quote:

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Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:


One of my family's favorite games to play is "Spot the Aspy." It's pretty self-explanitory. Next time you are in a large social situation, try it. I promise laughter and merriment for hours...

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Would that be the people not making appropriate eye contact with folks at a social gathering/leaving early/asleep in the corner/reading a map rather than making conversation/doing the washing up in the kitchen because a task has a purpose?
 

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Posted by WatersOfBabylon (# 11893) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

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Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:


One of my family's favorite games to play is "Spot the Aspy." It's pretty self-explanitory. Next time you are in a large social situation, try it. I promise laughter and merriment for hours...

---

Would that be the people not making appropriate eye contact with folks at a social gathering/leaving early/asleep in the corner/reading a map rather than making conversation/doing the washing up in the kitchen because a task has a purpose?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by amber32002:
I personally also find it really difficult to recognise people if they're in a crowd or out of context ("hmm, tall chap, blonde hair...who can it be...ah yes, my son!") though not everyone has that problem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:

quote:

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Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

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Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:


One of my family's favorite games to play is "Spot the Aspy." It's pretty self-explanitory. Next time you are in a large social situation, try it. I promise laughter and merriment for hours...

---

Would that be the people not making appropriate eye contact with folks at a social gathering/leaving early/asleep in the corner/reading a map rather than making conversation/doing the washing up in the kitchen because a task has a purpose?

---

ding ding ding! We have a winner!

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Ah, that'll be me. It was only on a page about AS that I learnt that one is not meant to sit and read a book when one is a guest at someone's house. But I hate washing up.

It's awful being at a party when you can see a really interesting bookcase. Some bugger will have something like English Word Origins or <Insert Name of County Here> in the 1700s and The Rules say you can't just pull it off the shelves and spend the evening on it.
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
Thanks for the responses so far!

For those of you who discovered you have Asperger's (either officially or unofficially) in adulthood, what was your reaction, and how did you cope with the realization? That's pretty much what I'm struggling with right now.

On one hand, it's a relief to feel like I've finally put enough of the jigsaw puzzle together to have some clue about what makes me tick, and I've already found some great support sites online that seem to be full of interesting people I can actually relate to.

On the other hand, I'm feeling a great deal of anger and sadness that I've pissed away 32 years of my life trying in vain to "fit in" and "be normal", and feeling that my social awkwardness and lack of empathy was the result of some moral flaw or character defect... Only to now discover that this is who I really am, and it probably isn't going to change.

[ 11. January 2008, 14:25: Message edited by: Living in Gin ]
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
I personally also find it really difficult to recognise people if they're in a crowd or out of context ("hmm, tall chap, blonde hair...who can it be...ah yes, my son!") though not everyone has that problem.

---

Face blindness?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

....It's awful being at a party when you can see a really interesting bookcase. Some bugger will have something like English Word Origins or <Insert Name of County Here> in the 1700s and The Rules say you can't just pull it off the shelves and spend the evening on it. [/QB]

---

Yup. New Year's Eve party, friend's house, lots of guests, bookshelf full of old historical stuff. I'd have been quite happy to pick a volume and sit down in a nice quiet corner to discuss it with one or two people,but instead we spent many hours discussing people, which I can do but with varying degrees of puzzlement.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I have a theory that many people who sing in church choirs have some of the traits of Asperger's. Especially the special interest, following rules, and extreme distress when the vicar decides to do something 'experimental'.

We used to have a fascinating chap in the choir who could tell you exactly which anthem he sang on which occasion and which date. He was also very pedantic. He had a son with Autism, so it may have run in the family with different degrees of severity. We had a woman in the choir with very fixed ideas and difficulty with getting on with anyone socially. I wonder about her, too.

Of course, I'm perfectly normal.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
LiG - it was a relief. It explained why I'd always elicited odd reactions in people. It also allowed me to make the necessary adjustments to myself (SWMBO had already told me that I had a habit of "banging on" and needed to look at people's faces to find out whether I'd gone on long enough about something).

Can I float a theory about AS kids at school? I under-achieved quite badly, comparing my end results with the expectations my teachers had. I think AS kids might have a danger of underachieving (or appearing to do so), for two reasons:

a) teaching methods and school environments are designed for the NT kids, and don't necessarily work for us (put it another way, it's hard to concentrate when you're having your head flushed down the bog every other day for being the school weirdo)

b) our tendency to precise and formal speech in colloquial situations might make our teachers think that we're actually more academic than we are. They tend to think that the kid of 9 who informs them that "the atmosphere on Mars used to be thought to contain oxygen, but it appears actually to have very little and be mostly carbon dioxide, so eukaryotic life there is extremely unlikely" is Nobel Prize material; actually, he's probably just obsessed with planets and has a good book on Mars
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I wonder if I fit here?

Not an Aspie but ...

Very high levels of social anxiety, extreme introvert, partly natural part due to bad experience.

Yes you will find me in the church kitchen (well I was practically born there) or leaving early but I do make eye contact and such. Get me in a small group and I am fine, get me in a large gathering and I feel a pressure of people and myself shutting down i.e. my ability to respond is less nuanced by the effort so to do.

Bascially I tick some but not all boxes.

Jengie
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
Thanks for the responses so far!

For those of you who discovered you have Asperger's (either officially or unofficially) in adulthood, what was your reaction, and how did you cope with the realization? That's pretty much what I'm struggling with right now.

On one hand, it's a relief to feel like I've finally put enough of the jigsaw puzzle together to have some clue about what makes me tick, and I've already found some great support sites online that seem to be full of interesting people I can actually relate to.

On the other hand, I'm feeling a great deal of anger and sadness that I've pissed away 32 years of my life trying in vain to "fit in" and "be normal", and feeling that my social awkwardness and lack of empathy was the result of some moral flaw or character defect... Only to now discover that this is who I really am, and it probably isn't going to change.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...They tend to think that the kid of 9 who informs them that "the atmosphere on Mars used to be thought to contain oxygen, but it appears actually to have very little and be mostly carbon dioxide, so eukaryotic life there is extremely unlikely" is Nobel Prize material; actually, he's probably just obsessed with planets and has a good book on Mars [/QB]

---

Don't even get me started on science...
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
I have a theory that many people who sing in church choirs have some of the traits of Asperger's. Especially the special interest, following rules, and extreme distress when the vicar decides to do something 'experimental'.

---

Sounds like most of the people in Ecclesiantics... No wonder I spend so much time on that board.

I'm also a train buff, and I'm fascinated by trains and transit infrastructure... I dare you to ask me about the differences between New York City subway's IRT, BMT, and IND divisions.

My primary obsession as a child was designing buildings, and I naturally picked architecture as a career... I'm pretty much convinced that this profession is loaded with Aspies, and it even plays into the age-old stereotype of architects being socially-dysfunctional geniuses who relate better to buildings than they do to people.

Looking back, I'm pretty confident that most of my best friendships and romantic relationships have been with people who may have some form of Asperger's, or who at least share some of the common traits.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I wonder if I fit here?

Not an Aspie but ...

Very high levels of social anxiety, extreme introvert, partly natural part due to bad experience.

Yes you will find me in the church kitchen (well I was practically born there) or leaving early but I do make eye contact and such. Get me in a small group and I am fine, get me in a large gathering and I feel a pressure of people and myself shutting down i.e. my ability to respond is less nuanced by the effort so to do.

Bascially I tick some but not all boxes.

Jengie

---

Yes, I think you fit in just fine
Might not be aspie, but the social anxiety thing is something that I can relate to. It's taken me years to work out which questions are "acceptable" and will get people talking for long enough for me to think of the next one whilst remembering the right body language and eye contact and nodding and verbal feedback and also processing what they've said in case it's something dreadfully sad or a joke, in which case I have to work out which facial expressions are needed next.
 

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Posted by mountainsnowtiger (# 11152) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
For us, our 'communication style' is often just considered "rude" and we're not allowed to do it. Certainly very very few other people expect to try to alter their own communcation style to make it fair for us. That's the level of misunderstanding/difference. Very frustrating and tiring to be the ones who always have to cope with NT behaviour.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:
One of my family's favorite games to play is "Spot the Aspy." It's pretty self-explanitory. Next time you are in a large social situation, try it. I promise laughter and merriment for hours...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I dare you to ask me about the differences between New York City subway's IRT, BMT, and IND divisions.

My primary obsession as a child was designing buildings, and I naturally picked architecture as a career... I'm pretty much convinced that this profession is loaded with Aspies, and it even plays into the age-old stereotype of architects being socially-dysfunctional geniuses who relate better to buildings than they do to people.

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
a) teaching methods and school environments are designed for the NT kids, and don't necessarily work for us (put it another way, it's hard to concentrate when you're having your head flushed down the bog every other day for being the school weirdo)

---

So true... I was always placed into the "gifted" classes because of my high IQ score, but more often than not, would usually flunk out and get shunted back to the regular classes because I was always distracted with other interests, or trying to avoid getting the shit kicked out of me during recess. Yeah, good times....

Things have improved greatly for me since beginning college, especially as I've progressed into more advanced-level courses. There's much more flexibility to explore my own interests and make use of my own learning styles. As a bonus, beating up weirdos is generally frowned upon in a university setting.

quote:

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Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
My family enjoys doing this to characters in films.

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I've been looking back at some of my favorite films, and discovering that I empathize with many characters who display Aspie traits, especially people like your stereotypical 1940's film noir detective. Think of Harrison Ford's Deckard character in Blade Runner, probably my all-time favorite film, or Detective Bumstead in Dark City, another favorite.

And of course, there's Garth in Wayne's World. If he's not Aspie, nobody is.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
..Can a sympathetic but relatively-uneducated NT person ask a question here?

If I meet / am at a gathering with somebody who has AS, what changes should I be making to my communication style? How can I make an Aspie more comfortable and for once make myself the person who's adapting her own preferred style of communication rather than expecting the Aspie to adapt theirs, please? [/QB]

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You certainly can ask anything you like (well, within reason... )

I can only speak for myself, though. I would rather be doing something than looking at someone face to face. If I do have to look at someone, I might not be able to also 'hear' what you say, so standing slightly at an angle to someone. e.g. looking out at a view whilst talking to them, is a lot easier than the standard NT way of facing directly at them and looking directly at them. I talk with people whilst I'm driving, or whilst walking along, mostly, or whilst doing a task or studying a painting or something else "neutral".

Please also consider what you say. We're literal, so if you say "Let's all stand and sing the hymn on the overhead projector", the aspies will be thinking "no, we'll never all fit on there, matey", and young aspies might even try to climb on it. A Bishop once wrote to me to say "the Church often shoots its best friends". I'm sure he didn't mean it literally, but I've always kept a careful watch for shotguns in his office ever since

I tell people to think of me as a computer that's trying to learn to be friendly in the right way. If you don't ask a specific question or phrase things in a logical way, you'll get some slightly odd answers or a blank look.

Mostly, of course, we're used to coping and will tolerate NT behaviour for as long as we can before collapsing/falling asleep through exhaustion/making a (hopefully) polite excuse to leave early if it's too much.

If you ask us to do something, please can you say exactly what, where, how long for? Even 'where to sit' can be a challenge, and I really like it when people indicate which chair they'd like me to sit on rather than expecting me to know which one to pick.

Find out what we can do rather than worrying about what we can't. We're often excellent at church admin, taking minutes, doing the accounts, the artwork, the music, etc. We're often really concerned about social justice issues and are good at policy-writing or with computers. Not always. Some will struggle.

Whatever the abilities or challenges of the person you're with, value them as a fellow human being, someone with much to bring to each community and someone who probably would absolutely love to have more friends (if only they could work out how ...)
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
For us, our 'communication style' is often just considered "rude" and we're not allowed to do it. Certainly very very few other people expect to try to alter their own communcation style to make it fair for us. That's the level of misunderstanding/difference. Very frustrating and tiring to be the ones who always have to cope with NT behaviour.

---

Can a sympathetic but relatively-uneducated NT person ask a question here?

If I meet / am at a gathering with somebody who has AS, what changes should I be making to my communication style? How can I make an Aspie more comfortable and for once make myself the person who's adapting her own preferred style of communication rather than expecting the Aspie to adapt theirs, please?

---

It might be very hard, because you've not had the practice we have

It can be summed up as "say what you mean, and mean what you say". Don't expect your tone of voice or gestures to express part of what you're saying. It's a bit like posting on the Ship, really, where tones of voice and gestures are not communicated. Think how what you're saying could be ambiguous, and imagine the Aspie cannot see your face and is reading rather than hearing what you're saying.

The vast majority of us can read body language, gestures and tones of voice to a certain extent. But since you don't know to what extent, assume "not much".

If the Aspie starts a monologue on a topic of their choice which bores you to tears, do not nod politely or say "that's interesting", because that's an invitation to dispense Pet Topic 201 as well. Listen for a polite interval, and then change the subject. And don't think you can do that subtly. You may have to say "I'm not really into X myself. What do you think about Y?". Yawning, looking the other way and the other NT signals that you're being bored may not work.
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

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Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I dare you to ask me about the differences between New York City subway's IRT, BMT, and IND divisions.

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Weren't they the three different transit agencies before the 1940s?

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Yes. The IRT (Interboro Rapid Transit) and BMT (Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit) were originally private railroads, while the IND (Independent Subway) was built by the city.

Now they're all part of one system. Today's numbered routes are the former IRT lines, while today's lettered routes are the former BMT and IND lines.

There are ways to tell the former BMT and IND lines apart from each other, but I'll stop here before somebody reaches through the screen and shoots me in the face.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
Also, to be sure we include those who are further on the spectrum, the 1 in a 100 people in the world who are on the autistic spectrum also includes a lot who are Autistic rather than having the Asperger's Syndrome sort of autism. They have a lot more difficulty coping, and some are very profoundly disabled.

Often they and their families would love to be included at church, and be supported through pastoral care. Jean Vanier has much to say about how we can value and include everyone including the most profoundly disabled people, and how much they can teach us about our faith. Worth getting one of his books or seeking out his online interviews.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Incidently, Amber's talking about quite seriously affected Aspies. I don't think I'd ever have misunderstood "stand and sing the song on the OHP", but I did once rather foolishly pull my socks up in front of my primary head in response to her comment that I needed to do so.

She wasn't amused.
 

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Posted by Birdseye (# 5280) on :
 

quote:

---

For those of you who discovered you have Asperger's (either officially or unofficially) in adulthood, what was your reaction, and how did you cope with the realization? That's pretty much what I'm struggling with right now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Incidently, Amber's talking about quite seriously affected Aspies. I don't think I'd ever have misunderstood "stand and sing the song on the OHP", but I did once rather foolishly pull my socks up in front of my primary head in response to her comment that I needed to do so.

She wasn't amused.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I wonder if I fit here?

Not an Aspie but ...

Very high levels of social anxiety, extreme introvert, partly natural part due to bad experience.

Yes you will find me in the church kitchen (well I was practically born there) or leaving early but I do make eye contact and such. Get me in a small group and I am fine, get me in a large gathering and I feel a pressure of people and myself shutting down i.e. my ability to respond is less nuanced by the effort so to do.

Bascially I tick some but not all boxes.

Jengie

---

Some of this sounds a bit like me, although I tend to hide in the toilets when it all gets too much (so I try to make sure I position myself near an escape route) - I'm fine with small groups of people I know, or even complete strangers - the problem I have always found is those people you know the name of, what they do, etc. but have no idea what to actually try and talk to them about; I also really struggle to focus on what one person is saying when there is loads of noise around and there are only so many times I can ask them to repeat something before I just give up, usually when they start getting exasperated with me (found that if asked 'are you deaf?' and you answer 'I'm a bit worried that I might be slightly,' they go very quiet ).

flags x
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I dare you to ask me about the differences between New York City subway's IRT, BMT, and IND divisions.

---

Weren't they the three different transit agencies before the 1940s?

---

Yes. The IRT (Interboro Rapid Transit) and BMT (Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit) were originally private railroads, while the IND (Independent Subway) was built by the city.

Now they're all part of one system. Today's numbered routes are the former IRT lines, while today's lettered routes are the former BMT and IND lines.

There are ways to tell the former BMT and IND lines apart from each other, but I'll stop here before somebody reaches through the screen and shoots me in the face.

---

This is similar to the division between the London Underground's Metropolitan Line which remained independent of LU from its foundation in the 1860s until 1934, after all the other lines had been amalgamated by Yerkes in the 1900's. The sole exception is the Waterloo and City line which only has two stops, and, building built by the LSWR became part of SR, then BR, and was only taken over by LU in 1993.

I've often had to stop myself from starting a Purg thread on the wonders of metro systems and the like I'm don't think I'd place myself anywhere on the Asperger's Spectrum, but I do have some of the tendencies, as does my father (he says he can't do any activity without counting whatever it involves, his own footsteps if nothing else).

One of my younger brothers is very much moreso. He shares my obsession with the London Underground, to the extent of once vanishing for a whole day just to ride around on it. He's also very excessive about genealogies, mathematics, science-fiction shows and many other things.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
One quirk I have, which I don't know if AS related, is that I cannot stand the sound of people eating. I sometimes have to make excuses and leave the room if I finish before others (which I usually do), because it just draws my attention and it's like fingernails on a blackboard, only worse.

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quote:

---

I have issues with sound as well. I love steady sounds such as rainfall, the ocean

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Ooh -you would just LOVE Gamelan music -traditional rythmic wood and brass drumming from Bali (in case you don't know it already) it seems to bore some people to tears -but it is hypnotically soothing to me -and you might love it as much -it's one of the horrendously few things that can switch my brain off, imagine organised rainfall with a lilting musical undercurrent.
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
You're probably right... I'll have to check that out. I also love electronic atmospheric/ambient space music, which tends to be very smooth and rhythmic with subtle transitions between movements.

A few weeks ago I saw Radio Massacre International, one of my favorite bands, live in Philadelphia. I could swear most of the people in the audience were probably Aspies!

[ 11. January 2008, 15:48: Message edited by: Living in Gin ]
 

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Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :
 
As far as I can tell, I don't feature anywhere interesting on the Asperger/Autism spectrum, but something about both states of being fascinates me.
It's not the sort of fascinated that makes me want to run after you, shrink you, and view you through a microscope, it's just a general and genuine interest in a different perspective on the world. I've read quite a few books people with Aspergers or Autism have written about themselves and their lives, as well as a couple written by their families, and can imagine a bit that trying to 'fit in' to a world in which the majority of people operate in a different way to one is a bit knackering and can be a bit scary.

Some of the things you guys on this thread have been saying about 'where exactly do you want me to sit?', or wishing you could grab a book off of the shelf at a party (I just avoid parties, and now they avoid me, after 5 years off the social scene with M.E.!) or whatever just sort of make sense, but I know they don't fit into The Rules, and I've never had a particular difficulty in sussing out The Rules in most situations myself.

I was wondering, though (in an idle questioning and conceptual sort of way) if any of you could wave some sort of magic wand, would you change yourself to being 'neurotypical' or not? Would there be anything to gain from doing so, or would you lose more than you gained?
There's quite an interesting novel I read years ago (called "Speed of Dark", I think) in which a guy with Aspergers/mild Autism has to decide whether to be 'cured' or not.
It was really interesting, and was a really interesting question, well handled in a fictional setting.

I know this post doesn't add much to the thread, but I just thought I'd wave a textual hand around a bit and say hello
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
dj_ordinaire: Since we're talking about sounds and metro systems, I have to point out that I absolutely love the sound of the AC traction motors of the new Jubilee Line trains. Bliss!
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I'm fine with small groups of people I know, or even complete strangers - the problem I have always found is those people you know the name of, what they do, etc. but have no idea what to actually try and talk to them about; I also really struggle to focus on what one person is saying when there is loads of noise around and there are only so many times I can ask them to repeat something before I just give up.

---

That's me in every detail. Even with small groups of close friends, I'm usually "the quiet one," content to listen to the conversation rather than join in. "You're not saying anything, Amanda. Are you OK?" they'll ask.

I've been known to get up from the table in a restaurant and walk out if the conversation is such that I don't even want to listen, let alone join in.

With large groups, especially of strangers, I'm hopeless. I'll either keep completely to myself or allow myself to be honed in on by someone who, for whatever reason, has taken an interest in me. I've been known to walk into a room full of strangers, take a look around, and walk right back out again, using "panic attack" as an excuse.
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
Ditto here. If you really want to torture me, just throw me into the middle of a party and tell me to “mingle” for a while. Sometimes I get lucky and engage in some decent conversation if I meet the right person, but more likely I end up going home even more lonely and depressed than I was when I showed up.

Better yet, find a way to put me on the spot and watch me squirm. A couple years ago I was at a bar with some people I barely knew from my health club, and it turned out to be Karaoke Night at that particular bar. Oh, joy.

A couple people from our group took turns at the microphone and generally made jackasses of themselves before somebody had the brilliant idea that I should go up and do a song. I resisted, but of course that only fueled their desire to see me up there.

When it became apparent to me that they weren’t going to drop the idea, I finally got up from the table and walked toward the microphone, with my group wildly cheering me on. I kept on walking, past the microphone and out the front door, grabbed a taxi, and went home. They may as well have asked me to shove a sharp pencil through my left eyeball, which incidentally, I would have gladly done rather than sing karaoke. I never spoke to any of those people again.
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I've been trying to figure out why I loathe basketball with a passion that passes all human understanding. I'm now pretty sure it has something to do with the squeaking of the players' shoes against the polished wood floor of the court, the crowd cheering and yelling, the referee's whistle, and the loud buzzer that sounds periodically throughout the game.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Also, to be sure we include those who are further on the spectrum, the 1 in a 100 people in the world who are on the autistic spectrum also includes a lot who are Autistic rather than having the Asperger's Syndrome sort of autism. They have a lot more difficulty coping, and some are very profoundly disabled.

Often they and their families would love to be included at church, and be supported through pastoral care.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I can lie. I was expert at it at school. Since I had no strategies for study, and frequently failed to do work, I needed to be.

One quirk I have, which I don't know if AS related, is that I cannot stand the sound of people eating. I sometimes have to make excuses and leave the room if I finish before others (which I usually do), because it just draws my attention and it's like fingernails on a blackboard, only worse. I wonder whether that's like the sensitivity many Aspies report, like Birdseye above. I also tend to have very strong food preferences - stuff I don't like I really loathe; I HATE being labelled "picky" because there are some things I cannot force myself to eat. Bizarrely, they're often things other people think of as delicacies. The posher the buffet, the more likely I am to be hungry afterwards.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:

I was wondering, though (in an idle questioning and conceptual sort of way) if any of you could wave some sort of magic wand, would you change yourself to being 'neurotypical' or not? Would there be anything to gain from doing so, or would you lose more than you gained?

---

Ah, now that's a "million dollar question", to use an expression I understand. From observation of message boards for those on the spectrum over the years, the answer varies. Some definitely do want a cure. Others are quite happy as they are and wish they had the same disability rights as the other disabilities rather than being seen as some sort of mental illness that needs a 'cure', and many more are somewhere in between.

I'd like to wave a wand and have all the NTs understand us better and learn to communicate in Aspie. That would be my ideal.
Some definitely would like
 

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Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 
I don't know where to start?

How about being told that if you don't make eye contact you are lying, so I taught myself to MAKE eye contact. Except people I don't like, when I studiously avoid eye contact, or deliberately keep conversations as short as possible.

How about obsessing about all possible outcomes in a situation, not only what the outcomes might be but fantasising in exact detail how I would respond to every question that could possibly ever arise.

How about boring someone to tears with a conversation about something I'm interested in.

How about withdrawing into myself to work out an answer to a problem, then coming up with the answer ages after everyone else had given up. Or indeed any problem solving, I have to keep going until I've got the answer. I was even caught on video doing this once, withdrawing from a group discussion until the light came on (you could almost see it happening) and I'd worked out the answer!

Often I concentrate on resolving the minutest detail, to the extent I leave something much bigger that needs doing because I'm not sure how to start it.

I overreact to certain types of criticism, to the point where I become so overanxious I burst into tears or start an argument. Most commonly when I feel I am being unfairly criticised or because I don't understand the criticism. I have certain trigger phrases too "don't take it personally" or "you are being oversensitive".

I love Ecclesiantics and anything to do with liturgy - I can quote huge chunks of the Mass verbatim from my childhood - and will correct anyone who gets it slightly wrong. I'm an excellent proofreader for service sheets for this reason. There's an interesting thread (well I thought it was interesting) I started about whether or not the chalice bearer should hand over the chalice or not at communion, that I would not stop worrying over (until I twigged I was doing it).

I find it much easier to get on with men rather than women as (sorry men) men are much easier to read and women give many more non-verbal clues (apparently, I've not noticed!).

I am extremely analytical and pedantic.

When I was 14 I suffered terrible anxiety attacks, to the extent they put me on tranquillisers (Ativan). Only I worried so much about taking tranquillisers they had the opposite effect, and I was taken off them.

I self-diagnosed myself in pregnancy with Obstetric Cholestasis (this really upset my GP). I knew so much about the condition that the specialist who looked after me in pregnancy would refer the junior house doctors to me so that I could explain it to them. I even had research papers on the subject, and I read up on it until I could understand them. I've used this knowledge many times to help other women with the condition.

My son was diagnosed in September with Asperger's, and as the Dr explained the diagnosis and ticking boxes, I realised I was ticking more boxes than he was. I asked the doc about it at the time and she told me "yes, its familial". Since then I've tried to read up on the subject, but I become overanxious every time I recognise another trait in me and stop reading.

Note that I'm not one for reading medical dictionaries and finding diseases I've "got". I would not be declaring I have AS unless I was totally convinced by what's happened in my life and the way I've learned to cope throughout my life. The last time I convinced myself I had something was when I had Obstetric Cholestasis and proved my GP wrong when he told me it was very unlikely.

I'm told I'm very difficult to read, but I always thought I was completely transparent and that it was obvious when I am joking and when I am serious. I can make "inappropriate" comments but am bewildered sometimes when it is pointed out to me that it is inappropriate.

I have to do the best I can at things. After criticism on a couple of essays I did, I spent weeks perfecting the last one, writing in the style my tutor expected, so that he couldn't find anything to criticise (although he still did) - I got top marks for this essay but nearly killed myself in the process.

When I am anxious I spend time on the internet - far too MUCH time on the internet.

I used to be a computer programmer - a common pursuit for Aspies, although it doesn't necessarily follow that all computer programmers are Aspies, or vice versa.

I can give a couple of instances about literalness, but to be honest, I still find them embarrassing.

Convinced yet?
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Would that be the people not making appropriate eye contact with folks at a social gathering

---

quote:

---

leaving early

---

quote:

---

asleep in the corner[qb]

---

quote:

---

[qb]doing the washing up in the kitchen because a task has a purpose?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Love the You you hide:
I don't know where to start?

How about being told that if you don't make eye contact you are lying, so I taught myself to MAKE eye contact. Except people I don't like, when I studiously avoid eye contact, or deliberately keep conversations as short as possible.

How about obsessing about all possible outcomes in a situation, not only what the outcomes might be but fantasising in exact detail how I would respond to every question that could possibly ever arise.

How about boring someone to tears with a conversation about something I'm interested in.

How about withdrawing into myself to work out an answer to a problem, then coming up with the answer ages after everyone else had given up. Or indeed any problem solving, I have to keep going until I've got the answer. I was even caught on video doing this once, withdrawing from a group discussion until the light came on (you could almost see it happening) and I'd worked out the answer!

Often I concentrate on resolving the minutest detail, to the extent I leave something much bigger that needs doing because I'm not sure how to start it.

I overreact to certain types of criticism, to the point where I become so overanxious I burst into tears or start an argument. Most commonly when I feel I am being unfairly criticised or because I don't understand the criticism. I have certain trigger phrases too "don't take it personally" or "you are being oversensitive".

I love Ecclesiantics and anything to do with liturgy - I can quote huge chunks of the Mass verbatim from my childhood - and will correct anyone who gets it slightly wrong. I'm an excellent proofreader for service sheets for this reason. There's an interesting thread (well I thought it was interesting) I started about whether or not the chalice bearer should hand over the chalice or not at communion, that I would not stop worrying over (until I twigged I was doing it).

I find it much easier to get on with men rather than women as (sorry men) men are much easier to read and women give many more non-verbal clues (apparently, I've not noticed!).

I am extremely analytical and pedantic.

When I was 14 I suffered terrible anxiety attacks, to the extent they put me on tranquillisers (Ativan). Only I worried so much about taking tranquillisers they had the opposite effect, and I was taken off them.

I self-diagnosed myself in pregnancy with Obstetric Cholestasis (this really upset my GP). I knew so much about the condition that the specialist who looked after me in pregnancy would refer the junior house doctors to me so that I could explain it to them. I even had research papers on the subject, and I read up on it until I could understand them. I've used this knowledge many times to help other women with the condition.

My son was diagnosed in September with Asperger's, and as the Dr explained the diagnosis and ticking boxes, I realised I was ticking more boxes than he was. I asked the doc about it at the time and she told me "yes, its familial". Since then I've tried to read up on the subject, but I become overanxious every time I recognise another trait in me and stop reading.

Note that I'm not one for reading medical dictionaries and finding diseases I've "got". I would not be declaring I have AS unless I was totally convinced by what's happened in my life and the way I've learned to cope throughout my life. The last time I convinced myself I had something was when I had Obstetric Cholestasis and proved my GP wrong when he told me it was very unlikely.

I'm told I'm very difficult to read, but I always thought I was completely transparent and that it was obvious when I am joking and when I am serious. I can make "inappropriate" comments but am bewildered sometimes when it is pointed out to me that it is inappropriate.

I have to do the best I can at things. After criticism on a couple of essays I did, I spent weeks perfecting the last one, writing in the style my tutor expected, so that he couldn't find anything to criticise (although he still did) - I got top marks for this essay but nearly killed myself in the process.

When I am anxious I spend time on the internet - far too MUCH time on the internet.

I used to be a computer programmer - a common pursuit for Aspies, although it doesn't necessarily follow that all computer programmers are Aspies, or vice versa.

I can give a couple of instances about literalness, but to be honest, I still find them embarrassing.

Convinced yet?

---

Good grief, that's me!
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Simon Baron Cohen (yes, he is Ali G's relative, I think they are cousins, not brothers, but I could be wrong) is a researcher into ASD and he has postulated recently that autism is similar in traits to extreme maleness and has linked this to high in utero testerone levels. Just as an aside, low in utero testerone levels are have been linked to homosexuality.
 

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Posted by Liturgy Queen (# 11596) on :
 
So where does that leave those of us who are both?
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
LQ I had a feeling that someone was going to ask that ...

I am no expert, but have read a lot of this information out of interest. As far as I understand it, the in utero low testosterone effect only accounted for a proportion of homosexuality according the research I read. One of the strongest correlations for homosexuality is the number of older brothers, and the postulation was that the mother gets good at dealing with excess testosterone, so younger brothers are more likely to encounter this effect and to be homosexual, but this effect was only proposed to account for 1 in 7 homosexuals.

Frantically trying to get this back on thread, I would guess that the high in utero testosterone effect equally is the mechanism for a proportion of those with ASD.
 

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Posted by Jenn R (# 5239) on :
 
I'm not sure if I fit here or not (story of my life really!).

I have learnt how to do all the social stuff, and I think I'm not too bad at it, although looking back over conversations afterwards is very embarrassing. I don't do small talk, I do deep and meaningful. Even if you have never met me before.

I talk to kids a lot, teenagers in particular, but am scared of talking to adults. I always get that wrong.

I can't cope with background noise, and jump hugely at clattering noises and the like.

I don't mind interruptions, but I hate having to change plans when I haven't thought it through, so I can't cope when people are late.

I get obsessive very easily.

Since I became ill most of these tendencies have got a lot worse, as when I am tired the learnt stuff deserts me. I don't have aspergers, but I don't fit in with normal people either. I'm odd.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The school I used to work in had a very good reputation for working with Asperger's kids, so I've worked with a few. The lunchtime and break supervised area has a crowd of them, both identified and unrecognised, playing chess and Yu-Gi-Oh games together - not a lot of conversation, but contented.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
So where does that leave those of us who are both?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Simon Baron Cohen (yes, he is Ali G's relative, I think they are cousins, not brothers, but I could be wrong) is a researcher into ASD and he has postulated recently that autism is similar in traits to extreme maleness and has linked this to high in utero testerone levels. Just as an aside, low in utero testerone levels are have been linked to homosexuality.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenn R:
I'm not sure if I fit here or not (story of my life really!).

I have learnt how to do all the social stuff, and I think I'm not too bad at it, although looking back over conversations afterwards is very embarrassing. I don't do small talk, I do deep and meaningful. Even if you have never met me before.

I talk to kids a lot, teenagers in particular, but am scared of talking to adults. I always get that wrong.

I can't cope with background noise, and jump hugely at clattering noises and the like.

I don't mind interruptions, but I hate having to change plans when I haven't thought it through, so I can't cope when people are late.

I get obsessive very easily.

Since I became ill most of these tendencies have got a lot worse, as when I am tired the learnt stuff deserts me. I don't have aspergers, but I don't fit in with normal people either. I'm odd.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenn R:
I'm not sure if I fit here or not (story of my life really!).

I have learnt how to do all the social stuff, and I think I'm not too bad at it, although looking back over conversations afterwards is very embarrassing. I don't do small talk, I do deep and meaningful. Even if you have never met me before.

I talk to kids a lot, teenagers in particular, but am scared of talking to adults. I always get that wrong.

I can't cope with background noise, and jump hugely at clattering noises and the like.

I don't mind interruptions, but I hate having to change plans when I haven't thought it through, so I can't cope when people are late.

I get obsessive very easily.

Since I became ill most of these tendencies have got a lot worse, as when I am tired the learnt stuff deserts me. I don't have aspergers, but I don't fit in with normal people either. I'm odd.

---

Tony Attwood says there's such a thing as "shadow syndromes" where people are coping in society but they still prefer an 'aspie' communication style, and a lot of the same strategies for coping work for them. That's another possibility for people who are thinking "well, it might fit, but it might not". I'm not sure we're supposed to put links to quizzes in this bit but if you do the aspie quiz ('google' it), they reckon that below 28 is probably NT, and above 32 is probably Aspie and the bits in between are anyone's guess.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
It also intriguingly has meant that often I make friends with people with a hearing loss.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
dj_ordinaire: Since we're talking about sounds and metro systems, I have to point out that I absolutely love the sound of the AC traction motors of the new Jubilee Line trains. Bliss!

---

Ahem... the rattle of a Central Line train for me every time!

The distinctive noise accrues from the fact that the rails are positioned higher in the tunnel than any other deep-level line &c &c....
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
I'm not Miss Amanda, but I've been to a few Shipmeets and I can at least offer my own thoughts. Miss Amanda may have a different take.

The nice thing about Shipmeets is that we already have something in common to talk about, and given that most meets involve local people who (in my case, at least) are also members of the same denomination, we usually end up "talking shop" about church matters such as tat, liturgy, the new rector at St. Whoever, etc. Since we have that common ground, we can usually find a lot to talk about without having to resort to pointless small talk.

And if that fails, we can always gossip about whatever latest outrage is happening back on the Ship.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Oh, and Professor Baron Cohen is the uncle of the comedian.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Out of interest I did the test, and came out high on the NT side (139/200). No surprises there, because I have good comprehension and communication skills. But I am also a creative type, who enjoys solitude to explore that creativity, and cope best in a group situation when focused on a task. So I also relate to being a bit of a loner.

What fascinates me is how aspies cope with shipmeets? Miss Amanda - after reading your posts, I am in admiration of your commitment to continually putting yourself out in order to meet other shippies. At times this must seem terrifying. How do you cope?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
May other socially inepts join you?

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Oh yes, the more the merrier (hmm, or would merriment at such a gathering mean that we weren't socially misfitting enough...)
 

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Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by kentishmaid:
Oh, and if it's any consolation, I wouldn't be the slightest bit offended if any of you started reading a book at one of my parties. I'd be pleased that you share my reading taste sufficiently to approve of one of my books.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kentishmaid:
Oh, and if it's any consolation, I wouldn't be the slightest bit offended if any of you started reading a book at one of my parties. I'd be pleased that you share my reading taste sufficiently to approve of one of my books.

---

Likewise at our house. In fact, the big bookcase in the living room has a display shelf on it, and we'll often have a book our two out on the coffee table, asking to be looked at. If we knew a map-lover was coming over, we'd make sure a book or two on maps was out where it could be seen.

We also have a toy that's a clear plastic cylinder full of beads and small objects -- you're supposed to turn it this way and that and find all the small objects in among the beads. At our New Year's Day party, we had that out. I'm not sure if anyone played with it or not. But our friends and family include Aspies and others who are socially ill at ease or easily exhausted by too much interaction, so we always try to have things around to look at, fiddle with, talk about, or do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Often adults with Asperger's Syndrome are never diagnosed/diagnosed very late on, which means they've struggled through a huge amount in life with no or little support or understanding and may be as exhausted as I am sometimes.

---

I think I have a friend who I suspect may be somewhere on the spectrum, and indeed, she has struggled. Add to that the normal bumps of growing up and some exceptional bumps (her parents divorced, she is divorced, she hasn't been able to settle on a career, she has been used and manipulated by many people, particularly older men), and she really has suffered. She has tried moving to another country because she was unhappy, and of course, returned, FOUR TIMES. Because I'm close to her, people often ask me "what's wrong with H?" My standard response is "she's dealing with a lot of stuff right now" which is, well, sort of accurate.

I spend time with her and listen to her and keep her in my thoughts, but I'm just her friend. I do believe that with proper help she could probably be happier than she is. A while back, she joined a peer support group for depression - you can imagine how well that went, and I'm afraid it may have made her fearful to try anything else.

So... thoughts? What sort of resources and support groups are available for adults in Canada? OliviaG
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
OliviaG: Your friend's story sounds much like my own, although that's not necessarily an indication she's an Aspie. I wouldn't rule it out, though.

Anybody who's been on the Ship long enough will know how often I've moved around the country, thinking the right location will solve all my ills: Chicago, Philly, NYC, Oregon, Chicago again, NYC again... And that's only since I registered here.

(Fortunately, while being back in NYC hasn't solved all that ails me, it actually feels like home for a change.)

I was also diagnosed with clinical depression somewhere along the way, and for a long time I assumed that was the source of all my problems. Unfortunately, no amount of medication or treatment seemed to work for me. While I don't question my original diagnosis, I now feel that the depression is probably rooted in the Asperger's, not the other way around.

For online support, I've already found WrongPlanet.net to be very helpful in the short time since I've discovered that site. They also have very active discussion boards.
 

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Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I just took the quiz on the Circus thread and scored 21/104. Is there room for one more here?
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
People with ASD are more susceptible to mental health problems. I knew this from training courses but thought I ought to back up my sweeping statements. This guide from MIND is giving lots of other helpful advice, and there is more information from the DWP here.
 

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Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
OliviaG: Your friend's story sounds much like my own, although that's not necessarily an indication she's an Aspie. I wouldn't rule it out, though.

---

• We're very literal ("Take a seat" "Where to?")
• We like to know what the rules are.
  We panic (at least in the inside) when we don't know what the rules are.
• We haven't much of a clue about body language - our brains just don't 'see' it unless we practice like mad.
• We find social situations baffling.
• We have very specialised interests and normally have a normal or high IQ.
• We're sometimes very good at things - art, music, facts, figures, encyclopaedic knowledge of specialist topics.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
At the very least, I'd send her the link to the WrongPlanet.net site and/or the Aspie quiz mentioned back in the original Heaven thread. Again, no substitute for a professional evaluation, but it might be a good starting point.

---

Thank you, LiG. So how would I broach the topic? How do I suggest that investigating this possibility might be helpful, without making it sound like I'm labeling her, or that I think there's something wrong with her? OliviaG
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
That's a good question... I'm trying to think how I might have reacted if one of my friends had broached the topic with me. In retrospect, I probably would have been grateful, but I could see myself getting defensive about it as well.

I'll have to give that question some more thought. In the meantime, maybe somebody else can chime in.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Tell her your score and show her the quiz as fun?
 

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Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 
When Middle Son was diagnosed with AS, I gave lots of information to the grandparents. And my father, reading it, commented on how it all seemed to fit him as well.

And a friend of mine who knew Middle Son's dx sent me a link to an article a while back, with a note that I might find it interesting -- he certainly did, because the article seemed to be describing him. (Well, yes, I thought. In a game of Spot the Aspie, he's so obvious that you don't get any points for identifying him!)

In other words, Olivia, if you can get your friend to look at a link, take a quiz, read an article, because it's about someone else (your friends here on the Ship, someone else you know), your friend might put 2 and 2 together.

That's the approach I think I'd take, anyway.

ETA: Crossposted with Gwai, who managed to say roughly the same thing in far fewer words.

[ 11. January 2008, 22:38: Message edited by: Josephine ]
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
May a face-blind person join you?

I took that quiz mentioned a few months ago and was horrified to score 9 when it came to recognizing faces, but 52 on recognizing eyeglasses. And no, I don't have an eyeglass fetish.

As for the Aspy thing, I took both of the Circus quizzes and came out as Extreme Systematizer AND Extreme Empathizer.

My brother's an Aspy.
 

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Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. The quiz definitely has potential as a conversation starter.

I stumbled over the question, "When you run out of something, you add it to your shopping list." When it comes to critical items, I buy two, and when I've used up the first one, I add the item to the shopping list. I buy two more while I'm still finishing the last one and thus never run out. Doesn't everyone do that? (I scored right on the dividing line between S and extreme S.) OliviaG
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
The quiz could be a good conversation starter, as Gwai and Josephine have mentioned.... Assuming your friend picks up on the hint. With me, that might not always be a sure thing.

I guess the key might be whether your friend trusts you enough to confide her problems in you and ask for advice. If so, I wonder if the direct approach might be more appropriate. Something like, "I've noticed some similarities between your issues and the issues of some online friends I have. A few of these friends have discovered they have Asperger's and we've started talking about it recently, and it got me wondering if that's a possibility you've ever looked into?"

If she's more of a casual friend who doesn't confide in you, it's a bit more risky. I tend to maintain a pretty strong Invisible Anti-Intimacy Force Field™ around me at all times, and it can only be deactivated by a select few who have earned the proper security clearance. If somebody tries to breach it without authorization, my internal defenses instantly go into red alert, and my IAIFF™ automatically activates an additional layer of armor plating.
 

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Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I tend to maintain a pretty strong Invisible Anti-Intimacy Force Field™ around me at all times, and it can only be deactivated by a select few who have earned the proper security clearance. If somebody tries to breach it without authorization, my internal defenses instantly go into red alert, and my IAIFF™ automatically activates an additional layer of armor plating.

---

You've got one as well have you? Actually, when I moved to where I'm now living, I made a conscious decision to drop the barriers, seeing it as a fresh start. This worked for a while, especially while I was feeling happy, as the traits I have tend to diminish the happier I am. More recently though I've had to put it back in place, because I found I was getting hurt and bewildered too often for comfort.
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
Been there, done that. I used to be much less picky about who I gave security clearance to, but after a few people with less-than-noble intentions got past the IAIFF™ and did lots of damage, I had to tighten up my security protocols a bit.

[ 12. January 2008, 03:52: Message edited by: Living in Gin ]
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
LIG, yes - I've had a few people manage to cause damage by getting past the Anti-Intimacy-Force-Field, as you describe it. I think a lot of the problem is that I can't tell the Good Guys from the Bad Guys that easily, and if people say "I want to be your friend",or "I want you to do this task" I'm not good at thinking "do they mean that or is it a lie to get me to do something for their advantage?"

Olivia, this should be a link to the Canadian autism information site, and their advisers may have some ideas to add to those already given here by the other members? On their home page, there's a "ten common questions" bit that shows a link to support groups, for example. It will be tricky introducing the subject, but I have done this with someone and it went really well so there's hope that yours might.

Campbellite, Lambchopped, of course you can join in here
Lambchopped, as someone who struggles to process faces fast, I can relate to that. It makes social events a challenge even without the other things. ("Who can this be that's shopping in the ASDA superstore? Short lady, frizzy hair, big earrings - might be the church warden I've known for many weeks...")
I'm also really bad with identifying names 'out of context'. I was emailing someone for weeks without realising they're the same person with the same name as someone I already knew from another email group. Embarassing!

Karl said there would be quite a few people with an interest in discussing all of this, and it looks like LivingInGin was very right to put this thread here - thanks LIG

Can I ask a question - who else here struggles to feel comfortable in some/all church services? I find that unless I know exactly where things are and what will happen, I spend my time worrying about what I'm supposed to do rather than listening to the meaning behind it all or being able to concentrate on prayer. What sort of church services or gatherings do you find are easiest to relax in? Any?

[Code repair, because I like it tidy. ]

[ 12. January 2008, 13:30: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
Oh, and I forgot to add...who else has problems with "social touching" - people shaking hands with you, the kiss-on-the-cheek when you meet people, the sociable hug from strangers or nearly-strangers, the hand on the arm when people are talking to you? I do.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I am very concerned that these quizzes get everyone thinking they've 'got it' rather like when you read one of those medical encyclopedias and end up convinced that you display some of the symptoms for almost every disease known to man.

However, I think more people than the church realises have difficulties with eg. holding hands in church, being hugged by all and sundry, and unpredictable informal services. I know I'm not the only one as I keep hearing others say (and write) the same thing. Churches would do well to heed this if they don't wish to turn people away. Maybe 'Touchy Feely' services should be clearly advertised as such!
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
I am very concerned that these quizzes get everyone thinking they've 'got it' rather like when you read one of those medical encyclopedias and end up convinced that you display some of the symptoms for almost every disease known to man.

---

Hi Chorister, I do hear your concerns, yet I also hope people do realise that it's just a quiz, not a proper assessment/diagnosis. I also think it's quite difficult to get into the bit that is full of results for people on the Spectrum unless your brain really does at least think mostly the same way as we do.

Looking at the main graphs for results, the vast majority of people wouldn't end up thinking they were in the bit with the green squares (the results for the Spectrum control group). Those who are, just might be, though it's only one possibility. That's all we can say.

Also, I do hear what you're saying about people reading books and medicalising ordinary symptoms, but it's not really the same as thinking you have a medical disease. Anyone taking the test and scoring well outside of the middle range would just know they had a different way of thinking, and from what I'm reading I think a few people are relieved that there may just be a reason that some of them have thought along different lines to the rest of the population and found different things easy/difficult.

There are people on the Spectrum who believe that some of them are, if anything, an "upgrade" on normal humans - ultra-fast processing speed, amazing recall, ablity to think logically rather than emotionally in particular situations etc. (Think of Star Trek and the continuing debate between the Captain and Mr Spock about which had the better world-view). I'm not saying that anyone is better than anyone else, personally - but neither do I see this particular quiz as being something that leads to anything negative? Or rather, if it does, it's because most of society wants everyone to be touchy-feely and sociable and behave a 'certain way'.

If nothing else, it's a good discussion point?

And yes, I do agree that church services need to be advertised as "touchy-feely"
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
neither do I see this particular quiz as being something that leads to anything negative? Or rather, if it does, it's because most of society wants everyone to be touchy-feely and sociable and behave a 'certain way'.

---

I see this as an increasing problem now that, in Britain, at least, we are supposed to have 'progressed' from being stiff-upper-lip-hide-yer-feelings British to being let-it-all-hang-out-super-friendly Mediterraneans.
I can't believe I'm the only person who gets nostalgic for the old black-and-white Great Britain of 40 years ago. (But with added internet, of course. ) It suited some of us better.
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
neither do I see this particular quiz as being something that leads to anything negative? Or rather, if it does, it's because most of society wants everyone to be touchy-feely and sociable and behave a 'certain way'.

---

I see this as an increasing problem now that, in Britain, at least, we are supposed to have 'progressed' from being stiff-upper-lip-hide-yer-feelings British to being let-it-all-hang-out-super-friendly Mediterraneans.
I can't believe I'm the only person who gets nostalgic for the old black-and-white Great Britain of 40 years ago. (But with added internet, of course. ) It suited some of us better.

---

Yes, totally agree with you. In "the old days" in Britain, there was a set way to do everything, and I think that made it much easier for those with a very logical mind to fit in. In the top levels of society, there is still that expectation, and I find I get on fine with people who were brought up to have very set rules about behaviour and customs (once I know what they are). The gentry complaining about someone who's served the Port from the wrong side at the dinner table or used the wrong fork actually makes perfect sense to me
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Oh, and I forgot to add...who else has problems with "social touching" - people shaking hands with you, the kiss-on-the-cheek when you meet people, the sociable hug from strangers or nearly-strangers, the hand on the arm when people are talking to you? I do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The most useful book for me was Josephine's recommendation of Too Loud, too bright, too fast, too tight by Sharon Heller. It describes being something called "sensory defensive". Basically it is very easy to get into a situation where you are unable to process the sensory information, your brain is receiving in a given situation.

Jengie

---

Does anyone else on the Ship wear glasses that go like this when you walk outside. I wear them, and so does my husband, because we find ordinary sunlight is too bright. They are very helpful (and stop me constantly squinting) and you can forget you are wearing them most of the time.
The only danger is that you sometimes get helped across the road by well-meaning 'empathisers'.
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:

The only danger is that you sometimes get helped across the road by well-meaning 'empathisers'.

---

quote:

---

I hate the kiss on the cheek from anyone except my husband and children. Even my own mother makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't like the hand on the arm either. Hugs, on the other hand I like, even from relative strangers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
What fascinates me is how aspies cope with shipmeets? Miss Amanda - after reading your posts, I am in admiration of your commitment to continually putting yourself out in order to meet other shippies. At times this must seem terrifying. How do you cope?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Intriguing...I cope better with hugs than social kisses, though I'd still rather they didn't. Temple Grandin (world-famous lady with autism rather than Asperger Syndrome) did a lot of work on whether those on the spectrum often benefit from being hugged/the sensation of overall pressure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Love the You you hide:

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Intriguing...I cope better with hugs than social kisses, though I'd still rather they didn't. Temple Grandin (world-famous lady with autism rather than Asperger Syndrome) did a lot of work on whether those on the spectrum often benefit from being hugged/the sensation of overall pressure.

---

I just gave a lady from church a hug. I'd worried that I'd offended her by saying something inappropriate, so I spoke to her about it and apologised. I hadn't offended her, so I was so happy I gave her a hug! (Now wondering whether that was inappropriate...)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by OliviaG:
Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. The quiz definitely has potential as a conversation starter.

I stumbled over the question, "When you run out of something, you add it to your shopping list." When it comes to critical items, I buy two, and when I've used up the first one, I add the item to the shopping list. I buy two more while I'm still finishing the last one and thus never run out. Doesn't everyone do that? (I scored right on the dividing line between S and extreme S.) OliviaG

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Can I ask a question - who else here struggles to feel comfortable in some/all church services? I find that unless I know exactly where things are and what will happen, I spend my time worrying about what I'm supposed to do rather than listening to the meaning behind it all or being able to concentrate on prayer. What sort of church services or gatherings do you find are easiest to relax in? Any?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Can I ask a question - who else here struggles to feel comfortable in some/all church services? I find that unless I know exactly where things are and what will happen, I spend my time worrying about what I'm supposed to do rather than listening to the meaning behind it all or being able to concentrate on prayer. What sort of church services or gatherings do you find are easiest to relax in? Any?

---

Interesting question, and now that I think about it, I suspect that my Aspie traits might have a lot to do with that I find appealing about my own church. I find a great deal of comfort in the stiff-upper-lip, high-church Anglican tradition. The liturgy is clearly mapped out with no surprises, no single portion of the liturgy takes too long (I grew up listening to 45-minute Presbyterian sermons ) and I love the steady rhythm of the liturgical calendar as well as the sense of formality and decorum one typically finds in Anglican worship. This is just speculation, but if somebody took me to a Quaker meeting or Pentecostal service, I'd probably run screaming for the door. (No offense to any Quakers or Pentecostals, mind you.)

I do get a little uncomfortable at the Peace, but I can usually tolerate it if I'm surrounded by people I know. I serve as an acolyte most Sundays, so that's usually the case. If I'm forced to make eye contact and shake hands with a bunch of strangers sitting around me, though, it becomes much more difficult... Especially if it's one of those services where the Peace turns into an extended meet-and-greet session.

Physical touch is a weird issue for me... If I'm being touch by somebody I have feelings of affection for, I generally can't get enough of it, but I'm very clumsy and awkward when it comes to initiating physical contact. For people I don't have feelings of affection for (and this includes the vast majority of people out there), I prefer not to be touched at all. I can deal with a handshake, but anything else will probably rub me the wrong way.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Does anyone else on the Ship wear glasses that go like this when you walk outside. I wear them, and so does my husband, because we find ordinary sunlight is too bright. They are very helpful (and stop me constantly squinting) and you can forget you are wearing them most of the time.
The only danger is that you sometimes get helped across the road by well-meaning 'empathisers'.

---

I pretty much wear sunglasses whenever I'm outside during the daytime, unless it's very cloudy. New York City on a sunny day is weird because it seems like you're either walking in the shadows of the buildings or you're getting blinded by the sunlight, so I find myself constantly donning and removing my sunglasses when walking around in Manhattan. I've recently noticed that I'll often cross to the other side of the street if that sidewalk happens to be in the shadow!

I also find myself incapable of driving during the daytime without wearing sunglasses, and although I enjoy driving at night, I get very bothered by other cars' headlights shining in my eyes.

Timely topic, as one of my chores today is to go buy a new pair of sunglasses, as I recently broke my existing pair.
 

---

Posted by Penny Lane (# 3086) on :
 
I've followed this thread with interest. Parts describe me, but I imagine those may be mostly the areas where introverts and Aspies intersect. Many of you have referred to quizes, and I'd like to see where I fall on the scale. Can anyone provide links? (Someone mentioned a Circus quiz, and when I looked there, none of the threads looked obvious.) I'd also like to give the info to a friend who matches nearly every symptom/sign that has been mentioned.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Penny

The thread you want is "Are you technically minded or a people person?" in the Circus.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
The quiz in the circus is here, Penny. It is not specifically labelled as 'Aspergers' on the thread, but has been a useful starting point for people. There are also links to other quizzes dotted about the Heaven thread (especially towards the end) on 'entertaining the socially inept' if you are interested in following it up.

Comments by Penny and Pants highlight my concern - a large number of people are going to have some of the traits of Asperger's as it is part of a continuum from 'normal' (if there is such a thing as normal) to full-blown Autism. However, some people are going to have lots of the traits and therefore be more easily recognised as having Asperger's. I don't believe, for example, that everyone who enjoys collecting stamps, or model buses, or spoons, or railway timetables necessarily has Asperger's syndrome. But if that is combined with several other factors then it is more likely.

For all your amusement: today, quite by chance when looking for something else, I came across a list I had made several years ago. It was a list of my eldest son's shoe sizes, from his first shoes upwards. Next to the shoe size was the width, followed by information about the picture on the shoe (Thomas the Tank engine, etc.)
Underneath the list of shoes was a list of sandals, a list of slippers, a list of trainers and a list of wellington boots, and a list of plimsolls (all with similar information about shoe sizes, colours and logos, etc.)
I burst out laughing about what a daft old bat I must have been - and probably still am!
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
For all your amusement: today, quite by chance when looking for something else, I came across a list I had made several years ago. It was a list of my eldest son's shoe sizes, from his first shoes upwards. Next to the shoe size was the width, followed by information about the picture on the shoe (Thomas the Tank engine, etc.)
Underneath the list of shoes was a list of sandals, a list of slippers, a list of trainers and a list of wellington boots, and a list of plimsolls (all with similar information about shoe sizes, colours and logos, etc.)
I burst out laughing about what a daft old bat I must have been - and probably still am!

---

1. Words now used in general conversation often have special and much more restricted meaning in psychology/psychiatry
2. It's very hard for an individual to get a population baseline against which to judge his or her own behaviour
3. Most importantly, most psychological dysfunction can be seen as an extreme form of normal-range behaviour

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
When I took that EQ/SQ quiz on the other thread, I landed just over the edge into the red area on the grid-version of the results, so I guess I have some Aspie tendencies. I've always just called it Male/Engineer personality.

---

Seriously, when I read the descriptions of mild Aspergers', my immediate reaction is "Yeah, that's your classic engineer". I grew up with engineers, I am one, I'm married to one, so it simply seems normal to me.
 

---

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 
There was a study I read some time back, looking at the extended families of people with autism. As you would expect, in the families of people with autism, the proportion of people who have autistic traits but don't meet the clinical standards for diagnosis is substantially higher than in the general population. As you might not expect (but I'm sure wouldn't surprise jlg), the extended families had about four times as many engineers and computer programmers than you'd predict based on the general population.

I agree that there is a fuzzy border between someone with AS and someone who's just a typical engineer. That's true of nearly all psychological disorders -- the borderline areas are fuzzy. If you know someone who has to check the locks five times (not six, not four) before they leave the house, do they have OCD?

And it's also true that many people can find a niche where their atypical traits don't cause them any problems, and in fact may even be a strength. And if you're an adult, and you've found such a niche, and you're generally happy with your life, it probably doesn't matter if you ever get a diagnosis or not.

It's also true that modern classroom management styles are particularly hard for Aspie kids, as well as many modern social conventions. I think it's true that many Aspies (particularly at the milder end) would be happier and have fewer difficulties if they lived in a culture where rules for social interaction were spelled out clearly, where classroom expectations were consistent and predictable, and so on.

All that said, there are major benefits to getting a diagnosis. First, it gives a neutral explanation for traits that you or others may have interpreted as character flaws. If you don't look people in the eye, it's not because you're a liar or because you're rude. It's because you have AS. That knowledge can be a tremendous relief for many people. And, once they know it's something typical of AS, they can devise strategies for dealing with it.

Which brings me to my second point. A diagnosis allows you to predict what sorts of activities or situations are likely to be difficult, and why they're likely to be difficult, and how they can be adjusted to increase the likelihood of success. That kind of self-knowledge (or knowledge of another person) can be built up over time. But getting a diagnosis makes it faster and easier to work it out.

For those benefits, an informal self-diagnosis can be every bit as useful as a formal clinical diagnosis. There is one case where a formal clinical diagnosis is necessary: when a child is having trouble at school, a diagnosis provides important legal protections. The same can be true for an adult at work.
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I can't do hugs, kisses etc, I'm not at all touchy-feely except with the kids. Unfortunately, my otherwise wonderful chari church is very huggy.....as are the inlaws.
 

---

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Melon . Thanks for articulating a lot of things I was thinking but couldn't have put nearly so well.
 

---

Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:
All that said, there are major benefits to getting a diagnosis. First, it gives a neutral explanation for traits that you or others may have interpreted as character flaws. If you don't look people in the eye, it's not because you're a liar or because you're rude. It's because you have AS. That knowledge can be a tremendous relief for many people. And, once they know it's something typical of AS, they can devise strategies for dealing with it.

---

quote:

---

A diagnosis allows you to predict what sorts of activities or situations are likely to be difficult, and why they're likely to be difficult, and how they can be adjusted to increase the likelihood of success. That kind of self-knowledge (or knowledge of another person) can be built up over time. But getting a diagnosis makes it faster and easier to work it out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
The quiz in the circus is here, Penny. It is not specifically labelled as 'Aspergers' on the thread, but has been a useful starting point for people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pânts:
I looked at the graph, and there wasn't any dots near where I end up!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pânts:
I looked at the graph, and there wasn't any dots near where I end up!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
New York City on a sunny day is weird because it seems like you're either walking in the shadows of the buildings or you're getting blinded by the sunlight, so I find myself constantly donning and removing my sunglasses when walking around in Manhattan. I've recently noticed that I'll often cross to the other side of the street if that sidewalk happens to be in the shadow!

I also find myself incapable of driving during the daytime without wearing sunglasses, and although I enjoy driving at night, I get very bothered by other cars' headlights shining in my eyes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by welsh dragon:
A proper diagnosis of Asperger's can take several professionals, together, the best part of a day; please remember that these tests are just a quickie guide.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WatersOfBabylon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
I personally also find it really difficult to recognise people if they're in a crowd or out of context ("hmm, tall chap, blonde hair...who can it be...ah yes, my son!") though not everyone has that problem.

---

Face blindness?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amorya:
I missed a lecture the other day by Brad Duchaine about links between prosopagnosia and autism. I'm a bit annoyed I missed it, because it sounds really interesting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amorya:
I missed a lecture the other day by Brad Duchaine about links between prosopagnosia and autism. I'm a bit annoyed I missed it, because it sounds really interesting.

---

He's a wonderful man! I hope you get a chance to hear him speak. A few years ago, when he was looking for families that included multiple people with face blindness, he came out here and tested me, Middle Son, and Littlest One. He was patient and kind with the boys. I really enjoyed the time he spent with us!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I'm slightly stunned by the interest this thread has generated... I was pretty much expecting it to sink like a rock to the bottom of the page.

Do you think there'd be enough interest in setting up a private board? Some of the things discussed in this thread could be interesting threads in themselves, and I can appreciate the need for a more private venue to discuss issues we don't want aired in front of the Ship as a whole.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I understand what Melon is saying. I remember when horoscopes were all the rage and everyone would read their vague star sign description and say, "That's me!" ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:
I can post a query on "This Isn't Holland" and see whether members would be comfortable opening it up to people who themselves have a disability but are not in a position looking after children with a disability. I think it could be helpful, but I wouldn't want to make that decision unilaterally.

Esmeralda is right, that for now the traffic is really, really low. I think that's partly a function of how few members the board has, and partly a function (as Esmeralda says) of how busy parents of kids with special needs tend to be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:
I can post a query on "This Isn't Holland" and see whether members would be comfortable opening it up to people who themselves have a disability but are not in a position looking after children with a disability. I think it could be helpful, but I wouldn't want to make that decision unilaterally.

Esmeralda is right, that for now the traffic is really, really low. I think that's partly a function of how few members the board has, and partly a function (as Esmeralda says) of how busy parents of kids with special needs tend to be.

---

I guess there could be a conflict, though? If a parent wants to really 'let off steam' about the awfulness of their daily lives looking after that child, and they knew there were adults there with the same/related disability, would it be more difficult for them to say so?

---

I would hope not. IRL I've been able to help a friend let off steam about her daughter's problems by explaining them from an Aspie point of view. Its helped both of us. My friend because she understands her daughters anxieties better, and me because voicing them gives a vent to my own insecurities.

Conversely I've found parents helping me with my feelings and unresolved issues.

My concern with moving this to the this is Holland board is that it is quite clear that there are a lot of issues that need to be discussed in a safe environment, and there are a lot of adults who identify with AS/ASD. I would not want to feel that those already on the board would be feel sidelined by a huge sudden influx of posts. I've had to stop myself several times wanting to post "me me me" posts.
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 
Changing the subject, you might find this amusing, I had to laugh myself in the end, after what I posted about people touching my face.

I went to the Whittlesey "Straw Bear Festival" yesterday. You can google it if you want to find out more, but essentially as well as a man dressed as a bear made out of straw, its an international event which draws Morris dancers and Molly Men from all over, and they perform in groups in the streets.

I was watching one group who had their faces painted red. One of the dancers came over to me and grabbed my head, and rubbed his face against mine, both cheeks, so I was smeared with red paint too. I ought to have been offended but it made my day, I thought it was SO funny!
 

---

Posted by Saint Bertelin (# 5638) on :
 
I have read this thread and done the test. Josephine was very helpful to me a couple of years ago when I began to suspect myself of having a form of ADD. I read up on it and seemed to fit most of the descriptions, and just accepted it and moved on. I knew very little about Asperger Syndrome at the time and reading this thread has made me realise that the symptoms of this particular form of ADD that I had found in myself are all/mostly also associated with Asperger Syndrome, along with a host of other things that people here have mentioned. It isn't just a mild recognition in myself - I know that all of us can recognise at least something of these syndromes/disorders/(insert noun of choice here) in ourselves to one degree or another - this is recognition and understanding, and an ability to relate very closely on many counts.

So I've done the quickie quiz and, having not known how to answer three of the questions because they were asking what others perceive in me, (how on earth am I supposed to know that unless they tell me?), I got the following results:

quote:

---

Your Aspie score: 141 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 86 of 200

---

quote:

---

Do you often talk about your special interests whether others seem to be interested or not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:

quote:

---

Your Aspie score: 141 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 86 of 200

---

So what now? Do GPs have some sort of test?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
Here's one of the questions I couldn't answer:

quote:

---

Do you often talk about your special interests whether others seem to be interested or not?

---

What sort of question is that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:

quote:

---

Your Aspie score: 141 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 86 of 200

---

So what now? Do GPs have some sort of test?

---

If people want a definite expert answer, then they have two ways to get one in the UK. They can either go to their GP and see if they can persuade them to refer them to an autistic spectrum specialist (psychologist/psychiatrist with experience in this field - there's a list on the National Autistic Society website, for example), or if they have a few hundred pounds to spare (!) they can find their own specialist and pay them directly to do the testing.

---

Thank you for this, amber.
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 
If you are formally diagnosed, then I presume that would mean you would have to put it on any job application?
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
St. Bertelin asked,

What sort of question is that?

I think I do it all the time. I post on the Ship, nobody answers. No problem, I keep on posting.

For what it's worth....

Best wishes,

Mary
 

---

Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
I'm not 100% faceblind, as in I will recognise my husband... but I have very very poor face recognition skills. I've just done a couple of tests and realised I am quite different to others in this respect.
faceblind tests

I tend to have done ok at church if people always wear pink, or have a big beard, but didnt realise other people were recognising something I wasnt.... I just thought I had a "bad memory".

very very bizarre.
 

---

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 
(Responding to question on the previous page about whether you have to disclose a disability on a job application.)

In the US, it is entirely up to the individual whether to disclose information about a disability to an employer or potential employer. If you don't tell them, they're not allowed to ask. On the other hand, if you don't tell them, they're not required to make reasonable accommodations for you, either.

There are advantages and disadvantages to disclosing, and there are advantages and disadvantages to not disclosing. It depends in part on the severity of the disability, whether the disabled person might need accommodations, and, well, lots of other things.

OTOH, if you have a formal diagnosis, you probably would have to disclose it on an application for life insurance or health insurance.

[ 13. January 2008, 19:07: Message edited by: Josephine ]
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 
Thanks Josephine.

Does anyone know about the UK?
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 
Google is my friend, this document makes interesting reading ...

AS and job applications
 

---

Posted by Saint Bertelin (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
I don't always know when people are bored, so I had to rely on what other people have told me (which would be "oh yes!")

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by welsh dragon:
St. B, your chorister acquaintance sounds as though he is the one lacking social skills in that exchange, to me!

---

That's my fault for not giving a fuller explanation of what happened. To be fair to him, as I look back at the times he had hinted in the past and I had just thought he was joking and continued speaking to him as though we were bosom buddies, I can easily see how he may have become frustrated and just couldn't bear to feign politeness anymore.

There's little worse than realising after a long time that somebody you had considered a friend actually only tolerated your presence for the sake of politeness. Having recently had that happen to me, I actually appreciate the honesty of the chap at this church, even if it was a little upsetting - more because it came as a surprise. I'd only known him a couple of months and seen him a few times so no tears.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Regarding eye contact, though, it often is easier to talk to someone without it - eg. sitting sideways on, or talking to someone in the back seat of the car when you are in the front seat.
I'm not sure why this is, but it just is. Eye contact is confusing because what the eyes say doesn't always match what the words say.
 

---

Posted by Melon (# 4038) on :
 
But there's a huge cultural component to eye contact. Many many cultures find the amount of eye contact expected in the West to be very odd, and it's not uncommon for eye contact never to happen between people of widely differing status. Does that mean that the cultural norms of the rest of the world were set by aspies, or just that Western culture is screwed?
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Lack of eye-contact is one of the things which generally really helps when communicating with teens.

But it is rather expected in a lot of western social situations. It is also used as a power-thing, IMHO, by people who are good at 'handling' other people. I say that as someone who doesn't mind ordinary eye-contact, but has been the unwelcome recipient of power-mongering/manipulating eye-contact.

I will also point out that there is a the situation where the giver feels they are simply making the other person feel appreciated, but which is received by the recipient as manipulative. (Ok, I'm having serious problems with my church choir director at the moment, but I've also experienced it elsewhere in very-small-town political situations.)

There is normal friendly eye-contact. There is nasty eye-contact. There is aggressive eye-contact. There is evasive-because-I-am-better-than-you eye contact. There is evasive-because-you-scare-me eye contact.

I've only listed the ones I have actually experienced, but "eye-contact", even among those of us who are probably NT, is not a simple social communication.
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Jennifer, that's an excellent list. It certainly gives a panorama of the various forms of eye-contact in a generally common social setting.

I think a lot of the "eye-contact" and "body-language" instances are analysed very subjectively by the participants. For example, one time when I was in a group of people, one person told a funny joke. I laughed and smiled at them and gave what I thought was an appreciative look in their direction, but they later said to me, "Why were you leering at me?"

Part of the difficulty is that I couldn't see myself, as in a mirror, at the time. What I thought I was doing was not what they perceived me as doing.

On the further side of it, when someone gets angry and gets "in your face", people say that the two persons are "eyeball to eyeball", they'll confront each other until they reach the point where somebody blinks, or an infuriated and combative person may enjoin the other, "Look me in the eye and say that again, I dare you!"

I think those are all situations that can crop up for just about anybody, NT or not.

Mary
 

---

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
On the subject of the private board, I do wonder if Living in Gin had in mind a board where tricky relationship issues/health issues or similar things could be discussed 'in private', in which case that sort of board might be better as a separate one from a general one about younger people with a disability? It's worth looking at sites like 'Wrong Planet' (any search engine should find it) and seeing what sort of posts are posted on there for an idea of the subjects likely to be raised, if this was to be about social skills and autistic spectrum matters/related disabilities?

---

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. In fact, I've registered at WrongPlanet.net and have already posted on their forums, but there are so many forums there with so much activity, it's a bit hard to keep up with it all. They're a great resource, but I was thinking a private board on the Ship would be a bit more intimate and friendly, especially since we all share in the life of the Ship on the other boards here as well.

I could imagine a fairly significant amount of overlap between the membership of this new board, Josephine's Not-Holland board, and/or Esmeralda's Waving Not Drowning board, but it would still be nice to have our own space -- and I suspect people on the other boards might feel likewise. (Imagine a group of parents in a coffee shop, discussing their children's' special needs, when a bunch of Aspies shuffle in and start staring at the floor. )

I've given some thought to how a new board might work, and here's what I had in mind:

• Membership is open to all Aspies (officially diagnosed or not), people with social anxiety issues, "male engineer" types, or anybody else who struggles with similar issues. Parents, friends, or family of same would also be welcome.
• Ship's Ten Commandments would apply. Typical threads would be along the lines of what you'd find in Heaven, Purgatory, and All Saints. Hell-like rants would also be permitted, as long as they're not directed at any particular Shipmate or board member.
• Ship's policy against suicidal ideations and medical advice would also apply. I would expand this to include a prohibition against second-guessing anybody else's diagnosis, whether it's an official diagnosis or a self-diagnosis. (In other words, if somebody identities as having Asperger's, ADHD, or whatever, they should be given the benefit of doubt by other members.)

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
"eye-contact" [...] is not a simple social communication.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Love the You you hide:
Thanks Josephine.

Does anyone know about the UK?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
[QUOTE]

...I've given some thought to how a new board might work, and here's what I had in mind:

• Membership is open to all Aspies (officially diagnosed or not), people with social anxiety issues, "male engineer" types, or anybody else who struggles with similar issues. Parents, friends, or family of same would also be welcome.
• Ship's Ten Commandments would apply. Typical threads would be along the lines of what you'd find in Heaven, Purgatory, and All Saints. Hell-like rants would also be permitted, as long as they're not directed at any particular Shipmate or board member.
• Ship's policy against suicidal ideations and medical advice would also apply. I would expand this to include a prohibition against second-guessing anybody else's diagnosis, whether it's an official diagnosis or a self-diagnosis. (In other words, if somebody identities as having Asperger's, ADHD, or whatever, they should be given the benefit of doubt by other members.)

As for the setup, I'd be happy to get things started up and do the hosting (I'd probably ask for one additional host as well), and I'm willing to pay for half the cost of the board if others can make up the difference.

None of the above is written in stone, so I'm open to suggestions. And of course, we'd need a name.

What say you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melon:

...If those other cultures had our self-diagnosis mentality, there'd be self-help groups for those who feel a visceral need to hug casual acquaintances and look everyone in the eye, and those who stigmatised such people might marvel that their cousins in America had attained membership of a club called AS, simply by doing what all right-thinking people consider to be normal.

... Lots of people failed to recognise me when I shaved off my beard, but I don't think they all had AS,

---

As LoveTheYou has already said, there is far more to AS than any aspect of not-looking-at-people or failing to recognise someone, and you are quite right that cultural differences can account for some things. Culture also makes it easier for some aspies to live in particular countries, and very hard to live in others. (Easy e.g. Germany which tends to be far more rule-driven, difficult e.g. Italy where body language and fashion is, by comparison, very important).

A diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome needs a heck of a lot of 'boxes' ticked. There would have to be inappopriate communication skills, odd body language, obsessive hobbies, inability to empathise properly with others, the problems would have to be present over the whole life, etc. Yet people who have severe problems with one or two of these things would have as much right to support and help to overcome their difficulties, and these may indeed relate to something that is in itself a disability. Only an expert can truly know.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
According to your last paragraph, Amber, I had AS when I was a child but don't now. Is that possible, or useful?
 

---

Posted by Quercus (# 12761) on :
 
In contrast to several of the comments, I do have a diagnosis of AS/HFAD which I don't accept.

I was diagnosed during a course of marriage counselling. In very rough outline, my ex-wife-to-be felt she wasn't receiving emotional support, or feedback. One of the counsellors we counsulted, who is recognised in this area, made the diagnosis. Voila, problem identified.

The thing is, I do exhibit some arguably AS traits - I'm not good at large social gatherings and have to spend time alone to recharge afterwards, I like being solitary, I am a bit of a science-nerd by training and choice, I even like cats, dammit. But being told that I don't have empathy, a theory of mind, or an understanding of body language threw me, because in my mind I do (and close friends who I asked confirmed this). I also don't suffer from over-literalism.

I believe I am just hopelessly introverted and not ept in some social situations (which is why at Greenbelt I spoke to all of 3 Shipmates when I first arrived , and then avoided all Shippie contact from then on...sorry... )

Generally - I think AS can be a useful diagnosis, but equally at the borders it can be too easy a label to apply.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The mistaken logic, Quercus, is the following:

You have symptoms X, Y and Z, which are sufficient for a diagnosis of condition A

Condition A is also associated with symptoms U, V and W.

Therefore, you also must have symptoms U, V and W.

Too many health professionals work this way. It doesn't work in developmental disorders, and it doesn't work in mental health either.
 

---

Posted by Quercus (# 12761) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The mistaken logic, Quercus, is the following:

You have symptoms X, Y and Z, which are sufficient for a diagnosis of condition A

Condition A is also associated with symptoms U, V and W.

Therefore, you also must have symptoms U, V and W.

Too many health professionals work this way. It doesn't work in developmental disorders, and it doesn't work in mental health either.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
According to your last paragraph, Amber, I had AS when I was a child but don't now. Is that possible, or useful?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quercus:
Afterthought: one of the points that frustrated me was being diagnosed on some of the more minor indicators of AS, and then it being assumed that the major indicators applied. Because of that, the proposed coping strategies were irritating at best and deeply patronising at worst.

No wonder things didn't work out.

[Afterthought 2: this is the first time I've thought about the whole experience in the this way. Good Lord, auto-therapy on an Internet board. Sorry]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Sounds like you could do with a second opinion?

---

I have been thinking about it.

--

In one of life's little ironies, a couple of (female) friends and colleagues have just informed me that as I'm now single(-ish), they're going to arrange an evening out after work [subtext: at a venue suitable for meeting women]. The thought behind it is rather sweet but the prospect fills me with dread. Hey ho. It could be fun

[ 14. January 2008, 13:05: Message edited by: Quercus ]
 

---

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
According to your last paragraph, Amber, I had AS when I was a child but don't now. Is that possible, or useful?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quercus:
[QUOTE]
In one of life's little ironies, a couple of (female) friends and colleagues have just informed me that as I'm now single(-ish), they're going to arrange an evening out after work [subtext: at a venue suitable for meeting women]. The thought behind it is rather sweet but the prospect fills me with dread. Hey ho. It could be fun

---

Ah yes...unknown and unstructured social events are for me 'Fun' in the same sort of way as going to the hospital for a meeting with the doctors and nurses for some investigations, I find...
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:


But toss him into an unusual, unfamiliar situation with people who are behaving in unexpected ways or for unexpected reasons, and he's as lost as he ever was.

---

Josephine, thank you, as ever. You're able to explain things much more effectively than I can, I think.

That's exactly it. On the surface, we seem to be able to cope, and it's a dangerous situation to be in. A bit like 'skating on thin ice'. We can be skating away, smiling and waving and seeming to have control...but one single unexpected change and we're plunged into icy black waters, unable to breathe...and our wave for help is then so often misinterpreted as attention-seeking or lying or exaggeration, or even a continuation of the cheery waving we were doing a few minutes earlier.

It's also a little like trying to enjoy a nice picnic in the middle of an area of landmines. I don't know where they are, or when I'll step on one, but other people round me know exactly where they are and how to avoid them and think I'm just being completely silly.

At the moment, I'm facing a situation in the church where some of the leaders want me to explain to the rest of their leadership structure about autistic spectrum disabilities. They have no idea how daunting that is, or how likely I am to get it wrong if I have to try it by myself. I have to find a way to explain to them that there's things I manage really well, but others I simply cannot manage, and even I don't always know what they are until someone says "Well, you made a right mess-up of that, didn't you" or "That was just SO rude". (oops!)

So very difficult.
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
At the moment, I'm facing a situation in the church where some of the leaders want me to explain to the rest of their leadership structure about autistic spectrum disabilities. They have no idea how daunting that is, or how likely I am to get it wrong if I have to try it by myself. I have to find a way to explain to them that there's things I manage really well, but others I simply cannot manage, and even I don't always know what they are until someone says "Well, you made a right mess-up of that, didn't you" or "That was just SO rude". (oops!)

So very difficult.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Love the You you hide:


...I've been thinking, maybe if I write a script, I could read it out to them???

---

I guess it might work, but it's what I write in the script that worries me, and what people "hear" as a result. I'm ok training people on factual things. I'm not ok training people who see everything through the 'lens' of our faith. Somehow it seems to distort some of the priorities of the facts at hand. I tried doing this with a particular church.

In some people's minds it becomes a question of how the Bible's message reinterprets things, how it is up to people with disabilities to forgive prejudice and discrimination from their church, and to never, ever consider going to the law to get help as that would be unchristian of them. (Shades of the debate over Wycliffe Hall, perhaps). It has the potential to get some unexpected and sometimes plain nasty reactions, and that's the point where I don't understand the prejudices and I can't function properly in the training/information-process.
 

---

Posted by Esmeralda (# 582) on :
 
Re Quercus's diagnosis - AIUI, a marriage counsellor is not qualified to diagnose an ASD. It needs at least a clinical psychologist, preferably a psychiatrist. So you can either ignore the diagnosis, or see someone who has the appropriate qualifications.

Re the board, I would personally be very grateful if it were open to parents/family of people with an ASD. But I would understand if members felt otherwise.

As for the name, I have been wanting for some time to name an AS group 'Aspirations*'. Whaddya think?

*(could be 'Aspierations' if preferred).

Now, a practical question: what do folks think about the trend no longer to use 'ASD' (autistic spectrum disorder) as a label, but instead to use 'ASC' (autistic spectrum condition). The latter is certainly more neutral, but is it a case of unnecessary political correctness?
 

---

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Esmeralda:
I would personally be very grateful if it were open to parents/family of people with an ASD.

---

quote:

---

As for the name, I have been wanting for some time to name an AS group 'Aspirations*'. Whaddya think?

*(could be 'Aspierations' if preferred).

---

Of the two, I prefer "Aspirations", if only because I loathe puns.

A couple other names to consider:
The Outsiders
The Harbor (keeping with the Ship's nautical theme)
And All This Time I Thought I Was Just a Loser (okay, too long)
Roses Are #ff0000, Violets Are #0000ff, I'm a Geek and So Are You

Okay, I'm really reaching here. Somebody help me out.

quote:

---

Now, a practical question: what do folks think about the trend no longer to use 'ASD' (autistic spectrum disorder) as a label, but instead to use 'ASC' (autistic spectrum condition). The latter is certainly more neutral, but is it a case of unnecessary political correctness?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:

quote:

---

As for the name, I have been wanting for some time to name an AS group 'Aspirations*'. Whaddya think?

*(could be 'Aspierations' if preferred).

---

Of the two, I prefer "Aspirations", if only because I loathe puns.

---

Spelled "Aspirations" it's still a pun.
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
What do folks think about the trend no longer to use 'ASD' (autistic spectrum disorder) as a label, but instead to use 'ASC' (autistic spectrum condition)?

Condition? Hmm. As an informal thing, fine. As a professional 'label', no. I'd go for 'autistic spectrum disability'.

Even at the higher functioning end, it's still every bit as much a disability as other disabilities including (for example) deafness, visual impairment, depression etc. If someone is deaf, they can in theory still live a reasonably good life, but they have to make adjustments and don't get the same quality of input that others do. Same with us, potentially.

With this disability, it's completely invisible, but potentially devastating. Huge numbers of adults have no way to form proper relationships, have a family. They may end up dependent on drink, drugs or self-harm, they are much more likely to be depressed or have anxiety attacks. They might be more vulnerable to bullying, sexual attacks (from misreading signals about 'who's safe to be with', or inadvertently giving out the wrong 'signals' to someone), being defrauded...Hey, a lot of this is reading like the story of my life

The 'label' is the only thing we have. The minute someone gets to call it a "condition", it loses disability status and a lot of people have an even harder time getting any service provider to take it seriously.

I can understand that people want a really nice 'label', but without a powerful one, we also potentially have no rights to help (or the government in the UK will possibly work towards saying 'well, it's just a condition so we'll remove their rights to help anyway 'cos it's cheaper if we do'). That's my concern.

[ 14. January 2008, 16:08: Message edited by: amber32002 ]
 

---

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
Those are valid points, and I'm not disagreeing with any of them. But is the disability inherent in the condition itself, or in dealing with society's reaction to it?
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
I guess it might work, but it's what I write in the script that worries me, and what people "hear" as a result. I'm ok training people on factual things. I'm not ok training people who see everything through the 'lens' of our faith. Somehow it seems to distort some of the priorities of the facts at hand. I tried doing this with a particular church.

In some people's minds it becomes a question of how the Bible's message reinterprets things, how it is up to people with disabilities to forgive prejudice and discrimination from their church, and to never, ever consider going to the law to get help as that would be unchristian of them. (Shades of the debate over Wycliffe Hall, perhaps). It has the potential to get some unexpected and sometimes plain nasty reactions, and that's the point where I don't understand the prejudices and I can't function properly in the training/information-process.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
Roses Are #ff0000, Violets Are #0000ff, I'm a Geek and So Are You

---

Thank you for a laugh at the end of the working day. Marvellous.
 

---

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
LivingInGin, I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understood the question fully. I think a lot of the 'disability' at the high-functioning end is in the way society treats us and expects us to fit with its social rules, yes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
amber32002 have you ever read John M. Hull's work In the Beginning There was Darkness which deals with his struggle with Bible as a Blind person. It gives a real feeling of ambivalence towards the Bible caused both by its inclusion and exclusion of people with disabilities.

Some things are type of disability specific but others are true across many types of disability and the feeling of being "less worthy members" is one that is spread very wide indeed.

Jengie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simon:
...Diagnosis of disabilities such as autism spectrum disorders ought to be done by professionals and not strangers on the Internet. To allow a board which does so is legally risky for the Ship.

---

Thanks for this. Please may I clarify though...? I agree that what you describe would be a bad thing, legally, but I hadn't realised that this was its intention. I thought it was going to be somewhere where those with disabilities could discuss things that related to those disabilities and people could ask how to go about getting a diagnosis from an expert There's no-one here who could possibly diagnose anyone, as far as I know? A sort of duplicate of the existing support board for the parents of children with disabilities?
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
people could ask how to go about getting a diagnosis from an expert

---

I may be being a bit thick ... but surely one would start by seeing your GP
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
people could ask how to go about getting a diagnosis from an expert

---

I may be being a bit thick ... but surely one would start by seeing your GP

---

Alas, if only.... You're absolutely right of course, yet many GPs refuse to have much to do with this, as the NHS often expects only to diagnose people who are too badly disabled to be able to get to a GP to ask to be diagnosed (catch 22 situation...) and there are so few experts in the country that the waiting lists for NHS help can be months or years long or you may not get seen at all or have to travel hundreds of miles. But that's another story...

Also now I'm worried that I've asked a question to clarify a moderator decision and that's not allowed. If so, oops - and very sorry
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 
Lydia, you're halfway there in that you realise you're doing it. I think the trick is not to answer straight away, but allow yourself a pause.

I struggle when people say "Hi, how are you?" because I really want to tell them how I am. Seeing people's reactions when I did tell them how I am, I began to realise that I shouldn't, so the reply now nearly always is "fine".
 

---

Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 
Thank you, LTYYH.

I cannot and will not bring myself to reply "fine" when people ask me how I am, and I hate it when people say "fine" to me. I have learnt that they do not usually mean they really want to know in detail how I am, so I have settled on the compromise of saying something brief that gives just a very little real information.

My FIL helped me with this one. I had had a miscarriage and been ill afterwards. I complained to my FIL that people would keep asking me how I was and I didn't always want to tell them. He told me about an elderly lady he knew who had some chronic condition. She found that "Well, today is one of my better days" or alternatively "Well, today is one of my not-so-good days" satisfied most people - they neither felt fobbed off with "fine" nor overwhelmed with TMI.

I have some stock sentences to use. "Still standing" is one of my favourites when things are bad. But I still struggle with the temptation to reply to questions too comprehensively. Missing out details feels like dishonesty to me, even though I know the other person doesn't really want to know.

Lydia
 

---

Posted by Love the You you hide (# 12249) on :
 
Yes, I also feel dishonest and guilty when I say "fine", but I've decided its the lesser of two evils, as I'm involved in the welcoming of new people to our church, and I don't want to drive them away. If I have the same answer for everyone, its easier. I try to steer the conversation back onto them and away from me.
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
A former choir director once asked me how I was, and I replied, "Pretty good." He said, "I know you're pretty, but are you good?"

That's become one of my favorite lines, and I eagerly await opportunities to use it.
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
I thought it was going to be somewhere where those with disabilities could discuss things that related to those disabilities and people could ask how to go about getting a diagnosis from an expert There's no-one here who could possibly diagnose anyone, as far as I know? A sort of duplicate of the existing support board for the parents of children with disabilities?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
What you're talking about is a board for people with "maybe disabilities" to get advice on finding out what those disabilities might be and how to deal with them,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lydia:
Perhaps we could have a thread here in AS that's a bit like the Question thread in Heaven, but more specific in content. People could ask small questions about social challenges without having to start a whole new thread each time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Esmeralda:
.... I would be personally reluctant to define AS as a mental health problem in itself - it's not, it's a neurological problem ...

---

Hi Laura, I did apologise earlier in the thread, having realised that my asking for clarification might have been seen as arguing (but wasn't meant that way), and I did contact Simon, who has written back to explain the admin situation.

No argument from me at all about admin's right to say what's what on here. It's your board. But can I please add some information: Esmeralda is right - Asperger Syndrome it isn't a mental health condition. It's a different, yet entirely valid, way of processing incoming information. It's a bit like being from one of the cultures which speak an entirely different language, and finding yourself in a world where everyone speaks only English and you turn out to be hopeless at learning a new language and no-one from England wants to speak yours either. Making ourselves understood to each other is the key.

It's why "diagnosis" always sounds very odd. It should say "identification", yet 'diagnosis' is perhaps a 'hangover' from the days when people would only be diagnosed by a doctor if their behaviour was so extreme that they had to be treated/contained in some way and people mistook their distress at not being able to communicate for a mental wellness issue.

As Tony Attwood's team say when they identify someone, "Congratulations - it's Asperger Syndrome!". A more positive approach entirely, and one I heartily agree with, even if the news isn't always what people want.

Supporting people, and encouraging good information-sharing about how to communicate with neurotypical people (and vice versa) are the main aims, and if we can continue to do that here, that would be great.

Totally agree that we are in no way able to diagnose and no-one should be commenting on diagnostic medical matters.

There is (to my knowledge) no faith-based debate community anywhere that has proper experience of this neurodiversity and I'm thinking a lot of people here might want to discuss faith in this context too? Plus lots of people who are neurotypical have asked questions about social issues and their questions and ours may be remarkably similar?

So...er...yes please, I'd love to continue to discuss suitable things here. And not be a burden to admin.
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Poppy:
The National Autistic Society looks like a really good resource and it looks like there is a way of getting a diagnosis here if that is what you want.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
There is (to my knowledge) no faith-based debate community anywhere that has proper experience of this neurodiversity and I'm thinking a lot of people here might want to discuss faith in this context too? Plus lots of people who are neurotypical have asked questions about social issues and their questions and ours may be remarkably similar?

---

So start threads in Purg, Eccles and Keryg to discuss things. Between the aspies, the obsessives, the theologians, the self-taught, the questioning, the random, the etc. etc. etc., I think we have a fair mix of neurodiversity on the Ship who can discuss questions exhaustively. And who can discuss the same question from different angles. Several times a year

E.g. How about a Purg thread riffing on the theme of: When people ask "How are you?" why is the 'correct' answer "Fine" or something equally short and innocuous, especially when it isn't true?

You'll get answers from people who know stuff about anthropology, evolutionary biology and psychology, as well as people who hate the question, those who have found better answers, those who tell the whole truth - and half the time these categories will overlap!

Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
I've recently come across the site of GRASP.org, which has a lot of helpful info and links to diagnostic services here in the NYC area. They also have a variety of support group meetings throughout the US.
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
So start threads in Purg, Eccles and Keryg to discuss things.
E.g. How about a Purg thread riffing on the theme of: When people ask "How are you?" why is the 'correct' answer "Fine" or something equally short and innocuous, especially when it isn't true?

You'll get answers from people who know stuff about anthropology, evolutionary biology and psychology, as well as people who hate the question, those who have found better answers, those who tell the whole truth - and half the time these categories will overlap!

Sarkycow

---

Blimey! We will?? (rummages through inbox for post from previous admin who said use Circus for quizzes, All Saints for help, Heaven for random things)...and I know about Purg, so I guess we just have to work out what's what in Eccles (clearly not a cake) and Keryg and how to phrase the questions differently in each one according to the mix of people in there, I guess?



I'm SO going to get this wrong, I know I am... but I'll have a go....

[ 16. January 2008, 12:29: Message edited by: amber32002 ]
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Meanwhile, over in this thread, let's start talking about specific things, as Josephine suggested.

For example - how do ASDs affect our spirituality? Do they make some things which other people find meaningful opaque to us? Or vice-versa? Does the ASD preference for order and rules have an influence on the traditions in which we express our faith? As a non-literalist reader of Scripture and a post-Evangelical, am I a square peg in a round hole? Etc.
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...how do ASDs affect our spirituality? Do they make some things which other people find meaningful opaque to us? Or vice-versa? Does the ASD preference for order and rules have an influence on the traditions in which we express our faith? Etc.

---

I might not be entirely answering the question, but...

Things I find easy:
Services where all the instructions are written down correctly on the service sheet, or are the same as last time in terms of the order of events.

Or services where there's nothing to do at all. You can just sit and listen/think.

I guess that means I'm fine in very structured High Church or Quaker services, but I certainly can't cope with the ones in between.

Things that worry me about getting faith right:
There's often so much emphasis on 'perfect worship' on the right attitude to prayer, on wonderful communication and relationships that prove how very Christian we are.

Suppose God doesn't like the way I worship?
Suppose my ways of communicating aren't good enough?
Suppose I'm not ever going to be good enough - well, at least in terms of being someone He'd want with Him forever?
Suppose I never do manage to cope with a worship setting again, when communion is so important for me?
Suppose I'm always the one with a bench/pew to herself unless the church is full because people sense that there's something slightly different about my use of body language? Will I ever find a faith community that accepts me for who I am?
Suppose I find another faith community that tells me to (go forth and multiply) like the last one did when I asked for advice to help me?

Big questions. They're the ones that worry me on some level.
 

---

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Those are all excellent questions Amber, and any (or all) of them would make excellent OP's. Some would fit better then others in Eccles, or Keryg, or Purg. You might want to take just one of them (as a start) and try it out on one of those boards.

And don't be surprised at the enormous variety of responses you will get.
 

---

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
I discussed my preferred liturgical style a couple pages ago on this thread. Basically, I feel most at home in a stiff-upper-lip, high-and-dry Anglican cathedral style of worship where everything is clearly spelled out in the bulletin. Good music and a sacred physical space are also very important to me. Luckily I go to a church that pretty much offers all of that.

However, I’ve always struggled with matters of personal faith: while it seems to come naturally to some people, to me God has always seemed to be either incredibly distant, ignoring me, or just plain nonexistent. Maybe it's because of my very logical and scientific way of thinking, but it’s been getting harder and harder for me to recite the Nicene Creed without wondering how much of it is just some human-invented myth that’s been handed down through the ages. I’ve tried my best to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, but as with so many of my other personal relationships, I can’t shake the nagging feeling that the other party isn’t interested.

Maybe the Calvinists are right, and each of us has already been predestined to eternal paradise or damnation since the beginning of time. Somehow I didn’t make the cut, and I just haven’t yet been formally notified. That’s a depressing thought, but if God actually exists, he certainly hasn’t been returning my calls lately.

Fortunately, I can admit to all of that at my church without fear of being excommunicated. I tend to think of my parish as the spiritual counterpart to Rick’s Cafe in Casablanca: Sort of a safe haven in the midst of all the unholy wars raging outside, and a gathering place for a lot of refugees and misfits who wouldn’t otherwise have a spiritual home. If it weren’t for the Episcopal Church in general and my parish in particular, there’s a good chance I would have given up on organized religion altogether.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Campbellite:
Those are all excellent questions Amber, and any (or all) of them would make excellent OP's. Some would fit better then others in Eccles, or Keryg, or Purg. You might want to take just one of them (as a start) and try it out on one of those boards.

And don't be surprised at the enormous variety of responses you will get.

---

Brain processes of a small Aspie, illustrated:

"Oh heck! It's a host - are they cross with me? Have I done something wrong? Is there a separate social meaning to Campbellite saying I might try other boards...(subthought: are the All Saints hosts pinning a picture of me to their dartboard and using it as target practice yet)...which message should go on which board...what will happen when it does...will it become a big open debate with lots of 'robust discussion' and me in the middle of it thinking "oh no, please stop "

No need to answer any of those questions. It's just an illustration of aspie thinking.

There again, if anyone has any answers to any of that, that would be nice.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:
...I’ve always struggled with matters of personal faith: ... I’ve tried my best to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, but as with so many of my other personal relationships, I can’t shake the nagging feeling that the other party isn’t interested.

---

Yup
 

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Posted by mountainsnowtiger (# 11152) on :
 
amber - I'm fairly NT (though with a history of depression) and I can have similar panics to yours about Hosts turning up and commenting on what I've posted! In my case such panics are based just on insecurity and a tendency to worry too much, rather than on aspie thinking.

In answer to some of your questions (please note that all the following are my personal thoughts, based on a couple of years participation in and observation of the Ship; I don't have any official authority here, so I could have misinterpreted stuff about how the Ship works, but the following are my impressions of how things run):-

I don't see any indication that Campbellite is at all annoyed or angry with you. A helpful point to remember generally on the Ship is that if the Hosts or Admins want to point out that you've broken a rule or stepped out of line at all, then they will usually make it very clear that this is what they are doing. Generally, if a Host or Admin is acting in their official capacity then they will sign the bottom of their post,'AS Host / Hell Host / Purg Host / Admin / etc'. If they don't mention their Host/Admin status in a post, then they are just posting as a Shipmate like the rest of us, rather than acting in their official capacity. From what I've seen on the Ship, usually Host / Admin warnings which are signed as such provide very specific details about what you've done wrong / which rule it breaks / what you need to stop doing. So if I'd made a personal attack in Purg, a Host would say something like, "mountainsnowtiger, this sentence: quote[] is a personal attack and therefore against Commandments x,y,z. Please take it to Hell or drop it. Bob, Purg Host." The Hosts and Admins don't tend to use cuddly language or reassure people as much as insecure folks like myself might sometimes like. However, they seem to be fairly lenient towards those who are genuinely trying to play by the rules (the Ship's 10 Commandments) and, if anybody does do something wrong, the Hostly post correcting them tends to be quite clear and specific about what they've done and how their behaviour + posting needs to change.

All of which means that I think Campbellite was just making a friendly suggestion as a fellow Shipmate.

Also, Hosts do like you to learn about the differences between the different boards on the Ship, and if you persistently start threads on the wrong board they might get a little exasperated. However, if you occasionally start a thread on the wrong board, they seem happy to move it over to a more suitable board without much of a fuss. So, I really wouldn't worry if occasionally you start a thread and then a Host moves it to a different board. (Another option, if you're very worried about it, is to pm a Host before starting a thread in order to get a second opinion of which board the thread would be most suited to.)

Hope all of that helps a bit. I'm enjoying your posts, both here and on other threads, so please don't worry too much about whether you're getting everything right all the time. The Ship's main rules are the 10 Commandments, which are fairly straightforward. If you do ever make a serious mistake in a post, the Hosts will let you know about it in fairly clear and straightforward terms. If it's a genuine mistake, they won't hold it against you. So for now, please keep posting and enjoying your time on board.


 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
Oh phew...thank you.
Still not sure I'm quite brave enough to try a completely new thread about my worries on the 'robust debate' boards, but I'm having a go at trying out the other boards here and there to see what sort of things happens on them. I'll get braver, I expect.
 

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Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
I have similar issues when posting here, which probably aren't helped by the fact that I have, umm, sort of a "history" of putting my foot into my mouth in particularly dramatic ways.

Also, the hosts and admins here tend to be much more hands-on than on most other discussion boards I frequent. On many other boards, offending posts or threads will simply be deleted without comment, and sometimes the identities of the hosts aren't even made public. Around here, though, things are usually spelled-out in a very direct manner, which is somewhat refreshing. The general rule of thumb is, if you have to ask if you're in trouble or not, you probably aren't.
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
I'm puzzled by the preference for liturgical worship expressed by those who are, or may be, AS personalities.

I was raised in an independent evangelical chapel back in the 1950s, and since then have been comfortably attending non-liturgical services in a variety of nonconformist denominations.
It's easy, you stand up for the hymns, and the final benediction, and sit for the rest of the time. Mostly, responses are confined to 'Amen' at the end of the prayers.

Occasionally I have visited the Anglican Churches of various friends, and have been attending the Parish Church here quite frequently in the past few years.
I find it very confusing, and difficult to follow the services, in spite of having it set out in a service book. I never know which page I am supposed to be on, some things are missed out, and other things inserted, depending on the time of year. I'm getting the hang of things now, but it has been quite distracting, and distressing on many occasions

How come Aspies don't get lost and confused?
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I'm puzzled by the preference for liturgical worship expressed by those who are, or may be, AS personalities.

How come Aspies don't get lost and confused?

---

I do if things change. But in Very High Anglican I've been to, they tend to be very specific in the Order of Service sheet thingies they hand out, even down to when to genuflect and which direction to face. If it was 'High Anglican Make The Service Up As You Go Along' someone would be tapping me on the shoulder and saying, "Excuse me, my dear, but why are you hiding under the pews?"
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I'm puzzled by the preference for liturgical worship expressed by those who are, or may be, AS personalities.

I was raised in an independent evangelical chapel back in the 1950s, and since then have been comfortably attending non-liturgical services in a variety of nonconformist denominations.
It's easy, you stand up for the hymns, and the final benediction, and sit for the rest of the time.

---

quote:

---

Mostly, responses are confined to 'Amen' at the end of the prayers.

Occasionally I have visited the Anglican Churches of various friends, and have been attending the Parish Church here quite frequently in the past few years.
I find it very confusing, and difficult to follow the services, in spite of having it set out in a service book. I never know which page I am supposed to be on

---

quote:

---

some things are missed out

---

quote:

---

and other things inserted, depending on the time of year.

---

quote:

---

I'm getting the hang of things now, but it has been quite distracting, and distressing on many occasions

How come Aspies don't get lost and confused?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Love the You you hide:
I'm a former RC, now high church Anglican. I love the liturgy, although I find certain things make me unreasonably angry. I can cope with most changes fine if they're written down, but BCP was a BIG shock for me, and its taken me a little while to adjust. Most of our services are CW though. I still want to "lift them UP to the Lord" at the start of the Eucharistic prayer. Also if I go to the Cathedral early morning communion service, I get annoyed when they use a specific prayer just before the EP, and its not written down anywhere, so everyone knows it except me (something about transforming fire...). Of course, I could always google it...

Also, over Christmas, the people that walked in darkness HAS seen a great light, not have!

Whether or not I'm right on this last one, some pedant will probably tell me, but it is what I was told when I was growing up, so its just plain wrong to me!

---

quote:

---

Isaiah 9:2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arrietty:
'A people' = a nation (singular).

Eg

A People at War or Japan - Images of a People.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:

All of which means that I think Campbellite was just making a friendly suggestion as a fellow Shipmate.

---

Yes, I read it that way too. I also felt that the opening sentence (about your questions being excellent) was genuinely meant. I thought that Campbellite wanted to encourage you to be brave and post some of them. The bit about posting them one at a time seemed to me just a sensible suggestion of what would lead to the most constructive kind of discussion.

Like mountainsnowtiger, I too am enjoying your posts and hope you will keep posting.

Lydia
 

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Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Living in Gin:

I’ve tried my best to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, but as with so many of my other personal relationships, I can’t shake the nagging feeling that the other party isn’t interested.

---

As a result of some books I've been reading by Henry Cloud and John Townsend, I've had an interesting thought about this verse:

If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. (1 John 4:20, NIV)

I think it applies to receiving love as well as to giving it. I think we are hard wired to learn how to receive love by getting loved by people, and that is how we become able to receive love from God. I've certainly seen people who felt God didn't love them suddenly realise that He did after all when they spent a while with people who loved them and made them feel loved.

That makes it hard, not only for the genuinely unloved in human terms, but also for those who aren't good at reading the signals that other people do love them. for Amber, LiG and everyone else who feels that way.

My own experience is that there are very few people that I feel sure are interested in being in relationship with me - my parents and my kids and maybe one or two others, and Jesus, definitely. But as for everyone else, yes, absolutely, I always have the nagging feeling of not really being wanted.

(I would have said also my dog, but he had to be put down last Saturday. )

Lydia
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lydia:
...That makes it hard, not only for the genuinely unloved in human terms, but also for those who aren't good at reading the signals that other people do love them. for Amber, LiG and everyone else who feels that way.

My own experience is that there are very few people that I feel sure are interested in being in relationship with me - my parents and my kids and maybe one or two others, and Jesus, definitely. But as for everyone else, yes, absolutely, I always have the nagging feeling of not really being wanted.

(I would have said also my dog, but he had to be put down last Saturday. )

Lydia

---

Oh Lydia, I'm so sorry to hear that
Dogs and cats are such wonderful companions and their loss is always so very hard.

Thank you for your kind thoughts on this. I think I'd have to phrase any questions elsewhere very carefully to make it a general discussion point not a personal question.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
I have started a new thread on Purg about diversity
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
I was trying to think of a way to explain why Aspies may get unduly distressed if they make a mistake with someone.

Imagine you have photographs of all the people you know. Imagine you've put them out on a desk in front of you. You can probably visualise each person, what they are like, what their interests are, how they get on with the other people. You could probably arrange them in groups according to interests, family ties etc. Imagine that just one of them is cross with you...You can probably 'reason' that there are lots and lots who aren't, and be very calm about it.

Now collect up all the photos into one 'pack'. Now you can only see one photo at a time. The rest are there, but hidden because all your concentration is only on that one photo. You now can't work out who would get on with who, because you'll need to remember everyone else and that takes up too much thinking-space.

Imagine that the one person whose photo is at the front is the one who is cross with you. You can't 'see' any of the rest of the people at all - so their crossness represents 100% of the 'visible' people.

Hmm, not sure that works as a visual idea, but it's as close as I think I can get. For Aspies, I think we see people one-at-a-time, and our brains just can't imagine lots of people at once in the right sort of social ways, so we end up with very different reactions to things.

Does that make any sense at all?
 

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Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mountainsnowtiger:
I don't see any indication that Campbellite is at all annoyed or angry with you.

---

quote:

---

A helpful point to remember generally on the Ship is that if the Hosts or Admins want to point out that you've broken a rule or stepped out of line at all, then they will usually make it very clear that this is what they are doing. Generally, if a Host or Admin is acting in their official capacity then they will sign the bottom of their post,'AS Host / Hell Host / Purg Host / Admin / etc'. If they don't mention their Host/Admin status in a post, then they are just posting as a Shipmate like the rest of us, rather than acting in their official capacity. From what I've seen on the Ship, usually Host / Admin warnings which are signed as such provide very specific details about what you've done wrong / which rule it breaks / what you need to stop doing. So if I'd made a personal attack in Purg, a Host would say something like, "mountainsnowtiger, this sentence: quote[] is a personal attack and therefore against Commandments x,y,z. Please take it to Hell or drop it. Bob, Purg Host." The Hosts and Admins don't tend to use cuddly language or reassure people as much as insecure folks like myself might sometimes like. However, they seem to be fairly lenient towards those who are genuinely trying to play by the rules (the Ship's 10 Commandments) and, if anybody does do something wrong, the Hostly post correcting them tends to be quite clear and specific about what they've done and how their behaviour + posting needs to change.

---

Have you been peaking at the Hostly Rulebook? That is almost verbatim what we are instructed to do.

quote:

---

All of which means that I think Campbellite was just making a friendly suggestion as a fellow Shipmate.

---

quote:

---

Also, Hosts do like you to learn about the differences between the different boards on the Ship, and if you persistently start threads on the wrong board they might get a little exasperated. However, if you occasionally start a thread on the wrong board, they seem happy to move it over to a more suitable board without much of a fuss. So, I really wouldn't worry if occasionally you start a thread and then a Host moves it to a different board. (Another option, if you're very worried about it, is to pm a Host before starting a thread in order to get a second opinion of which board the thread would be most suited to.)

Hope all of that helps a bit. I'm enjoying your posts, both here and on other threads, so please don't worry too much about whether you're getting everything right all the time. The Ship's main rules are the 10 Commandments, which are fairly straightforward. If you do ever make a serious mistake in a post, the Hosts will let you know about it in fairly clear and straightforward terms. If it's a genuine mistake, they won't hold it against you. So for now, please keep posting and enjoying your time on board.

---

The Force is strong with this one.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Campbellite:
The Force is strong with this one.

---

I've even followed your suggestion and given the Purg hosts something to fret over
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Campbellite:
Those are all excellent questions Amber, and any (or all) of them would make excellent OP's. Some would fit better then others in Eccles, or Keryg, or Purg. You might want to take just one of them (as a start) and try it out on one of those boards.

And don't be surprised at the enormous variety of responses you will get.

---

Brain processes of a small Aspie, illustrated:

"Oh heck! It's a host - are they cross with me? Have I done something wrong? Is there a separate social meaning to Campbellite saying I might try other boards...(subthought: are the All Saints hosts pinning a picture of me to their dartboard and using it as target practice yet)...which message should go on which board...what will happen when it does...will it become a big open debate with lots of 'robust discussion' and me in the middle of it thinking "oh no, please stop "

No need to answer any of those questions. It's just an illustration of aspie thinking.

There again, if anyone has any answers to any of that, that would be nice.

---

Mountainsnowtiger has explained most of it (e.g. if the Hosts are being Hostly, they will use their "Signature" and be specific about things - you don't have to guess).

I will merely add that you can always PM a host if you are confused and looking for clarification, especially if it was something they themselves said or you are thinking about posting something on the board they host, and are not sure if it's the "right place".

They are there to help. Except the hellhosts . If you have to ask about whether something is appropriate for Hell (when it's not a personal conflict, of course ... see Commandments 1,3,4), the answer is sure to be "Don't post it".

Charlotte
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

They are there to help. Except the hellhosts . If you have to ask about whether something is appropriate for Hell (when it's not a personal conflict, of course ... see Commandments 1,3,4), the answer is sure to be "Don't post it".

Charlotte

---

I've seen Hell..and there's no way I'm posting a thing in there. It reminds me of the wrestling matches on the tele where you wonder if the whole things's fake but you still don't want to be in the ring...
 

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Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
That's actually a pretty acurate description of Hell.
 

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Posted by Esmeralda (# 582) on :
 
Campbellite, how come we private board hosts don't get a look at the Hostly Handbook? This is the first I've heard of it, and it sounds really useful.

Now I'm feeling like an outsider too. Actually, to return to topic (sort of), this is, I suspect, a common feeling in the parents of kids with AS. Because the disability is 'hidden', unlike something like Down's Syndrome, other parents can have your child down as a troublemaker and not want their kids to associate with you. I think I'll go and post something on This isn't Holland about this..
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Esmeralda:
..I suspect, a common feeling in the parents of kids with AS....other parents can have your child down as a troublemaker and not want their kids to associate with you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Poppy:
There has to be a point when the safety of the majority overrides the needs of one child.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Poppy:
But there is a point when as a parent of a child who is being kicked, punched and hit by a child with ASD you just have to say enough is enough and being disabled in any way is not an excuse to hurt others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Esmeralda:
Yes, of course real bad behaviour shouldn't be accepted. But I'm talking about the situation where your child is just different, and that makes you different, and the other mums don't talk to you.

I know there was a time when my son was hitting other kids and doing lots of unacceptable stuff but it was because he hadn't been diagnosed and so wasn't getting appropriate input.

---

quote:

---

Chorister asks:
I am curious to know, from those with Asperger's (or from those who have similar traits) whether people with Asperger's Syndrome dream the same as those without. Do they / you have vivid imaginative dreams? Or repetitive horror dreams? Or dream of lists of numbers, dream in detail about a special interest, hobby, etc.?

I guess dreams are often involuntary so may be a sign of how the brain is working when switched off from conscious thought.

---

This would be an interesting discussion to have in Purgatory, where you would get a broad input from lots of different people, not just self-identifying Aspies.

Sarkycow
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Dream thread is now started in Purgatory if people would like to continue that discussion.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
As a result of this thread, and doing the quizzes, I now find that I have Aspie and neurotypical traits.

Oh goody.



Ian J.
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
All these contributions in less than two weeks... the Ship seems to be full of us.

First I ever heard about Aspergers was in the bookshop at Monticello, Virginia a few years ago. A book postulates, based partly on descriptions of Thomas Jefferson by his contemporaries, that he had the condition. That's not a bad role model by way of introduction.

A psychiatrist once mentioned, though probably not as a formal diagnosis, that my personality was schizoid. I was not surprised to hear that, because in our youth my favorite cousin had said that he was. The DSM mentions that schizoid personality and Asperger's can be difficult to distinguish. For awhile I thought that I was probably not an Aspie because not obsessive-compulsive enough, but I probably have my share of that, too. So much else fits. Phobia of unexpected loud noises-- check. Sing-song speech in childhood-- check. Unusual specialized interests, check. College was a blessed revelation in that one could, at least, finally meet peers who shared the same specialized interests. Wandering eyes, check. Tendency to misunderstand oblique statements, check. Apparent emotional stolidity, check. Social awkwardness and preference for solitude, big check. I'm probably a mild case as they go, but it is a relief to know (or suspect). Boomers typically would not have been diagnosed early because it had been only recently identified and was not at all widely recognized in our youth. Probably only a cutting-edge therapist, let alone a teacher or school counselor, could have been aware of it in those days.

Has anyone encountered the theory of exposure to mercury or smallpox vaccination in early childhood as a possible cause?
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The vaccination story from Dr Andrew Wakefield and MMR is explained by coincidence - the MMR jab coincides with the observations of differences in the child's development. The same would apply for small pox and other vaccinations.

Having tried to get a child with ASD identified at around 3 years old, his differences were noticeable at 18 months, which coincided with vaccinations and the birth of his younger sister, who was developing normally, and put down to that by his mother. He had the "triad of impairments" and a definite uneven development of the different aspects of learning (social, physical, intellectual, emotional and creative), even at 3.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
The vaccination theory of autism? Hmm, not sure. Have read a lot about it, and have no doubt that some children may react badly to vaccinations, but there's so much research yet to be done on any aspect of how the brain develops.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Right I have a really odd question. What normally happens with things on the spectrum is that people who are at extreme ends of the spectrum end up being classed as having some sort of syndrome.

So what is the opposite syndrome to Aspbergers the one that the extreme empathisers have?

Jengie
 

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Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
I'd wondered if there was a name for that too Jengie!

Presumably people with an organizational difficulty, who easily forget things, strong empathy skills... (Just trying to work it out, but not sure if Im managing too!)
 

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Posted by JB (# 1776) on :
 
And from the BBC website
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
The opposite of Autism? Hmm...tricky. Williams Syndrome is widely regarded as "opposite" in one way, because those that have this are ultra-friendly to everyone. In reality, extreme empathy is seen as a good thing by society so I doubt that there really would be a medical term for it at all.

I loved the link to the BBC site. It's good to find something positive to say about any different set of abilities, and certainly there is popular opinion that people like Einstein were on the Spectrum somewhere. (PS Mr Spock is certainly a fictional hero amongst many aspies ).
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
But a difficulty in being able to systemise would be really awkward. I would expect delayed speech for a starters. Or rather though they would learn their first words "MumMum" "Moo-cow" and such they would not get the boost in vocabulary that happens about three or four when children have laid down a system into which they fit the words.

I would equally expect learning difficulties with language due to grammar (a system) and things like mathematics.

Jengie

[ 27. January 2008, 17:12: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Well, you folks may have solved a puzzle for me. My foster daughter from a couple years back--we knew something was wrong, but not what. Now I'm fairly sure it's Williams, and will suggest to her that she gets tested. It would explain a lot.

I did in fact often think that she was the opposite of autistic--excessively friendly, very very talkative, rarely without a smile, never met a stranger in her life. And oddly for someone from an abusive family, seemed to have no fear of people--even dangerous people. Even after they proved they were dangerous, to her personally. God have mercy.

But for all that, she couldn't build anything more than a superficial friendship to save her life, because she couldn't pick up on social cues, particularly the non-verbal ones, and had absolutely no sense of what was socially appropriate. She couldn't read faces or tones of voice at all, and so when someone walked in with a black cloud hanging over their heads, she'd chirp, "See you got a new haircut. Too bad it looks terrible," and then be honestly surprised when the person exploded.

(But none of this was apparent when we have various doctors interview her, test her, etc. She just came off as an exceptionally friendly and attractive teenager.)

And she couldn't systematize AT ALL. That's what drove me round the bend. It resulted in major problems with her homework, and you couldn't teach her things by families or classes--every individual item, she had to learn individually. You couldn't say "Don't wear that skimpy top to school," and assume she'd realize it was also inappropriate for church. Or a wedding. Or a funeral. You had to spell it out every damn time, in every possible situation. Good thing she was so sweet tempered, because by the end of a couple hours, I was ready to bite someone.

So it's not like autism in one way, but very like autism in another.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Oh, about language--

No, the systematizing thing didn't cause her much trouble there, but I think the reason was because Williams Syndrome results in such an overwhelming drive to reach out to people that they normally have very good vocabulary, expression, etc. Nothing is going to stand in their way when it comes to communicating, even a major cognitive problem. (My foster daughter regularly calls us at 1 a.m. and drags us out of bed to talk about nothing in particular--so the Wrath of the Lamb Chopped has no effect on her either. Communicate she will, come hell or high water.)
 

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Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 
Thanks for comments earlier responding to my issue with dealing with humorous questions. I know this is a very tiny thing, compared with some people's struggles, but it's really bugging me, and this thread is the first place I've ever found for asking this kind of thing.

Now I have a specific example, from this week. Bear in mind that I'm female and have no possibility of growing facial hair of any kind. Here's an extract from a much longer conversation:

Friend (incredulously): When my dad shaved his beard off, someone at his work asked him if he'd grown a moustache.
Me: But I could do that really easily.
Friend: What, grow a moustache?
Me: No, realise someone's face looked different and not be able to remember what it looked like before.

Afterwards, I was annoyed with myself for responding to his joke as if he meant it literally, and dismissing it impatiently as a distraction to what I wanted to say.

So, I would be very grateful if someone could explain how, in that kind of situation, one can acknowledge the joke and still get to make one's point. Or ought I not to mind so much about getting to make my point???

Thanks,
Lydia.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
The proper reply is a weak "Ha ha. Very funny." and then go on with your point.

But I'm no good at this either--I usually register the humorous intent, dismiss it, mentally think "Ha" and pass on to the main point, all at lightning speed without stopping to realize that the other person is still waiting for me to acknowledge the humor. So I come off as terminally earnest. I'm giving up, I think.
 

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Posted by Chelley (# 11322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lydia:

Friend (incredulously): When my dad shaved his beard off, someone at his work asked him if he'd grown a moustache.
Me: But I could do that really easily.
Friend: What, grow a moustache?
Me: No, realise someone's face looked different and not be able to remember what it looked like before.

Afterwards, I was annoyed with myself for responding to his joke as if he meant it literally, and dismissing it impatiently as a distraction to what I wanted to say.

So, I would be very grateful if someone could explain how, in that kind of situation, one can acknowledge the joke and still get to make one's point. Or ought I not to mind so much about getting to make my point???

---

I (non-Aspergers as far as I know!) just read that and didn't detect a joke but read your response as literally as your friend had done. Now your friend may have been joking I suppose, but they could have (like me) just been responding to the comment and assumed it was a response to what immediately preceded it.
I might well have responded "what, grow a moustache?" in response to what you said, but not because I was joking, just because I misunderstood and that was the instant reply. Your next answer made complete sense of things and in fact sometimes it is hard to work out* straight away what's different about someone, when they change their appearance, even if you see them every day (Aspie or non-Aspie)!

*having noted things said about the unhelpfulness of peculiar expressions being taken literally, I stopped myself saying "hard to twig" and went for "work out"!

[sorry, probably not a very helpful reply!]

[ 28. January 2008, 07:55: Message edited by: Chelley ]
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
Chelley, I'm not sure either. I get by with the words "goodness me!" which seem to cover the possibility that what they said may be humourous in some way, then look intently for signs of humour in their facial expressions.

Incidentally, can't remember quite which thread it was on, but Karl was saying that he reads numberplates of cars, and someone said "don't we all do that if we're bored?" What I noticed about me and reading numberplates and types of car is that it's also how I identify who's in the car. If they're in the wrong car, I've normally no clue who they are. Likewise if they pass me by in the street...no idea who I'm talking to most of the time. It makes for some tricky social conversations in the street
 

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Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :
 
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.

I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.

For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary

But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)

I scored 32 on the AQ test linked above, and 13 EQ/50 SQ on the EQ/SQ test.

I don't have any interest in getting a formal diagnosis. I think it would tell me what I already know - that I have some of the traits and not others - and then add a somewhat arbitrary decision as to whether I actually count as an aspie or not; and I can't see what difference that information would make to me.
 

---

Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 
Thanks Chelley

When you just read the conversation in print, it's not clear whether his question was a joke or a misunderstanding. But in real life I felt his facial expression and tone of voice made it very obvious that it was a joke.

I don't have a problem recognising that the person is joking. I have a problem adapting my response in the light of the realisation that the person is joking. And especially I have a problem with realising the adaptation is necessary in time to adapt.

I like Lamb Chopped's suggestion of "Ha ha. Very funny." Now if I can just catch myself in time, I can try using that one. Thanks LC.

But I think actually this is part of a wider issue with me of being too single minded about saying what I want to say, and not paying enough attention to the thoughts and feelings of the person or people I'm talking too. I think I read people's non-verbal cues quite well when I'm not in the grip of a point I want to make. When my focus is on what I want to explain or relate, though, I'm hopeless at reading non-verbal cues in real time, and it only produces regret when I am able to do it in hindsight.

Lydia
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
I find I can either listen to what people are saying, or look at them, not both. Or rather, if I have to do both, it takes a heck of a lot out of me.

Is it any different if you're walking along with someone listening to them, or driving along in a car listening to them? Do you find it any easier to 'pick up on things' that way?

[ 29. January 2008, 06:47: Message edited by: amber32002 ]
 

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Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 
That's interesting Amber.

My brain can do lots of different kinds of input at once, but if there's output happening then the input gets delayed until the output has stopped. I therefore end up with social interactions that are the verbal equivalent of cross-posting.

Lydia
 

---

Posted by Chelley (# 11322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lydia:
Thanks Chelley

When you just read the conversation in print, it's not clear whether his question was a joke or a misunderstanding. But in real life I felt his facial expression and tone of voice made it very obvious that it was a joke.

---

I think in my case it's to do with being gullible! Of course I prefer to describe this trait as having a 'very honest and trusting character'! Someone once tried the "did you know they've taken the word 'gullible' out of the dictionary?" joke, on me and I responded with a surprised, "really!" then twigged a few seconds later when they were rolling about!
I thought I'd do the aspie quiz yesterday and I came out rather non Aspie with a score of Aspie: 75/200 and NT: 138/200 so I have to conclude that I'm either just very trusting or a bit daft!
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
A question has arisen on the Purg thread about how people go from "vague acquaintances" to "good friends" and on to "this is a relationship".

Each is clearly characterised by a set of behaviours and expectations, but what? And how do you move a relationship on from one to the other, e.g. turning an acquaintance into a boyfriend/girlfriend successfully? Or turning an acquaintance into a good friend? How do you know if they are sincere?

Any good ideas or things to share on this?
 

---

Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 
And also, how do you pick which of your acquaintances to try to move to "real friends" with?
 

---

Posted by Chelley (# 11322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
A question has arisen on the Purg thread about how people go from "vague acquaintances" to "good friends" and on to "this is a relationship".

Each is clearly characterised by a set of behaviours and expectations, but what? And how do you move a relationship on from one to the other, e.g. turning an acquaintance into a boyfriend/girlfriend successfully? Or turning an acquaintance into a good friend? How do you know if they are sincere?

Any good ideas or things to share on this?

---

I think I'll go for an attempt at answering the 'acquaintance to good friend' (which was also Lydia's quesion) part!
In my experience there hasn't generally been a deliberate decision about it but I've found that with the people who became good friends: we got on well on meeting, perhaps had things in common or things to talk about, over time got to trust one another with parts of our lives that were more than chit-chat (ie family stuff, marriage stuff (for those that were married), faith stuff etc - depending on the interests of the individuals), enjoyed spending time together - whether that was with the kids and a cup of tea or going shopping or whatever. And gradually over time they become the people you want to see fairly regularly, the people you depend on for support - and offer support to in return, the people you enjoy a bit of leisure time with according to mutual interests (or just humouring each other and doing what the other one wants!), the people who know all about you and still want to hang around!

In terms of the actual steps, if I think of one friend and how we became good friends... we were part of a church group that met weekly and through being in the group we got on well. Then she had a baby and I took a gift round, then perhaps we met up for coffee when we had some free time and started to get to know more about each other and our stories. We might have had chats on the phone sometimes, or gone out to the pub (we were younger then and had the energy for a social life )... trust and friendship grew over time and I became godmum to her children, we shared family holidays (though that doesn't always happen/work with friends) and she would generally be one of my primary ports of call in a crisis!

In terms of sensing sincerity, if they're fairly enthusiastic about following suggestions to meet up or chat and don't always have a reason they can't make it (sometimes of course they might genuinely not be able to make it) or don't seem to want to end a conversation very quickly on the phone, then those are good signs... if they seem interested in you and your life and concerns and interests (within reason ) that's a good sign - though it works both ways.

Don't know if that's any help?

[ 29. January 2008, 20:25: Message edited by: Chelley ]
 

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Posted by Chelley (# 11322) on :
 
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
Chelley: "In terms of sensing sincerity, if they're fairly enthusiastic about following suggestions to meet up or chat and don't always have a reason they can't make it (sometimes of course they might genuinely not be able to make it) or don't seem to want to end a conversation very quickly on the phone, then those are good signs... if they seem interested in you and your life and concerns and interests (within reason ) that's a good sign - though it works both ways."

Ah, that explains a lot about why we find it hard. So, people are trying to "sense sincerity" by looking at:

Whether we are enthusiastic enough about meeting up (first challenge - how do we convey enthusiasm for this successfully?),

Whether we have a good reason not to attempt to meet up (second challenge - are we going to be bold enough to say "oh heck, social occasions frighten me witless and I'm likely to say no to a night out with someone I don't know very well but I'd be ok if we did something I can cope with")

Whether we want to end a conversation quickly on the phone (oh deary me - I may do this - I'm not sure how you know what the right length of conversation on a phone is?).

And I'd have to show the right amount of interest in the other person's life, which is even more of a challenge. How do you know what the right amount is?

I must have got some of this right - I do have friends, but I've no idea what the answers would be to those challenges.

This is the trouble - I would have really benefited in my life if we had specific instructions like "phone conversations with friends should last for 3.5 minutes and should include the following elements - appropriate greeting (please select from Good Morning Sir [or Madam as the case may be]/Hello me old chum/etc - see appropriate list - and greeting the boss with "hello me old chum" may not be appropriate), make enquiry after the person's health, wait for response, process response (whilst still listening to input), check for factors in the response that require answering...is it a crisis, in which case reply with "oh I'm sorry to hear that!"...Is it good news, in which case reply with "that's wonderful - you must be really pleased?" etc etc. NB it is important to get this right. Replying with "you must be really pleased" when they have just told you their cat has died is not a good thing. Timing is therefore important.

In face to face situations there's often no way to know what the person I'm meeting wants to achieve - or whether a conversation is going well or badly. I now know to look for body language signals like feet tapping, but if they're looking cross but they don't say, I have no way to spot it. Tricky, isn't it...

Further ideas very welcome?
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Whether we are enthusiastic enough about meeting up (first challenge - how do we convey enthusiasm for this successfully?),

Whether we have a good reason not to attempt to meet up (second challenge - are we going to be bold enough to say "oh heck, social occasions frighten me witless and I'm likely to say no to a night out with someone I don't know very well but I'd be ok if we did something I can cope with")

---

If they are offering something you don't want to do but you would like to meet them elsewhere you can always say that you would like to meet, but there is, for example, this exhibition you would like to see or whatever you want to do. If they aren't interested, you may not have much in common, if they are interested, then you have a point of contact.

You can politely cut off phone conversations by saying that you are very sorry, but you have to go to collect children/sort out someone at the door/whatever actual reason means you need to go. Cautionary story, my grandmother used to tell my mother to tell unwanted callers that she was in the bath. When the same caller was told this in rapid succession, he drily responded: "Very clean woman, your mother".
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
Thanks, Chelley, though people are remarkably resistant to suggestions that we go to look at archive records for tithe maps I did like the story about the bath.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chelley:
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!

---

Part of me was hoping that there's none of my peers who are more literal than I am and who would have thought "oh - I just grope someone?". More likely to end in court than church wedding, I fear
 

---

Posted by Chelley (# 11322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:
Further ideas very welcome?

---

I'll have a go (and try and answer some of your questions)...

My first thought is that if I had been getting to know you in some real life place, rather than an internet place, I would be just as interested in trying to understand how the world and communication is to you - but I would have needed to find out as honestly and helpfully as you have been here, how it feels to be you. So, if I'd had a conversation with you and maybe wondered to myself why you weren't making eye contact with me (which as has been said an NT might interpret as you were bored with talking to me) it would be helpful to know that you just find it uncomfortable. Then I'd need to explain that with my way of communicating I find it very hard to catch what's being said withoutlooking at someone's face (eyes and mouth!) and I'm not trying to make you squirm! What all this needs is openness which I think is an important basis for friendship anyway.

Sometimes I think it would be helpful if we went round with cards in our pockets explaining oursleves a bit - mine (and there is actually a Coeliac card you can get!) would probably say... "I have a bowel condition so when I say 'no thankyou' to food you might offer me, I mean no! Yes, just one little biscuit will hurt and if you invite me round to dinner and I say 'no sauce and everything completely plain' then yes I mean it and a little bit of Soy for flavour will send me to the bathroom for the rest of the night! I am NOT a fussy eater but you try knowing what will happen if you eat the tiniest bit of gluten and see how careful you are!"

Perhaps there could be a helpful Aspie card along similar lines!

I was attempting to be more direct with the whole 'sensing sincerity' thing... so if someone repeatedly says 'no thanks' to an invitation to meet for coffee/go to a museum/have lunch (especially if they don't give what seems like a very good reason) then it's likely they're sticking at acquaintances. If they ask questions (such as those I might ask you if I met you) about you and seem willing to try and accommodate how things work for you, then that's a good sign of a potential friend. If you can be honest with each other and not take instant offence when the NT says, "that's enough on 18th century brickwork for today" or you say "can we walk along and talk for a bit because all this eye contact is freaking me out" then there's potential.

As to your specific questions: "how do we convey enthusiasm successfully (about meeting up)?" You need to say it but tell the other person if you can - "I might not seem enthusiastic, but I am!" And they do need to have some idea that you will communicate with words what they might communicate with gestures/body language/bubbling excitement! Unfortunately NT's are used to finding the latter more accurate from one another than the words said... so it might even be quite refreshing once they understand!

And as to "are we going to be bold enough to say 'oh heck, social occassions frighten me witless'..." then yes, the most helpful thing is to be bold enough to say it and then suggest an alternative so they don't think you're just blowing them off!
I think being honest and upfront about how things are to you - and also trying to get a sense of how things are for them is a very good start of real friendship. And the need to be open if you inadvertently offend each other would be useful too.

Sorry there are no fixed rules about length of phone conversation but I'd say that it's not a lot different than the general male tendency to do 'briefly functional' on the phone only and once you know that you don't get all in a state when they won't talk for hours. Once people realise they can understand.

It's hard for me to say more about your phone example because of the way I think and not having enough of an idea of how it comes across to you. With your example conversation I'd be listening to what they said (eg "my cat has just died" and then responding to that as best I can, "Oh no, I'm sorry, anything I can do to help?" - my answer to everything you see is "nice cup of tea?" )
I suppose the thing is being able to switch off your own agenda for long enough to properly listen to and respond to what the other person is saying - and it's not only Aspies that can struggle with that... but I'm aware that it's harder for me to understand how communication is in such a situation.

Rather long winded and probably no more helpful than before... but with my (NT) way of looking at things there's value in just talking to each other as well as communicating useful facts...!
 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Talitha:

I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.

For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary

But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Talitha:
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.

I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.

For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary

But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chelley:
[QUOTE]

Sometimes I think it would be helpful if we went round with cards in our pockets explaining oursleves a bit
Perhaps there could be a helpful Aspie card along similar lines!

...If you can be honest with each other and not take instant offence when the NT says, "that's enough on 18th century brickwork for today" ...

---

Very useful indeed. Thank you.

There is such a card, (National Autistic Society) and in fact I always carry it with me, though producing it tends to result in a sort of shock on the part of the person reading it because (I suspect) they have no idea at all what it might mean in terms of what I'm about to do. In fact, one recent occasion when I produced it in a church context resulted in me being assessed by the management to see if I was dangerous or otherwise some sort of threat, which was rather the opposite of the friendly communication I was hoping would result.
I'm still not sure what sort of 'dangerous' I might be - perhaps they feared I might rearrange their hymn books into a logical order in a particularly alarming way!?

I did like the comment about the 18th Century brickwork - and if someone said this I definitely wouldn't take offence. It would be very useful to know what was working and what wasn't.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

That is a link to the well regarded "AQ" test most often used by professionals when making a formal diagnosis.

It is not a diagnosis, nor should it be used as proof of anything at all. It is a useful "talking point", though
 

---

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chelley:
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!

---

Part of me was hoping that there's none of my peers who are more literal than I am and who would have thought "oh - I just grope someone?". More likely to end in court than church wedding, I fear

---

Actually, based on stuff Ken has written here in the past, I think the idea of a woman groping a bloke to alert him to the idea that she fancies him, is actually a strategy he has recommended!
(On the basis that men often don't notice subtle clues). I suspect he was exagerating to make his point, but just thought I'd throw that one in.

Fascinating discussion, and I too can agree with nearly all that list that Talitha posted.
 

---

Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Talitha:
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.

I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.

For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary

But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)

---

That could describe me. I tick most of those boxes, although I think I am fairly good at reading other people's body language.

Both my mother and my late father (both extroverts, and larger than life characters) always got extremely annoyed and frustrated at me for not knowing what to say to other people, and for not being more "outgoing" and confident in social situations - I remember that as a child I used to hate going to other kids' birthday parties, and playing all those ghastly games.
What made my social anxiety worse, was that I also used to have a bad stammer as a child/teenager. I am largely over this now, although occasionally it comes back in certain social situations.

I too have often been described as being "stand offish", "blunt", "abrupt", although I am not aware that I am. In fact, once in an appraisal at work, my manager wrote that he found me "very formal" in my dealings with him. (And I just thought I was behaving politely, and professionally!)

So glad to see that there are other people who have the same traits!
 

---

Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
On the Purg thread, Jengie Jon made some helpful suggestions about staying safe at night (in the context of discussion about how people with higher functioning autism may be more at risk than those who are lower functioning and always under the watchful eye of a responsible adult).

Some more useful info...I have to be able to manage to get to and from meetings, thanks to my work. If I venture out into the town centre alone, the worry is what happens if I mistake a ‘friendly group’ for a threatening one and end up in a situation where I have to make a decision about what to do – e.g. calling for help, defending myself etc. In a stressful situation, my decision-making is absolutely hopeless, so I’m far more likely to walk into a dangerous situation even without making eye contact, far more likely to make the wrong decisions about how to extract myself safely, and very likely indeed to be so badly affected that any ensuing police investigation ends up with me not being able to give evidence because I can’t cope very well with the police and court process, and can’t be trusted to remember what they looked like anyway. (Unfortunately I have had this experience).

I've lost track of how many evening meetings I've not been able to attend because there's no-one available to go with me. A recent one is a big church event in central London where I've had to find an alternative speaker as there's no way I can make it there and back at night on the train then taxi without worrying myself sick.

Tricky, isn't it? But I think a good example of how even very seemingly 'able' people can be very disadvantaged in a number of circumstances and how it can end up affecting our work.
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 
I have been thinking. Given that Small Dog decided she didn't like the gales last night and woke up every half an hour from 3.30am onwards, there's been plenty of opportunity to do some thinking, too.

On another thread on another one of these boards there is a discussion about deepening the relationship with God. I said "how do you know that you have deepened your relationship with God?" and the answer was, in essence, "you just do" .

Perhaps that's the problem. I've been thinking about the people in my life who clearly are 'friends' - they tolerate my way of looking at the world, they go with me to things, they talk to me about various things in their lives, they invite me to social events etc (though I do wonder what they have to put up with). But it doesn't ever "feel like" they are friends. Intellectually, yes...but in terms of "feeling?" - not in any different way to someone I've just met.

From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.

So, my question would be, is anyone able to describe the 'feeling' of a deepening friendship in a way likely to make sense to someone whose mind works more like a computer? I will accept "no idea" as a valid answer
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Feb 10 is an international day of prayer for people with autism and asperger's.

[ 31. January 2008, 17:29: Message edited by: leo ]
 

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Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 
Amber - I'll try to have a go at answering your question later, if I have time. Right now I just have a few minutes while supper is cooking, and wanted to share a small success.

I started a second part-time job in September - just two half days a week, in a big office with lots of part-timers. Up until now I've been using the hot-desk, or, if someone else had got it, I've been wandering round looking for a desk and computer whose owner wasn't likely to want them that day. But this week I finally got my own desk, which I'm pleased about.

Anyway, here's the small success: I was sitting working at my new desk, when the woman who sits next to the hot-desk came walking down the office. As she passed me, she stopped and said,
"Oh, you've moved. I'll miss you."

So I must have got something right! I'm feeling really pleased, and wanted to share it with all you lovely helpful people on this thread.

Lydia
 

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Posted by Liverpool fan (# 11424) on :
 
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.

I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
ADHD - possibly - have child that a paediatrician reckoned has mild ADHD: we can control it by diet and exercise.

I can identify with and work with the kids with ADHD when they drive everyone else mad. One of them took my piece of blutack off me this morning to play with, and was very surprised how soft I had got it, but I had been playing with it for over an hour. It's only me, my daughter and the kids with a diagnosis of ADHD who look knowingly at each other when we describe what happens to blu-tack when it goes liquid (it does if you play with it for long enough).

And I hate being stuck in an office all day every day with no excuse to get up and wander round every hour or so.
 

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Posted by mountainsnowtiger (# 11152) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by amber32002:
From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.

So, my question would be, is anyone able to describe the 'feeling' of a deepening friendship in a way likely to make sense to someone whose mind works more like a computer? I will accept "no idea" as a valid answer

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

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quote:

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From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Astro:


...However try this when you have some good news who do you want to share it with first - these people are probably friends.

When you have bad news who do you want to share it with - these people are probably good friends.

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Oooh, thanks Astro - that's an interesting question.

Good news - I'd share it with, er, everyone

Bad news? - oh dear, I'd end up sharing that with everyone too. Unless either was Confidential. Sharing Confidential information with others is not allowed, and there's specifics for it, which is fine because at least that way you know who's supposed to know what.

This isn't going too well as an analysis of small Ambers, is it....

Lydia, brilliant news re your colleague in the office.

Liverpool Fan - hope you get some answers to this, for your own peace of mind. Son has friends with ADHD. Wonderful people, very lively though.

Karl - yes, I have the Dilbert calendar on my desk and so many of the things he says and does have me thinking "yup, that sounds very familiar "
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

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If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

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If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.

I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lydia:
Amber

...1) We meet somewhere (occasionally or only once) and make small talk.
2) We frequent the same environment (workplace, church meeting, school playground etc) and we make small talk quite often. The small talk has some continuity from one meeting to the next (eg "You told me you were going to do X. How did it go?") This is being acquaintances.
3) When we are in the environment which we have in common, we often make a point of talking to each other, even if there are plenty of other peole to talk to. We take an interest in some aspects of each other's lives. This is being friends.
4) We meet by arrangement outside of the common environment. We tell each other some of the things that we don't tell just anybody. We help each other out with things sometimes (especially if we both have small kids). This is being good friends.
5) We meet as often as practicable depending on our lifestyles, locations etc. We tell each other all sorts of personal stuff. We are top of each other's list of someone to call upon for help (again, especially if we have small kids). This is being close friends.

At each level, it only counts if it's mutual. So, for example, if we sometimes arrange to meet up out of work, but it's only ever me that suggests it, then that means we're at (3), and although I'm trying to move it to (4) it isn't really getting there. ...


Lydia

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quote:

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Originally posted by amber32002:
But, if it's something that only applies if it's mutual, what if one friend is shy and doesn't like to make the suggestions but is always happy to follow the other person's suggestions? Wouldn't that still count as a friendship?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lydia:
...Yes, it might, if there were some other evidence that the shy one genuinely wanted the things the other one was suggesting. Or they might have an asymmetric mutuality where A is the one who initiates arrangements for meeting up, but B is the one who brings home made cake each time - a bit like those 5 love languages.

If, on the other hand, A is doing all the running and B just can't be bothered to suggest anything, and doesn't much care whether they see A or not, then the friendship isn't really working out.

Lydia

[ETA quote]

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Thanks once again. I've spent a fair bit of time trying to work out which friendships are in which category, and for once it's giving me a bit of security about knowing how to work that out.

My next task, I suppose, is to work out which subjects of conversation would fit into those categories of friendship. If I'm stood at a bus stop talking with people, I wouldn't be talking about anything more than the weather or whether the bus was late because that seems to be the tradition of public transport, (if people talk at all).

But how would other topics get introduced into that structure of friendship? I'm sensing that I've spent a lot of years not getting this right at all, e.g. getting stuck on talking about the same insignificant things rather than talking about things of greater significance to closer friends.

For example, bad news...
If the bus is cancelled, you might say that to anyone?

But if your great aunt was run over by a bus, there's clearly a difference in who you'd say this to..but which category of friend? Would it only be people you arrange to see elsewhere, and would it matter how long you'd known them for?

Goodness, this is complicated, isn't it. I may need another cup of tea...

Oddly, maybe this is why I find conversations with men easier to cope with. They don't seem to expect to talk about personal stuff at all - just cars, football, rugby, computers, gadgets, etc. Is there a big gender difference in these rules, I wonder?

[ 02. February 2008, 06:16: Message edited by: amber32002 ]
 

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Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by amber32002:
Thanks once again. I've spent a fair bit of time trying to work out which friendships are in which category, and for once it's giving me a bit of security about knowing how to work that out.

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I'm glad it helped. I thought the list of definitions might suit your way of thinking.

quote:

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My next task, I suppose, is to work out which subjects of conversation would fit into those categories of friendship. If I'm stood at a bus stop talking with people, I wouldn't be talking about anything more than the weather or whether the bus was late because that seems to be the tradition of public transport, (if people talk at all).

But how would other topics get introduced into that structure of friendship? I'm sensing that I've spent a lot of years not getting this right at all, e.g. getting stuck on talking about the same insignificant things rather than talking about things of greater significance to closer friends.

For example, bad news...
If the bus is cancelled, you might say that to anyone?

But if your great aunt was run over by a bus, there's clearly a difference in who you'd say this to..but which category of friend? Would it only be people you arrange to see elsewhere, and would it matter how long you'd known them for?

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quote:

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Oddly, maybe this is why I find conversations with men easier to cope with. They don't seem to expect to talk about personal stuff at all - just cars, football, rugby, computers, gadgets, etc. Is there a big gender difference in these rules, I wonder?

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quote:

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Goodness, this is complicated, isn't it. I may need another cup of tea...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Can anyone tell me if Aspergers is different from high functioning autism?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Can anyone tell me if Aspergers is different from high functioning autism? One of my sons was diagnosed as autistic when he was four. At first he was quite noticeably "odd" but as he got older he has managed to overcome his oddities so well that most people don't notice anything unusual about him.

We were told when he was diagnosed that it was classical or Kanner type autism, but I have to say that it seems just like Asperger's syndrome to me, from whatever I've read about it.

JtW.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.

I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.

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I think I might have. My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument.

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Ah, so we both have partners that reckon we have it.
 

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Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Back to London Underground stuff

I love this sound!


Max
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:
My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument.

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My husband does that but I'm afraid I just think he's rude. If he can hold down a complicated job I'm sure he could manage to look interested in an argument with me if he wanted to.
 

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Posted by Liverpool fan (# 11424) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

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If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
This has more to do with autism, but I found this video very inspiring:

J-Mac, "The Game of My Life"

M

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quote:

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Originally posted by amber32002:
Wonderful video.

Also try this one, the world-famous Temple Grandin, a lady with High Functioning Autism who is the world expert in animal behaviour, here talking in general terms about the disability

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEAhMEgGOQ

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Since it's 73 mins long, quick summary: Temple's lecture to parents and professionals about how best to bring up children with autism or Asperger's Syndrome, hilarious anecdotes from her own situation, insights into what life is like, plenty of easy science about the brain and what's different for those with autism in the way the brain is structured. Oh, and some faith things here and there. You can fast-forward by dragging the you-tube bar at the bottom of the video so you can watch it in bits. Practical, insightful, clear, and first-hand rather than some expert guessing what it must be like.
 

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Posted by Lydia (# 12161) on :
 
Amber,

Thank you so much for that link to the video of Temple Grandin. I watched the whole thing and finally feel I have an answer to the questions I've been asking here about the advantages of the autistic brain.

I'm friends with two families who are in the process of getting diagnoses for kids who may well be on the spectrum, so I'll be sending them the URL for this talk.

Lydia
 

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Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Sorry that link did not work for some folks, Pete. I think it might have had a time limit as it seemed to be an MSNBC news video. You are welcome to take it down if it doesn't play.

Mary
 

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Posted by amber32002 (# 11142) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lydia:
Amber,

Thank you so much for that link to the video of Temple Grandin. I watched the whole thing and finally feel I have an answer to the questions I've been asking here about the advantages of the autistic brain.

I'm friends with two families who are in the process of getting diagnoses for kids who may well be on the spectrum, so I'll be sending them the URL for this talk.

Lydia

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quote:

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Originally posted by Poppy:


I know that the youth leaders tried loads of different strategies to manage the behaviour but nothing worked and the young lad doesn't go to youth group any more.

There has to be a point when the safety of the majority overrides the needs of one child. Or maybe not. Maybe he should have been allowed to do what he wanted and maybe hurt one of the girls who is in a wheelchair and very fragile?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Daffy Duck:
I agree that there can be a point when a child has to be removed, but it should, perhaps, be the child causing the problem, not the autistic child. Better still remove the parents and their preconceived ideas, and let the children work it out,

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