|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Eccles: Building a better Hymn Sandwich
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Well, for once let's talk about something that's not Anglican or Roman Catholic. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
As Chair of Session I recently purchased the United Church of Canada's liturgy book Celebrate God's Presence for my congregation. Our Minister is not the liturgical sort at all though he is a first-rate preacher. As a result I am the Worship Committee.
The Minister changed the Order of Service around last year and moved the sermon to the end of the service. He thought it was all shiny and new. So the new liturgy book arrives, all 700 pages of it in a red three-ringed binder, and I open it up. The first thing is a summary of the United Church of Canada's various Hymn Sandwich patterns from our service books over the years. It turned out his new patters wasn't new at all; it was nearly identical to the First Directory for Public Worship from the Book of Common Order, 1932. Our Minister managed to reinvent the wheel. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
There's some fantastic stuff in it for a Scoto-Catholic like me. In the United Church of Canada the Hymn Book and the Service book are always revised as a set. The hymn book has the lectionary in the back with the lessons appointed for the day and the recommended hymns. The Service Book has Calls to Worship, Confessional Prayers, Assurance of Pardon, Offering Prayers, the works.
The Communion Service has 11 different Eucharistic Prayers. There are also 11 different Epiclesis Prayers. If you would like to know what a Epiclesis looks like in a communion that affirms the Spiritual Presence, it looks like thus:
quote:
Send O God,
your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts,
that all those who share in this bread and cup
may be the body of Christ:
light, life and love in the world.
In this hope, and as your people, we praise you.
I'm taking three Sunday services in July as our Minister is on vacation. In a Scoto-Catholic frenzy I looked up the dates in the lectionary for the readings and hymns (some favourites are in that list, happily) and found suitable Prayers of Approach, Confession, etc.
Dare I say it's been an orgy of Scoto-Catholicism around here?
I've got one sermon down and two to go.
And the first person who mentions Prayer B**k in this thread gets it. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
[ 29. September 2011, 07:33: Message edited by: Spike ]
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
|
Posted
Hi Sober Preacher's Kid,
I always enjoy Ecclesiantics but I often feel I am wandering around in a conversation taking place in a language I am not quite fluent in. Difficult sometimes to get excited about some of this stuff though I think how we worship is very important. Thank you for opening up this thread.I have been drafted on to a liturgical board of the NZ Methodist church to produce a resource for celebrating the Eucharist. Might point them in the direction of the UCC to see how you are approaching the issue.
--------------------
"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
Interesting about your minister re-inventing the wheel! In the Church of Scotland there seem to be two main traditions when it comes to the hymn-sandwich Order of Service, as follows:
1) Sermon at the End. More commonly found in low church and/or evangelical shacks. Definitely seen as the more 'old fashioned' option, but none the worse for that.
2) Sermon in the Middle, with the Offering and Intercessory Prayers afterwards. This is a comparatively recent development, and tends to be found in more liberal and/or liturgically-high churches.
The main advantage of the first format is, as one of my supervisor ministers explained it, that it "sends them out with the Word of God ringing in their ears!" It also means that the Service of the Word (if no Communion) falls very neatly into a 3-part structure, i.e.:
quote:
Part 1:
Call to Worship
Rousing hymn of praise
Prayer of Adoration and Confession
Lord's Prayer
Children's Address
Children's Hymn. (Children exit for Sunday School)
Part 2:
Bible Reading(s)
Reflective hymn
Prayer of Intercession and Thanksgiving
Offering
Prayer of Dedication
Anthem or another hymn
Part 3:
The Sermon
Hymn
Benediction
The main disadvantage of this structure is that it gives the congregation no time to reflect on the sermon, or respond to it within worship. Also, the assumption of this model is that there will be no Communion, and if there is, there needs to be some major and slightly awkward reshuffling - as a consequence, Communion tends to feel a little bit tagged onto the end.
These and similar concerns have led to this other, newer model:
quote:
Part 1: Approach to God:
Call to Worship
Rousing Hymn of Praise
Prayer of Adoration and Confession
Lord's Prayer
Children's Address
Children's Hymn. (Children exit for Sunday School)
Part 2: The Word of God:
Bible Reading(s)
Reflective hymn or Anthem
Sermon
Hymn
Part 3: Our Response to God's Word:
Offering
Prayers of Dedication, Intercession and Thanksgiving
Hymn
Benediction
My own preference is for this second model, as it makes nicely the theological point that all our giving is in response to God's gifts to us. This model also has a natural liturgical space for Communion, and makes frequent celebration more straightforward.
However, a disadvantage is a perceived 'downgrading' of the Sermon from its climactic point at the end of the service. The work and Word of God can seem to be less of a focus, as the spotlight is turned instead on the work and words of the people. Not that there need be a conflict between the two, but that is how it can look.
Anyway, I hope this gives you some food for thought. Is there anything in particular you want to discuss or to share ideas about?
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Sober Preachers Kid
I feel as if I am teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, and really I thought your parents had brought you up better than that. After all I am only a preacher’s kid myself, although because of that I have been involved in preparation of such services for the best part of Forty years. My father would be appalled at me if I suggested such an approach to the liturgy. Choosing texts written by other people and slotting them into an order created by other people does not make good liturgy in the Reformed tradition.
Point 1, slow down! You are rushing in assuming the worship works because it is in the book but that is not how the book is intended to be used. It is almost certainly the work of a committee of opinionated individuals. Probably different people wrote each of those prayers, another group put together the lectionary (or lifted it from the Common Lectionary) and a third lot devised the hymn list. They may have consulted or they may just have put everything in together. There are all sorts of ways to catch out the unwary. The language of one prayer may not fit with the next prayer; all the suggested hymns new to the congregation or just a theological disjoin between the parts. A good liturgy for a hymn sandwich is created by a skilled minister in context for the context. Our worship is contextual in that sense, right back to John Calvin.
The hymn sandwich liturgy has always had form and structure but the structure is a bit like saying a house needs walls, a door and a roof. It has specific prayers often including: adoration, confession thanksgiving and intercession. If these are missing then that is worrying. There is a movement through the service that needs to be kept going. So you move from Welcome/opening to the central part which will always include interaction with the Word and to the blessing and sending out. There are set idiosyncrasies both of tradition and congregation: don’t forget the Lord’s prayer or the offertory, follow the confession with an assurance of pardon and please include the bits of local custom or Mrs Jones will be offended.
The service book is a directory not a blueprint, it gives a generic form so you can adapt to local context but it is not a good service unless it is adapted and it is the whole service that is adapted not just little bits of it.
So how do you do that?
Firstly check with the congregation that there is nothing special going on such as Junior Church not happening on that Sunday. Child friendly hymn sandwiches are a totally different ball game and I am not going to go into them here.
Then back to your lectionary passages. What is the message from those? How does this relate to the congregation? How may the congregation want to respond to this? No this is not writing the sermon its writing the service and doing so is a bit like writing a pantomine script. You know the ingredients that have to be in it but not quite how they fit together. All you have done so far is deciding whether it is Cinderella or Aladdin. As with all amateur dramatics and it is your congregation who have to perform this liturgy, you need to write it for the people you have, not who you wish were there.
So now you have to put the script together. So start with the easy bit. Look at the suggested hymns do they fit with the theme and do they fit the flow of the service. Are they all new to the congregation? If so you need to find some the congregation are familiar with. Do they all have the same tempo and is that tempo appropriate for all places in worship? Maybe you need a quieter one at one place in the worship and a noisier one at another point. People like a good sing when they arrive and when they go out, so it is easier to put the unfamiliar hymns in the middle. Is there maybe another one that fits your sermon theme better, or are you really preaching hard at them and need the hymns to contrast? Could you sing the hymns suggested with integrity and would you expect members of the congregation to. Hymns matter, they are beyond anything where the congregation is most actively engaged with the tradition. Getting them right will provide the structure into which you will slot the rest.
Now back to the readings, how are you going to present these? what version do you want them from, the normal one? Would they be better read by more than one voice? What difference does it make if say the Magnificat is read by a woman rather than a man? Do they want introductions if so who will give them, you or the reader?
Sermon next, there are several hundred texts books on how to do this and I don’t do sermons so you better ask elsewhere if you want advice on that.
Then what many ministers tackle last the prayers. These are the link pieces rather than the hymns as you have far more control over these. By all means use the prayers as templates but you want to ask is that exactly what I think should be there. Does it connect with what is going on around in worship? Is the language right? As a general rule it rarely is and nearly always needs redrafting.
Now go back to the order of worship and see if it fits together, maybe a prayer needs moving, or a maybe if you swapped the first and last hymns. Is it a cohesive whole or has it failed to gel. How is it doing time wise, too long? I've used a pantomine earlier, but now perhaps a better metaphor would be to think of it as putting a film together. You need to fit the individual scenes into a whole so they make a story.
I have not addressed, symbolic actions, using responses or different approaches to the sermon. Nor have I addressed more more radical approaches to the Word or collaborative approaches (which is what I normally do) all these bring added complexity.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Well, of course.
First, I've never been good at off-the-cuff prayer composition, so I consulted the Service Book for ideas. Some prayers are good, some are dreadful, some just needed some editing before I used them and yes I did edit them.
But when its your first time out I believe in using all the resources at hand instead of expecting perfection. Our minister finds the Roman Missal inspiring and useful for the same reason and uses it the same way to compose the Sunday prayers. Of course he knows when to hit the edit button too. He also has the Lutheran Book of Worship and some other resources for prayer inspirations when the need arises.
I actually used the Bulletin from last week as a template, I just meant that our current order of service, believed to be new, is actually old and is substantially the same as the first order you outlined. I glossed over the 10% that's special to us because of local custom.
Celebrate God's Presence isn't a Prayer B**k as such, it's a Directory. Therefore you can lift the Prayers directly from the page, or edit them. It's understood that users will edit them as they use them more. But as I just bought it for the congregation I decided to show it off a bit. Value for money. Besides, I'm the guy who has the reputation of knowing when to change the hangings so the colours are proper so the congregation has come to expect me to be a bit "liturgical". They're fine with that and I know when to draw the line.
I'm not changing the Order of Service one bit, that was done a year ago, I'm just using our Service Book for inspiration for prayers that are expected.
Of course the hymns were suggestions. But the list is useful and after I looked at them (there are a list of five for so for each reading) I picked the ones the congregation knew and liked. That's how "Be Thou My Vision" got in and so did "God of Grace and God of Glory", sung to Cwm Rhondda. That tune is an absolute favourite of the organist's husband and the congregation likes it too. Once I saw how it fit I couldn't say no.
I had one brilliant idea for a sermon called "Christmas in July". The other two I haven't written yet. But when in need of inspiration, as you say, the readings (from the lectionary) are a good place to start. I don't like preaching on anecdotes; I'm much better doing history or trivia and making it interesting.
Matariki:
The distribution website is here. The combo binder and CD is $65 CAD. They say if you are outside Canada and the United States then you should contact ucrd@united-church.ca to arrange shipping.
If you are on a liturgical commission then I would go straight to the horse's mouth and order it direct.
[Fixed code. Tinyurl.com is your friend.]
[ 24. June 2011, 15:10: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
SPK
There is only one way to learn how to write prayers and find out what works, that is to write them and listen to the feed back when used in worship. That is what Cramner did, its what the best liturgists in English non-conformity do (why do you think we are over represented in modern prayer collections in the UK). You can only learn to write good prayers or liturgy if you are prepared to risk writing bad ones. Yes use prayers as a template but the delete button should be hit rather more often than not.
I have had a friend do the pick and mix prayer during worship, the change in language between them made the experience very odd.
Jengie
[ 23. June 2011, 20:25: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
Stop the Presses!
Protestant minister reinvents wheel; takes credit for heroic feat
Does this banner headline really surprise thee?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
There is nothing wrong at all with using the best prayers on offer as templates and guides. Particularly when starting out, they keep a noob on the right track, so the advantage is that SPK won't go far wrong if he uses them. And anyway, it sounds like he is selecting carefully and adapting as he goes along.
IME, I have never been able to lift straightfowardly someone else's prayer and slot it into the service, despite trying sometimes when I am still writing the service at 4am on Sunday morning! Mostly, other people's phrases just won't fit in my mouth - so I always end up tweaking and rewriting, so that the final form is usually quite different from the original. Nevertheless, reference to their prayers broadens my own approach with new ideas, new and arresting turns of phrase, and sometimes a new reverence. Have you ever had a look at Walter Brueggeman's prayers, SPK? For me, they were mindblowing - what can be done with a prayer! - and my own haven't been the same since.
Lastly, it is a good exercise sometimes simply to use someone else's prayer straight, just to see how it feels to use language other than your own, and to learn from how people respond. However, when I occasionally do this, I always explain that 'This is a prayer written by so-and-so', or 'taken from the Book of Common Order', or whatever. Otherwise it feels a bit like plagarism!
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Actually, I plan to haul out the Service Book and Hymn Book from the pulpit at the end of the service and say (Sesame Street style): "Today's service has been brought to you by the Lectionary in the back of the hymn book and the Service Book I just purchased for this church."
The organist will appreciate it because she has an excuse to play Cwm Rhondda. Her husband loves that tune like no other.
Interestingly, and in the light of family resemblance, the United Church of Canada has always had the two orders that Cottontail outlined. The first order was the main one authorized in the UCCan's 1930 Book of Common Order. It might be "evangelical" in the Kirk but it was also the customary service order in the Methodist Church of Canada too since it riffs on Evensong.
The next revision to the Service Book of 1969 emphasized the second order with the sermon in the middle as the primary order. That's the one most frequently encountered in most United Church congregations today. Our Divinity Schools since the 1960's have been emphasizing more frequent communion. The legal minimum according to the Manual is quarterly but monthly is common. Congregations that opt for a monthly schedule naturally gravitate to Order 2.
I agree that the First Order sends people out with the "Word of God" ringing in their ears. Our minister is a gifted preacher so if the shoe fits....
Anyway, I was hoping for a broad-ranging thread for the stuff that isn't Anglican. If matariki wants to compare notes I would be happy to oblige. I wasn't aiming for particular discussion of my service and preaching plans as much as general discussion of the United Church of Canada's Service Books and others in our own liturgical family like the Books of Common Order or various Methodist service books.
Also I have some Anglican friends like Augustine the Aleut who complain that they can't follow United Church services so well as we deviate from Prayer B**K norms. Since we're actually following the norms of the Church of Scotland's Books of Common Order perhaps this thread should be tagged for reference.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
|
Posted
I think the sermon-in-the-middle option makes better liturgical sense, but there are some factors working against it.
I'm used to the pattern of children being present in church for the first twenty minutes or so, and it makes sense for this to include the offering. It's the most overtly communal and participative bit of worship, usually.
As a result the final third can feel a bit thin: two hymns and prayers of intercession doesn't really balance. You can beef up intercessions by not just having a prayer, but a bit of information about what you're praying for, prayers led by someone with a personal involvement in what you're prayer for. Pictures are a possibility.
Intercessions are, of course, only indirectly a response to the Word. They are a good thing to do any time in their own right. A more direct response would be time to respond with more personal prayer, perhaps supported by music and pictures again. I've been in effective services where there has been the opportunity to write a prayer, or plant a seed or break a stick at this point. Not something I can imagine wanting to do regularly (though that bread and wine ritual holds up OK).
If worship includes communion, is that really supposed to be seen as response to the Word? It is obedience to 'Do this in memory of me,' but it's also a time to receive grace, and the gathering of the community is explicit, too.
So I think that the three blocks, Approach, Word, Response are not to be taken too seriously. Worship is more subtle, and there are many differing analyses that could be offered. One I like is to think of it much more simply as a journey inwards followed by a journey out again. Each element may advance the journey, and the hinge moment could come anywhere within the worship, and probably at different places for different worshippers.
And of course we have to see worship as embedded in life and something that shouldn't make complete sense if you just look at what happends within the church walls.
--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
|
Posted
To the best of my recollection, the order of service in the US Presbyterian Church (don't recall which group it was part of--this was the 70s and lots of switching about was ongoing):
Prelude
Opening Words
Doxology
Prayer
Hymn
Scripture Reading
Hymn
Offering
Announcements
Sermon
Hymn
Benediction
Postlude
--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
John Calvin always wrote a fresh prayer that followed the sermon, this picked up the themes of the sermon and led onto the response. These prayers have often been published, here is one for a sermon on the Beatitudes.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anchorman
Apprentice
# 16469
|
Posted
Sober Preacher's kid.
Firstly. can I offer my sympathies?
I take it you are the equivalent of the Church of Scotland Session Clerk?
How are the tranquilizers going?
Secondly, a plea from a younger middele aged visually impaired person;
To those of us preparing a hymn list.
Could you please pick at least one hymn/song that's an "oldie"?
The reason being that it makes those whose vision isn't too good feel part of the worship experience if they can sing one hymn/chorus they know off by heart.
I know from experience that when I do this, the comments from that section of the congregation are positive. In fact, it usually makes up for my sermon.
Posts: 25 | From: South West Scotland | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Anchorman
You could suggest they line a psalm or two ever so often.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anchorman
Apprentice
# 16469
|
Posted
Line a Psalm?
Unless it's a metrical one, anything else would be the equivalent of instant damnation, or stoning to death by hymnbooks ( I can't see them coming )
This is the Kirk I'm talking about...
Posts: 25 | From: South West Scotland | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Jengie, that was cheap.
Anchorman, sort of. In the United Church of Canada the Session has it's own independent chairperson, in my church's case, me. The Minister is an ex-officio member of Session but is not the chair, though he does of course drive the agenda most of the time by just doing his normal duties.
There is a separate Clerk who is actually a Clerk to record the Minutes.
When I was picking the hymns I did pick the ones that I know we know and like. There are a few modern praise songs in the hymn book that everyone knows and the large number of standard hymns that we also know, like "Be Thou My Vision" to SLANE or CWM RHONDDA for various words.
Summer isn't the time for new stuff.
I don't know what the Kirk has, but the UCCan follows North American practice of having the music score printed in the pew hymn books with the words in between the staves. Voices United was published in the 1990's so the font was enlarged from previous hymnals to accommodate those with vision problems.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Jengie, that was cheap.
Anchorman, sort of. In the United Church of Canada the Session has it's own independent chairperson, in my church's case, me. The Minister is an ex-officio member of Session but is not the chair, though he does of course drive the agenda most of the time by just doing his normal duties.
There is a separate Clerk who is actually a Clerk to record the Minutes.
When I was picking the hymns I did pick the ones that I know we know and like. There are a few modern praise songs in the hymn book that everyone knows and the large number of standard hymns that we also know, like "Be Thou My Vision" to SLANE or CWM RHONDDA for various words.
Summer isn't the time for new stuff.
I don't know what the Kirk has, but the UCCan follows North American practice of having the music score printed in the pew hymn books with the words in between the staves. Voices United was published in the 1990's so the font was enlarged from previous hymnals to accommodate those with vision problems.
The current edition of the Church Hymnary is a bit of a mixture. In the case of older, traditional, established or whatever you want to call them hymns, the tune is printed, then the words. Some items, mostly new, modern or whatever ... pieces have the words of the first verse between the staves of the tune. This can be a handy warning that they are likely to be a bit of a ******* to sing. So, on Pentecost, the visiting cleric soothingly remarked, sotto voce, 'Well done' to the congregation which had spectacularly failed to come to grips with a novelty ....
The Moderator of the Kirk Session is the Minister. They may order these things differently in Canada, of course, but Anchorman's surmise was quite perfectly natural from a Scottish viewpoint.
quote:
CWM RHONDDA for various words.
Eh? Guide me o thou great Redeemer , or, when in Wales, Wele'n sefyll rhwng y myrtwydd. Anything else is outrage!
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
I don't know, Metapelagius, I'm sure we could be flexible enough to allow SPK to sing Wele'n sefyll in Canada...
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
If I knew Welsh, which I don't.
CWM RHONDDA is co-listed for #686 "God of Grace and God of Glory" as well as for #651 "Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah".
Now if you want to sing that in French I can help you as Voices United has the French words printed underneath the English for "Guide Me..."
Or Ojibwe. Miigwech.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
I noticed is several of the examples given above that the scripture readings comes way before the sermon. My question would be if the sermon is based on the scripture for the day do you not find people would have forgotten much of the scripture by the time you start the sermon?
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I noticed is several of the examples given above that the scripture readings comes way before the sermon. My question would be if the sermon is based on the scripture for the day do you not find people would have forgotten much of the scripture by the time you start the sermon?
Not really - because it is not just the sermon that is structured around the readings, but the whole service. Hymns are chosen based on the readings; prayers echo the language of the readings; if there is a children's address, then it would usually act as a kind of introduction to the main text or to the theme of the readings. The whole service is a Service of the Word, and not just the sermon.
Besides, in our tradition, a good sermon will go over the Bible passage once again, retelling it in fresh form, and drawing out particular references. It will be very closely text-based, and not just a reflection on a theme sparked by the reading.
[ 25. June 2011, 23:52: Message edited by: Cottontail ]
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
No it was not SPK, it is however time you learnt more of the tradition.
Lining a psalm is exactly the way the Church of Scotland traditionally sang metrical psalms.
The cantor, chair of kirk session, but today I would expect we would someone who could actually sing, sang a line or two and the congregation sang it back at them. It was not cheap it was suggesting that part of the heritage and would put people with sight difficulties on the same footing as everyone else.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If I knew Welsh, which I don't.
CWM RHONDDA is co-listed for #686 "God of Grace and God of Glory" as well as for #651 "Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah".
Now if you want to sing that in French I can help you as Voices United has the French words printed underneath the English for "Guide Me..."
Or Ojibwe. Miigwech.
Hmm. Welsh, as everyone knows, is the language of heaven, so there is some incentive to get to know it.
God of grace ... Rhuddlan , but it depends what you are used to. There is an American metrical version of Ps 122 set to Cwm Rhondda - which also goes rather well to Daily Daily . Come to that, metrical psalmody should figure in any Reformed service if it is to respect Reformed tradition.
But French words to Cwm Rhondda - almost as improbable as this!
[ 26. June 2011, 09:37: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
You know it's a truly Reformed liturgical thread because nobody agrees with anybody else, somebody has accused another of being "ignorant of tradition" and you can see the impending schism.
Or is this where I play my Methodist Heritage Get out of Jail Free card, consult the service book and chill? Pass the lemon pie, please!
On a lighter note, the United Church of Canada has a collection (though not a full one) of French versions of hymns for our French-speaking congregations.
RUDDHLAN is an option for "God of Grace and God of Glory" but the organist's husband loves, absolutely loves CWM RHONDDA. So when "God of Grace and God of Glory" comes up in the lectionary as a suggestion, I am duty-bound to use it and have it played to CWM RHONDDA.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mettabhavana
Apprentice
# 16217
|
Posted
Rhuddlan is the usual tune to Judge eternal, throned in splendour. The lines
Still the weary folk are pining
For the hour that brings release
are apt for when the hymn sandwich goes stale, dry and curls at the edges.
--------------------
And are we yet alive?
Posts: 39 | From: London, England | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Round here if you played Cwm Rhondda people would probably sing Guide me O thou great Jehovah (or Arglwydd arwain...) anyway. Its probably one of the only three or four non-Christmas hymns the majority of British people have ever heard of.
(the others would be Amazing Grace and The Lord's my Shepherd - an older generation might have known Abide with me)
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
anon four
Shipmate
# 15938
|
Posted
Ah - I'd sing "Guide me O" to Cwm Rhondda but not "Arglwydd arwain"... Always feels an English thing to use CR for it (even if it is a Welsh tune and therefore a good thing).
I find that folk who follow the FA Cup Final in the UK know "Abide with me" - but each year has folk wanting "Away in a manger" for their August wedding.....
--------------------
Ό δε ανεξέταστος βίος ου βιωτος ανθρώπω.
Posts: 82 | From: Sunny South Coast, UK | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
The lines
Still the weary folk are pining
For the hour that brings release
are apt for when the hymn sandwich goes stale, dry and curls at the edges.
Reminds me of the Baptist communion hymn, in which the second part begins, "Too soon we rise ...". Not always peoples' sentiment, especially when you realise that Communion usually comes at the end of the service and you may have been there for quite a long time!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
The lines
Still the weary folk are pining
For the hour that brings release
are apt for when the hymn sandwich goes stale, dry and curls at the edges.
Reminds me of the Baptist communion hymn, in which the second part begins, "Too soon we rise ...". Not always peoples' sentiment, especially when you realise that Communion usually comes at the end of the service and you may have been there for quite a long time!
His hymn may be popular in Baptist circles, but Dr Bonar certainly wasn't a Baptist - having been Moderator of the General Assembly of the Free Church in the 1880s. Bonar had originally been Auld Kirk, but left in the Disruption. Shades of SPK's dark hints above of 'impending schism' ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Try
Shipmate
# 4951
|
Posted
Hey, I appear to be a bit late to this thread, but that won't stop me from adding my two cents.
Officially, the United Methodist Church only endorses the sermon-in-the-middle pattern of worship at this time. Unofficially, many United Methodist churches still follow the sermon-at-the-end pattern even though it's not printed in either our Hymnal or Book of Worship. Unlike the United Church of Canada, the UMC's epicilisis calls on the holy spirit to be poured out on both the congregation and the elements, and affirms the Presence of Christ in both the elements and the congregation. That said, the trial liturgies used at the West Ohio Conference definitely moved the epiclisis in a memorialist direction.
--------------------
“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
|
Posted
Try, although that pattern has been authorized, suggested, and recommended (almost on bended knee with hands clasped as if in prayer) since 1989 most United Methodists, at least in the Heart of (Southern Baptist) Dixie, are exasperatingly ignorant of it. I began using the Word and Table pattern at my new place at Christ the King and after 8 months I still have many complaints that my "Catholic" worship style is not Methodist. I have explained until I am blue in the face. I'm so tired of hearing that I'm going to throw my Book of Worship at the next person I hear say it!
--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
I grew up on Word and Table, that being Ma and Pa Preacher's preferred pattern or the preferred pattern of the churches I attended with my grandparents.
What's the communion frequency in your current charge, Circuit Rider? If you go for around monthly I can certainly understand why you like the pattern.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I grew up on Word and Table, that being Ma and Pa Preacher's preferred pattern or the preferred pattern of the churches I attended with my grandparents.
What's the communion frequency in your current charge, Circuit Rider? If you go for around monthly I can certainly understand why you like the pattern.
The frequency for Holy Communion I inherited is monthly, on the first Sunday of the month. I am working toward weekly observance, but have chosen to gradually increase by adding all important days regardless of the Sunday on which they fall. So now I will have a first Sunday Eucharist, and if the next week is Pentecost followed by Trinity Sunday I will celebrate those Sundays too. I will also do evening vespers with Holy Communion for Christmas Eve, Eve of Epiphany, and Ash Wednesday. I'm looking for all the excuses I can to increase the frequency of the sacrament.
--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
|
Posted
Oh, and one more thing. As I increase awareness of weekly sacrament I still use the Word and Table pattern on the Sundays I do not celebrate Holy Communion. I offer instead a prayer of thanksgiving, reminding the congregation that a form of thanksgiving needs to be included, if not a full Great Thanksgiving, at least a prayer of thanksgiving. It of course includes the traditional greeting and sursum corda of the Great Thanksgiving. The two prayers of thanksgiving in the BCP work wonderfully here, and sometimes I write one of my own which is reminiscent of the Great Thanksgiving.
[ 02. July 2011, 00:29: Message edited by: Circuit Rider ]
--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Well, that's two of three services down. I have had a hymn book thrown at my head yet.
I expanded the Hymn Sandwich a bit, our minister usually does two readings, I do three, Old Testament, Gospel and Epistle.
We don't have Sunday School in the summer; last week we didn't have any kids, which wasn't a surprise as it was the July 1st Long Weekend.
This time we did so I did an improv Children's Lesson the United Church of Canada's logo which hangs at the back of our sanctuary on the narthex wall. I worked in what a Methodist was by illustrating what church you would go to in Florida. That question actually happens, my uncle called Ma Preacher one day asking "what are we, where do I go?" when he wanted to choose a church in Florida where he lived.
I actually got the reverse today, by chance some American vacationers were in the congregation. They appreciated the explanation because the church selection in Canada and the United States isn't the same and you'd be hard pressed to find a Methodist Church. So my lesson was more topical than I intended.
I thought that might be the case when I saw some American notes in the collection plate.
So now some Americans have the Secret Decoder Ring to Churches in Canada.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
Well done, SPK! I am glad they went well.
It is always a good idea to have a children's address up your sleeve. When training, I did a placement that included a tiny country church. The children present could be (a) none; (b) one five year old; (c) four serious half-German siblings ranging from nine to fifteen years old; or (d) the occasional crowd of Cub Scouts (or similar) from the local outdoor centre.
Basically, the address intended for the five year old simply would not do if he was not there, but the German siblings were - and vice versa. We usually had warning re. the Cub Scouts, but not always. And then, if there were no children, the congregation still appreciated a lighter introduction to the theme of the sermon. So I learned to have at least three versions of my children's address to cover all eventualities.
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
In my visits to the Kirk and the Wee Free I have run into the sermon in the middle option, which I seem to think predominates in the Kirk, and sermon at the end which seems to predominate in the Wee Free. I am not sure which works better. For my money, if the minister is a good preacher, then sermon at the end, because he'll have given me something to chew on. If they are crap, then put it in middle and let me look forward to the intercessions and blessing.
My tangles with Methodism have tended to be more-or-less a loose form Ante-Communion service.
Hymn
Call to Worship
General Confession
Declaration of Forgiveness
OT or NT
Hymn
Gospel
Hymn
Sermon
Hymn
Intercession
Notices
Blessing
Hymn
Organ postlude
Which works right enough.
Even though I am a Piskie I tend to revert to the hymn sandwich format in the form of Matins whenever High Churchfolk (including a good percentage of my Congo) are not looking.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
To the best of my recollection, the order of service in the US Presbyterian Church (don't recall which group it was part of--this was the 70s and lots of switching about was ongoing):
Prelude
Opening Words
Doxology
Prayer
Hymn
Scripture Reading
Hymn
Offering
Announcements
Sermon
Hymn
Benediction
Postlude
Late to the party, but . . .
I think it's safe to say that this sort of order, once common in American Presbyterian congregations, starting becoming more rare in the late 60s and early 70s, at least in the congregations that are now part of the PC(USA). That's when The Worshipbook -- the one time we've tried a combination service book and hymnal -- appeared.
While it never caught on as a hymnal, The Worshipbook it was fairly influential as a service book. It put forward basically a Presbyterian version of the Western Rite: the Service for the Lord's Day. Specifically, it put forward the Service with Communion as the norm, with the alternative ("when the Lord's Supper is not celebrated . . . .") being basically an ante-communion with offertory/offering. (The Worshipbook also influenced the majority of congregations to move to monthly (at least) celebration of Communion.)
This is the order that is followed (more or less) in every Presbyterian church I'm familiar with and I think it's safe to say it's followed in the solid majority of PC(USA) congregations. It's the model reflected in the current Directory for Worship (part of our governing document The Book of Order), the current Book of Common Worship and the current hymnal, as well as the model proposed for the new hymnal in preparation.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
The funny thing is I have never been to a Presbyterian or Methodist service where there was only one lesson from Scripture. Generally, there have been two, sometimes three, and more often than nor with a psalm (metrical in the C of S; prose in the Methodist Church) for full measure.
The only time I have encountered only one lesson is in Anglican Family Services and then only quite recently. It is a tend I would strong depreciate as Sunday worship - at least to my mind - requires two hefty, but related, doses of Scripture and a Psalm so the preacher has something to chew on.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
Okay, here's a question. When there is a baptism, at what point in the service does your church hold it?
Theologically and liturgically, Sacrament is supposed to come after Word, as a sign and seal. That is always the case with Communion. But I have only seen this with baptism a couple of times. More usually, the Sacrament of Baptism is held at the start of the service, usually in the 'Children's Address' slot. The rationalle is usually a practical and pastoral one: so that the parents don't have to sit anxiously through the entire service with a crying baby and often a rampaging 2 year old in tow. But is this then Sacrament without Word?
Also, has anyone ever done a service with Baptism
and Communion? How did you work it? How did the timing go?
Thanks ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
|
Posted
Yes, I would usually put the baptism after the sermon, and have communion in the same service. I don't think baptism is complete without reception into membership, which needs to be as part of the Lord's Supper. It makes a slightly longer service, but that's OK. I usually get someone to offer prayer for those baptised while we wet ones are out getting changed.
Baptism is one of the most interesting things we do in church, so it's right for the children to be present. If they have to go out, because they're too bored, then they should come back in the for baptism.
If I was worried about the sermon being too dull for children, I would split it.
--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
Thanks, hatless. It would usually work the same way with us when it is an adult believer's baptism followed by an admission to membership and Communion. I guess I am asking more about practice with infant baptism, which doesn't tend to be followed by Communion here.
I can see that there is a practical common sense to having the infant baptism at the beginning, because all the children present can witness it, and then leave before the sermon as they usually do. The baptismal party can also leave then, if they wish, and if the baby is screaming! Such baptisms are often accompanied by a large group of family and friends, including many small children who are unfamiliar with church. The whole thing can be pretty much on the edge of chaos for the duration of the baptism, and no one really gets to listen to the service until the children have gone out.
I know from my own sister's experience, that when she had a 4 year old and a 2 year old, and the baby was being baptised, that she thoroughly disliked having the baptism after the sermon. She didn't hear a word of the service beforehand, and spend the time in a state of anxiety that the baby would yell and the other two throw a tantrum. (The church didn't have a Sunday School at that point.) The theological niceties were lost on her, and didn't weigh anything with her compared to her discomfort.
However, the theological niceties do matter rather more to me. Other ways round this I have seen, are to have the baptismal party come in only after the sermon. But that seemed rather to defeat the liturgical purpose, at least for the family concerned, and can even make the baptism look like an afterthought. After all, you wouldn't have people just come in for Communion. I am just wondering how others arrange things so that these aspects are all balanced.
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
I would go with after the NT lesson assuming the two lessons are OT and NT respectively. There seems to be something right about doing it after the NT lesson. After all, effect of baptism is dependent on our response to the Gospel. We baptise infants on the basis of the charitable presumption that they are indeed elect, and will respond to the call of the Gospel with a Christian life. If the NT lesson happens to be a Gospel passage so much the better. If it happens to be an Epistle, then one is hearing Paul, John, etc's response to, and explanation of, the Gospel. Makes sense to me.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The funny thing is I have never been to a Presbyterian . . . service where there was only one lesson from Scripture.
Nor I. One reading from the OT and at least one from the NT is the norm for Presbyterians in my experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Okay, here's a question. When there is a baptism, at what point in the service does your church hold it?
Theologically and liturgically, Sacrament is supposed to come after Word, as a sign and seal. That is always the case with Communion. But I have only seen this with baptism a couple of times. More usually, the Sacrament of Baptism is held at the start of the service, usually in the 'Children's Address' slot. The rationalle is usually a practical and pastoral one: so that the parents don't have to sit anxiously through the entire service with a crying baby and often a rampaging 2 year old in tow. But is this then Sacrament without Word?
I would say yes. All the liturgical materials I know of from the PC(USA) place baptism, whether of infants or adults, after the sermon, and every congregation I have been part of does it that way. I do know of some that baptize infants after the confession/assurance of pardon and before the readings, possibly for the reasons you suggest. We just took our kids to the nursery before church started and then slipped out during the hymn after the sermon to bring them to the sanctuary. In my experience, that is what's normally done, unless the only child in question is a sleeping infant.
And for what it's worth, we do the "children's address" immediately before the sermon, after the readings, and not early in the service. Except in special situations, what is said to the children is based on or follows from one of the readings. We take is as being part of the faith formation: What we do in church is gather, listen to the readings and then reflect on them in a children's sermon/sermon.
[ 14. July 2011, 18:39: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
We always have the children up for baptisms. As a Session we see it as important to include them.
Now that I think about it, we usually baptize after the first hymn, after the Readings and after the Children's Lesson. So we stumbled upon PD's suggestion though I don't think we put so much thought into it.
In fairness to everyone including the kids I think reading the Gospel at least and then baptizing is both theologically sound and pastorally sensitive to kids who won't appreciate a sermon and parents who have a young family to attend to.
Though I must say that with a decline in Sunday school numbers comes a greater appreciation for kids. I have been in churches were there were no kids. Interruption by a crying baby is one of those problems you WANT to have.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
