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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is the Traditional, Biblical view of the afterlife messed up?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
The background to this question comes from another thread:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'd say the absence of a Cosmic Judge who will send you to eternal damnation for not doing (or even believing) the right things is a definite plus point.
An alternative solution to that (i.e. other than atheism) is just having a less fucked up view of God.
Less fucked up than the traditional, biblical view?
As you appear to have understood it? Heck yes.
If there is a populated Hell then I'm pretty sure I've described it fairly, if perhaps hyperbolically. On the other hand, if my understanding of the traditional, Biblical view of the afterlife is fucked up, then that must mean there is no Hell. And not only no Hell, but no eternal torment at all, of any kind - there's no weaselling out of this one with guff like "the unrepentant feel the love of God as a burning flame" or "the door to Hell is locked on the inside". Whichever way it's put, it still boils down to "if you're the wrong sort of person, God's Will is that you burn for eternity".
There are only two options that don't boil down to that statement, and they're universalism and oblivion (be it for all or just for the Damned). I'm not aware that either of those options has ever been considered Biblical or Traditional by any even vaguely mainstream denomination, though.
So what's fucked up about my understanding of the traditional, Biblical view of what happens to those who are, through their own fault or not, the wrong sort of people for Heaven? What have I missed, here?
This could be a really short thread, or it could go for weeks. I'd like to think I don't have to bust out specific Bible verses, as they should be more than well known enough on this board, but I will if needed.
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(NOTE: thread title "sanitised" because it'll appear on the main site front page. This disclaimer posted at the bottom of the OP for the same reason.)
[ 28. January 2013, 23:45: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
...there's no weaselling out of this one with guff like "the unrepentant feel the love of God as a burning flame" or "the door to Hell is locked on the inside".
Why are these views "guff"?
Don't you believe in free will?
[ 02. October 2012, 15:59: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ISTM, it is more why would a loving, benevolent god create the parameters in which its creations would end up being tormented for eternity? Free will does not answer this question, sorry.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I guess, Marvin, that I have a bit of trouble out of the gate with the conflation of "traditional" and "biblical." There is much about "traditional" views of an afterlife that is not at all "biblical," but that nevertheless rules in popular imagination, popular culture, and, as a result, in too many churches.
The Old Testament, of course, has little to say about an afterlife. Yes, the New Testament has the hellfire and brimstone passages, but even they are not the entirety of what it has to say either, and different conclusions can be (and have been) drawn within historic, mainstream Christianity as to just how the whole salvation-damnation puzzle pieces fit together. The view you seem to posit as the "traditional, biblical" view is one that I have only come across in the most conservative and fundamentalist (Protestant and Catholic) of churches/viewpoints. And I could be wrong, but I suspect that the entire framework through which you're posing this question to begin with would strike an Orthodox Christian as faulty from the outset.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Why are these views "guff"?
Because they don't change the basic fact of eternal damnation, they just seek to make it look like the sinner's fault rather than God's.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I guess, Marvin, that I have a bit of trouble out of the gate with the conflation of "traditional" and "biblical." There is much about "traditional" views of an afterlife that is not at all "biblical," but that nevertheless rules in popular imagination, popular culture, and, as a result, in too many churches.
I very nearly titled this thread "Does Hell Exist?", as that would almost be the same question as the one I ended up asking.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Why are these views "guff"?
Because they don't change the basic fact of eternal damnation, they just seek to make it look like the sinner's fault rather than God's.
Why do you think it's God's fault?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm not aware that either of those options has ever been considered Biblical or Traditional by any even vaguely mainstream denomination, though.
No, but it might (or might not) be worth pointing out that Gregory of Nyssa made rather universalist noises without censure, and is considered not just a saint but one of the hugely important Cappadocean Fathers. This gives me as a closet universalist hope that I am not a wretched heretic.
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Marv, the reason I think your view is fucked up is that you only ever talk about the judgement and condemnation stuff, but never about the endless love of God. I do think that the doctrine of eternal punishment is one of the most messed up Christian doctrines. It might be traditional but IMO it ain't biblical. But either way, as quick as you are to mention the biblical basis for it, you seem to ignore the plethora of verses that paint a very different picture of God as a loving parent. You seem to have a massive problem believing those verses, but not the 'judgement' verses. Why is that?
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Marv, the reason I think your view is fucked up is that you only ever talk about the judgement and condemnation stuff, but never about the endless love of God. I do think that the doctrine of eternal punishment is one of the most messed up Christian doctrines. It might be traditional but IMO it ain't biblical. But either way, as quick as you are to mention the biblical basis for it, you seem to ignore the plethora of verses that paint a very different picture of God as a loving parent. You seem to have a massive problem believing those verses, but not the 'judgement' verses. Why is that?
Because it's what mainstream evangelical churches preach.
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If only.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That's not entirely fair, Mr. Clingford. I was at a time a fairly "mainstream" evangelical (I got better), and I heard a good deal about God's love. Indeed far more than about Hell or God's wrath -- but then this was before the whole "love the faggot hate the abomination" thing really got going.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
...there's no weaselling out of this one with guff like "the unrepentant feel the love of God as a burning flame" or "the door to Hell is locked on the inside".
Why are these views "guff"?
Don't you believe in free will?
I do see why these views might be considered "guff" but I think it is due to a messed up view of God and the afterlife.
Why not view the afterlife as like this life except fair? The innocent don't suffer. Any suffering the guilty experience is the direct result of their own activities.
From those few premises you can construct a perfectly reasonable afterlife. Hell is not a flaming cauldron into which people are cast. Hell is merely the fact that things don't work out well for you if you fail learn how to play well with others. It is not the absence of all joy, only the recognition that our attitudes and behaviors can severely impact our inner peace.
If this sounds like a weak-tea sort of hell I advise you to look around at the way people suffer from these afflictions even in this life.
The Biblical view is characterized by metaphor and hyperbole. It successfully communicates that hell is bad. But grown-ups should understand that it isnot meant literally.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If there is a populated Hell then I'm pretty sure I've described it fairly, if perhaps hyperbolically. On the other hand, if my understanding of the traditional, Biblical view of the afterlife is fucked up, then that must mean there is no Hell. And not only no Hell, but no eternal torment at all, of any kind - there's no weaselling out of this one with guff like "the unrepentant feel the love of God as a burning flame" or "the door to Hell is locked on the inside". Whichever way it's put, it still boils down to "if you're the wrong sort of person, God's Will is that you burn for eternity".
There are only two options that don't boil down to that statement, and they're universalism and oblivion (be it for all or just for the Damned). I'm not aware that either of those options has ever been considered Biblical or Traditional by any even vaguely mainstream denomination, though.
So what's fucked up about my understanding of the traditional, Biblical view of what happens to those who are, through their own fault or not, the wrong sort of people for Heaven? What have I missed, here?
OK, the thing is, when I was taught religious studies I was taught the definition of eternity a little differently from most people it seems. I was taught that 'eternity' didn't mean 'lasts forever' but meant 'existing outside of time.' Such that when people talked about 'eternal damnation' they weren't talking about a punishment that went on forever as a result of doing, saying, or believing the wrong things, but rather something that didn't fit with our ordinary notions of time and space. That makes it really easy to fit "weak universalism" (such that it is not necessarily the case that everyone is saved, but it is possible) into most mainstream denominations and religions, it's just that a lot of people confuse mathematical principles and religious principles.
Could be that my teacher was wrong, though, especially seeing as how I've wound up concluding that this world is in fact another world's hell.
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I thought the popular image of "traditional Biblical view of Hell" is, was sourced far more from Dante than from the Bible. No?
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
...there's no weaselling out of this one with guff like "the unrepentant feel the love of God as a burning flame" or "the door to Hell is locked on the inside".
Why are these views "guff"?
Don't you believe in free will?
The more I see the free will card played in answer to geniune theological puzzles the more I see it for what it really is: lazy, disingenuous, para-biblical pseudo-apologetics.
[ 02. October 2012, 17:51: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There are only two options that don't boil down to that statement, and they're universalism and oblivion (be it for all or just for the Damned). I'm not aware that either of those options has ever been considered Biblical or Traditional by any even vaguely mainstream denomination, though.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No, but it might (or might not) be worth pointing out that Gregory of Nyssa made rather universalist noises without censure, and is considered not just a saint but one of the hugely important Cappadocean Fathers. This gives me as a closet universalist hope that I am not a wretched heretic.
And as I thought about it, it did seem to me that that warhorse of a verse -- John 3:16 -- comes pretty close to endorsing the second view (oblivion): " . . . that all who believe in him shall not perish [the Greek means "destroyed" or "put completely to an end"] but have eternal life." The alternatives here are not salvation/heaven vs. damnation/hell but life/existence vs. death/non-existence.
That verse is, of course, followed by the verse that says Christ didn't come to condemn or judge the world but to offer life to the world.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I thought the popular image of "traditional Biblical view of Hell" is, was sourced far more from Dante than from the Bible. No?
That's what I was taught, too. That and more recently the Left Behind books. I mean, the Rapture? Seriously?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's not entirely fair, Mr. Clingford. I was at a time a fairly "mainstream" evangelical (I got better), and I heard a good deal about God's love. Indeed far more than about Hell or God's wrath -- but then this was before the whole "love the faggot hate the abomination" thing really got going.
I've been in mainstream evangelical churches my entire life. But I am feeling that my theology is getting further and further from the 'norm' in that culture. But part of that is realising that orthodoxy is a wide river (as Rob Bell puts it), not a narrow stream.
Marvin, how do you reconcile eternal punishment as initiated by God with, for example, the parable of the lost Son. Eternal punishment (and annihilation) says that, in the end, God gives up. That flies in the face of the father of the prodigal.
Saysay, the word translated as 'eternal' is aionios i.e. 'age'. I found it incredibly interesting looking into its meaning and how it was used.
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's not entirely fair, Mr. Clingford. I was at a time a fairly "mainstream" evangelical (I got better), and I heard a good deal about God's love. Indeed far more than about Hell or God's wrath -- but then this was before the whole "love the faggot hate the abomination" thing really got going.
Yes, it is true that the main message is love, but that is tied in with saying the right words of repentance - the understanding is that the majority of people, atheists, agnostics and those of other faiths, will not be saved and will be therefore eternally damned or oblivion, if they're lucky.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The more I see the free will card played in answer to geniune theological puzzles the more I see it for what it really is: lazy, disingenuous, para-biblical pseudo-apologetics.
And I see Calvinist predestination as evil and demonic. So what?
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
There's an alternative to believing in eternal torment without believing in universalism. In fact there's more than one alternative. John Stott, famous conservative evangelical theologian caused a stir in the 1980s when he said he believed in annhililationism.
Me, I go for the 4th option, conditional immortality, the soul is not immortal until God gives it eternal life.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
Those are the alternatives death - not eternal death, just death - or eternal life given to those who believe in Jesus Christ.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]And I see Calvinist predestination as evil and demonic. So what?
I cross posted with this.
Stott, see above, was (mostly) Calvinist and didn't believe in eternal suffering.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Me, I go for the 4th option, conditional immortality, the soul is not immortal until God gives it eternal life.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
Those are the alternatives death - not eternal death, just death - or eternal life given to those who believe in Jesus Christ.
That's just annihilation by another name.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The Old Testament, of course, has little to say about an afterlife
Well, there is this cheery bit of Psalm 88 [American 1979 BCP]: quote:
Do you work wonders for the dead?
will those who have died stand up and give you thanks?
Will your loving-kindness be declared in the grave?
your faithfulness in the land of destruction?
Will your wonders be known in the dark?
or your righteousness in the country where all is forgotten?
Let's note immediately that these six are rhetorical questions and the answer to them is a uniform, "No, of course not; don't be silly. I'm of no use to you, God, when I'm dead. So vindicate me now, before I wind up in Sheol."
This view of Sheol as being grey and silent, whose occupants aren't quite living nor dead, where nothing really happens, pre-dates when the emerging Jewish idea of resurrection started to get traction.
Let's not leave this prospect out of "the biblical view of the afterlife," a view that is hardly univocal.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The more I see the free will card played in answer to geniune theological puzzles the more I see it for what it really is: lazy, disingenuous, para-biblical pseudo-apologetics.
Not so. That's only true if you see God as a directive and punitive despot. In that case free will is only an excuse for Him allowing you to fall into His trap.
But if the reality is that people are genuinely free to do as they wish, and that the simple fact is that some ways of being are more enjoyable than others, then free will is an essential theological concept.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
There's an alternative to believing in eternal torment without believing in universalism. In fact there's more than one alternative.
Yes, there are numerous alternatives. One is to acknowledge the subjective nature of happiness.
For example, I think that the people getting drunk at the bar night after night are living in torment. Amazingly, they don't agree.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Very good points, TSA. I probably would have done better to say that what the OT has to say about life after death isn't as developed as what is seen in the NT.
[ 02. October 2012, 19:12: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, it is more why would a loving, benevolent god create the parameters in which its creations would end up being tormented for eternity? Free will does not answer this question, sorry.
This has been my problem from a very young age. God is omniscient. When He creates a soul, He would know if it was a creature to be saved or to be damned. So if He creates an entity knowing that its ultimate fate is eternal damnation, then He is effectively creating someone for the purposes of condemning to eternal damnation. Can anyone explain where is the love in that?
The bible is equivocal on te subject. It's possible to prove eternal damnation, anihilism or universal salvation depending on one's chosen quote. While the mainstream of Christianity has always taught eternal damnation for certain people, throughout Christian history there have been a few voices who speak up for universal salvation. I recently read, "Jesus Christ, Salvation of All" by Archbishop Luis Ladaria, who is currently Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He deals with the issue of free will in this way. He writes:
"...if human freedom is not considered, and with it the possibility of rejecting the divine offer, then salvation becomes something forced... But it should be maintained that God is not indifferent before the dual possibility of our salvation or damnation...our possible rejection of his invitation means that his plan of salvation is not completely realised...There is only one predestination-that of salvation in Christ."
We need to ask ourselves, does God desire the salvation of all? Most Christians would answer yes. Are all things possible for God, with regards to who can be saved? According to Matt 19.26, yes. These things give me enough reason to hope and pray for the salvation of all.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
There's an alternative to believing in eternal torment without believing in universalism. In fact there's more than one alternative. John Stott, famous conservative evangelical theologian caused a stir in the 1980s when he said he believed in annhililationism.
Me, I go for the 4th option, conditional immortality, the soul is not immortal until God gives it eternal life.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
Those are the alternatives death - not eternal death, just death - or eternal life given to those who believe in Jesus Christ.
That is what I believe in right now. Stott is not alone. I learned of it from Edward Fudge.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
For example, I think that the people getting drunk at the bar night after night are living in torment. Amazingly, they don't agree.
I'm not so sure, Freddy. The noted theologian and philosopher George Jones wrote of his still doing time in a honky tonk prison. He doesn't seem happy at all about it.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I recently read, "Jesus Christ, Salvation of All" by Archbishop Luis Ladaria, who is currently Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He deals with the issue of free will in this way. He writes:
"...if human freedom is not considered, and with it the possibility of rejecting the divine offer, then salvation becomes something forced... But it should be maintained that God is not indifferent before the dual possibility of our salvation or damnation...our possible rejection of his invitation means that his plan of salvation is not completely realised...There is only one predestination-that of salvation in Christ."
Sounds somewhat Barthian of the archbishop. Not that I see anything wrong with that.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The more I see the free will card played in answer to geniune theological puzzles the more I see it for what it really is: lazy, disingenuous, para-biblical pseudo-apologetics.
Not so. That's only true if you see God as a directive and punitive despot. In that case free will is only an excuse for Him allowing you to fall into His trap.
But if the reality is that people are genuinely free to do as they wish, and that the simple fact is that some ways of being are more enjoyable than others, then free will is an essential theological concept.
I agree that freewill, for many people, is an essential theological concept. Their theologies don't work without it. I don't agree, however, that theologies that express reservations about freewill necessarily require that God be a despot. I certainly don't think he's that.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Why are these views "guff"?
Because they don't change the basic fact of eternal damnation, they just seek to make it look like the sinner's fault rather than God's.
Why do you think it's God's fault?
Because He created the world, set all its parameters, and decided what will and will not pass muster in terms of Salvation.
The one who makes the rules has to be held responsible for their effects.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Marv, the reason I think your view is fucked up is that you only ever talk about the judgement and condemnation stuff, but never about the endless love of God.
It's because those are the most important parts of the faith. God can love me more than any human is capable of, but if He's still going to comndemn me should I fail to meet expectations that love is irrelevant.
quote:
But either way, as quick as you are to mention the biblical basis for it, you seem to ignore the plethora of verses that paint a very different picture of God as a loving parent. You seem to have a massive problem believing those verses, but not the 'judgement' verses. Why is that?
I don't disbelieve them. I'm just well aware that that love won't hold back the hand should God feel I need to be punished.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Hell is merely the fact that things don't work out well for you if you fail learn how to play well with others.
And who decided that "playing well with others" should be what determines whether you experience heaven or hell in the next life?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Marvin, how do you reconcile eternal punishment as initiated by God with, for example, the parable of the lost Son. Eternal punishment (and annihilation) says that, in the end, God gives up. That flies in the face of the father of the prodigal.
The son in that parable has to come crawling back to the father after a spirit-breaking time sleeping in the pigsty. Couldn't the father have kept tabs on him and stepped in to bring him home the minute things went sour? Wasn't all that suffering avoidable?
"Well", say the apologists, "the son had to become a person who could go back to his father in humility and seek help". But that's just another way of saying that the wrong sort of people - the proud, in this case - aren't welcome in heaven. Which is just another way of saying "change or burn". Or possibly "change willingly, or burn until you're forced to do so".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Hell is merely the fact that things don't work out well for you if you fail learn how to play well with others.
And who decided that "playing well with others" should be what determines whether you experience heaven or hell in the next life?
Because that's what heaven is? Being around people who are really really different from you and getting along? Like a wedding banquet where everyone's invited but only certain people show up. Or that other non-Biblical story about the people with really long silverware attached to their hands.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
But that's just another way of saying that the wrong sort of people - the proud, in this case - aren't welcome in heaven.
If the proud were welcome in heaven, then heaven would not be heaven, but hell.
Pride (i.e. arrogance, conceit) spreads misery wherever it goes. The person who always wants to be better than (and look down on) everyone else is hardly going to contribute to peace and harmony is he / she?
C S Lewis was right when he wrote that "pride is the complete anti-God state of mind".
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Hell is merely the fact that things don't work out well for you if you fail learn how to play well with others.
And who decided that "playing well with others" should be what determines whether you experience heaven or hell in the next life?
Because that's what heaven is?
Taking Marvin's point, I agree that yes, God decided that "playing well with others" would be a good basis for a happy existence. Does that make it arbitrary?
I have faith that out of the billions of possible systems God has created a good one.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
The one who makes the rules has to be held responsible for their effects.
That is complete nonsense. No reasonable person believes such an idea.
If I choose to break the rules that govern my job (for example), should my employer necessarily be held responsible for the consequences?
Of course not!
[ 02. October 2012, 22:36: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Nick Tamen, I should have said, of course, that in no way was I meaning to throw rocks in your direction.
My agitation is more with folk on this thread liabling the Scriptures (and their Author) by alleging that they say this or that one single thing about the afterlife. And, with the Perverted Western Preoccupation with the Four Last Things: Death, Judgement, Heaven, and Hell.
Better be preoccupied with the divinization, the theosis, the deification of humankind.
quote:
...grant that we may share the divine life of him who humbled himself to share our humanity...
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If the Word has been made man, it is so that men may be made gods.
It makes me want to belt out, BLESSED ASSURANCE, JESUS IS MINE! The task at hand is not so much to fret, but to strive to become by grace what God is by nature.
If you don't like the proof-texting from the liturgy and the Fathers, go to 2 Pet. 1:4.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
For example, I think that the people getting drunk at the bar night after night are living in torment. Amazingly, they don't agree.
I'm not so sure, Freddy. The noted theologian and philosopher George Jones wrote of his still doing time in a honky tonk prison. He doesn't seem happy at all about it.
The first step to enlightenment - recognizing your situation for what it is. Others are not so aware.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
The one who makes the rules has to be held responsible for their effects.
That is complete nonsense. No reasonable person believes such an idea.
I don't think that's true; I think any number of reasonable people believe that.
quote:
If I choose to break the rules that govern my job (for example), should my employer necessarily be held responsible for the consequences?
Of course not!
Depends on the job. In some jobs, your commanding officer would be held responsible. And parents are frequently held responsible in some way shape or form when their children misbehave.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
The rejection of eternal punishment generally relies on the false idea that eternity represents an infinite amount of time. But eternity is not an infinite amount of time, and so eternal punishment is not simply some kind of infinite multiplication of temporal punishment.
Eternity is a different state of being. To say that someone is eternally punished, or eternally rewarded, is more akin to saying that someone is in a particular instance of time punished or rewarded. Because eternity is more analogous to an instant of time than to a huge expanse of time. It just is the case that this instance lasts forever. Not because it stretched out infinitely in time, but because it is lived without limit. Just as we may find in an instant of great joy or horror that time seems to disappear as our life becomes too large to be contained by the tics of a clock.
Now, God has elected every human being to participate in His eternal life after a finite temporal life. I do not think that a moral case can be constructed out of that in any way or form. I suggest that we should respond with gratitude, but really, it is a Jobian moment: this is what God has chosen to do, and it is as such beyond human reckoning of good, bad or ugly. It just is the case.
However, given this case, we can ask whether it is just for God to punish or reward in the eternal life according to the temporal life. And I contend that there cannot be any doubt about that. Much is made of the eternal (not, as we have seen, infinitely long) punishment of the wicked, but really, would it be just if the wicked were treated the same as the righteous? No, surely not. There's nothing immoral about punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous, rather, that is pretty much the definition of justice. So why should the One who defines justice, God, not follow through?
In the end I believe our problems with eternal punishment are just a sign that we have no real clue what God is offering to us. We project all this back down onto the life we know, and think of eternal holidays on the beach vs. eternal torture in some prison cell. But in truth, we will have died to both.
I have no real idea what it will be like when our sequential minds get smashed at the speed of death into the Great Unchanging. But I can just see, just barely see, how the second hand of the clock grinds to a halt for us with the last "Ahhhh..." escaping from our lungs. And how we then complete with a "...men". Or not. And so it shall be, for it is. Eternally now.
As for annihilation of the wicked, well, people assume that God can annihilate. But, can he? Can the Creator destroy? Can the Maker unmake? Can Being un-be? Perhaps again we are asking the wrong question, by confusing God's Life with our lives. Perhaps the real question is not why the wicked are not unmade by the Maker, but why they were ever made.
That sinning leads to darkness I see and accept, but why, Oh Lord, can I sin? This I see only darkly...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Perhaps eternal life is a quality of existence so different to what we can ever faintly imagine with our minds that it is, basically, indescribable? Perhaps some fortunate people are able to have a faint glimpse or experience of that reality. Perhaps it's a faint inkling of that which causes us to carry on in hopeful expectation.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Because that's what heaven is? Being around people who are really really different from you and getting along?
Unless you're claiming that that's the only possible form Heaven can ever take in any reality*, all you're doing is begging the question.
*= As opposed to, say, separate areas where people who get on with each other can be kept safely away from those they don't get on with.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
The one who makes the rules has to be held responsible for their effects.
That is complete nonsense. No reasonable person believes such an idea.
No reasonable person believes it? It's the entire basis on which we elect our governments ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The task at hand is not so much to fret, but to strive to become by grace what God is by nature.
What if I don't want to? What if I'm happy with how I am right now, and don't want to change into something completely different?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Now, God has elected every human being to participate in His eternal life after a finite temporal life. I do not think that a moral case can be constructed out of that in any way or form. I suggest that we should respond with gratitude, but really, it is a Jobian moment: this is what God has chosen to do, and it is as such beyond human reckoning of good, bad or ugly. It just is the case.
It's monstrous. God gives us no choice, no means of escape, and we just have to shrug and accept it. Which is exactly what I was railing against on the other thread, only to be told it was a "fucked up" view of God...
quote:
However, given this case, we can ask whether it is just for God to punish or reward in the eternal life according to the temporal life. And I contend that there cannot be any doubt about that.
Why not? Why can't He, for instance, just put everyone into their own personal Heaven filled with the things they love and completely free of the things they hate?
quote:
So why should the One who defines justice, God, not follow through?
I'm still stuck on "why should he be the one who defines justice?"
And yes, I know it's pointless to even ask that question given that He's God, He can obliterate the entire universe with the merest thought, and that means He's the one who gets to call every shot. But I don't have to like it.
quote:
I have no real idea what it will be like when our sequential minds get smashed at the speed of death into the Great Unchanging. But I can just see, just barely see, how the second hand of the clock grinds to a halt for us with the last "Ahhhh..." escaping from our lungs. And how we then complete with a "...men". Or not. And so it shall be, for it is. Eternally now.
Congratulations, that's one of the most terrifying things I've ever read on these boards.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The rejection of eternal punishment generally relies on the false idea that eternity represents an infinite amount of time. But eternity is not an infinite amount of time, and so eternal punishment is not simply some kind of infinite multiplication of temporal punishment.
I reject it because it is at total odds with the God Jesus revealed as our Father.
I cannot envisage any way in which I could treat my daughter in the way that Eternal Punishment (and PSA for that matter) tells us God behaves. It is monstrous.
If my little girl chose to go off the rails, to screw her life up, even to reject my love...
I would let her.
It would break my heart. I would be waiting every day for her. I'd never just say 'fuck it. I give up'.
And that's a shadow of the way God is when it comes to us.
Eternal punishment is a doctrine that gradually evolved out of a shoddy translation of aionios by Augustine, who admitted that he wasn't even very good at Greek.
God does not punish, but he does discipline. A loving parent disciplines. An abusive parent punishes for the punishment's own sake.
Marv, the God you believe in is a vindictive asshole. I think you're totally right to be pissed off at God, and the way things are, given what you believe. I'm surprised more Christians (especially within evangelism) aren't saying the same.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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