quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
From my own tradition I would not dream of asking how often the person I was talking to had received communion or been to confession - that's between the person and their priest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So what on earth makes it acceptable to challenge your fellow Christians? And what for that matter to judge?

---

Well, of course it's perfectly fine to judge them as long as you do it positively.

I think it's likely they are scoring points with God for 'zeal' as they are at a place in their lives where they are sincerely trying to do what they have been led to believe is 'right' (often knowing full well they are subjecting themselves to ridicule from their 'betters' - DAMHIK), although s/he/it may be otherwise less than completely pleased with their overall development.

Love 'em or hate 'em, they're not lukewarm.


 

---

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So what on earth makes it acceptable to challenge your fellow Christians? And what for that matter to judge?

---

Nothing. It's not acceptable. Not at all. The Bible never gives permission to challenge a person's salvation.

You might ask them to carefully define the term "born again." I've found that many who use the term don't really know what they mean when they're saying it. Actually, I find that many (certainly not all) in that stream of the church discuss their faith almost completely in empty tag lines that they can't really define and don't really understand.

And if they can define it, you might find (depending on exactly who you're dealing with here) that either:

A: Their definition is not really what the Bible says about the term. My concordance only found three instances of it, all pretty vague as to what it really meant: Jesus just said you are "born of the Spirit" which one could say happens when you are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

OR

B: you may find the term actually fits you. Again, this is heavily dependent on who you're dealing with and what they mean by the term.

For the OP, it sounds like B won't be the case; but you never know, they might not realize how much they actually have in common with the rest of the Church. I was very surprised to find that most of my theology fit better in the Orthodox church than in my protestant background. Sometimes some people (thinking of myself when I say this) just need their eyes opened to the fact that there are a lot of Christians out there who share the same basic beliefs as them, and that despite differences we really have quite a lot in common.
 

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Posted by Apocalypso (# 15405) on :
 
I can no longer count myself a Christian, and am in fact in something of a personal knot over that fact, but I very much want to address this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
. . . What makes it acceptable for the strand of Christianity that uses the language of "born again" to challenge other Christians and judge them on their answers? And if questioned on the acceptability of this, to say: "Oh, but you need to be challenged as a Christian. Do you acknowledge Jesus as Lord?".

Why can't people coming from that mindset see that it's only one mindset and that there is a whole range of Christians who do not express themselves in those terms and would be totally uncomfortable in trotting out such tired and loaded clichés . . .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan knox:
I find the response 'I'm sorry, but who died and made you God and judge?' tends to shut them up...
And, if it doesn't, the judicious use of a chainsaw 'in Christian love' tends to do the trick.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Then you get the very silly people who think I can't possibly be a (real) Christian because I sing in a church choir.

I suppose you can only hold up a mirror to them and let the light of their misconceptions shine back in their faces.

---

Ah, you remind me of a fellow student who took my umbrella, without checking with me first if I needed it, so she didn't get wet going to church. What had been a drizzle when fellow student set off for church turned into a torrential downpour as I was mid-way to Evensong...

On being confronted with a very angry, and still fairly soggy Japes on her return, I was stared at blankly, and informed it was because it didn't matter if I got wet, as I didn't go to a "proper" church. I sang in the voluntary choir in the cathedral, and had to be lent towels by the vergers so I could dry off enough before Evensong.

The Canon-in-Residence's face was a picture when I explained when I met him the next day just why I was so wet the day before.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Some of you are definitely holier than I because when someone starts in with the "Are you saved, sister?" I'm afraid any number of sarcastic ways of messing with their heads pop into mine....

I try not to do that to those who are a) fearfully in earnest and b) Christ's "little ones"--you know, the ones who are childlike innocents and might get seriously harmed by my snarkiness. But if I suspect there's a game of one-up-manship going, why then...
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 

quote:

---

I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

---

• Who is Jesus?
• (Trick question- What about God?)
• What does Christ mean?
• Lord- in what sense? Does he micromanage or or is he one of those CEOs with a zillion deputies?
• Savior- from what? Hell? That place he created for you in the first place?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Some of you are definitely holier than I because when someone starts in with the "Are you saved, sister?" I'm afraid any number of sarcastic ways of messing with their heads pop into mine....

I try not to do that to those who are a) fearfully in earnest and b) Christ's "little ones"--you know, the ones who are childlike innocents and might get seriously harmed by my snarkiness. But if I suspect there's a game of one-up-manship going, why then...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

quote:

---

I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

---

• Who is Jesus?
• (Trick question- What about God?)
• What does Christ mean?
• Lord- in what sense? Does he micromanage or or is he one of those CEOs with a zillion deputies?
• Savior- from what? Hell? That place he created for you in the first place?

---

• I'm sorry I don't believe in feudal forms of social organisation
• Well, we talk, but the relationship is complicated
• The salvationists tell me the rolls of the elect have been full for half a century, so I have opted for a Hindu cyclical creation sequence in which I can be reborn an unlimited number of times - admittedly one has no guaranteed access to paradise but it gives you a great deal of varied experience and an unrivalled choice in situationally appropriate avatars to adore

 

---

Posted by Apocalypso (# 15405) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
"Yes of course I need to be challenged in how I live life as a Christian. But this is not a task that has been allocated to you."
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
Adopt look of pastoral concern... gently hold elbow in supportive, yet non-sexually threatening way [unless person has elbow-fetish... they never did cover that one in pastoral care class!], using hushed, caring tones note to person:

"Actually, I was just chatting to Jesus a couple of minutes ago and He was telling me that He was a little worried about you, brother/sister..."
 

---

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
What makes it acceptable for the strand of Christianity that uses the language of "born again" to challenge other Christians and judge them on their answers? And if questioned on the acceptability of this, to say: "Oh, but you need to be challenged as a Christian. Do you acknowledge Jesus as Lord?".

---

In my experience, it's not just that particular strand of Christianity. All kinds of strands do it, but they just use different jargon, and have a different way of implying that they are holier than you, and that you are wrong. And they challenge on different things.

One difference is that some will simply leave you in your 'wrongness', while silently looking down on you and alluding to things without saying it outright, while others see it as their duty to help you out of your 'wrongness', and so are vocal about it. Both are equally annoying to me.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Joan Knox...

Apocalypso, c'mon now. You know what I mean--it doesn't require any spiritual discernment to know that X always talks to himself in the back pew and is definitely a little off, and giving him snarky answers would be putting yet another fearful bogeyman into his already shadowed world. Or Y, who is literally wringing her hands while she talks to you, and you know that she's a terribly worrywart and probably on six forms of Xanax, and why add another ring to those already under her eyes?

With regards to your stalker frenemy, I'd say simply the fact that he LIES to you makes him fair game for snarky treatment, the more outrageous the beter. And the stalkerish behavior is grounds to a sharp rebuke and to follow-up action if he continues to stalk. You've got a right to be left in peace. And HE may have several screws loose that need a sharp adjustment, by court order if necessary.
 

---

Posted by Paddy O'Furniture (# 12953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Then you get the very silly people who think I can't possibly be a (real) Christian because I sing in a church choir.

I suppose you can only hold up a mirror to them and let the light of their misconceptions shine back in their faces.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Some of you are definitely holier than I because when someone starts in with the "Are you saved, sister?" I'm afraid any number of sarcastic ways of messing with their heads pop into mine....

I try not to do that to those who are a) fearfully in earnest and b) Christ's "little ones"--you know, the ones who are childlike innocents and might get seriously harmed by my snarkiness. But if I suspect there's a game of one-up-manship going, why then...

---

Here's a few snarky comments that my sisters (not the oldest sister because she's a wacko-fundie) and other friends have come up with:

Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: I didn't know He was missing!

Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: Yes, He was hiding behind the couch.

Q: Have you been saved by Jesus?
A: The Lord has preserved me in a tight-fitting jar.

Jesus saves, Moses invests.
 

---

Posted by Paddy O'Furniture (# 12953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boopy:
"Yes of course I need to be challenged in how I live life as a Christian. But this is not a task that has been allocated to you."

---

Ooooh, SNAP! I like it!
 

---

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
I don't know what I would do if, like Apocalypso, I'd been stalked because of a perceived un-born-again state.

However, in general, I'm an economical person. It's easier for me to give someone a minute of my time, adopt a Mona Lisa smile and answer yes to all their questions....meanwhile, inwardly I am visualizing the person with duct tape over the mouth.

sabine
 

---

Posted by Apocalypso (# 15405) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Joan Knox...

Apocalypso, c'mon now. You know what I mean--it doesn't require any spiritual discernment to know that X always talks to himself in the back pew and is definitely a little off, and giving him snarky answers would be putting yet another fearful bogeyman into his already shadowed world. Or Y, who is literally wringing her hands while she talks to you, and you know that she's a terribly worrywart and probably on six forms of Xanax, and why add another ring to those already under her eyes?

With regards to your stalker frenemy, I'd say simply the fact that he LIES to you makes him fair game for snarky treatment, the more outrageous the beter. And the stalkerish behavior is grounds to a sharp rebuke and to follow-up action if he continues to stalk. You've got a right to be left in peace. And HE may have several screws loose that need a sharp adjustment, by court order if necessary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
. . . (remind me to tell you about the sweet gentleman who walked up to our Bible study group and introduced himself as Jesus Christ.) . . .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
(remind me to tell you about the sweet gentleman who walked up to our Bible study group and introduced himself as Jesus Christ.)

---

But how will we know when he really does come?



Maybe he came again and we didn't notice.



p.s. I would have thought the obvious answer to the questions "Are you saved? Are you born again? Do you know Jesus"? would be

"Damn straight I am. You?"
 

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Posted by Jessie Phillips (# 13048) on :
 
So has anyone got any theories as to why these people go about asking other people if they're saved or not? What do they get out of it?

And more importantly - how long do they keep it up? I suspect that if you secretly stalked one of these "I'm saved and I want to share my salvation with you" people for a year or more, then, more often than not, you'll find that they get bored of it after a while.

Then again, you might get bored of watching them before they get bored of asking people if they're saved or not. So perhaps we're wrong to assume it's a permanent character trait.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
To be fair, there are evangelical Christians around who do like to dialogue with other people and to actually listen to what they have to say. I can give examples of quite bold moves in this respect from people you would not expect.

I know one chap of a very conservative frame of mind who invited some gay spokespeople to a very open and frank discussion about homosexuality and religion - and he did it in a way that respected their views and lifestyle and gave them 'the floor' as well as those who took an opposing view.

I'll admit that this sort of thing is rare in conservative circles, but it is not entirely unknown.

Equally, this sort of thing isn't restricted to evangelicals and fundamentalists (I make a distinction between the two).

I once went on a trip with some Orthodox folk when a well-known Russian icon was touring the UK. One the way there, to the embarrassment of one of my Orthodox friends, a woman accused me of 'making up my own religion' because the Anglican church allows for 'confession' but doesn't make it compulsory.

'You've got to be pretty sure of yourself to invent your own religion!' she scoffed, smugly.

'On the contrary,' I said. 'I haven't made up my own religion at all. The core of it I share with you guys and indeed derives from the teachings of the Bible and the Fathers. Just because my own tradition places less emphasis on particular aspects - such as auricular confession - doesn't mean that we don't share the same basic Faith.'

Ok, I know where she was coming from, the 'seamless robe' of Orthodoxy and all that, unpick one part and it all unravels etc ...

But the attitude struck me as very similar to that found among the fundie 'Are you saved?' brigade.
 

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Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :
 
There comes a liberating point in the Christian life where you just have to stop giving a shit about what anyone other than God thinks. I've met conservative evangelicals who think I'm a Bad Christian because I'm off message about how wonderful post substitutionary atonement is or whatever, and liberal Christians who think I'm a Bad Christian because I'm off message about how awful post substitutionary atonement is or whatever. And then there's the Catholics and Orthodox, who don't even think my church is a 'church'. After a couple of years of worrying about it I now really, really don't give a fuck.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Apocalypso:
..... and I work 40 hours / week (when I'm lucky -- it's often more) with people generally deemed by the rest of society as funny-acting, funny-looking, funny-sounding, funny-thinking or any combination thereof. My discernment skills regarding "normal" vs. "abnormal" behavior are probably permanently warped.

---

Are you sure you don't work with clergy?!

Seriously, just to say I've been valuing your contribution to this thread so far.

I have a feeling I've been subtly 'challenged' by 'washed in the blood' style parishioners, in the past, trying to work out whether their vicar is 'saved' or not. And I know many people who would just assume that as an Anglican cleric I couldn't possibly be a 'real' Christian anyway!

The terminology is, of course, perfectly scriptural and even orthodox. But it does seem to be appropriated more readily by a particular kind of Christian. Can't say it's bothered me particularly. With some it's probably part and parcel of a judgemental attitude and a personality that thrives on confrontation, and the need for personal reassurance of one's own state of superiority.

But for others, it probably is related to a sense of mission. John Wesley took every opportunity he could to 'correct' wrong ideas of salvation and tell people when they were lost, so that he could consider himself acquitted of their blood, come the day of judgement. Also a scriptural tenet, as it happens. He felt it as a deep Gospel responsibility.
 

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Posted by rosamundi (# 2495) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
"Were you saved by our Lord Jesus Christ?"

"Absolutely!"

"When?"

"Two thousand years ago."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
Here's a few snarky comments that my sisters (not the oldest sister because she's a wacko-fundie) and other friends have come up with:

Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: I didn't know He was missing!

Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: Yes, He was hiding behind the couch.

Q: Have you been saved by Jesus?
A: The Lord has preserved me in a tight-fitting jar.

Jesus saves, Moses invests.

---

I love these and am soooo stealing the tight-fitting jar one.

My (usually internal) response to the Have you found Jesus? question is "Why are you bugging me, I'm not the one who misplaced him!"

On a similar note, there is a lovely earnest couple who eat in my restaurant a couple of times a month. Every visit, they leave their tip inside one of those "Take a minute right now to accept Jesus..." pamphlets. While I appreciate the tip, I am left with a slightly offended feeling. They know me as their server, why do they make assumptions about my spiritual status?

eta: The blatant hypocrasy of some of the saved drives me batty. I actually overheard one lady talking about how she worried about her unmarried 19 year old granddaughter. "I know she's saved," the lady said, "but this is her second child..."

[ 02. May 2011, 15:22: Message edited by: BessHiggs ]
 

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :
 
This is probably the least uncivil Hell forum thread I have noticed. It almost belongs in Heaven.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
You mean I didn't add any gratuitous swearing?

Having just encountered this mindset again, I think what I'm really finding frustrating is the lack of ability to listen - to get alongside anyone, but to launch in regardless. The first episode of A History of the Christianity which was reshown last week had Diarmaid MacCulloch comparing unfavourably the recent Christian missionaries in the Far East and China to the original Eastern Orthodox expansion into the same area several hundred years before for similar reasons.

There is an arrogance, an absolute certainty of rightness within some Christians, and it's often, but not always, of a protestant fundamentalist mindset, that doesn't listen and doesn't want to hear that there might be another way, that the sure fire recipe to fix anything may not apply in this case. It's probably a way of paddling furiously and refusing to face any doubts, but that adamantine certainty that refuses to accept their way is not the only way is so frustrating to deal with.

And small group situations with strangers who need to be dealt with in the longer term are not the best place to practice many of the answers above, although they may well work on street corners.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
WHAT??! Why wouldn't you be a real Christian if you sing in a choir? That's the weirdest, most fucked up thing I've heard recently. Well, maybe not the MOST fucked-up thing, but still. Do these imbeciles give you reasons why you are not considered a Christian? Do tell. This is bizarre.

---

quote:

---

There is an arrogance, an absolute certainty of rightness within some Christians...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
WHAT??! Why wouldn't you be a real Christian if you sing in a choir? That's the weirdest, most fucked up thing I've heard recently. Well, maybe not the MOST fucked-up thing, but still. Do these imbeciles give you reasons why you are not considered a Christian? Do tell. This is bizarre.

---

Because if I was a real Christian I would sing in a worship band or play guitar, of course.

---

If I recall correctly, you lot were interfering with the work of the Spirit in your church, probably by singing Bach and Tallis. The nerve of you!
 

---

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Someone I know compares the "challenging" behavior to Klingon love -- you know, how on

quote:

---

Star Trek

---

the Klingons could only mate with one another after beating one another up.

I have been given to understand that this sort of "But are you really, really, really saved?" stuff is something that Christians of that particular theological stripe do to one another on a regular basis as a kind of group bonding and boundary-marking ritual; so we Lutherans and Anglicans, RC's Presbyterians, et al, don't need to feel singled out when they do it to us.

My favorite response to the "Are you saved?" question is, as others have noted, "Why, yes -- on a hill outside Jerusalem 2,000 years ago." If I'm asked if I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, I reply, "My accepting Jesus Christ isn't nearly as important as his accepting me...," at which point I'm usually ready to segue into the story of my Holy Baptism back in 1961 when I was a sickly little newborn in an incubator. (This is my kinder, gentler version of "Go ahead...make my day...")
 

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Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Q: are you saved?

A: only from the likes of you! (exit stage left)


I hate Hate HATE this sort of patronizing dialogue.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:

---

There is an arrogance, an absolute certainty of rightness within some Christians...

---

Ditto some atheists, socialists, conservatives, liberals, Muslims, libertarians....A percentage of the human race are just knobheads. Do we need a new hell thread every time that fact is demonstrated?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I think what I'm really finding frustrating is the[ir] lack of ability to listen

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Come off it, Yorick. You know the rules back to front by now. You can say CK's posts are crushingly boring. You can't say CK is crushingly boring. That's a C3.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

---

Barney, you're on my turf here. Kindly stop telling the denizens what they can and can't do.

Marvin
Hellhost

PS:
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Whoops! Sorry Yorick and Hell hosts.
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:


I have been given to understand that this sort of "But are you really, really, really saved?" stuff is something that Christians of that particular theological stripe do to one another on a regular basis as a kind of group bonding and boundary-marking ritual;

---

quote:

---

so we Lutherans and Anglicans, RC's Presbyterians, et al, don't need to feel singled out when they do it to us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Whoops! Sorry Yorick and Hell hosts.

---

Thanks for the laugh, Barnabas62!
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by no_prophet:
Q: are you saved?

A: only from the likes of you! (exit stage left)


I hate Hate HATE this sort of patronizing dialogue.

---

quote:

---

...if I was a real Christian I would sing in a worship band or play guitar, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Chorister said:

quote:

---

...if I was a real Christian I would sing in a worship band or play guitar, of course.

---

Making a strenuous (and possibly unHellish) attempt to be fair, I should point out that some church choirs include people who don't have any strong religious views but just love singing sacred music. This is less common in worship bands, possibly because there are more opportunities to play/sing rock music elsewhere.
Jane R

---

quote:

---

I've known too many people who are in the worship band because it's cool and it gets them girls/guys to accept that premise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rosamundi:
Someone asked me recently, with the bright and fervid gleam of someone who’s wondering where they left the matches and the big pile of wood, “are you Saved?”

To which I can only reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

---

 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rosamundi:
Someone asked me recently, with the bright and fervid gleam of someone who’s wondering where they left the matches and the big pile of wood, “are you Saved?”

To which I can only reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

---

I should really print this out. My memory for chapter and verses is crap.
 

---

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 

quote:

---

To which I can only reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:

I have been given to understand that this sort of "But are you really, really, really saved?" stuff is something that Christians of that particular theological stripe do to one another on a regular basis as a kind of group bonding and boundary-marking ritual;

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Whoops! Sorry Yorick and Hell hosts.

---

Thanks for the laugh, Barnabas62!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I think what I'm really finding frustrating is the[ir] lack of ability to listen

---

Maybe it's just because you're crushingly boring?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Excellent -- not only a keeper but a sharer!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I should really print this out. My memory for chapter and verses is crap.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
"Were you saved by our Lord Jesus Christ?"

"Absolutely!"

[snip]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I find it interesting that no Real Christians[tm] have come forward to defend their practice of throwing down the soteriological gauntlet to unsuspecting others.

---

I suspect that people who ask questions like that would find the ship a very uncongenial place.

Moo
 

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Posted by Apocalypso (# 15405) on :
 


Sad commentary on the population of the Ship . . .
 

---

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
My older daughter moved to Halifax to attend King's, and became enthralled with the rather high-church style of their chapel. So she started attending early service each day, as well as learning the ropes for the altar guild.

On being stopped by a lady-with-tracts on Quinpool Road one day, her response was "Well I do attend church 8 times a week. Does that count?"

Which left the lady in question flummoxed, because she'd never actually caught a live one before, and didn't know what to do.

[ 04. May 2011, 01:27: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by kankucho:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
"Were you saved by our Lord Jesus Christ?"

"Absolutely!"

[snip]

---

(Subsequent snappy relies also noted)


Isn't the correct answer "Time will tell"? How does any mortal actually know whether they've been 'saved' or not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Whoops! Sorry Yorick and Hell hosts.

---

Thanks for the laugh, Barnabas62!

---

Marvin is still laughing! I may live it down eventually. Still, it provokes an idea or two for the next H & A week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Apocalypso:


Sad commentary on the population of the Ship . . .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I think what I'm really finding frustrating is the[ir] lack of ability to listen

---

Maybe it's just because you're crushingly boring?

---

And umpteen Purgatory threads puffing off your superiority because you don't believe the nonsense Christians believe, or the entirely predictable personal attack on QLib or me whenever we post in Hell because you think we're female and we've actually dared to criticise the oh-so-wonderful-alpha-male-that-is-Yorick is interesting?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:

---

There is an arrogance, an absolute certainty of rightness within some Christians...

---

Ditto some atheists, socialists, conservatives, liberals, Muslims, libertarians....A percentage of the human race are just knobheads. Do we need a new hell thread every time that fact is demonstrated?

---

But it fits so well with "how those Christians love one another" and "love your neighbour" and "love is always patient and kind". Not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rosamundi:
Someone asked me recently, with the bright and fervid gleam of someone who’s wondering where they left the matches and the big pile of wood, “are you Saved?”

To which I can only reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

---

All of those quotes are from the Epistles.....must be a damnation fetish.....

The Gospels are really much more fun....
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
I’m wondering what bearing you suppose my being interesting or not has on your being such a crushing bore. Perhaps you’re stupid enough to think that, by being uninteresting to you, I am somehow unqualified to comment on your being crushingly boring?

---

I'm no expert at these things -- God knows -- but if I had to wager a guess, I'd say it was a long-winded and peevish way of saying:

That's like the pot calling the kettle black.
 

---

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :
 
Well yeah, and my point is that black kettles are in a uniquely good position to opine on the colour of pots, so you'd think I ought to know.
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Point taken.
 

---

Posted by LanceWilkins (# 16393) on :
 
When one Christian judges another we are in an holier-than-thou Game. Best avoided.

However, if a compassionate preacher of great integrity (and there are very few of these), without singling out any one individual, gives a challenging sermon to a congregation, then this can be good.

In fact, I think that the only worth while sermons are the challenging ones.


 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
... I cannot imagine what makes you think the fact that you and the herewith-irrelevant QLib are apparently women constitutes a particular reason for me to attack you both whenever you appear in Hell...

---

quote:

---

I don’t think you’re a crushing bore because you’re a Christian or female- I admire and adore many of both, far more so than I do their opposites.

---

• I can't (be bothered) think how to argue with what you're saying
• I'm embarrassed to find myself agreeing with you
• I'm a self-obssessed twat who thinks other people exist for my amusement

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
…the reason why I feel obliged to refer to the fact that poster X is black almost every fucking time I post is because.... um.. er....

---

quote:

---

a) You’re right: I am a sexist chauvinistic misogynist, who, for some obscure but nefarious reason, particularly ‘singles out’ you and CK to criticise above all other women aboard

---

well done Yorick. You'll feel better now you've confessed.

(is this the first step in a programme?)
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Hey, how come a thread, which was supposed to be all about Challenging Fellow Christians, ends up being All About Yorick?

(maybe you'd better not answer that)
 

---

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :
 
Meh, 'tis but a minor tangent. They happen.
 

---

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Somehow, a vision of paper-training a Yorkie not to pee all over the house just sprung into my mind.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Oh dear! Yorick, my mental image of you as cabana boy has just received a companion picture. This.Is.Not.Good.
 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
..I do not particularly ‘single out’ you and CK to criticise above anybody aboard, female or not ....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Hey, how come a thread, which was supposed to be all about Challenging Fellow Christians, ends up being All About Yorick?

(maybe you'd better not answer that)

---

Because people bite each and every time.

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
here you are back again like a doggie to its vomit… [with] your hijacking of threads by over-use of unimaginative put downs and various references to peri-menopausal symptoms.

… For Christ's sake, grow the fuck up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Oh dear! Yorick, my mental image of you as cabana boy has just received a companion picture. This.Is.Not.Good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
All I did was post one witty little line...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I find it interesting that no Real Christians[tm] have come forward to defend their practice of throwing down the soteriological gauntlet to unsuspecting others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Apocalypso:


Sad commentary on the population of the Ship . . .

---

Hey, now be fair, folks. I did post a very sensible apologia for John Wesley's very in-your-face style of evangelism. I'm willing to believe that the spirit of Wesley lives on in some of the others who follow that style.

But this is Hell, so it's maybe not that surprizing that replies are a little one-sided?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fineline:

And it's the same sort of thing. The fact that one is about being 'saved' and one is about being right, or 'more right', is really just semantics. It's still patronising, and about dividing people into groups, and setting your own group up as the better one. But this is what humans do and have always done, in all sorts of contexts, not just religious.

---

But I'm afraid it's actually true. Us liberals really are smarter. Simple as that.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
You make a good point, Fineline. Which is more than can be said for Yorick ...

Thinking about it ... I've pulled you up on stuff on these boards before now, but I would like to think that I've taken the time to listen and find out what your 'take' is on things. At least, I hope so.
 

---

Posted by Jessie Phillips (# 13048) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LanceWilkins:
When one Christian judges another we are in an holier-than-thou Game. Best avoided.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LanceWilkins:
When one Christian judges another we are in an holier-than-thou Game. Best avoided.

---

Oh I don't know. Games can be fun.

---

Playing with other people in a hurtful manner is a fucked-up idea of what constitutes fun.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Well in that case there's nothing for it - we'll just have to send up everyone. Heaven help us if we were ever to show favoritism.
 

---

Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
Just yesterday I was accosted (on line) by a guy in a social "war" game I play. He is the host of the alliance I belong to. I guess the Opportunity-To-Save Door flew upon when I said innocently & foolishly 'there weren't many in church today'.

He asked what church & I old him, Episcopal. And then it all came gushing out. "Do you believe that Jesus is God?" Why on earth I felt compelled to answer, I do not know. Then it was "I'm so sorry that you're a victim of the LIES that The Church has fed people for a thousand-some years, especially The Catholic Church! Jesus is The SON of God, NOT God." And then came the proof texts.

Plus, he said, "I feel I ought to tell you that I'm an Ordained Minster, so I know what I'm talking about". Then: may I have your reallife email so we can continue this important conversation?" NO. What an ass.

Why don't these jerks pick on people who are not already Christians? The whole thing was very upsetting to me. And why didn't I sense the very first danger-sign and tell the guy to STFU?
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Maybe you were moved by the Spirit to save him.
 

---

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Why don't these jerks pick on people who are not already Christians? ...And why didn't I ...tell the guy to STFU?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Plus, he said, "I feel I ought to tell you that I'm an Ordained Minster, so I know what I'm talking about".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Plus, he said, "I feel I ought to tell you that I'm an Ordained Minster, so I know what I'm talking about".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:

He asked what church & I old him, Episcopal. And then it all came gushing out. "Do you believe that Jesus is God?" Why on earth I felt compelled to answer, I do not know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kankucho:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Plus, he said, "I feel I ought to tell you that I'm an Ordained Minster, so I know what I'm talking about".

---

I wouldn't take that sort of claim too seriously from someone I only 'knew' online.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kankucho:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Plus, he said, "I feel I ought to tell you that I'm an Ordained Minster, so I know what I'm talking about".

---

I wouldn't take that sort of claim too seriously from someone I only 'knew' online.

---

I didn't 'take it seriously'. HE was seriously trying to impress me with his superiority as a "real" Christian. I mentioned it as a sample of the garbage he was 'laying on my heart'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Forgive my ignorance, but what denomination believes that Jesus is the Son of God, but not actually God?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kankucho:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Plus, he said, "I feel I ought to tell you that I'm an Ordained Minster, so I know what I'm talking about".

---

I wouldn't take that sort of claim too seriously from someone I only 'knew' online.

---

I didn't 'take it seriously'. HE was seriously trying to impress me with his superiority as a "real" Christian. I mentioned it as a sample of the garbage he was 'laying on my heart'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geneviève:
Pearl,
you were playing a war game--you should have just taken him out!! End of problem, and if he was on your side, that's what friendly fire is for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Welcome to the Ship. But Hell is *not* the place for newbies. You won't understand the culture, you'll get hurt, and you'll leave a mess for someone to clean up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Welcome to the Ship. But Hell is *not* the place for newbies. You won't understand the culture, you'll get hurt, and you'll leave a mess for someone to clean up.

---

Actually, that's what it used to be before my cadre of chuckling chums took over. Now it's become a poorly rehearsed highschool comedy act amongst social rejects. You know the crew - the skinny guy with thick glasses who always gets slammed into a locker, the fat girl with halitosis, spandex and multicolored hair, the tough gamer kid who makes up for his lack of social skills by killing NPCs in his parents' basement, the pissed-off girl who's always blaming the guys for dumping her, and the ever-present pseudo-intellectual geek who keeps dictionary.com open in a tab.

Oh, for the good old days before everything went to shit.

---

And which character were *you* in high school, hmm?
 

---

Posted by Alfred E. Neuman (# 6855) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
...how am i going to get hurt, the way it sounds is that it has turned into a cosy little club where as i said before the same few stroke each others egos with repetative abuse based on prejudice and bias...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by irish_lord99:
FYI, there are different types of hell threads, on some we engage in verbal combat with each other while in others we rant about the rest of the world as a more collective group... this is the latter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
And which character were *you* in high school, hmm?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Welcome to the Ship. But Hell is *not* the place for newbies. You won't understand the culture, you'll get hurt, and you'll leave a mess for someone to clean up.

---

Actually, that's what it used to be before my cadre of chuckling chums took over. Now it's become a poorly rehearsed highschool comedy act amongst social rejects. You know the crew - the skinny guy with thick glasses who always gets slammed into a locker, the fat girl with halitosis, spandex and multicolored hair, the tough gamer kid who makes up for his lack of social skills by killing NPCs in his parents' basement, the pissed-off girl who's always blaming the guys for dumping her, and the ever-present pseudo-intellectual geek who keeps dictionary.com open in a tab.

Oh, for the good old days before everything went to shit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
to be honest I think I will give you what you want and go elsewhere

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Hell is Glee?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
well at least Alfred E. lives up to my expectations of getting a roasting, pity the rest are such a damp squib who are best described as Alfred E. did. What a shower posting on here has been a real disappointment, pathetic whinging rather than how it is billed... guess that makes it hell to me as I expected some life not a yawn.... hope you lot aren't as sad on other areas of the site as you come across as a bunch of sad losers sitting on a tuffit like little Miss Muppet but if you had any curds and whey it would have been curdled.

not surprised you get stopped and critised and asked if you are saved as you need someone to save you...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
well at least Alfred E. lives up to my expectations of getting a roasting, pity the rest are such a damp squib who are best described as Alfred E. did. What a shower posting on here has been a real disappointment, pathetic whinging rather than how it is billed... guess that makes it hell to me as I expected some life not a yawn.... hope you lot aren't as sad on other areas of the site as you come across as a bunch of sad losers sitting on a tuffit like little Miss Muppet but if you had any curds and whey it would have been curdled.

not surprised you get stopped and critised and asked if you are saved as you need someone to save you...

---

GOD HERSELF has arrived to set us straight!



Holy, holy, holy, Lord, God of power and might, heaven and earth are full of your glory,
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
well at least Alfred E. lives up to my expectations of getting a roasting,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
well at least Alfred E. lives up to my expectations of getting a roasting, pity the rest are such a damp squib who are best described as Alfred E. did. What a shower posting on here has been a real disappointment, pathetic whinging rather than how it is billed... guess that makes it hell to me as I expected some life not a yawn.... hope you lot aren't as sad on other areas of the site as you come across as a bunch of sad losers sitting on a tuffit like little Miss Muppet but if you had any curds and whey it would have been curdled.

not surprised you get stopped and critised and asked if you are saved as you need someone to save you...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
So sorry we don't come up to your high expectations. Is that what life in Hull has led you to expect?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
So sorry we don't come up to your high expectations. Is that what life in Hull has led you to expect?

---

Incoherent fucktard.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
So sorry we don't come up to your high expectations. Is that what life in Hull has led you to expect?

---

Incoherent fucktard.

---

Sioni isn't that bad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
By all means get a room, Evensong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
So sorry we don't come up to your high expectations. Is that what life in Hull has led you to expect?

---

Incoherent fucktard.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
well at least Alfred E. lives up to my expectations of getting a roasting, pity the rest are such a damp squib who are best described as Alfred E. did. What a shower posting on here has been a real disappointment, pathetic whinging rather than how it is billed... guess that makes it hell to me as I expected some life not a yawn.... hope you lot aren't as sad on other areas of the site as you come across as a bunch of sad losers sitting on a tuffit like little Miss Muppet but if you had any curds and whey it would have been curdled.

not surprised you get stopped and critised and asked if you are saved as you need someone to save you...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
By all means get a room, Evensong.

---

That the best you can do?

You have been away a while.

Chasing fluffy bunnies?

Rusty mate.

Fear not. We'll have you back in shape in no time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
sitting on a tuffit like little Miss Muppet but if you had any curds and whey it would have been curdled.

---

A typo or deliberate?!

(And what are curdled curds?)
 

---

Posted by badger@thesett (# 16422) on :
 
oooo this is better, more what you would expect from the rules and guidelines, you know I didn't expect hell to be such a gentle love in

still not had a reply as to who decides what type of hell thread it is and how people are meant to know, would of thought you would have a private board set up if you just want your love in and keep everyone else out

thought hell was for letting off steam and irritation, maybe some people should re read the rules as they seem to have forgotten them.

come on you told me I would be messed up by being here, so far all I have had is as bad as being mauled by a bunch of 1 day old pussies
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
I thought you were going somewhere else.
 

---

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :
 
Is he still here? Jeez...
 

---

Posted by Apocalypso (# 15405) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
It's a one syllable word.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
oooo this is better, more what you would expect from the rules and guidelines, you know I didn't expect hell to be such a gentle love in
....thought hell was for letting off steam and irritation, maybe some people should re read the rules as they seem to have forgotten them.

come on you told me I would be messed up by being here, so far all I have had is as bad as being mauled by a bunch of 1 day old pussies

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Is he still here? Jeez...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Is he still here? Jeez...

---

Attention whore.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
would of thought

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I thought you were going somewhere else.

---

Aw, but he's cute! Can we keep him, Dad. Huh? Can we? Can we? Can we? Can we keep him, Dad. Huh? Dad? Huh? Can we keep him?
 

---

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
You're not the one who's going to have to clean up after his messes.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by badger@thesett:
oooo this is better, more what you would expect from the rules and guidelines, you know I didn't expect hell to be such a gentle love in

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Aw, but he's cute! Can we keep him, Dad. Huh? Can we? Can we? Can we? Can we keep him, Dad. Huh? Dad? Huh? Can we keep him?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh FFS. Another one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
I thought this subject was a dead horse.

---

quote:

---

I am one of minority of Evos on the ship and have been for on here for nearly 11 years.

---

quote:

---

I can't believe we are still arguing over this.

---

quote:

---

I think it would be good for Curiosity Killed to follow his/her first instinct and post a modified version in Perg then we can discuss it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
So how about actually trying to understand our motives and reasoning before you diss us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
Interesting. I too don't like it when accosted by fellow Evos who are not prepared to listen,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
There are a few Evos (certainly in the UK) who are in your face. Most of us are thoughtful, caring people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
Many are community minded (our church is a centre for Christians Against Poverty who are a debt advice and help organisation, and various other communty based projects). Actions speak more than words or argument and we are ready to give the reasons for our faith if those actions lead to questions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
Where do they do that? Kerygmania, I suppose.

Oh, don't tell me it was only during H&A day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
Interesting. I too don't like it when accosted by fellow Evos who are not prepared to listen,

---

I thought that was the definition of an Evo?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
There are a few Evos (certainly in the UK) who are in your face. Most of us are thoughtful, caring people.

---

I thought being in your face was also the definition of an Evo?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
Many are community minded (our church is a centre for Christians Against Poverty who are a debt advice and help organisation, and various other communty based projects). Actions speak more than words or argument and we are ready to give the reasons for our faith if those actions lead to questions.

---

Now that sounds like a lovely wishy washy liberal to me.

You sure you're not confused?

Like, maybe, the Ship's changed you (God forbid) after all these years?

You know, like, gave you a brain?

---

I think maybe evo in Australia is quite different from evo in the UK. At least it seems to be from chatting to my Aussie husband. Over here it was evos who were quite prominent in getting fairtrade products mainstream and certainly you'd expect it in the churches (not the case in Australia as far as I am aware). There are a lot of social justice projects started and supported by evos. Locally its mainly the evos that run and support the homeless soup runs and the like.

I get the impression its more polarised in Australia (Sydney Anglicans and all that). Here I think its about 1/3 of the C of E is evo in all its stripes and flavours. I'm not evo myself, but used to be and don't at all recognise your description of most UK evos I've met.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
I've rather given up with all these silly titles to paint our theological positions. They seem to mean bugger all, and like you say, don't travel across countries.

The churches I have always attended are very into fair trade coffee and social justice. And I always thought we were branded wishy washy liberal.

Had an interesting experience last Sunday tho. Had to attend a Sudanese service.

One gent came up to me afterwards, shook hands, very friendly then left. The Sudanese woman I was previously talking to said "oh, that's our evangelist".



Here at least, there is very much the idea that they are "in your face", "Jesus loves you but everybody else thinks you're a dickhead" kind of bible basher. Very cringe-worthy. Lots of hot air but little substance.

But that's another useless generalisation really......I'm actually part of a group now that has three or four people that would call themselves Evangelicals.

I've realised they're rather nice, if a bit misguided. (*insert smug face here*)
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
Where do they do that? Kerygmania, I suppose.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

I can't believe we are still arguing over this.

---

I can't believe Evos are still doing shit like CK describes.

---

I can't believe that you can't believe that.
 

---

Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
I am not saying there are no in your face evos in the UK, there definatly are but they are not the majority. The problem also comes when you define in your face (as has been pointed out). What is in your face for one person may not be for another.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
I am not saying there are no in your face evos in the UK, there definatly are but they are not the majority. The problem also comes when you define in your face (as has been pointed out). What is in your face for one person may not be for another.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
Where do they do that? Kerygmania, I suppose.

---

Come to the dark side Yorick.....we know you want to......

I wouldn't hurt you.


Much.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:
Where do they do that? Kerygmania, I suppose.

---

Come to the dark side Yorick.....we know you want to......

I wouldn't hurt you.


Much.

---

Yeah, but it wasn’t especially funny when you posted exactly the same thing (complete with the same link to the same photo) just eleven weeks ago, in my Yorick, come and preen here Hellcall by chive. (That thread was deleted, but it may still be found in Google cache if you want to check how stupid you are. I did. It's very).

---

quote:

---

If the van is rocking, don't bother knocking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yorick:

Yeah, but it wasn’t especially funny when you posted exactly the same thing (complete with the same link to the same photo) just eleven weeks ago, in my Yorick, come and preen here Hellcall by chive. (That thread was deleted, but it may still be found in Google cache if you want to check how stupid you are. I did. It's very).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Why don't these jerks pick on people who are not already Christians? The whole thing was very upsetting to me. And why didn't I sense the very first danger-sign and tell the guy to STFU?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Learn to smile and say "bless your heart" to them. Nothing annoys them so much.

---

And to other people you say, "They mean well, bless their hearts."

Moo
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Tried that.

But then he posted:

"im happy for u and your god he needs all the souls he can get"



So my tongue could not keep still and I responded:

"Thank you *****. What a kind and insightful thing to say. Your particular understanding of the world obviously serves you well to imbue you with such wisdom.
 

---

Posted by Stoker (# 11939) on :
 
Is this meant to be a hell thread?

Please allow me a minute to just interrupt the mutual ass kissing, back slapping and high fives for a minute and just ask a question or two.

The title and OP refer to ‘fellow Christians’. This implies that for most contributors here you see yourself as a ‘Christian’. Ergo, you hold to a set of core doctrines regarding Jesus Christ, the key of which is John 3 v 16 (you may cry ‘cliché’, but it’s the gospel in a nutshell)

If Jesus Christ means anything to us, he should mean everything to us. (cliché, but true).

In the great commission, Jesus called Christians to make disciples, and in the epistles, especially the pastoral letters, Paul exhorts the teaching and upholding of sound doctrine.

It is therefore entirely reasonable to expect Christians to 1.) Share their faith with others and 2.) Teach, encourage and exhort each other to keep sound doctrine.

Your beef is with the messengers, not the message. But we can’t really separate the two – as the latter comes by the former. Our job is to prayerfully try and help each other to get it right, not make more divides or create ‘them’ and ‘us’.

[ 04. June 2011, 05:48: Message edited by: Stoker ]
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
And the most effective messengers, Jesus, St Aidan, St Francis met people where they were and walked alongside people, They didn't just march in and declare everything wrong without listening first.

Parallels with you, Stoker, much?
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
What was that famous line?

Preach the gospel always. When necessary use words.
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Learn to smile and say "bless your heart" to them. Nothing annoys them so much.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Learn to smile and say "bless your heart" to them. Nothing annoys them so much.

---

When dealing with folks who are as far gone off the reality scale as Lamb Chopped, I say "Bless their little cotton socks." ...it does give them a small taste of what it is like when the boot is on the other foot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
... Recent exchanges between us have convinced me that she contains a mixture of arrogance, smugness and blinkeredness matched only by the likes of IngoB.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Yes. As I understood it, Lamb Chopped was suggesting, in her usual smug manner that "Bless your heart" would be an appropriately superior response to those atheists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Further clarification: Lamb Chopped is not the worst, but she's up there with the worst.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Tried that.

But then he posted:

"im happy for u and your god he needs all the souls he can get"



So my tongue could not keep still and I responded:

"Thank you *****. What a kind and insightful thing to say. Your particular understanding of the world obviously serves you well to imbue you with such wisdom.

---

quote:

---

...Lamb Chopped...a mixture of arrogance, smugness and blinkeredness matched only by the likes of IngoB.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

...Lamb Chopped...a mixture of arrogance, smugness and blinkeredness matched only by the likes of IngoB.

---

Projection, thy name is RadicalWhig.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Radical Whig, I take it the ice cream soda is off?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
FFS just call her to hell if that's what you want to do - and preview the OP before you post it instead of "and another thing" on repeat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
...Also, that gay parents are like wahabis.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

...Lamb Chopped...a mixture of arrogance, smugness and blinkeredness matched only by the likes of IngoB.

---

Projection, thy name is RadicalWhig.

---

Acctually, when it comes to attributing her own faults to her opponents, Lamb Chopped is the star (although it is a common Christian fault).

It's so typical of Christians to brand others with their own faults. So often accuse atheists of "arrogance" or "incivility", just because the Christians don't succeed in getting their own way ALL of the time - how arrogant can you get?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
...Also, that gay parents are like wahabis.

---

That's what I'm talkin' about.

Chop the little adopted bastards' hands off if they get in the cookie jar.

---

Oh.

Psst! You've skipped over from Muddy's thread with the leo quote. But then both threads are way off the rails anyway.
 

---

Posted by Stoker (# 11939) on :
 
------------------------
By Curiosity killed…

And the most effective messengers, Jesus, St Aidan, St Francis met people where they were and walked alongside people, They didn't just march in and declare everything wrong without listening first.
------------------------

Well said. You have a very wise point and there have been many other effective messengers throughout the centuries. By the rather hostile end to your post, I take that you are accusing me of that type of behaviour. I’d be interested if you could clarify exactly why you think I march in and declare everything wrong without listening first, especially when I think the sentiment I expressed in my previous post is generally constructive, truthful and balanced.

Now as for your allegory of meeting people where they are and walking beside them, it is quite right, but you miss out half the story. As you have chosen to use the example of Jesus, let’s follow it up. Jesus in the gospels does meet people where they are and listens to them, but there is always a follow up. He always challenges them to look at their lives in the light of the gospel, he calls for change, repentance and taking up the cross. He promises hardship and suffering on this earth. So yes, the first thing he does is to meet people where they are, but he never leaves people where they are unless they refuse his call. I’d be interested to see an example where he doesn’t.

And while we’re on the subject, in Mark’s gospel, the very first thing Jesus does in his public ministry is “proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

-----------------------------------------
By Evensong:

Preach the gospel always. When necessary use words.
------------------------

Yep. Another well used saying and I agree wholeheartedly. Words are nearly always necessary in some shape or form, it’s just a question of using the right ones in the right way at the right time with the right motives.
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The traits that really, really push our own buttons are usually ones we have in spades. Just sayin'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The traits that really, really push our own buttons are usually ones we have in spades. Just sayin'.

---

That's sometimes true, but not in this case.

I might be a bluff, no-nonsense sort of chap, who sometimes overplays his hand. I might be a bullshit-sniffing anti-clerical who has finally lost patience with Christian arrogance. I might have pretty strong opinons and not be afraid to voice them, sometimes insensitively. I might use language in a strident, even abrasive way, when I think the iconoclastic effect is more important than building sympathy for my position amongst opponents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Tried that.

But then he posted:

"im happy for u and your god he needs all the souls he can get"



So my tongue could not keep still and I responded:

"Thank you *****. What a kind and insightful thing to say. Your particular understanding of the world obviously serves you well to imbue you with such wisdom.

---

I'm trying to imagine, "Bless your heart", being said with an Australian accent. You really have to be from the Southern United States or Kentucky to get the full effect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

And I don't overreact to her, even though our areas of disagreement would cover a football stadium the size of Minnesota (including the parking lot). Tells you something right there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
It's so typical of the sort of condescending, holier-than-fucking-thou, superior, smug, self-rightous attitude that Lamb Chopped so often uses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Not to mention the flounce you did a while back, cause Christians are all so nasty. Might want to have stayed away a little longer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Not to mention the flounce you did a while back, cause Christians are all so nasty. Might want to have stayed away a little longer.

---

I took three months off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Not to mention the flounce you did a while back, cause Christians are all so nasty. Might want to have stayed away a little longer.

---

I took three months off.

---

quote:

---

* passively resists fulfilling routine social and occupational tasks
* complains of being misunderstood and unappreciated by others
* is sullen and argumentative
* unreasonably criticizes and scorns authority
* expresses envy and resentment toward those apparently more fortunate
* voices exaggerated and persistent complaints of personal misfortune
* alternates between hostile defiance and contrition

(From DSM IV)

---

For the condition to be pathological DSM suggests at least four of these have ot be present.

RadicalWhig, viewed against those criteria how on earth do you make out that Lamb Chopped is passive-aggressive? I mean, there are times when all of us show some of those attributes, but where is your sense of balance?

BTW, I'm sure you aren't p-a either, but you do strike me as unusually aggressive at present. You seem to me to argue a lot better when you're not taking a pop at all and sundry.
 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
I can remember having a go at Lamb Chopped and one or two others for being passive-aggressive. Whatever it was that sparked that off, it came mainly from only reading stuff in Hell. Being able to spend more time in the time-sink that is Purg has modified my views.
Or they've improved.
Or I have improved/ mellowed/ whatever.
Or any combination of the above.

Maybe it's about looking for offence. If you look for offence you will find it. But it is fundamentally fucking absurd to say that all Christians are arrogant. It's almost racist in its stupidity. What all of them? You don't find any Christians who are irritatingly meek, for example?

I think you need to distinguish between the fact that the claims of orthodox (small o) Christianity could be viewed as arrogant (Classic response, which I agree is fucking annoying: But it's not arrogant, it's just The Truth™ - too bad you don't like it ) and arrogance as a personal quality in individuals.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Whoah. I so got that wrong. Mousetheif has accused me of passive agressive behavior before.

I always thought that it was sometimes I was nice and sometimes I was not so nice.


Good thing we got that definition sorted out.

Way too many scientifically unsubstantiated insults flying around these pages.

I mean really, I'm a doctor's wife. Get it right.
 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Way too many scientifically unsubstantiated insults flying around these pages.

---

You think DSM is scientific?


This is the book (in earlier versions) that went along with the construct of homosexuality as a mental illness.

I wouldn't say you were passive-aggressive, but you do a sort of whimsical thing sometimes which I think is intended to be funny but has the capacity to reduce me to homicidal mania.
In Christian love.

[To be fair, you don't seem to do it so often now. Or maybe I've just learned to scroll past. Or maybe... (see above) ]
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I've disagreed with Lamb Chopped occasionally, but I've always thought she was pretty genuine in her posting. Certainly not manipulative or passive-aggressive.

Maybe some of it comes down to the 'accent' or tone of voice that plays in one's head when reading a post?
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
I think you need to distinguish between the fact that the claims of orthodox (small o) Christianity could be viewed as arrogant (Classic response, which I agree is fucking annoying: But it's not arrogant, it's just The Truth™ - too bad you don't like it ) and arrogance as a personal quality in individuals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
As part of my normal desire to be helpful, here are 7 signs of passive-aggressive behaviour...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
As part of my normal desire to be helpful, here are 7 signs of passive-aggressive behaviour...

---

The term might has a specific medical use, but it also has a general cultural use.

Like weight. We all know (or, rather, hazily recall from schoolboy Physics) that in scientific terms objects have mass, and that only gravity gives them weight, but we still all talk in general terms about how much things weigh.

---

quote:

---

Originally ejaculated by RadicalWhig:
So often accuse atheists of "arrogance" or "incivility", just because the Christians don't succeed in getting their own way ALL of the time - how arrogant can you get?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
As part of my normal desire to be helpful, here are 7 signs of passive-aggressive behaviour...

---

The term might has a specific medical use, but it also has a general cultural use.

Like weight. We all know (or, rather, hazily recall from schoolboy Physics) that in scientific terms objects have mass, and that only gravity gives them weight, but we still all talk in general terms about how much things weigh.

---

Spiffy's right to wave a health warning re DSM in general. However, in this case I thought the definition used pretty colloquial language (rather than psycho-babble). In fact, the pointers struck me as a pretty good description of the sorts of behaviour we describe, colloquially, as passive aggressive. Precious little of which is even remotely manifest in Lamb Chop's posts on this thread.

So I reckon you're just wriggling. Much easier to concede that you may have overstated.
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Face it Radical Whig, la vie en rouge has your number. You're just pissed off that LC won't respond to your own aggressive assertions tit-for-tat, so you label her responses "passive aggression" so you won't feel like the jerk you are, twisting in the wind alone.
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 
Nah, I didn't overplay. LC acted towards me like typically smug, condescending, patronising little Christian bitch.

Of course, I forgive her, bless her little cotton socks.

ETA: Just in case anyone doesn't get it, the above line is written in a deliberately snide, twisting, hypocritical "Christian" voice, just so you can see what I'm up against.

Sheesh!

[ 06. June 2011, 00:43: Message edited by: RadicalWhig ]
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
AFAICT, what you call LC’s passive-aggression is just her refusing to rise to the bait that you keep giving her.

You start off pontificating about how we all know that no rational, educated, non-delusional human being could possibly believe in the truth claims of Christianity as anything other than a fairytale, and LC quite reasonably points out that she believes precisely that and isn’t delusional as far as she can tell.

When you patronise her by saying “no, but you don’t believe that really because it’s obviously too stupid”, instead of descending to your level, she keeps the moral high ground by offering you ice-cream soda. And now you’re ticked because she’s shown herself to be a better person than you (or me for that matter – I would have told you to bugger off).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Nah, I didn't overplay. LC acted towards me like typically smug, condescending, patronising little Christian bitch.

Of course, I forgive her, bless her little cotton socks.

ETA: Just in case anyone doesn't get it, the above line is written in a deliberately snide, twisting, hypocritical "Christian" voice, just so you can see what I'm up against.

Sheesh!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Thinking about it more, RC,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Thinking about it more, RW, there is no way a Christian can ever win with you.

---

quote:

---

Those who are judgmental and openly criticize your beliefs deserve scorn and condemnation from you

---

quote:

---

..and those who disagree with you, and refuse to engage in a war of words with you, responding in kindness are smug, self-righteous bitches and bastards.

---

quote:

---

The problem really, is any disagreement with you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Thinking about it more, RW, there is no way a Christian can ever win with you.

---

I think the problem is that I am still in shock, after 13 years or thereabouts as a professing Christian, that I was the only one who realised it was all a story - a myth that gives meaning, an beautiful, instructive fantasy; everyone else seemed to think it was real and take it literally. They must be barking.

quote:

---

Those who are judgmental and openly criticize your beliefs deserve scorn and condemnation from you

---

No, not really. I can cope with that quite well. Sometimes, we even manage to get somewhere, although it seems that I can't really understand much of what they say.

quote:

---

..and those who disagree with you, and refuse to engage in a war of words with you, responding in kindness are smug, self-righteous bitches and bastards.

---

Kindness, is it? Kindness! Ha. Nope, it's smugness. And it is strikes me as cowardly.

quote:

---

The problem really, is any disagreement with you.

---

No. I'm actually ok with disagreement. I don't expect people to agree with me on all sorts of things, and I know that my opinons on a range of issues are minority ones. It's no big deal.

What is a big deal is when people REALLY, ACTUALLY, believe in magic biscuits and talking snakes, and then expect to be taken seriously. They wonder why I laugh at them. But really, why wouldn't you laugh at them. They are being absurd, but they get really upset when this is pointed out to them. Why? What makes them so prickly about it?

Surely an appropriate response when confronted with a "Come off it, are you batshit crazy or what?" would be, "No, of course I don't really believe it, not in any real, literal sense - of course I realise that it is all just a grown-up fairy story; but it is a very good fairy-story, and it provides a good basis by which to live, so I sort of go along with it, just like all the others".

But no. To my continuing surprise, that is never said. Instead they continue to claim to really believe it - its as if their minds were warped, and their ability to distinguish fantasy from reality removed. Isn't that just a little bit scary? Isn't it also laughable. And mind-boggling? And just plain weird? And yet, at the same time, really interesting?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
No. I'm actually ok with disagreement. I don't expect people to agree with me on all sorts of things, and I know that my opinons on a range of issues are minority ones. It's no big deal.

What is a big deal is when people REALLY, ACTUALLY, believe in magic biscuits and talking snakes, and then expect to be taken seriously. They wonder why I laugh at them. But really, why wouldn't you laugh at them. They are being absurd, but they get really upset when this is pointed out to them. Why? What makes them so prickly about it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I am still in shock, after 13 years or thereabouts as a professing Christian, that I was the only one who realised it was all a story
(my emphasis)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
Allegory.
–noun, plural -ries.
1. a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.

Embrace it, RW. Let it become One with your tedious reality.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
...we don't have a screw loose. We are actually quite balanced, functional members of society. / / You are the one indulging in a fantasy - by claiming that rational human beings don't ever believe that sort of nonsense, even when faced with people who prove your assertion to be demonstrably, palpably false.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Why hang around repeating the same thing over and over and over again to a bunch of mad people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
But I think RW is positing something almost (but not quite) like Catch-22 and that is: However sane you may appear, if you believe in the literal truth of some/all/any biblical events, you are demonstrably not sane.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Nah, I didn't overplay. LC acted towards me like typically smug, condescending, patronising little Christian bitch.

Of course, I forgive her, bless her little cotton socks.

ETA: Just in case anyone doesn't get it, the above line is written in a deliberately snide, twisting, hypocritical "Christian" voice, just so you can see what I'm up against.

Sheesh!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MSHB:
Rather reminds me of the proud mother who said "There's my Johnny, marching in the band. And he is the only one in step!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
Or he just doesn't have anyone else to hassle.

---

He likes to feel smugly superior to all us supernaturalists. Why wouldn't he hang around and feed his ravenously hungry ego?
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I think it's one of those new-convert things. Haven't we all known (or been ) one of those baby Christians who stomp their little feet at people who refuse to be "saved" on their baby Christian terms? Come on, say the Sinner's Prayer! How can they be so blind who will not see? Oh, the humanity!

Radical Whig reminds me quite a lot of ol' Squiggle Andrew, but I don't recall RW being as rude and arrogant as a theist as Andrew was as an Orthodox. But I guess he's making up for lost time.
 

---

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Squiggle Andrew was always convinced he was a 100% correct and everybody else was wrong. Even when what he believed dramatically changed, the thought that he might be wrong twice never occurred to him. It amazes me how many people go from one extreme viewpoint to another.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 256) on :
 
Squiggle Andrew's apostasy was remarkable in that not only did he swap One True Faith (followers = 2, one of whom was Squiggle) for One True Non-Faith, but that he became more tolerant of believers in a pitying Olympian way.

Actually the whole thread reminds of the man I saw outside St Mary's Cathedral on Easter Sunday. He was holding a placard that read "I think therefore I am an atheist" . Next to him stood a lady handing out what looked to be Chick tracts. She said to him "You won't get anywhere with these people by insulting their beliefs."

[ 07. June 2011, 02:50: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MSHB:
Rather reminds me of the proud mother who said "There's my Johnny, marching in the band. And he is the only one in step!"

---

I am definitely using that one. Both for its original point, and also for proving that musical ability is at least partly genetic.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Squiggle Andrew was always convinced he was a 100% correct and everybody else was wrong. Even when what he believed dramatically changed, the thought that he might be wrong twice never occurred to him. It amazes me how many people go from one extreme viewpoint to another.

---

quote:

---

RadicalWhig jumps the shark:
LC acted towards me like typically smug, condescending, patronising little Christian bitch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

But, for you to be reduced to potty-mouthed name-calling of one of the most measured, giving, and gracious posters on the Ship demonstrates so much more about the spiritual wasteland you inhabit than it ever could say about Lamp Chopped.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Nah, I didn't overplay. LC acted towards me like typically smug, condescending, patronising little Christian bitch.

Of course, I forgive her, bless her little cotton socks.

ETA: Just in case anyone doesn't get it, the above line is written in a deliberately snide, twisting, hypocritical "Christian" voice, just so you can see what I'm up against.

Sheesh!

---

Put down that crack-pipe for a moment. You think this gentle soul of a woman, who speaks authentically from the heart, is a "bitch"? Wow, you really are a whitewashed tomb, aren't you? I'm honestly praying for your soul tonight, for you to repent. You insults show a bitterness that has taken root in you. And no, I am not kidding about anything I have said in this post...except for perhaps the crack-pipe thing. Honestly, a junkie has less concern getting into the Kingdom of heaven then a pharisee. Remember how gentle Jesus was with the woman at the well...the adulteress...and Mary with her weeping tears on His feet, wiped away from her hair?

Jesus saved up all His anger for those he called white-washed tombs. THAT is the time I have seen Him angry reading his Holy Word.

And btw, you suck.
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Duchess, you're back! Good post.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
You folks are making me , and if you don't watch out I'll use the in Hell and bring down the wrath of the Hellhosts on us all.
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Duchess, you're back! Good post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
That statement makes no sense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Christianity really is insane, and those who REALLY, ACTUALLY, believe that stuff must either have a screw loose, or be intellectually lazy, or timid, or just generally fail to understand that it's NOT REAL, FOLKS! Now, you might disagree with this, but that's only because you are locked in a delusional fantasy.

---

This from the man who earnestly believes with every fibre of his being that a new constitution would solve every problem the country has and turn it into a perfect and unparalelled paradise.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
What about those who believe in the power of myth, parable and fable to convey a powerful message with a kernel of truth (the pearl of great price)? Do we only have half a screw loose?
 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
What about those who believe in the power of myth, parable and fable to convey a powerful message with a kernel of truth (the pearl of great price)? Do we only have half a screw loose?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Perhaps just a longer, slower screw?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

---

RadicalWhig jumps the shark:
LC acted towards me like typically smug, condescending, patronising little Christian bitch.

---

"Lamp Chopped is a smug, condescending, patronizing little Christian." Fine. Everyone is entitled to be wrong.

But, "little Christian bitch"?

But, for you to be reduced to potty-mouthed name-calling of one of the most measured, giving, and gracious posters on the Ship demonstrates so much more about the spiritual wasteland you inhabit than it ever could say about Lamp Chopped.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
You have to allow others the dignity of being wrong. Otherwise no discourse is possible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
That statement makes no sense.

---

True. Duchess said she only bible thumps once in a while.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
You have to allow others the dignity of being wrong. Otherwise no discourse is possible.

---

Quotes file.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Duchess, you're back! Good post.

---

never left completely. I always have to have one steel-plated bible thump every once in awhile.

---

Good to see you back, D, and posting in style!
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Duchess, you're back! Good post.

---

never left completely. I always have to have one steel-plated bible thump every once in awhile.

---

Good to see you back, D, and posting in style!
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
IMHO, RW is suffering from a huge amount of pain and anger, due to deciding/finding out that Christianity is a load of crap. So he's being ferocious in his attacks.

Not excusing the hurt he's causing.

FWIW.
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
IMHO, RW is suffering from a huge amount of pain and anger, due to deciding/finding out that Christianity is a load of crap. So he's being ferocious in his attacks.

Not excusing the hurt he's causing.

FWIW.

---

More specifically, he now believes that the particular church/denomination he belonged to taught nonsense. I got the impression that this church was somewhat coercive.

The fact that he lumped together the resurrection of Jesus and talking snakes indicated that it was not mainstream.

Moo
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
No hurt to me. Others, I dunno.
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
The hurt he's causing seems to be mainly to himself.

I'm deeply sympathetic to people who have gotten out of coercive organizations (been there, done that, got the "I survived" T-shirt) but he needs to find a more constructive way to process. Besides the "the Ship is the wrong target", there's the "sexism: not helping" thing.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Moo--

Re mainstream, resurrection, and talking serpent: depends on whether you consider fund/evo churches to be *entirely* outside the mainstream. I grew up in one. Belief in the talking serpent in Eden may not currently be mainstream, but it probably was at one time. The resurrection is still pretty mainstream, AFAIK, except among churches that ONLY allow for a symbolic interpretation.

For me, the supernatural biblical stuff has always been pretty easy to accept. ("God is an ogre" stuff, not so much.) I figure if God exists, caused our existence in some way, loves us, and became incarnate, anything might happen. (And I mean those ifs--I don't know what's true.)


AG--

I haven't been in a coercive church, but I've been in other coercive groups. Glad you got out of yours!

I didn't get the impression, at least in recent memory, that RW's church is coercive. ISTM, from posts over the last 6-8 months, that he's given up Christianity as a whole, not just his church's interpretation. Seems like he still has some interest in God, if I correctly understood one or two Purg posts.

I just find myself empathizing when someone is in pain from their religious struggles; I've been there.


 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
I didn't get the impression, at least in recent memory, that RW's church is coercive. ISTM, from posts over the last 6-8 months, that he's given up Christianity as a whole, not just his church's interpretation. Seems like he still has some interest in God, if I correctly understood one or two Purg posts.

---

Man, if this is mostly a case of "convertitis", I've lost a good deal of the sympathy I had.

quote:

---

I just find myself empathizing when someone is in pain from their religious struggles; I've been there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
IMHO, RW is suffering from a huge amount of pain and anger, due to deciding/finding out that Christianity is a load of crap.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:


Now I realise that I was wrong. Almost all Christians are batshit crazy, because they really do believe this stuff; they think that the little bronze age tribal deity of the bible really is the One True God. And if you don't believe it too, you are out of here!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".

---

Take a good long look in the mirror RW.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".

---

Take a good long look in the mirror RW.

---

Exactly!!!!!

Well done.

That is the absolutely typical response; throw it right back. Perhaps you are the one who needs to look in the mirror for a change, huh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".

---

Take a good long look in the mirror RW.

---

Exactly!!!!!

Well done.

That is the absolutely typical response; throw it right back. Perhaps you are the one who needs to look in the mirror for a change, huh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
You take passive-aggression to a whole quantum dimension.

[I know I probably should leave this alone, because you're going to project your projection onto me, causing something somewhere to implode in a smouldering heap of contradictions]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
Heisenburg's uncertainty principle? He can't actually be passive or aggressive till you measure him - then your perception defines the result?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

(3) Jesus of Nazareth, called the "annointed", a man who is dead, pointed the way to a natural religion of pure spirituality and humane ethics - and his way of doing that was through a non-violent social and political revolution, unlike any seen before, against the religious and secular powers of corruption, tyranny and injustice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
Heisenburg's uncertainty principle? He can't actually be passive or aggressive till you measure him - then your perception defines the result?

---

You obviously don't understand the uncertainty principle. Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result. What that result is is (dead cat or live cat) is not dependent upon her perception.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rugasaw:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
Heisenburg's uncertainty principle? He can't actually be passive or aggressive till you measure him - then your perception defines the result?

---

You obviously don't understand the uncertainty principle. Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result. What that result is is (dead cat or live cat) is not dependent upon her perception.

---

But what happens if there is no cat?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
... Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result.

---

Are you saying measuring instruments are not defined by our perception, therefore the results are not?

[ 24. June 2011, 00:19: Message edited by: Alfred E. Neuman ]
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
RW--


Ok. Given that you are evidently angry and not fragile, and you probably know that I'm not against you, then let's cross swords a bit, yes? Partly for fun, and partly to think out loud.


You seem to be at a point that dear old Ambrose Bierce described in a poem, thusly:

quote:

---

CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din -
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.
Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below,
With tranquil face, upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
"God keep you, strange," I exclaimed. "You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people, are a Christian too."
He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied -- his manner with disdain was spiced:
"What! I a Christian? No, indeed! I'm Christ."

G.J.

---

I've always liked that, even back when I was a fundamentalist.

So...you've decided/discovered that God exists; Jesus was a good spiritual teacher and a good man, but not God; his ethical teachings are worth following; everything else is crap that was piled on; and you are fervently in favor of Jesus' ethical teachings and your "ethical pan/deism".

You've found The Truth (tm).

Now, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to live it?

I take this moment to gently point out that you're being every bit as fierce and...prickly...about this set of beliefs as you were about your previous understanding of Christianity. Which is to be expected. Whatever belief system a person chooses, they bring their self along.


IME, that's where you find out who you are and the truth of your beliefs--*whatever* they are: getting to know yourself, growing, living your life in a good way (by whatever definition), treating others in a good way. It's hella hard work, whether you're a Christian, an Ethical Pan/Deist, a Zoroastrian, an Atheist, or a follower of the small, blue, stuffed dog from your childhood that sits (hidden) on the top shelf of your closet.

I'm no expert--just one fallible, searching person talking to another, from experience. Two things I, personally, have found helpful: Salinger's novel "Franny & Zooey" (stick with it--the second half is most pertinent, but you need the first half for perspective); and Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages".

Oh, and Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulum", which is a vampire romp about finding out what you *really* believe. (Crass commercial: it will be the subject of the Ship's book group in July, on the Heaven board.)


So...when the anger cools down (and, realistically, you can't maintain that forever), how then shall you live?

Best of luck to you!
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
... Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result.

---

Are you saying measuring instruments are not defined by our perception, therefore the results are not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Given that you are evidently angry and not fragile, and you probably know that I'm not against you, then let's cross swords a bit, yes? Partly for fun, and partly to think out loud.

---

quote:

---

You seem to be at a point that dear old Ambrose Bierce described in a poem, thusly:

CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

---

quote:

---

So...you've decided/discovered that God exists;

---

quote:

---

Jesus was a good spiritual teacher and a good man, but not God; his ethical teachings are worth following; everything else is crap that was piled on; and you are fervently in favor of Jesus' ethical teachings and your "ethical pan/deism".

---

quote:

---

You've found The Truth (tm).

---

quote:

---

Now, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to live it?

---

quote:

---

I take this moment to gently point out that you're being every bit as fierce and...prickly...about this set of beliefs as you were about your previous understanding of Christianity. Which is to be expected. Whatever belief system a person chooses, they bring their self along.

---

quote:

---

IME, that's where you find out who you are and the truth of your beliefs--*whatever* they are: getting to know yourself, growing, living your life in a good way (by whatever definition), treating others in a good way.

---

quote:

---

It's hella hard work, whether you're a Christian, an Ethical Pan/Deist, a Zoroastrian, an Atheist, or a follower of the small, blue, stuffed dog from your childhood that sits (hidden) on the top shelf of your closet.

---

quote:

---

I'm no expert--just one fallible, searching person talking to another, from experience. Two things I, personally, have found helpful: Salinger's novel "Franny & Zooey" (stick with it--the second half is most pertinent, but you need the first half for perspective); and Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages".

---

quote:

---

Oh, and Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulum", which is a vampire romp about finding out what you *really* believe. (Crass commercial: it will be the subject of the Ship's book group in July, on the Heaven board.

---

quote:

---

So...when the anger cools down (and, realistically, you can't maintain that forever), how then shall you live?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

You've found The Truth (tm).

---

No. At best, I've found an approach that works for me, and which is not obviously untrue, because it does not make absurd and unsubstantiated claims.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Hear, hear! Christianity certainly does make absurd and unsubstantiated claims, which at best require 'willing suspension of disbelief'. Anyone who self-identifies as 'Christian' certainly doesn't have any sort of logical or even intellectual high ground and would do well to cultivate…wait for it…Christian humility and go for an attitude of "Yes, I know it sounds crazy but, if you'll pardon me, it's something I've chosen to believe. YMMV."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Ambrose Bierce:

I was trying (and seem to have failed) to point at the "even Jesus wouldn't be a Christian" part of the poem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Incidentally, did I mention that I once spent an enjoyable weekend writing a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Why is this assumption made that if you disagree with a religion it is because you want to "sin'?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
It is ok for them to say that, but the equivalent opposite (e.g. trinitarian creedalists only believe in magic and fairytales because it either suits them or they are too stupid to think otherwise) is "aggressive", "provocative", and demands time on the naughty step.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm actually a pretty self-depreciating sort of chap, but I don't think that comes across well on the Ship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Anger is cooling, except when stoked by Christian exclusiveness, smugness superiority and double-standards.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Incidentally, did I mention that I once spent an enjoyable weekend writing a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?

---

Gsp. You wrote a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?? Does that not come dangerously close to believing in a fairytale?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
My ethics have strengthend, and become more demanding, since I quit christianity: indeed, the inability of christianity to contain a sufficiently compelling ethic was one of the reasons that my theology moved beyond it. A silly taboo on sex is not good ethics; putting people and planet before profit and power is. Your remark is typical of the sort of gnat-straining camel-swallower who fill temples with their false travesty of the gospel.

After all, I did not abandon Christianity for hedonistic atheism, but for a virtuous deism which aims to follow Jesus as one of the great sages and teachers of humanity. Just as God is bigger than your human-invented god, ethics are bigger than your bronze age taboos, and the Good News is bigger than christianity.

If I wanted easy morality I would be an evangelical, because at root it is alien to all ethics and morals: there is no virtue or goodness in anything except accepting the formulaic set of doctrines which magically effect salvation. But I do not choose that which is easy, but that which is good - you could describe it as "taking up one's cross". And yet you have the audacity, the presumption, the hubris, the arrogance, to say this reflects nothing but a weakness of my will?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Ambrose Bierce:

I was trying (and seem to have failed) to point at the "even Jesus wouldn't be a Christian" part of the poem.

---

I thought that might have been the case, but wasn't sure; the definition bit threw me.

---

Sorry! I should've been more clear. The entire quote is from the satirical "Devil's Dictionary", by Ambrose Bierce.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Tangent re Ankh-Morporkian constitution:

Surely, it must be

1) All power, control, and machinations reside with Lord Vetinari;

2) If you doubt #1, please leave town immediately--for your own safety.


 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Or, to put it another way, I accept almost all of Christianity(*), except for its realist truth-claims.

It pains me that that matters, but unfortunately it does: if you cannot affirm the realist truth-claims, the you are not a Christian, even if you are really a Christian in the best, purest, most natural sense of the word.

(* Depends how you define it, of course)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Now, this post screams self deprecation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I can't win.

Say you are no longer a Christian, they say it is because you just want to be a sinner. Explain that that is not the case, and they say you are boasting.

Really can't bloody win.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Do you mean 'realist' as the same thing as 'literalist'? I personally don't believe in some of the literal assertions of scripture, partly because I understand some of them were not intended to be perceived that way, and partly for other reasons. But the reality behind such assertions is very 'real' indeed.

---

quote:

---

As many Christians would identify themselves with the saving grace of Christ rather than the goodness of their own works, the phrase 'a Christian in the best, purest and most natural sense of the word' probably seems a bit redundant. Though there are certainly 'good' and 'bad' Christians in terms of personal behaviour.

---

quote:

---

For me, the touchstone of any claim to faith or life-philosophy is: does it make someone a better human being? If I can regard a person's, or my own, life as - at least - attempting to be less ego-centric, more expressive of productive virtues, then imo God's Spirit is at work. If, otoh, a believer (in whatever they believe in) regresses in this process, the Spirit is being stifled.

---

quote:

---

I'm a little puzzled by your personal experience of morality and ethics. I find the opposite, that being a Christian very much constrains my freedom to suit myself and seek my own satisfaction over the good of others. But given the statement in the para above, that would be entirely consistent with my view of exercising my own belief in Christ.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I'd say stop trying to win.

<...> your need to convert others bothers me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl2:
It ain't about winning or losing RW. It's about respecting one another's beliefs and learning from each other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:


Let's just try to plainly and frankly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Why should I respect your religion, which I think is false?

Why should you respect my religion, which you think is false?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Problem is, every time I try to level out the playing field a little, Christians cry foul. They are so used to having it their own way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Why should I respect your religion, which I think is false?

Why should you respect my religion, which you think is false?

---

Because we're smart enough to realise that our thinking capacity is limited. And nice enough to acknowledge that the person with a different view might have had thoughts of their own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
No. Problem is, you try to level out the playing field with a bulldozer. Try a different toolset.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Why should I respect your religion, which I think is false?

Why should you respect my religion, which you think is false?

That's not honest.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by RadicalWhig:
As far as converting people is concerned, I do want to convert people, but no more so than most Christians and other religionists want to convert people too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

For me, ceasing to be a Trinitarian Creedalist and becoming a Jesusian was an important step in that process.

---

quote:

---

Ok. Right. Deep breath.

By "win" I do not mean "convince you that my positions are correct".

I mean, "get into a position where we can escape from Christian (Trinitarian Creedalist) arrogance and can, at least, have a frank discussion on broadly equal terms". Problem is, every time I try to level out the playing field a little, Christians cry foul. They are so used to having it their own way.

That doesn't mean we have to "respect" each other's beliefs - only that all the respect should not be titled to the Christian side. I'm content with "equal scepticism" - apply the same level of criticism all beliefs, without any special pleading or scared cows.

---

quote:

---

Christianity really is insane, and those who REALLY, ACTUALLY, believe that stuff must either have a screw loose, or be intellectually lazy, or timid, or just generally fail to understand that it's NOT REAL, FOLKS! Now, you might disagree with this, but that's only because you are locked in a delusional fantasy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Ok. Right. Deep breath.

By "win" I do not mean "convince you that my positions are correct".

I mean, "get into a position where we can escape from Christian (Trinitarian Creedalist) arrogance and can, at least, have a frank discussion on broadly equal terms". Problem is, every time I try to level out the playing field a little, Christians cry foul. They are so used to having it their own way.

That doesn't mean we have to "respect" each other's beliefs - only that all the respect should not be titled to the Christian side. I'm content with "equal scepticism" - apply the same level of criticism all beliefs, without any special pleading or scared cows.

---

I can totally respect the explanation of your ideas in your post of 06-25-2011 07:07 AM (PDT). I may not agree with all of them, but I can respect both you and the integrity of your thoughts. I don't respect this pronouncement:

quote:

---

Christianity really is insane, and those who REALLY, ACTUALLY, believe that stuff must either have a screw loose, or be intellectually lazy, or timid, or just generally fail to understand that it's NOT REAL, FOLKS! Now, you might disagree with this, but that's only because you are locked in a delusional fantasy.

---

See the difference? Is that what you call "leveling the playing field"- wielding a verbal machete?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
But, why would you want to continue discussing religion? What good will come of it?

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

originally posted by RadicalWhig:
As far as converting people is concerned, I do want to convert people, but no more so than most Christians and other religionists want to convert people too.

---

Wouldn't you want to take an approach that didn't annoy even the religionists likely to agree with you?

I understand you'll say that Christians do the same thing. Which is true. But, are those the Christians who are the most successful at winning converts? I've never met a person converted by a street preacher.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

quote:

---

Christianity really is insane, and those who REALLY, ACTUALLY, believe that stuff must either have a screw loose, or be intellectually lazy, or timid, or just generally fail to understand that it's NOT REAL, FOLKS! Now, you might disagree with this, but that's only because you are locked in a delusional fantasy.

---

See the difference? Is that what you call "leveling the playing field"- wielding a verbal machete?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
But would you respect the beliefs of someone who came up to you and said, "I'm the reincarnation of Napoleon and Julius Caesar, and I'm visiting earth from the planet Invisiblius - an invisible planet between earth and mars. If you don't want to be chewed up by the great sky dragon of Ikta, give me all your money!"?

What about if they said, "I believe that Odin and Thor are alive"?

Or what if they said, "I'm a muslim"?

Would you, on the basis of the fact they you are being nice and don't know everything, accord an equal respect to each of those three positions?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I don't know how to talk to religionists in a way that is (a) honest, frank and direct AND (b) doesn't just annoy them. Supernatural believers seem to be allergic to honestly, frankness and directness when it comes to challenging their beleifs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...I don't know how to talk to religionists in a way that is (a) honest, frank and direct... when it comes to challenging their beleifs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
But would you respect the beliefs of someone who came up to you and said, "I'm the reincarnation of Napoleon and Julius Caesar, and I'm visiting earth from the planet Invisiblius - an invisible planet between earth and mars. If you don't want to be chewed up by the great sky dragon of Ikta, give me all your money!"?

---

quote:

---

What about if they said, "I believe that Odin and Thor are alive"?

---

quote:

---

Or what if they said, "I'm a muslim"?

---

quote:

---

Would you, on the basis of the fact they you are being nice and don't know everything, accord an equal respect to each of those three positions?

---

quote:

---

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question, which to me is pretty central to this discussion of "respect".

I guess it comes down to this: I see the truth-claims of trinitarian creedalism, and most other forms of revealed theism, to be about on the same level of credibility as the truth-claims of homeopathy, tarot, quija boards, spiritualism, ghosts, fairies, and flying spaghetti monsters.

I wouldn't have "respect" for those beliefs, which seem to me to be false, superstitious, improbable, ignorant, and without foundation. Why then, should I have respect for the truth-claims of Christianity?

(This isn't about having respect for people; it is possible to respect someone as a person even if you think they are batshit crazy in one area of their life.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
So what you are saying, la vie en rouge, is that supernaturalists don't like it when people call out their unsubstantiated bullshit, and they call those who do so "tactless" or "rude".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

I'm a little puzzled by your personal experience of morality and ethics. I find the opposite, that being a Christian very much constrains my freedom to suit myself and seek my own satisfaction over the good of others. But given the statement in the para above, that would be entirely consistent with my view of exercising my own belief in Christ.

---

What can I say? "Your mileage may vary"?

What I don't understand, is why would you want to use your freedom to "suit yourself" - surely, the purpose of freedom is to "love and serve one another", and what we actually seek is to develop the virtue to do that more consistently and effectively. Seeking to constrain freedom, in that sense, is to look in the wrong direction; we should be seeking to promote excellence - that's a message I can find both in Jesus & Aristotle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Radical Whig
Perhaps I should, to avoid confusion, be clearer in my terminology. "Christian" is an overused and confusing word, and reliance upon it might be one of the reasons that I struggle to make myself understood. When I say 'a Christian in the best, purest and most natural sense of the word', I really mean "one who lives virtuously, in accordance with humane and graceful ethics", not "one who is 'saved' by belief in the atoning effect of the death and resurrection of Jesus".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
But if I get accused of "wielding a verbal machete" just for speaking the truth as I see it, then there is no level playing field at all.

Do you see?

---

It's not for speaking the truth as you see it--it's for the way in which you do it.

You may not be able to see it, RW, but you've got a whole bunch of people on this thread who are listening to you and trying to support you in your search.

But it's hard when you're acting like a berserker, swinging a spiked battle mace.


[ 25. June 2011, 23:13: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...I don't know how to talk to religionists in a way that is (a) honest, frank and direct... when it comes to challenging their beleifs.

---

WHY are you "challenging" them? Are you on some sort of mission to relieve the suffering misguided masses? Pull those big-girl panties out of the crack of your arse, STFU and move on. Sheesh.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
By your definition, many devout Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus are Christian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

quote:

---

Christianity really is insane, and those who REALLY, ACTUALLY, believe that stuff must either have a screw loose, or be intellectually lazy, or timid, or just generally fail to understand that it's NOT REAL, FOLKS! Now, you might disagree with this, but that's only because you are locked in a delusional fantasy.

---

See the difference? Is that what you call "leveling the playing field"- wielding a verbal machete?

---

I don't see that is wrong with that statement. I think it is true - and quite measured. You might disagree, and say that it is not true. Fine. What's the problem with that? We can discuss these disagreements. But if I get accused of "wielding a verbal machete" just for speaking the truth as I see it, then there is no level playing field at all.

Do you see?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
But would you respect the beliefs of someone who came up to you and said, "I'm the reincarnation of Napoleon and Julius Caesar, and I'm visiting earth from the planet Invisiblius - an invisible planet between earth and mars. If you don't want to be chewed up by the great sky dragon of Ikta, give me all your money!"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Incidentally, did I mention that I once spent an enjoyable weekend writing a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?

---

Gsp. You wrote a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?? Does that not come dangerously close to believing in a fairytale?

---

Excellent point!

I'd just read Going Postal (I think); there is a part need the end where Vetriani presides over a meeting of the guilds, and this chimed well with the ideas of neo-medieval civic republicanism.

If there is a unifying direction to my research it is probably something like "How can institutions and processes of ancient and medieval republicanism be applied to improve the quality of democracy today?" So I got very excited.

I wrote a constitution for ankh-morpork because it gave me a ready-made playing field for working out ideas. I wasn't writing in the abstract, but in a well-developed scenario. I could experiment with neo-medieval republicanism, not on a blank piece of paper, but in a "living" city, filled with characters.

The story gave me images, narratives, aesthetics, structures, around which to build an imaginary project of my own - the ultimate (although very distant) purpose of which is to make life better for real people in the real world (i.e. earth, not discworld).

---

Well, I was initially more worried about you actually enjoying writing a constitution, but now that you phrase the Anhk-Morpork exercise in such terms, it does actually sound very interesting!

quote:

---

Folks mustn't think, when I use words like magic and fairytales, that I am being unduely harsh. I'm not. Magic and fairytales can be good things in lots of ways - but only so long as we know that they are not really real. We can inhabit imaginary universes if we choose, and use them to provide narratives and imagery to help us; the Greeks had their myths, and they were good and useful, just as the Christian myths can be good and useful, or as Discworld novels can be good and useful. But they are only imaginary, or at best legendary - they are not real.

---

quote:

---

Incidentally, if you go to Constitutional Commission's Resources Page, and scroll down to the bottom document on the page, you can see one of the eventual spin-offs from the Ankh-Morpork idea; a hypothetical example of a civic constitution for an imaginery city called Pugin-Ruskin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
The definition of "Christian" that you use in not the one that 99% of the population uses. Do you really think you can get everyone to accept your meaning?

---

quote:

---

[QB]Why do you care?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
Just fucking grow up RW. You're not the first to find themselves suddenly sure of themselves and you won't be the last. But you are surely the most boring.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
Just fucking grow up RW. You're not the first to find themselves suddenly sure of themselves and you won't be the last. But you are surely the most boring.

---

Why? Why does it get this reaction?

---

quote:

---

Am I any more sure of myself than you are?

---

You certainly bang on about it in a more boring fashion than anyone else in Christendom.

 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 
You see, it's a waste of time arguing with that sort of thing; I try to be measured and reasonable, and am accused of being wordy and boring; I try to be vivid and direct, and am accussed of being rude and aggressive; I try defend my position, and I am accused of being insuffiently humble; I try to explain my beliefs, and why I think supernaturalism is unsustainable, and I am accused of not having the guts to believe things that are absurd, as if that were some sort of test of character.

Seriously, you folks probably don't realise this, but you are turning "my father's house" into a nest of vipers; I'm trying to save Christianity - admittedly a very different sort of Christianity to that advocated by trinitarian creedalists - and I am accused of wanting to destroy it.

Point out the unfairness and double-standard of all this, and I am accused of being a winging moaner.
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 
Although this quote, from another thread, explains why I do bother:

quote:

---

Originally posted by churchgeek:
That's why we as a society have to become less individualistic and work on real community building across the boundaries of race and class. I don't expect that to happen till Kingdom come (literally), but it's what's needed.

I am convinced, however, that we behave according to what we love, so if we can figure out ways to help kids love things that lead to life and community rather than money, violence, power, and personal prestige, then our society will be better off. The question is, how do we do that? How can we help kids in the upper as well as lower classes learn to love others as they love themselves, to love beauty and truth and goodness so much they'd rather give up a little so others can have all they need?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...I try to explain my beliefs, and why I think supernaturalism is unsustainable

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...I try to explain my beliefs, and why I think supernaturalism is unsustainable

---

You realize, of course, that physics disagrees with you regarding supernaturalism - or are you the sort that's convinced your five senses are the 'be all, end all' for defining what is natural - or "super"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ok...well...good luck with saving Western civilization and all that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why do you hate us so?

---

quote:

---

Seriously? You don't see what is wrong with putting "NOT REAL, FOLKS!" and other phrases in capital letters? While describing people as crazy and delusional? You think that's no different to the other quote provided? You think that it's MEASURED?

---

quote:

---

You see, it's a waste of time arguing with that sort of thing; I try to be measured and reasonable, and am accused of being wordy and boring; I try to be vivid and direct, and am accussed of being rude and aggressive; I try defend my position, and I am accused of being insuffiently humble; I try to explain my beliefs, and why I think supernaturalism is unsustainable, and I am accused of not having the guts to believe things that are absurd, as if that were some sort of test of character.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
You see, it's a waste of time arguing with that sort of thing; I try to be measured and reasonable, and am accused of being wordy and boring; I try to be vivid and direct, and am accussed of being rude and aggressive; I try defend my position, and I am accused of being insuffiently humble; I try to explain my beliefs, and why I think supernaturalism is unsustainable, and I am accused of not having the guts to believe things that are absurd, as if that were some sort of test of character.

Seriously, you folks probably don't realise this, but you are turning "my father's house" into a nest of vipers; I'm trying to save Christianity - admittedly a very different sort of Christianity to that advocated by trinitarian creedalists - and I am accused of wanting to destroy it.

Point out the unfairness and double-standard of all this, and I am accused of being a winging moaner.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
You see, it's a waste of time arguing with that sort of thing; I try to be measured and reasonable, and am accused of being wordy and boring; I try to be vivid and direct, and am accussed of being rude and aggressive; I try defend my position, and I am accused of being insuffiently humble; I try to explain my beliefs, and why I think supernaturalism is unsustainable, and I am accused of not having the guts to believe things that are absurd, as if that were some sort of test of character.

Seriously, you folks probably don't realise this, but you are turning "my father's house" into a nest of vipers; I'm trying to save Christianity - admittedly a very different sort of Christianity to that advocated by trinitarian creedalists - and I am accused of wanting to destroy it.

Point out the unfairness and double-standard of all this, and I am accused of being a winging moaner.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
Don't try to 'save Christianity', it's not your job, it doesn't need saving and it doesn't need you.

---

quote:

---

Get on with your life, live it anyway you want and stop getting so het up with your nonsense.

---

quote:

---

A wiser man than you said that when you leave a church you should stfu about it for five years to give you time to settle in your new position. It's advice worth taking.

---

quote:

---

I look forward to the moment when you grow up and realise that you're just fighting against nothing.

---

quote:

---

Jesus is looking down on you and smiling indulgently at your arrogance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
No, you don't sound like a whinging moaner. Respectfully, you sound like you see yourself as a martyr or messiah--even like you're the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

---

quote:

---

RW, reread your posts, and imagine that they're from someone else who believes something else--maybe the follower of Norse gods you mentioned. How would the attitude strike you??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't hate you in the least. It's a pity you hate us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Have you read Richard Holloway's stuff? Now he is an example of someone who is seeking reform to the supernatural Christian faith through a rationalist approach. I quite enjoy the challenge of his work, and similar authors.

---

quote:

---

The difference here, though, is he doesn't come across like an atheist David Icke, which it really seems as if you do! I think, when you stop seeing Christians as Lizard-tongued aliens, but fellow travellers on the same planet, your capacity to communicate as effectively as, say, Holloway and the very many other theologians who follow a non-supernaturalist approach to faith, may begin to improve a little!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:


I think my mistake was that I thought his position was pretty mainstream, the sort of thing that nearly all educated Christians in the UK believed - with the exception of a few crazy evangelicals etc. That, of course, turned out to be a mistake - his position is a minority one, and most people still believe the supernatural way is the only way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Orfeo, my point is, why should that language be offensive or unacceptable to you. Ok, it is a bit strident, but why do you find it offensive?

---

Where did I say I found it offensive? I just find it totally discouraging of meaningful discussion.
 

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Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :
 
RW, you're several months out from your "conversion experience" and are behaving as obnoxiously as a newbie Christian can and often does. They also think it's their personal responsibility to save the world. Most people ignore them because they come off, not as genuinely caring, but as arrogant and disrespectful and sometimes hateful. The newbie Christian then interprets this as hateful world persecution rather than looking at themselves for any responsibility for how they're perceived. Perhaps with a little time and more experience you'll learn to actually engage with people in discussion that might actually be helpful to the world, but for right now you're coming off as an over exuberant newbie who also cries unjust persecution rather than looking to see if there's any reason for the reaction you're getting.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
A distinct Dejavu in this conversation (seven times seven).


 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

I look forward to the moment when you grow up and realise that you're just fighting against nothing.

---

On the other hand, I'm looking forward to the moment when you realise that there is so much to fight against: tyranny, torture, exploitation, environmental degradation, and a hegemonic assumption of consumerist individualism - and that these require a theological response, because all socio-economic problems are political, and all politics is cultural, and all culture is at root religious - Christianity, as the root of our culture, is too important to be left to those who think it's real.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Radical Whig
Actually, I think it sort of is my job; some of us care about the state of the world and the future of humanity, and are trying to do something about it. There is a profound spiritual crisis in our civilisation, and unless we, as a culture, can address this, we are all screwed.

---

quote:

---

Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, brought new spiritual and social teachings for our time. His essential message is of unity. He taught the oneness of God, the oneness of the human family, and the oneness of religion.

Bahá'u'lláh said, “The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens,” and that, as foretold in all the sacred scriptures of the past, now is the time for humanity to live in unity.

Founded more than a century and a half ago, the Bahá'í Faith has spread around the globe. Members of the Bahá'í Faith live in more than 100,000 localities and come from nearly every nation, ethnic group, culture, profession, and social or economic background.

Bahá'ís believe the crucial need facing humanity is to find a unifying vision of the nature and purpose of life and of the future of society. Such a vision unfolds in the writings of Bahá'u'lláh

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
On the other hand, I'm looking forward to the moment when you realise that there is so much to fight against: tyranny, torture, exploitation, environmental degradation, and a hegemonic assumption of consumerist individualism - and that these require a theological response, because all socio-economic problems are political, and all politics is cultural, and all culture is at root religious - Christianity, as the root of our culture, is too important to be left to those who think it's real.

---

What about Christian Aid, Traidcraft, Arochas? all Christian organisations. Do you think they are doing nothing? Do you think churches are not supporting their work.

You're arguing against a very narrow view of Christianity and assuming that everyone fits the box you're stuffing us all in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Really, I'm trying for a Second Reformation, more radical than the first.

---

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't hate you in the least. It's a pity you hate us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't really hate you; I just get frustrated. I think you are right in that you don't really hate me either; it feels more like your technique is just to smile sweetly in unspoken contempt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, it's a bit odd I should come across as an atheist, when I've said time and time again that I'm not an atheist.

---

Yes, I know. I knew that, too, when I typed the quote you refer to, and I can't even now recall the word I meant to put in. 'Atheist' wasn't the word I wanted, but there it is nevertheless. Senior moment, I suppose.

Likening you to David Icke is probably not fair anyway. Nobody else can have the kind of dress sense he has...
 

---

Posted by RadicalWhig (# 13190) on :
 
Just a few quick points:

Firstly, I don't really think this is newbie syndrome, because I've not had a recent "conversion" or "deconversion" experience. My basic core beliefs on all the major theological points at which I diverfge from trinitarian creedalist Christianity have remained remarkably consistent for many years. All that has really changed is the label and the affiliation, and that's more because they were denied to me than because I repudiated them.

Secondly, I'm not trying to lead a reformation; I'm just an ordinary layman who is following and supporting it. More a Jenny Geddes than a Calvin. There are people like Spong, Holloway and Vernon who are leading it - wittingly or otherwise.

I would, however, be really keen to try joining a church with liturgies, hymns and sermons which concentrate on our practical and ethical response to humanity and nature, informed principally by the man Jesus of Nazareth, while being open and inclusive of those with non-trinitarian, non-creedalist, and/or non-theistic beliefs.

Thirdly, ok, LambChopped, fair enough; I am willing to accept that you were not being the smarmy little git I accused you of being, and that your good intentions were merely betrayed by the inadequacies of a text medium. My apologies.

Fourthly, I don't deny the good work done by some Christian organisations - I'm not sure where folks picked up that idea. I'm just saying that the church, as the leaven in the social lump, needs all the help it can get - including that of non-trinitarians, non-creedalists, and non-theists; if it excludes them, it is betraying its own cause.
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Without a supernatural element - what is the point of a religion ? As opposed to some form of moral philosophy. What is the point of worship in this world view ?
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Accepted.
 

---

Posted by Alfred E. Neuman (# 6855) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...I would, however, be really keen to try joining a church with liturgies, hymns and sermons which concentrate on our practical and ethical response to humanity and nature, informed principally by the man Jesus of Nazareth, while being open and inclusive of those with non-trinitarian, non-creedalist, and/or non-theistic beliefs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
Here you go! Enjoy the fellowship.

---

They believe in penal substitutionary atonement Neuman. They're not a church. They're a cosmic child abuse cult.
 

---

Posted by Alfred E. Neuman (# 6855) on :
 
Don't confuse the issue with that theological crap. They have a cool building and thousands of members with deep pockets. What's not to like?
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm just saying that the church, as the leaven in the social lump, needs all the help it can get - including that of non-trinitarians, non-creedalists, and non-theists; if it excludes them, it is betraying its own cause.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
all socio-economic problems are political, and all politics is cultural, and all culture is at root religious - Christianity, as the root of our culture, is too important to be left to those who think it's real.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm not trying to lead a revolution or a reformation

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Really, I'm trying for a Second Reformation, more radical than the first.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Your natural clientele are people with a sentimental attachment to church life, who have drifted away slowly from faith. However, you'll need to mellow a lot to attract them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Part of me wants to say that we've already got the Episcopal Church

---

quote:

---

One shudders to think of the tantrum he threw when he found out Santa-Claus wasn't real.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm trying to sort it out in my own mind - and, in so far as I think I've got something useful to say, to share it with others in the hope that they will also be convinced and motivated in a similar direction (I think that is what Christians call "evangelism", but it is ok when they do it). Why does that offend you? Why does it threaten you? Do you really think I think I'm something special? If so, I'd be more deluded than those who, to go back to an earlier image, believe in the talking snake theory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm not trying to lead a revolution or a reformation

---

Make your bloody mind up:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Really, I'm trying for a Second Reformation, more radical than the first.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
It's a pity for Mr. Whig that Madalyn Murray O'Hair (for one) beat him to it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
It's a pity for Mr. Whig that Madalyn Murray O'Hair (for one) beat him to it. He's sort of a day late and a dollar short with his startling news.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Marvin - hoping for, wanting to see, and being willing to take part in a reformation is one thing; leading it or starting it is quite another.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Why do you insist that I be compared with atheists, when I am not an atheist?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Orfeo: To repeat, there is no inconsistency: hoping for, wanting to see, and being willing to take part in a reformation is one thing; leading it or starting it is quite another.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hang about, you've spent pages of this thread telling us all that our religions are nice stories that are useful in as much as they may inspire people to behave in a more socio-politically beneficial way, but that there's no actual truth in them. That talk of God is in the same general ballpark as talk of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

That, in a nutshell, there is no God - only stories and ideals.

Now, what's the correct word for someone who believes there is no God? Oh yes, it's ATHEIST.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...a great big role-play, in which they pretend to interact with pretend characters called gods. Christianity is just the same. Jahweh, Bible-god, Wafer-god, is just a made up god. But it's still a great story. If pagans can still be pagans while not really believing in their gods, why cannot Christians be Christians without really believing in their gods? <...>

Almost all Christians are batshit crazy, because they really do believe this stuff; they think that the little bronze age tribal deity of the bible really is the One True God. And if you don't believe it too, you are out of here!

---

quote:

---

It's that, ultimately, that pushed me out of Christianity: worshiping God in Spirit and Truth and following the teachings of the man Jesus makes it impossible for me to continue in the Christian religion.

All my real life friends (except the Christian ones) think I am some kind of God-intoxicated Jesus-freek.

---

quote:

---

There is no God but God. Only God is God. Jahweh is not God; The Bible is not God, the Wafer is not God, Jesus is not God, only God is God, and there is no God but God, and God is All-in-All: from this is the foundation of all spirituality, no matter how corrupted it might be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do believe absolutely in Nature's God, the God of Nature, the All-in-All, the Great Architect of the Universe, etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do believe absolutely in Nature's God, the God of Nature, the All-in-All, the Great Architect of the Universe, etc.

---

Actually, the last of those terms is probably less appropriate, because it conjures up anthropmorphic images of a personal deity external to nature, rather than a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do believe absolutely in Nature's God, the God of Nature, the All-in-All, the Great Architect of the Universe, etc.

---

Actually, the last of those terms is probably less appropriate, because it conjures up anthropmorphic images of a personal deity external to nature, rather than a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature.

---

You believe in "a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature"? One which presumably doesn't act on or in the world, and which makes no demands of us and requires no worship (as such things would be inherently personal)? A god that exists in the same way that the planet exists? A god that is all-pervading in the same way that protons are all-pervading?

OK, that's not strictly speaking atheist. But it's about as close as you can come without going the whole hog.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
It's panentheism, really.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
There is no God but God. Only God is God. Jahweh is not God; The Bible is not God, the Wafer is not God, Jesus is not God, only God is God, and there is no God but God, and God is All-in-All: from this is the foundation of all spirituality, no matter how corrupted it might be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rugasaw:
Sounds like unsubstantiated bat shit crazy stuff.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
…but you might think it a bit odd if I were to respond to the ordinary evangelical Anglican pew-warmer who says, "Jesus saves", with, "It's a pity for [whoever] that Pope Pius X (for one) beat him to it. He's sort of a day late and a dollar short with his startling news."

---

quote:

---

Is there any attempt at communication here at all?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rugasaw:
Sounds like unsubstantiated bat shit crazy stuff.

---

Yeah. Maybe it is religion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, it's a sliding scale: here you can calculate your God Delusion Index. Mine is 20 points. So I'm a "normal human being who sees the world as it is".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rugasaw:
Question RW what happens when you die? If it is something other than the complete and total end of your existence on this or any other plane is there anything you can do to better your lot?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
Beating one's head against the wall in conversation with Radical Whig ... Yeas or nays only please. No substitutions allowed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
For the time being: how about some wonderful liturgy?

(Jump down to Section 5: The Form of Celebrating the Socratic Society; Section 6: the Deity and Philosophy of the Society; and Section 7: the Liberty of the Society).

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

(* "Elaborate supernatural schemes" is my attempt to say "magic and fairytales" without upsetting people - is that better?)

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Oddly enough, yes it seems much better. Though possibly the "elaborate" is superfluous.
 

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Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on :
 
It almost seems like you would be better of with something like Kiwanis International. Although I am confused about your desire for a "worship" service. When God has no effect in your life or after why?
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

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Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
Having said that, I think RW does have a point in as far that institutionalised, traditional Christianity has become largely meaningless to contemporary European society. We worry about making Christianity relevant and thus spend a lot of effort contextualising it for all sorts of cultures across the world, however, no useful interpretation is available for young, urban Europeans. This is a great tragedy, as a whole culture is now lost to the deliverance from existential meaningless that Jesus offers. A declining church is forced to worry about maintaining church buildings, making flower arrangements and haggling senselessly over gay issues instead of doing the work of Jesus. In all seriousness, unless we rise to the challenge of totally re-explaining the Gospel in the narrative of our contemporary society, the European church is condemned to the waste heap of history.

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Originally posted by Think²:
Now I think about it RW sems to be trying to reinvent .... the Rotary Club.

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You mean, reinventing the wheel ?
 

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Posted by Molopata The Rebel (# 9933) on :
 

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Originally posted by IngoB:
This idea of "re-explaining the gospel for contemporary society" - that indeed of urban Europeans, though young they increasingly aren't - has been tried extensively for about 50-60 years now by pretty much every church that's out there! Heck, the RCC did call an Ecumenical Council for the express purpose of this pastoral concern, an unprecedented move in Church history. And as far as keeping membership numbers up is concerned, it has been an abject failure.

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In all seriousness, unless we trash this idiotic project of totally re-explaining the Gospel in the narrative of our contemporary society, the European church is condemned to the waste heap of history. The Zeitgeist is not the Holy Spirit, and it will never be. It's time to stop trying to lead by following.

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The Groucho Marx approach to principles is just not attractive, certainly not to young people. It's time to do a Luther on contemporary culture: Here we Christians stand, we can do no other - and if you don't like it, get fucked! Maybe the churches will continue shrinking. So what, they shrink anyway. Maybe they won't. But at least a modicum of (self-)respect will be regained. Nobody likes a sucker, and Christian attempts at being contemporary make a Dyson look feeble.

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