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Source: (consider it) Thread: AS: The Outsiders: Asperger's, social anxiety, and related issues
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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Thanks, Chelley, though people are remarkably resistant to suggestions that we go to look at archive records for tithe maps [Smile] I did like the story about the bath.

quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!

Part of me was hoping that there's none of my peers who are more literal than I am and who would have thought "oh - I just grope someone?". More likely to end in court than church wedding, I fear [Big Grin]
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chelley

Ship's Old Boot
# 11322

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quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
Further ideas very welcome?

I'll have a go (and try and answer some of your questions)...

My first thought is that if I had been getting to know you in some real life place, rather than an internet place, I would be just as interested in trying to understand how the world and communication is to you - but I would have needed to find out as honestly and helpfully as you have been here, how it feels to be you. So, if I'd had a conversation with you and maybe wondered to myself why you weren't making eye contact with me (which as has been said an NT might interpret as you were bored with talking to me) it would be helpful to know that you just find it uncomfortable. Then I'd need to explain that with my way of communicating I find it very hard to catch what's being said withoutlooking at someone's face (eyes and mouth!) and I'm not trying to make you squirm! What all this needs is openness which I think is an important basis for friendship anyway.

Sometimes I think it would be helpful if we went round with cards in our pockets explaining oursleves a bit - mine (and there is actually a Coeliac card you can get!) would probably say... "I have a bowel condition so when I say 'no thankyou' to food you might offer me, I mean no! Yes, just one little biscuit will hurt and if you invite me round to dinner and I say 'no sauce and everything completely plain' then yes I mean it and a little bit of Soy for flavour will send me to the bathroom for the rest of the night! I am NOT a fussy eater but you try knowing what will happen if you eat the tiniest bit of gluten and see how careful you are!"

Perhaps there could be a helpful Aspie card along similar lines!

I was attempting to be more direct with the whole 'sensing sincerity' thing... so if someone repeatedly says 'no thanks' to an invitation to meet for coffee/go to a museum/have lunch (especially if they don't give what seems like a very good reason) then it's likely they're sticking at acquaintances. If they ask questions (such as those I might ask you if I met you) about you and seem willing to try and accommodate how things work for you, then that's a good sign of a potential friend. If you can be honest with each other and not take instant offence when the NT says, "that's enough on 18th century brickwork for today" or you say "can we walk along and talk for a bit because all this eye contact is freaking me out" then there's potential.

As to your specific questions: "how do we convey enthusiasm successfully (about meeting up)?" You need to say it but tell the other person if you can - "I might not seem enthusiastic, but I am!" And they do need to have some idea that you will communicate with words what they might communicate with gestures/body language/bubbling excitement! Unfortunately NT's are used to finding the latter more accurate from one another than the words said... so it might even be quite refreshing once they understand!

And as to "are we going to be bold enough to say 'oh heck, social occassions frighten me witless'..." then yes, the most helpful thing is to be bold enough to say it and then suggest an alternative so they don't think you're just blowing them off!
I think being honest and upfront about how things are to you - and also trying to get a sense of how things are for them is a very good start of real friendship. And the need to be open if you inadvertently offend each other would be useful too.

Sorry there are no fixed rules about length of phone conversation but I'd say that it's not a lot different than the general male tendency to do 'briefly functional' on the phone only and once you know that you don't get all in a state when they won't talk for hours. Once people realise they can understand.

It's hard for me to say more about your phone example because of the way I think and not having enough of an idea of how it comes across to you. With your example conversation I'd be listening to what they said (eg "my cat has just died" and then responding to that as best I can, "Oh no, I'm sorry, anything I can do to help?" - my answer to everything you see is "nice cup of tea?" [Big Grin] )
I suppose the thing is being able to switch off your own agenda for long enough to properly listen to and respond to what the other person is saying - and it's not only Aspies that can struggle with that... but I'm aware that it's harder for me to understand how communication is in such a situation.

Rather long winded and probably no more helpful than before... but with my (NT) way of looking at things there's value in just talking to each other as well as communicating useful facts...!

--------------------
"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"

Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who

Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:

I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.

For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary

But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)

I read that and thought "That's me!" I just about fit in with all of those. The only difference is the the last point about niche interests. Like you, I tend to go the other way, but that's because at some point in my 20s, I realised that this sort of thing does bore people stupid, so I moderated it a lot. I can still tend to do this after a few drinks though.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.

I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.

For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary

But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)

Apart from the face blindness thing and the writing fiction that could describe me! I would also add for the non-aspie traits -- I can do empathic listening well (or so my friends tell me) and will be the shoulder to cry on.

Reading these threads has been very interesting for me and I think has helped me to understand myself better. The eye contact thing was one of the criticisms I had from the diocesan assessors when they recommended against me going to Selection conference. I also noticed last night that my friend and I had sat next to each other in the pub not facing and that that was fine with me, possibly even easier than face to face.

Carys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
[QUOTE]

Sometimes I think it would be helpful if we went round with cards in our pockets explaining oursleves a bit
Perhaps there could be a helpful Aspie card along similar lines!

...If you can be honest with each other and not take instant offence when the NT says, "that's enough on 18th century brickwork for today" ...


Very useful indeed. Thank you.

There is such a card, (National Autistic Society) and in fact I always carry it with me, though producing it tends to result in a sort of shock on the part of the person reading it because (I suspect) they have no idea at all what it might mean in terms of what I'm about to do. In fact, one recent occasion when I produced it in a church context resulted in me being assessed by the management to see if I was dangerous or otherwise some sort of threat, which was rather the opposite of the friendly communication I was hoping would result. [Frown]
I'm still not sure what sort of 'dangerous' I might be - perhaps they feared I might rearrange their hymn books into a logical order in a particularly alarming way!?

I did like the comment about the 18th Century brickwork [Big Grin] - and if someone said this I definitely wouldn't take offence. It would be very useful to know what was working and what wasn't.

Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

That is a link to the well regarded "AQ" test most often used by professionals when making a formal diagnosis.

It is not a diagnosis, nor should it be used as proof of anything at all. It is a useful "talking point", though [Smile]

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Gracious rebel

Rainbow warrior
# 3523

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quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:

quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
And in terms of that whole minefield of relationships... I think ken's answer on the Purg thread is pretty spot on!!

Part of me was hoping that there's none of my peers who are more literal than I am and who would have thought "oh - I just grope someone?". More likely to end in court than church wedding, I fear [Big Grin]
Actually, based on stuff Ken has written here in the past, I think the idea of a woman groping a bloke to alert him to the idea that she fancies him, is actually a strategy he has recommended!
[Eek!] (On the basis that men often don't notice subtle clues). I suspect he was exagerating to make his point, but just thought I'd throw that one in.

Fascinating discussion, and I too can agree with nearly all that list that Talitha posted.

--------------------
Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website

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Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385

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quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:
A former boss once asked me if I had Asperger's. I said I didn't know.

I think I might be somewhere on the spectrum, although it's not that I have all the traits to a moderate extent - rather, I have some fairly strongly and others not at all or even the opposite.

For example:
I don't like large noisy social gatherings or strangers (is that just introversion? I guess they overlap)
I'm bad at social chit-chat, and usually find it boring
I probably don't make eye contact enough
I'm not very good at reading body language (and my own is probably mismatched to how I feel)
My voice and facial expression don't vary much (which can mean I don't appear interested in things even when I am)
I'm interested in numbers, patterns, grammar, and geeky things
I'm very bad at recognising faces (I scored 23% on the famous faces test linked above; in real life I rely heavily on cues like hair and clothes and especially location, which were all removed in the quiz)
People have described me as "blunt" or "brusque", even though I'm not sure what I do that makes them say that
I have a tendency to be pedantic and to use technical vocabulary

But:
I don't have a problem with non-literal language - I may even be better than average at understanding it (I was good at English Literature at school, as well as maths and science)
I enjoy wordplay, and delight in ambiguities which are unintentionally amusing
I enjoy reading and writing fiction
I don't go on at people about my niche interests (if anything I go too far the other way and don't mention them at all because I think people will find them boring)


That could describe me. I tick most of those boxes, although I think I am fairly good at reading other people's body language.

Both my mother and my late father (both extroverts, and larger than life characters) always got extremely annoyed and frustrated at me for not knowing what to say to other people, and for not being more "outgoing" and confident in social situations - I remember that as a child I used to hate going to other kids' birthday parties, and playing all those ghastly games.
What made my social anxiety worse, was that I also used to have a bad stammer as a child/teenager. I am largely over this now, although occasionally it comes back in certain social situations.

I too have often been described as being "stand offish", "blunt", "abrupt", although I am not aware that I am. In fact, once in an appraisal at work, my manager wrote that he found me "very formal" in my dealings with him. (And I just thought I was behaving politely, and professionally!)

So glad to see that there are other people who have the same traits!

--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)

Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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On the Purg thread, Jengie Jon made some helpful suggestions about staying safe at night (in the context of discussion about how people with higher functioning autism may be more at risk than those who are lower functioning and always under the watchful eye of a responsible adult).

Some more useful info...I have to be able to manage to get to and from meetings, thanks to my work. If I venture out into the town centre alone, the worry is what happens if I mistake a ‘friendly group’ for a threatening one and end up in a situation where I have to make a decision about what to do – e.g. calling for help, defending myself etc. In a stressful situation, my decision-making is absolutely hopeless, so I’m far more likely to walk into a dangerous situation even without making eye contact, far more likely to make the wrong decisions about how to extract myself safely, and very likely indeed to be so badly affected that any ensuing police investigation ends up with me not being able to give evidence because I can’t cope very well with the police and court process, and can’t be trusted to remember what they looked like anyway. (Unfortunately I have had this experience).

I've lost track of how many evening meetings I've not been able to attend because there's no-one available to go with me. A recent one is a big church event in central London where I've had to find an alternative speaker as there's no way I can make it there and back at night on the train then taxi without worrying myself sick.

Tricky, isn't it? But I think a good example of how even very seemingly 'able' people can be very disadvantaged in a number of circumstances and how it can end up affecting our work.

Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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I have been thinking. Given that Small Dog decided she didn't like the gales last night and woke up every half an hour from 3.30am onwards, there's been plenty of opportunity to do some thinking, too.

On another thread on another one of these boards there is a discussion about deepening the relationship with God. I said "how do you know that you have deepened your relationship with God?" and the answer was, in essence, "you just do" .

Perhaps that's the problem. I've been thinking about the people in my life who clearly are 'friends' - they tolerate my way of looking at the world, they go with me to things, they talk to me about various things in their lives, they invite me to social events etc (though I do wonder what they have to put up with). But it doesn't ever "feel like" they are friends. Intellectually, yes...but in terms of "feeling?" - not in any different way to someone I've just met.

From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.

So, my question would be, is anyone able to describe the 'feeling' of a deepening friendship in a way likely to make sense to someone whose mind works more like a computer? I will accept "no idea" as a valid answer [Smile]

Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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Feb 10 is an international day of prayer for people with autism and asperger's.

[ 31. January 2008, 17:29: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161

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Amber - I'll try to have a go at answering your question later, if I have time. Right now I just have a few minutes while supper is cooking, and wanted to share a small success.

I started a second part-time job in September - just two half days a week, in a big office with lots of part-timers. Up until now I've been using the hot-desk, or, if someone else had got it, I've been wandering round looking for a desk and computer whose owner wasn't likely to want them that day. But this week I finally got my own desk, which I'm pleased about.

Anyway, here's the small success: I was sitting working at my new desk, when the woman who sits next to the hot-desk came walking down the office. As she passed me, she stopped and said,
"Oh, you've moved. I'll miss you."

So I must have got something right! I'm feeling really pleased, and wanted to share it with all you lovely helpful people on this thread. [Yipee]

Lydia

--------------------
You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?

Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.

I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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ADHD - possibly - have child that a paediatrician reckoned has mild ADHD: we can control it by diet and exercise.

I can identify with and work with the kids with ADHD when they drive everyone else mad. One of them took my piece of blutack off me this morning to play with, and was very surprised how soft I had got it, but I had been playing with it for over an hour. It's only me, my daughter and the kids with a diagnosis of ADHD who look knowingly at each other when we describe what happens to blu-tack when it goes liquid (it does if you play with it for long enough).

And I hate being stuck in an office all day every day with no excuse to get up and wander round every hour or so.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.

So, my question would be, is anyone able to describe the 'feeling' of a deepening friendship in a way likely to make sense to someone whose mind works more like a computer? I will accept "no idea" as a valid answer [Smile]

For me, I would say that it involves trusting the person and feeling comfortable when I'm with them. We'll have known each other for a while and they will seem to have accepted me, so I feel comfortable to be myself when I'm with them, and I know that if I do something stupid or mess up somehow then they won't judge me for it or by it, but will keep on accepting me and will still see me as 'mountainsnowtiger', rather than as 'that woman who did that really stupid / goofy / irritating thing last time I saw her'. And the trust thing - my good friends are people who I believe accept me and respect me, so if I tell them something personal or important, they're people I believe won't abuse the fact that I'm placing trust in them - won't laugh at me or dismiss the importance of what I'm telling them or go off and gossip about me, because they're nice, good people that way and also because they respect me and the importance to me of the information I'm telling them.

Not sure if that helps or not at all, amber, but those are a couple of my initial thoughts on what being friends with somebody 'feels' like for me.

--------------------
Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

I don't have it, but I know a fair bit about it. Two of my four kids have it. The other two were diagnosed as having it at one point or another, but those diagnoses were incorrect.

There isn't any way to diagnose ADHD directly at this point. There may be some way in the future. But right now, ADHD is a rule-out diagnosis. First, you have to determine that the person really does have difficulty with directing or maintaining attention, with hyperactivity, and/or with impulsivity. This is usually done with a behavioral checklist. Then you have to determine that the attention problems, hyperactivity, or impulsivity are not caused by something else.

For example, imagine a child who has attention problems that prevent them from accomplishing anything at school or at home. If you went down the checklist, there might be enough boxes checked to say the child has ADHD. But there are lots of other things that interfere with a child's ability to pay attention! The most common is probably sleep deprivation. LOTS of children and adults diagnosed with ADHD are actually sleep deprived. Allergies, dental problems, other psychiatric disorders (such as generalized anxiety disorder), sensory impairments (e.g. difficulty hearing), seizure disorders, and probably 50 other things can cause enough problems with attention that the person can be "diagnosed" with ADHD from a checklist.

That's why it's important not to diagnose yourself or someone else based on a checklist on the Internet -- or even a checklist in the DSM-IV manual. Someone with persistent difficulties that look like ADHD should have a thorough evaluation to rule out the other things that can cause attention problems.

If it really is ADHD, you can learn lots of techniques for managing it. Medication can be part of that. "Life skills coaching" can be part -- learning specific techniques that help you avoid the difficulties the ADHD is causing you.

--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Thanks Josephine. I share a distrust for what an internet test says.

I reckon it has to do with sugar levels, myself. I can get a bit hyper with sugar sometimes.

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Aw! Bless 'im:
Today's Dilbert

He's one of us.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Astro
Shipmate
# 84

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quote:
From what I read there's supposed to be that sense that someone has entered into a different 'relationship state' with you, someone who isn't just "an acquaintance"? For me, I suspect that my brain only has one category of "Oh - a person! How lovely - I wonder if they'll be friends with me? Finding out could be scary, but let's try..." and it just never knows how to move on from that. There seems to be no 'feeling' of how-good-a-friendship-it-is, or instinctive knowledge of how my behaviour is supposed to be different because I've known them for longer.

I don't know if there is a feeling like feeling sick and feeling better but then I am a high systemizer.

However try this when you have some good news who do you want to share it with first - these people are probably friends.

When you have bad news who do you want to share it with - these people are probably good friends.

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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by Astro:


...However try this when you have some good news who do you want to share it with first - these people are probably friends.

When you have bad news who do you want to share it with - these people are probably good friends.

Oooh, thanks Astro - that's an interesting question.

Good news - I'd share it with, er, everyone [Hot and Hormonal]

Bad news? - oh dear, I'd end up sharing that with everyone too. Unless either was Confidential. Sharing Confidential information with others is not allowed, and there's specifics for it, which is fine because at least that way you know who's supposed to know what.

This isn't going too well as an analysis of small Ambers, is it.... [Big Grin]

Lydia, brilliant news re your colleague in the office. [Smile]

Liverpool Fan - hope you get some answers to this, for your own peace of mind. Son has friends with ADHD. Wonderful people, very lively though.

Karl - yes, I have the Dilbert calendar on my desk and so many of the things he says and does have me thinking "yup, that sounds very familiar [Biased] "

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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amber.
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# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".
Ah, I've heard this line of reasoning before...thinking....yes, I think I see what you mean? Again, it's sort of a society thing where we "expect" (for example) boys to sit very still and very quietly in classes, then are amazed and horrified when some of them want to move around or say things. Millions of years of being hunters...and all of a sudden we expect them to be scholars instead? So we drug them to get them to sit still and fit with our expectations?

Is that more or less it?

PS I don't know - I'm just trying to remember what was said in the papers?

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".
Uh, Ken? I'm not going to argue with you about what you do or don't have -- I don't know you, and it's none of my business anyway. But I'll tell you one thing: people with ADHD do not struggle because of "quite unexceptional behaviour." They struggle because their behavior is really, truly exceptional.

Not the individual behaviors -- people with ADHD, like people with AS, don't do things that other people don't do at least occasionally. But when the behavioral difficulties are pervasive, and when they interfere with the person's ability, not only to do what others want them to do (e.g., sit still, follow instructions), but with what they themselves want to do, and need to do, it's a problem.

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JoannaP
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quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.

I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.

I think I might have. My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument. I did some internet research, intending to disprove it, and was seriously freaked out by how accurately the sites about inattentive type ADHD in women described me and my experiences. All the websites I found insisted that one had to get properly diagnosed (if only to make sure one was not suffering from thyroid problems), so I saw my GP but he just told me that I did not have ADHD without letting me explain why I thought I might or anything, so I am not sure where to go from here.

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Lydia
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Amber

I share non-confidential news with practically everyone too. I come out very high on scores for extroversion, so I put it down to that. At present, I'm working on being a bit more discriminating, so that only some people get the whole story, and quite a few people get a brief digest, and people I don't really know very well don't get to hear about it at all. But I still find it hard not to answer literally when asked how I am.

I've been thinking about your question about how you know you're friends. Well, suppose we take the kind of relationship where the romantic "thing" is irrelevant - for example a friendship between heterosexual women. Here's how I think the stages progress:

1) We meet somewhere (occasionally or only once) and make small talk.
2) We frequent the same environment (workplace, church meeting, school playground etc) and we make small talk quite often. The small talk has some continuity from one meeting to the next (eg "You told me you were going to do X. How did it go?") This is being acquaintances.
3) When we are in the environment which we have in common, we often make a point of talking to each other, even if there are plenty of other peole to talk to. We take an interest in some aspects of each other's lives. This is being friends.
4) We meet by arrangement outside of the common environment. We tell each other some of the things that we don't tell just anybody. We help each other out with things sometimes (especially if we both have small kids). This is being good friends.
5) We meet as often as practicable depending on our lifestyles, locations etc. We tell each other all sorts of personal stuff. We are top of each other's list of someone to call upon for help (again, especially if we have small kids). This is being close friends.

At each level, it only counts if it's mutual. So, for example, if we sometimes arrange to meet up out of work, but it's only ever me that suggests it, then that means we're at (3), and although I'm trying to move it to (4) it isn't really getting there.

My personal experience is that I find it fairly easy to get as far as (2), mainly because I'm so extroverted. From (2) to (3) is a bit harder, but perfectly possible. I find it generally happens OK if I have either work or faith in common with someone, but I can't usually do it if the only thing we have in common is picking up kids from the same school, for example. The tricky bit for me is (3) to (4). I'd like to be better at spotting which (3) people are good prospects for moving on to (4) and I'd like to be better at making it happen. After that, if I do get to (4), I find that from (4) to (5) happens naturally over time.

Hope that helps, and thanks for your affirmation of what happened to me in the office.

Lydia

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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?

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amber.
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# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Amber

...1) We meet somewhere (occasionally or only once) and make small talk.
2) We frequent the same environment (workplace, church meeting, school playground etc) and we make small talk quite often. The small talk has some continuity from one meeting to the next (eg "You told me you were going to do X. How did it go?") This is being acquaintances.
3) When we are in the environment which we have in common, we often make a point of talking to each other, even if there are plenty of other peole to talk to. We take an interest in some aspects of each other's lives. This is being friends.
4) We meet by arrangement outside of the common environment. We tell each other some of the things that we don't tell just anybody. We help each other out with things sometimes (especially if we both have small kids). This is being good friends.
5) We meet as often as practicable depending on our lifestyles, locations etc. We tell each other all sorts of personal stuff. We are top of each other's list of someone to call upon for help (again, especially if we have small kids). This is being close friends.

At each level, it only counts if it's mutual. So, for example, if we sometimes arrange to meet up out of work, but it's only ever me that suggests it, then that means we're at (3), and although I'm trying to move it to (4) it isn't really getting there. ...


Lydia

Ah...I'd never have thought to categorise it like that, but it does help, yes.

But, if it's something that only applies if it's mutual, what if one friend is shy and doesn't like to make the suggestions but is always happy to follow the other person's suggestions? Wouldn't that still count as a friendship?

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Lydia
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quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
But, if it's something that only applies if it's mutual, what if one friend is shy and doesn't like to make the suggestions but is always happy to follow the other person's suggestions? Wouldn't that still count as a friendship?

Yes, it might, if there were some other evidence that the shy one genuinely wanted the things the other one was suggesting. Or they might have an asymmetric mutuality where A is the one who initiates arrangements for meeting up, but B is the one who brings home made cake each time - a bit like those 5 love languages.

If, on the other hand, A is doing all the running and B just can't be bothered to suggest anything, and doesn't much care whether they see A or not, then the friendship isn't really working out.

Lydia

[ETA quote]

[ 01. February 2008, 23:18: Message edited by: Lydia ]

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amber.
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# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
...Yes, it might, if there were some other evidence that the shy one genuinely wanted the things the other one was suggesting. Or they might have an asymmetric mutuality where A is the one who initiates arrangements for meeting up, but B is the one who brings home made cake each time - a bit like those 5 love languages.

If, on the other hand, A is doing all the running and B just can't be bothered to suggest anything, and doesn't much care whether they see A or not, then the friendship isn't really working out.

Lydia

[ETA quote]

Thanks once again. I've spent a fair bit of time trying to work out which friendships are in which category, and for once it's giving me a bit of security about knowing how to work that out.

My next task, I suppose, is to work out which subjects of conversation would fit into those categories of friendship. If I'm stood at a bus stop talking with people, I wouldn't be talking about anything more than the weather or whether the bus was late because that seems to be the tradition of public transport, (if people talk at all).

But how would other topics get introduced into that structure of friendship? I'm sensing that I've spent a lot of years not getting this right at all, e.g. getting stuck on talking about the same insignificant things rather than talking about things of greater significance to closer friends.

For example, bad news...
If the bus is cancelled, you might say that to anyone?

But if your great aunt was run over by a bus, there's clearly a difference in who you'd say this to..but which category of friend? Would it only be people you arrange to see elsewhere, and would it matter how long you'd known them for?

Goodness, this is complicated, isn't it. [Eek!] I may need another cup of tea...

Oddly, maybe this is why I find conversations with men easier to cope with. They don't seem to expect to talk about personal stuff at all - just cars, football, rugby, computers, gadgets, etc. Is there a big gender difference in these rules, I wonder?

[ 02. February 2008, 06:16: Message edited by: amber32002 ]

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Lydia
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quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
Thanks once again. I've spent a fair bit of time trying to work out which friendships are in which category, and for once it's giving me a bit of security about knowing how to work that out.

I'm glad it helped. I thought the list of definitions might suit your way of thinking. [Smile]

quote:
My next task, I suppose, is to work out which subjects of conversation would fit into those categories of friendship. If I'm stood at a bus stop talking with people, I wouldn't be talking about anything more than the weather or whether the bus was late because that seems to be the tradition of public transport, (if people talk at all).

But how would other topics get introduced into that structure of friendship? I'm sensing that I've spent a lot of years not getting this right at all, e.g. getting stuck on talking about the same insignificant things rather than talking about things of greater significance to closer friends.

For example, bad news...
If the bus is cancelled, you might say that to anyone?

But if your great aunt was run over by a bus, there's clearly a difference in who you'd say this to..but which category of friend? Would it only be people you arrange to see elsewhere, and would it matter how long you'd known them for?

I'm not very good at this bit of it. My tendency is to tell too much to too many people in too much detail. But I'd love to hear other shipmates' suggestions about it.

quote:
Oddly, maybe this is why I find conversations with men easier to cope with. They don't seem to expect to talk about personal stuff at all - just cars, football, rugby, computers, gadgets, etc. Is there a big gender difference in these rules, I wonder?

Yes I think it does make a difference, but it's mixed in with loads of other differences - culture, age, sexuality, context, asymmetries of authority, etc. Also, "the kind of information you choose to pay attention to" is one of the key parts of personality type, so that has an effect too.

For example, this morning I bumped into the vicar's wife while I was out shopping, so I said hello. She asked me how I feeling about not having the dog any more, especially at the weekends. Because I know she's a dog owner herself, I answered in more detail than I would have if the question had been mere politeness from someone who wasn't really into dogs.

quote:
Goodness, this is complicated, isn't it. [Eek!] I may need another cup of tea...

Yes it is very complicated, and I think we're both going to need an awful lot of cups of tea!

Lydia

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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
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So ultimately it's a question of a) correctly identifying the person you're talking with b) recalling their interests in things and c) tailoring the conversation to those things whilst bearing in mind the four possible depths of friendship.

Blimey, tis no wonder we aspies struggle with this level of complexity sometimes (or indeed often...).

Incidentally the big debate on autism and whether it is an illness or a diversity even got into New Scientist this week, which is talking about the fight between Autism Speaks and many Aspies/AS/Auties who don't like the way that website presents this neurodiversity at all.

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Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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Can anyone tell me if Aspergers is different from high functioning autism? One of my sons was diagnosed as autistic when he was four. At first he was quite noticeably "odd" but as he got older he has managed to overcome his oddities so well that most people don't notice anything unusual about him.

We were told when he was diagnosed that it was classical or Kanner type autism, but I have to say that it seems just like Asperger's syndrome to me, from whatever I've read about it.

JtW.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Can anyone tell me if Aspergers is different from high functioning autism?

It depends on who you ask. Seriously.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Can anyone tell me if Aspergers is different from high functioning autism? One of my sons was diagnosed as autistic when he was four. At first he was quite noticeably "odd" but as he got older he has managed to overcome his oddities so well that most people don't notice anything unusual about him.

We were told when he was diagnosed that it was classical or Kanner type autism, but I have to say that it seems just like Asperger's syndrome to me, from whatever I've read about it.

JtW.

I agree with Josephine - it does depend on which specialist you ask. Even the National Autistic Society admits they're fairly baffled. I personally think they're one and the same.
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Rosa Winkel

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? Or anyone who knows about it?

You see a friend once suddenly surprised me by saying that I had it, as I was playing with my ring constantly, and often do such things when I have too much energy or anxiety. Now, I live in Germany and cannot afford health insurance and can't look into it as a result.

I ask because I have done a few internet tests and I have come out quite strong. I am a bit sus about it all though. My friends are doubtful, though my girlfriend is convinced. I know I'm a bit fucked up (like we all are), but am not sure if I have it.

I think I might have. My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument.
Ah, so we both have partners that reckon we have it. [Paranoid]

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Max.
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# 5846

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Back to London Underground stuff [Razz]

I love this sound!


Max

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Arrietty

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# 45

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
My husband accused me of it when I was getting distracted by what I could see out of the window during an argument.

My husband does that but I'm afraid I just think he's rude. If he can hold down a complicated job I'm sure he could manage to look interested in an argument with me if he wanted to. [Snigger]

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Is there anyone here with ADHD? .

If I was in a school in the USA right now I would almost certainly be diagnosed as having it. My childhood behaviour fits the pattern in the DSM IV. Which is not the same thing as actually having it. I don't have it because there is no such thing to have. Its an unhelpful medicalisation of quite unexeptional behaviour. Not a "disease" or a "disorder" or a "syndrome".
That may or may not be true. What gets me though is that there are questions of whether I was hyper as a child. I was a boy! Of course I was scampering all over the place. That's what boys do.

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Leetle Masha

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This has more to do with autism, but I found this video very inspiring:

J-Mac, "The Game of My Life"

M

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
This has more to do with autism, but I found this video very inspiring:

J-Mac, "The Game of My Life"

M

"This video does not exist" - the message I got after waiting for a scroll through which took several minutes. Unless I hear from others that it does exist, I will delete the link by midnight EST.

PeteCanada
AS host

[ 08. February 2008, 02:28: Message edited by: PeteCanada ]

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Even more so than I was before

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Arrietty

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It's playing for me at the moment.

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

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Loveheart

Blue-scarved menace
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Works for me too

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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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Wonderful video.

Also try this one, the world-famous Temple Grandin, a lady with High Functioning Autism who is the world expert in animal behaviour, here talking in general terms about the disability

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEAhMEgGOQ

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amber.
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quote:
Originally posted by amber32002:
Wonderful video.

Also try this one, the world-famous Temple Grandin, a lady with High Functioning Autism who is the world expert in animal behaviour, here talking in general terms about the disability

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEAhMEgGOQ

Since it's 73 mins long, quick summary: Temple's lecture to parents and professionals about how best to bring up children with autism or Asperger's Syndrome, hilarious anecdotes from her own situation, insights into what life is like, plenty of easy science about the brain and what's different for those with autism in the way the brain is structured. Oh, and some faith things here and there. You can fast-forward by dragging the you-tube bar at the bottom of the video so you can watch it in bits. Practical, insightful, clear, and first-hand rather than some expert guessing what it must be like.
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Lydia
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Amber,

Thank you so much for that link to the video of Temple Grandin. I watched the whole thing and finally feel I have an answer to the questions I've been asking here about the advantages of the autistic brain. [Smile]

I'm friends with two families who are in the process of getting diagnoses for kids who may well be on the spectrum, so I'll be sending them the URL for this talk.

Lydia

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Leetle Masha

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Sorry that link did not work for some folks, Pete. I think it might have had a time limit as it seemed to be an MSNBC news video. You are welcome to take it down if it doesn't play.

Mary

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia:
Amber,

Thank you so much for that link to the video of Temple Grandin. I watched the whole thing and finally feel I have an answer to the questions I've been asking here about the advantages of the autistic brain. [Smile]

I'm friends with two families who are in the process of getting diagnoses for kids who may well be on the spectrum, so I'll be sending them the URL for this talk.

Lydia

Glad it was useful. It's a good positive example of how it can be a diversity rather than disability, with the right structure.

PS I had to laugh about the escalators. I'd never realised why I had such problems with the things - I'm always nearly falling off the end of them rather than stepping off gracefully. Never even realised it's a common factor in autistic spectrum individuals.

Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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Just wanted to share a bit of good news. Was up at Church House today and it looks like we're on track for getting funding for raising disability awareness for this form of autism for the CofE. Hooray! And apparently the National Autistic Sunday event was a success in raising the profile of how churches can respond to autism and disability issues.

Now what we need is some really good theology to work with that relates to this. That'll be the challenge. I'm no theologian, and the CofE senior adviser on Mission and Public Affairs was rather puzzling over it it in our meeting. Anyone have any ideas? If that's a question for a different board, which one would be best?

Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Daffy Duck
Shipmate
# 13488

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quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:


I know that the youth leaders tried loads of different strategies to manage the behaviour but nothing worked and the young lad doesn't go to youth group any more.

There has to be a point when the safety of the majority overrides the needs of one child. Or maybe not. Maybe he should have been allowed to do what he wanted and maybe hurt one of the girls who is in a wheelchair and very fragile?

What has been written above shows a complete lack of understanding of handling difficult children. It is so very often senn as the other child's problem, not my child, who has tried to do everything right. All too often, as in this case, it would seem that the parent(s) involved failed totally to have any real understanding of dealing with children, in general.

I agree that there can be a point when a child has to be removed, but it should, perhaps, be the child causing the problem, not the autistic child. Better still remove the parents and their preconceived ideas, and let the children work it out,

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Arohanui

Jayne( in aroha, hope and Faith ) nz
mailto:enyaj@xtra.co.nz

Posts: 259 | From: Gore, NZ | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Poppy

Ship's dancing cat
# 2000

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If this young man comes back to youth group I shall pass your words of wisdom onto the youth leaders. He is enjoying sitting with his Dad in the main service which is pretty structured and it suits him. The wildly creative and unpredicable youth group didn't.

The youth leaders could have left the teenagers to sort it out by themselves. We have a lot of growing lads who are quite capable of looking after themselves and the girls are no pushover either. The physically fragile teenager in the wheelchair with communication difficulties could have been seriously hurt in the crossfire but if you have a laissez faire attitude to managing behaviour then you have to expect casualties.

As I've known the young lady in the wheelchair since she was a year old I wouldn't want to take the risk but I'm just a risk adverse old softy...

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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...

Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lydia
Shipmate
# 12161

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quote:
Originally posted by Daffy Duck:
I agree that there can be a point when a child has to be removed, but it should, perhaps, be the child causing the problem, not the autistic child. Better still remove the parents and their preconceived ideas, and let the children work it out,

I entirely agree that in general it should usually be the child causing the problem who should be removed, if removal becomes necessary. However, the way I read Poppy's original post, in this particular case, the autistic child WAS the child causing the problem - unless you think Poppy's child was problematic in not wanting to be hit??? (Just to make it beyond misunderstanding, I am not trying to imply that the autistic child would usually be the problematic one, just that it seems to have been that way this time.)

Lydia

[ 17. April 2008, 19:43: Message edited by: Lydia ]

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You mean I'm supposed to think of something interesting to write in a sig?

Posts: 204 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged



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