint about the Ship's rules, and I'm not sure why you think I do.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I have no complaint about the Ship's rules, and I'm not sure why you think I do.
It's because he was foolishly -- you're not going to believe this -- trying to apply logic to some of the things you've said.
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
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Foolishly is correct. I have no dispute with the ship's commandments, and it's not a logical inference from any of my posts, taken singly or collectively, that I do.
My comment about the 10 commandments was a response to a direct question from Sarkycow about what thing's shouldn't be posted on the Ship.
Problems with the 10 commandments should be taken up, as I understand it, in Styx.
[ 04. February 2007, 21:08: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
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Ah, I see logic's not your strong point either. Wait, I already knew that.
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
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Well, as I appear to be in conflict with one of the Ship's finest logicians and deep thinkers, I'd better step back before I force him to post more than one line of thoughtful refutation. Cheers.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Oh and nice example of defensiveness because you somehow read my post as a bitching about the H&A, when in fact it was refuting Gordon's bitch about Ships rules.
I have no complaint about the Ship's rules, and I'm not sure why you think I do.
Because as I said in my original reply to you, most of them do not restrict what you may post on the Ship. About half of them restrict you, but most of those just get you chucked into Hell (and Gordon you are here so often you must enjoy it), and not banzored.
So it came off to me as you being defensive or something about the ships rules, cause you have been smacked by them before.
But I haven't been to bed yet so I am making even less sense then usual. Brain no worky good.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
But I haven't been to bed yet so I am making even less sense then usual.
THAN. The word is THAN. Can you please use THAN? Brrrrr.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
But I haven't been to bed yet so I am making even less sense then usual.
THAN. The word is THAN. Can you please use THAN? Brrrrr.
No, I can't. I always screw it up one way or the other. Their/There/They're, Where/were/we're etc
Its all to much. Blame the Australian education system in the 80's and 90's, that let me get away with fucking these all up while getting high scores in English.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
P.S. Seriously I am trying to work on it. I have major issues with these words even though I try and do them right. I will never have good grammar until FireFox has a decent grammar checking plugin.
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
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Just remember, thEn is tEmporal, thAn is compArative.
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
So it came off to me as you being defensive or something about the ships rules, cause you have been smacked by them before.
Hey tr.
I can see how it might have come across as that, and thought twice about even posting. But I'd been asked a direct question by sarky so, as I said, I responded.
The Ship's 10Cs are fine and don't need fixing.
Posted by Cusanus (# 692) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Its all to much. Blame the Australian education system in the 80's and 90's, that let me get away with fucking these all up while getting high scores in English.
Not in my class, sunshine.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Just remember, thEn is tEmporal, thAn is compArative.
Thanks MouseThief, I will try to correct my usage in the future. I have been checking myself for there/their for a few years now and I still screw it up (I have to edit most of my posts to fix it). I don't know how my brain hasn't caught on yet.
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Cusanus:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Its all to much. Blame the Australian education system in the 80's and 90's, that let me get away with fucking these all up while getting high scores in English.
Not in my class, sunshine.
NSW, Catholic education system?
Please don't tell me it was just I who went to crappy schools.
Posted by Janine (# 3337) on
:
In the original-series Star Trek books, when a planet of hermaphrodites decided they wanted to join the Federation and started sending their people out into the diplomatic arena and to school at Star Fleet Academy, they struggled to come up with a pronoun for themselves that would work in the heavily Terran-influenced standard/basic languages.
For some reason, the first choice, s/he/it, always drew stifled giggles from any Terran present.
Say it aloud a few times. You'll figure it out.
Wasn't it Madeline L'Engle who called God "El" for a pronoun? I think that could work.
'Course if I start to promote that it'll bother Trin.
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Spiffy you don't know when people aren't being serious do you? Talking like that generates much more amusing reactions.
You are thicker than a mud and molasses pie, aren't you? You're the one pitching a righteous snit fit when I'm quite obviously using my sarcastic font.
Deep breaths, precious. Don't be tizzying yourself into an aneuyrisim on my account.
Regarding gender-neutral pronouns, amongst a certain circle of academics I have the dubious distinction of running with, the gnp of choice is 'em', pluralized as 'ems', and posessive case is 'eir'. As in, "Em shouted, "That book belongs to eir!""
[ 04. February 2007, 22:44: Message edited by: Spiffy da WonderSheep ]
Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Spiffy you don't know when people aren't being serious do you? Talking like that generates much more amusing reactions.
You are thicker than a mud and molasses pie, aren't you? You're the one pitching a righteous snit fit when I'm quite obviously using my sarcastic font.
I dunno, I am mostly water. Maybe if I had more muscle I would be that thick.
Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Wasn't it Madeline L'Engle who called God "El" for a pronoun? I think that could work.
'Course if I start to promote that it'll bother Trin.
"El" as in Spanish for "The" is it, or something else?
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Wasn't it Madeline L'Engle who called God "El" for a pronoun? I think that could work.
'Course if I start to promote that it'll bother Trin.
"El" as in Spanish for "The" is it, or something else?
"El" as in Hebrew for "God".
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on
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I have it on good authority* that, in the Gallilean dialect of Aramaic that Jesus spoke, the word for God was "En". Hence we get:
"Jay" - she speaks "Naust" - with the voice of "En" - God.
Isn't it wonderful how a knowldege of etymology can help illuminate our little discussions?
* = I just made it up
Posted by Pure as the Driven Yellow Snow (# 9397) on
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
"El" as in Hebrew for "God".
Oh dear. People have been telling me to go to 'El for years. I've totally misunderstood them...
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pure as the Driven Yellow Snow:
Oh dear. People have been telling me to go to 'El for years. I've totally misunderstood them...
It's worth a visit, but quite a chilly place.
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
Why not?
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the bitch,
She is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are kitch,
She hath loosed the fateful lightening of her terrible swift witch,
Her truth is marching on!
This one scans
And it's so Shiply! First line obviously refers to our own dear Erin, the second has a reference to Gadgets for God, and the third one mentions Mertseger. I suggest we adopt this as an anthem for Shipmeets.
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
You're the one pitching a righteous snit fit when I'm quite obviously using my sarcastic font.
Perhaps you need to increase font size and bolding, cos it wasn't that obvious Spif...
-------------------------
And Gordon, the 10Cs aren't 10 examples of what shouldn't be said on the Ship. As #7 was already covered by my post, that leaves 9 - and out of the 9, the only one containing a 'this shouldn't be posted on the Ship' really is advertising. Even that can be posted on the Ship though, as long as you pay first. So it's more of a 'this shouldn't be posted on the Ship unless you've paid Simon off'.
Want to try again?
Sarkycow
Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on
:
I really like Mertsengers adaption of the lords prayer.
Id get shot if i used that in church wouldnt I?
i love the move to more feminine ideas in the body of the prayer too rather than just a change of name.
I remember at uni reading somewhere that we (at the time) focus a lot on "money sex and power" as the big sins to avoid, and how to avoid them, and theat they were (stereotypically ) male temptations. Low self esteem, low body image, etc would be more feminine pitfalls.
Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
"Mysterious Ways" is one of the Best. Songs. Ever. about the Spirit.
Especially in the context of this thread ... look at the photography accompanyinmg the song in the album liner notes. "She" is a man in drag.
FF
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
And Gordon, the 10Cs aren't 10 examples of what shouldn't be said on the Ship. As #7 was already covered by my post, that leaves 9 - and out of the 9, the only one containing a 'this shouldn't be posted on the Ship' really is advertising. Even that can be posted on the Ship though, as long as you pay first. So it's more of a 'this shouldn't be posted on the Ship unless you've paid Simon off'.
Want to try again?
Sarkycow
Sarky, sometimes you seem too nice or too obtuse to be a real Hellhost.
I, however, am twisted enough in soul that I can think of multiple infractions of each of the 10Cs that shouldn't be posted on the Ship, and a number of unwritten rules that would completely snarl up the Ship's way of working if they were to be articulated.
Anyway, 2 examples.
You shouldn't post stuff that is disrespectful of Hosts and their rulings. If someone goes to a Heaven thread and teslls a Host that a ruling they just made demonstrates a failure of intelligence and a commitment to fluffiness that helps explain why they are a heaven host, they will be posting something they shouldn't have done (Commandment 6).
More seriously, if you break commandment 10 and adopt multiple sockpuppets, you certainly shouldn't then post under those sockpuppet names asking for support and sympathy in all Saints. The registering of sockpuppets breaks the commandment, the posting asking for support happened last year and caused grief.
"Things that shouldn't be posted on the Ship" has all sorts of potential for a Heaven or Circus thread, Sarky. I'm glad, if a bit surprised, to see that you want to give it a run in Hell, but you're the boss eh.
[ 05. February 2007, 18:52: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Regarding gender-neutral pronouns, amongst a certain circle of academics I have the dubious distinction of running with, the gnp of choice is 'em', pluralized as 'ems', and posessive case is 'eir'. As in, "Em shouted, "That book belongs to eir!""
English already has a gender neutral singular pronoun: they. KJV uses, Jane Austen uses, loads of people today use it.
The analytic philosophers I sometimes play with often tend to use so-called gender neutral she, as a bit of linguistic affirmative action. (As in, So, what could a physicalist say in reaction to Blah's objections? She could take fault with Doo, but then ...)
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Regarding gender-neutral pronouns, amongst a certain circle of academics I have the dubious distinction of running with, the gnp of choice is 'em', pluralized as 'ems', and posessive case is 'eir'. As in, "Em shouted, "That book belongs to eir!""
English already has a gender neutral singular pronoun: they. KJV uses, Jane Austen uses, loads of people today use it. [/i])
Dude, this system was invented by Women's Studies majors. Do not argue with the WS majors, because they are batshit insane.
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
You shouldn't post stuff that is disrespectful of Hosts and their rulings. If someone goes to a Heaven thread and teslls a Host that a ruling they just made demonstrates a failure of intelligence and a commitment to fluffiness that helps explain why they are a heaven host, they will be posting something they shouldn't have done (Commandment 6).
Congratulations on turning a positive comment about values/attitudes and behaviour into a negative comment regarding behaviour only.
The 6th Commandment reads:
quote:
Respect the Ship's crew
If you disagree with a member of the Ship's crew (in their official capacity), raise the issue in the Styx, our board for in-house stuff. Personal attacks on hosts, admins and editors for their official actions will be treated as an attempt to disrupt the Ship itself.
There's no 'you shouldn't post this' said here. instead there is a positive value - respect the H&As (and editors!) when they post in their official capacity, and if you have a disagreement or a problem with what they have said, then take it to the Styx. It's not that you shouldn't disagree with an official ruling, but that you should do so in an appropriate forum.
quote:
More seriously, if you break commandment 10 and adopt multiple sockpuppets, you certainly shouldn't then post under those sockpuppet names asking for support and sympathy in all Saints. The registering of sockpuppets breaks the commandment, the posting asking for support happened last year and caused grief.
It's not that you shouldn't post in AS using sockpuppets and asking for support, it's that sockpuppets aren't allowed. So the 'should' in this case isn't about posting, but about registering more than one identity.
In last year's kerfuffle, the shipmate wasn't booted for saying things s/he shouldn't, but for registering multiple identities.
Better luck next time Gordon. And if you truly wish to play this as a game, you know where to go. Away.
Sarkycow
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
:
Ah Sarky. You do try hard.
Posted by CrookedCucumber (# 10792) on
:
I'd like to make it clear that, when I refer to God as `She', I do do it to irritate people like the one who make the OP.
In fact, I think She put me on earth specifically to irritate people like that.
Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on
:
I go through phases of using She or alternating She/He when teaching/writing. I find that when Im reading work with she or that alternates initially im conscious of it, and then I get used to it which I think is very very healthy. I would rather my students got used to hearing both so its **not** unusual.
I dont do it to irritate.
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Ah Sarky. You do try hard.
How ironic to hear that coming from a pipsqueak who seems to suffer from a continuous need to make threads be about himself - right after she refuted you thoroughly without her even breaking a sweat. You're one of those special people who not only doesn't appear to know what they're talking about, you don't seem to know yourself either.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Gordon, Such a non-submissive attitude too towards authority*.
-peanut gallery
*you know the verses...and I trust what I mean here.
Are you one of those "I only respect authority if they are of a certain theological persuasion? Maybe you don't pay your taxes...do you? Or maybe the librarian...or your landlord...or anybody else who is not Sydney Anglican. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
[eta: SA stuff. thx.]
[ 06. February 2007, 18:48: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by Gordon Cheng (# 8895) on
:
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Yes, repent, Gordon, repent!
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
I'd like to make it clear that, when I refer to God as `She', I do do it to irritate people like the one who make the OP.
I do it to remind myself that God is not male, and to irritate sexist pricks.
I remember a Philosophy of Religion class I took as an undergrad, where the prof decided to refer to God as "He" and "She" on alternating weeks. I made sure to set him straight if he said "He" on a "She" week, mostly because it made the fundamentalists so irate.
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
I'd like to make it clear that, when I refer to God as `She', I do do it to irritate people like the one who make the OP.
I do it to remind myself that God is not male, and to irritate sexist pricks.
I remember a Philosophy of Religion class I took as an undergrad, where the prof decided to refer to God as "He" and "She" on alternating weeks. I made sure to set him straight if he said "He" on a "She" week, mostly because it made the fundamentalists so irate.
And that in and of itself is a bloody good reason
Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on
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hehe - as I teach philosophy of religion I think I might take up that challenge too...
What a fab idea
Posted by Trin (# 12100) on
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quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
I'd like to make it clear that, when I refer to God as `She', I do do it to irritate people like the one who make the OP.
In fact, I think She put me on earth specifically to irritate people like that.
Yes! Thankyou! I win! She put me here to get irritated about it. Good old mother nature! - I mean God! sorry - God.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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Because yeah, anyone who calls God differently than you must not be a Christian. Have you said "I Thought This Was a Christian Website" yet?
Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on
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Up on the Ausblog in All Saints, magnum mysterium thinks a pumpkin to be quote:
the vegetable of Satan herself
(My bold). Now there's inclusive language I can live with
Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on
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You may say you do, FD, but I'm sure I couldn't possibly comment.
Posted by Calindreams (# 9147) on
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I do have some sympathy with the OP. I used to occasionally visit an MCC where they used the feminine pronoun for God. They sang from Mission Praise and every time we got to something like 'He is Lord' quite a number of the congregation would sing 'She' loudly, smirk and then look round to see if everyone else thought it was funny.
It really put me off just enjoying the worship. Shame really, because I always wanted to find a place of worship where the language of worship was much more flexible, but this just seemed like a PC exercise.
The MCC I go to now sing songs which do encompass different ways of referring to God without having to change songs that are already written. Whoever writes the liturgy each week will use different language according to what they feel comfortable with.
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
I'd like to make it clear that, when I refer to God as `She', I do do it to irritate people like the one who make the OP.
In fact, I think She put me on earth specifically to irritate people like that.
Yes! Thankyou! I win! She put me here to get irritated about it. Good old mother nature! - I mean God! sorry - God.
Issues. Definitely issues.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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It amuses me how much the foolish assumptions of the OP put me off a position I have sympathy for, actually. I personally prefer to call God 'he' as I call all beings whose sex I do not know. Personally, I doubt God has genitals.
I have no trouble referring to God as the female when it's appropriate (songs, prayers, talking about female aspects of God, etc.) but I have left one church partially because they asked (in the bulletin) us not to ever refer to God as he. Thusly, no songs were sung that refer to God with a gender pronoun.
Now that was too much.
Posted by Tembrina2 (# 12300) on
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When I was in high school and college I militantly insistent on using gender inclusive language for pretty much everything--any kind of writing, study, politics, religion, etc--and I think it was a direct reaction to the very real exclusion women encounter on a daily basis.
At a certain point, I stopped with this insistence. (Although it does mean that I've also given up lots of fun opportunities to annoy people for the sheer hell of it. Which does have a certain appeal, I'll admit ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
). I see G-d as very much female and as male, but also, way, way beyond any of expectations or dreams or categorizations. Sometimes, I think, refering G-d as exclusively "she" cuts down on this transcendent mystery. Its as if we are so wrapped up in our own rea struggles with being women (or men) in our society, that we forget that G-d surpasses this, forgetting that we're created in G-d's image and not the other way around.
So, now, I'm comfortable with God as both male and female. Recently I was at a mass in Mexico where the priest (Jesuit of course...) opened the service with a prayer to "MamaPapa Dios" and then proceded with the traditional liturgy. This seemed about perfect to me--the recognition of both God's maternal and paternal love, and then continuing with beautiful old prayers and new songs, most of which referred to God as He.
I guess one of the other things that annoys me about inclusive language is how horribly awkward it can be at times...I don't necessarily have theological objections to it, as much as aesthetic objections...When G-d is referred to as She in a beautiful poem, prayer, or song, its great. But so often, I just absolutly cringe. My hypersensitivity to language distracts me from the actual message that someone is trying to communicate--like the earlier post about Star Trek crew members pronouncing "she/he/it" phonetically.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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At my church we each say the lord's prayer after communion and as we say it seperately, the pastor says it into the microphone. We ask all our pastors to use the church version of the prayer which begins "Father and Mother God,..."
I like it, but I still use the traditional words.
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Tembrina2:
So, now, I'm comfortable with God as both male and female.
[sings] Our God is a hermaphrodite God [/sings].
I'm only comfortable with the idea that God is neither male nor female.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
They sang from Mission Praise
Now that is a dark confession
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
I have major issues with these words even though I try and do them right. I will never have good grammar until FireFox has a decent grammar checking plugin.
[pedant]
that should be "try to do them right."
[/pedant]
Not that I noticed or anything...
Posted by Liverpool fan (# 11424) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
I remember at uni reading somewhere that we (at the time) focus a lot on "money sex and power" as the big sins to avoid, and how to avoid them, and theat they were (stereotypically ) male temptations. Low self esteem, low body image, etc would be more feminine pitfalls.
I wish I had to avoid these supposed male tempations, instead of the supposed female ones.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Anyway, a few points:
This thread is a wind up thread that people have fallen for.
Some people do have their agendas which they like to put forward at any opportunity. I am probably guilty of the same.
U2's song is indeed very good and it should be used in Mass (more often).
Posted by Trin (# 12100) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
This thread is a wind up thread that people have fallen for.
Actually no! I started it more or less believing I was right (ie if people were honest they mostly thought of God as male). I've learned a lot about how varied Christians and their different takes on things can be since joining the ship.
Posted by Liverpool fan (# 11424) on
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Fair enough.
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