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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: SF - How far is too far?
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Welcome back Ultraspike. It is hard to see somone I respect smacking their head against our alt.worship wall. Perhaps I can remind you of what I posted earlier in the thread quote:
The regular contributors here are not trying to be relevant for the "yoof". They are expressing their own culture in the way they worship. for example s3 services range in age between teens and sixties.
Many people here think that I am up the wall because we have had devotions to our lady in our alt.worship, but the express their reservations politely, because: quote:
The regular contributors here use this is as an open creative forum, not just somewhere to argue over "the best way to do something", and certainly not somewhere to ridicule other peoples ideas.
Also please remember that: quote:
The regular contributors here are from a range of church backgrounds and experiences. For some Alt.Worship is their main expression of church, for others it is just part of it. Do not make any assumptions about the "churchpersonship" of alt.worship. It doesn't have one.
If you want to start a "alt.worship is crap thread" it can go next to a "ultra-montainism is a scourge on the church" thread in Hell.
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Ultraspike
Incensemeister
# 268
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Posted
okey-dokey. 
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A cowgirl's work is never done.
Posts: 2732 | From: NYC | Registered: May 2001
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Septimus
Shipmate
# 500
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by see-man:
The truth, of course, pretty much always lies somewhere in the middle.
This truth, of course depends on where either end starts off. The middle is also a place where fences are often to be found. I have to say that this thread is one of the most interesting that has been dragged into existence for AGES; it's got everything, bannings, rude words, pretentious crocks. Any thread which has Wood agreeing with Cosmo is bound to be a corker. See-man you should pop over to MW some day... see if you can cope with the uneasy middle ground being churned over there S.
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"The man of 'perfect manners' is he who is calmly courteous in all circumstances, as attentive outwardly to the plain and the elderly as he is to the young and the pretty."
Mrs. Humphrey, Manners for Men
Posts: 442 | From: England's Garden Gnome | Registered: Jun 2001
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DrSnoop
Apprentice
# 2399
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Posted
The Dirt service sounds like it is revisiting the same themes as the "Walking Wounded" service from Greenbelt 2000. From what I understand, vaux were trying to explode the perfection
myth. Realising that Eden can never be revisited. Even asking uncomfortable questions of God, like: "why do we have to scream our way through the torture chamber of life?".
A refreshing and liberating antidote to a lot of contemporary church experience
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freebasing on archetypes
Posts: 9 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
And who's to say what kind of bog I had in mind?
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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see-man
Apprentice
# 2331
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Posted
Do people really have a problem with Jesus on the bog? I mean, he did have to take a crap didn't he? He was fully human... I think we have a genuine problem with admitting this. It's easier to see Jesus as all on high, and forget that he was born a baby, probably screamed, got stroppy, went through adolesence... my goodness, he might have even had a wet dream or two.... Does this strengthen or undermine our vision of Christ? Surely it must strengthen it. Only when we come to terms with Christ's real humanity is his divinity so incredible. And I think the concept of dirt helps that. It undermines our precious images of Christ and brings him 'back down to earth'...
The early Christians who knew Christ personally probably struggled more with the fact of his divinity. I think we now have the reverse problem. This service seems to be an attempt to re-dress the balance?
Posts: 19 | From: Staines | Registered: Feb 2002
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jesus
Apprentice
# 2444
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Posted
Jesus says Vaux rocks!
Posts: 1 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Jesus is your legal name, right?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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i and i
Shipmate
# 2189
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Posted
i'm amazed that some christians seem to think that the crucifixion was a clean thing, or that bread and wine was not alternative itself.
Posts: 244 | From: -usually london | Registered: Jan 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by see-man:
Do people really have a problem with Jesus on the bog? I mean, he did have to take a crap didn't he? He was fully human...
And is, too. I wonder, since I believe in the bodily Resurrection of all of us from the dead at the End Of Time (but really the beginning after this "false start" full of sin and pain), how will our lavatory functions (I think we will still eat, after all) be? Will it be more or less the same as it is now, only without any health problems, and without the shame/embarrassment/etc. we usually have about them? Not to dwell on it, but just a thought. All of our fears and phobias gone -- as well as any genuinely morbid fascinations with it. No more confusion of spiritual with bodily uncleanness, as well...Yes, thinking about how Our Lord dealt with those things has helped me, believe it or not. As I've posted elsewhere, I didn't come to Christianity with much liking for bodies (mine or anyone's) -- thought of them as more a vessel to carry one's mind in, at best -- at worst perhaps a frustrating obstacle -- very Gnostic -- it was Christianity which hammered in that bodies were good, that God doesn't make junk ("God likes matter; He invented it, after all" -- C.S. Lewis), etc. and that even those "Yuck, how disgusting" bodily functions are a part of His Divine plan, which even He, incarnate as Jesus, has dealt with. Even silly little things -- Jesus had (and has) toes! Little wiggly silly mostly-useless-for-picking-things-up toes! And a bum! And a penis! Wow! -- have meant a lot to me in accepting being human. Not just Jesus' humanity -- my own. How to approach such matters is a different thing. And how to approach them in a specifically Eucharistic service is also a different thing. But then that's what this board is here to discuss... on the one hand we don't want to present real stumbling blocks for those who might be harmed by them; on the other, we want to be able to reach out to, and help, those who need "special" treatment. Maybe some of us, in our very anti-body (ironically I think we are very anti-body -- we see the apparent nude in advertising but this is not the same as handling our "earthy" side with grace -- handling the idealised and sexualised image of others is not the same as accepting our own, for instance) society, need a Christian approach to our bodies -- but how do we go about it without causing problems for others?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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DrSnoop
Apprentice
# 2399
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Posted
Milan Kundera has got some great stuff in Unbearable Lightness of Being. That basically states that if shit is unacceptable, so is God.
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freebasing on archetypes
Posts: 9 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002
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Esmeralda
Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582
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Posted
Just an observation - seems to me people's response to 'God is in the shit' may depend on how much of the stuff has landed/is currently landing in their life. Speaking as someone who's had:
- most of family lost in Holocaust
- brother's mental illness and suicide
- twenty-five years of depression
- infertility
- breast cancer
I find 'God is in the shit' extremely reassuring.
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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/
Posts: 17415 | From: A small island nobody pays any attention to | Registered: Jun 2001
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spookdup
Apprentice
# 1272
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Posted
I agree -
Nice one cloud 
Posts: 7 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2001
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
I was moved to tears, even by the report. Had I been there who knows? Thankyou Vaux you are an oasis in an otherwise mundane church. Keep close to Him and say it like it is!
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Depends on what one means by "dirt." We are told that there will be no more sorrow or grief or pain, that God will wipe away every tear. At the same time, we will have bodies (which I presume will eat -- Jesus did after He rose again), etc. Presumably with excretions and secretions and all the things which make them bodies and not statues. But redeemed bodies with redeemed processes. I think, whatever they are like, we shall no longer feel disgusted by them as we do now.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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DrSnoop
Apprentice
# 2399
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Posted
I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips
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freebasing on archetypes
Posts: 9 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002
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LittleMonkey
Apprentice
# 2664
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Posted
Err Ed, I hate to side with Snoop here, but doesn't that post kind of sum things up here?!
We are all of unclean lips, we live among people of unclean lips... that's surely what this whole 'dirt' thing that Vaux seem to have touched on is about.
To admit that I am unclean is a major step forward. I am dirt. I live in dirt.
If Isaiah is not 'substantive' then what can be? Or are we a little too 'alternative' to quote Scripture here?
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2002
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DrSnoop
Apprentice
# 2399
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Posted
(-!
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freebasing on archetypes
Posts: 9 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002
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see-man
Apprentice
# 2331
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Posted
Well, Snoop - that WAS an unsubstantive reply - but ignoring personal point-scoring, glad this thread still has life in it...
I have to agree with the LittleMonkey - and so with Snoop's earlier post - that the admission of our dirt is an important step. Didn't Jesus say something about coming for the sick, not for the healthy?
Too often the church has taken a 'holier than thou' attitude, and this has turned people off... Which is the huge irony when Jesus seemed to go out of his way to reach lepers, prostitutes, tax-frauds etc. Haven't we left something vital out of things if we can't deal with this anymore?
Much of the current press about the Vatican finally admitting it's complicity with the holocaust, and talking about paedophilia within the church is surely a positive step - hiding dirt is never healthy. We all need to do like Isaiah and admit that we are dirt, and live among the dirt. Only then we might be ready for salvation - or are we a bit self righteous for patronising concepts like that now?
Posts: 19 | From: Staines | Registered: Feb 2002
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Unkl Davy
Shipmate
# 2777
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Posted
Perhaps this kind of thing is meaningful to some... and might even help them to confess their sins to a God who will walk with them in their filth. But I am quite well aware of the "sh*t" in my life and that my Father has been more than gracious, forgiving and patent with me as I still linger there all to often.
Though He is willing to reach into my filth to rescue me, I’m quite sure He has no intentions of making a home there, or allowing me to make a permanent home there.
Isn’t the objective to leave the filth? Or are there folks who want to accepted by God as the are and then just stay where they are?
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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"Lately, everything has been coming my way ... I think I'm in the wrong lane."
Posts: 216 | From: Silicon Valley | Registered: May 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
So once you hook up with God, all of the bad stuff in life is supposed to stop? Hmmm... I must have done something really wrong.
Since there is still shit in my life, I am ecstatic that He is in it with me.
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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LittleMonkey
Apprentice
# 2664
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Posted
Miss Dree-Saint.
There’s also the aspect that the so called "filth" informs who you are. Filth, wether you like it or not is part of the many forces that formulates your personality.
Have ago at embracing your shadow –
you may like it.
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2002
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