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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What makes for a Christian?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Strange question, but I know that, across the boards, there are people with views and ideas that they draw from their Christianity but which are fundamentally opposed to each other. I reckon there are few if any shipmates with whom I couldn't find a point of significant difference.
And in terms of action, there are also wide ( and incompatible ) variations - how we should behave, what the actions of a "Christian" would be.
All of which means that trying to get a definition of what a Christian is in terms of belief or action seems impossible. So how can we do it? Is it possible at all?
[ 16. December 2010, 12:10: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
There's quite a few who would say that, since you asked that question, you are clearly not A Real Christian. After all, you have uncertainty and that is not allowed.
I tend to the other end of the spectrum. We don't really know. All we can do is try to express an approximation and then try to live to the best of our ability as indicated by that approximation.
And, since we don't really know, we can't be too dismissive of what someone else thinks or does, since, if he is sincere, he carries some element of The Truth.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
...All of which means that trying to get a definition of what a Christian is in terms of belief or action seems impossible. So how can we do it? Is it possible at all?
That's an easy one:
A Christian is one who can honestly state:
quote:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Sharkshooter, who gets to define exactly what the words and phrases in the creed mean?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
The Church Fathers did that, IF, nearly two millennia ago.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
The Church Fathers did that, IF, nearly two millennia ago.
True, but the creed they defined wasn't the one quoted by sharkshooter. The Nicene, not the Apostles', Creed is one of the defining marks of the Christian, and even then we can't make up our minds on it (filioque, anyone?).
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
SS: but you KNOW that prewritten creeds and prayers are not allowed. Then there's that business about "catholic" and "saints"
Say it from your heart in "weejus" form.
Are you Born Again?
More sewriously, is a Christian known by his words or by his works?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
The Church Fathers did that, IF, nearly two millennia ago.
True, but the creed they defined wasn't the one quoted by sharkshooter. The Nicene, not the Apostles', Creed is one of the defining marks of the Christian, and even then we can't make up our minds on it (filioque, anyone?).
I don't have a problem with the Nicene creed either, but it seems a bit wordy for me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) So, how about, either one or the other, either with or without the filioque?
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
A Christian is someone who self-identifies as such, and who seeks to follow the teachings of Christ.
As far as I'm concerned, everything else is just details. Including the definitions of words in that paragraph.
But then, I don't believe that what you believe matters half as much as how that belief inspires you to live your life.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Strange question, but I know that, across the boards, there are people with views and ideas that they draw from their Christianity but which are fundamentally opposed to each other. I reckon there are few if any shipmates with whom I couldn't find a point of significant difference.
And in terms of action, there are also wide ( and incompatible ) variations - how we should behave, what the actions of a "Christian" would be.
All of which means that trying to get a definition of what a Christian is in terms of belief or action seems impossible. So how can we do it? Is it possible at all?
The love of God through Jesus Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit impressed upon the soul and expressed in the life.
And while you can certainly test the fruits of a person, only they know what is going on internally. So in a sense, you can't tell.
Guess who's been spending too much quality time with Mr. Wesley lately?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I'm not sure the attempt to corner the "Christian" brand is worth anything.
Exactly the same arguments go on about what is a socialist, or a true conservative. Even vegetarian is a disputed term.
The attempt to make Christain = Saved Person or Good Person just devalues language as CS Lewis pointed out, when he drew the comparison with Gentlemen which started as an eimpirical statement but morphed into a value statement or opinion. It's pointless.
The only real issue are where it interacts with the law. For example JW's attempts to get exemption from military service as "Christian" ministers.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I'm not sure the attempt to corner the "Christian" brand is worth anything.
It's worth something when someone brings up the crusades, or a more recent spat of ethnic cleansing, and you're trying to explain how killing a zillion people doesn't exactly look like following Christ, and can't because to try to define "Christianity" is apparently only the business of scary fundamentalists.
Again, maybe I've been spending too much time with John Wesley lately, but I'm beginning to think limp-wristed "tolerance" isn't a Christian virtue. Should we jettison the notion of discipleship as well because someone might get offended?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I'm all in favour of a person's faith showing itself in how they lead their life. Really I am. Whoop-de-doo. Put out more flags. All that.
But when it becomes a defining characteristic of the faith, I begin to worry. What about people who, because of extreme physical, mental or emotional impairment, can't be do-ers of the faith? Are they to be consigned to the outer darkness, as well as the inner darkness many already experience?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
A response to Horseman Bree: A person's words may indicate that he or she aspires to be a Christian. The person's actions may indicate that success has not yet been achieved. (This is most of us.) Is a specific individual a Christian? In general, only God knows for sure.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
limp-wristed "tolerance"
Somehow I suspect that may be an indivisible phrase in your vocabulary.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
quote:
limp-wristed "tolerance"
Somehow I suspect that may be an indivisible phrase in your vocabulary.
No, it isn't, actually. It's just an unhealthy extreme of tolerance. Hence the scare quotes.
[ 19. July 2010, 16:21: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm all in favour of a person's faith showing itself in how they lead their life. Really I am. Whoop-de-doo. Put out more flags. All that.
But when it becomes a defining characteristic of the faith, I begin to worry. What about people who, because of extreme physical, mental or emotional impairment, can't be do-ers of the faith? Are they to be consigned to the outer darkness, as well as the inner darkness many already experience?
a) Prayer and worship are outworkings of faith. All can participate in those things, no matter what their level of impairment.
b) We shouldn't assume an inner darkness exists for many with extreme impairment. On the contrary, when studies have been done, even those with extreme impairment of IQ, communication or otherwise have shown a rich and beautiful inner life and a deep spirituality. To the astonishment of the researchers. Our expectation that great difference = horrible suffering is a society one, not often a reality. Though of course some people (impaired or otherwise) really do suffer.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
I cling to my sig.! I don't agree with CSL on all points, but that's a good one. There is such a thing as too much certainty, especially when applied to the infinite and essentially unknowable. How can we have God, and therefore Christianity, taped, tied down and absolutely covered? He and it are bigger than we are, and some (a good deal of) uncertainty and doubt are IMHO, appropriate.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Ćbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm all in favour of a person's faith showing itself in how they lead their life. Really I am. Whoop-de-doo. Put out more flags. All that.
But when it becomes a defining characteristic of the faith, I begin to worry. What about people who, because of extreme physical, mental or emotional impairment, can't be do-ers of the faith? Are they to be consigned to the outer darkness, as well as the inner darkness many already experience?
Are you saying that the Crusades were merely the result of "extreme physical, mental or emotional impairment." Isn't that a bit harsh to those who are so impaired?
Practically, I think it's perfectly reasonable, even loving, to consider where people are coming from and adjust accordingly. That's not the same thing as saying that Christianity means "anything goes and has God's sanction as long as you 'claim the name.'"
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Are you saying that the Crusades were merely the result of "extreme physical, mental or emotional impairment." Isn't that a bit harsh to those who are so impaired?
How in the name of everything that has a bottom do you get that from what I said? I was talking about those who are impaired from doing anything very much. I wouldn't have thought that believing that Muslims should be slaughtered wholesale really counts as any kind of impairment, unless medical science has taken a weird sideways step and nobody sent me the memo.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The problem with the creed as a defining factor is that, even within one church, there will be varying understandings of the meanings of the words. So being able to honestly state it, while important, is not definitive. All it really does ( and all it was intended to do ) is rule out some doctrines as non-Christian.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
A Christian is someone who self-identifies as such, and who seeks to follow the teachings of Christ.[\QB][\QUOTE]
So there is no defining feature of a Christin, other than the fact that someone chooses to call themselves that? "Seeking to follow the teachings of Christ" is critical, but what does that mean? The Nazis could have claimed they were doing that.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QB]But then, I don't believe that what you believe matters half as much as how that belief inspires you to live your life.
Which brings us back to the works question.
If the defining features are "faith" - in the sense of belief however expressed - then it becomes too nebulous to mean anything, and it cannot challenge, because the meaning and understanding are defined by ourselves.
If the defining features are "works" - even if works inspired by faith - then there are people who would not consider themselves Christian, whose personal belief inspires them to good works too.
And one Christians belief may put them as a peace protested, being confronted by another Christian whose faith has led them to the police force. We can find such difference in our country, but if we look internationally, there are peoples whose indigenous expression of their faith may be even more challenging.
And yet if it is not clarified, then surely it means nothing? For me to say I am a Christian is meaningless if that is purely self-defined. To say I am a Green Party member means something, to say I am an Archer means something - in the first case it is an expression of my beliefs, and in the second it is something I do practically that defines me as such. But being a Christian - what does that mean?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
I would argue that a Christian is a person for whome Christ is someone to emulate.
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
...Virgin Mary...
Is that 'virgin' as the Isaiah prophecy said in Hebrew (young woman)? Or is it the 'virgin' that the Greek translation equates to 'someone who hasn't had sex'? Could be important.
I for a long time held the opinion that a Christian was someone who could say the creed without crossing their fingers. Then I started doing theology properly (I stopped doing it properly a while ago) and realised that the creed was the beginning of the debate rather than the end. Just like saying 'it says in the bible...' is never the end of a debate either.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Are you saying that the Crusades were merely the result of "extreme physical, mental or emotional impairment." Isn't that a bit harsh to those who are so impaired?
How in the name of everything that has a bottom do you get that from what I said? I was talking about those who are impaired from doing anything very much. I wouldn't have thought that believing that Muslims should be slaughtered wholesale really counts as any kind of impairment, unless medical science has taken a weird sideways step and nobody sent me the memo.
As I said, if you're dealing with a clear case of impairment, then as a Christian you see what they can do instead of saying "You're not good enough!"
I just don't see how that refutes my argument that there is an external component to Christianity. External standards are always adjustable in extreme situations, but there's still a norm.
It starts from an inward state of grace, and extends into the life insofar as the person is able to express that. IME, even severely disabled people are capable of expressing themselves. Why treat them like they're incapacitated from any sort of Christian work?
Everyone is capable of something while they yet live. To say otherwise is to dehumanize the disabled.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Everyone is capable of something while they yet live. To say otherwise is to dehumanize the disabled.
Coma? Persistent vegetative state?
Seriously. Because if you're going to make the stuff that you do essential and necessary to being called a Christian, then you have to account for those people too.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
A Christian is someone who self-identifies as such, and who seeks to follow the teachings of Christ.
So there is no defining feature of a Christin, other than the fact that someone chooses to call themselves that? "Seeking to follow the teachings of Christ" is critical, but what does that mean? The Nazis could have claimed they were doing that.
I am deliberately drawing the definition as wide as possible in order to avoid excluding anyone who should not be excluded. My policy is, and has always been, that I would rather answer to God for including someone who should have been kept out than for excluding someone who should have been welcomed in.
And basically, if someone claims to be Christian who the fuck am I to say they're not?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But then, I don't believe that what you believe matters half as much as how that belief inspires you to live your life.
Which brings us back to the works question.
If the defining features are "faith" - in the sense of belief however expressed - then it becomes too nebulous to mean anything, and it cannot challenge, because the meaning and understanding are defined by ourselves.
Apparently you think religion must challenge the believer. Why is that?
quote:
If the defining features are "works" - even if works inspired by faith - then there are people who would not consider themselves Christian, whose personal belief inspires them to good works too.
And good for them . But I'm not going to insist that someone is Christian if they say they're not any more than I'm going to insist they aren't even if they say they are.
quote:
And one Christians belief may put them as a peace protested, being confronted by another Christian whose faith has led them to the police force. We can find such difference in our country, but if we look internationally, there are peoples whose indigenous expression of their faith may be even more challenging.
Absolutely! I don't see that as a problem - everyone has the right to interpret the faith ther own way.
quote:
And yet if it is not clarified, then surely it means nothing? For me to say I am a Christian is meaningless if that is purely self-defined. To say I am a Green Party member means something, to say I am an Archer means something - in the first case it is an expression of my beliefs, and in the second it is something I do practically that defines me as such. But being a Christian - what does that mean?
It means you follow Christ. Why does it need to mean more?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
God? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
No, that's too simple for smart alecs. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Everyone is capable of something while they yet live. To say otherwise is to dehumanize the disabled.
Coma? Persistent vegetative state?
Seriously. Because if you're going to make the stuff that you do essential and necessary to being called a Christian, then you have to account for those people too.
I think those qualify as extreme and exceptional cases where allowances can be made. I think for most people you don't have to go that far.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
And just to add, it is originally an inward thing, which is why I said on a certain level you can't tell who is or who isn't. If a person had a tragic accident or was obviously mentally ill, then I'd have to take that into consideration as something external to who the person actually was (though in some cases this does get tricky.) I would never say that God couldn't act on someone if they were generally incapacitated.
It's just that for people who are able to claim that they are Christian vocally with some understanding, there should be some expectation that there should be "fruits." If not, what are they actually following?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
My initial thought is to say that a Christian is someone who has been baptized. Holes could be poked in this definition, but it's my starting point.
Do we get a different take on the question if we consider "how is the word Christian used?" instead of "how do I define Christian?"
This thread gives examples of the range of meanings given to the word. (I'm reading Joel Hoffmann's And God Said on Biblical translation and he has a lot to say about how the meaning(s) of a word are determined from the contexts in which it is used.)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
My initial thought is to say that a Christian is someone who has been baptized. Holes could be poked in this definition, but it's my starting point.
Stalin was baptised. The Salvation Army are not.
You can't define a faith by something that is done to you. You can define it by either a core belief or a core action that you do.
I need to go to work now and can't access the ship their, but have a couple of thoughts on this subject I want to post when I come back.
I know that sounds like I'm really up myself and you lot probably don't give a monkeys about my thoughts on the subject, but I wanted to put a 'place holder' in the thread I can come back to this evening.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
A Christian is someone who believes they are a Christian - no one else is to judge otherwise.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Everyone is capable of something while they yet live. To say otherwise is to dehumanize the disabled.
Coma? Persistent vegetative state?
Seriously. Because if you're going to make the stuff that you do essential and necessary to being called a Christian, then you have to account for those people too.
I think those qualify as extreme and exceptional cases where allowances can be made. I think for most people you don't have to go that far.
I hate exceptions to rules. They give me an irritating niggly feeling at the back of my head. But the main thing now then is, who gets to make the excpetions and allowances?
Which kind of brings us back to what Sir Pellinore, Boogie et al said.
(Boogie, you're quite right. In the hospital where I work, when people self-define as Christian, nobody - least of all the chaplain - has the right to go and tell them they're not. And I think that's a very useful bottom line.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
A Christian is someone who believes they are a Christian - no one else is to judge otherwise.
If I believe I am a horse, no one else is to judge.
The only difference between your comment and mine is that there is a physical difference that can be seen to prove I am not a horse - just delusional.
On the other hand, if I were to say I am a six foot 2 blond 25 year-old Adonis, all but 3 or 4 people on the boards would not have evidence to prove otherwise. This is the comparison with your comment.
So, where am I going with this? Someone who knows a person well, will "know" whether they are a Christian, in the sense that "by their fruits you shall know them".
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I don't agree - only God knows our real attitudes and intentions. I have known some very convincing people who turned out to be Sociopaths.
If people are pretending to be Christian that is also a matter only for themselves to judge.
Nope, I stick by what I said - only the person who claims it and God really know a person's heart.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
Why do you think I used scare quotes around the word know? Because, one who doesn't live a live which demonstrates Christlikeness yet calls himself a Christian will raise doubts in those around him.
Personally, I will not call someone a non-Christian if they confess to be a Christian, but I will decide for myself (and keep it to myself unless asked) whether their beliefs and actions are indicative of Christian beliefs and actions.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
So, where am I going with this? Someone who knows a person well, will "know" whether they are a Christian, in the sense that "by their fruits you shall know them".
This quotation from Matthew 7 is often brought out at times like this. Unfortunately it's often used quite out of context - Jesus was specifically talking about people who claim to be prophets, not people who claim to be Christians. There may well be arguments about the "fruit" that faith bears in one's life, but if there are such arguments, this isn't one of them.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I said myself that it is ultimately God's call not mine. I just think that there are certain responsibilities and obligations that go along with that.
If someone drinks themself stupid and beats their spouse every night, and then calls themself "Christian"...and this is their witness to Christ...
I suppose in that case at least I'd have some grounds to call them on it.
And yeah, I think it's obvious that you don't walk up to someone who's lying on a hospital bed and tell them they're damned. It's common sense that pastoral issues trump theological issues. And yes, every rule is going to have exceptions for extreme circumstances (and I think a coma counts as an extreme circumstance.) That doesn't bother me much.
But in the calm logic of Purgatory, I think there are certain responsibilities that go along with the name, and don't want to see that diluted to the point where Christianity is an objectively meaningless word.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
So, where am I going with this? Someone who knows a person well, will "know" whether they are a Christian, in the sense that "by their fruits you shall know them".
This quotation from Matthew 7 is often brought out at times like this. Unfortunately it's often used quite out of context - Jesus was specifically talking about people who claim to be prophets, not people who claim to be Christians. There may well be arguments about the "fruit" that faith bears in one's life, but if there are such arguments, this isn't one of them.
Good call, though looking it up, I see in the very next passage: quote:
21 ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” 23Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”
Claiming Jesus as one's "Lord" doesn't seem to be sufficient. Doing the will of the Father is necessary.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
I think Jesus' parables of the Net and the Wheat and Tares address this. We in the church really don't know who is an authentic Christian and who is not. My personal observation --- based on Jesus' principle that "[one] knows them by their fruits" --- is that there are some church people who are probably not Christians, and there are some outside the Church who clearly seem to be.
It's not up for us to make the judgment. It's left for God to make. Isn't that the point of the two parables?
If one who professes to be a Christian lives a scandalous life, there is just cause for church discipline. If one who professes to be a Christian espouses a theology that is antithetical to orthodox belief, I think that's a bit murkier --- does being a Christian require that that one has to have all his/her doctrine straight? Does being an Arian or an adoptionist, for example, automatically presuppose that one isn't a Christian --- even if he or she displays the fruits of the Spirit?
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
If you have faith, won't it affect how you live?
It's not about works as in setting up a soup kitchen, it's works as in appreciation for God and compassion for others. That will naturally show in ways within your own interests, abilities, and resources.
Some might be motivated by that appreciation and compassion to set up a soup kitchen, and some might set up a soup kitchen for entirely other reasons, and some might be motivated to pray or write a book instead of setting up a soup kitchen.
But can you have appreciation for God and compassion for others and be a back-stabber, spread vicious gossip, refuse to forgive, be constantly jealous, vengeful about any wrongs done to you, +have a sour disposition daily?
Any of us can have a bad mood or a selfish or thoughtless moment, but the woman who is known as
"that bitter woman" is showing persistent ungodly fruit no matter what else is going on in her life - nursing home resident or nursing home manager, occasional choir member or music director.
It's not about how much you can do compared with a more able bodied person - even between two able bodied people there are differences of talent and opportunity - it's about who you are becoming, and that shows in how you daily treat people and God. (But avoid superficial tests - "he didn't say grace before eating, he's not a Christian"?)
The utterly uncommunicative aren't doing anything visible in relating to God or others, so you have no way to know what is their attitude towards God or people. But so what? Why do we need to label someone in a coma "Christian" or "non-C"? Surely we are not going to treat them less compassionately because of one or the other label?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
'place holder'
A chap called Ninian Smart said that religion (let alone Christianity couldn’t really be defined without excluding some that should be included and including some that shouldn’t. Any definition of religion has to be legally watertight because religions can claim tax exemption and no one want s a knitting circle claiming to be a religion. So, by extension, any definition of Christianity has to be equally watertight.
Smart eventually said that religions contain the seven following elements:
1. Doctrinal
2. Mythological
3. Ethical
4. Ritual
5. Experiential
6. Institutional
7. Material (added in his 1998 text)
Whilst it is clear that Christianity ticks all those boxes, they can be amended to apply to only Christianity.
1. The doctrines of the church
2. The biblical myths
3. the explicitly Christian ethics as represented in the bible and tradition
4. Christian rituals as practiced by the church
5. the experiences of actually doing something explicitly Christian; pray, go to church etc.
6. church institution
7. the material aspects of Christianity, sacraments, etc.
If this is right then a Christian is someone who engages with these elements, just like a religious person is someone who engages with Smart’s original list.
It also leaves room for dialogue as each of these elements are vague and can be internally debated, but must be present for an internal debate. Someone outside of these elements can engage of course, but as an outsider.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I would agree that a real answer is not for us to judge - that is not the point. The point is to try and understand what it might mean to be a Christian, what features may make this a reasonable thing for a person to claim. Just like my claim to be a horse can be shown to not be true ( or maybe it is true ), what sort of questions or expectations would justify this claim.
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
But in the calm logic of Purgatory, I think there are certain responsibilities that go along with the name, and don't want to see that diluted to the point where Christianity is an objectively meaningless word.
This is important - if the word means whatever people want it to ( i.e. if anyone can make a claim to be a Christian without any demonstrable issues ) then it means nothing. If everyone is a Christian then no-one is.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If you have faith, won't it affect how you live? [/QUOTE]
Yes. And so there should be some sense of being able to see that. Surely?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
A Christian is someone who believes they are a Christian - no one else is to judge otherwise.
My understanding is otherwise...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
From my rather fading memory (No, I wasn't there at the time ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) the only belief the Early Christians had to subscribe to was the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord. Everything else - the Rite of Initiation - followed.
I have no problem with this. I think the Orthodox Church would still essentially be following in this context.
We in the West have been getting our nappies into knots about Confessions of Faith - some extremely legalistic like the Westminster Confession - and often reactions against the increasingly centralized power and worldly misdeeds of the Vatican.
Christianity is not, repeat not, the fiefdom of 'brilliant' theologians or clergy or 'professional church members' - who can all be right off course and right pains in the ass - but of all the faithful. This is something very evident in countries like Greece where the average citizen actually knows Church History and Essential Belief and can't be bamboozled by people from GTS or weird televangelists.
Christianity is not a WASP middle class possession.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
More sewriously, is a Christian known by his words or by his works?
Thought he was known by his bumper stickers...
Have been contemplating a thread on a more general question of a similar nature.
In order for a definition to have meaning, it must have some rigidity. Even Marvin's rather open standard, is a standard.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
If we use existing threads such as Non-Christians on the Ship? and
Former Christians, ever miss anything? as a mine for how people use not-Christian (thereby getting a mirror image of Christian), it seems to me that people usually cease to identify as Christian when they cease identifying with the beliefs. Which might mean a definition of the word "Christian" based on usage would focus on beliefs.
For those of you who believe Christian is defined by actions in the world, how do you distinguish between people doing those actions who are Christian, and those doing those same actions whoe are not Christian? (If the answer is, "by what they believe", then that would be further evidence that belief is part of the common understanding about "Christian" in our culture.)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
For those who accept the definition of Christian as "anyone who says they're a Christian", it seems to me that there is more to that.
If someone says they're a Christian, surely there is some range of characteristics (whether beliefs or actions or allegiance) that you expect them to fall within. Maybe not checking all boxes, but surely not checking none of them. For example, if Osama Bin Laden released a tape saying "I am a Christian" you would presumably have some things you would expect him to have experienced or come to believe or come to act like that would have caused that claim. What would those be? And if he said, "nope, I haven't changed at all from last week" surely you might then be sceptical of his claim to be a Christian?
I'm not saying there's one particular thing that everyone you accept as Christian who calls themself Christian meets, but it seems to me there's a smorgasbord of traits of which you would expect them to have something for their claim to make any sense.
(In this and the previous post, I'm not adhering to my "Christian = baptized" proposed starting point. I'm exploring the implications of the various definitions, keeping (I hope) an open mind.)
[ 20. July 2010, 19:13: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
A short visit to the OED turns up two definitions (among others) for the noun Christian:
quote:
1.a. One who believes or professes the religion of Christ; an adherent of Christianity.
quote:
2. One who exhibits the spirit, and follows the precepts and example, of Christ; a believer in Christ who is characterized by genuine piety.
(They are paralleled by similar definitions for the adjective, one about beliefs and one about actions.)
This seems to fit what we have seen on this thread: some people use Christian to mean belief; some people use it to mean actions.
The belief definition leads one to seek out the definition of Christianity. The one that seems most apposite is:
quote:
2. The religion of Christ; the Christian faith; the system of doctrines and precepts taught by Christ and his apostles.
This doesn't answer specifics about the beliefs and/or actions, but I think that's exactly the point of a definition (to define in general, leaving room for observed variations). I think this ties in to what Schroedinger's cat observed in the OP, that people who call themselves Christians believe very different things. Do the OED definitions help to provide a definition that accomodates that range of belief and actions?
[ 20. July 2010, 19:36: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
If we use existing threads such as Non-Christians on the Ship? and
Former Christians, ever miss anything? as a mine for how people use not-Christian (thereby getting a mirror image of Christian), it seems to me that people usually cease to identify as Christian when they cease identifying with the beliefs. Which might mean a definition of the word "Christian" based on usage would focus on beliefs.
For those of you who believe Christian is defined by actions in the world, how do you distinguish between people doing those actions who are Christian, and those doing those same actions whoe are not Christian? (If the answer is, "by what they believe", then that would be further evidence that belief is part of the common understanding about "Christian" in our culture.)
To the former, there have recently been entire threads about whether CHristianity was defined by cognitive frameworks or whether it's a relational state of being (or some blend of the two.) So to get there, you have to work out what you mean by "beliefs," and which of these or what manner of this is necessary?
John Wesley had all kinds of words for these "orthodox devils" who knew their doctrine forward and backward and did nothing beyond that.
To the latter, I think everyone more less accepts that's impossible. Nobody can know what's going on in someone's soul from the outside.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I don't mean how do you personally tell about someone else. I mean, what are the theoretical movements in their soul (that if you did know, would tell you). Or, more easily, (which is what I meant originally) what is the internal state that distinguishes between Christians and people who don't profess to be Christians and indeed profess another religion who are nevertheless doing the actions that you feel Christians should do.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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