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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Minimum Service?
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Spong's comment on the Seeker Service thread has hit a long term puzzle for me. So many experimental services are just old churchy culture in a new dress. That is we seem to lack imagination to go beyond the familiar with respect to worship. I have been to two many hymn sandwiches where the organ has been replaced by a praise band and this is thought to be revolutionary.
So I am going to be very Reformed approach here, but I hope in a way that is open to all, that is to ask what is the essentials.
So what are the essentials for a service (act of worship) to happen?
I am guessing that the Reformed tradition would say something like:
- several people (i.e. more than two)
- use of the bible - e.g. readings, meditation based on it
- prayer of adoration
with a possibility of it not feeling complete without a psalm and the Lord's prayer.
But is it? Do we need a Bible reading, is this essential to centre our worship, could a statue of a saint do instead or a painting? What of prayer? Do we need Adoration, Confession, Intercession and Thanksgiving or can we just have those suitable for that act of worship? Could a service have no public prayers only silence? Does it matter how many people turn up? How important is fellowship? How important is singing and music?
If we were to try to create cultural suitable services what is essential and what are we free to alter?
Jengie
[ 20. December 2009, 06:21: Message edited by: Think² ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Do we need a Bible reading, is this essential to centre our worship, could a statue of a saint do instead or a painting?
I think that I have some initial thoughts milling around in my mind and shall perhaps post once I've had a chance to process them and regurgitate them in a coherent manner. However, for now, I just want to point out the irony that the above was suggested by somebody from the Reform tradition and that my initial reaction, as somebody from the Orthodox tradition, was a small twinge of horror. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) This amuses me.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I was deliberately trying to be provocative without saying our way was right. As far as the Reformed tradition goes, no we could not replace the use of the Bible with such items, but I am never sure how much that is our biblio-centric* nature and how much it is general Christian.
Jengie
*Biblio-centric is an odd thing in Reformed tradition, you can do almost anything provided you can demonstrate that you have taken it somehow from the Bible.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
When I put together worship services which are not masses, I tend to follow this structure:
Worship - usually about 20-30minutes of worship songs, if a priest is available then confessions heard.
Teaching - A short Bible Reading and then a talk
Adoration - A time to worship Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, often with some quiet worship songs and if a priest is available Benediction at the end.
I know it's a very Catholic centred structure but I think that could also be adapted for a Reformed structure.
Worship and teaching would obviously be the same but instead of adoration, maybe healing ministry or prayer ministry at the end with a "soft ending" (ie. You are free to stay or go)
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I was deliberately trying to be provocative without saying our way was right. As far as the Reformed tradition goes, no we could not replace the use of the Bible with such items, but I am never sure how much that is our biblio-centric* nature and how much it is general Christian.
If it brings any clarity, the same is true for us. No part of Tradition can ever replace another. All are essential, and I don't think I have ever been to or found in any book an Orthodox service where the spoken text does not comprise significant chunks of Scripture in addition to the prayers and hymns which are littered with phrases or imagery borrowed from Scripture.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
That really is the problem, isn't it? That any 'fresh expression' or 'experimental church' is only ever going to be church decked out in a new dress. The situation is further compounded by the fact that the vast majority of people that turn up are already 'churchy' people. If, on the other hand, you had the vast majority being non-Christians with little or no experience of church before, I always feel that its similar to lying to them. It's like inviting people in for a party and saying 'Now isn't this fun? Bet it wasn't what you expected! Next week, we shall return to the normal form, cos now we've got ya!'
None of it ever rings true for me to be honest. I always feel it reflects a deep seated fear about the value and power of the church tradition, that it is somehow wrong and inappropriate for the 'modern world'. Incidentally (if you haven't already guessed) I don't think it is - I think the church's tradition is good enough and powerful enough to connect with the modern world without having to jump through silly hoops and water itself down for the masses.
I'm hugely skeptical about it in relation to the Eucharist and Anglican churches too. We say it's the central act of the church, but here we are trying to get punters in the door by having cafe church, or interactive sermons in a pub with 99% church folk present or church with painting by numbers. Looking at it from the outside it looks like a church that is having an enormous crisis of identity. I was once asked by a non Christian, who had been to a 'fresh expressions church' if the church had actually forgotten what it was for or what it was all about!!
There are a number of things missing in all of these approaches, as I see it.
1: the importance of education, which the church consistently ignores and when it does do it, it enjoys doing it badly.
2: The church has little or no understanding of being counter cultural, but would much rather be a mirror image of the earthly kingdom it is in, rather than the heavenly kingdom for which it strives
3: Maybe Christianity really isn't very popular. Maybe people don't like being told about a message of sinfulness and self sacrificing forgiveness, and putting it in a new dress with crappy makeup to cover up what the world sees as ugliness aint gonna change that.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Much of this possible discussion depends on an understanding of the word 'service'
There are many different types of 'service' but at first go I would say that an essential ingredient is 'prayer' Prayer is a lifting up of the heart and mind closer to God.Each one of us in an individual and we can do this on our own or with others,in a church or indeed anywhere else.
To nourish our prayer we have indeed the Word of God. All liturgical services of the Catholic church include a reading from Sacred Scripture.
By way of example a normal Sunday Mass would include a reading from the Old Testament,a Psalm, a reading from the New Testament,plus the solemn reading of a passage from one of the Gospels.
Non liturgical services do not have to include a reading from Sacred Scripture,but a person or persons who are praying alone or separately can be inspired by a painting or statue as well as by the printed Word of God.
Singing is not essential but often helps us,as do pictures and statues,focus our attention on our lifting up of heart and mind towards God.
Think of the importance of the hymnody,particularly in 'Reformed' worship.Since hymns have been allowed,just think how many people have found real inspiration from the rythm and words of famous hymns,which like statues and paintings have been created by hand of man,but in which some people are helped to glimpse God's glory.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Why would people who don't believe want to go to a church service in the first place? Why would we expect them to? I know it is currently fashionable to say that "belonging" comes before "believing" but it seems the wrong way round to me. Don't turn them away if they come, but it seems silly to overturn the service and worship of the church to suti people who probaby aren't there.
And if they are it's likely to be because they like the aesthetic experience of church - so a touchy-feely seekers-service is going to put them off. The most successful service in terms of attracting non-believers is probably choral evensong in a cathedral or college chapel where you can sit at a pew at the back and slope off before anyone talks to you personally. If you really don;t believe, or if you aren't sure why you are there the chances are that being put under pressure by being talked to personally is the last thing you want.
For what its worth the CofE does have a "minimum" service plan, the "Service of the Word" liturgy. Which I strongly suspect we nicked from Presbyterians of some stripe. It sort of makes everything optional:
quote:
A Service of the Word
Preparation
- The minister welcomes the people with the Greeting.
- Authorized Prayers of Penitence may be used here or in the Prayers.
- The Venite, Kyries, Gloria, a hymn, song, or a set of responses may be used.
(" Points are indicated for some of these, but if occasion requires they may occur elsewhere.") - The Collect is said either here or in the Prayers.
The Liturgy of the Word
This includes
- readings (or a reading) from Holy Scripture
- a psalm, or, if occasion demands, a scriptural song
- a sermon ("The term 'sermon' includes less formal exposition, the use of drama, interviews, discussion, audio-visuals and the insertion of hymns or other sections of the service between parts of the sermon. The sermon may come after one of the readings, or before or after the prayers, and may be omitted")
- an authorized Creed, or, if occasion demands, an authorized Affirmation of Faith. ("The sermon, and a Creed or authorized Affirmation of Faith may be omitted except at the principal service on Sundays and Principal Holy Days.")
Prayers
These include
- intercessions and thanksgivings
- the Lord's Prayer
Conclusion
The service concludes with a blessing, dismissal or other liturgical ending.
[ 05. October 2009, 15:14: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
For what its worth the CofE does have a "minimum" service plan, the "Service of the Word" liturgy. Which I strongly suspect we nicked from Presbyterians of some stripe. It sort of makes everything optional...
You're right. It's immensely flexible with only a few elements that are compulsory, so much so that I was able to demonstrate on these boards in the past how, with the two exceptions of a greeting and the Lord's Prayer being compulsory, the structure of A Service of the Word allows exactly for the the service of Exposition and Benediction, especially the conclusion which seems almost specifically tailored for it. Yet I suspect that this wasn't the intention of the compilers. You can get away with just about anything under the title "A Service of the Word".
quote:
A Service of the Word
Preparation
- The minister welcomes the people with the Greeting.
- Authorized Prayers of Penitence may be used here or in the Prayers.
- The Venite, Kyries, Gloria, a hymn, song, or a set of responses may be used.
(" Points are indicated for some of these, but if occasion requires they may occur elsewhere.") - The Collect is said either here or in the Prayers.
The Liturgy of the Word
This includes
- readings (or a reading) from Holy Scripture
- a psalm, or, if occasion demands, a scriptural song
- a sermon ("The term 'sermon' includes less formal exposition, the use of drama, interviews, discussion, audio-visuals and the insertion of hymns or other sections of the service between parts of the sermon. The sermon may come after one of the readings, or before or after the prayers, and may be omitted")
- an authorized Creed, or, if occasion demands, an authorized Affirmation of Faith. ("The sermon, and a Creed or authorized Affirmation of Faith may be omitted except at the principal service on Sundays and Principal Holy Days.")
Prayers
These include
- intercessions and thanksgivings
- the Lord's Prayer
Conclusion
The service concludes with a blessing, dismissal or other liturgical ending.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
None of it ever rings true for me to be honest. I always feel it reflects a deep seated fear about the value and power of the church tradition, that it is somehow wrong and inappropriate for the 'modern world'. Incidentally (if you haven't already guessed) I don't think it is - I think the church's tradition is good enough and powerful enough to connect with the modern world without having to jump through silly hoops and water itself down for the masses.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I'll add this to the long list of Things I Wish I'd Said.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Seconded!
And what ken said, too.
It may well be appropriate in a particular church's situation to have minimalist services of some sort, but anyone (with no experience or even thought of God) who might wander into such a service is still going to come across alien ideas, words, and expressions. There seems no getting away from this, given that the religion of this country at least is based on Sex, Sport and Shopping (though not necessarily in that order.....)!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So I am going to be very Reformed approach here, but I hope in a way that is open to all, that is to ask what is the essentials.
So what are the essentials for a service (act of worship) to happen?
I am guessing that the Reformed tradition would say something like:
- several people (i.e. more than two)
- use of the bible - e.g. readings, meditation based on it
- prayer of adoration
with a possibility of it not feeling complete without a psalm and the Lord's prayer.
But is it? Do we need a Bible reading, is this essential to centre our worship, could a statue of a saint do instead or a painting? What of prayer? Do we need Adoration, Confession, Intercession and Thanksgiving or can we just have those suitable for that act of worship? Could a service have no public prayers only silence? Does it matter how many people turn up? How important is fellowship? How important is singing and music?
I assume that by "worship" you mean public worship, in which case I think that the "Christian minyan" (2 or 3 gathered in Christ's name) is required. Two thoughts came to my mind here:
First, the traditional Reformed "notes" of the church are the right proclamation of the Word and the right administration of the sacraments. It seems that, at least from a Reformed view, the first note at least must be present for an activity to be identifiable as the worship of the church. (From a Reformed perspective, the second note cannot be present with out the first note -- the sacraments cannot be rightly administered apart from the proclamation of the Word.)
Second, Westminster (if anyone pays attention to the Westminster Assembly anymore) says these things are the parts of "ordinary worship": Prayer with thanksgiving and "for all things lawful," the reading of Scripture and "sound preaching" (and obedience!), the singing of psalms and the due administration and reception of the sacraments. FWIW.
And I'll second (third?) what ken and fletcher said.
[ 05. October 2009, 18:55: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
- several people (i.e. more than two)
- use of the bible - e.g. readings, meditation based on it
- prayer of adoration
Why more than two? As Nick Tamen has pointed out Our Lord 'said two or three'.
I've been to a number of services (generally morning prayer) with only two people. Similarly, when a friend and I pray compline together is that a service? I would say the office is a service, however many people are present.
Interestingly the service I put together for St Francis day last night fitted a Service of the Word although I wasn't consciously using that, though the confession was a fairly late addition and the Lord's prayer wasn't mentioned in the order of service but I finished the intercessions with it.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
To turn really serious - this might get forcibly moved to Purgatory as a result.
"What is the chief end of man?"
"To glorify God and to enjoy him for ever".
"Oh come, let us worship and fall down: and kneel before the Lord our Maker".
"Come. Now is the time to worship".
Three thoughts on this:-
1. We are about God. People may be wary of him, but strangers do not draw near to him unless they have some sort of hunger to find him. We are also specifically Christians, not theists. Any seeker service needs to enable Mr, Mrs or Miss Jones to meet the master. Culture that gets in the way of that is a bad thing. Culture that helps that is a good thing.
2. Services are not just about teaching. They are about worship. Teaching, proclamation is very important and produces a response. However, it isn't that unfamiliar to people. Worship is. So the barrier fresh expressions need to concentrate on, is finding ways those who are not used to worshipping may fall down and kneel before the Lord their Maker, whether metaphorically or physically.
3. In the Bible worship is a verb not a noun. This is much more visible in the translation policy of the AV than more modern translations which use 'worship' to translate two similar but different words. I deeply wish the phrase 'act of worship' could be abolished. It may be in the Education Act 1944. It may be much loved by the BBC. But there is no such thing. It implies we perform something, then parcel it up and send it up to heaven at the end of the service.
We worship. We bow our knees; we fall down; we sing unto the Lord; we come before his presence with thanksgiving; we show ourselves glad in him with psalms. This is something we do, not something we talk about. It is a direct engagement between out hearts and our heavenly Father.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
For what its worth the CofE does have a "minimum" service plan, the "Service of the Word" liturgy. Which I strongly suspect we nicked from Presbyterians of some stripe.
Isn't it just Morning Prayer with the fancy names changed and some bits made optional? Looks to me like we nicked it from Cranmer.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
No it isn't. On my annual duty return, where I have to lost how many times I have preached, done funerals etc., it defines 'Service of the Word' as MP, EP, All-Age without Communion, Pram Servuces etc. as examples.
The outline on p. 24 of CV, unlike MP, does not have versicles/responses nor canticles and has the collect at the beginning, not the end.
That is unlike both Cranmer's and CW's MO.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The outline on p. 24 of CV, unlike MP, does not have versicles/responses nor canticles and has the collect at the beginning, not the end.
That is unlike both Cranmer's and CW's MO.
Ken's outline includes 'intercessions and thanksgivings.' Is this not what the versicles and responses are? The collect is also optionally 'with the prayers'. And as for canticles, ken's outline includes 'scriptural songs' which sound like canticles to me.
However, I have obviously never been to such a thing so I'm sure you're right.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
You could make a Service of the Word look a lot like Morning Prayer; equally you could make it completely unrecognisable as a service of Morning Prayer. IIRC the initial way the authorised CWDP was under Service of the Word provisions so in that sense it was Morning Prayer (and Evening, and Midday and Compline...)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Service of the Word - from memory
- Opening Sentences
- Welcome (optional)
- Hymn
- Prayers of Adoration and confession
- Assurance of pardon
- First Bible reading
- theme introduction/children's address (optional)
- Hymn/Psalm
- Second Bible Reading
- Third Bible reading
- Hymn/Psalm
- Sermon
- Hymn (optional)
- Prayer of Intercession and Thanksgiving
- Lord's prayer
- Offertory (optional)
- hymn
- Benediction
You will notice I have not specified which bible reading comes where. That is because the key text is used first and that may or may not be from the gospel. Where I have specified hymn/psalm this will be the associated psalm from the lectionary and may be spoken or sung (not necessarily metrical if it is sung) and other metrical psalms may be used instead of the hymns.
I can not do the communion from memory simply because it is more complex.
However that is the formal set out. A more informal one might look like:
- Opening sentences
- Hymns (at least four)
- Prayer (Adoration & Thanksgiving, confession and Intercession)
- Lord's prayer
- Bible readings (at least one, preferably two or more)
- Proclamation (sermon, meditation, playlet)
- benediction and Grace
- Order should serve the proclamation of the Word.
Choruses (sung twice may be substituted for hymns).
However these are both what is usual, my question is not what is usual but what is minimal requirements. My experience tends to say that tradition accrues elaboration as time goes by. So I naturally assume that these are more elaborate than is strictly necessary.
Three people is only me being cautious, the technical level is two but Reformed traditions specifies then one ordained and one lay! I tend to say that it requires three people of which one needs to be lay.
Jengie
p.s. Calvin actual created a "protestant mass", the main difference seems to be that the table was placed in the body of the church and the congregation sat around it. A practice still carried out in some parts of Scotland.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
The OP asks what makes up a "minimum service". I take a brief service most weekday mornings (and a longer one on Sunday, but that's not minimum). Sometimes, no-one is in chapel (well, I am, obviously) but we don't know how many people are tuned in to the telly.
Fifteen minutes is made up thus:
1. Introduction, "Hello, I'm Foaming, service here every day, RC mass Wednesday, communion Sunday, catch us on Channel 8, etc".
2. Preparatory prayer, often the Collect for Purity (Almighty God, to whom all hearts are open), sometimes ex tempore.
3. Two Great Commandments, tell viewers that I bet they keep 'em but I have problems with #2, so please nod along with me while we pray (various forms of confession).
4. Declaration of forgiveness
5. Scripture reading (just 1 usually).
6. Thought for the morning based on the reading.
7. Intercessory prayer.
8. Lord's Prayer.
9. Blessing
No singing at these "minimum" services. They're as structured as they are so that RCs/Anglican/Orthodox patients feel comfortable, with sufficient informality built in (like what I wear, polo shirt and chinos) not to frighten the UCA, Lutherans and folk from similar, more enlightened, ![[Smile]](smile.gif) wings of Christ's church.
Isn't Compline a sort of minimum service in the evening?
FD
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Yes, many of the current orders for 'Night Prayer' based on Compline pretty much follow the guideline you've given FD, although there would often be a Psalm at the start and the Nunc Dimmittis would often still be used at the end, so it would be a bit more elaborate.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
several people (i.e. more than two)
use of the bible - e.g. readings, meditation based on it
prayer of adoration
Curiously enough, I had this same conversation "for real" only yesterday. I'm with Jengie on this (though I agree with Carys that you only need two people). I think you do need Scripture as this is, after all, Christian worship rather than a vaguely theistic ritual.
In the dim distant past (well, about 1992) my local parish church wanted to make their evening service more of a "seeker service" but still recognisably Anglican and legal according to the canons. This was still in the days of ASB. It's amazing how much you don't have to include - and then you can fill the spaces with other things!
[ 07. October 2009, 15:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I'm interested that Jengie and, I think, some others have put forward a prayer of adoration as the "necessary" minimum prayer. Perhaps it's the Presbyterian in me, but I would think of confession as part of a minimum. Calvin noted at the beginning of the Institutes that knowledge of God and knowledge of self are inextricably linked, so I come from a tradition that holds that adoration (acknowledging the goodness/holiness/majesty/sovereignty of God) leads directly to confession (acknowledging human sinfulness/falling short of the glory of God).
Besides, confession leads to the proclamation of the Gospel -- forgiveness of sins.
I realize that in other traditions confession may be optional as part of worship on the Lord's Day, but I guess I'm just too Presbyterian in that regard -- it always seems incomplete to me if we don't confess up front. I would include it as a minimum requirement.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Perhaps it's the Presbyterian in me, but I would think of confession as part of a minimum.
I always associate general confession together with Anglicanism! It seems to be a fixed rule of CofE liturgy that confession is the entry ritual into church. Its very often the first liturgical thing we do together after the greeting and maybe the first hymn.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I always associate general confession together with Anglicanism! It seems to be a fixed rule of CofE liturgy that confession is the entry ritual into church. Its very often the first liturgical thing we do together after the greeting and maybe the first hymn.
Interesting. The American Prayer Book provides for an optional pre-Eucharist penitential order and starts with the Collect for Purity and the Decalogue (in Rite I only, and also optional), but puts the general confession between the Prayers of the People and the Offertory. I'll admit, that placement never has made sense to me.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I always associate general confession together with Anglicanism! It seems to be a fixed rule of CofE liturgy that confession is the entry ritual into church. Its very often the first liturgical thing we do together after the greeting and maybe the first hymn.
Interesting. The American Prayer Book provides for an optional pre-Eucharist penitential order and starts with the Collect for Purity and the Decalogue (in Rite I only, and also optional), but puts the general confession between the Prayers of the People and the Offertory. I'll admit, that placement never has made sense to me.
This comes after the Liturgy of the Word. The idea is that confession and a desire for repentence and amendment of life is a proper response to having heard the Word of God.
I, too, associate the general confession with Anglicanism. The general confession in its current position in the modern Roman rite of the mass is a fairly recent development, it having grown from the preparation of the priest and ministers, which was done quietly during the introit. I believe there was such a confession before communion in bygone days but was it actually part of the rite or just popular custom? By contrast, the CofE has had a general confession in most of its regular public services for centuries.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Nick Tamen
Let me tell you why I chose adoration rather than confession. It is purely and utterly Reformed reasoning. Adoration centres on God, confession tends to centre human attention on their relationship to God and their unworthiness, while adoration centres on the worthiness of God.
In Reformed tradition we worship God, simply because God is worth adoring, not needs adoration but is worthy of it.
Equally we have an ambivalence about sin, it is true that we never could hope of ourselves to be worthy to praise God, but it is by his own action made possible. Confession does not put us right with God, God has already done that, it just reassures us of the case. That is without going into the trouble of predestinarianism and how to make sense of confession in that situation.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Interesting. The American Prayer Book provides for an optional pre-Eucharist penitential order and starts with the Collect for Purity and the Decalogue (in Rite I only, and also optional), but puts the general confession between the Prayers of the People and the Offertory. I'll admit, that placement never has made sense to me.
It's the same placement as in the 1928 BCP and the 1662 BCP (and Common Worship Order Two).
I'd be inclined to say it's there because that's the shape we're used to, although Michael Astley provides a better reason why.
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
...So what are the essentials for a service (act of worship) to happen?
several people (i.e. more than two)....
I really don't think even this is necessary. I know a nun who lives alone in a skete (a small monastery). Every day she is going to the chapel there and praying through each of the services, morning, night, and in between, feast days, and regular seasons. Many people come and go there; some stay a day, or a week, or a month, but except for these constantly changing pilgrims, she is by herself there in the woods. And she prays for the world, you and I. There are others like her, I'm sure.
I have started Reader's services alone at church, and been glad also when someone else came in. But I would have continued had no one else been around, same as I pray alone at home. At church it is better, in fact, as it it seems more obvious that the saints and angels are all around.
My husband asked me one time when I got home from a service that he suspected would be poorly attended if many were there. I told him there were thousands upon thousands.
CuppaT
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
In Reformed tradition we worship God, simply because God is worth adoring, not needs adoration but is worthy of it.
Is that not just Christianity?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Not too the same extent. Reformed Tradition is God-centric to the extreme. God is everything. That is why we tend towards predestinarianism, its the focus on what God does.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
This comes after the Liturgy of the Word. The idea is that confession and a desire for repentence and amendment of life is a proper response to having heard the Word of God.
Thanks. Had I been pressed, this would have been my guess.
quote:
I, too, associate the general confession with Anglicanism. The general confession in its current position in the modern Roman rite of the mass is a fairly recent development, it having grown from the preparation of the priest and ministers, which was done quietly during the introit.
This is precisely the same reason that Calvin and Knox put the confession at the start of the service.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Nick Tamen
Let me tell you why I chose adoration rather than confession. It is purely and utterly Reformed reasoning. Adoration centres on God, confession tends to centre human attention on their relationship to God and their unworthiness, while adoration centres on the worthiness of God.
In Reformed tradition we worship God, simply because God is worth adoring, not needs adoration but is worthy of it.
I agree with this. (I also agree that this is basic Christianity, Reformed focus on the sovereignty of God notwithstanding.) But I also think that this is an incomplete Reformed understanding. It's not supported by Calvin or Knox, who both began the Service with confession.
In Reformed understanding, at least from my study and in my experience, adoration and confession are two sides of the same coin. One cannot properly adore God without acknowledging how we fall short. In other words, if we don't realize and acknowledge our own sinful natures, then we aren't really recognizing just who God is. One cannot (metaphorically) enter the presence of God without being aware of one's own sinfulness. One cannot prepare to hear the Word without confessing ones sinfulness and being assured (again) of God's forgiveness. We confess our sins confident at the outset of forgiveness, but we confess them nonetheless.
That is the Reformed tradition as I experience it. And in my experience on this side of the pond, it's the Presbyterians (well, along with the RCs) who have the rep for always beginning worship with a confession and declaration of pardon.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
If we want to venture into more provocative territory (which may be outside the scope of this particular forum, actually): Why do we assume that worship is an effective avenue for evangelism? Not only that, but how do we "feed the sheep" already in the fold in a meaningful way when we're systematically neglecting them in favor of the seekers on the outside? Isn't the idea to be "salt and light" in the world in a relational way that intrigues others and leads them into our faith communities to see what this Christianity thing is all about? I sometimes get into trouble with my peers for saying this, but IMHO the worship service is not at all where I would seat the thrust of my church's outreach; not at all.
Anyway...back to the OP, and worship mechanics itself: I think the simplest way to break down a worship service is into two parts: gathering and sending. You create "sacred space," inviting people to gather within to worship; invoke God's presence and blessing on the gathering; then provide them with Word (and Sacrament)and an opportunity to pray as a group; then you ritually send them back out into the world, strengthened and enlightened (one hopes).
The Compline was mentioned as a model minimalist service. I'd agree; or the Noon Prayer, or even the short-form worship for individuals and families in many of our traditions' breviaries.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I suppose I should be honest, my take on evangelism isn't "Lets have simpler services and the punters will come rolling in" In my understanding that won't happen.
Rather evangelism is a process, and it involves many stages, part of that process is experiencing worship. That is along with teaching, fellowship and other forms of evangelism.
People new to faith, just like infants new to food, need something more adapted to their tastes at the time. After all a Christian is someone who worships and finds meaning through that, so to have just the other forms of evangelism is rather selling the wrappings without the centre. I would maintain that even though we may worship alone, worship is primarily learnt in community.
So what is the essense of public? What of worship should we make sure is present for the person on taking that journey to faith? What cannot be compromised on or we are not allowing them to have experience what it is?
Jengie
[ 07. October 2009, 19:20: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Spong
Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
You could make a Service of the Word look a lot like Morning Prayer; equally you could make it completely unrecognisable as a service of Morning Prayer. IIRC the initial way the authorised CWDP was under Service of the Word provisions so in that sense it was Morning Prayer (and Evening, and Midday and Compline...)
It still is. Daily Prayer, Morning and Evening Prayer on Sundays, etc etc don't have separate authorisation; they are all covered by the single authorisation for Serivce of the Word.
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Spong
The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
The OP seems to conflate "essential" and "minimum." To me, they are different things. "Minimum" implies "the least we can get away with." Therefore baptism can be done with a minimum three drops of water. There's a reductionism in that which makes me uncomfortable... I suppose it's in opposition to the liturgical trend of "enlarging the sign" and using lots of splashy water for baptism, for example.
OTOH "essential" more properly focuses on core values in worship. What is essential should be "enlarged" and done well.
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
This has come up for our church when designing our alternative service. We always make sure that there is scripture read or performed as a drama, and space to pray. Not everyone participate in everything though, with some missing the prayer space or scripture or both through choice. They still talk about it as church though...
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I think very little is "essential".
Something Scriptual somewhere. I'd hesitate to say a reading as as a young thing I was regularly in free churches where there wasn't an actual reading (but tons of bible refs in the sermon). I *prefer* a reading but I wouldn't say that what vineyard et al do *isn't* a service.
I like there to be prayer too but again in the Vineyard services there wasn't "prayers" as such but often a brief prayer before the sermon and maybe a blessing at the end. A chance to be "prayed for" at the end but not a specific slot for generic prayer for all or supplication.
I guess for me then it would simply draw down to worship of some description by more than one person. That could be in song or prayer or something else. Not that the minimum is desirable but having been in a variety of traditions I think very little is *essential*.
As for the distinction between service and a couple of friends meeting for prayer that becomes rather fuzzy in my mind. 2 people meeting up to read through the office or extempore prayer doesn't scream "service" to me.
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Spong
Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518
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Posted
This gets quite complicated when you think about it. Following on from Emma Louise's point, when does private prayer/devotion become a service? Not necessarily just because there are two people there, it seems to me; it can just be a devotional duet.
On the other hand, although my own church requires me to include certain things in a service, I'd want to resist any idea that they have to be there for a Christian service to take place at all. In fact, given that the CofE believes that the structure of a Service of the Word is sufficent to maintain the Anglican distinctiveness of the service, that implies that the boundaries of where service shades off into non-service are a long way off.
I want to say that a service is any gathering designed to open the participants to God and to enable them to respond, but I'm not sure whether that sound I hear is my woolly liberal brains falling out of my too-wide-open mind...
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Spong
The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
When I was at theological college, our prayers on Friday took the form of meditation. Sometimes that meant silence start to finish. Was it a service?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
When I was at theological college, our prayers on Friday took the form of meditation. Sometimes that meant silence start to finish. Was it a service?
Well, the quakers would say that it was!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well not entirely, was it a gathered silence ? I.e. did you have the sense of being in shared worship ? (Best explanation of the term I can come up with off hand.)
[ 11. October 2009, 22:13: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I think I see what you mean, Think-squared, and it would seem easier (if that's the right word) to 'be together' in silent prayer if there is something to focus on e.g. an icon, the Blessed Sacrament etc.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Guess it depends what you are used to, it is not what we normally do. Thouh there are usually flowers in the middle of the room and on a fairly regualr basis one of advices and queries is read.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, yes - I appreciate that such things are by no means on everyone's radar. I'm afraid I have a bit of a butterfly mind, and need something to focus on, but I can see that a candle or some flowers could be equally helpful.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Does the following illustration I have heard help.
There was once a young man fairly knew to Quakers, who was not sure when to give ministry (i.e. stand up and say something). One meeting he kept getting the urge but being new and unsure of himself refrained from doing so. Eventually the old timer next too him got up and gave ministry. At the end he turned to thank the old timer, whose response was "Next time say it yourself."
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I think the intention was certainly that the silence be a time of shared worship. It would be worth noting that we gathered in chapel as we normally would (collegiate-style stalls and cross and candles on the altar). I would class it as a service personally, but I think it would be inadequate as the only kind of worship and I think it would be inadequate as Sunday worship.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I have been pondering the idea of 'minimum services' since this thread started, because for me the whole concept doesn’t ‘smell’ right.
Thinking about it, I think this is because it seems to chip at away at the idea that there can be a minimum standard below which the worship of the Living God ceases. I don’t think this is so.
Take away the words and the silence praises God. Take away the decoration and the building worships God. Take away the building and the open air praises God.
Even if you took away all of the people, whatever was left would still be worshiping as all created things do. What we really want to know is whether there is a minimum standard for a person or people to worship. And beyond having a contrite heart I’m not sure that there is.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Does the concept also possibly suggest that we want to do our worship as simply and quickly as possible, rather than offering a substantial chunk of time (and possibly effort, too) to God?
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Spong
Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Does the following illustration I have heard help.
There was once a young man fairly knew to Quakers, who was not sure when to give ministry (i.e. stand up and say something). One meeting he kept getting the urge but being new and unsure of himself refrained from doing so. Eventually the old timer next too him got up and gave ministry. At the end he turned to thank the old timer, whose response was "Next time say it yourself."
Brilliant! Likely to appear in a sermon near here any time soon...
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Spong
The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams
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