Thread: Eccles: Jubilee Services - mainly for UK Shipmates.... Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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.....but Commonwealth peeps also, I guess!
As you know, next weekend we celebrate the Diamond Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. I expect there are various local celebrations where you are, but how are you marking the occasion in worship?
We are retaining the propers for Trinity Sunday, but we shall be using some at least of the Jubilee prayers from the C of E website, and we have the following hymns:
And did those feet in ancient times (requested by one of our churchwardens);
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God almighty (coz it's Trinity Sunday);
Jesus is Lord! Creation's voice proclaims it! (coz Jesus is our ultimate King IYSWIM);
The National Anthem (coz it seems appropriate on this occasion, to say the least!).
Cheese and wine after Mass, and a Loyal Toast...
...and some of our people are involved in an evening concert (at a nearby sixth-form college) in aid of Help for Heroes and Combat Stress, which again is an appropriate occasion.
AFAIK, there are no other (immediately) local events, and I'm beginning to think that we should have perhaps taken the lead with a Big Lunch in the street in front of the church, or summink - but I get the impression that maybe there's about as much enthusiasm for the Jubilee around here as there is for the Borelympic Games......
Ian J.
[ 12. September 2012, 17:56: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
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The what...? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
We'll make mention in the intercessions, but other than that we're sticking with Trinity Sunday.
Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on
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We're keeping the readings etc for Trinity Sunday, but are probably going to use the CofE Jubilee prayer somewhere (link here). There will also be mention made in intercessions, and we'll no doubt be singing Jerusalem and the National Anthem!
[Link fixed. Using "tinyurl.com" will get rid of those pesky % signs.]
[ 13. June 2012, 16:32: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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At St Clement's Philadelphia a Te Deum is being sung at the conclusion of Mass, in thanksgiving for the 60 year reign of HMQ. Otherwise, standard Trinity Sunday stuff, including this year the Athanasian Creed being sung in procession, not a practice there in recent years at least.
All Saints Margaret Street will no doubt be following the same observances as at the Golden Jubilee -- mention in the intercessions and the national anthem sung at the conclusion of Mass (the music is a certainty, for it is all listed in the music diary for Trinity Sunday on the ASMS website).
Sadly, I shall miss out on the festivities at St Clement's but will be present at Margaret Street for the occasion.
Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on
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The papists around here will be doing what we've been told to do by our bishops. God save the Queen.
PS. I'm still preaching about the Trinity.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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There'll be a Choral Evensong for the Diamond Jubilee at Chicago Cathedral.
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
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Meaning no offence to anyone, it seems very strange to me that US Churches are having Diamond Jubilee celebrations...
...oh, and someone should tell them it's not the 60th anniversary of her coronation.
[ 26. May 2012, 14:17: Message edited by: seasick ]
Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
...oh, and someone should tell them it's not the 60th anniversary of her coronation.
Do we get to do the same again next year?
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
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I hope not!
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Meaning no offence to anyone, it seems very strange to me that US Churches are having Diamond Jubilee celebrations...
...oh, and someone should tell them it's not the 60th anniversary of her coronation.
You're right, of course, about what this is the anniversary of (accession, but respectfully removed from the actual date because it's also the date of the death of her father? or better weather?). As for US churches, I think we can celebrate something we're glad about and feel at least slightly connected to via our C of E heritage. Doesn't amount to treason or anything. And it's a fine reason for a big two-choirs event.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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Luckily, we are a leftie church so there will be no mention of the Queen unless someone sentimental is doing the intercessions.
Trinity Sunday is all we want.
Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on
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At my shack we shall be doing Trinity.
Shall sing God Save the Queen after the Benediction.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Meaning no offence to anyone, it seems very strange to me that US Churches are having Diamond Jubilee celebrations...
...oh, and someone should tell them it's not the 60th anniversary of her coronation.
You're right, of course, about what this is the anniversary of (accession, but respectfully removed from the actual date because it's also the date of the death of her father? or better weather?). As for US churches, I think we can celebrate something we're glad about and feel at least slightly connected to via our C of E heritage. Doesn't amount to treason or anything. And it's a fine reason for a big two-choirs event.
There are more than a few crypto- and not so crypto- monarchists in TEC. Besides which, St Clement's Philly has a British rector who is a monarchist.
Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luckily, we are a leftie church so there will be no mention of the Queen unless someone sentimental is doing the intercessions.
Trinity Sunday is all we want.
How thoroughly graceless of you. She is, after all, your Supreme Governor.
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on
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While this Catholic American wishes we could have prayer for Catholic monarchs, especially the Habsburgs, I am fairly certain my pastor will work something into the Mass about the 60th Jubilee!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luckily, we are a leftie church so there will be no mention of the Queen unless someone sentimental is doing the intercessions.
Trinity Sunday is all we want.
How thoroughly graceless of you. She is, after all, your Supreme Governor.
She is unelected, has refused any discussion of her role and costs a lot of money which should go to the poor, in the spirit of the gospel.
The Church of England sucks up to the establishment and the moment it is disestablished cannot come too soon.
Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
She is unelected
Is that a condition of leadership in your "leftie church".
quote:
has refused any discussion of her role
Which role? When?
quote:
and costs a lot of money
About a third of what any comparable Head of State costs their countries.
quote:
which should go to the poor, in the spirit of the gospel.
Is this a leftie version of Godwin's Law? If not, it is still an unsubstantiated assertion than a serious contribution to the debate.
quote:
The Church of England sucks up to the establishment and the moment it is disestablished cannot come too soon.
It always has. It is how it began, how it has almost always acted and how it will carry on. It's in its DNA and it won't change...ever. You'd best accommodate yourself to it.
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on
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Was wondering if anyone has ever participated in a BCP Accession Service ?
I don't think I've even had a conversation about this service or ever read if it has been used in the past few decades. Perhaps there are places that use it verbatim every year, I just don't know about it.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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The chapels royal?
[deleted duplicate post]
[ 26. May 2012, 21:55: Message edited by: seasick ]
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on
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Of course, there are assuredly at least a couple of Americans who use it privately. I'm not sure why though.
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I hope not!
I can divulge that in some places we most certainly will.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
She is unelected
Is that a condition of leadership in your "leftie church".
quote:
has refused any discussion of her role
Which role? When?
quote:
and costs a lot of money
About a third of what any comparable Head of State costs their countries.
quote:
which should go to the poor, in the spirit of the gospel.
Is this a leftie version of Godwin's Law? If not, it is still an unsubstantiated assertion than a serious contribution to the debate.
quote:
The Church of England sucks up to the establishment and the moment it is disestablished cannot come too soon.
It always has. It is how it began, how it has almost always acted and how it will carry on. It's in its DNA and it won't change...ever. You'd best accommodate yourself to it.
Too much for me at this time of night - but - why do we have to have a 'head of state'?
The title 'supreme governor' stuck during the reign (I think) of an adulterous king who wanted to separate two provinces from the rest of the Western Church - and i want to return to it - with the rest, not individually or via the odinariate.
The campaign group Republic's '60 Inglorious Years' suggests that quote:
e Queen’s reign has been characterised by “personal enrichment, feeble leadership and an obstinate refusal to allow real scrutiny of her role”. ...we have a silent monarch, offering nothing but an empty space where an inspiring leader could be.”
The Queen is also accused of “blurring the line between national assets and private wealth” and displaying a “cavalier disregard for public money”.“We’re told that even republicans must accept without question that the Queen has ‘done a good job’ and ‘not put a foot wrong’. This kind of McCarthy-style silencing of dissent is unacceptable in a modern democracy.”
must dig out my old badge from the 25th jubilee which read, 'Who are the scroungers? Stuff the Jubilee.'
Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Too much for me at this time of night - but - why do we have to have a 'head of state'?
Excellent response. I have no idea.
quote:
The title 'supreme governor' stuck during the reign (I think) of an adulterous king who wanted to separate two provinces from the rest of the Western Church - and i want to return to it - with the rest, not individually or via the
Well, I seem to remember that bad King Hal was "Supreme Head". It was his bastard daughter by the Adultress Ann who finessed it to "Supreme Governor". Nonetheless, your lovely diocesan Bishop took an oath to uphold Brenda in that position.
quote:
The campaign group Republic's '60 Inglorious Years' suggests that quote:
e Queen’s reign has been characterised by “personal enrichment, feeble leadership and an obstinate refusal to allow real scrutiny of her role”. ...we have a silent monarch, offering nothing but an empty space where an inspiring leader could be.”
The Queen is also accused of “blurring the line between national assets and private wealth” and displaying a “cavalier disregard for public money”.“We’re told that even republicans must accept without question that the Queen has ‘done a good job’ and ‘not put a foot wrong’. This kind of McCarthy-style silencing of dissent is unacceptable in a modern democracy.”
Lovely bit of 1970s agitprop that. Powerful antidote to the double bank holiday. Almost enough to make me feel guilty...almost, but not quite.
quote:
must dig out my old badge from the 25th jubilee which read, 'Who are the scroungers? Stuff the Jubilee.'
On my way from Oxford to Cuddesdon last Wednesday, I was very struck by the graffiti on the old railway bridge at Horsepath. It read, "Sod the Silver Jubilee" . Thirty five years of protest: unanswered, uncleaned. How simply marvellous...and to think, the undergraduate probably responsible is now in his or her mid-fifties and respectable. The joys of Britain.
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on
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I fear that, being Anglicans in a Commonwealth Realm, we may get something. I most sincerely hope not. I'm with Leo on the value of the monarchy.
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Was wondering if anyone has ever participated in a BCP Accession Service ?
I don't think I've even had a conversation about this service or ever read if it has been used in the past few decades. Perhaps there are places that use it verbatim every year, I just don't know about it.
We sang it in the chapel of my Cambridge college for the Golden Jubilee followed by a good dinner in hall.
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
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I'm also with leo on this.
Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on
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No mention of it at all! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on
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Oops- just remembered I went into the creche during the sermon, with my 3 new God children, so something may have slipped under the net- but I doubt it!
Posted by Jante (# 9163) on
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Mama Thomas
We held an Accession service at Cuddesdon, on the date of the accession this year.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
your lovely diocesan Bishop took an oath to uphold Brenda in that position.
It was nearly 20 years ago, at my admission and licensing, but I think I had to take a similar oath, along with an oath about the 39 articles. See, I am both a liar and a hypocrite!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
She is unelected
Is that a condition of leadership in your "leftie church".
Indeed not. My license has to be renewed every three years and every time there is a new incumbent. Both s/he and the PCC have to vote to approve or disapprove.
Unlike the RCC, the bishop doesn't foist staff upon parishes without their consent.
[ 27. May 2012, 18:46: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]which should go to the poor, in the spirit of the gospel.
Is this a leftie version of Godwin's Law? If not, it is still an unsubstantiated assertion than a serious contribution to the debate.
quote:
The Church of England sucks up to the establishment and the moment it is disestablished cannot come too soon.
It always has. It is how it began, how it has almost always acted and how it will carry on. It's in its DNA and it won't change...ever. You'd best accommodate yourself to it.
No, it is based on liberation theology, a theology grown out of RCC moral teaching but which the Vatican has tried to crush at times, The preferential option for the poor - if her maj. is some sort of defender of the faith, than she should defend those poor which the faith teaches.
As for the C of E sucking up to establishment, consider the ructions when Archbishop Runcie prayed for the 'enemy' dead at the Falklands thanksgiving service, or the work of the late and very loved Canon Eric James' Faith and the City' about urban priority areas - it was often said that the C of E was a better opposition than the Labour Party in the Thatcher era.
I shall continue my lifetime practice of sitting down when I encounter the national anthem (except on remembrance Sunday - a whole host of other issues).
I hope I can dig out my 'God save the queen. the fascist regime' should the street party below my window get noisy and patriotic.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
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Hostly Blue Scarf On
Leo, you're <> this close to crusading. Please drop the anti-monarchist argument or take it to Purg.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
Hostly Blue Scarf Off
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
There'll be a Choral Evensong for the Diamond Jubilee at Chicago Cathedral.
Any Chicago-based Shippies want to do a mini-meet afterwards? PM me.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
I fear that, being Anglicans in a Commonwealth Realm, we may get something. I most sincerely hope not. I'm with Leo on the value of the monarchy.
Madame and I both voted for the republic in the referendum, but HM is still our queen and our head of state (no, the GG is not, but we won't go down that path). She has shown a strong sense of duty and also to take her role as a Christian monarch, one of whose realms has as established the church of which she is Supreme Governor on earth, very seriously indeed.
There will be a special prayer in the intercessions for her, and for our nation.
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
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It is somewhat confusing to celebrate the accession jubilee on the 59th anniversary of the Coronation, but I can only assume that the weather is better in the UK in June than in February.
The Monarch's official birthday is always in June, a tradition lost in the mists of the early 20th century. So why not the Jubilee?
And, please God, we will celebrate her Coronation anniversary next year. I hope she is about for the 70th anniversary.
Posted by Laud-able (# 9896) on
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On Sunday 3 June we shall join in the celebration of Her Majesty’s Diamond Jubilee with appropriate prayers, and by the singing of the first and third verses* of God Save The Queen, and by processing out to Walton’s Orb and Sceptre.
*We shall think the words of the second verse, but it would of course be too unkind to sing them.
Posted by Matariki (# 14380) on
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I shall no doubt include a prayer for her continuing health and well being in our intercessions but we will not sing either God Save The Queen or God Defend New Zealand. If memory serves me right we prayed for Prince William and Catherine on the Sunday after their wedding - as well as for a couple who I had married on that same day. The monarchy is presently very popular here in New Zealand and was boosted by Prince William's visit to Christchurch last year - however its popularity is decideldly stronger amongst older people and even our centre right PM thinks a republic is inevitable.
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on
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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
It is somewhat confusing to celebrate the accession jubilee on the 59th anniversary of the Coronation, but I can only assume that the weather is better in the UK in June than in February.
The selection of the date of the coronation to celebrate the jubilee is driven less by weather and more by the fact that the anniversary of the queen's accession is also the anniversary of her father's death. The accession anniversary is a personal and poignant day, and I recall this being noted in previous jubilee years.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Too much for me at this time of night - but - why do we have to have a 'head of state'?
Excellent response. I have no idea.
Quick question - anyone remember who the Head of State of Switzerland is? No, I thought not.
Anyway, our parish notice thingy labels the day "Trinity Sunday".
But there is a rather odd and disturbing line on the next page: "Jubilee Weekend, Trinity Sunday – please wear red, white or blue for the service but we’re not having any special celebration here. If you have local celebrations such as a Big Lunch, please join in with that."
Red, white, and blue? Who ordered that?
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Red, white, and blue? Who ordered that?
The Jubilee gets its own liturgical colours now? Curiouser and curiouser!
(Although I suppose wearing diamonds in its honour might be rather fun...)
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
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I like verse 4! :
quote:
4. Not in this land alone
But be God's mercies known
From shore to shore
Lord make the nations see
That men should brothers be
And form one family
The wide world over
Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on
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Our republican music director is taking the opportunity of the Jubilee to bin his principles and do as much coronation music as humanly possible including Zadok, I Was Glad, and heaven knows what else. Should be fun.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
...
And did those feet in ancient times (requested by one of our churchwardens);
No they didn't actually ..... Psalm 101 here (David's coronation Psalm - a commitment to character and a commitment to lead.
No National Anthem - I'm too much of a republican to countenance it in church. We're focussing on a faithful God who inspires faithful service.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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I believe William Blake supported the French Revolution (and I suppose you know what that unfortunate movement lead to?)
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on
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At our church on Tuesday 5 June we are showing the Thanksgiving Service from St Paul's on a big screen as our Liturgy of the Word, then we will have our own Gospel Reading, the Peace, Offertory Hymn and the rest of the Liturgy of the Sacrament (and refreshments on the lawn outside afterwards).
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
...
And did those feet in ancient times (requested by one of our churchwardens);
No they didn't actually ..... Psalm 101 here (David's coronation Psalm - a commitment to character and a commitment to lead.
Mmmm. Isn't that the point Blake is putting across?
'And did those feet....?' Well, no, obviously they didn't any more than Jerusalem was builded here among dark Satanic mills; so we will build Jerusalem here, hence all the bringing-me-my-bowing and charioting.
I've never understood why so many people think that Blake's opening question is supposed to be taken as a statement that Christ came to England.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luckily, we are a leftie church so there will be no mention of the Queen unless someone sentimental is doing the intercessions.
Trinity Sunday is all we want.
As a republican Anglican, presumably you'd be happy for the CofE to be disestablished?
It seems to me, though, that without the Queen as head of the church, and without establishment, the CofE might cease to exist as a single body. There'd be no reason for all these people with different beliefs and practices to be united in one denomination.
Anyway, as a Methodist, I doubt that the marjoity of Methodist churches will be making much of a fuss. The Queen might be mentioned briefly, but most Methodist churches don't often pray for the Queen. Googling 'Methodist church golden jubilee 2012 uk' doesn't bring up much activity, although many churches don't put their activities on the net anyway. I suppose there might be some ecumenical activities. In my area, the jubilee lunches and festivities are being put on by the CofE.
I suspect that for some churches, the golden jubilee is more a way of connecting with the enthusiasm of the wider community, rather than representing an opportunity for churches to express their patriotism.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I've never understood why so many people think that Blake's opening question is supposed to be taken as a statement that Christ came to England.
Thus the description I've heard of the first stanza as comprising four questions the answer to each of which is "No."
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Oops! It is, of course, the Queen's Diamond Jubilee, not her Golden Jubilee! There are a few more events listed on the net when one googles the right thing! Nevertheless, I'm not convinced that royalism is high up on the list of Methodist characteristics, as it were. But we all enjoy a bit of cake and a celebration.
Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on
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We will have a service for Trinity. Including Trinitarian hymns covering the full range of Christian experience from Adoration to Confession to Pilgrimage to Dedication/Commitment.
We shall say prayers for the Queen during the Intercessions.
And we shall sing vv 1 and 3 of the National Anthem after the Benediction / Blessing at the end of the service.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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I am not an enthusiastic republican. I like having a ceremonial head of state. I admire Elizabeth II for undertaking her peculiar job without sentimentality.
However I am very suspicious of the sycophancy and adulation which the monarchy can inspire, particularly linked to right wing political views.
There are people I know who are determined republicans on principal, and I intellectually accept their position.
It is wretched that being a monarchist should be regarded as being synonymous with being an Anglican. Remember the Queen and community celebrations in the intercessions, by all means, but no National Anthem, please.
Establishment is a poisonous position. The justification for the Anglicanism is in being a queer part of the catholic church.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Establishment is a poisonous position. The justification for the Anglicanism is in being a queer part of the catholic church.
Can you explain your second sentence here, please?
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Establishment is a poisonous position. The justification for the Anglicanism is in being a queer part of the catholic church.
Can you explain your second sentence here, please?
Venbede is quite at liberty to explain himself - but not here. Ecclesiantics is for the discussion of liturgy and it seems that this thread is again wandering!
Please return to the OP, people.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on
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I always find it strange to see American churches doing it up royal for HMTQ. On the other hand, scratch an Episcopalian (especially of the A/C flavor) and you will often find a monarchist. At my former TEC parish, the rector got all giddy after he wrote to the King of Spain to offer sympathy for the Madrid train bombings and got back a thank you letter on the royal letterhead. Were he still rector, I imagine that Sunday would be a festival of royal adoration.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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On Accession Day itself, Westminster Abbey sang as the anthem at Evensong William Byrd's "O Lord make thy servant Elizabeth", a work that was liturgically unperformable from 1603 to 1952.
(Thank dj. I won't say any more other than it's to do with the sacramental nature of the church.)
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
...
And did those feet in ancient times (requested by one of our churchwardens);
No they didn't actually ..... Psalm 101 here (David's coronation Psalm - a commitment to character and a commitment to lead.
Mmmm. Isn't that the point Blake is putting across?
'And did those feet....?' Well, no, obviously they didn't any more than Jerusalem was builded here among dark Satanic mills; so we will build Jerusalem here, hence all the bringing-me-my-bowing and charioting.
I've never understood why so many people think that Blake's opening question is supposed to be taken as a statement that Christ came to England.
Isn't it harking back to the legend of when Christ came with Joseph of Arimathea to England? Presumably it can be taken on a number of levels?
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on
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And just to mention that our nearest parish church will have sung by the choir Parry's "I Was Glad" and Handel's "Zadok the Priest". It is one of the few parish churches to have the tomb of a king so all is quite appropriate.
There will also be a procession through the streets headed by a flunkey holding up a plate containing a sirloin of beef. There will be much dancing, drinking and smoking in celebration.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Isn't it harking back to the legend of when Christ came with Joseph of Arimathea to England? Presumably it can be taken on a number of levels?
At least in part, yes - the myth seems to have intrigued Blake, who used as a subject for a rather striking print as well. I think it would be a brave man who would attempt to fathom precisely what Blake did mean!
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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Well, I shall be a brave man( ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
) and say with Oblatus, that it seems fairly clear all the responses to the poet's queries in the first verse are intended to be 'no'. No doubt Blake knew of the myth, and it seems to me this is his response - a bit fat 'no!'; along the lines of, don't be silly - Jesus didn't come to England, any more than Jerusalem was built in this land of heartless industry and oppressed workers. If Christ had come, and the Holy City established (his kingdom?), England would be a green and pleasant land without the dark Satanic mills. Hence the second verse: give me the tools and I will build 'Jerusalem'. Good old Blake!
Or something like that.
Certainly, I can't be sure what was going on in Blake's head when he wrote it (dangerous place to be, probably!) - but it's the only way that, as a poem, it can make coherent sense, considering the verse that follows. But it's true that these things can operate on different levels.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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What Anselmina said.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
And if anyone asks me why we're singing this hymn (even though it's not my personal choice - or favourite), I'll use that explanation!
Ian J.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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It's a very good explanation indeed... but it still leads me to recast my original comment to say that anyone who expects Blake to go in for 'coherent sense' is even braver!
(None of which relates to why one would connect with the Jubilee however, beyond the mention of 'England', though...)
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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Our sister church is having a Jubilee Songs of Praise. No TV cameras, but lots of flowers and a Wedding Dress exhibition.
Posted by aumbry (# 436) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Well, I shall be a brave man( ) and say with Oblatus, that it seems fairly clear all the responses to the poet's queries in the first verse are intended to be 'no'. No doubt Blake knew of the myth, and it seems to me this is his response - a bit fat 'no!'; along the lines of, don't be silly - Jesus didn't come to England, any more than Jerusalem was built in this land of heartless industry and oppressed workers. If Christ had come, and the Holy City established (his kingdom?), England would be a green and pleasant land without the dark Satanic mills. Hence the second verse: give me the tools and I will build 'Jerusalem'. Good old Blake!
Or something like that.
That seems a somewhat Gradgrindian interpretation. The suggestion is that there was a Jerusalem in the past and that it could be rebuilt, but indeed the nature of the poem is to be ambiguous.
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on
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Chipping in to agree with Anselmina. It seems to me that these words represent the best sort of patriotism - I love my country so much I will work to make it better than it is.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
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I don't think Anselmina's reading is Gradgrindian at all, Aumbry! Bear in mind, too, the context in which Blake first printed it, in the Preface to his epic 'Milton' (an extremely Blakean mystical poem).
In any case, we're having it at our Evensong tomorrow because everyone here (including me) loves to sing it!
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Well......
It's a cold, cheerless, damp, dank day here in this corner of Our Lady's Dowry, after torrential rain last night, but the Faithful Few (and a couple of visitors) duly celebrated Trinity Sunday and marked HM's big day by praying for her (using the C of E's special prayer for the Jubilee), singing the National Anthem, and raising a glass at Coffee (and wine)Hour after Mass.
Ian J.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
I thought the line in the National Anthem about "long to reign over us" was a bit redundant, as the prayer has obviously been granted.
We sang "All people that on earth do dwell" to the setting written by Vaughan Williams for the Coronation, which I thought was a nice touch.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
We sang "All people that on earth do dwell" to the setting written by Vaughan Williams for the Coronation, which I thought was a nice touch.
Oooh, very nice! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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What with being in the Republic, and having Trinity and Baptisms and the like, the whole thing passed off without a notice.
I am however enjoying a glass of fizz in honour of the occasion which strikes me as quite celebration enough...
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on
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A compromise here.
We kept Trinity Sunday in gold, with the correct seasonal propers. However, the flowers were all red, white & blue, and some folk wore rw+b clothes. The preacher openly struggled to connect the two celebrations. The choir mascot carried a small union flag and two verses of the National Anthem followed the blessing. As did wine and cake.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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The man leading the intercessions prayed for a Biblical Jubilee - where debts are cancelled, the poor lifted up, the land cared for and slaves set free.
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leo:
[qb] Luckily, we are a leftie church so there will be no mention of the Queen unless someone sentimental is doing the intercessions.
How awful.
Were I close by, my pistols would be drawn.
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Establishment is a poisonous position. The justification for the Anglicanism is in being a queer part of the catholic church.
Can you explain your second sentence here, please?
Whatever that means.
The mantle of prophesy is falling on me...mark my words..if the CofE was disestablished the whole thing would unravel.
Unlike other Anglican churches, the only thing holding it together is Establishment and Wippells.
Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The man leading the intercessions prayed for a Biblical Jubilee - where debts are cancelled, the poor lifted up, the land cared for and slaves set free.
Ah very high-minded indeed ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on
:
In my Anglican parish in Victoria BC Canada
we sang both Canadian (aka National anthem) and British (aka Royal anthem) and there was a prayer celebrating HM's 60 years on the throne . ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
In my mother's CofI church in Northern Ireland this morning, apparently their rector preached a very good sermon combining the Trinity and the Queen. A last moment flash of inspiration hit him at the end of the service and the congo sang a verse of 'God Save the Queen'.
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
A compromise here.
7 The choir mascot carried a small union flag
I know what is 'a small union flag,' but, if you please, what is a 'choir mascot'? It sounds intriguing but I've not encountered the term before.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
There'll be a Choral Evensong for the Diamond Jubilee at Chicago Cathedral.
And a splendid Evensong it was. Combined choirs of St James Cathedral and Church of the Atonement (the other Anglo-Catholic parish with an excellent choir, pace Oblatus. ). Lots of Howells, plus beautiful settings for the two psalms. It didn't strike me as a "Jubilee" service but rather the monthly choral Evensong that the Cathedral puts on, plus a prayers for the Queen. That, plus, the truly excellent sermon by the Very Rev. Joy Rogers, Dean of the Cathedral, who spoke quite eloquently of the Queen as someone whose life shows a deep sense of vocation.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
There'll be a Choral Evensong for the Diamond Jubilee at Chicago Cathedral.
And a splendid Evensong it was. Combined choirs of St James Cathedral and Church of the Atonement (the other Anglo-Catholic parish with an excellent choir, pace Oblatus. ). Lots of Howells, plus beautiful settings for the two psalms. It didn't strike me as a "Jubilee" service but rather the monthly choral Evensong that the Cathedral puts on, plus a prayers for the Queen. That, plus, the truly excellent sermon by the Very Rev. Joy Rogers, Dean of the Cathedral, who spoke quite eloquently of the Queen as someone whose life shows a deep sense of vocation.
Oblatus was there for some of it. Got delayed and was late, missing everything through the psalms (which I especially hate to miss...they're the core of the service). Did hear the Howells Collegium Regale Mag, Nunc, and then Te Deum for the anthem. Superbly done. So was the sermon. My only quibble would be to ask the dean to wait until the Nunc is over before going to the pulpit and gazing and grinning at the congregation. But it was a wonderful service, and I must apologize for flaking out on telling Mamacita I'd be there or figuring out how to find her.
I was reminded of how I felt when I first visited St. James' Cathedral and heard Dr. Wm. Crosbie and the choir do Bruckner motets on Palm Sunday; Dean Greene and Bishop Montgomery were there as well, back in the early 1980's. As the cathedral hasn't a stone interior but lots of wood (including the floor), music blends and reverberates in a way that I can only describe as "warm" and perhaps "mothering." A mother church, indeed. Feels particularly cozy when the building vibrates in response to the lower organ notes. Makes it feel like a big old wooden house. Particularly thrilling is when there's a chance to hear Leo Sowerby's music in there, its home.
So the patterns on the walls look like Great-Grandmama's living room.
Sorry I didn't make it possible to meet there, Mamacita. I left avoiding the dean because I couldn't think of anything to say. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
So the patterns on the walls look like Great-Grandmama's living room.
That was one of Mother Rogers' better lines, wasn't it? So sorry to have missed you! I had arrived rather early and was seated near the front. (Actually it's a good thing I didn't see anyone I knew. In the ladies' room afterwards, I saw to my horror that my mascara had given me raccoon-eyes. I had completely welled up during the Nunc during the section when the sopranos soar over everything.)
**
I will confess one thing: I was kind of hoping we'd sing "Jerusalem." Of course, it would be ludicrous for an American to sing this, but I have to say, you all look like you're having such fun singing it!
Posted by Laud-able (# 9896) on
:
We had a great morning: a crowd of visitors; God Save the Queen at the beginning, and the prayer for the Queen; a good sermon on the Most Holy, Blessed and Glorious Trinity; Saint Patrick’s Breastplate as the hymn at the Offertory; clouds of smoke; bells; and an exit to Elgar’s Imperial March* (composed for the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria).
All of this was against masses of red roses and carnations, Madonna lilies and white chrysanthemums, and delphiniums in two shades of blue, and followed by a morning tea/coffee at which the centrepiece was a large and rich fruit cake made and beautifully decorated by a generous parishioner.
*Upthread I mistakenly listed Walton's Orb and Sceptre.
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
It is somewhat confusing to celebrate the accession jubilee on the 59th anniversary of the Coronation, but I can only assume that the weather is better in the UK in June than in February.
The selection of the date of the coronation to celebrate the jubilee is driven less by weather and more by the fact that the anniversary of the queen's accession is also the anniversary of her father's death. The accession anniversary is a personal and poignant day, and I recall this being noted in previous jubilee years.
Indeed.
The Russian body of liturgical material has a rather lovely prayer for the occasion of the accession of the Tsar which acknowledges the happening which makes possible such an accession.
My parish celebrated Pentecost yesterday but we inserted this prayer (duly modified) after the Litany of Fervent Supplication. It didn't occur to us to get special cake/wine but after Vespers we did sing the first verse of the National Anthem. I drew breath for "Thy choicest gifts" but found myself alone.
[ 04. June 2012, 09:07: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
A compromise here.
7 The choir mascot carried a small union flag
I know what is 'a small union flag,' but, if you please, what is a 'choir mascot'? It sounds intriguing but I've not encountered the term before.
Pic here should clarify the matter.
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on
:
I am looking forward to the service tomorrow from St. Paul's Cathedral. The cathedral's website was playing coy with me, but I managed to find a link to the Order of Service here.
The assembled worshippers are instructed to remain seated until Her Majesty arrives. I suppose this means that people will not be standing for the majority of the rest of the royal family.
Sixty years ago, would people have remained seated for the minor royals, or would they have stood for all royals?
The liturgy seems quite similar to what was done in the past at St. Paul's for the Queen (her fiftieth?) I am looking forward to the hymn O Praise Ye the Lord, a departure from the normal rota of hymns seemingly used at every single service involving royals. Likewise I am looking forward to the Te Deum at the entrance.
I hope that the service is archived somewhere as the usual television coverage typically ruins all of the wonderful pre- and post-service music.
Posted by Fr Raphael (# 17131) on
:
A very minor point', from the Jubilee Service - in The last picture on this Bbc slideshow
Is the priest wearing banns, and is that the usual way of wearing them?
[ 05. June 2012, 11:31: Message edited by: Fr Raphael ]
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
:
The Dean is wearing bands. They appear to be blowing in the wind. I don't normally wear bands with a stole myself (cassock, surplice, tippet, hood and bands is collegiate choir dress) but St Paul's will have its own good customs.
Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on
:
They wear bands with cope and stole at The Abbey too.
I don't know if this is generally a 'cathedral' thing. I can't recall what they do here in Mancunia.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
I loved the Diamond Choir anthem. And what a lovely idea to have child representatives from all over the country in the choir as well as the usual St. Paul's choir and the Chapel Royal.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
:
I loved the sermon.
The Te Deum was very fine.
Always amusing to see who seems to be singing the hymns. Boris didn't seem to. Ed Milliband, of all people, did.
[ 05. June 2012, 13:26: Message edited by: Amos ]
Posted by ChippedChalice (# 14057) on
:
anybody know if there's a link to the service to watch online?
Posted by Fr Raphael (# 17131) on
:
What puzzled me is that the bands seem to be being worn over the clerical collar rather than tucked under, or is that a trick of the photo?
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I loved the sermon.
The Te Deum was very fine.
Always amusing to see who seems to be singing the hymns. Boris didn't seem to. Ed Milliband, of all people, did.
I have a feeling Boris is the kind of guy who thinks he'll get to heaven because he's got a British Passport. Why should he sing, anyway? Isn't that what one pays the servants - sorry, singers for?
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
There'll be a Choral Evensong for the Diamond Jubilee at Chicago Cathedral.
And a splendid Evensong it was. Combined choirs of St James Cathedral and Church of the Atonement (the other Anglo-Catholic parish with an excellent choir, pace Oblatus. ). Lots of Howells, plus beautiful settings for the two psalms. It didn't strike me as a "Jubilee" service but rather the monthly choral Evensong that the Cathedral puts on, plus a prayers for the Queen. That, plus, the truly excellent sermon by the Very Rev. Joy Rogers, Dean of the Cathedral, who spoke quite eloquently of the Queen as someone whose life shows a deep sense of vocation.
The Dean's sermon has just been posted here.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
I caught a few glimpses of the service whilst coming and going at w**k.
Someone should tell Ed Milliband not to stand with his hand in his pocket whilst a-singing of hymns..........
And why did the Canon Sacrist and My Lord of London both use the nave altar as a bookstand, when there were perfectly good lecterns to be had? Most unseemly and unedifying. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I heard a bit of Will Todd's The Call of Wisdom - sounded good, and was sung beautifully.
Ian J.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
Oblatus, thank you so much for that link! I noticed that her aside to the Bishop -- "no spurs and sword for us??" -- must have been an ad-lib.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
I was told I must listen again (for the first time in my case) to the Archbishop's sermon.
Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on
:
Tonight there was a magnificent Mass in Westminster Cathedral offered in thanksgiving for the Diamond Jubilee of HM's reign. It was the first time (I think) I have attended an orchestral Mass in Westminster Cathedral, and it was absolutely splendid! Mozart's Coronation Mass was the setting. The offertory motet was the sublime Laudate Dominum, also by Mozart. The Archbishop presided, with Cardinal Murphy- O'Connor, the Archbishop of Cardiff, the Bishop of the Forces and several other bishops concelebrating, along with dozens of priests. The Cathedral was packed with people.
The great Cathedral organ did a magnificent impersonation of the trumpet fanfare that introduces the National Anthem, two verses of which were sung at the end of Mass. Then the procession out to Walton's Orb and Sceptre. Quite a fantastic event and a wonderful way to end the Jubilee weekend.
Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Always amusing to see who seems to be singing the hymns. Boris didn't seem to. Ed Milliband, of all people, did.
Most impressive was PM and Deputy PM singing The Old 100th without looking at the service book - but then they went to the right sort of schools.
Damn fine sermon, damn fine music, damn fine service. Couldn't be bettered.
Posted by Incumbent (# 17127) on
:
I would think that standing at the nave altar looked better than standing beside it and ignoring it-it just made for better optics. I liked the reference to the Kinks in +Rowan's sermon-it made him more human, less remote, and put his life in some context. It was clearly Christian (especially the singing of the Te Deum), but it was also sensitive to non-Christian religions, which is important in the context of the Commonwealth. It was good to see the wonderful cope the Archbishop wore at the Royal Wedding again. One quibble, there seemed not to be agreement, by looking at stoles worn, whether the colour was white or red. The use of stoles at all might be questioned at a non-Sacramental liturgy.
Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on
:
With the exception of +Londin in the Silver Jubilee Cope, the colour(s) seemed to be red and gold in a couple of combinations.
Cope and stole is just how we dress up for jolly occasions in the CofE.
Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Tonight there was a magnificent Mass in Westminster Cathedral offered in thanksgiving for the Diamond Jubilee of HM's reign. . . . The Cathedral was packed with people.
. . . Quite a fantastic event and a wonderful way to end the Jubilee weekend.
Were there any Royals present?
[ 07. June 2012, 10:55: Message edited by: Sacred London ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
Yesterday's first reading from the lectionary (1 Samuel 8:4-25) was apt: quote:
the thing displeased Samuel when they said, ‘Give us a king to govern us.’ ..... the Lord said to Samuel, ‘Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them .... These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen...and you shall be his slaves. And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves; but the Lord will not answer you in that day.’
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
I guess you didn't believe that Mamacita was serious.
Well, at least you managed to use the quote function this time. Enjoy your two weeks off.
-RooK
Admin
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
All things considered, it seems to have been a splendid celebration in both the civic and liturgical realms. Since the party's over, it's time to close the thread.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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