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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: CofE alternative provision ...
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
... for those of us who wanted the vote for women bishops to go through and were already fairly disenchanted by the same sex marriage (SSM) statements what are our options now?
I can get as far as the RC isn't an option on either SSM or women priests, but was wondering what other options anyone could suggest.
[ 28. January 2013, 23:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
I think there are two principal options.
1) Emigration. New Zealand, perhaps.
2) Prayer.
Or, if you aren't bothered about the apostolic succession, the Methodists or the URC might well be comfortable homes for you.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
The Methodists would be fairly close in some ways
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
When parishes and whole dioceses in the Episcopal Church in the US got pissed off about gay bishops, they left and affiliated themselves with churches in Africa, and no one in power in England or at the international level seemed to have any problem with it. So I suggest that you write to Canterbury and say you are going to affiliate yourself with one of the provinces of the Anglican Communion that already has female bishops. Parishes here lost their buildings when they did that, but look at it this way -- you'll no longer have to pay for those buildings that are too old and too big for you anyway.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I heard of a Methodist minister who threatened to put up a banner outside her church 'Women welcomed at all levels in this church'. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Stay where you are and honour the promises that were made by revisiting the legislation that enabled those promises to be kept instead of the faulty legislation that was rightly voted down.
The pro- lobby took no heed of the suggestions from the two archbishops (so much for an episcopally-led church - if they ignore archbishops, what's the point of having bishops, male or female?) and seemed hell-bent on forcing 'traditionalists' out of the church in the name of 'inclusive church'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
May I suggest: take a long view. So far the duration of this wrangle is small beer in the light of some of the Church's great historic arguments.
If you/I decide this is not actually an issue we would be willing to die in a ditch for, defending the 'way of Christ', then we're free to get on with loving our neighbour, forgiving those who trespass against us, seeking holiness, and hopefully being a source of joy and hope to others.
If institutional 'Christianity' in the form of the C of E (or any other denomination) lumbers on in the midst of division, fear, and loathing so be it. We're a motley crew (rather like the Ship actually).
Perhaps, in very many cases, it is the quality and manner of our disagreeing that matters more than who is right or wrong.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Stay where you are and honour the promises that were made by revisiting the legislation that enabled those promises to be kept instead of the faulty legislation that was rightly voted down.
The pro- lobby took no heed of the suggestions from the two archbishops (so much for an episcopally-led church - if they ignore archbishops, what's the point of having bishops, male or female?) and seemed hell-bent on forcing 'traditionalists' out of the church in the name of 'inclusive church'.
That's a remarkably expedient reading of a measure that was simply trying to preserve the integrity of the episcopacy. It is not damaged by gender; prejudice seems to be having a very good go.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Take a page out of the conservative playbook and form your own province affiliated with TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada. If you are lucky, Scotland and New Zealand might also recognize you. Canterbury won't let you take any of your money or property with you. The Dead Horses were important to conservatives in North America. Are they as important to liberals in England?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The problem with taking the long view, saying it's just a matter of time, is that the longer it takes for the CofE to pull its head out of its ass, the more people will reject the church as irrelevant.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
people will reject the church as irrelevant.
Lost cause. Let it go.
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Stop contributing to the costs of your parish/diocese (the bishops and the CofE generally haven't objected when evnagelical parishes do this) and redirect the money to appropriate charities.
John
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Has any ecclesial community in the entire world ever become more relevant for taking liberal positions on the Dead Horses? I can't think of a single one. At best, the liberals who don't attend church will think slightly more of you than they do conservatives. You'll be the place they would go if they ever decided to attend church which most of them will never do.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Has any ecclesial community in the entire world ever become more relevant for taking liberal positions on the Dead Horses? I can't think of a single one.
I can -- we got a big and lasting bump up in my parish when Gene Robinson was consecrated. In addition to the gay and lesbian people who showed up and stayed, we got a bunch of mostly young straight people, some of whom said they wanted a church that wouldn't teach their children that gays were bad, and some of whom said, "If you'll take the gays, you'll take anyone -- including me." That last one was the surprise; people who had thought the church would judge them negatively gave us a chance to show them otherwise because of Gene Robinson.
[ 20. November 2012, 19:26: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Beeswax Altar, I am a liberal and was a very active member of my local church since I moved to this area. That would be most of the last 15 years here, but I was equally active in the previous church I attended as an adult. I am no longer. This vote has pretty much ensured I will not return now. So yes, this vote is affecting liberals and the number of people attending churches. This and SSM are two of a number of reasons for making the decision that attendance is no longer for me.
This thread was asking if there was anywhere to go instead, or I was going to become part of the 90% unchurched in the UK.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The ecclesial community is TEC. TEC, as a whole, has lost members since 2004. Many of them left because of Gene Robinson's election.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
If enough ordinary congregation members started to go elsewhere, perhaps the message would get through.
Cell churches in people's houses are quite popular once they get going, as long as they're run by someone sensible and theologically trained.
What you do will depend upon what you want from your organised church. Integrity? Equality? Love of others as yourself, male or female? Facilitation of calling, male or female? Candles, gowns, windows?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The pro- lobby took no heed of the suggestions from the two archbishops (so much for an episcopally-led church - if they ignore archbishops, what's the point of having bishops, male or female?) and seemed hell-bent on forcing 'traditionalists' out of the church in the name of 'inclusive church'.
It is the "traditionalists" who have gone firmly against the authority of the bishops (who voted 44 to 3, with 2 abstentions, in favor of the measure).
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The ecclesial community is TEC.
Sez you.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The ecclesial community is TEC.
Sez you.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If enough ordinary congregation members started to go elsewhere, perhaps the message would get through.
Cell churches in people's houses are quite popular once they get going, as long as they're run by someone sensible and theologically trained.
What you do will depend upon what you want from your organised church. Integrity? Equality? Love of others as yourself, male or female? Facilitation of calling, male or female? Candles, gowns, windows?
I'm guessing the problem arises because many members of the CofE actually think that the eucharist, celebrated by a community led by an episcopally ordained priest is a matter of importance, not just a bit of window dressing that's nice to have if you can get it.
ANd the pity is, even if alternative episcopal oversight were available to supporters of the ordination of women, which it is not, that won't help those who support the principle of the ordination of women as bishops.
Those of us in the Anglican church who benefit from the ministry of female bishops -- and I see one has just been consecrated in southern Africa -- can only look on with despair at what the House of Laity of the CofE has done. And, short of sending missionary bishops to England to start a branch of the ACC -- which is not going to happen -- I can think of nothing that will help individuals who have been alienated from the CofE but also want access to the sacramental ministry they want and are, IMO, entitled to.
John
[ 20. November 2012, 19:55: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Howabout just holding out until the next General Synod? I mean, if the conservatives leave because of women priests, and the liberals leave because of women bishops, who the hell will be left? Who is going to start having faith in the Church as the heir to the promises of Jesus Christ?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
How about the Quakers, CK?
They tend to be pretty liberal.
And they don't talk an awful lot either so there's very little there to fall out over ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
people will reject the church as irrelevant.
Lost cause. Let it go.
This. Wed the Spirit of this Age and you'll find yourself a widow(er) in the next. People aren't interested in "liberal" religion because it doesn't offer them anything that they can't get (and usually more satisfactorily) in the secular world.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Because this one has been sitting unresolved for 25 years. It now has another 5 years before it could go back to the next General Synod, which under current rules it has to. (Spawn said in Dead Horses that it could possibly go back to this one.)
I am not saying that this is the only reason I would leave, but that it is the final straw that means I cannot go back, in all conscience, having already drifted away over the past few months. And that drift was a mixture of burn out and a number of other issues. Since I drifted there have been two major decisions that mean I do not feel I can go back.
So, what alternatives are there currently available if the CofE is not an option?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The pro-lobby took no heed of the suggestions from the two archbishops (so much for an episcopally-led church - if they ignore archbishops, what's the point of having bishops, male or female?) and seemed hell-bent on forcing 'traditionalists' out of the church in the name of 'inclusive church'.
Wow, leo. You are a truly liberal liberal. And I can respect that a great deal.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
what alternatives are there currently available if the CofE is not an option?
Quite a lot, but I suspect that an awful lot of them are ruled out by unexpressed issues... I mean, Quakers would give you both SSM and the priesthood of all believers, but I'm kind of doubting that you'd jump?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So, what alternatives are there currently available if the CofE is not an option?
Stay Anglican but act like a presbyterian for the time being. It's the only way forward that I can see.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Most evangelical Anglicans seem to act like presbyterians already, daronmedway.
So I'm hardly surprised that you're suggesting it as an option.
Are there any liberal, MoR or other non-evangelical Anglicans who act like presbyterians?
Or is it just the evos?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Most evangelical Anglicans seem to act like presbyterians already, daronmedway.
Yes, and the solution to that particular aberration lies with the episcopate, not their representatives. When so many bishops fail to exercise proper apostolic ministry too many presbyters will fail to operate under their authority.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
people will reject the church as irrelevant.
Lost cause. Let it go.
This. Wed the Spirit of this Age and you'll find yourself a widow(er) in the next. People aren't interested in "liberal" religion because it doesn't offer them anything that they can't get (and usually more satisfactorily) in the secular world.
Except as John Holding wisely points out: quote:
I'm guessing the problem arises because many members of the CofE actually think that the eucharist, celebrated by a community led by an episcopally ordained priest is a matter of importance, not just a bit of window dressing that's nice to have if you can get it.
If we didn't believe in all that religion and sacramental rubbish we'd be quite happy outside the church.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Wed the Spirit of this Age and you'll find yourself a widow(er) in the next. People aren't interested in "liberal" religion because it doesn't offer them anything that they can't get (and usually more satisfactorily) in the secular world.
To prevent women joining the episcopate is the action of a church wedded to the spirit of a previous age. And this issue, along with SSM, is one reason why it is widowed from many in society. Are people really avoiding the church because it isn't "conservative" enough? How many non-churchgoers will be inspired by the women bishops refusal?
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I would seriously consider seeking alternative episcopal oversight from somewhere like USA or Canada. If it were offered, I would bite their hand off.
In the meantime, as a gesture of my disgust, I will do the little I can. No robes. No participation in deanery or diocesan events or activities. Let the bishop do what he dares. I no longer care.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Local URC / Methodist minister is YECcie - not an option.
What's a YECcie?
I'm with you. Stunningly frustrated. To keep waiting from Synod to Synod in the vain hope that something might happen (and oh look, it didn't, oh well there's always the next one in another five years) doesn't seem like a particularly good option right now. Looking towards both the Methodists and the Quakers. And, as someone said upthread, removing my money from the institutional CofE.
As ever the challenge is I love my local shack.
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
If it were offered, I would bite their hand off.
In that case, we aren't offering! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Sheesh
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
What a night!
Neither this nor Middle East cease-fire *
*that was all day promised in the overseas media and locally from 1700; spozed to be being announced at 2100 (ours) and by 2050 there weren't even chairs set out for the Big Press Conference
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How about the Quakers, CK?
They tend to be pretty liberal.
And they don't talk an awful lot either so there's very little there to fall out over ...
How little you know us! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Seriously, I started the move to Quakers because the then debate on the ordination of women made me painfully aware of the fact that "the priesthood of all believers" was not something the CofE had signed up for, as I had previously supposed. I still (occasionally) miss the Eucharist. There are Friends in dual membership, as I originally intended to be, but Quakerism is not a good wholesale alternative for people who actually want priests, male or female.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed...
Local URC / Methodist minister is YECcie - not an option.
Oh, how awful. The thought of having anything to do with someone whose view of the origin of life is different from yours. What ghastly contagion!
Good luck in your search for a church where everybody thinks exactly like you.
(Funny, but I didn't think that was the point of the Church.)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I was teasing, QLib ...
Actually, thinking about it ... the thing that would prevent my becoming a Quaker would be the eucharist.
@daronmedway - point taken, but what, in your view, constitutes proper apostolic ministry on the part of the CofE episcopate? Something that approximates to your own 'take' on it?
I've only met a small number of charismatic evangelical Anglican bishops and I can't say I've been that impressed ...
I won't name names.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...
Local URC / Methodist minister is YECcie - not an option.
Oh, how awful. The thought of having anything to do with someone whose view of the origin of life is different from yours. What ghastly contagion!
Good luck in your search for a church where everybody thinks exactly like you.
(Funny, but I didn't think that was the point of the Church.)
Actually, I'm far happier out of church entirely. That way I do not have to deal with those who are not prepared to engage with ideas not covered by the Bible or remove my God given brains at the door.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... EE ...
I'm not sure that's what Curiosity Killed is saying. I happen to know that she spent a good many years in a church where there was a diversity of views and many YEC-ies (although not in leadership).
I can understand why she wouldn't want to be in a church where the leader held such views.
You know my views on the charismatic evangelical scene - as someone who is sort of post-evangelical/post-charismatic to an extent.
Would it be sensible for me to start attending a Pentecostal church, say, or some kind of independent charismatic evangelical fellowship given my previous experience in those kind of settings - for good or ill?
The same applies with Curiosity Killed and YEC-ie types. I don't blame her for wanting a break from such people.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Haven't we got more important things to do? TOGETHER? Rather than being liberal or traditional?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
What you do will depend upon what you want from your organised church. Integrity? Equality? Love of others as yourself, male or female? Facilitation of calling, male or female? Candles, gowns, windows?
I think Raptor Eye has a point, Ck; if you can set out what are your non-negotiables we might be in a better position to suggest alternatives. For example, is having an episcopally-ordained Ministry a factor for you? Would being part of a small denomination put you off? What is your willingness to travel to worship? What do you think of your local options, etc?
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Just back from the pub. We're all gutted. Six votes in the House of Laity. But keep the faith. It will happen. Just not quickly enough. So sorry for all our supporters. A very sad day.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Local URC / Methodist minister is YECcie - not an option.
As a Methodist presbyteral minister, I would love to know what "YECcie" means. It is a term with which I am entirely unfamiliar, and cannot even guess at!
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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