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Originally posted by churchgeek:
Other churches may not place such value on using what Jesus used, especially those that consider it a memorial meal. In some cases, it may be understood to be so symbolic of Jesus' body and blood that it is desired to use a liquid that looks like blood (red wine or red grape juice) - if that's the issue, I can't see why a cherry wine (a wonderful product of my home state of Michigan) couldn't be used.

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I'm not sure that you can argue you can make wine out of anything other than grapes... even the name (wine and vine are just the same word, I think...).

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Originally posted by seasick:
I'm afraid to say I've always thought the "it shouldn't look like it because it is it" argument to be a little strange. Surely the sign value is enhanced if it does look like it?

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Considering the question of staples, at least, rules out one experiment I've heard of (from someone who was there) where some seminarians in the '70s tried consecrating Doritos and Coke, and concluded that it didn't work at all. No matter what you think of the necessity to use the exact same thing Jesus used, it's easy to see that Doritos and Coke are junk food, not healthy dietary staples!

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And flat, little, flour wafers are "healthy dietary staples"? I think not. No more healthy than plain, unfried tortillas.

(However, I agree that Coke is the beverage of the Devil.)

Besides- are we sure they didn't eat barley bread? Not that it would help those with celiac disease.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Originally posted by churchgeek:
you can't use a fortified wine - I think that's also true in the Episcopal Church. There are wines that are sold as "approved for altar use."

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I'm not sure that you can argue you can make wine out of anything other than grapes... even the name (wine and vine are just the same word, I think...).

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Wine is from Latin Vinum, wine (Latin V is pronounced as a W). Vine is from Latin Vinea, vine or vinyard. Both derive from the same root, vin-

/linguistic geek public service announcement

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I'm not sure that you can argue you can make wine out of anything other than grapes... even the name (wine and vine are just the same word, I think...).

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Wine is from Latin Vinum, wine (Latin V is pronounced as a W). Vine is from Latin Vinea, vine or vinyard. Both derive from the same root, vin-

/linguistic geek public service announcement

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Yes, thought it would have been something like this. Thank you for the entomology!

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Or even etymology ..

Cognate with Latin uinum is the Greek oinos. Unqualified this means wine as we would understand it, but it also occurs in the phrase oinos ek krithon 'wine from barley', or some kind of beer. oinos ex ampelou 'wine from grapes' is found where specifically grape wine is meant.

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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

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Originally posted by ldjjd:
Are we sure of even the color of the wine at the Last Supper? Perhaps it looked like this but without the fancy bottle and price tag.

If symbolism is primary, doesn't chruchgeek have a point in suggesting that there are fruit wines and juices that more closely than grape wine resemble blood?

On the other hand, if we want to do "what Jesus did", and we recognize that our knowledge in this area has some limitations, isn't white wine (and white grape juice for those who don't use wine) just as "authentic" (as far as we know) as the red varities?

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Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
Fermented juice of the grape contains alcohol by its very nature. Therefore, in the CofE only of course, only fermented wine, containing alcohol, may lawfully be used...

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Originally posted by Eirenist:
I remember reading an account written by a chaplain in a North Korean POW camp of how he celebrated Holy Communion for his fellow-prisoners at Christmas with rice cakes and a some rice wine obtained by bribing a guard with cigarettes.

Do we maintain that this was not a valid celebration? or was it nullified, not by the incorrect elements but by the unethical bribe to the guard?

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Originally posted by Eirenist:
Do we maintain that this was not a valid celebration? or was it nullified, not by the incorrect elements but by the unethical bribe to the guard?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...if he has sufficient Power Points available and has learnt the Consubstantiate or Transubtantiate spells and listed them amongst his memorised spells on his character sheet, naturally.

Perhaps using alternative elements results in a -5 to the D20 casting roll?

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What a Western approach!

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Originally posted by Eirenist:
I remember reading an account written by a chaplain in a North Korean POW camp of how he celebrated Holy Communion for his fellow-prisoners at Christmas with rice cakes and a some rice wine obtained by bribing a guard with cigarettes.

Do we maintain that this was not a valid celebration? or was it nullified, not by the incorrect elements but by the unethical bribe to the guard?

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Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
I suspect Karl's wise comment refers most particularly to the Church of Middle Earth rather than the CofE, but there may be some overlap....

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Originally posted by ldjjd:
Are we sure of even the color of the wine at the Last Supper? Perhaps it looked like this but without the fancy bottle and price tag.

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Originally posted by Ebbtide:

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Originally posted by ldjjd:
Are we sure of even the color of the wine at the Last Supper? Perhaps it looked like this but without the fancy bottle and price tag.

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The Jewish practice of using only white wine at Passover was initiated during the Middle Ages in order to dispel the anti-Semitic libel that Jews mixed the wine with the blood of Christian children. Before that, either red or white wine could be used, so which was used at the Last Supper is anybody's guess.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...if he has sufficient Power Points available and has learnt the Consubstantiate or Transubtantiate spells and listed them amongst his memorised spells on his character sheet, naturally.

Perhaps using alternative elements results in a -5 to the D20 casting roll?

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...if he has sufficient Power Points available and has learnt the Consubstantiate or Transubtantiate spells and listed them amongst his memorised spells on his character sheet, naturally.

Perhaps using alternative elements results in a -5 to the D20 casting roll?

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Surely Consubstantiate and Transubstantiate are Cleric spells, not Magic User ones! And in any case, don't the wrong material components usually make a botch of the spell?

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Only if you're doing magic. Personally, I think that's not what we're doing at Mass.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...if he has sufficient Power Points available and has learnt the Consubstantiate or Transubtantiate spells and listed them amongst his memorised spells on his character sheet, naturally.

Perhaps using alternative elements results in a -5 to the D20 casting roll?

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Surely Consubstantiate and Transubstantiate are Cleric spells, not Magic User ones! And in any case, don't the wrong material components usually make a botch of the spell?

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Originally posted by churchgeek:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...if he has sufficient Power Points available and has learnt the Consubstantiate or Transubtantiate spells and listed them amongst his memorised spells on his character sheet, naturally.

Perhaps using alternative elements results in a -5 to the D20 casting roll?

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Surely Consubstantiate and Transubstantiate are Cleric spells, not Magic User ones! And in any case, don't the wrong material components usually make a botch of the spell?

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Only if you're doing magic. Personally, I think that's not what we're doing at Mass.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

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Originally posted by Ebbtide:

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Originally posted by ldjjd:
Are we sure of even the color of the wine at the Last Supper? Perhaps it looked like this but without the fancy bottle and price tag.

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The Jewish practice of using only white wine at Passover was initiated during the Middle Ages in order to dispel the anti-Semitic libel that Jews mixed the wine with the blood of Christian children. Before that, either red or white wine could be used, so which was used at the Last Supper is anybody's guess.

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I would suggest that seeing as the constant practice of the Church, from the Apostles to this day, has to been to use only red wine then here is your answer. Nothing to do with guess work.

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I look forawrd to the production of the invoice or bottle lable from Corinth in 93AD to prove this confident assertion...

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Ό δε ανεξέταστος βίος ου βιωτος ανθρώπω.

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Originally posted by anon four:
I look forawrd to the production of the invoice or bottle lable from Corinth in 93AD to prove this confident assertion...

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Still, the practice of the Church speaks volumes, I feel. But then I guess that all depends upon how one views practice within the Church.

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Originally posted by Eirenist:
Do we maintain that [a celebration of the Eucharist with rice cakes and rice wine] was not a valid celebration? or was it nullified, not by the incorrect elements but by the unethical bribe to the guard?

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Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
So . . . is this something to which more denominations should give consideration, along with the gluten-sensitivity matter?

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I would suggest that seeing as the constant practice of the Church, from the Apostles to this day, has to been to use only red wine then here is your answer. Nothing to do with guess work.

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Originally posted by malik3000:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I would suggest that seeing as the constant practice of the Church, from the Apostles to this day, has to been to use only red wine then here is your answer. Nothing to do with guess work.

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In my life i've often been at RC celebrations of the Eucharist where white wine has been used.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If that's so then the celebrant was acting in opposition to 1. Tradition and 2. RC canon law.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
For the first one just look at the practice of the Church. Ask yourself, was it ever custom anywhere at anytime to use white wine? Certainly not in the ancient Churches of the East and West. The second you'll have to wait for.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Well, if you think tradition is picking the right document from a pile of documents then you're sorely mistaken. The only justification I have seen (and it's a poor justification at that) for using white wine is that red wine leave stains on the altar cloth. This to me seems nothing more than a rationalisation for a novelty. The Eastern Churches stipulate that it must be fermented, red grape wine.

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