Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
A whole signature of pages just fell out of my copy; I've had it for a month and taken good care of it! Isn't that special? $60 I paid for that book!
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I've already fired off a complaint.[/QB]
quote:I occasionally use a "daily office lite" such as the Daily Devotions for Individuals and Families in the USA BCP 1979, but I stick with the full selection of psalms from a regular psalter distribution, like the seven-week or monthly BCP ones or a monastic one. It's important to me to keep the psalms as the core of the office, even if what surrounds the psalms gets pared away. These short offices are a great way to pray the psalter while traveling: just take a BCP along.
Originally posted by Pisco Sours:
So where do the Daily Devotions fit in to all this? Are they sort of "Daily Office Lites"? Do you ever recite them, or are full-strength Offices really the only way to go?
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Long live the Daily Office thread! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:It's perfectly to alright to use whatever is comfortable and manageable for you. Some people have the leisure and opportunity to say whatever Daily Offices are appointed by their church or faith community in their entirety. Others find some form of abbreviation either necessary or desirable. Whatever you do it's always better to offer up some prayer, even if it's only brief, than none at all.
So where do the Daily Devotions fit in to all this? Are they sort of "Daily Office Lites"? Do you ever recite them, or are full-strength Offices really the only way to go?
quote:Safely saved on the hard drives of everyone who wants to be sure they can consult it in perpetuity, you mean?
Originally posted by Thurible:
Could a word be had in the Host/Admin forum to ensure that the thread is actually safe? It would be a shame if were to join the GIN.
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)
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quote:The only one that springs immediately to mind is replacing that awful version of the Nunc Dimittis antiphon in night prayer. Whatever happened to "that awake we may watch with Christ, and asleep we may rest in peace"?
Originally posted by Divine Office:
How do people think that the current edition of the RC Liturgy of the Hours in English ought to be revised when the Church gets round to it?
quote:If the LotH is ever to increase in use among lay people, and especially in parish services in church, it's going to have to be made a single affordable volume.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
How do people think that the current edition of the RC Liturgy of the Hours in English ought to be revised when the Church gets round to it?
I would make the following suggestions:-
1) Use the revised version of the Grail psalter published in 1983
2) Provide translations of the ancient Office Hymns rather than just selections of ordinary hymns
3) Possibly cut down on the number of volumes needed for the full version. I think that two volumes would suffice, ie one for the Office of Readings and one for the rest of the Hours, rather than the current three volumes in the UK edition and the four in the USA edition, which are pretty expensive if you are buying them all.
what suggestions would other folks make?
quote:I have the 1-volume edition, which does what you pretty much what you want for MP and EP. I know it's OOR is very much abridged, but do you think there'd be much else for me to gain by getting the 4-volume set?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
If the LotH is ever to increase in use among lay people, and especially in parish services in church, it's going to have to be made a single affordable volume.
quote:I know. But the edition authorized for the USA, Canada, etc., has them. They're printed in the wrong position, before the repetition of each psalm's antiphon. Bizarre. Many users are thus saying the antiphon, psalm, Gloria Patri, psalm-prayer, and antiphon in that order. Bizarre, as I said.
Originally posted by Thurible:
Psalm prayers? In the Divine Office? Hmm. Not in the British edition.
quote:I think one good move would be to provide the Prayer Book versions of the Gospel Canticles, at least as alternatives to the modern ones, and maybe seek better translations of some of the Collects - with Anglican help if necessary. Most of the collects for lesser holy days (or memorias if you want to call them that) in 'Exciting Holiness' are superb and usually say something worthwhile and meaningful about the Saint being celebrated.
How do people think that the current edition of the RC Liturgy of the Hours in English ought to be revised when the Church gets round to it?
quote:That sounds like a good idea. I've never felt that the collects in the Mass and the LOH were all that good. My understanding is that they are more a kind of paraphrase of the Latin orginals than a direct translation.
I think one good move would be to provide the Prayer Book versions of the Gospel Canticles, at least as alternatives to the modern ones, and maybe seek better translations of some of the Collects - with Anglican help if necessary. Most of the collects for lesser holy days (or memorias if you want to call them that) in 'Exciting Holiness' are superb and usually say something worthwhile and meaningful about the Saint being celebrated.
quote:The Latin originals aren't wonderful in terms of how many of us understand a Collect nowadays. I've got Tridentine Missals and I can tell you that translated directly into English, many of them are pithy and terse to say the least. As a properly developed form of liturgical prayer the Collect didn't really begin to flourish until the 16th and 17th centuries. Those in Cranmer's 1549 were better than the medieval ones and they were inproved further in 1552. At the 1662 revision further improvements were made, a trend which continued down to 1928. Liturgical writing went through a bad phase in the 1970's and 1980's although in recent years the art of writing good (but modern) liturgical prose has been regained.
That sounds like a good idea. I've never felt that the collects in the Mass and the LOH were all that good. My understanding is that they are more a kind of paraphrase of the Latin orginals than a direct translation.
quote:What do folks think about the traditional language collects in the ECUSA 1979 BCP and the RC
The Latin originals aren't wonderful in terms of how many of us understand a Collect nowadays. I've got Tridentine Missals and I can tell you that translated directly into English, many of them are pithy and terse to say the least. As a properly developed form of liturgical prayer the Collect didn't really begin to flourish until the 16th and 17th centuries. Those in Cranmer's 1549 were better than the medieval ones and they were inproved further in 1552. At the 1662 revision further improvements were made, a trend which continued down to 1928. Liturgical writing went through a bad phase in the 1970's and 1980's although in recent years the art of writing good (but modern) liturgical prose has been regained.
quote:That's right. I have a copy of the book.
A few months ago, I saw several scans from the reprint of The English Office on eBay. The book has a section with all the Psalms. The Psalm antiphons are in a separate section just before the Psalms.
quote:I purchased a copy of the English Office and it's good up to a point. It certainly misses something though by not being bound with either the lessons of the 1922 lectionary (as some Prayer Books used to be) or even a straightforward Bible. Coverdale's majestic Psalms are certainly included but a better typeface (such as that in Cambridge "black 'n red" Prayer Books) could have been used for them.
This is addressed to the inmates here who purchased the Canterbury Press reprint of The English Office.
From the limboed daily offices thread I learn that, lamentably, neither the lections nor a lectionary is included in the volume.
But, what I most want to know: Are the Psalms included? Perhaps this is a dumb question, for surely they must be, but I want to be sure.
quote:Well done! Congratulations. Howard Galley did a stellar job on that enrichment of, um, the prayer book office: ferial and proper antiphons, suggested laudate psalms at Matins, Great Paschal Vespers, hymn suggestions, and much more--and laid out in a way that is both recognizable to BCP users and avoids becoming a two-ton brick of a book.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Just received the copy of Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office which I won on eBay this morning.
It's in almost mint condition and looks like a fantastic book which I am looking forward to using.
I'm sure many people would appreciate a reprint.
quote:Maybe the Baby Jesus will cry if you're not saying the full fourfold office but cheating by using 119 as your main daily psalmody?
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
the extra should come in at less than 40. Can you tell that I'm a bit annoyed?
quote:Is this still in print? It's been mentioned a couple of times, and I've never been able to find it.
Originally posted by FCB:
the separate volume for the Office of Readings published by the Daughters of St. Paul
quote:Certainly not.
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:Maybe the Baby Jesus will cry if you're not saying the full fourfold office but cheating by using 119 as your main daily psalmody?
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
the extra should come in at less than 40. Can you tell that I'm a bit annoyed?
quote:ooOoOo... congratulations. Did you win the version with propers from Lesser Feasts and Fasts and the patristic lessons? I heard a version of the PBO even comes with office hymns from the Hymnal 1984.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Just received the copy of Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office which I won on eBay this morning.
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:Hymnal 1982, actually,
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:ooOoOo... congratulations. Did you win the version with propers from Lesser Feasts and Fasts and the patristic lessons? I heard a version of the PBO even comes with office hymns from the Hymnal 1984.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Just received the copy of Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office which I won on eBay this morning.
DIVINE OFFICE
but the edition I have has suggestions from it. For example, for First Evensong of the First Sunday in Lent, the suggested hymn is![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:I guess I need to start doing to OoRs, then...
Originally posted by FCB:
...or, if you don't care about doing the Office of Readings, simply use Christian Prayer.
[*]I'm not sure why we need longer reading. The Office of Readings provides a pretty big chunk of scripture each day.
quote:This is exactly what I noticed last week when a priest who doesn't usually joined the rosary group for our rosary. At the end of each decade he'd realise halfway through "as it was" bit that he needed to go off autopilot and stumble while the rest of us said the trad one.
[*]I agree completely that we should go back to the traditional translation of the Gloria Patri. As it is now, the laity mainly know the traditional one, and the clergy know the new one. It's quite confusing.
quote:Hmmm. . . that I do not know. If it's not, you might pick it up from abe.com.
Originally posted by Thurible:
Is this still in print? It's been mentioned a couple of times, and I've never been able to find it.
quote:I think I have the first edition from 1980.
ooOoOo... congratulations. Did you win the version with propers from Lesser Feasts and Fasts and the patristic lessons? I heard a version of the PBO even comes with office hymns from the Hymnal 1984.
quote:I used to have a copy of this a few years ago. I well remember that some of the pages were missing from it when I bought it! Unfortunately, I did not discover this until several weeks later, by which time I had thrown away the receipt, so could not replace it! I think I eventually donated it to the library of my local RC Church, with a note in the front warning about the missing pages!!
the separate volume for the Office of Readings published by the Daughters of St. Paul
quote:Yes. My copy has this "Preface to the Second Edition" on p. vi:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Did this second edition also have additional collects for minor feasts? If so, I'll have to scour the web looking for a copy, for which I would probably pay handsomely!!!!!
quote:Thanks Silent Acolyte - and you're looking lovely as ever!
Adrian1, it is delightful to rub avatars with you again.
So this reprint is not a facsimile, but has been reset, with appalling choice of type face? Maybe I can do without it.
quote:Scott, if you ever come across anyone who has a copy of the second edition for sale, please let me know!!!
Yes. My copy has this "Preface to the Second Edition" on p. vi:
In response to a number of requests, this edition includes the collects for the Lesser Feasts, together with appropriate antiphons for use on such occasions. A selection of collects for weekdays in the seasons of Lent and Easter has also been added.
H.E.G. [Howard E. Galley]
12 September 1987
The Memorial of John Henry Hobart
quote:A most rare and excellent book - if only this is made available again! (ok but with the grail psalms please.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
In the meantime, I will supplement my pristine copy of the first edition with Office Hymns and additional collects and antiphons from that other rare work, the 1975 Book of Prayer from St John's Abbey, Collegeville.
quote:They have indeed, but their publishing company's printers and binders leave much to be desired. A whole signature of pages just fell out of my copy; I've had it for a month and taken good care of it! Isn't that special? $60 I paid for that book!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Scott, who thinks the Order of Saint Helena have helped the cause with their excellent Personal Edition of the St Helena Breviary.
I've already fired off a complaint.quote:I bet they're kicking themselves for printing the new edition five minutes before the RCC abolished - oops, sorry, transferred - the feasts of Epiphany, Ascension and Corpus Christi.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I see that the UK edition of the RC Divine Office in three volumes has just been reprinted by HarperCollins.
I believe that it has an updated liturgical calendar, with the addition of the new feasts which have been introduced in recent years.
quote:I hope you have that copy repaired soon. My copy arrived on Saturday. Took a long while for Amazon to send it over. It is a very handsome volume and I imagine American users will appreciate the typeset recalling the feel of the prayer book.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
A whole signature of pages just fell out of my copy; I've had it for a month and taken good care of it! Isn't that special? $60 I paid for that book!
[/QB]
quote:You can say that again. Not only did I get the OSH, I also bought the Year 2 Part 2 Daily Office (RSV) that Church Publishing puts out. (Why do they not have a NRSV set?) In both cases, the binding is just shoddy.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Church Publishing is rather notorious for bad bindings, although their BCPs and Hymnals are very sturdily bound. The OSH breviary seems to be, but it looks like the sewing didn't always "take." I took the opportunity to complain about the typos as well. Couldn't hurt.
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quote:The Contemporary Office Book is NRSV...both years in one volume. I can't make any promises about the binding quality. The one we have in our sacristy seems OK, but I use a hardcover BCP to lead the office; it has our extra twiddly bits pasted in (Angelus and Regina caeli).
Originally posted by Pisco Sours:
You can say that again. Not only did I get the OSH, I also bought the Year 2 Part 2 Daily Office (RSV) that Church Publishing puts out. (Why do they not have a NRSV set?) In both cases, the binding is just shoddy.
quote:Received it this morning. It is in very good condition and contains all the Hours except Mattins, and largely follows the pre-Vatican II Roman calendar. Unlike, for example, The English Office, it is completely self-contained and no other books such as bibles and lectionaries are required to use it. It is also less bulky than, for example, The Anglican Breviary.
I've just ordered a copy of the 1961 edition of The Hours of Prayer from Lauds to Compline Inclusive, which was at one time the SSJE office book and was largely compiled from the Sarum breviary by a Father Trenholme. I believe the first edition was published in 1911.
quote:I note that Canterbury Press in Norwich are about to publish a book entitled Celebrating Sunday Evening Prayer, which is a resource for RC churches wishing to introduce regular Sunday vespers.
Does anyone have experience of organising, say, a weekly reading of Vespers in their local church? I'm quite tempted to suggest this to my parish priest and would gladly organise it. Did you find that people were interested? Did you incorporate music or chant into the office
quote:This book is proving highly exasperating. Church Publishing doesn't yet seem to have shaken off its habit of releasing books that aren't ready. Proofreading appears to be highly inadequate, as major shortcomings are missed. Here's what I've found so far, major and minor:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Users of St Helena Breviary, Personal Edition will have to scribble in the Antiphons on Magnificat and Benedictus for the feasts of the apostles.
The text for Benedictus for St James is:
Anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, for Jesus came to serve and not be served.
And for Magnificat:
King Herod started persecuting certain members of the church. He beheaded James, the brother of John.
quote:I can't find an example, at the moment. Could you point to one?
Originally posted by GreyFace:
On a slightly different tack, please can somebody explain to this idiot what he's supposed to do at the points in CCP where you come to the funny R - presumably for Refrain?
I plead a misspent youth as a cause of my ignorance.
quote:I've tended to find that, if people turn up and participate, then people will feel more able to turn up and participate. But even one person making the effort may be the impetus needed for another to come and join in.
Originally posted by Craigmaddie:
Has anybody found a general interest in the Liturgy of the Hours in their churches? I guess that even if I end up alone praying Vespers before the Blessed Sacrament every Sunday I certainly won't be wasting my time....
quote:Done occasional Offices at my church. Once with a short office of evening prayer and then a procession around the worship space, stopping at various stations (e.g. lectern, communion table, main entrance etc) and praying for various ministries of the church (preaching, common life, people who have entered into our community and those who have left). Then there is a tenebrae on Good Friday.
Originally posted by Craigmaddie:
Does anyone have experience of organising, say, a weekly reading of Vespers in their local church? I'm quite tempted to suggest this to my parish priest and would gladly organise it. Did you find that people were interested? Did you incorporate music or chant into the office?
quote:Just to be precise I'm referring to CCP Pocket Edition 2002 (I think, doing this from memory).
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
[QBI can't find an example, at the moment. Could you point to one?[/QB]
quote:At my local RC Church, Lauds is usually recited just before the 10am Mass on Monday to Friday using the small red Shorter Morning and Evening Prayer book.
Has anybody found a general interest in the Liturgy of the Hours in their churches? I guess that even if I end up alone praying Vespers before the Blessed Sacrament every Sunday I certainly won't be wasting my time....
quote:I can't take credit for its success, but in my previous parish I was part of a group that began a daily Evening Prayer on weekdays at 5:30 p.m. The one prompting it and who made it work was our relatively new organist/choirmaster, who approached the project with the attitude of "We're going to do this, because this is part of what the church is for." He wouldn't hear negative comments like "We've tried that," or "You won't get many people."
Originally posted by Divine Office:
However, that was a few years ago, and I don't know if they still do. As far as I know, even my RC diocesan cathedral does not have Morning or Evening Prayer in public at any time.
quote:Thanks for the reply - I can't find any such responses. Just checked again, but I've been using the book although ad-libbing the intercessions for quite some time now and didn't expect I'd missed it.
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
The funny R mark means you insert the (appropriately) selected one of those.
quote:In a bit of a snit, I wrote to ask for a refund and sent them my post above with the errata. They responded by saying they're sending me a replacement copy. If I get to keep the old one, maybe I'll mark all the corrections in red pen and keep using it.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Thank you, Scott and DitzySpike, for pointing out the problems with The Saint Helena Breviary, Personal Edition. They are most unfortunate, because the concept is a laudable attempt at making a monastic breviary useful and flexible for laypeople. I received the book a few weeks ago but haven't really prayed with it. The shorcomings are serious enough that I have decided to return the book. I'm especially leary of having it fall apart on me. I hope Church Publishing will produce a better, second edition in the near future.
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quote:I make it up later, since currently I only sing Morning Prayer on a consistent basis. Sometimes it gets broken up in pieces, depending on what happens. Sometimes it lasts all day!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
So, those of you who pray some form of the Daily Office, Liturgy of the Hours, canonical hours, Opus Dei, Divine Office, diurnal, or breviary:
If you miss an office, do you make it up later, or skip it and pick up again at the current one depending on the time of day?
I generally do the latter but today feel compelled to make up Matins and Diurnum. Haven't prayed anything yet today, and here it is 3:20 p.m. I mainly want to catch up on psalms.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
quote:Like some responders, I'll generally skip the particular office but will try to make up the readings. Sometimes I'll do the evening prayer reading during compline. Other times, I'll double up the next day.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
If you miss an office, do you make it up later, or skip it and pick up again at the current one depending on the time of day?
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quote:Here's the current USA BCP in Latin.
Originally posted by the Pookah:
I'd enjoy working on my Latin; could I use this for private devotions?
quote:As Scott has noted, there are Latin translations of the Prayer Book at justus.anglican.org, which unfortunately seems to be off-line today.
Omnipotens Deus, miserationum omnium Pater, nos indigni famuli tui, tibi ex animo et cum summa demissione gratias agimus ob universam illam beneficentiam, benignitatem et favorem erga nos et omnes homines. Tibi benedicimus ob creationem nostram, conservationem et omnes hujus vitae benedictiones, ante omnia vero ob inaestimabilem amorem tuum in redemptione mundi per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum patefactum; ob gratiae media et spem gloriae. Te autem rogamus supplices ut cunctis a te acceptis beneficiis ita afficiamur, ut animi nostri vere erga te gratia afficiantur, et laudem tuam praedicemus, non labiis dumtaxat, sed etiam moribus ac vivendi ratione nos totos tuo cultui impendentes, atque in sanctitate et justitia per omnem aetatem nostram in conspectu tuo ambulantes, per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum; cui tecum et cum Spiritu Sancto sit omnis honor et gloria in saecula saeculorum.
quote:
Omnipotens Deus, Pater omnium misericordiarum, nos indigni famuli tui humillime et ex animo tibi gratias agimus pro omni bonitate tua et benignitate erga nos et omnes homines: Benedicimus tibi pro creatione et conservatione nostra et omnibus hujusce vitæ bonis; sed maxime pro amore tuo inæstimabili, quo mundum per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum redemisti; insuper pro gratiæ instrumentis et spe gloriæ. Quæ omnia beneficia tua da nobis ita, ut justum est, sentire, ut cordibus vere gratis, laudem tuam non loquendo tantum, sed vivendo annuntiemus; dum servitio tuo penitus devoti, coram te in sanctitate et justitia omnibus diebus vitæ nostræ ambulemus. Per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum, cui tecum, in unitate Spiritus Sancti, sit omnis honor et gloria, per omnia sæcula sæculorum.
quote:Absolutely not. The rest of the Church, with whom I always say the Office, has said that Office on my behalf. If I miss an office without due cause I should be sorry for it. If there is due cause then no harm has been done. Either way, in my view, the best thing to do is to stick to the pattern of the offices and resolve to be as faithful in saying them as possible.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
So, those of you who pray some form of the Daily Office, Liturgy of the Hours, canonical hours, Opus Dei, Divine Office, diurnal, or breviary: depending on the time of day?
quote:What about because the Grail psalms is more interesting poetry with a rhythm structure that makes meanings as well: connecting stressed words and forming tighter parallelism?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
It works well and makes me wonder why so many RC Benedictine houses opted for unpointed Grail with jellyroll...er, Gelineau, tones. Perhaps, like Thomas Merton, they believed English couldn't be done to Latin psalm tones. [/QB]
quote:Oh, stop being so sensible! You're right, of course. That's the difference with the Grail psalter. Interesting, though, that St Gregory's Abbey over here uses the latest Grail version in a two-line configuration. I believe they had to create their own pointed psalter that way. They use a slightly simplified set of modal psalm tones based on the Gregorian ones (not quite so many endings or simple/canticle/solemn versions).
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
What about because the Grail psalms is more interesting poetry with a rhythm structure that makes meanings as well: connecting stressed words and forming tighter parallelism?
The ICEL psalms moved away from the more rigid Grail form. However, the tendency seems to move away from the two-lined pattern of the latin vulgate towards the strophe pattern of the Hebrew.
quote:That is what I do when I use an Eastern Rite Book of the Hours [which, of late, is hardly ever: nor do I use my Western one. I need to get back into this pratice as I have truly noticed the impact of the lack of it].
Originally posted by Divine Office:
My question is is this: can one use an Orthodox Horologion on one's own in the abscence of a priest in the same way as one would use the Western Breviary?
For example, in order to recite Vespers from a Horologion, would you simply recite the psalms and prayers and ignore the detailed rubrics given for the priest?
quote:Said Eucharists are unknown things, not only in Orthodoxy but in the Oriental Orthodox churches I have visited. There is, in Orthodoxy, a "one Liturgy per parish per Sunday" rule, but, at least in Antioch, this is often not the case: in my archdiocese several English-language Liturgies often take place on Sunday evening.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I think that the Eastern Churches are more inclined to favour the Divine Liturgy used in common than in private; for example, I understand that there is no such thing as a "said" eucharist and that the Liturgy is always sung in full on a Sunday, and that there is never more than one celebration.
quote:Not sensible; just agonized over choices
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Oh, stop being so sensible! You're right, of course.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
By the way, you have any idea where I can find the modal but modern melodies of antiphons used at Worth Abbey and St John's Abbey? Will be nice to find A Short Breviary: Benedictine Prayer singable.quote:I have no idea about the rules currently in force, but back in the dark ages, the External Solemnity applied only to the Mass (one solemn and one low, usually) and not to the Divine Office, which would be of the occurring Sunday. One could generally have Solemn Vespers of the feast, if desired; but those bound to the recitation of the Office would have to recite Sunday's Vespers as well.
If one is keeping the Assumption tomorrow as an external solemnity, as well as on Tuesday, does one say First Vespers today?
quote:I've also just obtained a copy of Byzantine Daily Worship by Bishop Raya, which as far as I can tell from my research on the web is one of the most "complete" Eastern Rite prayer manuals ever published.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
My question is is this: can one use an Orthodox Horologion on one's own in the abscence of a priest in the same way as one would use the Western Breviary?
For example, in order to recite Vespers from a Horologion, would you simply recite the psalms and prayers and ignore the detailed rubrics given for the priest?
quote:I would think mixing usages would be perfectly fine in one's personal prayer. I'd be tempted to do so if I could figure out the Orthodox materials.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Or is it better to keep Eastern and Western usages strictly seperate?
quote:I am soooo tempted to send them $40 for their book--- and I still don't have an OSH one! What's the cure for One-More-Breivaryitis?
THE LUTHERAN LITURGICAL PRAYER BROTHERHOOD is a voluntary group of confessional Lutheran Christians which encourages its members to pray, especially making use of the Psalms and Holy Scripture.[snippy] We strive to use the best of western Christian liturgy, prayers, and music—especially the ecclesiastical choral music known commonly as Gregorian Chant—as it has come down to us in our Evangelical Lutheran Church.
quote:I've got a copy of the Brotherhood Prayer Book. Interesting, but I've not used it much because (a) it's too big to carry on the train, and (b) I can't read the plainchant very well (and I've been too lazy to make use of the MP3s that are handily provided of most of the service - see the links towards the bottom of the LLPB home page)
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
In my toddling around the Internet, I think I may have found something that no one else has posted (if someone else has already posted it, whoopsieme).
Lutheran Liturgical Prayer Brotherhood -- from the site:
quote:I am soooo tempted to send them $40 for their book--- and I still don't have an OSH one! What's the cure for One-More-Breivaryitis?
THE LUTHERAN LITURGICAL PRAYER BROTHERHOOD is a voluntary group of confessional Lutheran Christians which encourages its members to pray, especially making use of the Psalms and Holy Scripture.[snippy] We strive to use the best of western Christian liturgy, prayers, and music—especially the ecclesiastical choral music known commonly as Gregorian Chant—as it has come down to us in our Evangelical Lutheran Church.
quote:If you are a good singer, you will not have trouble learning plainchant. The staff is different in that there are only four lines, rather than five; the two clefs (do and fa) are moveable - they appear on different lines of the staff, depending on the music you're singing - so as to keep the notes as much within the borders of the staff as possible; you'll have to learn to decode the notes and groupings of notes (neumes). But it's not difficult.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
My question for this wonderfully knowledgeable group is, How difficult is it to learn plainchant notation? I'm an experienced choral singer and a pretty good sight reader, but plainchant is a different system than I'm used to and is not intuitive for me. Do any of the plainchant breviaries have useful tutorials? If so, which is the most helpful? Or is it preferable to get a separate book to learn plainchant well?
Thanks for your advice.
Blessings,
J.S. Bach
, I came across "kine" or "froward" and had no idea what they meant in today's Canticle: Song of Moses [Deut 32:1-43].quote:Well spotted! Yes, I would think the 43 Bible verses have been re-divided into 58 verses for more even recitation or chanting.
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Due no-doubt to my public [state for you in the UK] skool edukashion
So I went to my 'modern' English Bible, and found that the verses in the MD did not at all correspond to those in my Bible. And in fact, despite it saying Deut 32:1-43, there are actually 58 'verses' marked in the MD. I'm assuming this has to do with some antiphon or similar chanting? Yes? No? Is there a reason verses have been split into more than one 'number'? Has it always been thus?
I'm considering the Saint Helena Breviary: Monastic Edition, but it looks absolutely huge from the photos. Does anyone know of another noted breviary using modern English, either already published or in the works?
quote:I have a copy of the chant book that goes with the MDR. I've written before to ask whether they might publish the chant volume, and they said if there's enough interest in it. I said I was expressing my interest. I inquired later, and they were in the process of moving from Peekskill to Greenwich, NY, and I got a slightly snippy reply that "I'm not going to push the nuns to get the chant book project published while we're in the process of moving." They've long since moved, but I don't think the chant book is any more of a priority. Let us know if you find out anything new!
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Here's something sort of interesting, though, which does seem to be in modern language. And which also has at least some music included with it, it says: The Monastic Diurnal Revised, from the Community of St. Mary in New York.
There's a phone # there, anyway, so I suppose you could always call and ask....
quote:By any chance, do you know if the monks ever use this book as their Psalter during the offices? I suppose it would have to be read by a lector.
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
Time to bump up this thread !
I`ve only been away since Saturday and it has slipped to page 2
On holiday we visited the monastery island at Caldey, and in their shop they have a book, written by one of the monks, which contains the Psalms re-written in haiku form, which I thought was novel..............
quote:Shades of Dame Veronica from In This House of Brede.
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
.... a book, written by one of the monks, which contains the Psalms re-written in haiku form, ....
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quote:And many happy returns
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Happy birthday to me!
Happy birthday to me!
I got a St. Helena Breviary,
Happy birthday to me!
quote:Happy Birthday and Happy Praying with the new Breviary !
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Happy birthday to me!
Happy birthday to me!
I got a St. Helena Breviary,
Happy birthday to me!
quote:This community uses A Monastic Breviary (OHC) as its official office book but is working on compiling its own as well:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The Monastic Breviary is still used by the Order of the Holy Cross houses in New York and in South Africa. The other houses in Santa Barbara and (I think) Bay Area shares the Daily Office liturgy with the New Camaldoli Congregation in Big Sur.
quote:This community's project to produce a new office book sounds very interesting. Hopefully it will be available for purchase when it is eventually printed. I note that they intend to use the revised version of the Grail psalter, as does Benedictine Daily Prayer.
This community uses A Monastic Breviary (OHC) as its official office book but is working on compiling its own as well:
http://www.holythoughts.org/
(Community of St Luke - Benedictine)
quote:Saint Meinrad Archabbey's oblate director has announced to oblates that we'll be getting a new office book with a four-week psalter. Wonder whether that will use the same psalter distribution as the monks use. In any case, it'll be much better, I'm sure, than our one-week bare-bones office in the oblate manual. Hope it'll be available for sale; I'll update the group about it.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
This community's project to produce a new office book sounds very interesting. Hopefully it will be available for purchase when it is eventually printed. I note that they intend to use the revised version of the Grail psalter, as does Benedictine Daily Prayer.
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quote:Yes, about that (I asked this on Via Media, and got some help, but also further confusion):
Originally posted by Divine Office:
It is also less bulky than, for example, The Anglican Breviary.
quote:I'm very glad I have an Anglican Breviary (two, actually: one to use and one to keep nice and eventually use), but I can't quite commit myself to daily praying of its office. It takes a lot of figuring out (although there's lots of online help for that) and takes a lot of time to pray. It also uses an old calendar, and I've decided I can commit only to praying according to the current calendar. Gotta have some criteria for narrowing the choices.
Originally posted by liturgyqueen:
quote:Yes, about that (I asked this on Via Media, and got some help, but also further confusion):
Originally posted by Divine Office:
It is also less bulky than, for example, The Anglican Breviary.
What are people's thoughts on the Anglican Breviary? It's a considerable investment and involves asking the nice people at the Anglican Book Centre to make a special order, and I'd like to be sure. Currently, I use the BCP Canada 1959.
quote:I couldn't have put it better myself!!!
I should also note that it is marvelous on a relaxing day off, with no time pressures, to pull out the Anglican Breviary and immerse oneself in praying the full Matins and Lauds. As a special offering to God and a time of enjoyment of a beautiful book.
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quote:Right. And I just realized I should certainly know a Benedictine office, since I'm a Benedictine oblate and have a copy of the Rule of St. Benedict.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Isn't the Franciscan rite identical with the secular rite ? lauds beginning with psalms 93 and 100 for example--while the monastic rite is a separate, somewhat more rational construct ?
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Looks like the New Grail Psalter is becoming the OSB-prefered text. I wish someone would bring back the ICEL Liturgical Psalter from the dead. It gets me through the psalms in almost half the time normally taken.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
I snigger because this is true! St Meinrad Archabbey's oblate manual uses the ICEL psalter in its one-week office for oblates, probably to end-run the copyright trouble that using the Grail psalms would pose. quote:On p. vii in the main text:
...[T]he Grail version...[is an attempt] to reproduce in English the stress-patterns of Hebrew poetry, whether two or three or four stresses to the half-verse...Aside from the insistence of the frequently recurring stress, a monotonous effect occurs in reading aloud because of the brevity of the lines. The Hebrew ear seems to have found an alternation of three- and two-stress lines solemn and elegiac. The English ear demands a longer line--four stresses, at least, and preferably five.
quote:
On the *continuum* which ranges from utilitarian, unstructured speech at one extreme, to strict metrical composition on the other, the Prayer Book Psalter must be characterized as prose rather than verse. Unlike the Hebrew text, there are no dominant metrical patterns. The lines are of varying length and there is a great variety of rhythms. However, whether by instinct or design, the Prayer Book Psalter is marked by recurrent rhythmic patterns at the mid-verse pauses and at the ends of verses (including, but not limited to, the classical *cursus*), which are of great assistance in reading, and which render it singable, both to plainsong and to Anglican chant, and also to new varieties of chant-forms now being developed.
quote:It's fantastic site. Sadly not being updated now
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Woah. When I went looking for references to the ICEL psalter, I found this page, with more psalter schemas than you can shake a stick at.
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quote:Theo Keller updated parts of it as late as June 2006. He's wonderful to correspond with, if you have new information or want to discuss what's there. Check here for the e-mail address.
Originally posted by RCD:
quote:It's fantastic site. Sadly not being updated now
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Woah. When I went looking for references to the ICEL psalter, I found this page, with more psalter schemas than you can shake a stick at.
quote:I think I have. But I work in a home office, so I have some flexibility. I probably haven't done it 100 percent, but close to that once or twice.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Has anybody actually managed to make it through a full two-week cycle of the St. Helena Breviary without variation? It seems like way too much for working folk!
quote:'Spect the religious of the OSH have. I recall reading some obscure Lay Association of the Faithful's Rule of Life (I spend a lot of time Googling such things, because I am odd) which had their members reading the entire psalter in one week (Morning, Evening, and Compline) with the majority of the psalms at Morning. IIRC, they said MP should take an hour and a half at the minimum, more rightly two to 2.5 hours.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Has anybody actually managed to make it through a full two-week cycle of the St. Helena Breviary without variation? It seems like way too much for working folk!
quote:Sorry for the double-post, but I just checked Amazon and they say that the combo versions are now available, but still give the release date of All Hallows' Eve. The last time I tried to order something before the official release date (the Lutheran Service Book), I received it within 24 hours. Now, to choose the cover material and the amount of money I want to spend!
Originally posted by Martin L:
When the new BCP/NRSV versions come out, I may just go to that.
quote:Powells.com says it was published August 06, but that all copies are backordered. I just called the main store and they told me they cannot give an ETA, although they think they're just waiting for stock from the publisher. I've gone ahead and ordered one (One-More-Breviary-Syndrome strikes again), I'll holler when they tell me to pick it up.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Warning breviary fanatics! Read with caution.
quote:Sorry for the double-post, but I just checked Amazon and they say that the combo versions are now available, but still give the release date of All Hallows' Eve.
Originally posted by Martin L:
When the new BCP/NRSV versions come out, I may just go to that.
quote:I don't want to give the impression I am disciplined with this at all. I probably did the full two-week OSH cycle while on vacation one year.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Scott, you're fortunate to be in a circumstance of making your own hours. As Spiffy's post testifies, it seems like most breviaries tend to put the emphasis on the morning office and taper off at night. For those who must rise early and get off to work, this is impractical (although young people may agree with me while older ones may disagree!)
quote:Compline has invariable texts because it is ideally said from memory. The Sarum use, however does provide a few hymns. Off memory there's Cultor Dei, 'Servant of God, remember'. The sequences sung at Mass are also used during compline IIRC on some days. Check out the English Hymnal .
Originally posted by RCD:
I was trying to find some expanded hymns for Compline, preferably from an early period (so excluding hymns from the 1800-present unless they are English versions of older texts). The usual ones I use, from the RC Office, are 'Te lucis ante terminum' and 'Christe qui splendor et dies' (speaking of which does anyone know a nice CHANT for this?)
quote:Could you PM me with a link to the Amazon listing for the LSB? I can't find it on there at the moment.
Originally posted by Martin L:
The last time I tried to order something before the official release date (the Lutheran Service Book), I received it within 24 hours.
quote:Oh, this may have confused others as well, so I apologize! I got my copy of LSB straight from the source-- Concordia Publishing. I am geographically rather close to them, so it would not take long to ship. Even still, I probably paid $8 American for shipping (which is probably about double what it could have been shipped at). It still appears to be unavailable from Amazon.
Originally posted by John H:
quote:Could you PM me with a link to the Amazon listing for the LSB? I can't find it on there at the moment.
Originally posted by Martin L:
The last time I tried to order something before the official release date (the Lutheran Service Book), I received it within 24 hours.
Thanks!
quote:I don't know how common this is in the old country, but around here it may be possible for a synod who was placing a large-ish order to negotiate a deal either on shipping or on the price of the item itself. If you are part of the ILC, the LCMS and CPH may be able to offer a good deal to its 'little sister' church. (Really I have no idea whether they could or couldn't, but such things do happen around here occasionally!)
Originally posted by John H:
Our synod will probably put in a bulk order for the LSB, but this is likely to take some time. (We'll probably take delivery just as work commences on the next revision...)
quote:Yes, CPH were very good about offering a "bulk" discount on a couple of dozen copies of their recent edition of the Book of Concord. Plus we have members at US military bases so we occasionally use them as the postal destination as that saves a lot of money.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:I don't know how common this is in the old country, but around here it may be possible for a synod who was placing a large-ish order to negotiate a deal either on shipping or on the price of the item itself. If you are part of the ILC, the LCMS and CPH may be able to offer a good deal to its 'little sister' church. (Really I have no idea whether they could or couldn't, but such things do happen around here occasionally!)
Originally posted by John H:
Our synod will probably put in a bulk order for the LSB, but this is likely to take some time. (We'll probably take delivery just as work commences on the next revision...)
quote:This is a wonderful thing you're doing, JSB. You'll be introducing the children to something that changed my life when I was introduced to it. I hope it helps them discover some of the riches of the church's tradition of continual prayer.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I believe that one or two of these have been mentioned on the Ship before. All are excellent and give a good flavor of current monastic and Anglican offices. I'm using the first two CDs for a children's Sunday School class on monks.
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quote:What a wonderful and appropriate lesson! The church continues to pray together even though we are no longer in the same building.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:This is a wonderful thing you're doing, JSB. You'll be introducing the children to something that changed my life when I was introduced to it. I hope it helps them discover some of the riches of the church's tradition of continual prayer.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I believe that one or two of these have been mentioned on the Ship before. All are excellent and give a good flavor of current monastic and Anglican offices. I'm using the first two CDs for a children's Sunday School class on monks.
quote:As mentioned, I also have the expanded edition of Lauds and Vespers. In fact, I've just obtained a second copy to give to a friend as a Christmas present!!! I can throughly recommend it to all those who would like to try out the LOH in Latin with a translation at hand. The translations of the office hymns might also be used with the vernacular editions of the LOH used in the UK and the USA as an alternative to the ordinary hymns provided in these books.
Still, the new book supplies a gap at a reasonable price ($55, plus, in my case, $20 for shipping to the UK), and with the $25 original currently out of print I reckon lots of Shipmates will want it!
quote:How will you use a 1961 Diurnal for the LotH?
Originally posted by Divine Office:
[QB]I'm also eagerly anticipating the reprint by Southwell Books of the 1961 Diurnal Romanum, which according to their website should be due at any time.
quote:I would pray one or more of the "old" offices occasionally from the 1961 book as a change from the current LOH. I have a copy of the Anglican Breviary which I have used in the same way. For example, for several weeks I prayed Sunday Vespers from the AB as a change from the current LOH Vespers.
How will you use a 1961 Diurnal for the LotH?
quote:Very nice, thank you. Some great listening. Why the big pauses in the cantors' versicles, though, we wonder? Why multiple cantors, for that matter? Minor quibbles.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Compline sung weekly from Minnesota Compline Choir. Download the services here .
quote:Bump!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Very nice, thank you. Some great listening. Why the big pauses in the cantors' versicles, though, we wonder? Why multiple cantors, for that matter? Minor quibbles.
quote:Happy belated birthday Spiffy! Or is it a very merry unbirthday?
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Happy birthday to me!
Happy birthday to me!
I got a St. Helena Breviary,
Happy birthday to me!
quote:And there was silence in heaven. Spiffy, I for one await your review with bated breath!
Originally posted by Martin L:
Anyway, now that you've had SHB for a while, do you like it?
quote:In the meantime, the Latin texts for the Office for the major feasts is available online at
Like Clavus, I'd love to see a second volume [of the Newman House Press Lauds and Vespers (Latin-English) - Expanded Edition] with the propers for all feasts and memorials.
quote:Splendid! Neatly formatted and complete. Hope they're working on the ferial and other days as well.
Originally posted by Clavus:
this Polish liturgy site
quote:*hands out breath mints*
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:And there was silence in heaven. Spiffy, I for one await your review with bated breath!
Originally posted by Martin L:
Anyway, now that you've had SHB for a while, do you like it?
quote:I had a very hard time with the inclusive language, but it doesn't bother me much anymore. The book is thorough, but to use it easily requires five or six markers, IMO, so it is certainly flippy. I also find the two-week psalter to be daunting and the text in the monastic version to be a bit small. It can definitely be said that this is not for the beginner!
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Well, I've been using the SHB in my usual less-than-consistent manner for about a month now, and it's, well, okay. It had a pretty high learning curve for me (and I've prayed a breviary or three in my lifetime).
quote:You think this is big: I've seen photos of the OSH sisters praying from fat three-inch binders, which probably held basically the same material that's in the fat monastic edition. So much for holding the breviary in one's hands while praying. Actually, if one's book rack is high enough, that might be a good thing (to have empty hands).
Originally posted by Martin L:
But honestly I would rather they had done several volumes and included the daily readings and the 'stories' of the commemorated people from LFF. It would reduce the book load!
quote:I've often wondered if it would come to me using my own self-composed 3-inch binders!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
You think this is big: I've seen photos of the OSH sisters praying from fat three-inch binders, which probably held basically the same material that's in the fat monastic edition. So much for holding the breviary in one's hands while praying. Actually, if one's book rack is high enough, that might be a good thing (to have empty hands).
quote:I don't know whether there's a right and wrong to this. The Anglican Breviary is the only book I've seen that says anything about it: something about how when praying the office in choir, the book is not to be picked up until the preparatory (double or triple) prayers are finished and the superior gives a signal (bangs a gavel, usually) to stand erect and turn to the altar for the opening versicles. With all the flippity involved in that book, it pretty much needs to be in hand most of the time.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I'm sure this thread or its parent has discussed office posture, but is holding the book in one's hands the 'right' thing to do?
quote:Welp, I dunno if it's right or not, but usually when I am praying it's prone, under blankets, with one eye propped open and the book balanced between the pillow and the wall.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I'm sure this thread or its parent has discussed office posture, but is holding the book in one's hands the 'right' thing to do?
quote:How about slumped in a coffee shop with the book on the table and my head on my forehead to keep vaguely upright? (And no, I wasn't hungover
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
quote:Welp, I dunno if it's right or not, but usually when I am praying it's prone, under blankets, with one eye propped open and the book balanced between the pillow and the wall.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I'm sure this thread or its parent has discussed office posture, but is holding the book in one's hands the 'right' thing to do?
)
quote:Well, I'm thinking of using part of my birthday (and day off
Originally posted by Martin L:
Our next endeavour--thinking up another marginally interesting topic to keep this thread on page 1!
) tomorrow working on The Perfect Breviary for a Benedictine Oblate Bent on Praying All the Psalms in a Week But With Only One Little Hour, and Based on Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae Schema A. Basically, it would be something like this:quote:But now I'm thinking of just being satisfied with my Monastic Diurnal Revised with its monthly psalter cycle. My plan involves too many books, and too much work to make it one book. The MDR requires only my Daily Office Book (just for the lessons) to be complete.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, I'm thinking of using part of my birthday (and day off
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, I'm thinking of using part of my birthday (and day off) tomorrow working on The Perfect Breviary...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Now, you know very well there is no such thing as the Perfect breviary! quote:An awesome reading! Happy birthday to you!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
This lesson was read at Evening Prayer in our church today, and in my prayer-scatteredness, this came as a gift:
From a letter to Proba by St Augustine
Let us always desire the happy life from the Lord God and always pray for it. But for this very reason we turn our mind to the task of prayer at appointed hours, since that desire grows lukewarm, so to speak, from our involvement in other concerns and occupations. We remind ourselves through the words of prayer to focus our attention on the object of our desire; otherwise, the desire that began to grow lukewarm may grow chill altogether and may be totally extinguished unless it is repeatedly stirred into flame.
quote:Thank you very much indeed! Despite my best intentions and a detailed plan, I never got to my full Benedictine office today. I am grateful, though, that I was able to attend Evening Prayer and Low Mass in my parish church. There were 10 souls in attendance, which is pretty good for a gloomy, rainy Wednesday.
Originally posted by Martin L:
An awesome reading! Happy birthday to you!
quote:That's a really, really good attendance total for a gloomy, rainy Wednesday in an inner city Episcopal church on St. Luke's Day. You probably had 5 times more people than at St. James Cathedral!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Thank you very much indeed! Despite my best intentions and a detailed plan, I never got to my full Benedictine office today. I am grateful, though, that I was able to attend Evening Prayer and Low Mass in my parish church. There were 10 souls in attendance, which is pretty good for a gloomy, rainy Wednesday.
Originally posted by Martin L:
An awesome reading! Happy birthday to you!
quote:Much of our parish's liturgical patterns were carved into stone by the previous rector when the 1979 BCP was adopted, so the times when something about a Mass or Office is decided just that day are rare indeed. I'm sure there's a book somewhere that lists all the observances of the church year along with notations like "Sung Mass at 6:30" or "Solemn High Mass with full choir..." I'm not complaining about this, as I do like the set-ness of the parish customary.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Out of curiosity, do you ever do a sung mass or sung evening prayer on a festival like today with just organ or organ and cantor (no choir)? At a church like yours, on a day like today, I would guess-timate around three people in the building were competent enough in organ to accompany hymns and liturgical music. Does anyone ever just say, "Let's do a sung mass. I can play."
He has played for an evening Sung Mass before, but that's because it was one of those that's always a sung Mass and the parish organist had a schedule conflict. The type of Mass isn't generally changed based on who shows up. Again, I'm not complaining, as I like this, although I don't think all parishes should be this way.
quote:Episcopalians that don't like change? I can hardly believe that!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The type of Mass isn't generally changed based on who shows up. Again, I'm not complaining, as I like this, although I don't think all parishes should be this way.
quote:I know...that's a major difference. I really like a peaceful Low Mass sometimes, though. Try it sometime!
Originally posted by Martin L:
As a Lutheran, the idea of a spoken mass is just absolutely perplexing.
quote:Indeed I have attended peaceful low masses before; I do find them lovely, and I have suggested them as alternatives to eliminating services on several occasions to horrified people(alas, to no avail). Still, my mind always defaults to sung mass mode being the norm, not the exception.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I know...that's a major difference. I really like a peaceful Low Mass sometimes, though. Try it sometime!
Originally posted by Martin L:
As a Lutheran, the idea of a spoken mass is just absolutely perplexing.
I'll bet even Lutherans would find Low Mass lovely on occasion.
But I suppose we'd best get back to Daily Office before we get yelled at.
After our next leadership change, it would be nice to bring it back, using more complicated tones. Any thoughts?
quote:Scott,
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
But now I'm thinking of just being satisfied with my Monastic Diurnal Revised with its monthly psalter cycle. My plan involves too many books, and too much work to make it one book. The MDR requires only my Daily Office Book (just for the lessons) to be complete.
quote:I like it a whole lot, and it continually impresses me as very Benedictine and very Episcopalian at the same time, which is a very good thing IMO.
Originally posted by BibleBeltAnglican:
I am thinking of investing in a copy of the Monastic Diurnal Revised. It's reasonably priced, and it would support the Community of St. Mary, so I'm all for it. However, could you give me some idea of what it's like? And, more importantly, how do you like it? Thank you!
quote:What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I like it a whole lot, and it continually impresses me as very Benedictine and very Episcopalian at the same time, which is a very good thing IMO.
Originally posted by BibleBeltAnglican:
I am thinking of investing in a copy of the Monastic Diurnal Revised. It's reasonably priced, and it would support the Community of St. Mary, so I'm all for it. However, could you give me some idea of what it's like? And, more importantly, how do you like it? Thank you!
quote:Well, there are whole online discussion groups dedicated to this question.
Originally posted by RCD:
What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
quote:Thanks for the explanation. Any links to the groups?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, there are whole online discussion groups dedicated to this question.
quote:Here are five of them. The first is about the Anglican Monastic Diurnal (the old one, not the Monastic Diurnal Revised) recently reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press, and the second is about the Roman Catholic one recently reprinted by Farnborough Abbey.
Originally posted by RCD:
quote:Thanks for the explanation. Any links to the groups?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, there are whole online discussion groups dedicated to this question.
quote:Is this thread just an excuse for Anglicans and RCs to take the piss out of each other?
Originally posted by RCD:
What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:Is this thread just an excuse for Anglicans and RCs to take the piss out of each other?
Originally posted by RCD:
What are the differences between the RC Monastic Diurinal and the Anglican one?
Diurnal.
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Just obtained second-hand copies of both volumes of The Monastic Diurnal Revised in excellent condition, the second volume of which is the original hardback edition.
Glad to hear it! And glad to know you're out there praying the MDR too. I sent a copy to a solitary in San Diego when she publicly committed herself to a contemplative life as a solitary and decided on the MDR as her daily office. Our nuns of the Order of St Anne pray the MDR in their convent chapel next door to church, starting with 6:30 a.m. Matins/Lauds before they head into the parish church for the 7 a.m. Low Mass, which is also their conventual Mass every day.quote:This is from members of the United Methodist Church in the USA and looks like a good effort. I've been tempted to purchase the books (Collect All Twelve!) but quickly saw the cost add up, so I've resisted, with the "sour grapes" idea that this has all been done before, so I don't need these.
Originally posted by Tom S:
Does anyone know anything about The Order of St Luke's Daily Office project? It looks quite interesting - basically an order for the offices but with different books for the different seasons.
They have a page of downloadable examples which seem to follow the basic pattern of morning and evening prayer but with some modern material included too.
But I suspect it's a fine breviary-in-many-volumes and would be satisfying to pray from.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
quote:What about one of the older lectionaries used with the 1662 BCP? Do they cover the whole Bible? If so, I might be tempted to use one.
Originally posted by John H:
Are the BCP 1979 and Common Worship daily lectionaries comprehensive in their coverage of Scripture? I'd prefer to stick to a plan that covers the whole Bible rather than one with omissions.
quote:Whereas we Canucks will let you have it for free here and here. Ours, like the England 1662, takes you through the entire New Testament and nearly all of the OT (with the exception of some obscure and repetitive and "begats"-laden passages).
Originally posted by Tom S:
Also, ECUSA lets me download their lectionary for free, while CW expects you to pay!
quote:The CofE's current lectionaries, inclusding the proposed weekday lectionary, are all available for free from links from this webpage
Originally posted by Tom S:
Also, ECUSA lets me download their lectionary for free, while CW expects you to pay!
quote:Lectionaries and I don't play well together, partially because my brain doesn't like skipping around through different stories (especially when I don't pray the Office every day), and partially because I often won't remember to look up the day's readings before I start the Office, so I have to stop praying and flippy some more, then try to remember how many verses it was and to stop, et cetera.
Originally posted by John H:
I currently use a modified version of the M'Cheyne Plan, which goes through the OT in two years and the NT in one year, but at the cost of being a bit of a gallop at times (not least because much of the year's "NT" readings are taken up by the psalms, rather than having a separate daily psalm). It also takes no account at all of the church year. So a comprehensive daily office lectionary would be a welcome alternative.
quote:I stand corrected. When I last checked that page (a couple of years back) it had a message saying that they would give us it for free this year, but we would have to pay after that - I'm glad common sense has prevailed! Are there any plans to produce the full readings in book form?
Originally posted by ken:
The CofE's current lectionaries, inclusding the proposed weekday lectionary, are all available for free from links from this webpage
quote:It's nice to hear I'm not the only person who has a problem with lectionaries!
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Lectionaries and I don't play well together, partially because my brain doesn't like skipping around through different stories (especially when I don't pray the Office every day), and partially because I often won't remember to look up the day's readings before I start the Office, so I have to stop praying and flippy some more, then try to remember how many verses it was and to stop, et cetera.[/QB]
quote:I go back and forth between the need to pray the same office as my Episcopal parish (BCP 1979, seven-week psalter cycle), and the fact that I'm a Benedictine oblate and feel drawn to pray the fullest form of that office that I can (ideally the full psalter in a week as in the Rule...can't say I've ever accomplished that, though).
Originally posted by lukacs:
Now, I'm a member of the ECUSA like many of you. I sometimes feel a little naughty about using an office and a lectionary that is not officially approved by my Bishop or used by my Church for that matter; I guess it's the Catholic in me. Has that come up for any of you who don't use the approved form of Office, nad if so, how do you justify what you do?
quote:When I graduated high school I received a copy of Zondervan's Student Bible that had this reading plan (and several of the other plans on that page you linked) as an intergral part of the Bible itself, so I did the 3 year plan in 2 years (one chapter in the AM, one in the PM, and lots of times when I forgot). That's probably the major reason I not only do my lectionary the way I do, but that I now pray the Daily Office.
Originally posted by leemc:
I've been using a plan from Zondervan publishing for quite a while now which is designed to take you through the entire Bible in three years.
quote:Have you obtained your copy of Lutheran Service Book yet? It is unfortunate that the Lutheran Worship all-of-scripture lectionary was not used. They instead use a most-of-scripture approach. It appears that it is sort of harmonized with the church year during the Christmas and Easter Cycles, though.
Originally posted by John H:
I'd prefer to stick to a plan that covers the whole Bible rather than one with omissions.
I currently use a modified version of the M'Cheyne Plan, which goes through the OT in two years and the NT in one year, but at the cost of being a bit of a gallop at times. It also takes no account at all of the church year.
quote:I know how that feels. I'm really happy with the combo that I'm using: Hymns for P & P, Prayer Book Office (why isn't the Nativity of the BVM in it!) and the Daily Office Book (Year 2). It also means that I have to lug a library on the go; Benedictine Daily Prayer is always a little imp at a corner beckoning.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
As a result of my to-ing and fro-ing, I pray less than I should and keep changing forms. I'd love to settle in and feel great about one form and be disciplined about it even when it seems tedious.
quote:I would suggest Matins and Lauds of the Dead from the Henrican Primer, but I reckon that is not exactly Rite II.
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Okay, so here's a little challenge.
I'm leading Morning Prayer (Rite II) on Thursday morning, All Souls' Day.
Strictly BCP service.
How should I tailor it?
I will be taking some text from the anthems of the Burial service. (And probably reading the anthem at the commendation in its entirety--I can't resist the line "yet even at the grave we make our song: Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.")
So what else should I do? What readings do I use?
Thanks!
quote:Some suggestions:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
I will be taking some text from the anthems of the Burial service....So what else should I do? What readings do I use?
). For those who have the book, I have a few questions about how it handles chants. How much of the offices are set to chant (just the psalms and canticles, or other elements too)? Are the chant tones provided directly with the psalms and canticles, or are the tones in a separate area of the book (I am hoping for the former)? Are there different chant settings of the Gospel canticles (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimitis) for particular weeks, seasons, or holy days? Thanks in advance.quote:Any idea what a rough price range might be?
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.
quote:The amount of an office that is chanted in the OSH Breviary depends on the rank of the day. In a ferial Matins, only the hymn is chanted. This is consistent with many monastic communities that don't sing much or at all first thing in the morning. On a Class I feast day, though, festal psalms are provided, and these are chanted according to the tones provided with the proper antiphons of the day. When you could possibly need chant pointing, it is provided. At Diurnum, I think everything can be chanted, including the short lesson. At Vespers, same thing, although the longer BCP lesson would probably not be chanted routinely. Compline is chanted once the confession and absolution are done. A quite comprehensive exposition of the psalm tones and their pointing is provided in the back of the book. Get one!
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I am thinking about buying The Saint Helena Breviary, Monastic Edition as a Christmas present to myself (the best way to justify spending $75 on a book
quote:It's being published to facilitate the public singing of the Liturgy of the Hours, yet it's going to be available in a "limited printing," and one has to phone a lady to find out more about it.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.
quote:There are three introductions to the chant tones--the simple tone, the canticle tone, and the solemn tone. The closings to the tones remain the same for all, although there are many, many different alternatives. Little is left to choice; it is pretty much decided for you. The simple tone is the norm for psalms, the canticle tone for the Benedictus and Magnificat, and the solemn tone for those canticles at appointed times. Other then that, there are not really any specific to particular holy days. Nunc Dimittis right now is using the same antiphon tone (Guide us waking...) as is used in Lutheran Book of Worship at Compline, only disguised by neumes. The chant tone for the rest is less complicated than in LBW, though. As Scott pointed out, there is a good background section that assumes absolutely no knowledge about Gregorian neumes, although knowledge about music is essential.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Are there different chant settings of the Gospel canticles (Benedictus, Magnificat, Nunc Dimitis) for particular weeks, seasons, or holy days?
Blessings,
J.S. Bach
quote:I find doing the canticle immediately after the Psalms more natural when only one reading is done.
Originally posted by Martin L:
The order of the major offices takes some acclimation as well. It has been mentioned earlier in the thread that it goes:
Psalm
First Reading
First Canticle (a great and varied selection)
[Second Reading]
Hymn (many different tone options)
Second Canticle (Ben. or Mag.)
quote:The pointing of the Diurnum and Vespers Psalms are excellent: it is not too complex and gives a singer ample confidence once she is familiar with the system. It also allows the text to be sung to different tones as required by the seasonal and temporale antiphons.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
As far as the chants go, I actually prefer to have the tones assigned rather than choose them myself. I need to learn the chant notation and got some good pointers earlier in this thread. Fortunately, I'm a strong choral singer. I still expect to work at it, though.
Blessings,
J.S. Bach
quote:I asked about getting a price on the book, even an estimate, but the lady said something about them still deciding what it would be. I expect to see a price in the mailing and will post details once it arrives.
Originally posted by RCD:
quote:Any idea what a rough price range might be?
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.
quote:We're discussing the forthcoming Mundelein Psalter. Alas, I think you are right about this book's prospects for increasing public offices in RC churches. Outside of monasteries, the only instance I've heard of in the Washington, DC area was during a visit of Pope John Paul II. They held an elaborate Morning Prayer service at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, complete with a massive choir. (Incidentally, I heard that the pope broke from protocol and, instead of joining the procession down the nave, first insisted on going back to shake hands with the conductor and several singers as well!)
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Somehow I don't expect this book, however good, will have parishioners across the USA chanting Morning and Evening Prayer together. Just a few, perhaps mainly during conferences.
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
Over the past week, I've gone right back to basics with the office, and used the 1662 Book of Common Prayer offices.
It must be a Lutheran thing, as I too find myself drawn to the simplicity of the Anglican office. Because of my US location, I use the 1979 book and go with either Rite I (trad lang) or Rite II (modern lang). When using these offices, it seems as though the bulk of the attention is paid to the Biblical readings (Psalms, Lessons, Canticles) and prayers--a back-to-basics sort of thing. And who can possibly complain about the beauty of BCP texts like the general thanksgiving, the two confessions of sin, and the prayer of humble access? Not me! If I were an Anglican priest or catechist, I would force all catechumens to learn these by heart just as they learn the Lord's Prayer, the Creeds, and the Ten Commandments. , I alternate breviaries based on their Psalm cycles and their appropriateness for various times of the church year. Also, since Lutheran churches rarely recognize minor festivals or commemorations, giving them added emphasis in the offices by using extra (or festive) canticles, additional psalms, readings, hymns, and prayers seems appropriate.quote:Actually, it's probably just an Anglican thing in my case, as my upbringing is solidly C of E, and I've only been a Lutheran for about three years.
Originally posted by Martin L:
It must be a Lutheran thing
quote:Welcome to the club, anyway, even if you are on the opposite end of the spectrum!
Originally posted by John H:
I've only been a Lutheran for about three years.
quote:If you'll check my previous post, you will notice that never once did I call the 1979 book the 'Book of Common Prayer.' I personally don't object to that use (for instance, the Bible is the Bible, no matter what the version may be), I've just learned that it is a hot-button issue here, mostly with those in the UK. There are only so many ways one can name a book of worship, as we Lutherans know all too well!
* i.e. it's a Book of Alternative Services, not a true Book of Common Prayer in the Cranmerian tradition.
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I'm a bit "Prayer Book Society" when it comes to the 1979 book: i.e. it's a Book of Alternative Services, not a true Book of Common Prayer in the Cranmerian tradition.
quote:As well it should. It's our BCP, and we use it as such, sniffs from overseas notwithstanding. Reserve some sniffs for the Church of Ireland.
Originally posted by John H:
* I'm talking 1662, here. I'm a bit "Prayer Book Society" when it comes to the 1979 book: i.e. it's a Book of Alternative Services, not a true Book of Common Prayer in the Cranmerian tradition. But don't tell anyone round here that I said that - it'll only lead to trouble.
quote:I just got my copy of Volume II of the new Antiphonale Monasticum from Solesmes. Volume II is the Psalter. Volume I was the Temporale, and I think Volume III will be the Sanctorale. This all replaces the fat 1934 Antiphonale.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I obtained my copy of the reprinted 1961 Diurnale Romanum today, which has all the hours of the traditional breviary in Latin except Matins. It's quite nicely produced.
quote:But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.
quote:That's an easy one--use it at Pentecost under the "Exotic languages are fair game at Pentecost" clause. Perhaps a very Anglo-Catholic priest could even be persuaded to use Latin for parts of the mass.
...but I fairly *swooned* when I saw the Trisagion in Greek! "Agios Athanatos, eleison imas" just has an eternal ring to it.
quote:I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use. The BCP works better for offices because of its consecutive psalter and the fact that it doesn't have to contain the readings themselves nor the thousands of responsories that the RC LotH has (not to mention the familiarity as a congregational prayer book from its use Sunday by Sunday). If the RC office could lose the responsories, give each psalm once in an easily referenced contiguous section, and have a lectionary citing readings that can be looked up by the lector in a Bible or separate lectionary, pastors might be more motivated to lead and/or promote the communal praying of the Divine Office in churches.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.
quote:And that's the truth! (Responsories--
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use.
) There doesn't really exist a decent multi-purpose Catholic breviary-psalter-missal. Most parishes around here provide Gather hymnals and Seasonal Missalettes in the pews, but I don't think I've ever once seen someone using them (well, maybe the cantor). Gather Comprehensive does contain Morning and Evening Prayer orders, right up front, but I've never seen them used.quote:What EWTN and others need to broadcast in addition to these big events is well-done ferial-day offices and Masses as an example of how things can be done.
Originally posted by Martin L:
The good news is that EWTN's coverage of papal offices is increasing. On the Saturday before Advent, they will most likely televise the Pope's First Vespers of Advent 1, beginning the new liturgical year. Perhaps some priests will watch this and decide to replicate it. They also televise the Pentecost Vigil (mostly vespers, IIRC).
quote:Or go somewhere where they do the Reproaches on Good Friday, where the Trisagion in Greek is an official part of the Western liturgy.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:That's an easy one--use it at Pentecost under the "Exotic languages are fair game at Pentecost" clause. Perhaps a very Anglo-Catholic priest could even be persuaded to use Latin for parts of the mass.
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
...but I fairly *swooned* when I saw the Trisagion in Greek! "Agios Athanatos, eleison imas" just has an eternal ring to it.
quote:Indeed! I seem to recall a time when they broadcasted at least Vespers. It was perhaps during the most recent Nine Days of Mourning, in honor of JPII. They sat in the choir stalls and took turns leading. I just wish they'd use that beautiful church for masses; you know, the one they use for Benediction.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
What EWTN and others need to broadcast in addition to these big events is well-done ferial-day offices and Masses as an example of how things can be done.
quote:I think YouTube, Google Video, and other such services have a lot of potential for broadcasting excellent liturgy far and wide. I'd love to see parishes and monastic communities make videos available of straightforwardly celebrated daily offices and Masses. These would not be substitutes for personal attendance but informative introductions to those who have never attended such services, or those who would like to do them well where they are but need to know how to do them well.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Indeed! I seem to recall a time when they broadcasted at least Vespers. It was perhaps during the most recent Nine Days of Mourning, in honor of JPII. They sat in the choir stalls and took turns leading. I just wish they'd use that beautiful church for masses; you know, the one they use for Benediction.
quote:Ehem...Cough...Griswold...
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I think YouTube, Google Video, and other such services have a lot of potential for broadcasting excellent liturgy far and wide.
...Low Mass...Cough...Daily Office...Cough...Benediction...Pontifical Mass...Cough...Highest Church in Biretta Belt...Hint Hint
quote:How did you know that from my torchbearing post at the north end of the altar this morning, I was figuring out camera positions and angles?
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Ehem...Cough...Griswold...
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I think YouTube, Google Video, and other such services have a lot of potential for broadcasting excellent liturgy far and wide.
quote:I know this was on another thread. Did we ever determine where the Highest Church the in Biretta Belt was? Did a church in Illinois win or was it Wisconsin? My home parish has several folks who grew up in the Diocese of Northern Indiana and remember several Fort Wayne churches being quite high back in the 50s and 60s.
Ehem...Cough...Griswold... ...Low Mass...Cough...Daily Office...Cough...Benediction...Pontifical Mass...Cough...Highest Church in Biretta Belt...Hint Hint
quote:Ascension's reputation (and widespread recognition) is 'nose-bleed' high enough that it makes a serious contender for the title.
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I know this was on another thread. Did we ever determine where the Highest Church the in Biretta Belt was? Did a church in Illinois win or was it Wisconsin? My home parish has several folks who grew up in the Diocese of Northern Indiana and remember several Fort Wayne churches being quite high back in the 50s and 60s.
quote:Busted! OK, Silent Acolyte, you got me there! I was the only pewsitter at the service. In attendance were an officiant and a choir of two. Four of us all together. The officiant greeted me afterwards and invited me to come back next week for the monthly choral evensong.
Hoosierpalian, How many attended? Did it seem like the choir were playing church so they could experience the aesthetics of singing the repetoire? Did you chat with any after evensong? Any foxes?
quote:
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
...but [we] sing the hymn versions of the canticles.
quote:You hit the nail on the head, Scott.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use. The BCP works better for offices because of its consecutive psalter and the fact that it doesn't have to contain the readings themselves nor the thousands of responsories that the RC LotH has (not to mention the familiarity as a congregational prayer book from its use Sunday by Sunday). If the RC office could lose the responsories, give each psalm once in an easily referenced contiguous section, and have a lectionary citing readings that can be looked up by the lector in a Bible or separate lectionary, pastors might be more motivated to lead and/or promote the communal praying of the Divine Office in churches.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.
quote:Thanks. I was just thinking about how the public praying of the Daily Office works at Ascension, Chicago (where I'm the Monday Evening Prayer officiant):
Originally posted by malik3000:
You hit the nail on the head, Scott.
quote:"In my day," as my late grandmother liked to say, the better missals had a section for Sunday and feastday Vespers. The psalms were fixed, so it didn't take up much room and was easy to negotiate; no extra book needed.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I think the more fundamental problem is the lack of clearly laid out, affordable office books designed for groups to use. The BCP works better for offices because of its consecutive psalter and the fact that it doesn't have to contain the readings themselves nor the thousands of responsories that the RC LotH has (not to mention the familiarity as a congregational prayer book from its use Sunday by Sunday).
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:But Catholics are all about indulgences, and one can't receive an indulgence for the offices. It would be far more likely to find a joint saying of the rosary or a mass.
Originally posted by Hoosierpalian:
I'd love to see increased public offices in Roman Catholic churches, which are much more plentiful than Episcopal churches in certain parts of the U.S.
quote:I'm not disappointed. As soon as I clicked the post button I suspected somebody would be around to correct me! One of the best things about Ecclesiantics is the education received about many different faith traditions, perspectives, and world views. And we're able to do it in a peaceful manner.
Originally posted by scopatore segreto:
I hate to disappoint Martin L, but the regular recitation of the Office was indulgenced, as were the prayers before and after it (the "womb and paps" one). I think it's rather the "Mass is required, nothing else is" mentality that led to mass being the only regular service ever offered in most American RC parish churches. Strangely, this disease seems to have been passed to the Episcopalians.
quote:It won't work for me either, so it's not your computer. If you need to see the main page, you can search "Anglican Breviary" on Yahoo and look at the cached page.
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Maybe it's just a glitch or something, but does anyone know what has happened to the Anglican Breviary website?
Umm...
quote:Thanks for verifying that for me, Martin L. I didn't need it for any office requirements. I have my AB and myriad other breviaries here with me (it pays to be prepared!). But I did need the website for something; thanks for reminding me of the existence of the cache.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:It won't work for me either, so it's not your computer. If you need to see the main page, you can search "Anglican Breviary" on Yahoo I'm quite taken care of, though, and I have myand look at the cached page.
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Maybe it's just a glitch or something, but does anyone know what has happened to the Anglican Breviary website?
Umm...
If you are fulfilling an office need, you can always use Mission St. Clare in the meantime.
quote:Do you have a designated person to post the numbers on the board, or is it the officiant's responsibility?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I was just thinking about how the public praying of the Daily Office works at Ascension, Chicago.
quote:The officiant is responsible for the hymn board having the correct information on it; I usually do any changes at 5:40 p.m. just after I turn the lights on and open the doors to the street. Then I set my books and vest to be ready by 6.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Do you have a designated person to post the numbers on the board, or is it the officiant's responsibility?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I was just thinking about how the public praying of the Daily Office works at Ascension, Chicago.
Also, let us know about Bp. Griswold's liturgy tomorrow if you attend. (Maybe he will have company!)
code:And we're ready for Bp Griswold in the morning.
PENTECOST
PS 119
97-120
CANT 11
16
quote:It (leaving visitors to figure out what to do) is not a practice at Ascension. Officiants need to realize when instructions are needed and not be so rigid as to refuse to help people participate. Those who do refuse to give any instructions are being jerks.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Has any stranger ever told the administration how much he likes this? It seems an unwelcoming, idiosyncratic practice that ought to be stopped.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
quote:While many aspects of the Office would have been indulgenced I do not think that the prayer Sacrosancte was an indulgence in the way most people think of indulgences. It supplied defects committed in the recitation of the Office.
Originally posted by scopatore segreto:
I hate to disappoint Martin L, but the regular recitation of the Office was indulgenced, as were the prayers before and after it (the "womb and paps" one). I think it's rather the "Mass is required, nothing else is" mentality that led to mass being the only regular service ever offered in most American RC parish churches. Strangely, this disease seems to have been passed to the Episcopalians.
quote:Forgive me my ignorance, but could someone provide the text of this prayer, please? I would be interested to see how it reads.
Originally posted by RCD:
While many aspects of the Office would have been indulgenced I do not think that the prayer Sacrosancte was an indulgence in the way most people think of indulgences. It supplied defects committed in the recitation of the Office.
quote:Sacrosancte et individuae Trinitati, crucifixi Domini nostri Jesu Christi humanitati, beatissimae et gloriosissimae semperque Virginis Mariae foecundae integritati, et omnium Sanctorum universitati sit sempiterna laus, honor, virtus et gloria ab omni creatura, nobisque remisso omnium peccatorum, per infinita saecule saeculorum. Amen.
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Forgive me my ignorance, but could someone provide the text of this prayer, please? I would be interested to see how it reads.
Thanks!
quote:I left my Horae at home because it's raining out, but www.breviary.net has the text: there's a link at the end of the page for each Hour (didn't want to post it in case their English is copyrighted).
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
Forgive me my ignorance, but could someone provide the text of this prayer, please? I would be interested to see how it reads.
Thanks!
quote:The Episcopal parish in my community uses the hymn board arrangement, too, probably emulating what they've seen done at Ascension!
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Most places, when they see a stranger, will announce the local customs (antiphonal/responsive) and variable bits either immediately before the beginning of the office or right before the variable psalm or canticle. I prefer the former, because it upsets the flow of the office less, but am perfectly happy with the latter.
TSA
quote:You would be in good company at Ascension, Chicago: that's how we do the Invitatory (officiant says first/proper half of refrain; people join in second, invariable half). Officiant says first line of invitatory psalm; all join in the rest of it in unison. Then the alternation again on the refrain after the Gloria Patri.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I always have trouble with the Invitatory Antiphon at Morning Prayer. In my Lutheran tradition, the leader says his/her part, then everyone responds the "O come let us worship him" part. When visiting spoken MPs at Episcopal churches, I usually get a comical glance when I respond with the part after the : by accident.
Typically, I just go with the flow and do whatever is appropriate to me--unison for invitatory and canticles, verse-by-verse alternation for the psalms, join in with the General Thanksgiving or Prayer of St. John Chrysostom (when used). I've never been booed out of the daily office before (to my knowledge).
quote:I've been away on business travel the past week but am sending my letter and check to the Vails Gate convent this weekend. I hope to be chanting by Christmas!
Originally posted by Martin L:
JS Bach, have you obtained your copy of St. Helena Breviary yet?
quote:I'm chanting the Office of the Dead from the OSH Breviary today, as we learned this morning of the very unexpected death of one of our acolytes.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
quote:I've been away on business travel the past week but am sending my letter and check to the Vails Gate convent this weekend. I hope to be chanting by Christmas!
Originally posted by Martin L:
JS Bach, have you obtained your copy of St. Helena Breviary yet?
quote:The Order of St Anne use The Monastic Diurnal Revised in their convent between the church and the rectory. They have a cozy upstairs chapel with traditional choir stalls and a small altar that is no longer used (the Blessed Sacrament is reserved and Masses said only at the Church of the Ascension now). They pray Matins/Lauds from the MDR at 6:30 a.m. and go into the church for 7 a.m. Mass daily, 8 on Sundays. Not sure of the rest of the office times, but they're at times appropriate to each office (no aggregations, and I don't think they skip offices).
Originally posted by Martin L:
You've probably mentioned this before, but I can't recall the answer. What breviary does your next door group of sisters use?
quote:After praying the daily office for about 8 years now, I have come to enjoy the "extras." I started out with Celebrating Common Prayer (the 1992 blue book), which seems to have started the nice trend towards using many canticles. Last year, I encountered psalm antiphons for the first time in Benedictine Daily Prayer, and they are great when reciting the office with another person who does not have the book. My mother and I prayed vespers together during the last 7 months of her life (she passed away in February), and we would take turns reciting psalms and the Magnificat and would join together on the antiphons. It is a memory I treasure, and I look for antiphons in any new office book I purchase. I've been using Common Worship: Daily Prayer since June, where antiphons are called refrains, but the principle is similar.
Originally posted by RCD:
And also, what type of Office do people prefer?
quote:The 1992 CCP contains an excellent example of a "cathedral" office in its simple services that occupy a few pages, with drawings, in the middle of the book somewhere. George Guiver CR points this out in the latest edition of his excellent book Company of Voices. He cites a parish that has used these simple services for years.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I started out with Celebrating Common Prayer (the 1992 blue book), which seems to have started the nice trend towards using many canticles.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I've been not praying the office at all.
Scott, I'm surprised! Is Howard Galley's PBO not good enough? quote:Most of those at one time or another. On work days, even though I work at home, there's a point in the morning (8:30) when if I haven't prayed a morning office, it won't happen that day. Problem is, before that I'm groggy and sometimes a prisoner of a longstanding morning routine. Fixable, yes, but not easily.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Is there something in particular that keeps you from saying the offices--the time commitment, the book juggling, deciding on propers and precedences, the lectionary, premature senior moments?
quote:Seriously, go for it
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Maybe if I stop reading about lectio and centering prayer and get doing it, I'll find more centered prayer time.
quote:Sounds like a good plan for Advent. Perhaps saying "I'm not going to bed at night until I've prayed Compline" would be a way to start.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:Seriously, go for it
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Maybe if I stop reading about lectio and centering prayer and get doing it, I'll find more centered prayer time.
quote:nah... when its time to move on to other forms of prayer, move on. You'll know when it comes that its not a matter of ill discipline, but a yearning for another means of union with God.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Sounds like a good plan for Advent. Perhaps saying "I'm not going to bed at night until I've prayed Compline" would be a way to start.
quote:Good point, I always go to bed within the Compline window-of-opportunity, but perhaps that's not the case for everybody.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:nah... when its time to move on to other forms of prayer, move on. You'll know when it comes that its not a matter of ill discipline, but a yearning for another means of union with God.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Sounds like a good plan for Advent. Perhaps saying "I'm not going to bed at night until I've prayed Compline" would be a way to start.
quote:BDP is 60 percent off today only at Liturgical Press if you enter 12DEAL01 as the discount code at checkout. Just passing the news along (I don't have any vested interest). Looks like the book plus tax and shipping is less than US$30.
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
For Advent, I've decided to kick-start my prayer-life in a rather more disciplined manner, to which end I've purchased a volume of Benedictine Daily Prayer. I'm finding it very useful to have everything in a single volume, and the use of the NRSV for the Psalms and Canticles feels fresh and simple - I think I like it.
quote:Nicely bound, handy size, everything in one book, modern materials in Benedictine office structure. Wish it used all 150 psalms, though. That's my only negative about it.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Other than 'one-more-breviary syndrome', why should I pick up a copy of the BDP?
I should never be let loose with a credit card near large quantities of books and music scores. I suppose this means I should get out my copy of Divine Hours for Dodos and spend Advent learning how to actually say Compline and MP without having to consult the cheatsheets.
quote:You go, Spiffy! Then there may be a cure for breviaryitis after all.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
I decided to exercise fiscal stewardship and forego the BDP this go-around.
quote:I asked about getting a price on the book, even an estimate, but the lady said something about them still deciding what it would be. I expect to see a price in the mailing and will post details once it arrives.
Originally posted by RCD:
quote:Any idea what a rough price range might be?
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Another chant-based office book in the works is The Mundelein Psalter, based on the current RC Liturgy of the Hours. From a phone conversation with a very nice lady at Mundelein’s Liturgical Institute and Internet searches, this book sounds promising. Apparently it will have 1,200 pages but is designed to be held in the hand (4 x 7 inches). Expected publication date is February 2007. I got on the mailing list for ordering information when that becomes available.
quote:The SHB is in the tradition of the Order of the Holy Cross (OHC) volume, A Monastic Breviary. As such, it's the 1979 BCP office materials enhanced with antiphons, responds, hymns, and proper material. It uses a two-week psalter distribution across four daily offices.
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
I'm getting nibbles of curiosity about the St. Helena's Breviary. Could those of you who use it tell me more about it?
quote:Hi Ricardus!
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
You may be interested in the Franciscan Office Book. This is the official office of the Franciscan Order of the Sacred Heart (FSC).
quote:... principally that it's not the pre-Vatican-II liturgy, it seems...
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Here is someone with many gripes about the post-Vatican-II Liturgy of the Hours.
quote:At Ascension, Chicago, we do it thus:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Can someone who uses the '79 BCP in public recitation let me know what your parish's custom is for the reading of Lessons? Specifically, how do you handle the reading of three lessons in a form seemingly designed for two per hour? OT and Epistle at Mattins and OT and Gospel at Evensong? Thanks as always--
quote:Yes, my only gripe is that the psalter is incomplete. On the other hand, when I was following an order which went through the whole psalter I found I was truncating it anyway, so maybe being slightly less ambitious is all for to the good.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Nicely bound, handy size, everything in one book, modern materials in Benedictine office structure. Wish it used all 150 psalms, though. That's my only negative about it.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Other than 'one-more-breviary syndrome', why should I pick up a copy of the BDP?
quote:When I was in the rota for saying Evening Prayer at the university chapel, we simply took the 3 lessons from the offfice lectionary for the day (p. 936ff). The creed followed the third lesson.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Can someone who uses the '79 BCP in public recitation let me know what your parish's custom is for the reading of Lessons?
quote:If reading three lessons at once, or using a separate text like the one Scott cites above, are not viable options, and one does not want to read the OT lesson from the other year (which IIRC is what the '79 BCP suggests), what is the best way to split up the three lessons four ways?
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Saying only two lessons would have been trickier, because we would have had to decide which two.
quote:One traditional way is to read only one lesson, followed by Magnificat, at Evening Prayer. This saves the Nunc dimittis for Compline. An easy way to avoid indecision about the order of lessons is to read the first two at Morning Prayer and the third one (Gospel) at Evening Prayer, making a nice progression through the day.
Originally posted by lukacs:
quote:If reading three lessons at once, or using a separate text like the one Scott cites above, are not viable options, and one does not want to read the OT lesson from the other year (which IIRC is what the '79 BCP suggests), what is the best way to split up the three lessons four ways?
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
Saying only two lessons would have been trickier, because we would have had to decide which two.
quote:[minor clarification]
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Hi Ricardus!
Welcome to the Ship! Someone more important than I will probably wander past and greet you properly, but I got here first. Neener.
quote:I have grown accustomed to SHB, but it took a while. They are substantial (long) offices largely occupied by Psalms.
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
I'm getting nibbles of curiosity about the St. Helena's Breviary. Could those of you who use it tell me more about it?
PS Oh, and any info/opinions on the St. Helena's Psalter would be appreciated as well.
quote:ooh ! New and FREE !!
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
You may be interested in the Franciscan Office Book. This is the official office of the Franciscan Order of the Sacred Heart (FSC).
quote:I've thought about it.
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
Reading the psalms in order makes no more sense than singing the hymnal in order when you think about it.
I don't see anything wrong with singing the hymns in order, nor praying the psalms in order. Seems like a fine plan, and easy to keep track of.
quote:With just about any office among the several I can't decide between, the common thread is my use of the 1979 BCP (USA) lectionary. This works with the St Helena Breviary and the Monastic Diurnal Revised, and the new CSF Office Book.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I have a survey question myself. As the liturgical year is starting soon, I am having trouble settling on a lectionary to use. What is everybody else using?
quote:But, um, most of the historical schemas for the recitation of the Psalter (Roman, Benedictine) consisted of reading the Psalms in order over the course of a week, divided between Matins and Vespers. So it's very traditional, even if it doesn't "make sense."
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
Reading the psalms in order makes no more sense than singing the hymnal in order when you think about it.
quote:Is there some link to this order online so that I may see how it compares to the American BCP ordering?
Originally posted by Tom S:
At the moment I'm using the BCP order for working my way through the psalter - ie I get through the whole thing each month. This is the style that best suits me, but I am finding it a bit draining when one day there seems to be an awful lot to get through, and on other days it's quite thin. Does anyone know of any decent alternatives that cover the psalter in order over a similiar period, but are a bit more consistent in how much is covered each day?
Maybe should write one myself...
quote:No, but it sure is fun! My choir does this twice a year, to familiarize us with different hymns.
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
Reading the psalms in order makes no more sense than singing the hymnal in order when you think about it.
quote:Congrats. on receipt of your SHB! The lectionary at the back of the book is identical to the BCP 1979. Preceding the lectionary is a chart with the 2-week psalm scheme used by the order.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
As for the lectionary, I'll likely stay with the Daily Office lectionary found in U.S. BCP '79. I've been using it or some variation all year. At some point, I might want to try the Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings, which are listed in the new Evangelical Lutheran Worship and the Church of Ireland's weekday lectionary, among other places.
JSB
quote:Unfortunately the Monastic Edition (with music) does not include the lectionary.
Originally posted by Lou Poulain:
Congrats. on receipt of your SHB! The lectionary at the back of the book is identical to the BCP 1979. Preceding the lectionary is a chart with the 2-week psalm scheme used by the order.
Lou
quote:Here's what you need for plane trips.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Of course, I won't be able to take all these books with me on plane trips.
JSB
quote:I should have said something about mine since I've had it for over a month now! Love love LOVE it, LOVE having everything right there, toted it all over DC and Oregon(silly picture).
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Here's what you need for plane trips.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Of course, I won't be able to take all these books with me on plane trips.
JSB
quote:Yup. Four ribbons is not enough. In addition I have two Amazon bookmarks and a dental appt reminder card. Yesterday was St. Andrews so there was a marker for the beginning of Matins, a bookmark for the Common of Saints 1, my dental card for the collect for St. A.,a ribbon for the Benedictus, a ribbon for the psalms, plus one ribbon and two scraps of paper in the bible and a ribbon in the LFF. Three weeks in, and I am getting past the angst of flipping for the right page, etc. That said, I am not using the antiphons for the psalms, as that's another "flip" thru the book to distract me.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Regarding marking the SHB, Post-It notes are your friend. It feels much like marking my hymnal before service when I'm singing in the choir (same number of post-its?) and I've found it quite distracting for regular use. Seems to be my weekend office book, for leisurly Saturday mornings.
quote:Ewww! Disgusting! No thanks, I'd rather use a Bible than a politically motivated paraphrase.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Here's what you need for plane trips.
quote:hmmm. All texts and translations are political. Show me one that is not
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:Ewww! Disgusting! No thanks, I'd rather use a Bible than a politically motivated paraphrase.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Here's what you need for plane trips.
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Lots of good bits about the Daily Office, too, and the whole spirituality of the Office, contemplative prayer, and contemplative use of the psalter.
And you got this at Borders?
quote:Yep, State & Randolph. I was surprised, too.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Lots of good bits about the Daily Office, too, and the whole spirituality of the Office, contemplative prayer, and contemplative use of the psalter.
quote:The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.
quote:The NRSV is permitted in RC churches in Canada. My Episcopal parish here in Chicago has a set of the Canadian RC NRSV daily Mass lectionary for use when our daily-Mass readings match theirs (almost always) and the celebrant or acolyte needs a large-print text to read from.
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.
quote:In every English speaking country except the US it's the standard translation for use at Mass, isn't it? It's also not in the least a paraphrase, some people criticize it for being too literal (eg. it doesn't try to capture different writers' styles, or tranlate an idiom with an idiom...).
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.
quote:Here's a recent list. It's probably off by a little, but I think it's for the most part accurate.
Originally posted by Hart:
In every English speaking country except the US it's the standard translation for use at Mass, isn't it? It's also not in the least a paraphrase, some people criticize it for being too literal (eg. it doesn't try to capture different writers' styles, or tranlate an idiom with an idiom...).
quote:Keep the 2 volume office book - they are adorable. They complement SHB too: saves you trouble flipping through a Bible for your lection.
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
Even though it is more complicated than what I had been using (the ECUSA 2 vol. daily office book), I decided to take the plunge because of the high regard in which the SHB is held by people here. I'm really glad I got it, because the writing is just beautiful. I am gunshy of clunky translations, but this one is terrific.
Even though I will have to flip around, and use a separate book for the Biblical readings (my daily office book!!), it is quite do-able.
Thanks very much to all of you!
quote:Yes, sorry, that would be the important caveat: I AM Canadian
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:The NRSV is permitted in RC churches in Canada.
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
quote:The Roman Catholic Church does not permit use of the [u]N[/u]RSV at Mass.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
The NRSV is a paraphrase? I think both my current Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church of my childhood (both of which use it) would be surprised.
.quote:As that list shows, the NRSV is not permitted in any English speaking nation. It is listed by the USCCB as "under consideration" by the Vatican, but the Vatican is steadfastly not approving it because it doesn't meet the standards, having gone too far in the so-called inclusive language fad. The standard edition in the US is the NAB, and elsewhere is the JB.
Here's a recent list. It's probably off by a little, but I think it's for the most part accurate.
The Vatican's tolerance for the NRSV seems to be growing. I wouldn't be surprised if US Catholics see it used some day.
quote:The Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, which has approved it, may be surprised by that statement.
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
Y'all may be using it in Canada, but it isn't permitted.
quote:I purchased this book last week at the campus bookstore (a Barnes and Noble), and have absolutely fallen in love with it. As someone who has desired to begin chanting the psalms during his recitation of the office for the past few months, it is certainly a godsend. And as someone who suffers from a severe dearth of both musical ability and training, the instructional CD makes it all the better. I would highly recommend buying this one if you're at all interested in expanding your engagement with the offices.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Back on topic, I happened across Cynthia Bourgeault's new book, Chanting the Psalms, at Borders yesterday. Bought it, of course. And the more I read it, the more I think, "If I wrote a book, this is the one I'd write." She's beaten me to it. Comes with a CD of examples of various ways of chanting the psalms, including some from upcoming office books. She cites the St Helena Breviary among others.
Lots of good bits about the Daily Office, too, and the whole spirituality of the Office, contemplative prayer, and contemplative use of the psalter.
quote:Or maybe they are just moving away from confusing translation with catechesis. I suggest Kerygmania, Purgatory, or Hell for further discussion of this, if you feel the need.
Originally posted by malik3000:
2. As has been noted above the "Holy See" is moving away from, not further to, greater acceptance of the NRSV because (how can i say this non-hellishly?) they are moving away from an attitude of greater inclusivity in general. Those guys have made it abundantly clear that they are absolutely averse to anything that would imply that power should be equally shared with those not of their gender. I say this from my heart with great sadness because it is this (un-Christ-like in my opinion) intransigency that has pushed me out.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus Sacerdos:
LitQ, I certainly wouldn't want to quibble with your obviously superior on the spot knowledge.
That's not what I meant to imply!
quote:What a way to drown, though!
Originally posted by Martin L:
malik3000, I've used a Psalm scheme similar to the Lutheran one you mentioned. I used it in Pfatteicher's work Daily Prayer of the Church, which contains the offices from LBW in an amplified format. I like it, because frankly those Benedictine and offshoot breviaries drown me with Psalms.
quote:Once again, we are left high and dry. LBW did offer provision for individual offices, but I didn't use them because they simultaneously omitted and kept things that they shouldn't. It's plainly apparent to me that the ELW (and LBW) offices were written for corporate use.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Looks to me as though ELCA Lutherans who have a personal daily-office discipline will have to turn to Pfatteicher's excellent book or the four-volume For All the Saints series, as the new ELW aims its office materials at congregational services. Am I right? NTTAWWT, but I think LBW had provisions for individual use of the offices.
quote:Please do - this sounds like just the thing I was looking for.
Originally posted by malik3000:
I found a digital copy of the psalm schema to which i referred above, and will post it later for y'all's consideration.
quote:I'm no expert in this, but IIRC the five times daily prayer is the same thing each time, and it is rather brief.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
Question: How feasible would it be for a layperson or parish cleric to use the Anglican Breviary in its entirety on a daily basis? (I know Muslims pray five times a day).
quote:It would take a serious time commitment, both to learn how to pray the various offices and then to pray them. If one can do it, I think the rewards would be great. I've sometimes tried to do it, on a Saturday, for instance, and have gotten through Matins and Lauds and couldn't go any further.
Originally posted by Martin L:
If anybody here has tried what you suggest, it would be Scott Knitter.
I think I've done a whole day's offices once.quote:Welcome to Daily Offices and to the Ship in general, ConsAnglican!
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I was wondering if someone in this thread could kindly tell me more about Daily Prayer of the Church by Pfatteicher, and particularly how it compares to Benedictine Daily Prayer, which I'm currently using as my breviary.
quote:The Daily Prayer of the Church expands on the Lutheran Book of Worship daily office much as Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office expands on the BCP 1979 one. (Whew...enough with the italics already.)
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I was wondering if someone in this thread could kindly tell me more about Daily Prayer of the Church by Pfatteicher, and particularly how it compares to Benedictine Daily Prayer, which I'm currently using as my breviary. I really like BDP -- especially the prayers of intercession, which are very well done in terms of focusing one's prayers towards the needs of the Church and the world. However, I miss collects, which are a staple of Anglican prayer. The leaflet for DPotC looks great, but I'm worried that the basic form of the services or the intercessory prayers might leave something to be desired as compared to BDP.
quote:Do say! Do say!
There is so much more I could say
quote:DPOTC obviously uses modern language. Pfatteicher tends to favor BCP79-style language using lots of subordinate clauses, not the direct language found in the current English language Roman Missal. I believe the canticles that are not part of the LBW resources come from the NRSV. The antiphons and responsories are pulled from anywhere and everywhere, but mostly LOTH.
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I suppose I ought to divulge my preferences in a breviary, which are:
1. Modern language, as Jacobean English was the English at the time the BCP was composed, and was not meant to be special language for praying to God.
quote:Not a problem in DPOTC. The Psalter is BCP79-LBW.
2. Non-inclusivized language, as I think many psalms lose their double meaning...
quote:The Lutheran offices were written primarily for corporate use, but it was intended that they be easily adaptable by individuals. They are.
3. An office that can easily be said alone, rather than one obviously designed only for corporate worship.
quote:Ample variety is provided! The four week cycle of supplemental collects mentioned by J.S. Bach helps, as do the invitatory antiphons, the Psalm antiphons, the hymns, the supplemental canticles on Saturday/Sunday, and the responsories. There is also a brief but impressive treasury of notable prayers at the back, such as Anima Christi, and St. Ignatius Loyola's 'Teach us..,' and the Prayer of St. Francis. Great stuff to commit to memory!
4. Sufficient variety, so things don't get boring and repetitive.
quote:I'm encountering several of them in the Advent section.
Originally posted by Martin L:
One caveat--there are some typos, but nothing that would keep me from buying the book again.
quote:I did do that for one week with the old Roman breviary but eventually moved back to the modern LOTH. I still do it on holy days for devotional reasons, and read Matins so I get a chunk of psalms and a few lessons.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
Question: How feasible would it be for a layperson or parish cleric to use the Anglican Breviary in its entirety on a daily basis? (I know Muslims pray five times a day).
quote:Breviaries do seem to have more typos than usual, but I actually caught on in ELW: Leader's Edition today. The "Psalm" appointed for either today or tomorrow in the Daily Lectionary is the Benedictus. For two days, it is cited properly as Luke 1, but on the other day it is cited as Luke 11. Of course, this leaves people with saying the Benedictus twice at Morning Prayer or choosing an alternative (good luck with that, there's not much from which to choose!)
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
Thanks again. Typos seem to bedevil (if that's the right (rite?) word) breviaries. I've found two so far in BDP, although I don't have them handy for reference.
quote:I love the SHB:ME as well. I do get concerned that the binding might not last long: it's such a heavy book, and I think the brown paper that is supposed to be attached to something (inside of the spine? inside edges of the signatures of pages?) has never really been completely attached. Perhaps a local bookbinder can reinforce it for long wear.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I've been enjoying praying matins and vespers from The Saint Helena Breviary: Monastic Edition over the last week. The Advent antiphons and canticles are wonderful.
quote:Mine has questionable binding as well. The worst thing about it is that I have yet to find a decent ribbon marker that will remain in place. The binding is just too loose to hold one in.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
My copy makes a loud cracking noise when opened; wonder whether there's a group cracking of books at the start of the sisters' offices.
quote:I'm using the one designed for the Lutheran Book of Worship and sold by Augsburg Fortress; its spine tab stays in just fine for me once the ribbons are all marking pages in the book. Pretty loose until then.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Mine has questionable binding as well. The worst thing about it is that I have yet to find a decent ribbon marker that will remain in place. The binding is just too loose to hold one in.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
My copy makes a loud cracking noise when opened; wonder whether there's a group cracking of books at the start of the sisters' offices.
quote:I think what would inform my decision is my awareness of what I am doing: am I fulfilling a personal commitment to pray the whole Office (in which case I think I'd start with the first office of the day and catch up to midday), or am I rejoining a universal cycle of prayer that has been carried on without me while I slept (in which case I'd jump on the carousel at Sext or midday prayer and move on from there)? I think either is a legitimate approach, although too much amalgamation to catch up is not ideal, IMO. Better to anticipate a bit than run a lot of offices together.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
One question. Suppose if you have access to an Office Book with a decent provision for the hours. You wake up at 11.30 am.
Will you say
a) morning prayers, on its own
b) mid-day prayers with the psalms for morning prayer
c) mid-day prayers and using the forms for intercession and perhaps collect from morning prayers
What informs your decision? Are there any factors that should make one choose otherwise?
quote:I don't have a problem with rendering Psalm 1 as "Happy are they" rather than "Happy is the man". I think there is still plenty of room for exposition to identify Our Lord as the formost one who has "not walked in the counsel of the wicked."
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
2. Non-inclusivized language, as I think many psalms lose their double meaning of referring to both us and Jesus (e.g., a suffering man versus suffering people) when pluralized or put in the second person, and I don't think other means of expressing the Trinity capture the range of meanings in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
quote:Scott, can you link us to ordering info on this one? I used an older edition of the CSF office when I went on retreat at the SSF friary on Mt. Sinai, Long Island. It was great. I imagine the new one will be equally good.
I also recently purchased the new CSF Office Book from the Community of St Francis in San Francisco. It's a very durably bound book based on the 1979 BCP office with influence (and materials) from Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office and from Celebrating Common Prayer (or, more specifically, Daily Office SSF).
quote:I would contact them by e-mail using the address given here.
Originally posted by lukacs:
quote:Scott, can you link us to ordering info on this one? I used an older edition of the CSF office when I went on retreat at the SSF friary on Mt. Sinai, Long Island. It was great. I imagine the new one will be equally good.
I also recently purchased the new CSF Office Book from the Community of St Francis in San Francisco. It's a very durably bound book based on the 1979 BCP office with influence (and materials) from Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office and from Celebrating Common Prayer (or, more specifically, Daily Office SSF).
quote:Re Psalm 1, there is room for the exposition you suggest in pluralized form, and my preference for non-inclusive language is not a strong one. What English needs, obviously, is a third person singular gender-neutral pronoun with appropriate possessives. The French on works in English as the pronoun "one", but our possessives almost always indicate physical gender, whereas the French possessive's indicate grammatical gender. I suppose I am a traditionalist in the sense that I was raised to understand that the male singular was the proper form of the generic (the formative experience being my eighth grade (female) English teacher giving me a bad mark for a sentence that read something like "One must put one's clothes in the washing machine.")
I don't have a problem with rendering Psalm 1 as "Happy are they" rather than "Happy is the man". I think there is still plenty of room for exposition to identify Our Lord as the formost one who has "not walked in the counsel of the wicked."
One alternative Trinitarian formula that is capable of being technically correct is "God Unbegotten, God Begotten, and God Proceeding."
quote:Thanks. I'm glad the Camadolese are publishing their office book. I thought smuggled copies were my only hope. Their psalm tones are among the most successfully written for the strophe form.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The first will be very available, as it is due to be published by Liturgical Press: Lauds and Vespers [not sure that will be the final title] of New Camaldoli in California. This will be valuable for the chant antiphons and tones that demonstrate one very natural way to chant psalms in English. Cynthia Bourgeault, an oblate of New Camaldoli, gives many examples of this in her compelling book, Chanting the Psalms.
quote:I think "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" can carry as rich a multitude of complex meanings based on our understanding/ myths/ beliefs about life and the cosmos.
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I disagree with the proposed Trinitarian formula, for two reasons. First, linguistically, "In the Name of God Unbegotten, God Begotten, and God Proceeding" is inelegant. That's not my key complaint (as the claim made is for accuracy, not elegance). But I think that the "begotten" formula, or the overused "Creater, Redeemer, Sustainer" each convey only one aspect of a multifaceted relationship among the Godhead, whereas "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" can impart a multitude of complex meanings based on our understanding from personal experience of the inherent complexity of familial relationships.
quote:Mockingbird's suggestion is brilliant in that it captures the essense of this movement within the Trinity (actually in a way clearer than Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
The Magnificat Doxology -
Give glory to God the Father:
he has fulfilled his promise in Mary;
she gave birth to Christ our Saviour
by the power of the holy Spirit.
quote:It's been mentioned in the summaries of the last two Oblate Council meetings:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Any other teasers for the Meinrad office?
quote:Another summary says the Liturgy of the Hours book will contain a four-week office and that the ritual and customary prayer book will be called Oblate Customary and Rituals.
Four new publications are coming up: a brochure on becoming an oblate [I've received that already--SK], a Liturgy of the Hours book, a ritual and customary prayer book, and printing of the second edition of the Benedictine Oblate Companion.
quote:One thing I'm missing about Benedictine Daily Prayer is the idea that it's a version of the St. John's Abbey monks' office. It seems very different indeed, to me. How specifically does it resemble the SJA office (the office of the seven blue binders)?
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
It is quite interesting that the Monastic houses are now sharing their liturgical texts. BDP/ St John's Abbey did a good job by testing the grounds since their unfortunate problems with their 1975 shorter LOH.
quote:Hard to say. The monks' office follows a four-week psalter distribution. Would be nice if the oblates could have the same office, perhaps minus the thousands of responsories (but they're the work of the wonderful Fr Columba Kelly OSB, so I'd miss them). I believe the monks' choir books are changed seasonally. They have a choir book with all the chanty bits, a separate Grail psalter pointed as needed, and the psalm tones. Nice tabbed comb-bound choir books; guests get to use a copy when praying with the monks.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Looks like the Meinrad book will give a fuller form than Sutera's Work of God but not as full as BDP.
quote:Jumping on the carousel of prayer can explain Maxwell Johnson's editorial decision to include selections schema A in his psalter, rather than the entire collection of psalms.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by DitzySpike:
[qb] One question. Suppose if you have access to an Office Book with a decent provision for the hours. You wake up at 11.30 am.
Will you say
a) morning prayers, on its own
b) mid-day prayers with the psalms for morning prayer
c) mid-day prayers and using the forms for intercession and perhaps collect from morning prayers
I think what would inform my decision is my awareness of what I am doing: am I fulfilling a personal commitment to pray the whole Office (in which case I think I'd start with the first office of the day and catch up to midday), or am I rejoining a universal cycle of prayer that has been carried on without me while I slept (in which case I'd jump on the carousel at Sext or midday prayer and move on from there)? I think either is a legitimate approach, although too much amalgamation to catch up is not ideal, IMO. Better to anticipate a bit than run a lot of offices together.
quote:Daily Prayer: A Form of Praise and Prayer for Use at Any Time of the Day is one of the more innovative and flexible office books I've seen. Bound durably like a children's story book, it's a slim volume with a structure and prayers (you need the Grail psalter along with it) for one single office per day, with provision for additional offices. It has seasonal variations but uses the secular calendar, probably for simplicity for new users (one looks up March 12 rather than Tuesday in the II Week of Lent, for instance).
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Perhaps the future of the daily office will take on forms with different intention.
quote:I understand that the third and final volume will be the Sanctoral, joining the Temporal (Vol 1) and the Psalter (Vol 2).
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I assume that further volumes will provide for ferial days and feast days. I would also assume that a monastic community could utilise the 1934 Antiphonale for these until the new books are published.
quote:I have a copy of this and can verify that it is an extraordinary piece of work. Simply awe-inspiring.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
There is also, as has been previously reported here, a Nocturnale for the Roman Breviary published by Hartker.
quote:Excellent! Though I completely agree about the knotty pine.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Just more of a very good thing.
quote:Today I'll start with O Wisdom, per the Saint Helena Breviary. Last O is O Virgin of Virgins, on the 23rd.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Who has started O Sapientia and who is doing it tomorrow on the 17th?
quote:The Church of England website doesn't seem to be doing the O Antiphons at all. Can anyone think of a good reason for this, other than that they have forgotten?
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Who has started O Sapientia and who is doing it tomorrow on the 17th?
quote:Well, since I forgot last night (read: drunk as a skunk), I guess I'm starting tonight. I'm using SHBp, so I'll just bump them each back a day...
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Who has started O Sapientia and who is doing it tomorrow on the 17th?
quote:In the sacristy at Ascension, Chicago, this morning, I noticed that a card with the O Antiphons had been posted for Evening Prayer officiants to use; the first is today, not yesterday. I think they are from Galley's Prayer Book Office. So I have to decide whether I'll stay one day removed from the parish's use of the O's or get with the parish's program. I'll have to do the latter at least tomorrow evening, when I'm officiant. Generally I'm alone at that office, and if so, perhaps I shall attempt to wing the chant.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Today I'll start with O Wisdom, per the Saint Helena Breviary. Last O is O Virgin of Virgins, on the 23rd.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Who has started O Sapientia and who is doing it tomorrow on the 17th?
quote:The O Antiphons are in the Common Worship: Daily Prayer book, so the website programmers either forgot or didn't build in the capability for daily changing antiphons. Either way, it is unfortunate.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
The Church of England website doesn't seem to be doing the O Antiphons at all. Can anyone think of a good reason for this, other than that they have forgotten?
quote:I'm fairly sure they were there last year. I recall thinking that the website was helpful in showing how they are used, whereas the book isn't very clear, if you don't know what to expect. I remember one minister, using the book, including both the usual refrain and the O Antiphon.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
The O Antiphons are in the Common Worship: Daily Prayer book, so the website programmers either forgot or didn't build in the capability for daily changing antiphons. Either way, it is unfortunate.
quote:At least the link to the intercessory prayers is now correct. It has pointed to the prayer for use in Advent for at least the last year and, like a stopped clock telling the right time twice a day, that's the right place once more.
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I too was p.o.ed that the CofE web site left them off. We pray the office here in the office after hours.
quote:Interesting. I'm familiar with the older calander system. 23rd Evening - 1 Vespers of Advent 4, Vigils of Advent 4; 24th Morning - Lauds of Advent 4; Thereafter the Propers of Christmas Eve with the commemoration of Advent 4 with its antiphon and collect.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
So, I've got my SHB open and am wondering, what do we pray on Sunday matins this year, Advent IV or Christmas Eve? Do we just get to choose ourselves? Figure as we get closer to actual evening-shaped things, it'll definately be Christmas Eve, so the point's moot for Vespers, nu?
quote:I should defer to SHB users, of course. The old monastic breviary rubrics have it as follows: Saturday evening is Vespers for the Saturday before Advent IV, but from Lauds onwards you do the Vigil of the Nativity with a commemoration of the Sunday at Lauds. Vigil offices end at None, so Sunday Vespers is I Vespers for the Nativity, proper. This is from my monastic diurnal, which is handy at the moment; I can check the rubrics for matins elsewhere.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
So, I've got my SHB open and am wondering, what do we pray on Sunday matins this year, Advent IV or Christmas Eve?
quote:[Added quote code to make clear that material was quoted from the breviary.net website]
At Matins, this Office is a Simple, at Lauds and the Hours, a Double.
However, when the Vigil of Christmas occurs with Sunday, the Office is said as follows:
- At Vespers on the 23rd, all as on Saturday before the IV Sunday in Advent.
- At Matins, Invit. of Christmas Eve, as below, but the Hymn of Advent from the Ordinary; the Antiphons, Psalms, Lessons and Nocturn Versicles and Responds at the I and II Nocturns are said as on the IV Sunday of Advent; but at the III Nocturn, although the Antiphons and Psalms are of Sunday, as in the Psalter, the Nocturn Versicle and Respond are of the Vigil, and likewise the three Lessons of the Homily, with their Responds for the Homily of the Sunday is not read as Lesson ix.
- Lauds is of the Vigil with Commemoration of the Sunday. And likewise, throughout the Hours, the Office is of the Vigil, of which, however, just as of that of the Sunday, nothing is said after None.
quote:I'll have to wait until I go home from work and check mine (I've got the green book). But if'n it says the same thing, I'm going to bust out the blushing smiley.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The answer to the Saint Helena Breviary question is on p. 292 of the monastic edition:
If [the Fourth Sunday in Advent] falls on December 24, Matins and Diurnum are as on Christmas Eve, p. 295, except the Collect, which is of Advent IV below [p. 292]. Vespers is I Vespers of Christmas, p. 306.
quote:Ah. In that case, the green book says it on p. 101:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
I'll have to wait until I go home from work and check mine (I've got the green book). But if'n it says the same thing, I'm going to bust out the blushing smiley.
quote:Yes. It's clearer with the BCP than with the SHB we've been discussing because the BCP clearly separates the "Christmas Eve" (=I Evensong of Christmas) psalms and lessons from the MP of "Dec. 24," meant to be used on whatever weekday that date is. Since that date is the Fourth Sunday in Advent this year, the "Dec. 24" MP provision gets trumped by those of Advent IV.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
So from a BCP perspective, I take it I pray Advent IV Mattins and then First Evensong of Christmas?
quote:Oo...sorry. I should have spotted that.
Originally posted by moveable_type:
LQ, you mean the Canadian 1962 BCP, don't you? I think Scott is referring to the American one.
quote:Yes, but the answer remains the same, right?: Advent IV Mattins and I Evensong of Christmas.
Originally posted by moveable_type:
LQ, you mean the Canadian 1962 BCP, don't you? I think Scott is referring to the American one.
quote:Hello, ConsAnglican. You have discovered one of the hidden gems of the breviary world. I am constantly drawn back to DPotC for the very reasons you mention.
Originally posted by ConsAnglican:
I just received Daily Prayer of the Church in the mail yesterday and it is a wonderful resource. ...It is, in my view, the best breviary I've seen.
quote:My first comment, before any of this takes place, is that Pastor Pfatteicher simply must be involved.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Time will tell, I guess, but I'll keep you posted if I hear anything more. If there is a public comment process, as there was with the other ELW resources, comments from Shipmates with experience in using the daily offices may be very helpful in the production of the volume.
quote:Agreed. Most of his work can easily be imported. Why reinvent the wheel? I'm a bit concerned, though, because DPotC was not published through AF or with direct involvement of the ELCA Worship staff. Perhaps there has been a falling out.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
My first comment, before any of this takes place, is that Pastor Pfatteicher simply must be involved.
quote:No, but to be fair I am on a b-commerce moratorium so it's just as well.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Soooo....
Did anyone's Christmas "haul" contain a shiny new breviary?
quote:Yes, that's exactly what we use for our second lesson at EP except on BCP holy days, when we use the two Biblical lessons appointed.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
J. Robert Wright. Readings for the Daily Office from the Early Church (New York: The Church Pension Fund, 1991) may be what you have in mind. It tracks the current ECUSA daily office lectionary. Yes, it's easy to use.
quote:Good to hear, since it's already been ordered anyway.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Yes, that's exactly what we use for our second lesson at EP except on BCP holy days, when we use the two Biblical lessons appointed.
quote:It might help to know it's very difficult to find (the one in our sacristy is from the rector's personal library) and that the Wright book is a lot better.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I'll pretend I didn't see that mention about the UK book, especially since I also didn't see the price.
quote:The readings are indeed mainly from The Divine Office , but the book is specifically designed for the use of Anglicans, adapting the readings to the Calendar of the ASB 1980 and adding others for non-RC feasts. The book was edited by Brother Kenneth and other members of the Community of the Glorious Ascension, an Anglican religious order.
the UK Roman Catholic publication, From the Fathers to the Churches
quote:Yes, it helps. I'd rather search for an elusive inexpensive copy of Galley's PBO instead, or use my efforts to encourage AF and Churchwide to get started on a more comprehensive breviary.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:It might help to know it's very difficult to find (the one in our sacristy is from the rector's personal library) and that the Wright book is a lot better.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I'll pretend I didn't see that mention about the UK book, especially since I also didn't see the price.
quote:I saw this in the outpost of St. Stephen the Great for the first time the other day - it looked very interesting, but still kept all of those strange idiosyncracies of the BCP that prove so annoying. I think I prefer the wider Western pattern in these respects.
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
I almost bought the English Office today, but couldn't tolerate the missing propers for some Marian feasts (e.g. Presentation, Queenship, Seven Dolors) and the absence of the Table of Lessons.
quote:Bartolomeo, your other thread is a good idea. Hopefully it is something that can be safely archived along with the daily offices thread.
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Are any shipmates aware of any other musically-oriented office materials that make use of metrical (rather than chant) settings? I have the RCSM book which includes a number of such settings but which I don't find to be musically satisfying.
quote:The Dec. 31 provision is really for a weekday; this year, it falls away and yields to the Sunday provision (for Morning Prayer) and then the Eve of Holy Name (for Evening Prayer).
Originally posted by tributary:
Quick question about Morning and Evening Prayer on Dec. 31. The 1979 BCP has lessons for the first Sunday after Christmas, and MP lessons for 12/31 and EP lessons for "Eve of Holy Name." Given that this year, first Sunday after Christmas and Eve of Holy Name are the same day, which set of lessons takes precedence?
(This problem is going to come up again with Epiphany and Eve of the First Sunday after Epiphany...)
)
quote:
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
So I walked away with a mint copy of the Prayer Book Office that I managed to pay $38 for.
quote:<green-eyed smilie here>
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
So I walked away with a mint copy of the Prayer Book Office that I managed to pay $38 for.
quote:I've since recovered, but yes, I was in quite a state. Finding a mint PBO on a bookshop shelf and getting it at cost would probably put me over the edge. I'd have to have someone hold the bag containing the book while I did backflips or pirouettes or seizures, or all three.
Originally posted by Martin L:
BTW, I think you just sent Scott into a panic.
quote:Y'know, behaviour like that might just encourage the seller to harden their position on the price. Best save it till you're out of the shop.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I've since recovered, but yes, I was in quite a state. Finding a mint PBO on a bookshop shelf and getting it at cost would probably put me over the edge. I'd have to have someone hold the bag containing the book while I did backflips or pirouettes or seizures, or all three.
Originally posted by Martin L:
BTW, I think you just sent Scott into a panic.
quote:Crossing mine, too! Wonder how fresh that page is.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
On the Saint Meinrad Music site there is a link to the Saint Meinrad Antiphonale. The link is presently not active. Crossing my fingers.
quote:Regrettably, the Kyriale on the site is labelled 2003....And the fonts exist but aren't linked to. But then, I'm a natural pessimist by nature.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Crossing mine, too! Wonder how fresh that page is.
quote:I'm sorry...this is not how I would ever want to start Lauds:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I don't see any reason offhand why you shouldn't use the site.
quote:Loved the reading on Monday by the Celtic abbot, Columbanus. It was our second lesson at Evening Prayer. Enjoy!
Originally posted by Martin L:
I have received my copy of Readings for the Daily Office from the early church and I am very satisfied with it. Thanks, TSA and Scott!
quote:MM, no less a Roman Catholic luminary than Dorothy Day used a combination 1928 BCP/1940 HYMNAL for her daily offices toward the end of her life (I can cite a source if you give me a few minutes). She preferred it to the complex offices of the Roman Breviary; she did not offer an opinion on the LOTH.
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Picking up on Ditzyspike's reference earlier to the Short Breviary, does anyone have any experience of this work? I am considering (at some indeterminate point in the future) moving on from my current reading of the Little Office and, in looking for a traditional RC office in a language I can understand, am finding the prospect of this (in the 1941 or 1954 editions, I think) rather appealing. Would you recommend me to consider any other options? Any thoughts would be most gratefully received.
quote:
MM, no less a Roman Catholic luminary than Dorothy Day used a combination 1928 BCP/1940 HYMNAL for her daily offices toward the end of her life (I can cite a source if you give me a few minutes). She preferred it to the complex offices of the Roman Breviary; she did not offer an opinion on the LOTH.
I have bounced around quite a bit in terms of Office use myself, but, perhaps inspired by "St." Dorothy's example, have settled for the most part on a discipline that may meet your preferences as well. I c/p the daily 1928 MP and EP from one of the two main online sources into a document, then paste the Hymn, V/R, Antiphon to Ben. or Mag., and collects and commemorations from the online Roman Breviary in their appropriate places. This approximates the format of the ENGLISH OFFICE, which I have also used on and off, but is easier to set up quickly and cut out any flippity.
For little hours and Compline I either use the online Breviary or the fixed hours found in an edition of the old MANUAL OF CATHOLIC DEVOTION that I bought from a certain gentleman of some repute.
quote:With the reading by Clement yesterday, it is hard to believe the Catholic Church is so closed-minded about ecumenism.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Loved the reading on Monday by the Celtic abbot, Columbanus. It was our second lesson at Evening Prayer. Enjoy!
Originally posted by Martin L:
I have received my copy of Readings for the Daily Office from the early church and I am very satisfied with it. Thanks, TSA and Scott!
quote:Snap! I looked at it once (before I had found this thread or started saying any regular office myself (as simple as the Little Office is)) and the rubrics made my eyes water, so I gave up...
Originally posted by Divine Office:
In addition, I have a 1950 edition of The Day Hours of the Church of England, which is fairly similar to the SSJE book in that it is largely based on the Sarum offices. I attempted to use it for Vespers during Advent, but found the rubrics rather complex with regard to the correct office hymns, commemerations etc. It is still an extremely interesting office book, though.
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:What was the reading, and can i find it on the web?
Originally posted by Martin L:
With the reading by Clement yesterday, it is hard to believe the Catholic Church is so closed-minded about ecumenism.
quote:Yes...I think Daily Prayer would be highly successful. You need a separate psalter with it, though. Still, I think that age group could get a lot from this office.
Originally posted by BroJames:
Is it appropriate to ask on this thread whether people have any UK oriented suggestions for introducing young people to a pattern of daily prayer incorporating liturgical material? I think the full CW Daily Prayer is too much (even for many adults, frankly). But there seems to be hardly anything readily available for the use of the 10+ age group.
quote:It's St Clement's first letter to the Corinthians, XXXI to XXXIII.
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:What was the reading, and can i find it on the web?
Originally posted by Martin L:
With the reading by Clement yesterday, it is hard to believe the Catholic Church is so closed-minded about ecumenism.
quote:Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have a look at this. It's not exactly pocket money price, but more affordable from Amazon. I'd be encouring them to have some pattern of engagement with the Bible as well so not having Psalms/Readings in the book itself wouldn't necessarily be a problem.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Yes...I think Daily Prayer would be highly successful. You need a separate psalter with it, though. Still, I think that age group could get a lot from this office.
Originally posted by BroJames:
Is it appropriate to ask on this thread whether people have any UK oriented suggestions for introducing young people to a pattern of daily prayer incorporating liturgical material? I think the full CW Daily Prayer is too much (even for many adults, frankly). But there seems to be hardly anything readily available for the use of the 10+ age group.
quote:The learnèd Shipmate Scott Knitter has undoubtedly suggested a perfect resource, BroJames. He has pointed me and countless others in the direction of many a book.
Originally posted by BroJames:
Is it appropriate to ask on this thread whether people have any UK oriented suggestions for introducing young people to a pattern of daily prayer incorporating liturgical material? I think the full CW Daily Prayer is too much (even for many adults, frankly). But there seems to be hardly anything readily available for the use of the 10+ age group.
quote:Bless you for this affirmation, Martin.
Originally posted by Martin L:
The learnèd Shipmate Scott Knitter has undoubtedly suggested a perfect resource, BroJames. He has pointed me and countless others in the direction of many a book.
quote:Tedious? Surely not! (This is coming from someone who has gone through the lectionary and the bible making a complete table of what's included and what's omitted, though.
Originally posted by Martin L:
(This is coming from someone who would have a great time doing the tedious task of compiling a brevibreviary, though!)
) .quote:I don't have a copy of the personal edition, so I can't comment about the differences between the two.
Originally posted by Tom S:
They seem to expect you to have a finger in about four sections at once – and often having done that you have to then search for a two line antiphon in yet another section...I was just wondering how other people had overcome this, and how the Monastic Edition differs?
quote:Ah - I had a feeling it was something like that, thank you. Basically I'm suffering from being a graduate from CWDP/CCP where Epiphany is a season (or as good as one) and therefore gets some great material in its own right.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The time after Epiphany is ordinary time, essentially, even though we're not into the numbered propers yet. So no daily proper antiphons; you simply stick with the ones in the two-week psalter.
quote:Tom S--somewhere on this thread, I think, Scott Knitter cited a new Daily Office edited by the Community of Saint Francis in San Francisco: http://www.communitystfrancis.org/ . I used their old one at an SSF retreat once and quite liked it. Might be worth an inquiry to see if they'd sell you a copy.
Originally posted by Tom S:
Perhaps I really want a Franciscan edited version of the SHB - I wonder if they're open to suggestions?
quote:They certainly will sell you one. I think it was about $60. It's a fine amalgam of concepts from the BCP 1979, Daily Office SSF, and The Prayer Book Office. Very durably bound and quite easy to use. I especially like the wide selection of canticles and their appointment to each day just like the psalms. Psalm distribution is the seven-week one of the BCP 1979, just presented a bit differently.
Originally posted by lukacs:
quote:Tom S--somewhere on this thread, I think, Scott Knitter cited a new Daily Office edited by the Community of Saint Francis in San Francisco: http://www.communitystfrancis.org/ . I used their old one at an SSF retreat once and quite liked it. Might be worth an inquiry to see if they'd sell you a copy.
Originally posted by Tom S:
Perhaps I really want a Franciscan edited version of the SHB - I wonder if they're open to suggestions?
quote:Yes to both. The CSF Office Book 2006 is approximately the same size (and color!) as the St Helena Breviary, Personal Edition. It includes and fully uses the BCP79 daily lectionary; it's just laid out a bit differently, with lessons, psalms, and canticles all given in one place for each day in Year 1 and Year 2.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Is the Community of Saint Francis office book portable? Does it include the BCP79 daily lectionary?
quote:dyfrig, some versions of the Bible include just such a pattern in their recommended daily Bible readings sections. I know I have seen at least one Zondervan NIV Bible that included it this way, among others.
Originally posted by dyfrig:
This may be a rather bizarre query, but does anyone know of a schema for reading the Psalms which appoints one psalm (or two short ones, or portions of long ones) for reading per day, assuming a single "office" said daily?
quote:Thanks for the details. Sorry about the confusion on the lectionary question. I do mean the citations for the Bible lessons. I tend to use the term lectionary in this way because BCP79, C. of E. Common Worship, and others do so. Having all the lessons printed out is convenient but makes for a fat book (plus often I like to read the whole passages as well as switch to different translations).
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Um, I'm thinking now that by lectionary you mean the lesson texts? No, just the citations for referencing the texts in a Bible or separate lectionary book.
quote:Ooooooh, you think you're so clever with your clever clevernessness, now that you're an oh-so-clver host, with your cleverly clever answers. Oooooh [wags index finger]
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
You mean an official schema that someone has published? As opposed to just starting at the beginning, and reading two if they seemed very short that day, or just reading a portion if it seemed very very very very long?
quote:Plainsong and Medieval Music Society published a collection of the solemn and simpler melodies to the antiphons. They follow the medieval melodies strictly and translate the text to fit the music. Generally quite well done but the opening of alma redemptoris sounds like the neighing of a horse.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone know of a little booklet or pamphlet that contains the four Marian Anthems? I'm lookiong for something that can be stuck in a BCP or handed out at a public Compline service.
quote:I've seen a copy of this on sale on eBay in the past. It was used at Taize when the offices were rather more traditional than now, possibly around 1968.
Has anyone come across a thing called "The Taize Office" which Faith Press seem to have published some time in the mid 60s?
quote:Try this:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
If you have the 'Smart Music Viewer' for your browser, you can get the Marian antiphons (probably in Latin) from the Choral Public Domain Library at www.cpdl.org. Just click on 'Score subcategories' and 'Chant'.
Trouble is, I can't seem to find the 'Smart Music Viewer' for download. There may be no 'free reader' of this format. If someone knows differently, please do tell!
quote:Managed to get my grubby little paws on a copy through this magical interweb thingy.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
quote:I've seen a copy of this on sale on eBay in the past. It was used at Taize when the offices were rather more traditional than now, possibly around 1968.
Has anyone come across a thing called "The Taize Office" which Faith Press seem to have published some time in the mid 60s?
From what I remember from the page scans, the layout of the offices was not unlike the current RC LOH. I think there were orders for Lauds, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers and Compline. I'm not sure which version of the psalter was used, though.
Nowadays, I think the offices at Taize are far more fluid, with less emphasis on a formal breviary or office book.
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:Thanks for your description of this. I have a somewhat crinkly but otherwise pretty good copy of this complete edition. While I hesitate to criticize the new Benedictine Daily Prayer (which is a successor to A Short Breviary), I think it would have done well to stay close to Heidt's format and include tones, and provide for full use of the psalter. That said, BDP is a most useful and worthy breviary, but the leaving out of many psalms is troubling to me personally.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
My 3rd Complete edition of 'A Short Breviary' (Ed William Heidt, OSB) arrived. It is a shortened form of the Roman Office.
quote:I can see from this table that the Complete Edition adds 60 psalms but that some are still missing.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'm assuming, of course, that the complete version of Heidt's book has all 150 psalms, but I don't know that for sure.
quote:She really likes the Camaldolese tones. Listening to them would be a good preview, too, of the upcoming Lauds and Vespers book from New Camaldoli Hermitage, to be published by Liturgical Press. Any time now...
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I recently discovered a series of lessons on Learning to Sing the Psalms by Cynthia Bourgeault, author of the recently published book Chanting the Psalms that has been mentioned by others.
quote:I believe the notation will be exactly like that. The tones are notated that way in the Italian book from Camaldoli, Italy, too, although the tones for the psalms in Italian typically have one more quarter note at the end, as Italian more often ends on an unstressed syllable (vowel).
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
It will be interesting to see if the New Camaldoli Hermitage Lauds and Vespers book uses modern musical notation as shone in Bourgeault's online lessons and books. I found their tones very easy to use and a nice way of dealing with the three-line strophes in the Grail psalms. So far, my main difficulty with the Gregorian notation is knowing what the pitch is. Perhaps I need to invest in a pitch pipe. Sitting at the keyboard detracts from my praying!
quote:I've prayed Vigils, Lauds, and Terce from the BDP today, thanks to your reminder. Wonderful readings and antiphons!
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Did anyone read the Vigil office for St Scholastic from Benedictine Daily Prayer? Amazing set of texts!
quote:It is most certainly a special charism of the Anglican churches to widely publish its daily offices and to expect and encourage members, lay and ordained, to pray them. At least one prominent Roman Catholic scholar (Taft) on the Liturgy of the Hours has written that the current RC office has been a missed chance: while the current Liturgy of the Hours can be obtained and used by laity, it's still set up largely as a breviary for clergy in that it requires procurement of a separate set of books, is complex to navigate, etc.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
In any event, I'm looking for a simple table of lections for the divine office for the Lenten season as I can find in an Anglican prayer book of most any stripe and on dozens of web sites. Is it a special charism of the Anglican churches to widely publish its lectionaries?
quote:Here you are. I started with Ash Wednesday and ended with Easter Sunday- the readings are from Exodus for the first 4 weeks and from Hebrews during what used to be Passiontide. The schema does not take into account interruptions by solemnities (St. Joseph and the Annunciation) From Monday within the Easter octave the readings are from the Epistles (Peter)
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Thanks for the urls, LQ, but they're not quite what I'm looking for.
I finally found the readings for Ash Wednesday on the www.breviary.net site, but I have utterly failed to do so on the universalis site.
In any event, I'm looking for a simple table of lections for the divine office for the Lenten season as I can find in an Anglican prayer book of most any stripe and on dozens of web sites. Is it a special charism of the Anglican churches to widely publish its lectionaries?
quote:According to the General Instruction for the Liturgy of the Hours, the 2 year cycle (which hasn't yet seen the light of day-though I have heard that there is a list of some sort at the back of Christian Prayer-can't confirm) is supposed to incorporate Deut/Hebrews for Year I and Ex/Lev/Numbers in Year II, with Holy Week occupied by Songs and Lamentations (Year I) and Jeremiah (Year II)
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Bless you RCD. The ECUSA OT lections are either Deut./Jer. or Gen./Ex. depending on the year. I'm glad I didn't assume there might be commonality. I'm to preach at morning prayer for some of the weekdays in Lent and need to get cracking with the texts.
quote:Indeed, at least some editions of Christian Prayer list the two-year cycle of Biblical readings in back. For a two-year cycle of both Biblical and patristic readings at the Office of Readings, just try to find a copy of each volume of The Word in Season, from Augustinian Press. I believe Saint Meinrad Archabbey uses this series for its lessons at 5:30 a.m. Vigils. Not easy to find this series; I've got most of the volumes but not all, and I'm not sure all of the volumes have ever been published.
Originally posted by RCD:
According to the General Instruction for the Liturgy of the Hours, the 2 year cycle (which hasn't yet seen the light of day-though I have heard that there is a list of some sort at the back of Christian Prayer-can't confirm) is supposed to incorporate Deut/Hebrews for Year I and Ex/Lev/Numbers in Year II, with Holy Week occupied by Songs and Lamentations (Year I) and Jeremiah (Year II)
quote:From where did they get this do you know? Does it follow the format outlined in the General Instruction for the two year cycle or is it something completely different?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Indeed, at least some editions of Christian Prayer list the two-year cycle of Biblical readings in back.
Originally posted by RCD:
According to the General Instruction for the Liturgy of the Hours, the 2 year cycle (which hasn't yet seen the light of day-though I have heard that there is a list of some sort at the back of Christian Prayer-can't confirm) is supposed to incorporate Deut/Hebrews for Year I and Ex/Lev/Numbers in Year II, with Holy Week occupied by Songs and Lamentations (Year I) and Jeremiah (Year II)
quote:Alas, my regular copy of Christian Prayer is hiding from me. I found only my large-print copy, and the two-year Biblical reading plan is one of the things apparently jettisoned to save space in that edition. But I'm sure it was the same two-year cycle described and frequently mentioned in the General Instruction (which appears in the first volume of the four-volume LoTH).
Originally posted by RCD:
quote:From where did they get this do you know? Does it follow the format outlined in the General Instruction for the two year cycle or is it something completely different?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Indeed, at least some editions of Christian Prayer list the two-year cycle of Biblical readings in back.
quote:I thought it good enough to purchase one to use and one to be a backup.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Is Monastic Diurnal Revised a good purchase? Is it noted or not?
quote:Thank you Scott! Your sage advice comes in handy so often. I will also order the Holy Triduum volume.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I really like the slim Holy Triduum volume; this came in handy several times when I've prayed during the night watch between Holy Thursday and Good Friday in church. One year a fellow parishioner and I chanted Good Friday Matins that night...took the whole hour.
quote:Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office has this provision as well. Yes, it's a last chance to say Alleluia before Easter.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I note that the CofE CW Evening Prayer today (Shrove Tuesday) has some "alleluias" added at the end. I can't find any justification fo this in the CW:DP book, but I assume it's done as a last chance to say the "a" word before Easter. Is this usual (or even correct, by CW:DP standards)?
quote:I can't remember if I asked for the Triduum vol., when I ordered my MDR over the phone. I don't think I did, but they kindly sent it along anyway, at no extra charge.
Thank you Scott! Your sage advice comes in handy so often. I will also order the Holy Triduum volume.
The hardcover is no longer available; I got a spiral bound copy. I guess I'm glad they did, now that Lent is upon us.
quote:Thanks! Good to know!
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:I can't remember if I asked for the Triduum vol., when I ordered my MDR over the phone. I don't think I did, but they kindly sent it along anyway, at no extra charge.
Thank you Scott! Your sage advice comes in handy so often. I will also order the Holy Triduum volume.
quote:Similarly, for Shrove Tuesday Vespers the Saint Helena Breviary has the extra alleluias and even has a hymn about leaving alleluia behind for Lent. One stanza is as follows:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I note that the CofE CW Evening Prayer today (Shrove Tuesday) has some "alleluias" added at the end.
quote:A rubric in CW:DP on page 423 says:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I note that the CofE CW Evening Prayer today (Shrove Tuesday) has some "alleluias" added at the end. I can't find any justification fo this in the CW:DP book, but I assume it's done as a last chance to say the "a" word before Easter. Is this usual (or even correct, by CW:DP standards)?
quote:The Monastic Diurnal Revised also has this provision, which I used last night.
I note that the CofE CW Evening Prayer today (Shrove Tuesday) has some "alleluias" added at the end. I can't find any justification fo this in the CW:DP book, but I assume it's done as a last chance to say the "a" word before Easter. Is this usual (or even correct, by CW:DP standards)?
My bank account hates you. But a grudging thank you from me though, for all the many tips and insights.
quote:Dear Wilfried:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I prayed vespers and matins from the St. Helena Breviary yesterday and today, and found it beautiful. The propers for Ash Wed. were lovely, and the psalms appointed for Wednesdays also fit the occasion. I also loved the hymn with "Alleluias we now forfeit," while singing a gazillion alleluias. I had a hella time trying to sing it though; my range isn't that broad and I can't sight read to save my life.
I figure perhaps this newbie ought to introduce himself by saying that he's been lurking round these parts for a while now, and blames you all for turning him into a breviary junkie like the rest of you.
Nice to finally meet you, sort of.
quote:Thank you for the information. Clearly I should have looked harder - in this case, to the page with Collect for the previous Sunday. One of my niggles with CW is the number of different places notes and instructions are shown, making it hard to work out even things that ought to be straightforward (working out which items are mandatory for a Service of the Word, for example).
Originally posted by T.B.Cherubim:
quote:A rubric in CW:DP on page 423 says:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I note that the CofE CW Evening Prayer today (Shrove Tuesday) has some "alleluias" added at the end. I can't find any justification fo this in the CW:DP book, but I assume it's done as a last chance to say the "a" word before Easter. Is this usual (or even correct, by CW:DP standards)?
On Shrove Tuesday, 'Allaluia, alleluia'may be added to the final versicle and response at Evening Prayer.
After Night Prayer on Shrove Tuesday, 'Alleluia' is not said again until Easter Day
quote:I share the niggles. Also, one of my pet peeves with CW:DP is that with all the options there is no provision for the office of the dead. There are times when, having just heard of the death of a friend or acquaintance for instance, that such an office is what is needed. It is quite a mission to try to piece it together in CW. Any suggestions?
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:Thank you for the information. Clearly I should have looked harder - in this case, to the page with Collect for the previous Sunday. One of my niggles with CW is the number of different places notes and instructions are shown, making it hard to work out even things that ought to be straightforward (working out which items are mandatory for a Service of the Word, for example).
Originally posted by T.B.Cherubim:
quote:A rubric in CW:DP on page 423 says:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I note that the CofE CW Evening Prayer today (Shrove Tuesday) has some "alleluias" added at the end. I can't find any justification fo this in the CW:DP book, but I assume it's done as a last chance to say the "a" word before Easter. Is this usual (or even correct, by CW:DP standards)?
On Shrove Tuesday, 'Allaluia, alleluia'may be added to the final versicle and response at Evening Prayer.
After Night Prayer on Shrove Tuesday, 'Alleluia' is not said again until Easter Day
quote:That seems to be part of a general reticence in C of E materials to pray explicitly for the dead.
Originally posted by T.B.Cherubim:
Also, one of my pet peeves with CW:DP is that with all the options there is no provision for the office of the dead. There are times when, having just heard of the death of a friend or acquaintance for instance, that such an office is what is needed. It is quite a mission to try to piece it together in CW. Any suggestions?
quote:True enough, yet CW Pastoral Services has some very fine suggestions for prayer, both at time of death and before the funeral, quite apart from the funeral liturgies themselves, so I would have thought that a judicious selection of canticles, psalms and prayers, might be possible without harming the sensibilities of some (few?) CoE members.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
That seems to be part of a general reticence in C of E materials to pray explicitly for the dead.
If so, I think it may not be for me.
quote:Hello, Ana! Welcome! It's good to see somebody else local posting.
Originally posted by Ana:
Forgive me for what may seem like a silly question, but I'm new to all this, and have noticed that, since we entered Lent, Compline from Common Worship has suddenly become the same every night. Same gospel reading, same psalm, same collect!
Is this actually the case?
quote:Compline is traditionally largely unvarying. I supposed partly because in ancient times it was said after dark, and thus mostly from memory! CW:DP still holds out the possibility of unvarying Compline every day of the year.
Originally posted by Ana:
Forgive me for what may seem like a silly question, but I'm new to all this, and have noticed that, since we entered Lent, Compline from Common Worship has suddenly become the same every night. Same gospel reading, same psalm, same collect!
Is this actually the case?
quote:Yes: "The Monastic Diurnal adapted to our use." - From Anglican Religious Communities Year Book: Fifth International Edition 2006-7.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone know what form of office the US houses of All Saints Sisters of the Poor use?
quote:I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US:
quote:Are you familiar with Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office, an out-of-print enrichment of the 1979 BCP Rite II offices? The English Office does something similar with the C of E 1662 BCP offices. It adds antiphons, versicles and other traditional enhancements to the bare-bones BCP offices.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
quote:You can use the '79 Lectionary with the ENGLISH OFFICE, but it takes a little adjusting. The problem is that the '79 Lectionary sets forth three readings a day, rather than four, which was the standard for most other office lectionaries. The ENGLISH OFFICE is organized around two readings for MP and EP, with the traditional canticles to follow. If you read one '79 lesson in the morning followed by the Benedictus, and cut out the Te Deum altogether, you can do it. It's easiest to go with the 30-day psalm schema as well.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
quote:Yes, that's the one currently reprinted by LA Press. Wish I knew more about their adaptations; I did find another site for them, and it has some good contact info.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Scott--thanks as always, re: All Saints Sisters of the Poor. Would that be the same MONASTIC DIURNAL reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press? Do you know the difference between the Sisters' adapted usage and the normal usage?
quote:I saw a copy at the General Theological Seminary library (and I looked at some other liturgical stuff that made me drool). Would that I could find a copy for less than $200. Why oh why do such things go out of print? I always imagine it's political, that it's somehow theologically or otherwise unpleasing to the powers that be. It occurs to me that my sponsor for confirmation works for Church Publishing, hmmm...
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Are you familiar with Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office, an out-of-print enrichment of the 1979 BCP Rite II offices?
quote:I never answered some of your points here...sorry!
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US:
quote:Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway: Please share whatever you find out!
Originally posted by lukacs:
Scott--I'll write the Sisters and see what I can suss out about their usage of the DIURNAL. We might be sending a delegation of parishioners there on retreat, so I have a good pretext for finding out what they're in for Office-wise.
quote:I highly recommend these instructions as well.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Ditzyspike, if you haven't already, you may well want to join the AB Yahoo Group, on which a kind member posts ordos and all manner of questions are answered.
quote:God love you lukacs. I've just finished orderin mine.
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US.
quote:Always volunteer in church. I was helping clear out some old storage on Tuesday night. Lo and behold in the bottom of a box of old books - not one, but TWO copies of A Prayer Book Office.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:I saw a copy at the General Theological Seminary library (and I looked at some other liturgical stuff that made me drool). Would that I could find a copy for less than $200.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Are you familiar with Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office, an out-of-print enrichment of the 1979 BCP Rite II offices?
quote:It's best to start out simple. Eventually, once you've made it around the lectionary a couple of times and once you've gotten more comfortable with the rhythm of the office, you might see yourself supplementing more and more. Daily Readings from the Early Church suits me well for this purpose.
Originally posted by MattV:
I am perfectly content with just using the 3 readings in the lectionary. The only non rubrical thing I do is say the Angelus.
quote:Without any personal experience of the LOTH, I found myself naturally attracted to the older forms. I started by simply praying my way through the appointed psalms in the Oxford Psalter (solely because I happened upon a copy and it suddenly stuck me as a good practice to adopt.) Then I stumbled upon a copy of the pre-Vatican II Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and started to pray Matins and Vespers from that. I think I also had, in the back of my mind, some advice from a friend to the effect that if I ever wanted to graduate to praying the full breviary, the LOBVM was a good primer in the general form of the offices.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Here's an interesting question for RCs:-
How many of you prefer to use other forms of the daily office for personal recitation rather than the official Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours?
For example, does anyone prefer to experiment with Anglican forms such as Common Worship; Daily Prayer or the 1979 ECUSA BCP for reasons of better liturgical language or a better biblical lectionary?
I think it was mentioned that the RC writer Dorothy Day preferred to use the 1928 ECUSA BCP for these reasons.
Also, do others prefer more traditional forms of the RC office, such as The Monastic Diurnal as reprinted by Farnborough Abbey Press?
Any comments would be interesting.
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:RCD, have you gotten any answers? (I haven't spotted any on this thread yet -- or have I missed it utterly?)
Originally posted by RCD:
Can anyone recommend a good online (and free) resource for seasonal psalms according to a/the liturgical year?
quote:Thanks, Autenrieth Road.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:RCD, have you gotten any answers? (I haven't spotted any on this thread yet -- or have I missed it utterly?)
Originally posted by RCD:
Can anyone recommend a good online (and free) resource for seasonal psalms according to a/the liturgical year?
The (US) Episcopal Sundays (& seasons) lectionary, plus their Daily Office lectionary, are available online. These include psalms. But I see you are Roman Catholic, plus I'm not sure what you mean by 'seasonal psalms', so I don't know if that would be of help?
[P.S. Are you asking for just the table of which psalms, or do you want the text of the psalms as well?]
quote:Can we not be jubilant in Lent, even without the "A-word"? As my rector aptly put it in a newsletter, "God is not asking us to strike a bargain: God has already given us everything."
Originally posted by RCD:
too jubilant for Lent.
quote:This is the Church of England "Prayer During the Day" provision (for people who only want a single office). In the seasons it provides a weekly cycle (plus an "any day" seasonal psalm), and in ordinary time it provides a cycle for each day of the week.
Originally posted by RCD:
I was hoping to be pointed to ones which might "tailor" the Office a little more to include psalms appropriate to the season as well.
Tables will be fine.
quote:You'll find that some here chant, while some don't. I, too, find it hard to concentrate on the text while chanting, especially if I am sight-reading Gregorian neumes, so I prefer reading/speaking as well. However, with practice at certain tones, I've gotten to the point where I am familiar enough to pull them out for special occasions.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Another question: Do folks chant the offices? It sounded like a good idea to me, but hasn't worked out very well, even though I've chanted in church and on retreats, so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me. However, my musical skills are none too stellar, and my sight reading is rudimentary at best. I find I spend an inordinate amount of time working out the tunes, yet when I get to actually praying, I still don't get it right. I also find that when I sing I don't pay attention to the words. Even when singing hymns in church, I finish and have no idea what had just sung. Chanting has become more of a distraction than an aid, so for the moment I've given up on it and settle for a said office. I was just wondering how this works for other folks?
quote:Nothing wrong with a said office. If you want to chant, you can keep it simple and just chant most things on one note, and use a familiar chant tone for the psalms and canticles.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Another question: Do folks chant the offices? It sounded like a good idea to me, but hasn't worked out very well, even though I've chanted in church and on retreats, so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me. However, my musical skills are none too stellar, and my sight reading is rudimentary at best. I find I spend an inordinate amount of time working out the tunes, yet when I get to actually praying, I still don't get it right. I also find that when I sing I don't pay attention to the words. Even when singing hymns in church, I finish and have no idea what had just sung. Chanting has become more of a distraction than an aid, so for the moment I've given up on it and settle for a said office. I was just wondering how this works for other folks?
quote:When I'm not worried it'll bother the housemates, I'll chant (read: lately, whenever I feel like it). Otherwise, I'll say it or even read it silently ('cause I don't care if the people I live with are jerks about being noisy when others are sleeping, 6am is too early to be chanting or talking loudly).
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Another question: Do folks chant the offices? It sounded like a good idea to me, but hasn't worked out very well, even though I've chanted in church and on retreats, so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me. However, my musical skills are none too stellar, and my sight reading is rudimentary at best.
quote:Thanks dyfrig: very foolishly I had not looked at the PDTD from CW, only Morning and Evening Prayer
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:This is the Church of England "Prayer During the Day" provision (for people who only want a single office). In the seasons it provides a weekly cycle (plus an "any day" seasonal psalm), and in ordinary time it provides a cycle for each day of the week.
Originally posted by RCD:
I was hoping to be pointed to ones which might "tailor" the Office a little more to include psalms appropriate to the season as well.
Tables will be fine.
quote:I must admit my mind is reeling with all manner of strange ponderings as how to read the Moon under the letter l: but what does it actually mean?
Throughout the year 2007,
the Moon is read under the letter "l"
quote:Look here, for example. Underneath the letter l, it says 16, so March 5th is the 16th day of the moon.
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
A question, wise ones, if I may.
While looking at a link a friend sent me to The Roman Martyrology, my eye caught this:
quote:I must admit my mind is reeling with all manner of strange ponderings as how to read the Moon under the letter l: but what does it actually mean?
Throughout the year 2007,
the Moon is read under the letter "l"
Dyfrig.quote:Thanks Hart. But I fear you'll have to be even more basic with someone like me. What does "the 16th day of the moon" mean? -- it is 16 days into the new moon? Is the Roman Martyrology Breviary based on the cycle of the moon?
Originally posted by Hart:
Look here, for example. Underneath the letter l, it says 16, so March 5th is the 16th day of the moon.
quote:No worries.
Originally posted by RCD:
Thanks dyfrig: very foolishly I had not looked at the PDTD from CW, only Morning and Evening Prayer
quote:Here is a thread about the Gregorian lunar calendar.
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:Thanks Hart. But I fear you'll have to be even more basic with someone like me. What does "the 16th day of the moon" mean? -- it is 16 days into the new moon? Is the Roman Martyrology Breviary based on the cycle of the moon?
Originally posted by Hart:
Look here, for example. Underneath the letter l, it says 16, so March 5th is the 16th day of the moon.
quote:
This is the Church of England "Prayer During the Day" provision (for people who only want a single office).
quote:
Question time! I only have a hazy notion what a proper or a preface is. Am I supposed to be using them in EP according to the 1979 BCP?
quote:The part of the propers that one would use at the office is the collect of the day, if there is one, or of the preceding Sunday, if there isn't.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Question time!
I only have a hazy notion what a proper or a preface is. Am I supposed to be using them in EP according to the 1979 BCP?
(If so, where the blankety-blank are they?)
quote:The things generally called "propers" and "prefaces" have to do with Mass (Eucharist), not the daily office, so not EP, if that stands for Evening Prayer, as I think it does. These terms aren't used in connection with the Office in the 1979 BCP.
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Question time!
I only have a hazy notion what a proper or a preface is. Am I supposed to be using them in EP according to the 1979 BCP?
(If so, where the blankety-blank are they?)
quote:Welcome, PostDenominational Catholic, to one of the best threads aboard Ship.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
Just a query: someone is going to give me a copy of Galley's Prayer Book Office, but I am also curious about Daily Prayer of the Church, as I have a copy of the LBW:Minister's Desk Edition. Am I right in saying both are supplementary to the 1979 prayer book and the LBW, respectively? Do you think that DPotC is better than the Franciscan office I now use?
Thanks.
quote:If by Rober Taft's book you mean
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I am a really new user, and I must say that this thread is really up my alley. Ever since I read Robert Taft's book on the subject, I have been praying the office--I think that was as early as 2001.
quote:That's excellent, and I hasten to recommend in addition George Guiver's excellent Company of Voices: Daily Prayer and the People of God.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
If by Rober Taft's book you mean
this one, then I agree it is an inspiring work.
quote:Yes, I am aware of that. It's frighteningly hard to find, as many of the posts attest.
First, I seriously hope you are aware of what a good gift you are receiving. Galley's PBO is very valuable and highly in demand right now.
quote:I hope so too. DPotC has been mentioned on this thread a number of times, so it's piquing my curiosity.
Second, you are right in saying that PBO is supplementary to BCP79 and DPotC is supplementary to LBW. I'm sure someone else will be along to compare DPotC to CCP, a purchase which I have been avoiding. (I know, it's only a matter of time.)
quote:I actually own DPotC. It is CCP that I have been avoiding.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
DPotC has been mentioned on this thread a number of times, so it's piquing my curiosity.
quote:Yes, I understand that it is the modern reprint.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
In case anyone is interested, there is currently a copy of the Anglican Breviary for sale on eBay for the buy-it-now price of £18.
I suspect that it will be the recent reprint rather than an original edition, but it still seems like a pretty good bargain.
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:Interesting. I am reminded of a big church in my RC university campus which does not have daily services--and is only used on very few occasions. I've often wondered whether instead of staying a white elephant, the church should host a celebration of the offices.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Princeton University has Solemn Vespers in its University Chapel every Sunday evening at 5:45 following the RC campus ministry's 4:30 celebration of Mass. Both the Mass and Vespers are accompanied by a Gregorian Schola, made up of Princeton students. I think any campus Catholic ministry would do well to follow its "last chance" Sunday Mass with Vespers or Compline, and recover this important element of Catholic practice.
quote:At Ascension, Chicago, our daily Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer average about 16-18 minutes each, and it's the full BCP 1979 office, each with two lessons and two canticles. All said, not sung.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I recently visited my friend, who is deputy chaplain of an Anglican school south of the Philippines capital. They celebrate Morning Prayer--a very simplified form, he says, because it is exactly fifteen minutes long--in their chapel, but only ten people show up and it is mostly not the faculty.
quote:Well this is edition of the English Office is entirely disappointing. I'm glad to have the text in a volume I don't feel guilty about handling, but this volume is simply inferior to my expectations.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:God love you lukacs. I've just finished orderin mine.
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US.
quote:One proverb holds that "church without music is like marriage without sex--possible, but not to be expected or encouraged". Another proverb holds that one should "cut one's coat according to one's cloth." I think each of these maxims can apply in proportion.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
Considering that the Anglican tradition (and to some extent the Roman one) has emphasized the celebration of the offices, how often is it being celebrated in Anglican schools, and how should they do it? Would Roman Catholic schools and universities do well to introduce such practices?
I'm looking for practical ideas in that respect.
quote:We use the psalms as appointed in the Daily Office Lectionary. We include the ones that are bracketed for optional omission.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Scott Knitter's place has got this exactly right. Under twenty minutes, without individual variation by officiant. Three collects only; very brief intercessions, if any at all. Folk aren't looking for a meaningful experience; some of us are still on our journey to consciousness at that hour of the morning and don't need the tailoring new officiants sometimes bring to their day. Our crowd runs closer to twenty minutes, though. Scott, does your lot read the Psalms in course or from the Daily Office lectionary?
quote:Welcome, Fr PD!
Originally posted by PD:
It may be something to do with the High Church tradition here, but I tend to find that the daily Office here is poorly attended except when the Eucharist follows. Then I have a certain element which decides, "well I am off to Mass, so I might as well get there for Mattins/Evensong." We have stuck with the 1928 BCP, and the - uck! - 1944 Lectionary which means that MP and EP last about 18 minutes.
quote:I meant to add to my reply the configurations of our hymn-boards for today's offices:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Scott, does your lot read the Psalms in course or from the Daily Office lectionary?
quote:The local Episcopal congregation has just started giving the offices greater emphasis. It is now understood by all that Morning Prayer will precede the first morning liturgy of the day, and Evening Prayer will precede the first evening liturgy of the day. They allow a fifteen minute margin, but it only typically takes about ten, and it is all spoken. Because the Holy Communion follows, they omit whatever they are allowed to omit (Lord's Prayer, Creed if the Nicene Creed is appointed for the day), to be used later.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
I think the great liturgical project of the next few centuries will be to recover a place for the Office, one that does not displace the Eucharist from its central role but complements it.
quote:Correct!
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
The lesson I learn from the Chapel is that a congregation that wants to begin using the daily office should not try to do too much all at once. If there is no Office, try scheduling one or two a year. If there's one or two a year, try going to a monthly schedule. If there's a monthly schedule, try starting a Morning Prayer service on Sundays at 7:00 AM, before the early Eucharist. And so on. And don't let it become dependent on the clergy. It should be something to which the whole congregation is commited to maintaining.
quote:Exactly what my chaplain friend and I believe!
I think the great liturgical project of the next few centuries will be to recover a place for the Office, one that does not displace the Eucharist from its central role but complements it.
quote:I second PDC's thanks to Scott for the tip-off.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I hasten to recommend in addition George Guiver's excellent Company of Voices: Daily Prayer and the People of God.
quote:And Guiver updated his book in 2001. The 2001 edition has the more colorful cover.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
I find it interesting that Giuver's book was written before Taft's.
quote:Compline at St Gregory's Abbey (Episcopal, OSB) in Michigan doesn't include the Nunc.
Originally posted by seasick:
When I was on retreat at a Benedictine monastery recently I read something about their offices. While they use a more modern rite now which includes the Nunc Dimittis, it noted that the traditional Benedictine rite did not. I don't remember anything about the responsory though.
quote:Well, if you will ask these interesting questions just when I have I have a copy of a Benedictine office book readily to hand and a strong urge not to edit the set of minutes I have before me....
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Aha!
Thanks, everyone, for the informative comments, and especially Manipled Mutineer for the detail and research. I shall include them in the places you indicate from the Short Breviary.
quote:Glad you've got an MDR now! I've got three!
Originally posted by Martin L:
I recently received a copy of Monastic Diurnal Revised. It has been quite enjoyable, but one part of it leaves me perplexed.
Why do the proper antiphons for the Benedictus and Magnificat connect to the Gospel from the Eucharistic Lectionary instead of the Gospel from the Daily Office Lectionary? Do the sisters use the Eucharistic Lectionary for the offices?
Gotta have a backup, you know.quote:UPDATE: No need to nag. The CSM sisters' current newsletter tells of trial copies of The Monastic Diurnal Noted Revised being proofread. They've also printed 500 fresh copies of The Monastic Diurnal Revised. I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Now you can join me in nagging the CSM sisters to publish, for sale, their chant book for the MDR. They've been promising for years on their Web site to do so if there's enough interest.
quote:I hope they take you up on the offer. Then you can give us a preview!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
UPDATE: No need to nag. The CSM sisters' current newsletter tells of trial copies of The Monastic Diurnal Noted Revised being proofread. They've also printed 500 fresh copies of The Monastic Diurnal Revised. I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.
quote:I should add that the Celebrating Common Prayer version of Compline suggests just that. The local Benedictine abbey uses a Marian anthem at the end of their conflated Vigils/Compline service, as far as I know, and I think also Nunc Dimittis.
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I should have added that the Short Breviary has only a single versicle and response preceding "Visit, we beseech Thee" but interpolates one of four anthems of our Blessed Lady* with versicle, response and prayer before "May the divine assistance."
* "Hail! Queen of heaven" at the moment, and until Compline of Wednesday in Holy Week.
quote:Thank you Scott and DitzySpike. Ten years ago, I never would have imagined I'd have access to some of the most knowledgeable breviary fans in the whole world.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
It is usual to draw the gospel antiphons from the gospel text for the mass of the day. In the older breviaries, patristic commentaries for mattins are taken from homilies on the day's gospel so there's another connection bringing together the Mag/ Ben antiphons and the lessons read at Mattins.
quote:They have! And I shall!
quote:I hope they take you up on the offer. Then you can give us a preview!
Originally posted by Martin L:
I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.
quote:Correct on all counts, in my humble opinion! The MDR (as its predecessor, the Monastic Diurnal) has the historic Quinones breviary as a significant influence as well, especially for their three-psalm single nocturn at Matins. While the new book calls the whole morning office Matins, the structure of Matins and Lauds is easy to see within it, as there's a second batch of two psalms on a weekly schedule, which are the Lauds psalms.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Would I be right in thinking that the psalm distribution amongst the daily offices in the Monastic Diurnal Revised is fairly similar to that in Benedictine Daily Prayer? I think there are some differences, though, such as the joining of Mattins and Lauds in the MDR.
I suspect that both of them may owe a great deal to the current Benedictine schema, as now found in Latin in the new edition of the Antiphonale Monasticum published by the Abbey of Solesmes.
quote:That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:They have! And I shall!
quote:I hope they take you up on the offer. Then you can give us a preview!
Originally posted by Martin L:
I've already written to Mother Miriam to ask to be an MDNR proofreader and to thank the sisters for their MDR, being used and worn out by many out in the world, including the Order of St Anne at our parish.
quote:I e-mailed Mother Miriam, and she said they'd be glad to send me the music if I helped out with costs, suggesting $20. Gladly.
Originally posted by Martin L:
That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?
quote:I've sent your question to Mr Kershaw whose name is attached to that site, and I shall report back.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Can anyone tell me what table of lessons is used in the online 1662 BCP office hosted by the C of E at the following page:
http://tinyurl.com/29mowv
Is it the "Order for the Eucharist and MP and EP 2007" published by SCM/Canterbury?
quote:If it's the same as the Italian office (that of what might be called "Old Camaldoli"), there's Vigils, Lauds, Midday, and Vespers, each divided into two weeks: even weeks and odd weeks. Compline psalms are on a weekly cycle.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I’m now looking that much more forward to the release of New Camaldoli’s Lauds and Vespers book. For those of you familiar with their office, how many weeks of variations does their psalter have?
quote:I may be wrong, being only a liturgical and Daily Office novice, but regarding Compline on Holy Saturday:
Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*
With the Holy Triduum almost upon us, it might be interesting to have a break-down of which offices we should and should not be saying. I suppose I could look this up, but for posterity it should be posted here. Do we sing Vespers on Maundy Thursday? Is Compline a no-no on Holy Saturday? Who among us can post the break down? (Extra points for those doing it from memory.)
quote:lukacs, My edition is:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Here's a link to the English 1922 Revised Tables of Lessons. I have heard but cannot confirm that the old editions of the ENGLISH OFFICE included far more dedicated lessons for feast days:
http://tinyurl.com/2nddb6
quote:Hi, TSA. The quote in my sig comes from the preface to the Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity. I found the quote from a selection of the Laws from some online selections from the Norton Anthology of English Literature, which may be found here:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Ecce Quam Bonum, could you give the curious among us a cite for your sig?
quote:The rubrics in Celebrating Common Prayer, as does those of the current Roman office, says that "Night Prayer is not said by those who attend the Easter Vigil." I am ministering at the Easter Vigil, so I will not say Compline.
Originally posted by Ecce Quam Bonum:
quote:I may be wrong, being only a liturgical and Daily Office novice, but regarding Compline on Holy Saturday:
Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*
With the Holy Triduum almost upon us, it might be interesting to have a break-down of which offices we should and should not be saying. I suppose I could look this up, but for posterity it should be posted here. Do we sing Vespers on Maundy Thursday? Is Compline a no-no on Holy Saturday? Who among us can post the break down? (Extra points for those doing it from memory.)
It seems to be prohibited where the Easter Vigil is celebrated.
quote:The Order for the Celebration of the Eucharist... does indeed have the CW lectionary for the Office and the Eucharist, but it also has the 1922 readings for Matins and Evensong in the far right-hand column, as I remember.
Divine Office, I just assumed that "The Order for the Celebration of the Eucharist . . . " was the same as the three-year CW lectionary. It's actually the 1922 Tables?
quote:The Hereford Breviary of 1505 clearly indicates Compline on Holy Saturday. (Page 323 of this edition.) It includes Alleluias, so they expected it to take place after the Vigil.
Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*
Is Compline a no-no on Holy Saturday?
quote:I'm using her book to conduct a workshop on contemplative prayer using the psalms tomorrow. Her chapter on the 'yoga' of chanting gives good advice. I've not done contemplative prayer workshops with middle school kids so I'm crossing my fingers.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Cynthia Bourgeault’s Chanting the Psalms arrived on my doorstep today. Leafing through the book and listening to a few tracks on the CD, I am starting to really like the New Camaldoli approach to chant. Their version of the Benedictus and changing doxologies are quite nice too.
Blessings,
JSB
quote:Ah, but we are not necessarily outside of the Roman communion, per se, but rather in an imperfect communion with them, in the opinion of the Roman Catechism.
Originally posted by Patrick:
Those outside the Roman Communion have no reason to slavishly adhere to relatively recent liturgical stipulations, IMHO.
quote:Unfortunately, there is no conclusive answer to this. It really depends on which breviary you are using. The overall opinion seems to be that the Gloria Patri should be saved until the end of the Psalter portion at Compline, but I believe I've seen it after every Psalm.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.
Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.
I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.
quote:Thanks for this, Martin L.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Unfortunately, there is no conclusive answer to this. It really depends on which breviary you are using. The overall opinion seems to be that the Gloria Patri should be saved until the end of the Psalter portion at Compline, but I believe I've seen it after every Psalm.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.
Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.
I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.
In other words, let the debate begin.
quote:The general rubrics in my copy of the Hours of the Divine Office simply state (much as in Choirboy's Monastic Diurnal) that "at the end of each psalm and canticle except the canticle Benedicite the Gloria Patri is said." I can't see anything in the Ordinary or the Psalter for Sunday (for example) which would abrogate this in the case of Compline. A Short Breviary has much the same provision.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:Thanks for this, Martin L.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Unfortunately, there is no conclusive answer to this. It really depends on which breviary you are using. The overall opinion seems to be that the Gloria Patri should be saved until the end of the Psalter portion at Compline, but I believe I've seen it after every Psalm.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.
Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.
I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.
In other words, let the debate begin.
Current resources to hand are The Monastic Diurnal and Compline as used at Christminster.
The MD doesn't indicate any Gloria (but then usually doesn't anyway, so that means nothing). Also, its rubrics don't indicate that the psalms at Compline are to be done any differently from those at the other offices, except to say that there is no antiphon.
Christminster has the Gloria at the end of the first psalm but not the others. Perhaps the first psalm is seen as setting the precedent for how the others are to be executed, with the intention that each should conclude with the Gloria.
I know that psalters set psalms 4, 91, and 134 to the same psalm tone, which seems to indicate something of a unity. Then again, this may well be because Compline is the last Office before bed, would have have traditionally been said with little light and when the monks were tired and really not in the modd to be fussing about with variations on psalms and chants, so that may not necessarily be indicative of anything either.
My instinct is to do it after each psalm and I think I'll stick with that until I find something that tells me to do otherwise.
quote:I would think the second is more likely.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
After listening to endless hours of the Psalms of David set to Anglican chant from various great choirs, I can't imagine not having the GP.
Maybe it's just one of those things that is too jarring due to it's familiarity to be redone as inclusive-language, so omission is the inclusive response.
Or maybe they just find it repetitive, especially in offices with several psalms per canonical hour.
Or possibly both.
quote:When it it a Lutheran hymnal committee, then I'd agree with you. Of course, how many Lutheran hymnal committees have people that are actually knowledgeable about the offices at all? (Wait a minute,...don't answer that!
Originally posted by John H:
I get the general impression that there's a bit of a move afoot among those who write these offices to downplay/abolish the Gloria Patri after psalms generally, not just at Compline.
)quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
When I celebrated the Office with the local Anglican seminary, I noticed that they do not. When I celebrated this with the monks of the local Benedictine abbey, they did.
Sounds like what the local Methodist congregations do--stand up, sing a vigorous Gloria Patri, and then sit down again 15 seconds later!
quote:No data either way by way of support, I guess. I could see inclusivity being at least part of the reason in a book specializing in inclusive language. The whole Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier thing seems to be aging poorly. I have had some folks in a parish setting ask to tone down the number of Gloria Patri's for inclusivity sake. As the only required spots (as near as I can tell) in the ECUSA '79 service are at the precis and at the end of the psalmody, that's what we do.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I would think the second is more likely.
quote:We do at our place and at the daily Evensong I attend at another place.
Another thing worthy of asking: when the Office is publicly celebrated, does anyone rise (and bow) at the GP?
quote:You need to procure a copy of St. Helena Breviary, if it has not been done so already. Then, after gawking at it for a couple of weeks, actually start using it. It will be jarring at first, but eventually the sisters will win you over with their deft and respectful use of inclusive language.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I have had some folks in a parish setting ask to tone down the number of Gloria Patri's for inclusivity sake.
quote:The Hereford Breviary of 1505 (page 92) states that at Compline
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question
Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.
quote:that is in English,
post unumquemque psalmum dicitur Gloria Patri,
quote:My battered Breviarium Romanum under Rubrici generales XXII.6, states that Gloria Patri is ordinarily said after each psalm, except for Psalm 63 and 148 and 149 at Lauds, which are combined respectively with psalms 67 and 150. Also the Gloria Patri is not said during the Triduum or in the Office of the Dead.
Gloria Patri is said after each and every psalm.
quote:I'm not sure about the inclusive-language explanation. The GP remains intact in other parts of these office liturgies (e.g. at the beginning, or after the canticles). Though perhaps the repetition grates with those who can just about cope with the "exclusive" language for the Trinity in moderation, but find that repeated use in the psalms just rubs it in too much.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Maybe it's just one of those things that is too jarring due to it's familiarity to be redone as inclusive-language, so omission is the inclusive response.
Or maybe they just find it repetitive, especially in offices with several psalms per canonical hour.
Or possibly both.
) and the GP normally calls my attention back to the proceedings...
quote:Not a Dead Horse, as it doesn't meet the criteria.
Originally posted by John H:
(Of course, one reason the "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" language hasn't caught on is because it's - ahem - heretical. But I guess that's taking us towards Purgatory/Dead Horse territory.)
quote:Sorry for breaking the comment flow, but I can't wait any longer. Have you received it yet, Scott?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I e-mailed Mother Miriam, and she said they'd be glad to send me the music if I helped out with costs, suggesting $20. Gladly.
Originally posted by Martin L:
That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?
quote:I always bow at the GP. Even if I am sitting, I will incline forward. (Though the latter may not be proper.)
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
when the Office is publicly celebrated, does anyone rise (and bow) at the GP?
quote:Possibly...I'm on a business trip and will get home tomorrow and report back. I'm also awaiting an American Missal.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Sorry for breaking the comment flow, but I can't wait any longer. Have you received it yet, Scott?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I e-mailed Mother Miriam, and she said they'd be glad to send me the music if I helped out with costs, suggesting $20. Gladly.
Originally posted by Martin L:
That was fast! Was it just out of the blue or do they know you well?
Glad it's payday tomorrow.
quote:Speaking of payday, do you know how much the new Mundelein Psalter is going to set us back?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Possibly...I'm on a business trip and will get home tomorrow and report back. I'm also awaiting an American Missal.
quote:I believe it's 50 clams, but I think I got in on the early-order price of $40. Either way, I don't think we'll be seeing one in every pew in most parishes. Hope it really catches on and that it can be published in a more economical version.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Speaking of payday, do you know how much the new Mundelein Psalter is going to set us back?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Possibly...I'm on a business trip and will get home tomorrow and report back. I'm also awaiting an American Missal.
quote:Well, St. Bert, it appears conflicting things are also in the present as well. It seems like "traditional" breviaries expect the GP after every Psalm, while the more "modern" (post-Vat 2 era) ones do not. That means the decision is entirely up to you, although you could always go with the "When in doubt, sing it out" plan!
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
I have another Compline question, I fear.
Does each of the psalms of Compline end with the Gloria, do they all come under one Gloria at the end, or is there simply no Gloria at all.
I have heard conflicting things in the past and my present resources do not shed any light on the matter.
quote:Unfortunately for my wallet, $50 has begun to seem rather economical in the world of breviaryitis. I don't even know why I keep buying them. I have plenty to keep me from boredom, but each new one is so intriguing. Even though I can keep to one for a liturgical season, it usually doesn't last much longer than that.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I believe it's 50 clams, but I think I got in on the early-order price of $40. Either way, I don't think we'll be seeing one in every pew in most parishes. Hope it really catches on and that it can be published in a more economical version.
quote:"God Unbegotten, God Begotten, God Proceeding" is formally orthodox, if a little dry. Still, my preference is to stick with the Prayer Book.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I could see inclusivity being at least part of the reason in a book specializing in inclusive language. The whole Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier thing seems to be aging poorly. I have had some folks in a parish setting ask to tone down the number of Gloria Patri's for inclusivity sake. As the only required spots (as near as I can tell) in the ECUSA '79 service are at the precis and at the end of the psalmody, that's what we do.
quote:I'm not sure it's even orthodox when put in that context. Those technical theological terms are there to ensure a proper understanding of the revealed terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To use them instead of the revealed terms obscures the truth of the "three Persons" and gets us back towards a picture of one Person behaving in three different ways.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
"God Unbegotten, God Begotten, God Proceeding" is formally orthodox, if a little dry. Still, my preference is to stick with the Prayer Book.
)quote:but everyone else says the "traditional":
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen
quote:This has always struck me as one of the more pointless modernizations of language. The new version is not significantly more modern than the old one.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
quote:I've a feeling the UK edition of the LOTH does use the "glory be ... world without end" version.
Originally posted by FCB:
I've been waiting for someone to start using, "Glory to the First Person of the Trinity, and to the Second Person of the Trinity, and to the Holy Third Person of the Trinity, as it was. . ."
On a more serious note, I've notices that among RCs, only those who pray the Liturgy of the Hours use the "modern" version (and then, only when doing the Hours):quote:but everyone else says the "traditional":
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amenquote:This has always struck me as one of the more pointless modernizations of language. The new version is not significantly more modern than the old one.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
I suspect that future translations of the Hours might revert to the old form, since the new form has never really caught on among the plebs.
quote:Saint Meinrad Archabbey and some other places that use or have used the Grail Psalter have some different versions that work better with Grail-appropriate psalm tones like the Jelly Roll or Saint Meinrad tones. Here's what they say at the Archabbey:
Originally posted by John H:
I've a feeling the UK edition of the LOTH does use the "glory be ... world without end" version.
quote:It does.
Originally posted by John H:
I've a feeling the UK edition of the LOTH does use the "glory be ... world without end" version.
quote:Simon Kershaw was away for a while but has responded to your question, lukacs:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I've sent your question to Mr Kershaw whose name is attached to that site, and I shall report back.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Can anyone tell me what table of lessons is used in the online 1662 BCP office hosted by the C of E at the following page:
http://tinyurl.com/29mowv
Is it the "Order for the Eucharist and MP and EP 2007" published by SCM/Canterbury?
quote:
The calendar used is largely the modern Common Worship daily lectionary,
the same as is provided for the modern language services except for a
few days where that lectionary specifically provides a different reading
or psalm for use with BCP-1662 services.
quote:A fellow parishioner who was a parish organist for many years said he organized a Great Paschal Vespers in one of his parishes, and 200 people turned out.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I'd like to know if anyone celebrates a special kind of solemn Evensong for Easter, much like the Great Paschal Vespers in the Galley book. Is there an equivalent service in Daily Prayer of the Church?
quote:I would guess that GPV may also work as a midweek service, right?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:A fellow parishioner who was a parish organist for many years said he organized a Great Paschal Vespers in one of his parishes, and 200 people turned out.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I'd like to know if anyone celebrates a special kind of solemn Evensong for Easter, much like the Great Paschal Vespers in the Galley book. Is there an equivalent service in Daily Prayer of the Church?
Usually, though, such a service is seen as a lovely idea but one liturgy too many at the end of a long week (and the beginning of another, if you have daily services for Easter Week).
GPV can be done on the Sunday after Easter (Low Sunday) as well, and that may work better in many parishes.
Some very traditional RC and Anglo-Catholic parishes will do a Solemn Evensong or Vespers on Easter Day. Ours might be expected to, but won't. Everyone's had enough of going to church for the week!
quote:Certainly it could be done on any evening in Easter Week. It might also be argued that any day in Paschaltide would be appropriate. But I think the intent is that it be done on Easter Day, in Easter Week, or on the first Sunday after Easter.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I would guess that GPV may also work as a midweek service, right?
quote:Thanks for the helpful advice! I'm thinking of organizing such a celebration sometime in Paschaltide.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Certainly it could be done on any evening in Easter Week. It might also be argued that any day in Paschaltide would be appropriate. But I think the intent is that it be done on Easter Day, in Easter Week, or on the first Sunday after Easter.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I would guess that GPV may also work as a midweek service, right?
quote:The General Instruction does say that when the Liturgy of the Hours is celebrated in public, a longer reading may be chosen. I would generously interpret this rubric to say that readings from the Office of Readings can be used.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Just attended Morning Prayer for Good Friday in my local RC church. It was basically MP from the LOH but with the two readings from the Office of Readings.
I thought it worked rather well. If a lay person (not a priest) was accustomed to using MP from the LOH on a daily basis, would it be permissable to use the OOR lections in this way rather than just the short reading from MP?
I know one could say the full OOR followed immediately by MP, but this would be a little bit on the long side for most mornings.
What do other people think? Not sure what the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours says about this, but I've a feeling that some monastic communities may do something like this, eg the abbey at Collegeville in the USA.
DIVINE OFFICE
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I think others have complained about Church Publishing publications here before, so I thought folks could commiserate.quote:Be persistent with Church Publishing, as their quality standards (or those of their printers) are notoriously deficient. Defective is defective; they shouldn't care who bought the book. I complained loudly about a whole signature of pages that fell out of my copy of the St Helena Breviary Personal Edition within a month, and they sent me a new copy (which may well have the same defect, but I haven't used it).
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Well, when I tried to use it, and couldn't find the rite I morning prayer canticles, I discovered that some 40 pages are missing!
quote:If they use the old Breviarium Monasticum, yes, I own that, and got it via eBay from a convent that was auctioning off many copies some years back. But it may be that they've developed their own edition conformed to their use. Clues to this seem to be the term Vigils rather than Matins and Liturgy of the Hours rather than Divine Office. Or maybe they use the current Latin Liturgia Horarum? Would be worth asking them...let us know what you find out!
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone know if the Latin LOTH cited in the following link is available for lay purchase? (Scott, do you own this one?)
http://www.monksonline.org/liturgy.html
quote:From this photo, it looks like they use giant antiphonaries, perhaps something akin to the Antiphonale Monasticum, which is available from GIA. What they use may be a special Cistercian edition of that Antiphonale but quite similar.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone know if the Latin LOTH cited in the following link is available for lay purchase? (Scott, do you own this one?)
http://www.monksonline.org/liturgy.html
quote:Thanks for the review! It's hard to avoid purchasing something described as groovy!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Well, The Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition: A Companion Volume to the Monastic Diurnal Revised, edited by Community of St Mary, Eastern Province, Greenwich, New York, has arrived in a draft edition, and it's groovy.
quote:TBTG?
Originally posted by Choirboy:
3. The psalter is essentially the BCP '79, with some modifications (e.g. 'Blessed' rather than 'Happy' TBTG)
quote:Do you need the rules? Could you just use the saints etc. days as noted on the common Kalendar that I see everywhere (the one with colored days, and notes on the back of each month's calendar page)? Or is this from the point of view of having the volume be completely explained within itself? (Or something else...?)
8. The rules of occurrence and concurrence are not well described in my view, even though the system is the simplified First, Second and Third class feast idea from the post-1962 Roman breviary, laid over the few rules in the prayer book for Feasts of Our Lord.
quote:Thanks be to God.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
TBTG?
quote:Printed Kalendars, such as the Churchman's Ordo, almost suffice in that they probably handle the problem of occurrence - i.e. when two feasts fall on the same day. For example, if a feast falls on a Sunday in Lent, which office do you do - like this year when Annunciation fell on a Sunday. The Churchman's Ordo just transferred that feast to Monday, which is what the BCP rubric says should happen.
Do you need the rules? Could you just use the saints etc. days as noted on the common Kalendar that I see everywhere (the one with colored days, and notes on the back of each month's calendar page)? Or is this from the point of view of having the volume be completely explained within itself? (Or something else...?)
quote:So possibly the 3 Prayerbook lessons go at Terce, Sext and Vespers. If so, that is very, very odd. It also means that concurrence becomes an issue for the readings at Vespers, as you point out.
Suggested short readings have been provided for Matins and Compline. Readings for the other Offices and for feasts may be taken from the Prayer Book lectionary or other sources. A few general short readings have been provided in the Appendix and some are suggested in the Proper."
quote:Thanks for your excellent and detailed review of the MDR, my favorite office book. To the points above:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
8. The rules of occurrence and concurrence are not well described in my view, even though the system is the simplified First, Second and Third class feast idea from the post-1962 Roman breviary, laid over the few rules in the prayer book for Feasts of Our Lord.
9. Readings are provided for at every office; two at matins and one each at the others. I will probably use the BCP lectionary with two lessons at matins and one at vespers; don't know what the reading slots at the little hours are for. I may read the martyrology (wrong calendar, I guess) at one little hour and a section of the Rule of Benedict at the other. Or maybe I'll just skip them.
All in all, I think this breviary is an excellent way to liven up the Prayerbook Office, especially for those of us who love to sing the old chant antiphons. The lack of matins music is a bummer, however, especially as the service is somewhat 'morning prayer-ish' and is the longest office of the day.
quote:I use the BCP readings in order at Terce (OT), Sext (Epistle or other NT), and Vespers (Gospel). I believe this is how the CSM sisters do it. At Matins, I rotate through the short lessons given at the back of the MDR (those showing the texts and those with references only) for the appropriate season. This week, though, specific references are given in the Easter Day office.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
If anyone has used the MDR with the BCP lectionary and could let me know how they do readings, I'd appreciate it.
quote:Couldn't you read two lessons at Sext or Vespers? Or would that violate some principle of Daily Office reading? It seems a pity to miss out Saturday, which is generally in course readings with the rest of the week.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Then the three BCP-lectionary lessons are used (on weekdays) at Terce, Sext, and Vespers. On weekends, the first of the three BCP lessons falls away, as there's no Terce.
quote:You certainly could do that, and I think I have on occasion. Doesn't violate any principles if you're praying the office alone, or with some friends who agree to do it that way. I think it even falls within BCP rubrics; at worst, the BCP might require a second canticle if you read a second lesson, and if you're OK with jumping the gun on the Nunc dimittis (as the BCP does, baldly), then no worries.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:Couldn't you read two lessons at Sext or Vespers? Or would that violate some principle of Daily Office reading? It seems a pity to miss out Saturday, which is generally in course readings with the rest of the week.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Then the three BCP-lectionary lessons are used (on weekdays) at Terce, Sext, and Vespers. On weekends, the first of the three BCP lessons falls away, as there's no Terce.
quote:According to Howard Galley, concurrence is when [II Vespers] of one feast falls on the same day as [I Vespers] of another feast. MDR's rubric on that is on p. xxi: "If two feasts overlap at Vespers, the greater is observed and the lesser commemorated. II Vespers ordinarily takes precedence over I Vespers. If a feast falls on a Saturday before a Sunday of equal rank, Vespers is of the feast with a commemoration of Sunday. If the feast on Saturday is of our Lord, there is no commemoration. If a First Class feast falls on a Monday, Vespers on Sunday is II Vespers of Sunday with a commemoration of Monday's feast. If, however, the feast on Monday is privileged and the Sunday is not, I Vespers of the feast is used."
Originally posted by Choirboy:
The ordo does clear up which office to celebrate, but it would be nice to know the principles better since one may wish to add different feasts, as the rubrics mention.
Autenrieth Road's question then is very prescient; what happens with the readings at 1st Vespers when there is concurrence? I generally have done the gospel in the evening but seems odd to leave it out.
quote:However, I must note one departure I witnessed years back--the Benedictine monastic community in Manila celebrated I Vespers for John the Baptist on Sunday evening. Then again, they were in Manila, and John the Baptist is the patron saint of Manila.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:According to Howard Galley, concurrence is when [II Vespers] of one feast falls on the same day as [I Vespers] of another feast. MDR's rubric on that is on p. xxi: "If two feasts overlap at Vespers, the greater is observed and the lesser commemorated. II Vespers ordinarily takes precedence over I Vespers. If a feast falls on a Saturday before a Sunday of equal rank, Vespers is of the feast with a commemoration of Sunday. If the feast on Saturday is of our Lord, there is no commemoration. If a First Class feast falls on a Monday, Vespers on Sunday is II Vespers of Sunday with a commemoration of Monday's feast. If, however, the feast on Monday is privileged and the Sunday is not, I Vespers of the feast is used."
Originally posted by Choirboy:
The ordo does clear up which office to celebrate, but it would be nice to know the principles better since one may wish to add different feasts, as the rubrics mention.
Autenrieth Road's question then is very prescient; what happens with the readings at 1st Vespers when there is concurrence? I generally have done the gospel in the evening but seems odd to leave it out.
An example would be nice: June 24, 2007, we have concurrence of II Vespers of Sunday with I Vespers of the Nativity of St John the Baptist, both days of First Class. Ordo says that Vespers is of Sunday (the II Vespers thus takes precedence) with no commemoration of the feast (as Sunday is a Feast of our Lord). So the observance of the feast begins at Matins on Monday. Luke 1:5-23 for I Vespers of the feast is missed out.
quote:What is observing and what is commemorating?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
MDR's rubric on that is on p. xxi: "If two feasts overlap at Vespers, the greater is observed and the lesser commemorated[....]"
quote:If you're not used to neutral language, it will take some time. Give it a chance for at least one cycle of the Psalter.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
You're welcome. Someone lent me a St. Helena's Breviary, personal edition, by the way. I'll try using it starting Wednesday.
*bump*
quote:I don't know. The only use of them in the US edition is as per the first use you mention, in the Benedictus, where they let you know that just because we're on a new line of text, we haven't left the reciting note.
Originally posted by John H:
Just a very quick question re the LOTH (UK edition). In the psalms, I understand what the asterisks mean at the end of every other line, but what do the little daggers mean?
These are sometimes found at the end of a line where there are two lines before an asterisk (hope y'all are suitably admiring of my grasp of the technical language, here...), but sometimes appear at the start of a line straight after an asterisk, which kind of undermined my assumption that they meant "slightly shorter break than for an apostrophe".
quote:I think the second question is perhaps the answer to the first. But I'm not sure what the answer to the second question is - what do you see as the defining characteristics of secular vs monastic office say 100 years ago?
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
One question. With the diversity in thr ordering of the Divine Office in the monastic communities, is it still fair to maintain the distinction between the monastic and secular office? [...] are there essential characteristics that define it anymore?
, I think.
quote:I've never seen the daggers at the start of a line. In my office books it indicates that you don't leave the reciting note.
Originally posted by John H:
Just a very quick question re the LOTH (UK edition). In the psalms, I understand what the asterisks mean at the end of every other line, but what do the little daggers mean?
These are sometimes found at the end of a line where there are two lines before an asterisk (hope y'all are suitably admiring of my grasp of the technical language, here...), but sometimes appear at the start of a line straight after an asterisk, which kind of undermined my assumption that they meant "slightly shorter break than for an apostrophe".
quote:I've seen this book before on eBay, where I think it fetched a pretty high price.
I feel as though I just got a hard-to-find book at a steal of a price. It's The Prayer Book Office: Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer According to the American Book of Common Prayer With Invitatories and Hymns, Antiphons to the Gospel Canticles, and Other Enrichments pub. 1944 by Morehouse-Gorham Co., New York. Paul Hartzell was the editor.
I was browsing for copies of this, found a few at US$200+, then found one in a California used-book shop for $15.83. Got it shipped for a total of $21.33.
quote:While the English Office primarily draws from the Roman Office, the Hartzell PBO uses mostly Sarum propers, IIRC. Congratulations to Scott for the acquisition.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
It seems very similar in content to The English Office, which was recently reprinted by Canterbury Press, and which was based on the BCP of 1662. Fr Hartzell's work will, of course, be based on the ECUSA BCP of 1928. I suppose it was the inspiration for Howard Galley's updated PBO of 1980, itself now pretty hard to find.
DIVINE OFFICE [/QB]
quote:I guess I tend to categorize the secular office with the Cathedral office, in opposition to the Monastic office. The Cathedral Office uses a fixed sets of Psalms and has plenty of processions, while the Monastic office runs through the Psalter and is far simpler.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I think the second question is perhaps the answer to the first. But I'm not sure what the answer to the second question is - what do you see as the defining characteristics of secular vs monastic office say 100 years ago?
quote:Here's an example (Psalm 64(65) from Week 2, Tuesday, MP). As I don't know how to type a dagger, I'll use a "plus" sign instead:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
I've never seen the daggers at the start of a line. In my office books it indicates that you don't leave the reciting note.
quote:And then there's this from the following day, Psalm 96(97):
To you our praise is due*
in Sion, O God.
+to you we pay our vows,*
you who hear our prayer.
quote:
The Lord is king, let earth rejoice,*
+let all the coastlands be glad.
Cloud and darkness are his raiment;*
his throne, justice and right.
quote:Sometimes markings are used to denote that the last two parts of a four-part chant, for instance, are to be repeated twice in a row. Is this a possibility?
Originally posted by John H:
Here's an example (Psalm 64(65) from Week 2, Tuesday, MP). As I don't know how to type a dagger, I'll use a "plus" sign instead:
quote:And then there's this from the following day, Psalm 96(97):
To you our praise is due*
in Sion, O God.
+to you we pay our vows,*
you who hear our prayer.
quote:
The Lord is king, let earth rejoice,*
+let all the coastlands be glad.
Cloud and darkness are his raiment;*
his throne, justice and right.
quote:I just looked it up in my copy of the UK Divine Office, p. [165].
Originally posted by John H:
quote:Here's an example (Psalm 64(65) from Week 2, Tuesday, MP). As I don't know how to type a dagger, I'll use a "plus" sign instead:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
I've never seen the daggers at the start of a line. In my office books it indicates that you don't leave the reciting note.
quote:And then there's this from the following day, Psalm 96(97):
To you our praise is due*
in Sion, O God.
+to you we pay our vows,*
you who hear our prayer.
quote:
The Lord is king, let earth rejoice,*
+let all the coastlands be glad.
Cloud and darkness are his raiment;*
his throne, justice and right.
quote:There seem to be two divisions of types of offices that often get confused, partly because of the terms:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
In my copy of Jones, Wainwright, Yarnold, and Bradshaw, the distinction between "cathedral" and "monastic" officies applies only to the early history of the office, say for the first five centuries. So when Crichton writes "the distinction between cathedral and monastic office to all intends and purposes no longer exists" (p. 427) he is referring to the difference in the early centuries. He isn't saying that there is no distinction between the developed secular and monastic offices of later times.
quote:I've thought of the offices from Lutheran Book of Worship as "cathedral" offices. Along with what you've said, they seem to emphasize continuity from day to day. Take, for instance, the nightly use of Psalm 141 at Evening Prayer. The use of extra Psalmody is encouraged, of course, but few churches would use more than one additional Psalm.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
There seem to be two divisions of types of offices that often get confused, partly because of the terms:
The first is monastic versus secular; for example, Breviarium Monasticum versus Breviarium Romanum; or Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae versus Liturgia Horarum.
The second is monastic versus "cathedral," and "cathedral" is the confusing term. A modern manifestation of a "cathedral"-style office would be the short offices given in the middle of Celebrating Common Prayer, with a limited psalm repertoire and an emphasis on everyone having a role to play (psalm reader, prayer leader, lesson reader, canticle reader) and a lot of attention paid to the time of day. William Storey of Notre Dame University published a cathedral-style office called Praise God in Song. It's "cathedral" in that it has repetition of psalms from day to day, short readings, and many ceremonial possibilities (candles, processions, incense). Perhaps a better term than "cathedral" is "people's office." It's meant less as a daily discipline than as a praise opportunity for people not bound to a (monastic-type) office.
George Guiver CR's book Company of Voices has good descriptions of and rationale for a renewed people's office.
quote:I'm sure you're more familiar with the book than I, although this makes for a confusing term. If the 'monastic' office effectively replaced the 'Cathedral' office in the first five centuries, then what is the definition of the monastic office of later times? Does one actually speak of a monastic office?
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
He isn't saying that there is no distinction between the developed secular and monastic offices of later times.
quote:I think the main characteristic of a monastic-style office is one in which there's an attempt to cover most or all of the psalter in a week or some other period, such as the USA BCP's seven weeks. A cathedral-style office (that's a confusing term now because it isn't really found in cathedrals, most of which have a monastic-style office if any at all) would have fixed psalms appropriate to morning and evening and would pay more attention to the time of day and the season of the church year; for example:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I suppose one definition would be 'an office used by monastics', I expect, but since a number of them use the standard office of the Roman Catholic church, what does this really mean?
quote:The classical (that is, medieval) monastic and secular rites had different distributions of the psalms, different rotations of hymns, different numbers of readings at nocturns, and some differences in the canticles. Those on ship who have lived in monasteries can confirm (or qualify) whether the weekly distribution of psalms as found in the Rule of Benedict is still used. My guess is that in some places, it is. But Benedict himself states in the rule that anyone who doesn't like his course of the psalms can work out another, so long as the whole psalter is sung in a week. I wouldn't be surprised to find places where this liberty had been used.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
One question. With the diversity in thr ordering of the Divine Office in the monastic communities, is it still fair to maintain the distinction between the monastic and secular office? Given the Benedictine influence over the LOH, the Roman office does look like a variant of the monastic office. Furthermore, true secular/cathedral office seems to have disappeared from practice for a while already,except in the example of the Taize office. The concept of a secular office is polyvalent: are there essential characteristics that define it anymore?
quote:The underlying assumption here is that the entire Psalter should be sung over the course of time: a "monastic" rather than a "cathedral" assumption. Those who have more experience of the office than I have can tell us whether they have found value in making a point of going through the whole psalter. My more limited experience is that if the whole psalter is kept in view, and every psalm, even the terrible psalm 109, is given a hearing at least once in a while, the stronger parts of the psalter can to some extent balance out the weaker parts, while the profound humanity (in both good and not-so-good senses) of the psalms is not swept under the rug.
The heaviest Matins, as the idleness of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries called them, are those of Thursday and Saturday: the former, because it contains the immensely long 78th psalm; the latter as embracing not only the 102nd to the 107th Psalm, all of them long, but also (at Lauds) the Song of Moses, forty-four verses, for the most part of considerable length. Hence the introduction of offices of so-called devotion for those two nights: that of the Blessed Sacrament for Thursday; that of S. Mary for Saturday. By this contrivance, the former, instead of having 421 verses, has only 197; the latter, instead of 452, only 208...Again: as doubles take precedence of ordinary Sundays, the eighteen Psalms of the latter have generally been replaced by the nine of the former; and even on those Sundays which are of the first or second class, dispensations have not unfrequently been allowed, to skip the alternate Psalms. Thus, in point of fact, according to the practice of the modern Roman Church, a Priest is in the habit of reciting about fifty Psalms, and not more; these fifty being on the whole the shortest of the Psalter.
quote:The four psalm-distribution options in the current guideline are linked to this Web page. Scroll down to where "Schema A" through "Schema D" are given. (Psalm numbering is the Septuagint, which is one number lower than the Hebrew numbering, through most of the psalter.) Schema A is the Rule of St Benedict plan. Schema B was revealed in a study by a former Benedictine Abbot Primate to be the one used in more monasteries than A, C, or D. B is particularly prevalent in German-speaking communities, as an excellent monastic breviary uses Schema B.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
The classical (that is, medieval) monastic and secular rites had different distributions of the psalms, different rotations of hymns, different numbers of readings at nocturns, and some differences in the canticles. Those on ship who have lived in monasteries can confirm (or qualify) whether the weekly distribution of psalms as found in the Rule of Benedict is still used. My guess is that in some places, it is. But Benedict himself states in the rule that anyone who doesn't like his course of the psalms can work out another, so long as the whole psalter is sung in a week. I wouldn't be surprised to find places where this liberty had been used.
quote:Though Neale is speaking of the pre-1913 breviary. Still, 9 psalms takes a long time particularly if you want to meditate.
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
The classical secular rite of the Breviarium Romanum still has its friends. Those disgruntled by the modern LOTH seem to hold it in high esteem, but not those only. Whatever might be said for or aginst the LOTH, though, it's probably fair to say that some modification was needed. John Mason Neale, on page 20 of this book, describes some of the evasion techniques that were used to lighten the load of the Roman Breviary office:
quote:The underlying assumption here is that the entire Psalter should be sung over the course of time: a "monastic" rather than a "cathedral" assumption. Those who have more experience of the office than I have can tell us whether they have found value in making a point of going through the whole psalter. My more limited experience is that if the whole psalter is kept in view, and every psalm, even the terrible psalm 109, is given a hearing at least once in a while, the stronger parts of the psalter can to some extent balance out the weaker parts, while the profound humanity (in both good and not-so-good senses) of the psalms is not swept under the rug.
The heaviest Matins, as the idleness of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries called them, are those of Thursday and Saturday: the former, because it contains the immensely long 78th psalm; the latter as embracing not only the 102nd to the 107th Psalm, all of them long, but also (at Lauds) the Song of Moses, forty-four verses, for the most part of considerable length. Hence the introduction of offices of so-called devotion for those two nights: that of the Blessed Sacrament for Thursday; that of S. Mary for Saturday. By this contrivance, the former, instead of having 421 verses, has only 197; the latter, instead of 452, only 208...Again: as doubles take precedence of ordinary Sundays, the eighteen Psalms of the latter have generally been replaced by the nine of the former; and even on those Sundays which are of the first or second class, dispensations have not unfrequently been allowed, to skip the alternate Psalms. Thus, in point of fact, according to the practice of the modern Roman Church, a Priest is in the habit of reciting about fifty Psalms, and not more; these fifty being on the whole the shortest of the Psalter.
quote:I thought the typical Anglican Cathedral office just went through the psalter in course, doing half the days psalms in the morning and the other half in the evening. Perhaps I have that wrong.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I think the main characteristic of a monastic-style office is one in which there's an attempt to cover most or all of the psalter in a week or some other period, such as the USA BCP's seven weeks. A cathedral-style office (that's a confusing term now because it isn't really found in cathedrals, most of which have a monastic-style office if any at all) would have fixed psalms appropriate to morning and evening and would pay more attention to the time of day and the season of the church year;
quote:That's why "cathedral" is confusing; it's a technical term used to describe the people's office with fixed time-of-day-related psalms and lots of singing and ceremonial - but what one experiences now in cathedrals is not that sort but the monastic-style praying of the whole psalter over a month (which is a public offering of a discipline of prayer that used to belong to the cathedral chapter and in some places still does...that's why it doesn't matter if nobody else shows up). And it can be argued that a typical UK cathedral Evensong combines elements of each type.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I thought the typical Anglican Cathedral office just went through the psalter in course, doing half the days psalms in the morning and the other half in the evening. Perhaps I have that wrong.
quote:I think the use of the psalter is probably the main factor: whether the Office is seen as being primarily about praying (all of) the psalms (monastic) or as being primarily about praise of God using several different genres, one of which is a small set of psalms appropriate to the time of day. The "people's office" really does not use many of the psalms. Not even 50, I'd guess, over the church year.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
So what does one call a rite of the office that goes through the entire psalter in a fixed period with lots of ritual/ceremonial? Or is the question of ritual/ceremonial irrelevant?
quote:So I'd say the answer to your question is "monastic." I would say a Taize service is more of a people's or secular office. (Company of Voices, pp. 187-188)
It would be helpful to speak of two poles which sum up quite aptly what the secular/monastic distinction seems to stand for: on the one hand there is worship which aims to attract the worshippers, engage their emotions, and use any appropriate means to enable them to transfer from a state of indifference to one of attention to God. It is specially prepared wholesome food, easily digestible, and coming in doses the person can cope with. This kind of worship is needed, for instance, for those who are in their Christian infancy, not yet ready for solid meat. It is for people passing through a difficult time such as bereavement. It is for those who often find themselves far from a state of inner quiet, such as some busy parish clergy. It can be more necessary when praying alone than with others. And there will always be some people for whom it will be the only way of prayer.
The other pole we can discern is worship as a discipline submitted to in loving obedience and self-giving. It is taken as it comes, and is characterized by a certain sobriety and indifference to frills. It presupposes a degree of commitment, continuity, and ability to be attentive. These two poles could be indicated respectively by the words courtship and covenant. The one courts the worshippers, even to the extent that each act of worship is seen as 'priming the pump', or 'charging the batteries' which in the intervening times are rapidly depleted. The spirit of covenant, however, is more concerned with sustaining that 'prayer-without-ceasing', that constancy in recollection of God in and out of church which was so important to the early Fathers. While one often predominates in the worship of a particular community, it is impossible to have one without at least something of the other.
quote:Yes, in its current state.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Under those criteria the Roman Liturgy of the Hours is a monastic office. No?
quote:Which psalms are sung seems to be leader's choice.
The practices now in use have been recieved with one voice and one mind by all the churches of God. Among us, folk rise by night to go to the house of prayer: even though they have many cares, afflictions, or are yoked with sorrow, still, trusting in God, when they arise from their prayers they proceed to psalmody. They divide themselves into two companies, and sing and chant by turns, at the same time reinforcing their contemplation of the scriptures and readying for themselves an alert mind and a heart free of distraction. Then, forming a single company, as the leader sings, the rest join in. And so they carry on through the rest of the night with a variety of psalms intermixed with prayers. When day breaks, all as though from a single heart sing a psalm of confession to the Lord, each one saying to himself appropriate words of penance. In short, if you shun us because of these things, you shun the Egyptians, those beyond Libya, the Thebans, those in Palestine, the Arabs, the Phoenecians, the Syrians, those who live along the Euphrates; in a word, you shun all those who cherish vigils, prayers, and shared psalmody.
--St. Basil, Letter #207, to the clergy of Neocaesarea
quote:Surely the Magnificat at Vespers?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The Benedictus, perhaps as a metrical hymn
quote:Yes, surely! Pardon my error.
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
quote:Surely the Magnificat at Vespers?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The Benedictus, perhaps as a metrical hymn
quote:Here's the Monastery Podcast.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic: Are there any other daily office broadcasts/podcasts available? I know Vatican Radio does one in Latin, and the Order of St. Luke has a weekly one that incorporates contemporary Christian music.
quote:Famous last words.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
...this will be my last one for a while...
Blessings,
JSB
quote:Is this a replacement for the earlier Monastic Breviary published by the Order of the Holy Cross?
According to their Oblate News, New Camaldoli Hermitage's office book is now available. Its official title is Lauds and Vespers, Including Compline and Additional Acclamations. I am pleased that the price is $25. I've definitely caught the breviary bug, but this will be my last one for a while. It and The Mundelein Psalter should keep me busy for some time to come!
quote:Is this a replacement for the earlier Monastic Breviary published by the Order of the Holy Cross?
Originally posted by Divine Office:
JS Bach wrote:-
quote:Quite. You do realise, JSB, that this thread is actually a thinly-veiled online meeting of "Liturgoholics Anonymous"?
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Famous last words.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
...this will be my last one for a while...
Blessings,
JSB
quote:Martin L and John H, you are so right! I justify it in my own mind by thinking that it is not wrong to spend money on something that furthers my relationship with God. It would be better on the pocketbook to slow down the purchases, however.
Originally posted by John H:
quote:Quite. You do realise, JSB, that this thread is actually a thinly-veiled online meeting of "Liturgoholics Anonymous"?
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Famous last words.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
...this will be my last one for a while...
Blessings,
JSB
quote:This is my problem too. Specifically, I am not a morning person, but for work I must rise long before the sun for most of the year. I cannot do a long office justice, and instead tend to nod off in the middle. Unfortunately, most breviaries seem to keep the long content at the beginning of the day and the shorter stuff at the end. I'm not looking for a radical change, just a better balance and a more manageable Psalter cycle (60 or 90 days would be best for me). I keep gravitating back to the BCP79 offices, but frankly they are rather...utilitarian, shall we say?...and I lose my zeal as a result. As far as PBO, I've never been able to find a manageable price on one, but I sure keep my eyes open.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I haven't found a breviary with a regimen I can keep (either the office is too long or the chant too difficult), so I'm hoping and praying that these latest offerings will help in my quest.
quote:I resonate.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Ever since going on a monastic retreat, I've wanted to chant the office regularly. I haven't found a breviary with a regimen I can keep (either the office is too long or the chant too difficult), so I'm hoping and praying that these latest offerings will help in my quest.
And somewhere there is a perfect breviary. Wonder what that might look like:
quote:[no snigger] Please do, and don't forget the patristic readings, the collects from LFF, the office hymns (with music, of course), and Psalm schemae for wimps (60, 90, 120, yea 150 days!)
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'd better get to work on creating this, eh?
quote:You know, as I review my list, it occurs to me that the closest thing is probably the Contemporary Office Book published by churchpub.org, cleansed from typos and divided into two yearly volumes and furnished with tones and pointing for chanting psalms, canticles, versicles and responses. Then I'd need to add the enrichments from Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office including seasonal and holy-day antiphons, then hymns and tunes from the Saint Helena Breviary or the Monastic Diurnal Revised, and then we're cooking with gas.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Please do, and don't forget the patristic readings, the collects from LFF, the office hymns (with music, of course), and Psalm schemae for wimps (60, 90, 120, yea 150 days!)
quote:Indeed. I think being responsible for compiling a breviary would be just a truckload of fun.
Originally posted by Martin L:
(The worst thing about most breviaries is that you just know one dominating person was the driving force behind them--be it an abbot, an abbess, Sr. Cintra.) How does one apply for such a position?!)
This page shows Sr. Cintra and two other nuns having a truckload of fun. Especially if I got good at Saint Meinrad psalm tones font. "Okay, let's use Tone VIIa for that one...[tappity tap tap]; done. On to the next antiphon..."
quote:Where can one find a copy of these rules, and are they straight forward to apply to the Anglican Breviary as printed?
The Anglican Breviary would be the best option for me provided that (a) I read it according to the 1960/67 Rules...
quote:I know what you mean. I've been using the LOTH (UK, Collins edition) again for a few weeks now. MP and Compline only - I'm such a lightweight.
Originally posted by PD:
The present RC Liturgy of the Hours is about the right length - about 50 to 60 minutes a day, and contains seven offices a day, patristic readings and a four week psalter - all desireable - but the language is banal ... I usually last about a month on it before the translation catches up with me and I can endure it no longer.
quote:That website is interesting. You make a good point, and it's one that I frequently forget here.
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
I realize that for many of us here, this is but trainer wheels, but for a lot of others, it's necessary!
quote:This probably has to do with temperament to a large extent. Some people take naturally to extempore prayer or to meditation/contemplation, and may find the structured approach of the office uncongenial.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Do not become dejected if praying a fixed office does not come natural to you. It is something with which many people struggle ... (Then again, there are always those shining stars who can make anything a success on their first attempt!)
quote:Thanks for the link.
Originally posted by John H:
This probably has to do with temperament to a large extent. Some people take naturally to extempore prayer or to meditation/contemplation, and may find the structured approach of the office uncongenial.
But other people - myself included - find the office a liberating experience after years of struggling with other, more individual forms of prayer and meditation. People in that situation may well find that they take to the office like ducks to water.
See, for example, this post by the blogger Michael Spencer (the "Internet Monk") in which he describes the contrast between liturgical prayer and the spiritual gymnastics of revivalistic "prayer warriors" of his own Southern Baptist tradition.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:You're not alone, Scott. I often find that sort of meditation undermining my prayer life.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
OK, I have a warped mind sometimes.
quote:Are the Camadoli Roman Catholic or Anglican? I can't really tell, and I've never heard of them.
Originally posted by lukacs:
from http://www.camaldolese.com/news.htm :
quote:The 1960 Rubrics are available in a little book called "Learning the New Breviary" by a Fr. Hausmann S.J.. I think the file got uploaded onto the Divine Office site at yahoogroups, so you can have a nosey through it.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:Where can one find a copy of these rules, and are they straight forward to apply to the Anglican Breviary as printed?
The Anglican Breviary would be the best option for me provided that (a) I read it according to the 1960/67 Rules...
Thanks.
quote:They are Roman Catholic, having their roots in Italy. Check out the New Camaldoli Hermitage website for more information about them.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Are the Camadoli Roman Catholic or Anglican? I can't really tell, and I've never heard of them.
Originally posted by lukacs:
from http://www.camaldolese.com/news.htm :
Martin
PS Has anybody received his/her book yet?
quote:Reading the office is part of one's ministerial identity as a bishop, priest, or deacon, so the requirement to read the Office does not take a vacation. I dutifully pack along a BCP and Bible when I go on holiday. I do have to admit to leaving out the Lesser Hours when I am on vacation, but they are not of obligation to Anglican clerics anyway.
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
A question:
What happens when an Anglican clergyperson takes a holiday? Are Anglican clergy still expected to say the Offices while away in the Caribbean, or lounging about in a Swiss chalet?
Are the Offices part of role or identity?
quote:I hope you chanted the psalms and canticles. Any opportunity to use a spot of incense, or were you in a "no-smoking" carriage?
Originally posted by Divine Office:
(I once prayed Mattins with him on the GNER express from Glasgow!)
quote:Thanks for pointing it out, I've just downloaded it. Looks like an interesting adaptation, and, as the compiler admitted, is really intended for individual/small-group use. It might find use, for instance, in a retreat.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I wonder whether anyone has discovered The Expanded Daily Office. It's downloadable as a free PDF or purchase-able as a hardcover book. I'm always keen to see personal adaptations and enrichments of the Office. This looks like a worthy one, although I haven't worked out the psalter scheme yet: it covers 36 days; perhaps an individual just starts at the beginning, regardless of the calendar date, and prays through the psalter every 36 days from then on?
quote:I trust mine was shipped on Saturday (they're shipping once a week); if it went Media Mail rate, there's no telling when it will arrive. Perhaps today.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Our moderator has seen fit to bump far more justifiably obscure threads than this warhorse, so:
Has anyone scored a copy of the Camaldolese office?
quote:I do have a charge from New Camaldoli, so that's in process. Not sure of the Mundelein one from LTP...time to research. It's been a disappointing week in terms of what I got in the post and UPS. Also awaiting a sweepstakes prize (Palm Treo 700p).
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
I didn't have anything charged to my credit card
quote:And lo and behold, a charge has appeared today on my credit card from Liturgy Training Publications for the price of the psalter.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
The expected ship date for The Mundelein Psalter is May 15.
quote:There's another such conference soon.
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Last fall I attended a conference where the Mundelein Psalter was used. It struck me as as one of the best modern English versions of the Psalms, dignified and well-adapted to Gregorian chant.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
quote:Oh, my apologies, I totally misunderstood the conference page. Ss. Peter and Paul in Naperville is a usual haunt of the Joliet Diocese bishops. I made the mistake of assuming, and you know what happens with that!
Originally posted by Martin L:
I looked at the conference page. Ss. Peter and Paul is a fairly big cathedral-sized church that for some reason really impresses me. It gives St. Raymond Cathedral in Joliet quite a run for its money.
I hear Bishop Sartain isn't very Vatican 2, unlike his predecessor.
quote:I can't find Invention of the Cross on any of my calendars for today.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
This evening, I have 1st Vespers of the Ascension (Solemnity) colliding with 2nd Vespers of the Invention of the Cross (Greater Feast).
quote:You wouldn't because we're on different calendars. You are on the Gregorian calendar, according to which today is the 16th of May. I'm on the Julian calendar, so for me today is the 3rd of May, which is the Feast of the Invention.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I can't find Invention of the Cross on any of my calendars for today.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
This evening, I have 1st Vespers of the Ascension (Solemnity) colliding with 2nd Vespers of the Invention of the Cross (Greater Feast).
- sorry fellow Orthodox, I just couldn't resist).quote:Yes, you have a Double II Class (Invention) concurring (overlapping II Vespers with I Vespers) with a Double I Class (Ascension). The Table of Concurrence's verdict is "All of the following, Commemoration of the preceding," which refers to what one does today at Vespers.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
From what I've been able to understand from The Monastic Diurnal, after the Collect of the Ascension, I ought to sing the Magnificat Antiphon from the Invention, followed by the Versicle & Response of the same, and then the Collect of the same.
quote:No, not as such; some members answer questions that come up from time to time, and the moderator sometimes gets answers from Abbot Cuthbert at Farnborough, but there's no weekly ordo.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Speaking of which, Scott (or anyone else), do you know if the yahoo! group for the other Monastic Diurnal (the Farnsborough Abbey one) provides ordos?
quote:Thank you! That's what I ended up doing but without the certainty I have now. I'm sure God coped.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Yes, you have a Double II Class (Invention) concurring (overlapping II Vespers with I Vespers) with a Double I Class (Ascension). The Table of Concurrence's verdict is "All of the following, Commemoration of the preceding," which refers to what one does today at Vespers.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
From what I've been able to understand from The Monastic Diurnal, after the Collect of the Ascension, I ought to sing the Magnificat Antiphon from the Invention, followed by the Versicle & Response of the same, and then the Collect of the same.
Today at Vespers, then, after the Collect of Ascension Day is said the Ant. on Magnificat belonging to the Office of the Invention of the Holy Cross. After the Ant. is said the Versicle after the Hymn of the Office of the Invention, and then is said the Collect of the Invention.
quote:Good job you got it on Ascension Day. Enjoy praying it. UPS and the postal service seem to have abandoned me.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Got my Mundelein Psalter today. Going to play, erm, pray with it now. More to come.
quote:It actually arrived DHL, which is quite peculiar but I'll take what I can get. My suspicion is that you won't have to wait much beyond today. I only placed my order about a week ago, and it actually is farther to ship to me than to you.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Good job you got it on Ascension Day. Enjoy praying it. UPS and the postal service seem to have abandoned me.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Got my Mundelein Psalter today. Going to play, erm, pray with it now. More to come.
Still sitting on my folding chair on the side of the street...
quote:And sadness turns to joy!
Originally posted by Martin L:
It actually arrived DHL, which is quite peculiar but I'll take what I can get. My suspicion is that you won't have to wait much beyond today. I only placed my order about a week ago, and it actually is farther to ship to me than to you.
DHL have just visited me with a box containing the fatter-than-imagined Mundelein Psalter. I'm about to place the ribbon-markers now, always an enjoyable ritual, unless there are not enough markers. Looks like three here; should suffice, I think.
quote:I don't know whether there's a rule about it, but it will be led tonight by our usual Thursday officiant, a lay parishioner. I'll report back if this ends up not being the case.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Huzzah!
Minor tangent: When the bishop is scheduled to celebrate mass, as tonight, who leads the office immediately preceding?
quote:Thank you! I am looking forward to becoming unchained from my job in about an hour and boarding a train to church, where I shall serve as acolyte. I look forward to seeing lots of visitors there, too. And of course praising our ascended Lord.
Originally posted by Forthview:
Scott, I hope you enjoyed the patronal Feast Day of your church.
but I can't say I regret it.
quote:LTP ships books quickly; the Psalter arrived here in the DC area just a day later. It is certainly a large book, about the same size as the St. Helena Breviary: Monastic Edition. New Camaldoli Hermitage's Lauds and Vespers, which arrived yesterday, is similar to a medium-sized church hymnal. It is organized like a hymnal too, with every item numbered consecutively.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Got my Mundelein Psalter today. Going to play, erm, pray with it now. More to come.
quote:Navigation seems to be rather simple with the Mundelein book, but it works under the assumption that one is familiar with the ordinary of the offices. The handy card with the canticles and the Pater Noster is certainly helpful for this purpose, and it also serves as a decent bookmark. I haven't ordered the NC book, so I can't compare it.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I look forward to praying with these books (once I learn to navigate them better) and hearing others' impressions.
Blessings,
JSB
quote:Hi christ stiles, welcome.
Originally posted by chris stiles:
- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?
quote:First, welcome! This is the premier source for all things daily office, although there are some Yahoo groups for praying the office using specific resources. Others here can tell you more in that regard.
Originally posted by chris stiles:
- Firstly, is there a forum somewhere where the liturgy is actually discussed (preferably one where a range of backgrounds/levels of understanding are present). I assumed there might be an Anglican list somewhere, but a hunt around the various Anglican websites does not throw one up.
quote:It's a matter of personal taste, really. Some just pray the office exactly as it is, assuming that they are praying on behalf of or with the whole church. Thus, it is not so strange to pray "The Lord be with you. And also with you." Others choose to do as you mention, changing things to first person singular. Some others change to first person plural, like HM The Queen ("We are not amused"--or for our purposes "Lord, hear our prayer, and let our cry come before you"). Different people prefer different styles.
- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?
quote:I know that the Lutheran Book of Worship and its new successor Evangelical Lutheran Worship contain a Psalm prayer after each and every Psalm, but one must purchase the Ministers Desk Edition of the former or the Leaders' Desk Edition of the latter to obtain such prayers. They are included directly after each Psalm, and all 150 Psalms are included in both resources.
- If I want to incorporate alternate psalms into the office (say in CCP/CDP) is there a source of antiphonal prayers (assuming that is the right word) for each psalm somewhere?
quote:Beware the "bug" -- we like to call it "breviaryitis" around here. It is contagious, most of us here are already infected, and it will cause you to lose weight in the wallet region. It seems like there's always one more book that we all must have. Just when we think we're all caught up on purchases, somebody here mentions that a monastic order is coming out with an update, a revision, or a noted edition. Then it begins again!
Any other tips you might like to add would be gratefully received
quote:You mean besides this one?
Originally posted by chris stiles:
- Firstly, is there a forum somewhere where the liturgy is actually discussed (preferably one where a range of backgrounds/levels of understanding are present).
quote:I'm pleased with the Mundelein Psalter as well: it fills a long-standing need for an easy-to-use sung LotH. But as happens so often these days, typos emerge disappointingly. I've found a misspelling or two (not terrible), but on p. 488, the pointing of Ps. 47 is wrong and doesn't fit the tone. The italics in the first half of each verse happen one syllable too late.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I was rather pleased (and surprised) that the Mundelein book uses the same canticle translations as the LBW canticles with which I am greatly familiar. It has made the transition smooth, along with the very decent Psalter and user-friendly chant notation.
quote:Oy veh! How true this is. I've been resisting the Mundelein Psalter for Lo! these many pages, but I'm about to toddle off and gather up my credit card and find the link and add yet another book to the shelf which mockingly suggests that I actually pray the daily offices regularly.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Beware the "bug" -- we like to call it "breviaryitis" around here. It is contagious, most of us here are already infected, and it will cause you to lose weight in the wallet region. It seems like there's always one more book that we all must have. Just when we think we're all caught up on purchases, somebody here mentions that a monastic order is coming out with an update, a revision, or a noted edition. Then it begins again!
quote:I'm finding myself praying the whole LotH today in a rather natural pattern:
Originally posted by jlg:
Oy veh! How true this is. I've been resisting the Mundelein Psalter for Lo! these many pages, but I'm about to toddle off and gather up my credit card and find the link and add yet another book to the shelf which mockingly suggests that I actually pray the daily offices regularly.
quote:I'm glad you mentioned Psalm 47. I came across it a couple days ago, but assumed it was just my novice Gregorian chant skills that were causing the problem. Trying to compensate by tying the two notes together for the first half of the tone seemed awkward. Now I feel a slight boost in Gregorian confidence.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I've found a misspelling or two (not terrible), but on p. 488, the pointing of Ps. 47 is wrong and doesn't fit the tone. The italics in the first half of each verse happen one syllable too late.
Overall, though, I've found the pointing more sensitive to the natural syllabic stress than the pointing in many other psalters. Whoever pointed Ps. 47 must have been thinking in a tone other than the one used.
quote:Not so fast, there, Martin L. Give me a chance to put my snooty boots on.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:It's a matter of personal taste, really. <snip> Thus, it is not so strange to pray "The Lord be with you. And also with you."
- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?
quote:I was trying to be diplomatic and keep my personal comments to a minimum. Notice I did state "it is not so strange." (I allow for a blip on the strangeness factor meter.) Don't want to be too bold with a first-time poster, I say. Personally, I prefer the "Lord, hear our prayer" that convents used in the place of the aforementioned dialogue.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:Not so fast, there, Martin L. Give me a chance to put my snooty boots on.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:It's a matter of personal taste, really. <snip> Thus, it is not so strange to pray "The Lord be with you. And also with you."
- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?
It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.
quote:I'm frequently the lone visible soul in church on Monday evenings unless a Mass follows (on BCP holy days). Most often I just omit the mutual salutation before the Lord's Prayer and simply finish the Creed and start the Lord's Prayer with nothing between. I do look around first to see whether someone may have floated in silently and needs to be saluted with The Lord be with you.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.
quote:I'm with Martin L in substituting "O Lord, Hear my prayer" in place of the salutation. To some degree, a bit of liturgical schizophrenia has never bothered me. I figure that I'm at least surrounded by the Great Cloud of Witnesses, so that doesn't make me too crazy, does it?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I'm frequently the lone visible soul in church on Monday evenings unless a Mass follows (on BCP holy days). Most often I just omit the mutual salutation before the Lord's Prayer and simply finish the Creed and start the Lord's Prayer with nothing between. I do look around first to see whether someone may have floated in silently and needs to be saluted with The Lord be with you.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.
quote:Okay - I was already missing responsive sections of that nature, as they just seemed too odd to read on my own.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:I was trying to be diplomatic and keep my personal comments to a minimum. Notice I did state "it is not so strange." (I allow for a blip on the strangeness factor meter.) Don't want to be too bold with a first-time poster, I say.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:Not so fast, there, Martin L. Give me a chance to put my snooty boots on.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:It's a matter of personal taste, really. <snip> Thus, it is not so strange to pray "The Lord be with you. And also with you."
- What do people do with plurals in the office when praying on their own? Is it just a case of dynamically translating to the singular?
It is completely and utterly strange to dialogue with oneself during the office (or the mass, for that matter). If 'tis just thee and the angels at morning prayer, then that bit of dialogue ought to be left unsaid.
quote:Oh, I think Scott Knitter would probably be the best to suggest something for you, but have you tried either of the following:
Originally posted by shkhill:
Anyone care to recommend an appropriate breviary for me? I used to use the American BCP, but this Lent switched to Christian Prayer (we all need a change from time to time!), and I like it, for the most part. But the office of readings in the volume doesn't cut it, I'm pulling out my Plainsong Psalter for the psalms (gotta sing them, of course), and I've been struggling to sing the canticles as best I can, making it up as I go along.
So, is there one perfect book out there for me?
quote:Do you mean the SSJE's Hours of Prayer from Lauds to Compline Inclusive, MM? If so, I got a 1961 edition last year.
Also, some breviaries make provision for this explicitly. For example, my 1964 "Hours of the Divine Office")*, preceding the collect gives either
V. Dominus vobiscum./The Lord be with you.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo./And with your spirit.
or
V. Domine, exaudi orationem meam./O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. Et clamor meus ad te veniat./And let my cry come to you.
the latter covering recitation by one alone.
MM
*did you ever find a copy by the way, Divine Office?
quote:Sorry, didn't make myself clear - I meant "the Hours of the Divine Office in English and Latin" by the Liturgical Press.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Manipled Mutineer wrote:-
quote:Do you mean the SSJE's Hours of Prayer from Lauds to Compline Inclusive, MM? If so, I got a 1961 edition last year.
Also, some breviaries make provision for this explicitly. For example, my 1964 "Hours of the Divine Office")*, preceding the collect gives either
V. Dominus vobiscum./The Lord be with you.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo./And with your spirit.
or
V. Domine, exaudi orationem meam./O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. Et clamor meus ad te veniat./And let my cry come to you.
the latter covering recitation by one alone.
MM
*did you ever find a copy by the way, Divine Office?
I also obtained a 1950 edition of The Day Hours of the Church of England. Both are interestingly and charmingly Sarumesque!!!
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:It is also worth checking out the C of E's new breviary known as Common Worship; Daily Prayer. It ought to be easy enough to order a copy online. However, a major inconvenience with this book is that it does not include a biblical lectionary for the offices; you have to obtain a seperate annual booklet for that, or consult the C of E website. This is a bit of a drawback if one is using the book while travelling.
Anyone care to recommend an appropriate breviary for me? I used to use the American BCP, but this Lent switched to Christian Prayer (we all need a change from time to time!), and I like it, for the most part. But the office of readings in the volume doesn't cut it, I'm pulling out my Plainsong Psalter for the psalms (gotta sing them, of course), and I've been struggling to sing the canticles as best I can, making it up as I go along.
So, is there one perfect book out there for me?
quote:I think the one that's available from the online booksellers is a recent (2002) edition that serves as the bridge between CCP and Celebrating Daily Prayer, which has a black cover. That one I have.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
There is also Celebrating Common Prayer which I think is still in print. This is the "lay" version of the current office book used by the Anglican Society of St Francis, and was the inspiration for Common Worship; Daily Prayer, which is fairly similar.
Unlike CW;DP, the full version of CCP does have a lectionary included, and there are also short readings which can be used by travellers when a bible is not to hand. There were also several abridged versions of CCP, which had shorter forms of Morning and Evening Prayer. However, I'm not certain which of these various editions are currently in print.
quote:Interesting that Paul Hartzell's Prayer Book Office had a provision for doing two hymns: I think one was after the Invitatory and the other just before the Benedictus. Probably wanted to retain both the Matins and Lauds hymns.
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
(Alternatively, I've seen it argued that the hymn in MP should be placed after the Invitatory since that's where the Matins hymn would have fallen rather than the Lauds hymn.)
quote:Yup. That's always the trick when there's only one slot for an Office Hymn in the morning--Matins or Lauds? I think the answer is typically whichever can be located...
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Interesting that Paul Hartzell's Prayer Book Office had a provision for doing two hymns: I think one was after the Invitatory and the other just before the Benedictus. Probably wanted to retain both the Matins and Lauds hymns.
quote:Yeah, I'm gonna have to get me a copy of that at some point too... So, how do you decide between Matins or Lauds hymns?
Originally posted by lukacs:
The ENGLISH OFFICE only provides for a hymn after the Benedictus, for whatever that is worth. That tends to be my point of reference so I'm sticking with it.
quote:I've received mine and have been exploring it. Another worthy office book! Personally, for completeness and ease of use, I'd give the edge to the Mundelein Psalter, but the Camaldolese one contributes a whole system of psalm pointing and a most interesting office structure; I'm intrigued by the "closing trope."
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I am now eagerly awaiting the Camaldolese Office Book !
quote:The main section gives the psalms for Lauds and Vespers in Ordinary Time throughout the week, starting with I Vespers of Sunday. It's divided up by day, then by hour, then by Week I and Week II. Items are either clearly marked (Week I, Week II, or Weeks I and II) or are followed by a cross-reference (In Week II, go to #254). Each Lauds and Vespers also has a hymn, a Benedictus or Magnificat with antiphons and a closing trope. A seasonal section has alternatives for hymns, Gospel canticle antiphons, and closing tropes for the various seasons. There's a festal section for various feasts and an Office of the Dead.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I'm intrigued by the layout of the book; Scott, are the psalms grouped for daily Lauds, Vespers and Compline?
quote:Office hymns, yes. And to quite traditional tunes (The antiphons to psalms and canticles, however, are more of the contemporary responsorial-psalm variety, but not bad, and they seem to come from the Italian version, Salterio Monastico). The propers of saints provide proper hymns only; the commons provide much other material. Page numbers aren't given (to prevent confusion with the item numbers), but there are 555 numbered items in all. The book is slightly thicker than the Adoremus Hymnal, half the thickness of the Mundelein Psalter (and about the same height).[/QB][/QUOTE]
Are there office hymns? Are there propers and commons of saints? How many pages does the book have? Is there a calendar? So many questions! I know patience is a Camaldolese virtue, but it's something in which I'm sadly lacking!
quote:Either would work fine, I'm sure. Perhaps at Lauds one could use the first two BCP lessons and then the third one at Vespers. Or one could simply use the ones from the RC LOH. Lessons are not indicated anywhere, but I would imagine they would be read after the psalms. It would be interesting to know what is used at New Camaldoli.
Also, as the book has no biblical lections included, what lectionary might be suitable for use with it? How about that of the ECUSA 1979 BCP, for example? Or the short lections from the standard RC LOH?
quote:You and I are using the MP and LOH in the same way, exactly. On the notation, if you can sing a scale on "doh-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-doh," know that the C-shaped clef at the beginning of a psalm tone surrounds the "doh" line, and the other notes of the scale can be determined from that. Find your starting note by singing "doh" and counting down from there to the first note, such as "doh-ti-la-sol." Also, if you learn the three psalm tones learned in any one office, you've learned them all, because they keep being used in the same order at both MP and EP of Weeks I and III, and another set in Weeks II and IV.
In the meantime, I am loving using Mundelein Psalter for Vespers. I plan to use it as my standard office book when praying Lauds, Vespers and Compline from the RC LOH at home in English, with my four-volume Catholic Book Publishing set for the Office of Readings and Prayer during the Day. I must just learn to read the notation so that I can chant the psalms and canticles!
Maybe they don't do overseas.
quote:Seems as though they would contact you if they need more money for shipping, or more information.
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Havent heard from the New Camaldoli Hermitage.
quote:Neither have I yet; I live in the UK. I sent them an email to order the book on Monday, I think, and this is now Saturday. Of course, I might have just missed last week's mailing, or they might be mailing today. If I've heard nothing by the middle of next week I'll contact them again. It's just that I'm keen to get a copy of that book!
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Havent heard from the New Camaldoli Hermitage. Maybe they don't do overseas.
quote:I noticed today that the full version of Celebrating Common Prayer actually has antiphons for each of the psalms [http://oremus.org/liturgy/ccp/24psalms.html].
- If I want to incorporate alternate psalms into the office (say in CCP/CDP) is there a source of antiphonal prayers (assuming that is the right word) for each psalm somewhere?
, anybody have any ideas or suggestions.quote:Good to have you on board, catholicedinburgh.
Afternoon all. My first ever post on the ship - what have I let myself in for!
A brief (very) background. I am an ex-Anglican religious who was received into the Roman Catholic church at Easter 2006. Having decided to pick up saying the office again, I found the Roman LOH a bit thin, particularly on the readings at MP and EP, although I understand the major lections occur at Vigils. I prefer something meatier at MP and EP(Lauds and Vespers if you prefer). I would also be using ot for Compline, my favourite office of the day with the three traditioal psalms.
I would also like something that has the Psalm tones supplied and the plainchant for the traditional office hymns.
I know I'm not looking for much , anybody have any ideas or suggestions.
Thanks
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:Thanks for drawing our attention to this, Scott. I've already written in the correct Benedictus antiphon for Pentecost on my own copy for future use. Lucky I had the full version of the LOH to refer to. If you come across any further errors please let us know so that we can amend them; I will do likewise if I find any.
Felt my blood pressure rising this morning as I prayed Morning Prayer from the Mundelein Psalter and discovered yet another major error: the wrong antiphon on Benedictus. It's possibly the one for Corpus Christi instead of Pentecost.
How do publishers get away with failing to proofread, or in the Mundelein Psalter's case, failing to spell-check the introduction? Obviously they didn't have anyone sing through the book, because surely someone would have thought, as I did, that the Pentecost Benedictus antiphon didn't seem to have much to do with Pentecost.
Frustrating to see such error-ridden books keep appearing. Take the time to get them right!
quote:On that note, is there not an error in Christian Prayer, the one volume version of the RC Liturgy of the Hours? The version I have has the antiphon for the Canticle for Wednesday's Evening Prayer in Week II in the Easter season, as Let the peoples praise you, Lord God; let them rejoice in your salvation, alleluia!. Is this not incorrect? Should it not be His glory covers the heavens and his praise fills the earth, alleluia! ? I think the former is the correct antiphon for the first psalm of that day for the Easter season and it is incorrectly reprinted for the Canticle.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
These things do spoil an excellent publication!!!
quote:That's correct, Father. The right place for the Office Hymn is immediately before the Psalms. My practice is only to have an Office Hymn at Evensong and omit it at Mattins where its job is effectively done by the Venite anyway.
Ritual Notes 11th edition suggests putting the Office hymn at Morning Prayer after the Venite, which is the position suggested in the Parson's Handbook too.
PD
quote:I've started a list of errors in the Mundelein Psalter.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Thanks for drawing our attention to this, Scott. I've already written in the correct Benedictus antiphon for Pentecost on my own copy for future use. Lucky I had the full version of the LOH to refer to. If you come across any further errors please let us know so that we can amend them; I will do likewise if I find any.
These things do spoil an excellent publication!!!
quote:I'm rather late the party, but I would strongly recommend the Monastic Dirunal Revised. There is no need to wait to pick up the existing volume; the new volume being proofread is essentially a vesperal - i.e. a volume of music for the little hours and vespers. Matins is spoken. You'll eventually need both volumes for the complete music (i.e. without matins) and full text.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:Oh, I think Scott Knitter would probably be the best to suggest something for you, but have you tried either of the following:
Originally posted by shkhill:
Anyone care to recommend an appropriate breviary for me? [...]
Monastic Diurnal Revised (Hold out for the noted edition, which should come out soon. Proofreading has already begun.)
quote:I also try to pray the LOH in Latin for the same reasons. At the moment I pray Sunday Vespers from Scepter's Lauds and Vespers book. I also have the complete Liturgia Horarum which I use for the other hours and on major feasts.
Yes, there is real value for me in saying the Office in another language! It slows me down and makes me think about the words. It helps me 'connect' with the worldwide Church (not just the English-speaking world). It helps me understand and assimilate my own patrimony as a Western Catholic Christian. And of course it helps me learn the language concerned!
The language concerned is Latin (Lauds and Vespers from the modern Liturgy of the Hours).
quote:There are some wonderful RC office books in German, and an abridged 1979 USA BCP is available in German.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I'd like to try German. I've said the daily prayers from the evangelisches Gesangbuch a few times, but they hardly constitute a full blown Office. Does anyone know anything about German breviaries, and can suggest what might be available (IIRC Scott mentioned something in one of these very long threads)?
.quote:I'd either have to part with much money (that I don't have) in order to do that or go low church and say the office. I usually sing the office here at home, and changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language, which is an expense I can't justify to myself, even though others here have pointed out the value in doing the Office in another language.
Originally posted by Martin L:
"Out of the blue" question:
Does anybody pray the office regularly in another language (i.e. not your first language)? Do you find value in it?
I have tried this on several occasions, and I find that it helps me to "chew on" the words a bit more, if that makes any sense. However, I've never tried it for an extended period, or with a complicated office--only simple "barebones" stuff. Does it sound like a ridiculous idea?
quote:That's why I had to mention going barebones. My own denomination, the ELCA, has a Spanish-language book of worship/hymnal that includes MP, EP, and Compline, along with some musical resources. An abbreviated Psalter and some tones are also included. I also got a really good price ($2) on a copy of the Chinese United Methodist Hymnal, but I can't read Chinese so I would have to use the English on the facing page anyway!
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:I'd either have to part with much money (that I don't have) in order to do that or go low church and say the office. I usually sing the office here at home, and changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language, which is an expense I can't justify to myself, even though others here have pointed out the value in doing the Office in another language.
Originally posted by Martin L:
"Out of the blue" question:
Does anybody pray the office regularly in another language (i.e. not your first language)? Do you find value in it?
I have tried this on several occasions, and I find that it helps me to "chew on" the words a bit more, if that makes any sense. However, I've never tried it for an extended period, or with a complicated office--only simple "barebones" stuff. Does it sound like a ridiculous idea?
quote:Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
quote:What choirboy said. For the psalms, I could probably muddle my way through some of the simpler of the eight psalm tones with the simpler endings but not all of the psalm tones make it that easy to figure out where the stress goes. I've been caught out before now with the occasional verse, and that's while doing it in English. In a language not my first I definitely couldn't manage it off the cuff and if I were to prepare each time I did the office, I'd be spending more time pointing the words than I would actually praying. And that's just the psalm tones for the psalms and canticles.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
quote:The Saint Meinrad two-line psalm tones used in the Mundelein Psalter work with almost any psalter translation and with minimal or no pointing. If you're the only one chanting, you can wing it very easily once you've got the tune in mind. See some PDFs here.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Maybe almost doable for chanting the psalms, although potentially still tricky to spot the patterns of stressed syllables to fit to the music on the fly. But the text of the antiphons would be quite a job to fit to the music.
quote:I just realised how dismissive my earlier post may have seemed. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to be and appreciate your suggestion, which I now think I actually may have misunderstood.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
quote:I believe they plan to make it available on their Web site.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Will New Camaldoli be making their ordo available every week? A nice office routine might be to alternate Mundelein and New Camaldoli every 4 weeks.
quote:Would it be appropriate to use the form of Prime from the proposed UK 1928 BCP as a form for noonday prayer?
Originally posted by lukacs:
Anybody know a decent, relatively simple noonday prayer form (simple as in something amenable to saying 3 or 4 sections of Psalm 119 a day) in traditional language, other than the version of Noonday Prayer found in the Anglican Service Book? I sometimes use the prayer for daytime from the MANUAL OF ANGLO-CATHOLIC DEVOTION but wondered if there were other options.
quote:Another possible option might be to try to get hold of a 1962 or earlier edition of the orginal Manual of Catholic Devotion first published by the Church Literature Association in 1950. This had basic orders of Prime, Terce, Sext, None, and Compline as well as the BCP orders of Mattins and Evensong. Avoid the 1969 edition, though, as this only had Compline as well as Mattins and Evensong.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Anybody know a decent, relatively simple noonday prayer form (simple as in something amenable to saying 3 or 4 sections of Psalm 119 a day) in traditional language, other than the version of Noonday Prayer found in the Anglican Service Book? I sometimes use the prayer for daytime from the MANUAL OF ANGLO-CATHOLIC DEVOTION but wondered if there were other options.
quote:No, it didn't seem dismissive at all; thank you to both you and Choirboy for your replies. Your second reply, Saint Bertelin, expanded on some things that I had started to think might be the case. My question itself reveals (as I thought about this issue more) how much the music per se is not part of how I think of MP and EP. Not part of my primary experience. I don't really understand tones -- at the moment they're theoretical things to me and just a pile of notes, no different from any other pile of notes.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:I just realised how dismissive my earlier post may have seemed. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to be and appreciate your suggestion, which I now think I actually may have misunderstood.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
]
quote:Haha! You're not far off.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:No, it didn't seem dismissive at all; thank you to both you and Choirboy for your replies. Your second reply, Saint Bertelin, expanded on some things that I had started to think might be the case. My question itself reveals (as I thought about this issue more) how much the music per se is not part of how I think of MP and EP. Not part of my primary experience. I don't really understand tones -- at the moment they're theoretical things to me and just a pile of notes, no different from any other pile of notes.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
quote:I just realised how dismissive my earlier post may have seemed. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to be and appreciate your suggestion, which I now think I actually may have misunderstood.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:Why do you have to chant the tunes someone else has pointed for them, instead of chanting your own tunes, based on general principles of chant if structure is needed?
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
changing languages would mean acquiring musical resources and a pointed psalter in that language,
Are there any links you (or others) might specifically recommend on tones? Where would I go if I wanted to find something I could sing them from?
[ETA: Uh-oh. Is this the first step on a slippery slope? Why do I think the answer to my question might be "Dear AR, you need these sixteen daily office books!"
), but if it is something that you may want to explore, for somebody who is using a traditional language form the office at home or communally, I would certainly recommend the St Dunstan Psalter. Also, for those for whom this is an influencing factor when choosing prayer materials, the Lancelot Andrewes Press is an ecumenical effort, with Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox contributions.quote:Oh stop - we all know the answer you're really hoping for!
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
[ETA: Uh-oh. Is this the first step on a slippery slope? Why do I think the answer to my question might be "Dear AR, you need these sixteen daily office books!"
quote:That has to be one of the best posts of all time.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Very clever, that St. Dunstan's link. Following the link, one curious about chant might wish to read the Psalm Chant Tutorial. Then, to see the theory in action, one might look at the Psalms for the First Morning. Then one might peek at the Venite and the Magnificat.
Then one might chant through the downloaded examples, and find oneself intrigued by how different it is than reading them.
Then one might get curious to see examples of the rest of the eight tones and all the various tone endings. To say nothing of being intrigued by the style of the canticles. One might start to grasp how chanting could be attractive for daily use. But for all this one would need to order the book. Which at $30 and free shipping can hardly be resisted.
That's what one might do.
quote:Yes indeed...the Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition, p. 204, Antiphon on Magnificat: O sacred banquet, Mode V.1...which means it's probably also in the old Monastic Diurnal Noted.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Is anybody else using a version of the Office in which the melody for this evening's Magnificat antiphon (1st Vespers of Corpus Christi) is based very closely on Sarum Sanctus II, also found in the compilation Mass De Angelis?
quote:Ahhhm now that's interesting. The Monastic Diurnal gives this evening's antiphon as:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Yes indeed...the Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition, p. 204, Antiphon on Magnificat: O sacred banquet, Mode V.1...which means it's probably also in the old Monastic Diurnal Noted.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Is anybody else using a version of the Office in which the melody for this evening's Magnificat antiphon (1st Vespers of Corpus Christi) is based very closely on Sarum Sanctus II, also found in the compilation Mass De Angelis?
quote:It is this that I have to the similar melody to the Sanctus, identified here as mode vi, (or vj, to quote more accurately).
O how sweet is Thy Spirit, O Lord! Who that Thou mightest shew Thy kindness unto Thy children, givest them that sweetest Bread from heaven, fillest the hungry with good things, and sendest the rich and scornful empty away.
quote:I just checked the Monastic Diurnal Revised (not the Noted chant book), and the MDR starts Corpus Christi at Matins, so there's no longer a I Vespers of it, apparently.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Ahhhm now that's interesting. The Monastic Diurnal gives this evening's antiphon as:
quote:It is this that I have to the similar melody to the Sanctus, identified here as mode vi, (or vj, to quote more accurately).
O how sweet is Thy Spirit, O Lord! Who that Thou mightest shew Thy kindness unto Thy children, givest them that sweetest Bread from heaven, fillest the hungry with good things, and sendest the rich and scornful empty away.
The O Sacrum Convivium is given as the antiphon for 2nd Vespers (tomorrow) but the melody is entirely different.
quote:There is in this house!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:I just checked the Monastic Diurnal Revised (not the Noted chant book), and the MDR starts Corpus Christi at Matins, so there's no longer a I Vespers of it, apparently.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Ahhhm now that's interesting. The Monastic Diurnal gives this evening's antiphon as:
quote:It is this that I have to the similar melody to the Sanctus, identified here as mode vi, (or vj, to quote more accurately).
O how sweet is Thy Spirit, O Lord! Who that Thou mightest shew Thy kindness unto Thy children, givest them that sweetest Bread from heaven, fillest the hungry with good things, and sendest the rich and scornful empty away.
The O Sacrum Convivium is given as the antiphon for 2nd Vespers (tomorrow) but the melody is entirely different.
quote:Hello All
Actually, if I'm honest, my primary Office books are The Monastic Diurnal and the offices of one of our Orthodox monasteries. Both are Benedictine and so for the music for the Offices, I use this. It was actually sitting my shelf for some months before I started saying the office properly as I had originally bought it and the for interest's sake, (back when I could afford to part with that sort of money solely for interest's sake).
For the psalms and canticles, I use this. It contains psalms from the Miles Coverdale translation
quote:Admitting you have a breviary problem is the first step to acquiring many more. In particular, St. Dunstan's is itself a gateway breviary to the Monastic Diurnal or Monastic Diurnal Revised....
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
"Hi everyone. My name is Autenrieth Road, and I would look this up in my St. Dunstan's Psalter, but I don't know when the mailman is going to arrive."
quote:At the bottom of the link to the monastic diurnal, there is information for paying with a credit card through pay pal, or they take checks or money orders. I don't know about these switch card things, but if you can't make your pay pal account work, then I suggest you email the press to get information on how to pay with a money order. You may need to get some sort of instrument drawn in dollars. On the home page, there is an email address given for enquiries: info@andrewespress.com.
Originally posted by catholicedinburgh:
Having looked at the links in this post, these books seem to be exactly what I am looking for. I am unclear about the ordering process for those of us resident in the UK. I have a Switch Card and a PayPal account(for e-bay). No credit cards as I don't want any. Am I able to order these books fron Lancelot Andrewes Press. If so, how???
quote:Yes. Choirboy's right. I hope I didn't mislead anybody with my post above, which was a summary of what I use. There is indeed a table of psalm tones in the Monastic Diurnal Noted but it is not a psalter and doesn't contain the actual text of the psalms. These are to be found in the Monastic Diurnal at the appropriate office and day. This means that that the devout (or not so devout) person saying the office has to somehow juggle the Monastic Diurnal Noted (for the music) and the Monastic Diurnal (for the words), while simultaneously trying to work out where the pointing should be (because the MD does not have the psalms pointed for chanting).
Originally posted by Choirboy:
P.S. The Monastic Diurnal and Monastic Diurnal Noted contain respectively the rite and the music for the old monastic day hours. The St. Dunstan's psalter is music to go along with a BCP daily office. You don't need that psalter to sing the psalms with the Monastic Diurnal.
quote:It appears to be out of print, but copies do pop up on eBay, abebooks.com, and other such venues frequently. I have a really old one with ribbons as well as a much newer one without, but I don't think there's been a printing recently. I believe the OHC monks still use it. I often wonder what they think of the Saint Helena Breviary and whether they would adopt it or use it sometimes. I'd vote for that if I were one of them, but I'm not.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print? Is it still in use or did the Monks also switch to the MDR? I have called the bookstore at Holy Cross a few times over the past year, but have never gotten a call back. Thanks--
quote:The number of books is the same - 2 either way, but the number of back and forth switches between the MDN and MD may be greater than between the St. Dunstan's and the MD. It is true that with the MDN, you don't have the full psalm written out and pointed, so you have to 'point on the fly' while reading from the MD. That takes some practice, but with the Coverdale translation isn't as bad as you might fear.
Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
The St Dunstan's Psalter, on the other hand, has the advantage of having a much fuller provision of the psalm tones as they were expanded at Sarum, and also has the appropriate tone with the appropriate ending above each psalm, with the ensuing psalm pointed for use with that particular tone and ending. It may not be essential for use with the Monastic Diurnal but it certainly makes life much, much easier, and I would recommend it to anybody who, like me, struggles to manage with a number of books at once.
quote:Which Holy Cross did you call? They still use it for the offices at Holy Cross Monastery in Poughkeepsie NY (you try spelling that without looking it up), and they had copies in the bookstore the last time I was there a few months ago. You can reach them here.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print? Is it still in use or did the Monks also switch to the MDR? I have called the bookstore at Holy Cross a few times over the past year, but have never gotten a call back. Thanks--
quote:I chatted with a couple of monks about the SHB which was also on sale (I bought one, and they seemed a mite surprised someone actually did). They didn't mind it, but weren't terribly enthused about it either. They didn't give very concrete reasons; it sounded like they were simply happy enough with what they've already got. They've inclusivized some of the language in the Monastic Breviary with stickers and scotch tape, so that's not the issue. One did jokinly say, "You try holding that thing through an entire office."
I often wonder what they think of the Saint Helena Breviary and whether they would adopt it or use it sometimes. I'd vote for that if I were one of them, but I'm not.
quote:I'd spell it W-E-S-T P-A-R-K.
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Which Holy Cross did you call? They still use it for the offices at Holy Cross Monastery in Poughkeepsie NY (you try spelling that without looking it up), and they had copies in the bookstore the last time I was there a few months ago. You can reach them here.
quote:I have a copy of this which I obtained through abebooks.com several months ago. I've also seen two or three copies on eBay over the years.
Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print? Is it still in use or did the Monks also switch to the MDR? I have called the bookstore at Holy Cross a few times over the past year, but have never gotten a call back. Thanks--
quote:I'd give them 24 hours to respond. The times during which their schedule allows for phone calls and Internet use may be limited.
Originally posted by lukacs:
I called West Park, and e-mailed. I did so today, in fact, with no luck.
quote:Much of a muchness for the daily office, other than the addition of the Phos hilaron and lamp lighting as an optional pre-Evensong thing in the '79. I'm sure you can use every bit of the St. Dunstan's Psalter with either Rite I or II of the '79 without trouble. I certainly have with Rite I on many occasions, and Rite II often enough.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Somewhere I own a 1928 BCP, so as I wait for my St. Dunstan's to arrive I will fish that out and compare it with 1979....Because of using the ECUSA [1979] BCP is why I decided St. Dunstan's as a psalter fit, rather than a different whole office book.
quote:I have seen this breviary (ribbonless) at Washington National Cathedral's Museum Store. You can't order most of the books online, however, so your best best is calling them.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone (and especially a certain poster whose name rhymes with "Hot Fritter") know if the MONASTIC BREVIARY used by the Order of the Holy Cross since the late 60s (when it was known as the FOUR OFFICE BREVIARY) is still in print?
quote:I guess this is why Pfatteicher's book is arranged Vespers first. He must've known about that work. Oddly enough, Common Worship: Daily Prayer has noonday prayer (called Prayer During the Day) first because it is the simplest office, so newbies can get acquainted with the basic structure before getting in to the more complex ones.
Originally posted by Patrick:
Although the book has been out now for three years, I only recently came upon Daily Liturgical Prayer by Gregory Woolfenden. The only comprehensive comparative study of the Divine Office that I had read up to now was the magisterial work of Robert Taft, SJ, The Liturgy of the Hours East and West. Fr.Woolfenden, once at Rippon College, Oxford and now a pastor of an Orthodox parish in the States,is grounded in Taft, of course, and also in Paul Bradshaw's work. The present volume is a gem, focused upon a simple observation: that in its origin, the daily office was a meditation upon the transition from darkness to light, from sleep to wakefulness and, most importantly, from death to life. The Paschal Vigil serves as a paradigm for this meditation. Thus, the liturgical day properly begins with sunset and ends at sunset, not from sunrise till night. [snip]
quote:Paypal also claims to take regular bank accounts. I also don't know what a Switch card is, but if you can pay with Paypal for ebay, then I would expect the same type of payment would work for Paypal payments to Lancelot Andrewes Press. My expectation would be that the Lancelot Andrewes verbiage about "pay with a credit card through Paypal" is slightly overly specific and the key part of it is "pay through Paypal."
Originally posted by Choirboy:
quote:At the bottom of the link to the monastic diurnal, there is information for paying with a credit card through pay pal, or they take checks or money orders. I don't know about these switch card things, but if you can't make your pay pal account work, then I suggest you email the press to get information on how to pay with a money order. You may need to get some sort of instrument drawn in dollars. On the home page, there is an email address given for enquiries: info@andrewespress.com.
Originally posted by catholicedinburgh:
Having looked at the links in this post, these books seem to be exactly what I am looking for. I am unclear about the ordering process for those of us resident in the UK. I have a Switch Card and a PayPal account(for e-bay). No credit cards as I don't want any. Am I able to order these books fron Lancelot Andrewes Press. If so, how???
quote:Just placed the order. Thanks so much.
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
I have seen this breviary (ribbonless) at Washington National Cathedral's Museum Store. You can't order most of the books online, however, so your best best is calling them.
quote:Another highly recommended volume in the genre is George Guiver's Company of Voices: Daily Prayer and the People of God. Highly readable and informative, with thought-provoking recommendations for communities.
Originally posted by Patrick:
I first discovered Fr. Woolfenden's Daily Liturgical Prayer on the St. Vladimir Seminary (Crestwood, NY) Bookstore web page. You may purchase it from the Bookstore on line. The publisher is Ashgate (UK). Dr. Campbell's Breviary to Liturgy of the Hours is a Pueblo Book (Liturgical Press), as is, I believe, Fr. Taft's Liturgy of the Hours East and West.
quote:Thanks to those who responded. Think I will contact LA press and see what they can tell me.
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:Paypal also claims to take regular bank accounts. I also don't know what a Switch card is, but if you can pay with Paypal for ebay, then I would expect the same type of payment would work for Paypal payments to Lancelot Andrewes Press. My expectation would be that the Lancelot Andrewes verbiage about "pay with a credit card through Paypal" is slightly overly specific and the key part of it is "pay through Paypal."
Originally posted by Choirboy:
quote:At the bottom of the link to the monastic diurnal, there is information for paying with a credit card through pay pal, or they take checks or money orders. I don't know about these switch card things, but if you can't make your pay pal account work, then I suggest you email the press to get information on how to pay with a money order. You may need to get some sort of instrument drawn in dollars. On the home page, there is an email address given for enquiries: info@andrewespress.com.
Originally posted by catholicedinburgh:
Having looked at the links in this post, these books seem to be exactly what I am looking for. I am unclear about the ordering process for those of us resident in the UK. I have a Switch Card and a PayPal account(for e-bay). No credit cards as I don't want any. Am I able to order these books fron Lancelot Andrewes Press. If so, how???
[This is based on my sketchy model of how Paypal works, not on any experience with LA Press yet.]
quote:A Corpus Christi sermon I read elsewhere refers to a quotation from St Ignatius that included the phrase "medicine of immortality."
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I use Christian Prayer the one volume version of the Liturgy of the Hours. One of the intercessions for Evening Prayer I and II of Corpus Christi reads:
"Christ through your bread you offer the remedy for immortality..."
Should not that read:
".... remedy for mortality"
or am I missing something?
quote:You're not wrong at all. You're making sense, completely.
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I don't think I'm wrong, am I? It seems like one would say "remedy for mortality." As in "rememdy for the flu" not "remedy for not having the flu."
quote:
Ignatius, To the Ephesians 20.2:
Continue to gather together, each and every one of you...in order that you may obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undisturbed mind, breaking one bread, which is the medicine of immortality, the antidote we take in order not to die but to live forever in Jesus Christ.
[Transl. from Holmes's Apostolic Fathers. Search "Inside this book" for medicine.]
quote:A smattering.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Autenrieth Road, I think you posted on this thread that you once sat down with the '79 BCP office lectionary and worked out how much Bible it covered. May I ask how much of the apocrypha/deutercanonicals it covered?
.) I did this by hand once but don't know where the notes are.
quote:I have the older (light blue cover) edition of this book. I see that it has been either reprinted, or reissued in a second edition. Can anyone say something about what updated content the new edition contains, if any?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Another highly recommended volume in the genre is George Guiver's Company of Voices: Daily Prayer and the People of God. Highly readable and informative, with thought-provoking recommendations for communities.
quote:PREFACE TO THE SECOND EDITION
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:I have the older (light blue cover) edition of this book. I see that it has been either reprinted, or reissued in a second edition. Can anyone say something about what updated content the new edition contains, if any?
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Another highly recommended volume in the genre is George Guiver's Company of Voices: Daily Prayer and the People of God. Highly readable and informative, with thought-provoking recommendations for communities.
quote:I don't have it any more, but yes, it does have a good deal of additional material that could be useful. They have complete propers for the feasts of St. Clare and St. Francis, for example, and there are collects for other Franciscan saints as well. Its calendar is different from the CCP one, in that there are more saints from religious communities mentioned there--not to mention more Marian feasts!
Originally posted by lukacs:
Anyone have any experience with the DAILY OFFICE SSF, the Franciscan version of CELEBRATING COMMON PRAYER? If one wanted to enrich the BCP office with Franciscan feast day propers would this be a good resource?
quote:Which strictures are you thinking of, and what does the Breviary do instead?
Originally posted by lukacs:
The MONASTIC BREVIARY (Holy Cross/S. Helena) [...] the foresight shown by the editors in offering a structure of four daily office lessons that codifies the suggested approach of the 1979 BCP while removing some of its strictures,
quote:There are copies floating around in used-breviary-land of the Four-Week Breviary, the OHC's early edition of A Monastic Breviary. It's a white paperback, and it uses the RSV psalter, as it was published just before it was decided to use the newly translated Prayer Book Psalter Revised in the 1979 BCP (and in A Monastic Breviary).
Originally posted by lukacs:
Still, all in all, if I were on the road and had a copy packed in a messenger bag with a KJV or RSV, and I opted for using the latter for the psalms, the only thing I would absolutely have to paste in would be a better Te Deum.
)
quote:Sacred Heart isn't mentioned in some modern Anglican monastic breviaries, either, like the Monastic Diurnal Revised, presumably because there's no provision in the BCP.
Originally posted by aredstatemystic:
I have been using The English Office for the last few months. Even though it has a few pages in the Proper of Seasons, the Sacred Heart is not mentioned in any of the BCP (1928, 1940's and before) lectionaries.
quote:What would you read instead on the days when leaving out the deuterocanonicals? Or would you drop the OT reading for those days?
Originally posted by lukacs:
[...]wondered how far I could get by in '79 with just OT and NT.
quote:Thanks. I've captured that in my list. I'm sure there are many more to capture, but I haven't prayed the Mundelein Psalter for a few weeks (although I do like it).
Originally posted by FCB:
I got my Mundaline Psalter a couple of days ago and noticed that one of the psalms for Holy Saturday isn't pointed. So folks can add that to their list of errata. But, on the whole, it looks pretty good.
quote:Thanks for the list, DitzySpike, but I'm going to do myself a favor and not even look at it!
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The Maronite Liturgy of the Hours appears frequently on ebay; now a podcast of the morning and evening prayers from these expensive and exotic books are available here.
quote:Actually, there ARE Sacred Heart propers in the ANGLICAN MISSAL, in the table of movable feasts.
Originally posted by lukacs:
redstsatemystic, I note that the PEOPLE'S ANGLICAN MISSAL (available at anglicanbooks.com) provides an Epistle and Gospel for Corpus Christi, as well as many other feasts of note. That's one option--
quote:I'm posting this here in Daily Offices with the hope that this thread will be archived in Limbo as the previous one was.
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Selections of Psalms
God the Creator: 8, 19; 33; 65, 111; 104; 145; 147
God the Redeemer: 33; 102:15; 103; 111, 126; 113, 114; 130, 138
God the Judge: 1, 11; 7; 46, 97; 50; 62, 82; 75, 76; 90; 96; 98
God's Glory: 18:1-20; 29, 99; 36:5, 46; 148; 150
God's Sovereignty: 24, 93; 46, 47; 72; 89:1-19; 96, 97; 98, 99; 112, 146; 145
God's Wisdom: 33; 104; 111, 113; 139; 145; 147
God's Law: 19; 50; 62, 111; 119; 147
God's Providence: 23, 121; 33; 34; 37:26, 124; 89:1-19; 139; 145; 146; 147
God's Mercy: 23, 100; 32, 130; 57, 61; 62, 63; 73; 77; 85; 86; 103; 118; 145
God the Creator: 2, 110; 8, 113; 85, 111; 89:1-30; 102:15; 132
The Passion: 22; 40:1-16; 42; 54, 130; 69:1-22,30-37; 88; 116
The Church: 46, 111; 48; 84; 122, 133; 147
Worship: 5; 26, 43; 63, 65; 66; 67, 122; 84, 138; 96, 100; 102:15; 116
Thanksgiving: 30, 67; 65; 92, 100; 98, 111; 103; 107; 116; 134, 138; 145; 147; 148; 150
Prayer: 4, 5; 17; 20, 28; 31; 54, 61; 84; 86; 102:15; 141:1-4, 142
Trust in God: 27; 31; 57, 146; 62, 63; 71; 73; 77; 91; 118; 121, 124, 125; 123, 143
God our Refuge: 4, 20; 17; 37; 46; 49; 54, 61; 71; 91; 103; 121, 146
Divine Guidance: 25; 43, 85; 80; 111, 112
In Time of Trouble: 3, 11; 12, 13; 18:1-20; 20, 46; 30, 146; 40:1-16; 49; 57, 85; 62, 63; 80; 86; 90; 107:1-16; 118; 144
Righteousness: 1, 15; 11, 12; 18:21-35; 19; 26; 34; 40:1-16; 92; 111, 112
Peace: 29, 46; 76; 85; 98, 100; 124, 125, 126
The Transitoriness: of Life 39; 49; 90; 102:15
The Hope of Immortality: 16, 146; 30, 121; 42; 49; 66; 73; 103; 116; 139
Morning: 3, 20; 5, 63; 90; 143
Evening: 4, 31:1-6, 91, 134; 13, 121; 16, 17; 77
Penitential: 6; 32; 38; 51; 102; 130; 143
Preparation for Holy Communion: 23, 36:5; 25; 26, 43; 41; 63; 84, 122; 85; 86; 130, 133; 139
Thanksgiving after Holy Communion: 8, 15; 18:1-20; 19; 27; 29, 30; 34; 100, 110; 103; 118; 145; 150
quote:Agreed. I once inquired about the full liturgical schedule followed by the Community (just out of curiosity; I made it clear I wasn't going to try to attend a nonpublic service), and it was as though I had inquired as to the system administrator's password for their main computer. I was told I would be most welcome to attend Vespers and Mass, which I already knew, and that the Community celebrated nonpublic liturgies at other times, but they wouldn't say when. Guess one has to go there on retreat to find out.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Gorgeous yes, but not particularly informative....
quote:Welcome, simwel, to this repository of the collective knowledge (and lack thereof) of the Daily Office.
Originally posted by simwel:
Some, most, of us say a morning and evening office?
I have been used Celebrating Daily Prayer for some time, and I wonder who out there is using what and why
quote:Well, the 1979 BCP doesn't deserve all the blame; the Te Deum was one of the ICEL texts and appeared first in the RC Liturgy of the Hours.
Originally posted by lukacs:
aside from a translation of Te Deum Laudamus that is actually worse than its US BCP 1979 Rite II counterpart.
quote:That was a result, then, wasn't it. Every time I use mine, they take money away from me not add it on.
Originally posted by Divine Office:
The 1963 PBO is mine!! It has been shipped and the price added onto my credit card!!!
quote:If only Visa did work that way!!!!!!
That was a result, then, wasn't it. Every time I use mine, they take money away from me not add it on.
quote:Which of Galley's theories do you consider extremely idiosyncratic?
Originally posted by Patrick:
Even in these last editions, Fr. Hartzell's theories were always interesting and never as extremely idiosyncratic as Howard Galley.
quote:I used to have this problem, but it doesn't really bother me anymore. A couple of things have helped me out--
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I've been using the office for a while now and have started trying to combine my times of study with the office (I believe this is called the 'desert' model of doing the office) - using my readings as the readings in the office - and then spending an extended time studying before going into the time of prayer. I am finding it quite difficult to spend extended times of study and retain the prayer element - it sometimes seems to be a big shift perceptually between the two.
Should I just accept this and move on, or are there tips to get around this?
quote:That would be a good idea, Martin, for those of us RCs who don't go to daily Mass.
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:I used to have this problem, but it doesn't really bother me anymore. A couple of things have helped me out--
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I've been using the office for a while now and have started trying to combine my times of study with the office (I believe this is called the 'desert' model of doing the office) - using my readings as the readings in the office - and then spending an extended time studying before going into the time of prayer. I am finding it quite difficult to spend extended times of study and retain the prayer element - it sometimes seems to be a big shift perceptually between the two.
Should I just accept this and move on, or are there tips to get around this?
- Inserting a canticle or responsory after each reading
- Limiting the readings done within the offices (and doing the others either before or after
- Adding extra offices and dividing up the readings!
- Watching the time (until you get your timing down)--I try to balance into three equal chunks: Opening/Psalms, Readings, Prayers--but to each his/her own. I don't clock-watch anymore, by the way. It is just a feeling.
Since you're doing readings other than the office lectionary, I think you just have to go with what works for you. For a while, I had a hard time with the 2-Year Daily Office Lectionary because the readings were too long for me, so I used the 2-Year Eucharistic Lectionary instead.
quote:We're quite accustomed to bragging!
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Sorry to keep going on about it, but my new copy of Galley's PBO is that of 1994...
quote:Haven't done this, but a number of folks in our church do use the Churchman's Ordo as a basis for BCP daily prayer. It makes for a lot of feasts. To have any semblance of sticking with the daily lectionary, you'll need to treat a lot of them as 'Third Class', i.e. ferial psalms and antiphons, with additions to MP or EP post readings.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Has anyone ever tried to say the BCP offices according to the Churchman's Ordo Kalendar, either by simply using the proper collects for the day from the Anglican Missal or going all out and plugging in the antiphons, hymns, versicles, and collects proper to the day, in the manner of the English Office, but taken from the Anglican Breviary?
quote:You're absolutely right. After some consultation with a trusted office advisor, I decided to follow the Simplified Kalendar instead.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
A number of folks in our church do use the Churchman's Ordo as a basis for BCP daily prayer. It makes for a lot of feasts. To have any semblance of sticking with the daily lectionary, you'll need to treat a lot of them as 'Third Class', i.e. ferial psalms and antiphons, with additions to MP or EP post readings.
quote:In our sacristy at Ascension, Chicago, there's the Churchman's Ordo Kalendar (the enhanced Anglo-Catholic version with added non-BCP and non-LFF feasts in brackets, like Sacred Heart), but this is used more by the sacristans (to determine liturgical colors and mark the books) for Mass than by Office officiants. The office is affected only by BCP holy days for which proper psalms and lessons are given in the office lectionary. If it's a lesser feast like William Laud or Julian of Norwich, the office will be ferial, except at Evening Prayer the officiant may choose to read the lesson from They Still Speak that applies to the commemoration. The collect and lessons of the lesser feast are used at Mass.
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Haven't done this, but a number of folks in our church do use the Churchman's Ordo as a basis for BCP daily prayer. It makes for a lot of feasts. To have any semblance of sticking with the daily lectionary, you'll need to treat a lot of them as 'Third Class', i.e. ferial psalms and antiphons, with additions to MP or EP post readings.
quote:Welcome, Br. Scapular, and
Originally posted by Br. Scapular:
I'm not a very regular reader of SoF, alas, but when I do I always try to catch up on what's new in the Daily Office thread.
for the link to Oceanside's books for sale. I'm contemplating the Saint Meinrad vespers psalter but may opt to be happy with a great two-volume Breviarium Monasticum and separate psalter volume that I got some years ago via eBay from a convent whose nuns took exquisite care of the books. They had been covered with handmade dust jackets that kept dirt and oils off the covers; they're practically in new condition, although the paper seems like it won't last forever. quote:Oh yes, I know about that. I know a Shipmate around here who bought copies of a bilingual Missal (1964) from them, thus managing to beat a lot of excited MP types!
Originally posted by Br. Scapular:
I'm not a very regular reader of SoF, alas, but when I do I always try to catch up on what's new in the Daily Office thread.
As a former Benedictine monk (Anglican), I incorporate something of St. Benedict's scheme of prayer into my Daily Office, and as somewhat of a bibliophile, I was plesantly surprised to discover that Prince of Peace Abbey in Oceanside, California, is selling some of its older liturgical volumes. I placed an order, asked a couple of questions, and was even emailed photos of a title-page and sample page to help me decide about one item.
The list is available by clicking through on the "News" link from the Abbey's website. It seems to be kept up to date, as they no longer list having a four-volume Breviarium Monasticum (sorry, I got the only Aestiva, I guess). Other complete sets of that work are still available in two-volume sets, however, as is the Antiphonale Monasticum (for those of you who chant the office or are musically inclined), and various other liturgical works.
I can't imagine any group of folks who might be more interested in this sale that my fellow Daily Office thread readers, so I wanted to post the information for you. I don't think one finds monastic (OSB) liturgical books coming onto the open market often.
Best wishes, and thank you all for the highly informative, and civilized, conversation that you keep running on this thread!
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace
Posted 17 July, 2007 14:15
An update and a few vaguely related questions, which might be better on another thread but this one's not being used any more [Biased]
I went down the route of acquiring a copy of Exciting Holiness and in a fit a financial slackness decided to upgrade my Office book from CCP Pocket Edition to Comic Worship Daily Prayer. I'm now a bit stuck as to how to weld the two together along with the Lectionary to produce something that's not a bit of a mess.
For those who aren't familiar with CWDP you have Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer following the pattern of CCP, and you have Daily Prayer and Night Prayer. Various combinations are suggested, such as
1. MP and EP
2. DP and NP
3. MP, DP as Midday Prayer, EP, NP
It gets worse. There are several schemes suggested for the psalmody. If using MP and EP, you can follow the Lectionary in full and use the shorter cycles or short responsorials for DP and NP. Or you can do it the other way round.
Then there's the readings. You can follow the full Lectionary for MP and EP, or you can pick strands, or you can make it up as you go along.
Add in Exciting Holiness - do you replace the psalmody from the lectionary with the EH ones? What about the readings and collects? How do you handle it when only some readings are given? Is there a rule for distinguishing between Principal Feasts, Festivals, Lesser Festivals and Commemorations? And so on.
Here's my first attempt at working it out, which I present in the hope of constructive criticism. Much as I'd like to do the lot, I haven't got time so I need to be a bit selective.
Morning Prayer:
Brief life of the Saint from EH if given.
Bold-face psalm from Lectionary.
One of the readings from Lectionary.
Collect from CWDP propers.
Principal Feasts and Festivals: One extra reading from EH. Gloria in Excelsis before Conclusion outside Advent/Lent.
Evening Prayer:
Bold-face psalm from Lectionary.
One of the readings from Lectionary.
Collect from CWDP propers.
Principal Feasts and Festivals: One extra reading from EH. Nunc Dimittis before Conclusion outside Advent/Lent.
Compline: used as occasional alternative to EP.
As written in CWDP using seasonal and commons variations
Does that all look fairly sensible?
Singing the psalms
Supplementary question. I'd like to chant the psalms using Common Worship texts. The only resource I have is the Parish Psalter which uses the Coverdale texts and the CW Psalter isn't pointed. Any suggestions?
quote:Divine Office, do you still use this volume, and if so, do you supplement Lauds and Vespers with materials for feasts and memorials?
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Got a copy of the new enlarged Lauds and Vespers today by Fr Peter Stravinskas which is published by Newman House Press. It contains Morning and Evening Prayer in Latin from the Liturgia Horarum with a parallel English translation (including some good translations of the office hymns) for Ordinary Time, the Christmas season, Advent, Lent, Holy Week and the Easter Season, along with a few major feasts such as The Sacred Heart and Christ the King.
It does not, however, have the propers for all of the remaining feasts and memorials in the Roman calendar. Hopefully a second volume may appear in due course with these, as well as perhaps the orders for the Office of Readings, Prayer during the Day and Compline.
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:I've done things like this, and they help, but the next day I'm usually loath to try to repeat the experience, as I forget what I did, and the whole exercise violates my preference for a one-book Office. I should add that I do violate that regularly, though.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Anyone ever try using the LitPress BENEDICTINE DAILY PRAYER with a liturgical "booster" like S. DUNSTAN'S PLAINSONG PSALTER? If so, did it make it bearable or did the responsories still sink the endeavor?
quote:Having a one-book Office is a dream of mine. I am currently on a four-book Office right now!
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
...the whole exercise violates my preference for a one-book Office. I should add that I do violate that regularly, though.
quote:Four books at a time, so you have to use them all in a day? Or four seasonal books, one at a time? I still count the latter as a one-book office.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Having a one-book Office is a dream of mine. I am currently on a four-book Office right now!
I guess I'll have to start on my own (the project that is ever planned and never done).
quote:Exactly what I was wondering. I use an office which has three seasonal books, although I would arguably need another book - a Martyrology - to do things "properly."
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:Four books at a time, so you have to use them all in a day? Or four seasonal books, one at a time? I still count the latter as a one-book office.
Originally posted by Martin L:
Having a one-book Office is a dream of mine. I am currently on a four-book Office right now!
I guess I'll have to start on my own (the project that is ever planned and never done).
quote:The former, I'm afraid. I bought Daily Office Readings from the Early Church (based on a recommendation by a Shipmate who shall remain nameless), and it expanded my reading load.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Four books at a time, so you have to use them all in a day? Or four seasonal books, one at a time? I still count the latter as a one-book office.
quote:Also, when using CW:DP I think everyone here knows it is customary to say the antiphon AFTER the gloria, but the printing of the CW:DP makes it much easier to say the final gloria after the last antiphon and psalm-prayer. Is a new custom emerging?
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I have a question concerning the missing "Amen" at the end of the Psalm-prayer in the Commn Worship: Daily Prayer.,
When praying the prayer on line or with the book, most people with me don't seem to want to say "Amen" because it isn't printed.
What to do? I assume the "Amen" isn't printed because the pray is optional, but I find it hard for to keep bitten Anglicans tongues at the phrase "through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Do you or anyone you know routinely add or leave omitted the "Amen" at the end of CW:DP psalm-prayer?
quote:One of the great joys of my recent retreat at Saint Meinrad Archabbey was entering with bated breath into the holy of holies, the Scholar Shop (student bookstore) and finding exactly the three volumes of The Word in Season that my collection lacked. I had been under the impression that some volumes were out of print or had never appeared. It appears that this was Volume IV, the Sanctoral, and I have that in a pristine hardcover edition. Only $45 for the three. (This series uses the two-year form of the LotH first-reading lectionary for Vigils/Office of Readings and provides very meaty second readings from sources ancient and modern). It's meant for monastic use but can also mightily beef up one's praying of the LotH or BDP.
Originally posted by Martin L:
I bought Daily Office Readings from the Early Church (based on a recommendation by a Shipmate who shall remain nameless), and it expanded my reading load.
quote:I use the ENGLISH OFFICE and '28 BCP, and have struggled to find compatible Little Hours (or a single midday hour) and Compline. More often than not I use the forms for Sext and Compline in the old MANUAL OF CATHOLIC DEVOTION and say Psalm 119 over a week at Sext. I tried the Lesser Hours booklet from the Convent Society but got frustrated with all the flipping around.
Originally posted by PD:
The English Office has a better - that is less confusing - layout, but the lack of the Lesser Hours it is a bit of a downer, as is the fact they give only one office hymn per service.
quote:I have only once ever seen the Psalm prayers cited. In Pfatteicher's (US Lutheran) Daily Prayer of the Church, he very diligently gives credit where credit is due. Those prayers come from all over, and I suspect the CW ones do as well. The primary sources for the DPotC prayers are the LOTH and ancient sacramentaries. Some were composed by individuals, and the names are usually recognizable names in the modern liturgical world.
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Have any idea who wrote them?
quote:Welcome to the club. I'm trying to cut down on books, I really am, but if I'm going to make commemoration of somebody I've never heard of, I like to know a bit more about that person. One day that novel...erm, breviary...will get started!
Originally posted by lukacs:
So, Martin L, that's four books for me as well...
quote:Perhaps this thread should come with the tagline--If we don't know the answer, then there isn't one.
Originally posted by jlg:
Yes. Along with noticing that people's questions aren't getting answered.
quote:Hi lukacs. Sorry for the delay in replying as I've been a bit preoccupied recently.
Divine Office, do you still use this volume, and if so, do you supplement Lauds and Vespers with materials for feasts and memorials?
quote:I presume the logic to be that since the laity are not obligated to pray the Office, there is no need to permit them to say the Roman Breviary; however, it would seem to me that giving clergy permission to fulfill their obligation with the Breviary would affirm its use by the laity by association.
What about the former edition of the Liturgy of the Hours or Breviary?
Yes, the clergy may use the former Roman Breviary to fulfill their obligation to pray the Liturgy of the Hours or Divine Office.
quote:That's always been my presumption.
Originally posted by lukacs:
Here is a pertinent section from a MP Q&A on EWTN's website http://tinyurl.com/2worqb :
quote:I presume the logic to be that since the laity are not obligated to pray the Office, there is no need to permit them to say the Roman Breviary.
What about the former edition of the Liturgy of the Hours or Breviary?
Yes, the clergy may use the former Roman Breviary to fulfill their obligation to pray the Liturgy of the Hours or Divine Office.
quote:You have received a wonderful set of books, and in the case of the PBO, very hard to find. I assume you're using the Daily Office Book (2 vols.) from Church Publishing. The Contemporary Office Book you've been given is the same except with Rite II offices only, and the NRSV readings instead of RSV (Bible version). And all in one volume instead of two. Works the same way as one of your Daily Office Books.
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
This is probably a Daily Offices 101 question, but I need someone to ask.
I received as a present from someone who reads the Daily Office three books.
1) A Green book that says, The Prayer Book Office
2) A Black book that says, Contemporary Office Book
3) A Maroon book that says, Reading for the Daily Office from the Early Church.
As when I usually read the offices, which I mean to start doing again, I use my Daily Office books.
I don't know if these are the same as those (Excepting the Early Church book), or different. Can someone help?
quote:What Scott said, and two things must be noted.
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
I received as a present from someone who reads the Daily Office three books.
quote:I just got around to your other thread and followed jlg's link here.
Originally posted by jlg:
I have copied this from another thread, since this would seem to be the proper place for it:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace
Posted 17 July, 2007 14:15
An update and a few vaguely related questions, which might be better on another thread but this one's not being used any more [Biased] <snip>
quote:Thanks for the link, lukacs.
Originally posted by lukacs:
I recommended the Holy Cross MONASTIC BREVIARY in a prior post on this thread, and the monks have now made it a little easier to purchase:
http://tinyurl.com/2heyxo
quote:I can. I've long considered it my Anglo-Catholic ID card.
Originally posted by Martin L:
So, who can tell me more about the St. Augustine's Prayer Book at the link?
quote:Oh, that does ring a bell.
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I can. I've long considered it my Anglo-Catholic ID card.
quote:Did anyone else click on the photo gallery link from the monks' home page, then on Br Bernard's photos, and marvel at the number of pictures of scantily-clad young ladies dancing?
Originally posted by lukacs:
I recommended the Holy Cross MONASTIC BREVIARY in a prior post on this thread, and the monks have now made it a little easier to purchase:
http://tinyurl.com/2heyxo
quote:Custody of the eyes, man! Custody of the eyes!
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:Did anyone else click on the photo gallery link from the monks' home page, then on Br Bernard's photos, and marvel at the number of pictures of scantily-clad young ladies dancing?
Originally posted by lukacs:
I recommended the Holy Cross MONASTIC BREVIARY in a prior post on this thread, and the monks have now made it a little easier to purchase:
http://tinyurl.com/2heyxo
I daren't click on Br Randy's photos!
Dave
quote:I take it you looked, then ;-)
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
Custody of the eyes, man! Custody of the eyes!
quote:Glued-in supplement? I didn't get a glued-in supplement.
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Scott, I've got one of those and the guy two offices down has an even older, black covered one. The basic difference is the omission of the 43rd Psalm in the preparation, reflecting the Mass of Vatican II, the one between Trent and Novus Ordo, the same as in the glued in supplement to the last edition of ritual notes.
quote:I don't have the Mundeline Psalter (yet)--but you are not mistaken. The Gospel Canticles always include the intonation. And, if I recall correctly the Venite does as well.
Originally posted by FCB:
I have a question for those who have The Mundeline Psalter:
I was under the impression that the music for the Gospel Canticles had intoning notes (I think that's what you call them -- the rising notes prior to the reciting note) at the beginning of each line (in contrast with the tones for the psalms, which lack this). But I notice that this is not true in The Mundeline Psalter. Was I mistaken about this being the custom?
quote:That's the custom with the traditional Gregorian psalm tones, but not with simplified ones like the St Meinrad tones (whether four-line ones or the two-line Mundelein Psalter ones). These latter tones are used in the same way in the Gospel canticles as they are in the psalms.
Originally posted by FCB:
I have a question for those who have The Mundeline Psalter:
I was under the impression that the music for the Gospel Canticles had intoning notes (I think that's what you call them -- the rising notes prior to the reciting note) at the beginning of each line (in contrast with the tones for the psalms, which lack this). But I notice that this is not true in The Mundeline Psalter. Was I mistaken about this being the custom?
quote:Yes, and I'm told there will eventually be a version for PocketPC (Windows Mobile).
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Has anyone prayed with the “eCP: electronic Common Prayer” software for Palm devices?
