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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Of Archdeacons
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Simon
Editor
# 1
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Posted
I'm giving an after-dinner speech next week at the UK national get-together of C of E Archdeacons, on a Ship of Fools ticket. I confess I don't know the breed very well and wondered if any kind souls would be willing to post any insider notes about these curious creatures... or even stories about Archdeacons you have known.
The two fictional Archdeacons who stick in my mind are Archdeacon Grantly of Barchester, and Archdeacon Robert of BBC TV's Rev, both of them darkly menacing. Presumably, they're caricatures, but caricatures of what, exactly?
Forgive me posting a request for help when I'm such an infrequent visitor to these shores.
[ 29. April 2013, 21:58: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Eternal memory
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Archdeacon: The crook at the head of the bishop's staff ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Cornish High
Apprentice
# 17202
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Posted
The most unedifying thing ever heard from the lips of a former Archdeacon of Aston at one of his visitations was, "gentlemen, you must look to your drains".I am sure he was not alone in his concern for churchwardens caring for the church's fabric but the point could have been better expresses.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I think its a caricature because they are very often in the position feeling they should have been the Bishop - but they got the booby prize to keep them happy, or because they are the Bishop's rabid dog to do all the hard stuff he doesn't want to mess up his hands with. Sometimes - maybe even more often than not - the cap fits. Tread lightly or be mauled!
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
At all the Archdeacons' Visitations I've ever attended, the sermon always includes jokes about every Archdeacon's obsession with guttering, pointing and dressed stonework. I think it's more an affliction that goes with the job, than a genuine enthusiasm about church architecture and the drains.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
In Joanne Trollope's The Rector's Wife the Rector very much wants to be Archdeacon and suffers a breakdown when he doesn't get the position. The man who does get the job is wonderful -- and has a sexy younger brother!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Giving workshops in my previous incarnation, I occasionally quoted Archdeacon Grantly who said, "Whenever I hear a man boasting of his honesty, I straightaway check to see if my pocketbook is safe." Other bon mots include: "The legal profession does not concern itself with morality"
In The Warden, Trollope describes him: quote:
he looked like an ecclesiastical statue ... as a fitting impersonation of the church militant here on earth; his shovel hat, large, new, and well-pronounced, a churchman's hat in every inch, declared the profession as plainly as does the Quakers broad brim; his heavy eyebrow, large, open eyes, and full mouth and chin expressed the solidity of his order; the broad chest, amply covered with fine cloth, told how well to do was his estate; one hand ensconced within his pocket, evinced the practical hold which our mother church keeps on her temporal possessions; and the other, loose for action, was ready to fight if need be for her defence; and, below these, the decorous breeches and neat black gaiters showing so admirably that well-turned leg, betokened the decency, the outward beauty, and grace of our church establishment".
The Archdeacon combined "the dignity of an ancient saint" with "the sleekness of a modern bishop." and so forth. I think that there's quite a bit hear, along with references to Saint Lawrence, the martyred archdeacon of Rome, who went to the grill (patron of barbecues?) rather than show the authorities the diocesan books and given them the PIN. I find archdeacons always seem to be greatly affected by tales or archidiaconal martyrdoms.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I think some Archdeacons have a very hard time indeed. Our retiring Archdeacon, who has been absolutely fantastic and will be sorely missed, told us that on his very first day as Archdeacon he was rung by the police at about 7am and had to rock up at a local police station as one of the vicars under his jurisdiction had been arrested. The police had, apparently, rung the outgoing Archdeacon whose immediate response had been "Oh, ring X, he's in charge now"...
It's not all faculties for building new toilets!
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
Num archidiaconus salvari potest? (Can an archdeacon be saved?)
- John of Salisbury (1120-1180), Epist. CLXVI
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
In times of stress, Archdeacons are sometimes referred to as Archdemons, if that helps.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
My father went hiking with an archdeacon for some years and heard plenty of good stories, none of which one is at all at liberty to divulge.
This notwithstanding ,the modern archdeacon is I believe a somewhat less draconian and more prosaically professional clergyman or woman. I'd be interested to know how they react after a few sherries though, I find the thought of them letting down their collective hair an amusing and slightly terrifying thought!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
Num archidiaconus salvari potest? (Can an archdeacon be saved?)
- John of Salisbury (1120-1180), Epist. CLXVI
I think the Latin's a bit stronger than your translation: it's more like "Surely an archdeacon can't be saved?"
Though, to be honest, I don't think I've ever met an archdeacon I've disliked. They've all seemed good-humoured and pleasant people, with a healthy interest in all things alcoholic.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
Num archidiaconus salvari potest? (Can an archdeacon be saved?)
- John of Salisbury (1120-1180), Epist. CLXVI
I think the Latin's a bit stronger than your translation: it's more like "Surely an archdeacon can't be saved?"
Though, to be honest, I don't think I've ever met an archdeacon I've disliked. They've all seemed good-humoured and pleasant people, with a healthy interest in all things alcoholic.
Thinking on this with respect to the Summoner's Tale, I think the reason archdeacons used to be unpopular was that they were the ones who put people on trial in the ecclesiastical courts...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Simon
Editor
# 1
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Posted
It's amazing to think people have been filling this office for such a long stretch of time, going back via Trollope and Chaucer to dear BBQ'd St Lawrence. Thanks for the wealth of detail and reference so far... all v. helpful for me, and hopefully entertaining as a thread.
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Eternal memory
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Another admirer of Archdeacon Robert checking in!
Sorry to inject a nerdily serious note, but Archdeacons are of course familiar creatures in Anglicanism. According to the above references it seems they predate the Reformation, yet as far as I am aware they are unknown in the present day RCC. When did they disappear there? Or were they just an English phenomenon?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
Though the phrase was well known, when I asked one archdeacon how he was he replied with a straight face - 'Venomous as ever' (playing, of course on their title, The Ven.).
Mind you, for reasons of financial constraint, THIS diocese has disposed of the servcices of all archdeacons - so maybe the question is 'Are archdeacons really required?' (only once in 20 years at a church did we ever had a proper archeaconal inspection of the peoperty, during a vacancy).
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
They are part-time positions in the Church of Ireland, held by experienced clergy in combination with their parish post. So as to necessity I guess it depends on how many parishes there are to be cared for - I think RC diocese in England and Wales have assign the same duties to vicar generals so there is clearly a need for the role, whatever it is called.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
One of the minor mysteries of the CoE is why, despite the title (and the custom of the early church), a deacon cannot become an archdeacon. It lays down that archdeacons have to be in presbyter's orders. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Does it indeed? I thought that there were one or two female archdeacons before women were ordained priest.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
The requirement was introduced in 1662; in 1840 the additional requirement of having been in presbyter's orders for at least six years was made.
Add to the list of fictional archdeacons Robertson Hare in "All Gas and Gaiters".
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Angloid is correct. I met a female Archdeacon pre-1994 who was in Deacon's orders.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Another admirer of Archdeacon Robert checking in!
Sorry to inject a nerdily serious note, but Archdeacons are of course familiar creatures in Anglicanism. According to the above references it seems they predate the Reformation, yet as far as I am aware they are unknown in the present day RCC. When did they disappear there? Or were they just an English phenomenon?
IIRC most archidiaconal functions in the RCC are now performed by vicars general. However, Spanish dioceses still have archdeacons, and Cdl Alvarez, retired Abp of Toledo & Primate of Spain, went from canon to archdeacon at an early age--- he seems to have been the equivalent of the executive assistant or (in TEC-speak) the canon to the ordinary. I have seen a sign outside the office of the Archdeacon of Santander in the diocesan office when I went to get my pilgrim's credential stamped in 2011, so there is likely one there.
The last Cardinal Archdeacon of Rome, the reformer Hildebrand (S Gregory VII) suppressed his former dignity but there is still a Cardinal Protodeacon (Jean-Louis Tauran, titular Abp of Telepte), but he seems to be the senior cardinal deacon. Cdl Fesch, Napoleon's uncle, began his career as Archdeacon of Ajaccio. I telephoned my Usual Source on Trivia of the Scarlet Lady, and he told me that, while the office technically exists at the primatial cathedral in Québec City, he does not think that it has been filled for the past half-century. He tells me that there are occasionally mutterings of re-instituting the office to supervise permanent deacons, but it appears that people would rather be a Vicar General for Deacons, or a Diocesan Coordinator of Diaconal Ministries. I told him that I thought that the introduction of aprons and gaiters would stimulate ecumenical reflexions, but he didn't think that this was very amusing. O well.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
My father went hiking with an archdeacon for some years ...
They must have gone a terribly long way. (I'll get me coat.)
There is IIRC a splendidly villainous Archdeacon, the Abbe Troubert, in Balzac's Le Cure de Tours, which also has a comfortable but innocent little canon and a plot about ecclesiastical preferment, but which I think pre-dates The Warden by some years.
Our Archdeacon here (Llandaff) leads circle dancing: alas not as I had hoped on whirling Dervish lines, though.
Oh, and I think the Scottish Episcopalians don't have them. Does TEC?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Oh, and I think the Scottish Episcopalians don't have them. Does TEC?
Depends on the diocese. In dioceses that have them, they tend to be either the bishop's first assistant, or the overseer of the deacons that occupies his or her time emphasizing the distinction between vocational and transitional deacons.
[ 17. January 2013, 00:34: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The Episcopal Diocese of Arizona has a Deacon as our Archdeacon. "As the Archdeacon, she is the overseer of the Deacons within the Diocese, and the Administrator for the Deacons' Formation Academy."
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The Sydney diocese has a woman archdeacon, she being responsible for the ministry of and to women. Of course, this being Sydney, she is not a priest but a deacon.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
It's amazing to think people have been filling this office for such a long stretch of time, going back via Trollope and Chaucer to dear BBQ'd St Lawrence.
Further than that - some, at least, would see Stephen as Protomartyr and Archdeacon. Clearly it was a tricky job back then, but perhaps a little less dangerous now?
I recall a story, which I probably read on the Ship, of a church that had the Archdeacon coming to lead Evensong. The printed order of service the church used indicated which parts were to be said by the 'Minister' and which by 'All'. For the occasion new versions were printed, using "Find and replace" to change 'Minister' to 'Archdeacon'. All was well until they found themselves with, apparently, a particular need to pray that God should, "Endue thy Archdeacons with righteousness".
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
You may find some helpful material in
this sermon
by the Bishop of Monmouth.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
One of the times when you are likely to regularly meet the Archdeacon is during a time of interregnum (or other problem with staffing in the parish, eg. sickness, breakdown) - although there is other help from assistant / retired priests or occasional help from nearby parishes, the Archdeacon will often oversee the change and start the ball rolling by presiding and preaching, and holding any necessary meetings, to encourage everyone at the start of this ministry. Some of them are very good at this ministry of Encouragement, and are not nasty or fierce, as in the popular image, at all.
And, of course, you should know that formally Archdeacons should be known as (The Ancient and) Venerable, but informally as 'Archie'. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Though, to be honest, I don't think I've ever met an archdeacon I've disliked. They've all seemed good-humoured and pleasant people, with a healthy interest in all things alcoholic.
Yup. At their best, Archdeacons are brilliant. They deal with all the muck and horror of parish life, make sure most laws are adhered to, and are attached to a drip that feeds them coffee at all times.
You remember that episode of Rev where Adam is having a nightmare? He dreams that the Archdeacon is sitting on his loo saying "I poo snakes". Put it like this - I think one Archdeacon was considering calling another AD conference "Pooing Snakes". They're good people to have around.
If they don't pay attention to legal matters and how to work with difficult people, they're of less use than a chocolate fireguard. They need to be tough buggers.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
are attached to a drip that feeds them coffee at all times.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) The running joke that has Archdeacon Robert pouring away Adam's or Adoha's instant 'coffee' always amuses me.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Traveller
Shipmate
# 1943
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Posted
One point that no-one has made yet is that several cathedral chapters have the Archdeacon of the city amongst their number. Canterbury is one such, and the Archdeacon of Canterbury (Ven Sheila Watson) enthroned the Bishop of Chichester, according to the Mystery Worship report.
It is definitely a preferment in the church. It can be a step on the way to greater things, such as a purple shirt, or it can be a way of a Bishop using the wide pastoral experience of a respected clergyperson as a safe pair of hands to deal with problems.
Archdeacons are usually involved in parish clerical appointments, and there is an interesting comment in the back page interview of the Church Times last week from a psychatrist who sits on clergy selection conferences: "I try to help the archeacons of the future by spotting the folk who will cause them sleepless nights in 15 years' time", which I thought was interesting.
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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Angloid is correct. I met a female Archdeacon pre-1994 who was in Deacon's orders.
Interesting. The Diocese of Chichester brought a motion to the ?July Synod (turns out it was originally meant for July 2011) to allow diaconal archdeacons and it was voted down, for some reason that I just do not understand.
More here.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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maryjones
Shipmate
# 13523
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Posted
My first sight of an Archdeacon disappointed me. He didn't look venerable at all!
In clerical murder mysteries, I notice that Archdeacons are generally hard-working, thoughtful and efficient - as opposed to Deans, who are are usually the victim
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
I'm starting to wish I could hear your talk! Looks like you are going to have some good material.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Traveller:
One point that no-one has made yet is that several cathedral chapters have the Archdeacon of the city amongst their number. Canterbury is one such, and the Archdeacon of Canterbury (Ven Sheila Watson) enthroned the Bishop of Chichester, according to the Mystery Worship report.
I believe this is a role that the Archdeacon of Canterbury has in all English episcopal enthronements as a representative of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
That may be only in the province of Canterbury, basillica. I have an idea it is someone else (and not the Archdeacon of York) in the Northern Province. But I don't know of sure. (I have no experience arranging episcopal enthronements, but if someone would like to give me the chance, it would keep me off the streets.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Simon
Editor
# 1
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Posted
Thanks, everyone, for all the info and gossip about the Venomous Ones. Especially like the story, Chapelhead about enduing archdeacons with righteousness, but even the more arcane details about the lives and works of archdeacons are great background too. 1,000 blessings for this, and any more postings welcome.
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Eternal memory
Posts: 3787 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That may be only in the province of Canterbury, basillica. I have an idea it is someone else (and not the Archdeacon of York) in the Northern Province. But I don't know of sure. (I have no experience arranging episcopal enthronements, but if someone would like to give me the chance, it would keep me off the streets.)
This may be so, although the previous Archdeacon of Norwich was also a canon of the cathedral so could have done the same thing with a +Norvic had one been appointed. I've never knowingly encountered the Archdeacon of Canterbury, however...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I never understood why the Archdeacon of Canterbury enthroned the Bishop of Chichester (a different diocese) but I'm sure it makes sense really?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Because, as Basilica pointed out upthread, the Archdeacon of Canterbury is the Archbishop of Canterbury's representative and, as such, reads a greeting from the archbishop.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I've never knowingly encountered the Archdeacon of Canterbury, however...
Think Daphne Whitethigh (Round the Horne). Well the voice, anyway.
Very deep, and really quite marvellous.
[ 17. January 2013, 17:50: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Angloid is correct. I met a female Archdeacon pre-1994 who was in Deacon's orders.
If Angloid is correct, then the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (by which I verified my recollection) is in error. Or, dare I say it, vice-versa, though that would involve contradicting an administrator, the penalty for which is doubtless hair-raising ... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
However, if there be no bar to a deacon being made archdeacon, why, as recently as 2011, should the question have been raised in the diocese of Chichester as to whether the practice be permitted?
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
If Angloid is correct, then the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (by which I verified my recollection) is in error. Or, dare I say it, vice-versa, though that would involve contradicting an administrator, the penalty for which is doubtless hair-raising ...
However, if there be no bar to a deacon being made archdeacon, why, as recently as 2011, should the question have been raised in the diocese of Chichester as to whether the practice be permitted?
Because... Anglicanism.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
If Angloid is correct, then the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (by which I verified my recollection) is in error. Or, dare I say it, vice-versa, though that would involve contradicting an administrator, the penalty for which is doubtless hair-raising ...
However, if there be no bar to a deacon being made archdeacon, why, as recently as 2011, should the question have been raised in the diocese of Chichester as to whether the practice be permitted?
Because... Anglicanism.
Because...Chichester.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Peter Owen
Shipmate
# 134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does it indeed? I thought that there were one or two female archdeacons before women were ordained priest.
Canon C22 as currently enacted states:
1. No person shall be capable of receiving the appointment of archdeacon until he has been six years complete in holy orders and is in priest's orders at the time of the appointment.
Earlier the canon specified a minimum period in priest's orders.
I am confident that it has never been possible for a person not in priest's orders to be an archdeacon. But I have a vague recollection (which may of course be mistaken) that at least one bishop appointed a women deacon to a post where she did as much of an archdeacon's normal duties as can be done without actually being an archdeacon. Perhaps this is what Angloid is thinking of.
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Πετρος
Posts: 266 | From: overlooking Liverpool Bay | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Peter is very possibly right. I only thought that I had heard of a diaconal archdeacon; never to my knowledge have I met one so I bow to greater knowledge.
I suppose if the OoW as priests had not gone forward, there would have been pressure to amend the canons to allow deacons to serve as archdeacons, as seems fitting in any case. It is a diaconal sort of job, not a priestly one.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
If Angloid is correct, then the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (by which I verified my recollection) is in error. Or, dare I say it, vice-versa, though that would involve contradicting an administrator, the penalty for which is doubtless hair-raising ...
However, if there be no bar to a deacon being made archdeacon, why, as recently as 2011, should the question have been raised in the diocese of Chichester as to whether the practice be permitted?
Because... Anglicanism.
Because...Chichester.
Wasn't Charles Lutwidge Dodgson an Anglican deacon?
Perhaps by way of experiment someone might suggest the (re-)introduction of the office of archpriest into the CoE. If the powers that be agreed, but insisted that the office could only be held by one in episcopal orders, the underlying principle of this odd state of affairs would become apparent.
[ 17. January 2013, 21:56: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Peter Owen
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# 134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Wasn't Charles Lutwidge Dodgson an Anglican deacon?
Yes he was, but he wasn't an archdeacon.
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Πετρος
Posts: 266 | From: overlooking Liverpool Bay | Registered: May 2001
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Owen:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Wasn't Charles Lutwidge Dodgson an Anglican deacon?
Yes he was, but he wasn't an archdeacon.
No, but I didn't suggest that he was. What I had in mind is that the stories who wrote for Alice Liddell may have drawn their inspiration not only from the idiosyncracies of Victorian Oxford, but also from those of the CoE.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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