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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Was John Calvin a Calvinist?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So who's damned and who's saved ?
What proportion of the one hundred billion of us ?
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Love wins
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
However covenant faithfulness is not exactly a challenge to ideas about love in the way that hardline-TULIP theology often is.
But I think it is.
God chose to bless the whole world by entering into a covenant firstly with one man (Abraham) and then with one nation (Israel).
Love means choosing someone over someone else. In our experience we know that already - those we love want 'special time' with us (to the exclusion of others); when the homeless ask for food they asking that we feed them and not someone else (even if they are not aware of that); when talking to someone we feel especially valued when they are not distracted but make us feel as if we have their full attention. And so on ...
It is not loving to listen to everyone equally at the same time. It is loving to give full attention to each person we meet, but that will mean giving more to some than to others.
I'm arguing that love means choosing X over Y and that we get that notion from the strand of church tradition in which calvinism stands. Also I'm arguing that acting like this is actually loving towards the whole world.
What I'm saying may sound obvious and you will think that it is shared by all Christians but my point is that we owe the calvinist stream for this insight. (Whether we are calvinists or not.)
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
This line of discussion started with Sharkshooter answering the objection to Calvinism "but that's not loving" by (as I understood it) saying that if you find TULIP principles in the Bible as a description of God, then it must be, and our definition of love needs to change. My point is that it can't, not in any practical sense, because TULIP can only be loving if there is stuff going on that we just don't understand and can't copy.
I know that you said that but I don't see how your criticism sticks. Ever since the beginning Christians have wrestled with what we emulate from God and what we can't (just because he's God). In all our theology we reach limits where this kind of question comes into play.
The most obvious example is the WWJD? bracelets. IMO they are simply an excuse for lazy thinking and simplistic answers. Integrity demands that they should renamed: What would I do if I were Jesus? Of course we should all try to copy Jesus - but does that mean turning water in to wine? What about dying for the sins of the world?
In practice all of us filter our desire to imitate Christ through our own hermeneutic. Calvinists and non-calvinists alike. I don't try to copy God's predestination, I do try to copy the principles about love that I learn from it though.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
1. Yes. Also (contra Jengie Jon) I think TULIP can be argued compellingly from the exegetical principles used by Calvin in the Institutes, that it is not at all a departure from his theology, and if TULIP believers are included in what we mean when we say "Calvinist", then Calvin himself must be too.
Guilty by association? Are you really putting that out as an argument?
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
3. Ish. I actually have no idea what Arminius believed. "Arminian" is (AFAICS) almost exclusively used to mean "A-Christian-who-is-not-a-Calvinist-particularly-not-in-the-TULIP-sense". And as it's a useful word for that purpose, I propose to employ it thus. So, yes, there are lots of Calvinists differing very little from Arminians.
Thanks for clarifying that - I thought you were saying this but wanted you to confirm it first.
I agree completely that most people use arminian in this way, but my point is that it is a rather disingenuous form of argument. By using an opposing term you make it sound as if you are criticizing one systematic theology and putting forward a better one. You aren't. You're just taking pot shots from a safe distance.
That is fair enough. Obviously I wouldn't be on the Ship if I thought theology was above criticism. I just don't think it is fair to compare apples with oranges. IMO any systematic theology is going to have weaknesses (since it is impossible to box in an infinite God) but it is one thing to point out said weak points but it is another all together to put up a better, more coherent, systematic theology of your own.
It is easy to take the same kind of pot shots at Dafyd's quote from Matthew 5. If we really tried to love everyone the way the sun and the rain does we would be impersonal and indifferent. Now, of course that is not what Jesus meant - because we need other definitions of love (like the notion of choosing from calvinism) to add nuance.
BTW You may be interested in some of the Five articles of Remonstrance (with which you are siding):
quote:
Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.
There's a very good case for arguing that this is much more calvinistic than this large group of people you want to put a hoop over would be happy with. You might want to rethink the labels you reach for.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
5. I wish. However previous discussions I've had on the Ship about Calvinism persuade me that the "rigid definition of TULIP" is alive and well, and that there are even people prepared to say that if you believe that there is any human element whatever in accepting salvation, then you are trusting in your own works and thus not saved.
Too true.
Are all Muslims terrorists? Are peaceable Muslims just inconsistent in their faith?
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Although it's fair to say that the Ship's intelligent and thoughtful Calvinists seem to adopt a distinctly Jebusite defensive strategy when we've had that sort of discussion, and leave it to the morally blind and lame to hold the walls.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm really sorry that I wasn't there when Samuel anointed you with oil - it must have been quite a spectacle. Do you really think that you have what it takes to unite all Israel?
Thanks for making me think about this more.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So who's damned and who's saved ?
What proportion of the one hundred billion of us ?
God knows.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Love means choosing someone over someone else.
I'm sorry - I don't see this. It's not of the definition of love that love doesn't mean that you do not love others.
[ 03. November 2010, 23:27: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
<cough>
Ahem.
Drum roll please.
... and the winner of the 2010 triple negative is ...
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Love means choosing someone over someone else.
I'm sorry - I don't see this. It's not of the definition of love that love doesn't mean that you do not love others.
I think that you are taking the apophatic tradition a little too far here Dafyd. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I have always agreed that we are called to love everyone. What calvinism brings to the party is that it is actually loving to everyone to choose to show love to some over others, at different times.
So, for example, when I choose to go out for a night with my wife I am choosing her over my children but I still think I am showing love to them as I do so. Loving my wife is loving my children.
What calvinism brings to the definition of love is that frequently my actions may be perceived as unloving at the moment of action - e.g. when I refuse to give cash to a guy who I know really wants it for grog or when I invest time training a community worker because I know that, although I'm not spending that time directly with people who need care, the worker will be able to spend more time (in the long-run) than I can.
All of this, I would argue, flows from the doctrine of election.
IMO the general statement 'we are called to love everybody' quickly turns into 'I will love those I find easy and convenient to love.' However, Election carries with it the sense that I am committed to love people regardless of whether I find it easy or convenient. Which is why any definition of love that completely jettisons any sense of election is so much poorer as a result.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
So, for example, when I choose to go out for a night with my wife I am choosing her over my children but I still think I am showing love to them as I do so. Loving my wife is loving my children.
I think this is a serious misuse of the concept of "choosing over" -- you are in essence equivocating on that term and trying to import implications of one meaning into the other.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
So, for example, when I choose to go out for a night with my wife I am choosing her over my children but I still think I am showing love to them as I do so. Loving my wife is loving my children.
I think this is a serious misuse of the concept of "choosing over" -- you are in essence equivocating on that term and trying to import implications of one meaning into the other.
I'm surprised that you cannot see the irony of this comment MT.
Eliab and Dafyd have argued that our definition of love does not need calvinism. My point all along has been that such a position is only possible by equivocating and importing implications from elsewhere.
Instead I'm conceding that all of us do that - but that we need to import all the various scriptural nuances to love into our definition,a nd be upfront about so doing.
For example, I'm trying to be fair to the OT concept that God is 'jealous' - indeed, in Exodus 34: 14 he says that his very name is 'jealous'. (I'm sure you know that in Hebrew someone's name is much more than just a label it conveys part of their very presence.)
We all know petty human jealousy and how selfish and controlling it can be. And yet, there is a sense in which true love must be jealous - it would not be a good reflection on my love for my wife if I was not jealous if she was spending more time with another man than me. It would reveal that my love for her is very shallow.
In 2 Corinthians 11: 2 the Apostle Paul says that he is trying to imitate this 'godly jealousy' and he uses the same word that the LXX uses in Exodus 34. Clearly Paul was able to make the step from 'God loves me with a jealous love' to 'I must love others with a jealous love'.
Of course I'm not justifying all jealousy (the NT itself reflects this tension) but any Christian definition of love must surely incorporate something of this concept of jealousy.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What it sounds like is that you find some word in the Scriptures that is taken to describe God, and you cast around looking for something in our peer-to-peer human life that you can possibly glom it onto.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What it sounds like is that you find some word in the Scriptures that is taken to describe God, and you cast around looking for something in our peer-to-peer human life that you can possibly glom it onto.
Unless you are also saying that Paul is doing this as well then it is a pretty weak response.
If that is all I'm doing then it should be very easy to demonstrate from scripture, tradition and society.
(Qanah is hardly 'some word' - it is everywhere in the OT. And, as I said, it is something that Paul tries to emulate.)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Hmm. Immediately before he says he's jealous for the Corinthians, Paul says "I hope you'll put up with me in a little foolishness."
How seriously do we take the very next verse? He goes on to talk about preparing the church for Christ, and nothing beyond that first sentence is the least bit foolish. Except for the idea that a man can have a godly jealousy? How do you read 1 Cor 11:1?
Does "weak" answer mean "one that contradicts me"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Does He now Johnny ?
And He loves conditionally ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Hmm. Immediately before he says he's jealous for the Corinthians, Paul says "I hope you'll put up with me in a little foolishness."
How seriously do we take the very next verse? He goes on to talk about preparing the church for Christ, and nothing beyond that first sentence is the least bit foolish. Except for the idea that a man can have a godly jealousy?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
He spells it out in black and white what he is referring to as foolishness in verse 17 - 'self-confident boasting'.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How do you read 1 Cor 11:1?
I read it the same way you do. And unless you've suddenly become arian in your view of the trinity you'd likewise say that the Father and the Son have the same character and same substance.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Does "weak" answer mean "one that contradicts me"?
It could do, but in the case it doesn't. Here it just means weak.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He now Johnny ?
Does he what? (Or were you just channeling Are you being served? or Frankie Howard?)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Know who He's saved and who He's damned.
Missus.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
If He doesn't, He is not God.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why ?
How ?
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Love wins
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I've been mostly reading this fascinating thread for Host reasons, but maybe I could say something at this point that I know I've said before on "atonement" threads.
I do not believe that God's love is conditional nor do I believe that He shows favouritism. In the Acts account, the shift of church emphasis from "a chosen people" to "a light to the Gentiles" centres around Peter's encounter with Cornelius, within which we have this "step 1" central revelation to Peter that God does not show favouritism.
quote:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
But I call it a step 1. Note that in Peter's eyes at that point, God's acceptance is conditional.
Now there is also a "step 2" - and this is an example of that step 2.
quote:
2 Corinthians 5: 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
The direction of reconciliation is "us to God", not "God to us". We are the ones who are alienated.
Yet, studying the Institutes Book 3 Chapter 14 para 11, we find this summary.
quote:
Moreover, the message of free reconciliation with God is not promulgated for one or two days, but is declared to be perpetual in the Church (2 Cor. 5:18, 19). Hence believers have not even to the end of life any other righteousness than that which is there described. Christ ever remains a Mediator to reconcile the Father to us, and there is a perpetual efficacy in his death—viz. ablution, satisfaction, expiation; in short, perfect obedience, by which all our iniquities are covered. (My emboldening)
You will see that, in this place at least, Calvin has the direction of the reconciliation wrong. He says that Christ reconciles the Father to us, whereas the scripture he quotes urges us to be reconciled to the Father. Much follows from that (IMO) misunderstanding by Calvin, but perhaps the most obvious contrast is with the picture of God the Father in the parable of the Prodigal - the lost son. This Father of the lost son does not need to be reconciled to his son at all. His love is clearly unconditional. He loves His son, even though that son is lost. The son does not realise just how much until he returns.
I do not believe that God needs to be reconciled to us in order to love us. He loves us first. It may be that we also need to be reconciled to Him to appreciate the fullness of His love, but that is another matter.
[ 04. November 2010, 16:38: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Exactly oh 62nd Son of Encouragement.
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Love wins
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
Hi B62. I thought you'd find this interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Moreover, the message of free reconciliation with God is not promulgated for one or two days, but is declared to be perpetual in the Church (2 Cor. 5:18, 19). Hence believers have not even to the end of life any other righteousness than that which is there described. Christ ever remains a Mediator to reconcile the Father to us, and there is a perpetual efficacy in his death—viz. ablution, satisfaction, expiation; in short, perfect obedience, by which all our iniquities are covered. (My emboldening)
I think you're right here - Calvin is wrong in the way he handles 2 Corinthians 5 at this point. (Although I'd argue that he should have gone to Ephesians - but that is another story!)
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I do not believe that God's love is conditional nor do I believe that He shows favouritism.
I feel like reformation history is being repeated here. Calvin was trying to put forward a view of God's lvoe that was truly unconditional - he argued that (what we would call arminianism) made God's love conditional.
You have made God's love dependent on the PS repenting. We must not divorce that third story from the other two Luke puts into Luke 15. Jesus seeks the lost coin and lost sheep - he doesn't just wait for them to come to him. That is truly unconditional love.
I love the parable of the PS but I do think it's popularity in western culture arises, in part, from how it perfectly matches our contemporary definition of love. If we are to say that the Father loved the son unconditionally when he was still far off then our definition of love will soon turn into sentimentalism. Divine love is active. Otherwise I'm excuse to sit on my butt all day and thinking nice thoughts about people but I don't have to do anything until they come to me.
<ummm> There. I just loved the whole population of India.
<Urrg.> Wow, that's Chine loved too.
My argument is that only a calvinistic view of love can really be unconditional. Please note that I'm agreeing with you that God loves everyone in the sense that the Father loved the PS when he was far away, but if we are to have a divine view of love we need this extra element too.
Now, Eliab is right to raise the question of the unknown - how can we copy decisions based on the mind of God? Well this is where I become all apophatic and say that we know from scripture that his love is not capricious, nor self-seeking and so we are called simply to love unconditionally by 'putting' on love on others. It is this commitment or covenant that I think Calvin brings to the discussion. Arminianism fits much better with our culture where I tihnk I'm loving people but actually I'm doing nice things at my convenience and preference.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
How ?
How did Jesus turn water into wine?
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
<Urrg.> Wow, that's Chine loved too.
And look, I can love several billion people without even spelling their name correctly.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Er, so being in control of matter supernaturally equates to knowing all individual human fates before there was matter ?
How ?
Why ?
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Love wins
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I do not believe that God's love is conditional nor do I believe that He shows favouritism.
I feel like reformation history is being repeated here. Calvin was trying to put forward a view of God's lvoe that was truly unconditional - he argued that (what we would call arminianism) made God's love conditional.
Indeed he was, but he ended up with a condition anyway. And on the way, he seems to misunderstood the ministry of reconciliation, as we agree I think.
quote:
You have made God's love dependent on the PS repenting. We must not divorce that third story from the other two Luke puts into Luke 15. Jesus seeks the lost coin and lost sheep - he doesn't just wait for them to come to him. That is truly unconditional love.
You lose me at this point. God may choose to seek, by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit or the agency of the Church. Or He may choose to wait. His love is not dependent on His means.
quote:
I love the parable of the PS but I do think it's popularity in western culture arises, in part, from how it perfectly matches our contemporary definition of love. If we are to say that the Father loved the son unconditionally when he was still far off then our definition of love will soon turn into sentimentalism. Divine love is active. Otherwise I'm excuse to sit on my butt all day and thinking nice thoughts about people but I don't have to do anything until they come to me.
I think you are right about the dangers of confusing love and sentimentality. And of course Divine love is active. Even when waiting!
I think it is love of God and others which provides the cutting edge of all human outreach. But it had better be expressed unconditionally! Surely you have been in the situation when you know "in your knower" that you must wait for the penny to drop? I'm armed by the old saying that a man persuaded against his will is of the same opinion still. Time and circumstances can be very effective, often much more effective than human activity. Sometimes we follow Jesus in seeking to save that which is lost. Sometimes we follow Jesus in encouraging folks to seek for themselves. And sometimes it seems best to trust that the Spirit of God will work through time and circumstances. Or others of course. We may need to recognise that we're not the right person, not in the right place, and it's not the right time. Patience and kindness are fruits of love.
[ 05. November 2010, 00:01: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Er, so being in control of matter supernaturally equates to knowing all individual human fates before there was matter ?
No.
I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of areas where Christians are happy to trust that God can do something without knowing how he does it.
Oh yes, and I was trying to make that point without mentioning the word 'parsimony'.
Crap. You just made me do it. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Indeed he was, but he ended up with a condition anyway.
In an attempt to remove the even more obvious conditions of arminianism, possibly.
If you are saying that it is turtles all the way down then I'm happy with that. However, If you are trying to say that arminianism promotes unconditional love while calvinism does not then that is clearly not true.
Both systems have turtles all the way. In my simplistic view it only comes down to whether the last turtle is God or mankind - me, I'd put a lot more confidence in God.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
You lose me at this point. God may choose to seek, by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit or the agency of the Church. Or He may choose to wait. His love is not dependent on His means.
I think I lose you because you are stuck in a 16th century debate. Eliab has already explained how he is using the term arminian - in a kind of catch-all reaction against calvinism.
I concede that there are some hardline 5 pointers out there who might struggle with your point above but my 'tradition' would normally self-identify as 'reformed' and yet we'd totally agree with your statement here.
Bearing in mind we are not in Geneva and we are not in the 16th century, I'd say that an arminian theology is going to tend towards the agency of the church and a calvinistic theology is going to tend towards the power of the Holy Spirit. (Again I'm not using the terms historically but rather how they are being bandied around on this thread.)
Of course, as you say, we need both - but IME that is exactly what the vast majority of reformed Christians would say too. If you are fed up with arminians being tarred with the brush of pelagianism then back off doing the same in reverse to calvinists. (That wasn't a reference to 'you' B62 but rather to a general 'you'.)
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think it is love of God and others which provides the cutting edge of all human outreach. But it had better be expressed unconditionally! Surely you have been in the situation when you know "in your knower" that you must wait for the penny to drop? I'm armed by the old saying that a man persuaded against his will is of the same opinion still. Time and circumstances can be very effective, often much more effective than human activity. Sometimes we follow Jesus in seeking to save that which is lost. Sometimes we follow Jesus in encouraging folks to seek for themselves. And sometimes it seems best to trust that the Spirit of God will work through time and circumstances. Or others of course. We may need to recognise that we're not the right person, not in the right place, and it's not the right time. Patience and kindness are fruits of love.
Exactly. You have expressed a calvinistic confidence in the sovereignty of God here. If I was fully arminian I could never sit back and trust that the Spirit might work in his perfect timing.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
So, as you say, you have to be a calvinist to show this kind of unconditional love.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Now you know why I try to avoid labels. There is much more I could say, but you cannot bear it now! And anyway, I'm off on a grandchildren visit in a couple of hours. Must avoid the wrath of my wife and allow time for final preparations and car-loading. Certain issues of trust and sovereignty there!
I may get some online time, depending on whether there is a hotspot near enough in the cottage we've booked. Otherwise "I'll be baaaaaack" in about a week.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Arminianism fits much better with our culture where I tihnk I'm loving people but actually I'm doing nice things at my convenience and preference.
I'm sorry - you objected when we tried to define Calvinism. In the same way, you can't define Arminianism to include whatever negative traits you want to impose upon it.
Covenant theology is not unique to Calvinism. It's absolutely central to most forms of Judaism, for example, and the Jews are not by any reasonable definition Calvinists.
Let me try to restate my main objection to your argument by way of analogy.
God knows everything. In so far as I know, I imitate God. But I can't know everything. If I come to know one subject I can't be coming to know another subject at the same time. I can't learn French and learn Spanish at the same time. I can't study Chinese history and study organic chemistry at the same time.
So when I study Chinese history, I imitate God in coming to know in a manner appropriate to being a creature by not being able also to know chemistry.
I imitate God according to my powers as a creature.
Let's divide that up for logic's sake:
1) I imitate God;
2) according to my powers as a creature.
In so far as I know I am imitating God. In so far as knowing one thing precludes me from knowing something else I am a creature. As this pertains to me as a creature, in this respect I am not imitating God. God is not a creature.
So applying the same analogy to love.
I imitate God by loving everyone as I can.
1) loving everyone - imitating God;
2) as I can - being a creature.
Now my objection is that you are confusing 1) and 2). You're putting what belongs to us in our capacities as a creature into the imitating God element. Basically the implication of what you're saying is our created nature doesn't modify our ability to imitate God. The implication of your theology is God is just like a creature only bigger. On your interpretation of covenant theology - I don't call it Calvinism because it's not unique to Calvinism - God is just another creature like yourself.
And no, it's not true that Arminianism makes love conditional. Some varieties of Arminianism may say that the mode in which God expresses love is conditional, but that love is not. Compare child-rearing: Calvinists have not historically been noted for their permissive approach to child-rearing. Historically, Calvinists have not said that love of one's children requires one not to punish them when they've done wrong. A parent does not cease to love his or her child when the parent tells the child off for their actions.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Johhny, we know that God has complete power to change His mind over any material phenomenon that He is thinking, to change the way it 'naturally' works, to change His thought processes of which every indeterminate quantum perturbation of material reality is an aspect.
He can determine any future configuration He wishes by making it happen that way then or via now or at any point of suspension of the laws of natural indeterminacy which are independent of Him.
Like truth and goodness. Indeterminacy is the only possible way that material reality, at least, works. That God's thinking works with material results.
Nowhere in God's thinking is there a record of the spin of electrons that He is thinking before that spin is observed. And their indeterminate, superpositioned spin - which He creates and sees and sustains with full knowledge, will and power - is unobserved otherwise. By Him.
Unless we claim that there is a realm of existence, of information in which the spin of each electron IS known by God and at the same time is utterly indeterminate by every other criterion and worse ... by Him. That there is data - i.e knowledge, that which the all-knowing must know, now, that says what the spin of an electron will be whenever it is measured despite the fact that such knowledge ... does not exist. That He doesn't know. As well as knows.
Which, of course, is not just imparsimonious.
It is meaningless.
Sharkshooter says that God HAS to do that.
Which LIMITS God.
The way round that meaninglessness is to be even more imparsimonious and say that it's all happened in the future.
What tense is that ?
Missus ?
That constrains God completely to being a clock.
Deus ex machina.
Augustine's. Muhammad's. Aquinas'. Calvin's. Arminius'.
A damning machine. Unless you're a universalist.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Arminianism fits much better with our culture where I tihnk I'm loving people but actually I'm doing nice things at my convenience and preference.
I'm sorry - you objected when we tried to define Calvinism. In the same way, you can't define Arminianism to include whatever negative traits you want to impose upon it.
Yes, exactly right. That is my problem with Eliab's definition of arminianism. It's not even that I'm being forced to compare the worst of calvinism with the best of arminianism - actually arminianism is now a fluid term which can take whatever we want from the rest of Christendom.
If we are going to be vague in our definitions of arminianism then we have to take the hits when generalisations are made. You can't have it both ways.
Perhaps I need to spell out more clearly what I've been doing - it has probably only been clear to me! Since Eliab asked (what I think is a good question) how God's electing love can possibly translate into human ethics I have taken the doctrine of election as a nexus for calvinism. So when I talk about covenant love I am speaking particularly of God's choosing of Israel - a monergistic covenant if you will. That is what is peculiar to calvinism.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Covenant theology is not unique to Calvinism. It's absolutely central to most forms of Judaism, for example, and the Jews are not by any reasonable definition Calvinists.
It is unique in the way I've been using it.
And as for the Jews - haven't you heard of Zionism? The concept of God's election of Israel as both people and land is still common among Jews. Of course it is anachronistic to apply the term calvinism to those Jews who hold to this but they share the same theological parenthood - where do you think calvinists get the idea of election from?
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Now my objection is that you are confusing 1) and 2). You're putting what belongs to us in our capacities as a creature into the imitating God element. Basically the implication of what you're saying is our created nature doesn't modify our ability to imitate God. The implication of your theology is God is just like a creature only bigger. On your interpretation of covenant theology - I don't call it Calvinism because it's not unique to Calvinism - God is just another creature like yourself.
No, that is not what I'm doing. I was replying to Eliab's questions about electing love. Taking the calvinistic concept of electing covenant love I merely gave some examples in human society that, it could be argued, are a legitimate application of a quality of God's love.
Once more you are moving the goalposts - first of all it is said that it is impossible to move from God --> mankind and then when I give some possible examples you accuse me of going from mankind --> God.
Surely the one thing you cannot say about Calvin is that his view of God is just man writ large. If anything, as Eliab has said, the problems are in the other direction.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
And no, it's not true that Arminianism makes love conditional. Some varieties of Arminianism may say that the mode in which God expresses love is conditional, but that love is not. Compare child-rearing: Calvinists have not historically been noted for their permissive approach to child-rearing. Historically, Calvinists have not said that love of one's children requires one not to punish them when they've done wrong. A parent does not cease to love his or her child when the parent tells the child off for their actions.
You've lost me here. I've no idea what this has got to do with our discussion.
My point earlier was that it is mildly ridiculous to accuse calvinists of having a conditional view of love. What do you think the 'U' in TULIP stands for? Feel free to make accusations of inconsistency or point out where calvinism falls down; but when you start saying that calvinism has, at its heart, a conditional view of love then you haven't understood calvinism. Can't have.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
Martin - I don't claim to be an expert on science but having a degree in Chemistry means that I do know a little about quantum mechanics. Suffice to say that you are talking with absolute certainty about things that scientists don't. It is called the Uncertainty principle with good reason.
Don't you see any irony in the fact that you are importing all this determinism from science to prove the fact God cannot be deterministic?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I am talking with absolute certainty about the uncertainty principle. Which is scientific of me. I too studied chemistry, including physical chemistry at university.
Your response is merely rhetorical Johnny. And counter-factual. Reality is NOT deterministic. There is no uncertainty about that. It cannot be in theory and it isn't in fact. Fancy that! Reality - creation - is panentheistic. An aspect of God. It is not determined. Therefore He isn't.
God does play dice. Period. He can't not.
Apart from by His will. In which He is all but irresistably determined. He lives with, thinks His indeterminate thoughts - typified by electrons, indeterminate concretizations of the indeterminate abstract - and wills the best possible outcome regardless. In His will is 'YES'. In Him is 'YES'. Despite reality being fundamentally, by definition, indeterminate. Reality is that which is, of itself, indeterminate. Just as the theory says.
So your salvation, remains unknown in fact as it hasn't happened yet. Any more than your conception was known by God seconds before it happened. Let alone from eternity. Whatever 'you' are. Because even at conception 'you' were not determined. Any more than you will be tomorrow. Which is even less than you are now. Which isn't much.
That's SCIENCE Johhny. Reality. Imparsimoniously believe what you want. Why I don't understand. Beyond fear and disbelief which I know right well. It adds nothing and takes away everything. As infinitely more is totally, completely less. It cages, constrains and forces God in to being an infinite, static box with NO degree of freedom whatsoever. A dead box.
And unless one is a universalist it makes one a damnationist.
The language of predestination is ours. Is rhetoric. It has no meaning apart from that. With one exception. Christ. The Chosen (One).
God is not a clock. Not infinite Bender containing infinite spooled eternal Futurama. Not determinate. Except insofar as indeterminacy is.
He's determined, YES.
Salvation is all but utterly inexorable in Christ who deifies us all by becoming human. We are like God, divine, because God is human. ALL are included, ALL are predestined in Him for atonement, for forgiveness, for mercy, for love. NONE are predestined to damnation.
Some may choose damnation as Lucifer apparently has. Despite omnipotent Love. Which can no more make a created being accept love and allow love than It can passively know what the spin of an electron is or whether it's going to rain tomorrow. Or how the King of the North will fare against the King of the South.
To KNOW any of these things before they happen is to MAKE them happen. That cannot be done to a mind.
Just as there are limits to omniscience, there are limits to omnipotence. They are linguistic, logical, propositional, semantic and THEREFORE real.
Love makes indeterminacy irrelevant, forces through it: Jesus saves. Not by putting every tick in the clock by winding it up before it was made.
Ah well.
Just a thought.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I too studied chemistry, including physical chemistry at university.
Did you pass though?
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Your response is merely rhetorical Johnny. And counter-factual. Reality is NOT deterministic. There is no uncertainty about that.
Says who?
Says Martin. Which is just rhetoric too.
There are are whole branches of sociology / biology / psychology which assume some level of determinism. The debate is a current one. Did they fail to get your memo explaining that we now possess exhaustive knowledge on this subject?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What ?
Go back to your studies until you understand.
Or better yet, submit. Understanding will follow.
Are are you trapped like Einstein ?
Your theology, as is all Augustinean theology predicated on a wooden interpretation of predestination, is compounded by that error.
You are denying reality. I.e. the indeterminate.
Even IngoB, who DOES know better, DOES acknowledge his imparsimony. He chooses imparsimony over the FACT of indeterminate reality (which is redundant phraseology which reduces to the FACT of indeterinacy: reality). Not for reasons of faith or intellect, but disposition.
We ALL do.
This battle is a battle of will, of ego all the way down to the depraved id, of vanity.
I'm parsimoniously right. But have I charity ? That's my battle. In opposing damnationism (mandatory arbitrary determinism: God the Bender), do I damn and am therefore damned ?
And Johnny, who has God helplessly HAD to save from eternity and who has He HAD to damn ?
Why ?
How ?
Did He play dice ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
I take it you failed then.
(Simply repeating assertions and repeating questions doesn't exactly encourage more discussion Martin.)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
PS I knew in advance that you would use the word 'imparsimony' in your previous post.
[ETA - damn, indeterminism creeped in with your cross-post.]
[ 06. November 2010, 11:24: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
:0) yeah, God's that smart too. He can work stuff out. And will it to be otherwise.
So what course material, what academic reference can you cite to overturn the immutable, quantifiable, scientific fact of uncertainty as NOT a lack of occult information ?
Where are the better, Platonic electrons that God projects our shadow ones through ?
I suspect that you are struggling to be the nicest possible Augustinean-Calminian it is possible to be Johnny.
And you're doing better than I EVER will, as I ain't nice.
But I'm right.
And God is.
As I wish your day to be, mine will be. Cheers for now.
[ 06. November 2010, 11:35: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So what course material, what academic reference can you cite to overturn the immutable, quantifiable, scientific fact of uncertainty as NOT a lack of occult information ?
As it happens I've just finished reading The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking.
In the chapter where he discusses the Uncertainty Principle he makes this statement - quote:
"Quantum physics might seem to undermine the idea that nature is governed by laws, but that is not the case. Instead it leads us to accept a new form of determinism: given the state of the system at some time, the laws of nature determine the probabilities of various futures and pasts rather than determining the future and past with certainty."
What fascinates me about that statement is that he still insists on using the word determinism. Of course he has to. His quest for the unifying principle is grounded in his attempt to reconcile Newtonian and Einsteinian physics.
The thing about science is that it has to be (at least to some degree) deterministic for it to work.
When was the last time you saw a brickie down tools to calculate the probability of the location of all the electrons in his bricks?
To my mind the quest for the unifying principle is what philosophers would call compatibilism - the attempt to reconcile (however imparsimoniously) determinism with indeterminism.
[ 06. November 2010, 12:32: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeterminism is determined. Uncertainty is certain. These, THIS is not commutative. Hawking is yesterday's man, spent and has NO chance any more than Einstein did. Less.
As I do not understand free will - it's not an attribute of God in any way and explains nothing of any significance and is not accepted, needed in science - in the slightest, I find it meaningless, just as I do predestination (determinism), then I have no need for compatibilism to reconcile two meaningless concepts.
But there again I'm a VERY simple minded man.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
But there again I'm a VERY simple minded man.
good for you, mate - perhaps you could post in terms that the even simpler-minded amongst us could comprehend?
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Even IngoB, who DOES know better, DOES acknowledge his imparsimony. He chooses imparsimony over the FACT of indeterminate reality (which is redundant phraseology which reduces to the FACT of indeterminacy: reality). Not for reasons of faith or intellect, but disposition.
The problem is that you lecture passionately about things you have not understood much. Parsimony is not a part of nature. Nature is so fundamentally imparsimonious that it requires modern science, the best human minds of a huge population chained together in a Babelian effort spanning centuries, to impose it on nature. Somewhat. But never ever is nature without another trick up her sleeve. I've been an elementary particle physicist. It's a zoo of particles, Lagrangians and Lie groups. Our attempts to unify, simplify, breed ever more complexity. Every time we crank up the energy and look deeper, there is more. It's like a fat fractal of observables. And compared to the neuroscience I do now that was almost ridiculously straightforward. Parsimony is our last lease on sanity. It's what keeps us afloat on the dark sea of science. Yet not so because that's what nature is like, and by extrapolation what God is like, but because of what we are like. Nature is deep, we are shallow.
Furthermore, you have not understood indeterminacy much, and hence also not how it relates to God. Indeterminacy is a specific statement about the world. B does not follow from A. But B is and A is and therefore God necessarily creates B and A in indeterminate relationship to each other. Now, this is impossible precisely as long as one has a false, demiurge, conception of God. An agent cannot arrange matter to be non-arranged. However, it is dead simple - parsimonious even - once one understands God a bit more correctly. You will note that both you and I did create B and A in indeterminate relationship to each other, in our imagination, without the slightest problem. God's imagination is reality. The indeterminacy of the world in fact proves the existence of God, and I will spell that out in another thread. Yet what is important to realize now is that it simply does not follow from indeterminacy in the world that God doesn't know what is going to be the case. That's just a category error, and it turns God into a demiurge, into a part of the world. Einstein indeed saw deeply, much deeper than the young quantum mechanics he was critiquing. His only problem was that he tried to stick to physics when God was staring him into the face...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All clear now Jahlove?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
IngoB:
quote:
Now, this is impossible precisely as long as one has a false, demiurge, conception of God. An agent cannot arrange matter to be non-arranged. However, it is dead simple - parsimonious even - once one understands God a bit more correctly.
Well I can see the direction of travel here and will read the pre-plugged thread with interest, but aren't you close to saying "Now that we understand the incomprehensability of God, we can . . ."
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm bloody impressed anteater if you can see the direction of this: 'An agent cannot arrange matter to be non-arranged.', let alone what it means. Makes me look positively cogent.
IngoB baby, come down, stoop to conquer. I ask AGAIN. Your rhetoric and claims of superior understanding of anything just don't reach me, especially when accompanied with straw men, category errors, irrelevancies. Projection.
The bewildering proliferation of entities at higher energies comes under the heading of indeterminacy, not imparsimony.
What's the problem ? Why bluster ?
You CANNOT blind me with science - particularly as you're not actually using it, with pseudo-intellectualism. Or even the real thing, which you're not actually using correctly even if you have it. You need to beat me up, club me to the ground with A is for Apple. Patronize me please, but do not use second rate rhetoric and think that I'm intimidated by it. I'm offended, certainly, by your claims to intellectual superiority and understanding and wisdom over my third rate versions not because you make the claims which are all true I'm sure, brain as big as two planets as you have, but because you don't and therefore CAN NOT actually do it.
If you could, you would.
DO IT. Don't just claim to be able to. I'm third rate mate, on a good day.
My understanding of fundamental, hypostatic, essential indeterminacy is fine, thank you, you haven't TOUCHED it.
There is NOTHING demiurgical about God being constrained by it. Any more than He's constrained to be good.
You'll claim you don't have the time. What, to even START ? I'll wait forever mate, I'll treasure the start of the catechism, when it happens and wait longingly for as long as it takes once you've given me the first bead for the next.
Please START.
If you can. If you can spare the time.
Otherwise, mate, the floor, the gutter is unassailably mine.
God is not a clock wound up forever forever ago. God is not infinite Bender with all of eternal Futurama spooled inside Him. He does not HAVE to be known gnostically thus. He didn't know you from Adam eternity ago. Not that there's much to know.
PLEASE give me the first bead of your truly superior understanding that I HAVE to accept?
Or am I just tooooooo stupid? It can't be done? I have to be left in my savage's ignorance? A wolf-child too old to learn to speak? I cannot become as a little child, rabbi?
In that case mate, I will come back at every predestinarian, every Ptolemaic-Augustinean here every time, whether damnationists like yourself or universalists like Mousethief.
At least you have the courage to damn despite Jesus' promise of salvation.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As I do not understand free will - it's not an attribute of God in any way and explains nothing of any significance and is not accepted, needed in science - in the slightest, I find it meaningless, just as I do predestination (determinism), then I have no need for compatibilism to reconcile two meaningless concepts.
I don't get this Martin.
You seem to be saying that you cannot believe in black and white because all you can see is grey?
[ 08. November 2010, 03:10: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I never beat my wife Johnny.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Martin, I have seen little evidence that you deserve any particular effort of mine - at least as far as the topic of predestination is concerned. There was plenty of meat in what I wrote above, and indeed elsewhere on the Ship, but your only response is a lengthy list of "ad hominem"s and the insistence that you, only you, will be the judge of which of my arguments makes sense. There's no point - and no joy - in arguing with someone being that destructive.
As it happens, I've thought about randomness quite independently of your latest attempt to shout down dissenting voices with that weirdly transparent combination of intellectual arrogance and self-deprecation. So I have posted on that now elsewhere. FWIW.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You've got NOTHING mate.
I'd get off the pot if I were you before you burst a haemorrhoid.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I never beat my wife Johnny.
What phony dog poo?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Tuesday.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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