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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Talking about things is not possible in church. Discuss.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
An almost throwaway comment by MartinPCnot on another thread:
And I´m sick of myself whinging about it out in the wilderness as no conversation is possible in church.
sparked something off in me, as I realised we go to church to listen, but never to discuss our own thoughts. But perhaps this is because my church follows a very didactic model, with worshippers sitting neatly in their pews being talked at.
Do other shipmates have experiences to share of when churches manage to give opportunities for people to air their thoughts, or is this very rare? Would it be convenient for some church leaders not to have their congregations questioning and puzzling over what gets uttered from the front? Are some people, like me, on the ship regularly precisely because it provides a forum for discussion which is not possible in church?
If discussion were to be introduced as a regular feature in churches, when and how should it happen?
[ 09. October 2013, 07:37: Message edited by: seasick ]
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PD
Shipmate
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Posted
The coffee hour gets rather lively here discussion-wise when we have the right mix of folks present.
PD
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Small Christian communities meeting in homes, or in spaces provided by the parish; clergy making home visits or meeting with people in the office; coffee hour; bible study groups; church schools of all levels; retreat centers; Lenten soup suppers / fish fries; summer parish picnic; wherever two or three are gathered!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
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Posted
And of course, Facebook, Twitter, and other social media services.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I realised we go to church to listen, but never to discuss our own thoughts... If discussion were to be introduced as a regular feature in churches, when and how should it happen?
Yeah, most typical church forms don't allow for much discussion and exploring of our own thoughts and feelings. Bit of a hobby-horse of mine, this; how most church services invite the congregation to join in with what the clergy-people (and some lay people like Readers, musicians etc.) have prepared, but don't give the congregation much opportunity to share from their own interaction with God.
Small groups, church social events and so on are great contexts for discussion and every-member ministry, but you could also have a flick through these two blogs for more ideas of how some people are doing it in a whole-church context:
Church in a Circle
The Assembling of the Church
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
The principle services of the Church are not for the sharing of life stories or the bringing together of diverse 'viewpoints', but for the corporate exercise of the ministries assigned to each order of the church (including the order of the laos) in the worship of God through the Great Sacrament of the Eucharist (which is both a meal and a ritual, in contrast to the second 'blog SCK linked to).
The desirability or otherwise of large- or small-group discussion besides this formal worship is another matter, which should not distract us from our true callings.
Personally, I think we tend to talk a little too much , without ever really saying anything [mea culpa, certainly]. I imagine most attempts at large-scale groups sharing would be just as trite as anything one might hear over the coffee urn after Mass.
Small groups might be different: I get a lot out of a small number of spiritual friendships, within which I can discuss theology in depth. Do I think everyone should have such friendships? Yes. Do I think such discussion should become the normative practice of the Church corporately? Absolutely not.
I'm sure I've misunderstood a number of positions, and would be happy to have misimpressions corrected, obviously.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The principle services of the Church are not for the sharing of life stories or the bringing together of diverse 'viewpoints'
I agree. When the church gathers together it should be for mutual encouragement and strengthening in our faith (at least that's what my Bible says ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ). The typical structure of most church services doesn't make this easy, ISTM.
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
How can the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament not be tremendously encouraging and strengthening?
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
How can the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament not be tremendously encouraging and strengthening?
Fair point, but it's not exactly strengthening and encouraging one another, is it? That's the raison d'etre for church gatherings, ISTM. And the way most churches (including my own!) do communion these days isn't exactly true to the New Testament pattern, as part of a full meal in fellowship with one another, with all partaking as equals whatever their social status.
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
I think the primary purpose of Sunday services is for God's people to worship God, for us to "declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light" (1 Peter 2:9). That said, I don't see why that necessarily precludes times for discussion etc.; in fact, I've tried to encourage this at our place. The main problem has been trying to find a way to do it: some people don't like talking "out loud" in front of everyone, others don't like talking in small groups, some people think it's too much like being at school... Picking your way through that lot is a nightmare!
I guess for us Baptists (and Congregationalists and other churches that run on a similar governance) church meetings should be a place where this happens; it rarely does, at least in my experience, and I've a feeling that's my fault for not encouraging it and allowing the space for it to happen. I'd love to have a discussion time about, say, the subject of the sermon with space for people to rip holes in what I've said, but finding the right way of doing that is the hard part.
And I think it's important not to overlook all the conversations that happen outside of formal services and meetings, but which nonetheless are significant and perhaps have a more immediate influence on what goes on than the "formal" conversations.
(Incidentally, I know of one Baptist church in Manchester that has a much shorter morning service, followed by coffee/tea, followed by a second session which is much less formal and much more interactive and discursive, with different members of the congregation being invited to prepare and lead it. I'm sure, Kevin, it'd be right up your street.)
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
How can the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament not be tremendously encouraging and strengthening?
Fair point, but it's not exactly strengthening and encouraging one another, is it? That's the raison d'etre for church gatherings, ISTM. And the way most churches (including my own!) do communion these days isn't exactly true to the New Testament pattern, as part of a full meal in fellowship with one another, with all partaking as equals whatever their social status.
But the liturgical tradition, which is antecedent to the NT, and which the NT must therefore describe, was hierarchically ordered and involved the community celebrating according to their diverse orders, so it wasn't really like a communal meal with everyone 'equal' (which I take to mean doing the same things more or less interchangeably) at all (and neither was the chaburah ritual from which the Last Supper draws its potency)
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
More power to your elbow, Stejjie! May God guide your efforts. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
(Incidentally, I know of one Baptist church in Manchester that has a much shorter morning service, followed by coffee/tea, followed by a second session which is much less formal and much more interactive and discursive, with different members of the congregation being invited to prepare and lead it. I'm sure, Kevin, it'd be right up your street.)
Oh yes, very much up my street. There's a fair chance I'll be moving away from the south coast in the next 6-12 months, and if my travels take me near your neck of the woods then I may well be in touch! Both to check out this other church and to see how yours is getting on.
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
But the liturgical tradition, which is antecedent to the NT, and which the NT must therefore describe, was hierarchically ordered and involved the community celebrating according to their diverse orders, so it wasn't really like a communal meal with everyone 'equal' (which I take to mean doing the same things more or less interchangeably) at all (and neither was the chaburah ritual from which the Last Supper draws its potency)
Ah, I'm afraid I don't know about this ancient liturgical tradition. I was primarily going by 1 Corinthians 11 which seems to speak of a shared meal at which all should have opportunity to eat and drink, even if they aren't able to contribute much themselves to the meal.
Is there anywhere online I can read about the liturgical tradition which you say predates the New Testament?
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Googling, the first description of the Eucharist is found in the writings of Justin Martyr - First Apology Chapter 66 but I think I've read something earlier than this too.
Thanks, Curiosity killed ... Justin Martyr's account seems rather more ritualised than the 1 Cor 11 description of the Eucharist, but then the latter was written maybe 100 years earlier. The question then becomes a matter of what we make of the post-NT accounts and practices; part of God's revelation to his people, or an unfortunate deviation from how things are supposed to be...
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
Some of my friends used to attend a church where, after the sermon, there was a short Q&A session where the congregation could ask questions and ask for points to be expanded - I'm not sure how they controlled the length of it (beyond limiting how many questions to answer) or whether they shortened the sermon to allow time for the questions.
I suppose it depends how much time is allowed for in the sermon, and whether you're on a tight schedule (eg to allow a later service to begin on time)
More thoughts:
In a biggish church (as in, more than ten or so people), it would be hard to have an opportunity for everyone to say something. Some churches have home groups whose programme relates to the sermons in the main Sunday meeting, so that would be an alternative perhaps. Coffee time is a possibility but I don't normally notice people talking about the sermon, rather they catch up on people's news instead.
[ 01. August 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: cheesymarzipan ]
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
Your best bet would be Dix's "Shape of the Liturgy", following up the sources, I'm afraid. It may be available online: the most relevant chapter is The Liturgy and the Eucharistic Action.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
The church certainly ought to provide opportunities for people to share in the ways being discussed here. I really don't think it ought to be in the context of the community's primary worship service, though. Prayer meetings, small groups, house meetings, etc. sound like better ways to accomplish this goal.
An open-mike situation at a service with 200+ people attending would be disastrous. It would be everything I hate about funeral eulogies exponentized, and would provide endless opportunity for those who love hearing themselves speak to talk. Bad idea.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think that discussion over a communal breakfast was part of the original version of the poswtar Parish Communion model in the CofE, wasn't it?
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We used to have a study night once a week, with different topics being discussed each term. But that stopped about two years ago. There has been nothing since, except the yearly Lent group. Due to reasons I haven't been able to fathom, the emphasis during these has been away from discussion and debate towards touchy-feely making things, or tick-box questionnaires. So, at the moment, the Ship is my only source of discussion about interesting topics.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
As I've mentioned elsewhere on the ship, we have a weekly discussion group joined by members of both local churches and visitors, which allows for some quite deep discussions. The lack of conformity (being from different churches and different denominations even within those churches) is both a blessing and a curse, as no area is off-limits but with such a broad range of belief and practice we can find ourselves butting up against some fairly hard disagreements about the place of liturgy, the reliability of scripture, literalism, salvation, predestination, hell, sacraments, faith and works, human sexuality, the structure of the church and so on. The question of how we determine sound doctrine (as opposed to quibbling over words), as recommended (and warned against) in 1 Timothy, really had us stumped!
The group remains, though, no more than perhaps 5-10% of each church's normal Sunday attendance. I don't know whether others aren't willing to have these discussions; don't feel able or secure enough; or simply need some impetus to get involved. I know it was a year before I started attending, and then only at the urging of the minister.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
The question of how we determine sound doctrine (as opposed to quibbling over words), as recommended (and warned against) in 1 Timothy, really had us stumped![/QB]
Your group sounds interesting and fun. However, the kind of discussion that I think is even more edifying (greatly though I love talking about doctrine and theology) is that which focuses on our successes and struggles in trying to follow the way of Jesus. Sharing how we are really doing; where we see our life going over the coming weeks, months and years; being honest with people about our failures and worries.
Of course, that kind of conversation isn't going to happen in a big church gathering or a fairly open-membership discussion group like Arethosemyfeet's. But I think we need to find ways of enabling such conversations, as a regular part of our church activities. In my faith tradition this is the place for home groups, and I know some people have a spiritual director or some kind of other arrangement. However we do it, though, I think it's really important to encourage these conversations - IMO they're a key part of how we encourage each other to greater godliness.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Do other shipmates have experiences to share of when churches manage to give opportunities for people to air their thoughts...
Coffee hour. Vestry. Preservice clergy/acolyte chatter. Flower arranging. Altar Guild. During the pre-meeting meetings and post-meeting meetings. Dratted diocesan convention.
Just about any place two or three are gathered, it seems to me.
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
Our mid-week eucharist is celebrated in the side chapel, with a congregation averaging 8-10 regulars, and the rector often takes the opportunity to deliver an informal and interactive sermon [while seated in a chair], not long, but with solid ideas, and some opportunity for short comment or discussion from the congregation. As we gather for morning tea following, there is the opportunity to take discussion further there if so desired. The informality may horrify some, but it works for those involved.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
the rector often takes the opportunity to deliver an informal and interactive sermon [while seated in a chair],
At the risk of not seeing the wood for the trees, I had thought that only the Bishop praught seated.
Thurible
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
Your best bet would be Dix's "Shape of the Liturgy", following up the sources, I'm afraid. It may be available online: the most relevant chapter is The Liturgy and the Eucharistic Action.
Just remember most of Dix's scholarship has been shown to be flawed.
As current scholarship on the early shape of the Eucharist, I'd suggest Bradshaw's 'Eucharistic Origins' or his 'Search for the Origins of Christian Worship'. Or for something a bit harder work Bradshaw and Johnson 'Eucharistic Liturgies'.
And if you are looking for the earliest example of a eucharistic liturgy, the earliest we have is probably the Didache, though it requires a certain degree of interpretation. (Though it may pre-date the NT - some scholars suggest as early as AD49)
T
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Thanks, Vade Mecum and TomM, but I was hoping for an online introduction really. Something I could read for free that would outline the case for communion in the 1st century being more ritualistic and hierarchical than is suggested by 1 Cor 11 and the other New Testament references. Mind you, I know the Didache is available online and I'll have another look at it now.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
Our mid-week eucharist is celebrated in the side chapel, with a congregation averaging 8-10 regulars, and the rector often takes the opportunity to deliver an informal and interactive sermon [while seated in a chair], not long, but with solid ideas, and some opportunity for short comment or discussion from the congregation.
Sounds fab. Small church is where it's at, IMO - so much more opportunity for genuine engagement with others and for the sharing of our struggles, triumphs, joys, fears, failures etc. Without that sharing, I don't quite see how we can spur each other on to greater works of godliness, which is surely a key purpose of being church together.
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Thanks, Vade Mecum and TomM, but I was hoping for an online introduction really. Something I could read for free that would outline the case for communion in the 1st century being more ritualistic and hierarchical than is suggested by 1 Cor 11 and the other New Testament references. Mind you, I know the Didache is available online and I'll have another look at it now.
Hmm... I'll see what I can find...
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Leo should have written to his bishop to ask for a dispensation, but this might have had a gravely damaging effect on the Supervising Consultant for Missional Metrics in Liturgical Expressions.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Do other shipmates have experiences to share of when churches manage to give opportunities for people to air their thoughts...
Coffee hour. Vestry. Preservice clergy/acolyte chatter. Flower arranging. Altar Guild. During the pre-meeting meetings and post-meeting meetings. Dratted diocesan convention.
Just about any place two or three are gathered, it seems to me.
I am surprised deep conversations get started at such moments. Ours tend to be of the 'How are the grandchildren?' sort.
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If discussion were to be introduced as a regular feature in churches, when and how should it happen?
We Friends have a Monthly Meeting for Business (with wide-ranging topics) in which time and effort is spent in making sure that no one leaves who many have something in mind or on their heart that they need to express.
In fact, the commonly used phrase to end MOnthly Meeting for Business is "Are all minds clear?" Sometimes that has to be asked more than once.
It's not a bad plan, although I know most non-Quaker congregations would not like the no-vote consensus ("sense of the Meeting") model we use for decisions which need to be made.
But not everything discussed at Meeting for Business requires a decision.
sabine
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Leo should have written to his bishop to ask for a dispensation, but this might have had a gravely damaging effect on the Supervising Consultant for Missional Metrics in Liturgical Expressions.
This is a joke, yes? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I just want to be sure, because sometimes what I reckon is pretty darn trivial gets discussed with great seriousness (e.g. the 'which way should the choir face' thread running at the moment!).
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
In fact, the commonly used phrase to end MOnthly Meeting for Business is "Are all minds clear?" Sometimes that has to be asked more than once.
That's a lovely phrase. How marvellously welcoming and inclusive, giving everyone the chance to say what they feel the need to. Can I ask - how often do you get people dominating the meeting or raising things which really aren't relevant / helpful? And when it does happen, how does it get handled?
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I just want to be sure, because sometimes what I reckon is pretty darn trivial gets discussed with great seriousness (e.g. the 'which way should the choir face' thread running at the moment!).
Trivial? (i) The practicalities of organising services of worship and (ii) the way in which the worshipping community should relate to each other and to God in worship, trivial?
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Sorry... I do appreciate the practicalities of such things; e.g. if the choir face this or that way then it'll be hard for everyone to hear them. But the symbolism seems to escape me.
Thurible's comment above about only the Bishop teaching while sitting down is another example; indeed I have a negative reaction to that symbolism as it seems to imply the Bishop is superior in some sense.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Thurible's comment above about only the Bishop teaching while sitting down is another example; indeed I have a negative reaction to that symbolism as it seems to imply the Bishop is superior in some sense.
Not 'superior' (except in a hierarchical sense), but the Bishop is the primary teacher of the faith in his (her) diocese. Hence I suppose it makes sense for the custom being as described. Though I have never seen it: lectures, in the academic style, are usually given standing and so IME are most sermons by bishops. I have seen priests and others sit to give retreat addresses and similar devotional input.
But SCK draws attention to an important fact: however symbolism is intended, it is often perceived as having the opposite meaning. Hence the bishop (or priest, in his absence) coming last in the procession is intended, I assume, to show his humility but often has the reverse effect. Elaborate vestments are supposed to draw attention away from the personality of the priest, but many people read them as symbols of power. Etc etc.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Leo should have written to his bishop to ask for a dispensation, but this might have had a gravely damaging effect on the Supervising Consultant for Missional Metrics in Liturgical Expressions.
This is a joke, yes? I just want to be sure, because sometimes what I reckon is pretty darn trivial gets discussed with great seriousness (e.g. the 'which way should the choir face' thread running at the moment!).
Well, I thought I had been making fun of myself as well as of the current approach to ecclesiastical bureaucracy, which loves titles from management world, but a shipmate has since PM'd me to tell me of someone holding a very similar title. We live in an age where irony can no longer exist!
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Sorry... I do appreciate the practicalities of such things; e.g. if the choir face this or that way then it'll be hard for everyone to hear them. But the symbolism seems to escape me.
Thurible's comment above about only the Bishop teaching while sitting down is another example; indeed I have a negative reaction to that symbolism as it seems to imply the Bishop is superior in some sense.
SCK - speaking as someone much, much further up the candle than you are, I find the discussions on which way the choir should face to be bizarre too! There is a lot of high church ritual that I find important to me, but I'm afraid that has never been one of them. I still rather prefer good congregational singing to choirs though...
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
In fact, the commonly used phrase to end MOnthly Meeting for Business is "Are all minds clear?" Sometimes that has to be asked more than once.
That's a lovely phrase. How marvellously welcoming and inclusive, giving everyone the chance to say what they feel the need to. Can I ask - how often do you get people dominating the meeting or raising things which really aren't relevant / helpful? And when it does happen, how does it get handled?
Everyone is allowed to raise an issue as they are led, but if it doesn't fit with a thread currently under discussion, the Clerk of the Meeting will ask that it wait until later in the Meeting for Business (another topic or even new business). Also, some things can go to committee to be "threshed out" there and then brought back to the Meeting at a later date. If someone is bent on talking at length and not letting the Meeting go forward, it is not uncommon for someone (the Clerk, Member of Ministry and Counsel, or just another person) to gently remind them that they have repeated themselves or that others may want to speak.
I remember one Meeting in which we were discussing a hot button topic with many diverse and passionate viewpoints represented. A man spoke in a somewhat abusive manner, and when another person suggested that he change his tone, he left the Meeting in a state of great distress. It was obvious that something deep and hurtful for him was behind his outburst, so a member of the Meeting went after him to talk privately and possibly find a way to address the personal feelings the man had.
I can't in good conscience say that all Quaker Meetings for Business as wonderful examples of peace and harmony, but our tradition is one that values the fact that each person may have a leading and therefore deserves a chance to speak. Consequently we try our best to make it happen.
Also, since we do not vote, we need to foster an atmosphere which will lead to collaboration and consensus (or a "sense of the Meeting").
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I can't in good conscience say that all Quaker Meetings for Business as wonderful examples of peace and harmony, but our tradition is one that values the fact that each person may have a leading and therefore deserves a chance to speak. Consequently we try our best to make it happen.
Also, since we do not vote, we need to foster an atmosphere which will lead to collaboration and consensus (or a "sense of the Meeting").
Sounds really good to me. More 'real' than meetings / services where the only participation is joining in with what others have already prepared. Of course, as you say, it won't always go smoothly and as planned, but IMO God is fine with that...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
I have fond memories of a church in the southern hemisphere - most welcoming and charming - I counted nearly 20 souls - including 2 young families. After the service (which was held in a ballroom - its a small, persecuted group) the entire congregation repaired to the pub. And then were invited to Mrs X's for lunch (for which they have a roster system) - sort of pot-luck - then drinks or coffee - board games and talks - after which tea was served. By the end of which, the priest had sunk into an armchair snoring - they had to wake him up. Otherwise we would have missed evensong. I really miss that lot. They really gave the impression of a true community.
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
Posts: 157 | From: The Kingdom of Fife | Registered: Nov 2007
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
[QUOTE]Coffee hour. Vestry. Preservice clergy/acolyte chatter. Flower arranging. Altar Guild. During the pre-meeting meetings and post-meeting meetings. Dratted diocesan convention.
Just about any place two or three are gathered, it seems to me.
This can be very dangerous as it's a real breeding ground for gossip. If communication is to be effective it should be between the greatest number of people, involving the lowest levels of secrecy and the widest possible involvement.
Unless of course, it really is about your grandchildren etc and personal. If it's about church life, bring the discussion into that life - and probably the only way to do that is a sensitively led whole church forum or meeting.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I would just like to point out that the above quote was not by me, but The Silent Acolyte.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I would just like to point out that the above quote was not by me, but The Silent Acolyte.
oops apologies! Forgive me Chorister. Not very bright today at sorting quotes .....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Do other shipmates have experiences to share of when churches manage to give opportunities for people to air their thoughts...
Coffee hour. Vestry. Preservice clergy/acolyte chatter. Flower arranging. Altar Guild. During the pre-meeting meetings and post-meeting meetings. Dratted diocesan convention.
Just about any place two or three are gathered, it seems to me.
I am surprised deep conversations get started at such moments. Ours tend to be of the 'How are the grandchildren?' sort.
I had a theological conversation over coffee today, though it was with a shipmate so maybe it doesn't count...
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Some of our best discussions happen at or after daily Morning Prayer....we use the Franciscan (SSF) Daily Office, on which Common Worship's MP and EP were based (IIRC)....
There's time, before the Office, to bring up any urgent matters for prayer, and, after the Office, to discuss the readings, or any issues of faith that might arise. This is often done in the context of (Fairtrade) coffee and toast at our local community centre café!
tangent alert/
It saddens me that our local Franciscan Novice Master (and a past Area Minister), a fellow Reader, and a regular member of our congregation at Mass, sees fit not to join us at this service, telling us that he is so disciplined in the faith as not to need to join in communal prayer....... end of tangent
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I had a theological conversation over coffee today, though it was with a shipmate so maybe it doesn't count...
Carys
Your church is rather special, Carys. I seem to remember at one time it held the record for the church with the greatest number of shipmates in the congregation. That disposes it towards being a great place for theological discussion already!
I think in my town more theology gets talked about in the pub than in church. Well that's the excuse the vicar uses, anyway! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Theology doesn't really get talked about at my church (not even over coffee, probably at Lenten small groups but I have not attended these as yet) and I'm trying to pin down why. We're relaxed A-C, AffCath but the Dead Horses are barely mentioned, mostly aged 50+, white and working-class - and about 45 adults altogether. We do a lot together as a congregation and we're very close-knit, but it's all doing and not talking. Doing is good but I wish we could talk a bit more!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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womanspeak
Shipmate
# 15394
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Posted
A parish I know used to hold Bible Studies at a time when the vicar was not available so that they could hold discussions. He was, and I believe still is not a good listener, but rather sermonises continually.
It is sad when a person of great knowledge and experience can not participate in generous discussion - the too and fro - which demonstrates genuine interest in the views of the flock. Concern for genuine relationships based not on role and position but on appreciation and respect for the full range of the gifts and needs of the gathered community, is more important than academic lecturing.
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from the bush
Posts: 62 | From: rural australia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by womanspeak:
It is sad when a person of great knowledge and experience can not participate in generous discussion - the too and fro - which demonstrates genuine interest in the views of the flock. Concern for genuine relationships based not on role and position but on appreciation and respect for the full range of the gifts and needs of the gathered community, is more important than academic lecturing.
Possibly, although frankly I'd far rather listen to a decent lecture than a load of uninformed wittering, which is all to often what "discussion" turns out to be.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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