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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Racism: Let's Talk.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Between the Zimmerman thread and the Oprah thread, I think we should have a thread about racism without a specific incident to cloud the issue.
Let us start with a definition.
Racism is prejudice based upon the notion that characteristics are inherent in one's "Race".
- Some would add that this must contain a negative view to be considered racism.
- Some would add that only oppressor groups can be racist.
(Personally, I do not accept either addition. A attribution of a characteristic based upon race is racism and something can be racist irrespective of direction.)
I would like to discuss several things.
- Racism in general
- Racism and You. What effects you have seen.
- Who is responsible for changing racism?
- Why is Racism still such a problem?
Why? Because there is an obvious disconnect demonstrated on this board. I am hoping to increase understanding.
Study sheets for those wishing.
Racism in America.
Racism in the UK.
Racism in Canada.
Racism in Australia.
[ 13. November 2013, 20:55: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I was brought up in 1960s South Africa so I saw awful, institutionalised racism daily. My Dad worked in SOWETO and broke the law all the time (when he was stopped he pretended he'd just arrived from England and pleaded ignorance, promising to never do it again - it worked every time)
Because of this I have a very strong radar for racism. I have seen it decline considerably here in the UK over the last 30 years - but it still exists.
I haven't heard the "I'm not racist but ... " words for ages now. The 'but' is always followed by a racist comment.
When I hear such comments I start a conversation as to why they would think that, it helps folks to think through their assumptions.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Let us start with a definition.
Racism is prejudice based upon the notion that characteristics are inherent in one's "Race".
- Some would add that this must contain a negative view to be considered racism.
- Some would add that only oppressor groups can be racist.
(Personally, I do not accept either addition. A attribution of a characteristic based upon race is racism and something can be racist irrespective of direction.)
I would add to your definition that racism does not have to be a conscious action, and can be a result of an ingrained or learned bias.
The studies done in the US and Canada that showed having a "black" or "ethnic" sounding name on a CV identical to one with a "white" name was a significant disadvantage in getting an interview - there are signs of the same in the UK as well BBC News - Workplace Discrimination
That is obviously a manifestation of racism, even if on an individual basis the hiring managers do not consider themselves racist.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I see a surprising amount of racism with the young people I work with.
Within schools it is reportable and tends to be dealt with pretty severely. We had to talk a girl with learning difficulties out of a day's suspension when she'd retaliated following prolonged abuse and name calling: thick, moron, special, and called her tormentor "Paki" as the worst insult she could summon up. It wasn't true, he was of Turkish or Greek heritage. She was given a day in isolation instead.
Currently I work with a student who is very anti-Asian - a knock on from his brother being chased out of an Asian area by a group of men with weapons. That one seems to be a generalisation from a specific incident, which I've seen before.
And then you get the sort of racism that's drummed up by the Daily Fail. So anti-immigrant generally.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Within schools it is reportable and tends to be dealt with pretty severely. We had to talk a girl with learning difficulties out of a day's suspension when she'd retaliated following prolonged abuse and name calling: thick, moron, special, and called her tormentor "Paki" as the worst insult she could summon up. It wasn't true, he was of Turkish or Greek heritage. She was given a day in isolation instead.
Did anything happen to the person/people who called someone with a learning disability a "moron"?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Yes, that's why we argued it out: that she was using her somewhat limited language skills to retaliate against some pretty unpleasant name-calling and that there were two sides to this incident. We argued that perpetrator should not be allowed to play the racism card and get away with the name-calling that triggered her response. Removing the day's exclusion meant that she didn't get that on her education record, but the internal exclusion meant that racism was seen to be tackled.
Can't remember what happened to the boy, but he was left in no doubt that he had triggered the comment and his behaviour was unacceptable.
eta - I can type, honest
[ 13. August 2013, 08:48: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
People in general seem to regard the definition of racist as "a bit more prejudiced about race than I, myself, am" and of course by that definition nobody sees themselves as racist. I overheard a conversation in a swimming pool changing room when I was a kid. It was between two older white women and the gist was: "I don't think these darkies should be over here in this country. They're savages and they ruin everything. But I'm not racist or anything. I don't HATE them. I don't think they should DIE. I just think they should have stayed in Africa." Now, obviously this woman is horribly racist, whatever she may think. But that was my first experience of the "racism starts at a bit more prejudiced than I, myself am" viewpoint, which is why "I'm not racist but -" is such a common phrase. If you take people's own understanding of themselves, nobody's racist.
I suspect that much of the racism that goes around in society today is at a subconscious level. It creeps into assumptions about the young black man walking down the street at night, or interpretations of job applications (nothing as straightforward as "I'm not going to hire a brown person", but maybe something more of a pause on discovering this about a person. Or someone feeling that they'd rather see a white GP, but without really being able to articulate why.
People are going round making a thousand little assumptions about others they don't know, or barely know, every day. It saves a lot of mental effort and everyone does it to some extent. Our culture shakes what those assumptions are likely to entail, and our culture contains strains of racist bullshit everywhere, which creep into our minds. Most people are not hateful, or violent, and most people really don't want to be racist. But it is these little assumptions that can add up to entire demographics being marginalised for no good reason, and then, because nobody defines themselves as racist, they get told that they're imagining it because racism no longer exists.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I suspect that much of the racism that goes around in society today is at a subconscious level.
Yes, absolutely. That's why this kind of discussion is always useful.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I too am very conscious of racism and all kinds of prejudice having witnessed it from an early age. I find one of the tests to weed out our own prejudices is to ask whether we would trust someone whatever their origin. If we couldn't tell their race unless they spoke, might we change our minds once they had?
Someone recently told me he didn't want to leave his case at a left luggage station as he thought the attendant would rifle through it.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Yes. Though perhaps this thread is preaching to the converted or the trying.
We all know how to behave on the surface, our observable behaviour. Internal attitudes and thought processes are another matter. It is much easier to have internal processes match the external if you've examined them, and I don't think most people examine them very much.
There are also habits, of things carefully taught in subtle ways during growing up years. You've got to carefully taught (youtube, South Pacific) quote:
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.
[ 13. August 2013, 13:28: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Yes. Though perhaps this thread is preaching to the converted or the trying.
Given some of the responses on the two threads mentioned in the OP, and others over the years, I do not think so.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
We all know how to behave on the surface, our observable behaviour. Internal attitudes and thought processes are another matter. It is much easier to have internal processes match the external if you've examined them, and I don't think most people examine them very much.
The last sentence in this quote rings very true.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
I heard the "I'm not racist but " comment today. Bear in mind that this is a racially and ethnically mixed area where 40% are non British.
How do we address racism within communities, that's often tribal? How do we address racism towards "whites"?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would like to discuss several things.
- Racism in general
- Racism and You. What effects you have seen.
- Who is responsible for changing racism?
- Why is Racism still such a problem?
Rascism in general: Here the rural American South, rascism is alive and well and not going away any time soon. We basically have three ethnic/racial groups in the area. Black, white and Mexican. Each group overtly and covertly expresses rascist opinions about each of the groups and everyone hates the couple from Mumbai who own the local convenience store.
I have noticed that the rascism, in any direction, is usually from the folks in the lower socio-economic brackets. The thinking seems to go along the lines of "I don't have a job because those {insert other group here} take them all." Which is complete hogwash, but there you have it.
Rascism and You - I have been openly criticized for allowing people of any skin color or ethnicity or sexual orientation to drink in my bar. It's fairly well established locally that unless you are lily white, you don't go into certain beer joints. Ever. Period. This attitude boggles my mind because I can't understand why any business owner would turn away cold hard cash - which is ALWAYS the right color - just because the person wanting to spend it happens to be a different shade. And FWIW, the only trouble I've ever had at the bar has been with drunk little white boys who can't hold their liquor.
Who is responsible for changing racism - We all are. And it's difficult, and it's scary sometimes. When everyone around you seems to think that rascism is not just OK, but normal, it feels a little lonely and daunting to speak up and tell them that it's neither. Add in the fact that I'm a liberal college-educated damn yankee and it's an even tougher row to hoe.
Why is rascism still such a problem? - Around here, at least, I think it is the culturally ingrained attitudes that folks here grew up with. I have listened to older people talk lovingly about the days when a black man, on meeting a white woman on the sidewalk, had to step off the curb, doff his cap and lower his eyes. It's still part of the common culture is these parts and I'm not sure that's going to change any time soon.
Add in a lousy local economy, rampant drug problems, and sub-par education and you get a festering mess of despair and anger. It's far easier to be angry at someone who doesn't look like you. It's easier to blame the other than it is to boot-strap yourself up and try to make things better.
Long winded response, YMMV.
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
People in general seem to regard the definition of racist as "a bit more prejudiced about race than I, myself, am" and of course by that definition nobody sees themselves as racist.
I think this is very insightful.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
How do we address racism towards "whites"?
Reduce the oppression* of non-whites and I think we see a decrease in this.
*Yeah, oppression is a might strong in some cases, but not certain the proper word for a lesser form.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I know a few people who admit to being racists. Its quite refreshing really. They are racists of course, but not particularly much more racist than some of their friends who won;t admit to it.
I'm afraid I hear "I'm not a racist but..>" (or words to that effect) very often. Maybe not every day, bt certainly every week.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
I am male, stale and pale, and have lived in racist communities and also experienced racism against myself and my family. I feel there is a problem when discussing racism because what is often going on is a reaction not to differences in race, but differences in cultural norms whereby accepted behaviour in one culture is not necessarily accepted in another.
Thus I freely admit I am 'behaviourist'. That means there are some behaviours I prefer not to tolerate. As a fairly safe example, let's take litter. There seem to be cultural norms regarding taking your litter home. Some types of people throw anything onto the street, some don't. If the school-children along my road seem to be the main culprits, does that make me ageist? I think not, I just prefer people who don't litter and I dissapprove of those who do.
Now, I have a friend in the bathroom fitting trade who refuses to do work for people of an certain (presumed) ethnic nature. This is because he has had repeated difficulties in getting paid for the work he has done. His observation is that there are certain types of people who are good customers (they pay on time and as agreed) and there are types of people who include those who are difficult customers (they don't pay on time and often don't pay the agreed rate). It seems this example is to do with cultural norms - it's the way business is generally done in one culture or another. My friend argues that he isn't racist, and I'm not sure he is, but he is certainly 'behaviourist' in that he tries to select out potential customers based on his past experience.
Other examples I could cite as cultural norms include queueing, spitting, courtesy on the road, bartering, attitudes to women, dress codes...the list is long, and some things are more tolerable than others.
I think that a lot of the times I hear people say "I'm not racist but...." there is a strong element of dissonance in cultural norms, or 'behaviourism' behind it. ISTM that when there is a clash of acceptable behaviours and interactions there can be tension, and unless these things are dealt with, the tension may possibly break out into racism.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
A test is to see if any of these "behaviourist" traits the speaker does not like are ever expressed about "native" UK residents. If it is only towards the brown and the immigrant...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
I'm not racist, but....
Seriously, I have formed certain biases about certain ethnic groups. I am not proud of this fact, but it's true. These biases are much stronger now than when I was a teenager, and they are stronger for having lived in areas with very high levels of immigration.
Now, let me say immediately that these biases are based on cultural discrepancies, not alleged 'racial' ones. Let me also say immediately that I'm actually quite liberal on immigration, and strongly oppose the current government's policies of reducing it.
However, I find certain behaviours of certain cultures absolutely maddening. First and foremost being the Chinese, or rather than Mainland Chinese (friends of mine who are Hong from Hong Kong, Malayasia, and Singapore note the same things). Broadly speaking, 'Mainlanders' (to adopt a Hong Konger phrase) tend to be the least friendly and rudest people I have ever met in my life. There are, of course, honourable exceptions (I can certainly think of a few off the top of my head, at least some of whom agree with me about their compatriots), but their behaviour of Chinese visitors, particularly in groups, is maddening for me and, I imagine, to most British people.
Much of this must be the result of different cultural expectations, and mutual misunderstanding. Perhaps in Beijing scowling at people on the street, pushing and cutting queues aren't seen as rude.
I will, however, add that the groups of people I find nearly as rude and inconsiderate as Mainland Chinese are more diverse: Russians and Eastern Europeans, Germans of a certain age (young Germans are much better and Bavarians better than the rest of country), elderly French women (particularly if in positions of petty authority), Indian bachelors, middle class people from Southern England (especially if also middle aged), New Yorkers.
People I have found to be generally polite and friendly: the Irish, the Spanish and Italians, the Greeks, Scots and people from Northern England, working class people from Southern England (and actually also very posh English people as well), Indian women and married men, people from the Caribbean, French people not falling into the aforementioned category, and people from areas of the United States other than New York.
That's all based on anecdotal, but fairly wide-ranging evidence. It probably says nothing about other people, but I'm sure it says something about me.
[ 13. August 2013, 16:31: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Surely racism is merely a particular instance of the general phenomenon of otherism, i.e. my tendency to dislike anyone who isn't me? Otherism has a further tendency to group the "others" into definable categories. If it can fit its dislikes into a racial category, then it does. If it can fit its dislikes into categories based on sex, sexuality, relgion, age, disability, politics, or whatever, then it does that too.
But however it manifests, it always comes back to the annoying fact that the rest of the world Isn't Like Me.
(It is, of course, arguable that the reason I don't like anyone who isn't me, is because I don't like me.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
I find the "taking our jobs" thing interesting in the UK. To my mind, that is not necessarily a racist attitude. It is true that there are various problems here which are exacerbated by overcrowding: housing shortages, job shortages, strains on various parts of the infrastructure. One seemingly simple solution to this is to cut or slow down the rate of growth of the population, so closing the borders is to some a no-brainer. Is that sort of nationalism really racist or just a failure to grasp the finer points of economics?
I should add, that I myself do not hold this view as the problems some think would be solved by having fewer immigrants can be solved in more creative ways and in fact we need to import some skills and indeed have a duty to care for those fleeing persecution etc. but I do know a number of people who think this way without regarding non Brits as inferior, just as not belonging here.
Perhaps the test would be to say do anti racists necessarily have to believe in free migration for all, across all countries?
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
There's a lot of talk about immigration and foreign cultures in regards to the UK.
That doesn't explain why the Met has a problem with institutional racism, or why an ethnic name with the same qualifications doesn't get an interview, or why black British parents complain that their sons are geared towards sport and music instead of academic subjects in schools, or why Oxford rejects more ethnic minority students predicted top A-Levels compared to white students.
Metropolitan Police race failings
Oxford ethnic minority applications
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
That is obviously a manifestation of racism, even if on an individual basis the hiring managers do not consider themselves racist.
I'm not sure that's the whole story. In the article to which you link, a young lady called Jorden wasn't getting invited to interview until she started using her middle name, Elizabeth, instead. But as she herself said, "I did not really understand this seeing as my name isn't stereotypically 'ethnic'" - and certainly I don't think I could infer anything about her racial background from the name "Jorden".
It is, however, not the conventional spelling of the name "Jordan", and whilst "misspelled" names don't say much about racial background, they do correlate strongly with the class and educational background of the person's parents.
In other words, "Elizabeth" is a nice middle-class girl, whereas "Jorden" is a chav.
I'm not trying to pretend that racism doesn't exist - of course it does, and some of the other examples in that article are clearly racist - but I don't think that racial discrimination tells the whole story - there is also discrimination based on social class and background (which also has a correlation with race, so you can get a result that appears "racist" without any actual race-based discrimination).
Fryer and Levitt have an interesting analysis here. One of their findings is that there is no difference in the life outcomes of black children given "black" names - Demetrius, Lamarcus and so on - and similar children given neutral or "white" names, but that in recent years the giving of "black" names has become strongly correlated with socio-economic status (ie. middle-class black families give their children the same kinds of names as middle-class white families, whereas poor black families tend to pick the distinctively black names).
This doesn't preclude racism - a racist employer who doesn't bother to invite Tanequa for an interview would probably find some other excuse to not hire the black Tracy that he did invite to interview.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
This doesn't preclude racism - a racist employer who doesn't bother to invite Tanequa for an interview would probably find some other excuse to not hire the black Tracy that he did invite to interview.
Not of necessity. There are varying degrees if racism. One who might invite Tracy in the presumption she is white might be persuaded by the interview to hire.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beautiful Dreamer
Shipmate
# 10880
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Racism is prejudice based upon the notion that characteristics are inherent in one's "Race".
- Some would add that this must contain a negative view to be considered racism.
- Some would add that only oppressor groups can be racist.
(Personally, I do not accept either addition. A attribution of a characteristic based upon race is racism and something can be racist irrespective of direction.)
I agree with you re: additions. I've known people who insist that people in minority groups can't be prejudiced (or that any such prejudices are justified)...I don't buy it. I might see things differently if I weren't white, though. I don't know.
quote:
I would like to discuss several things.
- Racism in general
- Racism and You. What effects you have seen.
- Who is responsible for changing racism?
- Why is Racism still such a problem?
Why? Because there is an obvious disconnect demonstrated on this board. I am hoping to increase understanding.
I'm from the same part of the country as BessHiggs. I grew up in North Carolina and live outside Atlanta now. I *will* say that people in the 'big city' here tend to be less prejudiced, but that could be because so many of us are 'transplants'. In high school, I lived in a somewhat-rural area where there were blacks and whites...that's it. I heard some pretty sickening attitudes from both groups.
As for my experience-Has anyone here ever falsely been accused of/assumed to be racist? I'm a white girl who was incredibly shy in school, which netted me the labels of 'snob','bitch' and 'racist' on several occasions. I remember when I was on the flag corp (with band) in high school, some of the black girls thought that I was racist because I hung around one of the few white girls in the group more than the rest of them...what they didn't seem to notice was that that girl took me under her wing while some of the others could care less. It had nothing to do with race. The same thing happened with my first-year college roommate's boyfriend, although at least he was upfront with me. I can understand where they're coming from, but I kind of wish they'd bothered to find out what was *really* going on with me before making that assumption.
As for who's responsible for ending racism, I'd agree that it's all of us. I guess one of the best ways to do this is to teach our children not to discriminate...that's what my parents taught me, and they were from 1940s-50s North Carolina and Arkansas! That's one reason I don't accept being old as an excuse for being racist-if anything, my parents were *anti*-racist.
I agree with Bess that some people hold onto racism because it's convenient. That, and they just don't care enough to change their minds.
Sorry if I went on too long!
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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
Posts: 6028 | From: Outside Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not of necessity. There are varying degrees if racism. One who might invite Tracy in the presumption she is white might be persuaded by the interview to hire.
Possibly - but I'd imagine that would be an employer who had negative stereotypical impressions of black people because he hadn't ever really spoken to an actual black person, if merely having a good interview is sufficient to dispel his prejudices. (And note that the Fryer and Levitt paper found no difference in the career outcomes of Tanequa and her neighbour Tracy, which suggests that this kind of employer is quite rare.)
One of the other examples in the article seekingsister referred to was of employers assuming that Muslim women (who often have both identifiable names and identifiable dress) are going to quit work when they marry and/or have children.
In my (fairly limited) experience, this assumption is made most strongly by Muslim men, which adds an extra interesting wrinkle to the racism discussion - this is certainly racist discrimination, because it involves treating a person (the Muslim woman) as an interchangeable stereotype rather than as an individual, but is is performed by members of her own race.
Or what about black people calling each other "Oreos" and accusing each other of "acting white" - isn't that racist, too?
If we are discussing which forms of racism have the strongest effect, then racism by a dominant "oppressor group" against a disempowered race has to be the most important, because of the structural disparities in power involved, but that doesn't mean that the assumption that little Jaideep is going to be a good student and grow up to be a doctor or dentist is less racist.
[ 13. August 2013, 21:39: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Bear in mind that this is a racially and ethnically mixed area where 40% are non British.
"Non-British"...that is to say "non-white"? Or do the British non-whites not count as being non-white? Or, of course, perhaps the British non-whites don't count as British.
Enlight us, pray.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Bear in mind that this is a racially and ethnically mixed area where 40% are non British.
"Non-British"...that is to say "non-white"? Or do the British non-whites not count as being non-white? Or, of course, perhaps the British non-whites don't count as British.
Enlight us, pray.
John
I remember a conversation I had with a stranger where I told her I was from Alaska, and she asked if there were many other Americans up there. I informed her that Alaska was part of America and almost everyone who lived there was American. I got a 'yeah, but you know what I mean' kinda response.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I do think it's important to differentiate between full-on racism and ethnocentrism. An inherent feeling that you're better than everyone else because of your ethnicity is IMO different than hating other people because of their ethnicity.
When I lived in Turkey I'm sure many of the locals viewed me as odd, hell-bound, inferior, or out of place. (All of which may be true, I suppose ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ) However, I didn't encounter many people that treated me with visible disdain because I wasn't Turk.
On the other hand, when I lived in rural Alaska I was probably viewed as normal, equal, of similar religious mind, and as one who more or less fit in. Many of the Natives still hated me because I was white. This is understandable to an extent considering our respective histories, but I was amazed at the number of people who blamed me personally (not my race, not my ancestors, etc) for their loss of culture, for their alcoholism, or for whatever problem they might be currently dealing with.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
That's all based on anecdotal, but fairly wide-ranging evidence. It probably says nothing about other people, but I'm sure it says something about me.
So, now that you've noticed these trends, how do they affect your conduct when you meet someone new? If you know they're Chinese / French / Polish or whatever, you you initially treat them as if you expect them to fit the preconception, or do you wait and see what they're actually like?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Surely racism is merely a particular instance of the general phenomenon of otherism, i.e. my tendency to dislike anyone who isn't me?
The thing is, some people's "otherism" is structurally supported in our societies and has a lot of power behind it. White racism and black racism (or Asian or Latino etc) are not merely flip sides of the same coin.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
White racism and black racism (or Asian or Latino etc) are not merely flip sides of the same coin.
But they can be, depending on where you are.
Anyone who lives and works outside the West becomes skeptical about implicit assumptions of the uniqueness of the West's alleged prejudice and bigotry.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... Anyone who lives and works outside the West becomes skeptical about implicit assumptions of the uniqueness of the West's alleged prejudice and bigotry.
I don't think anyone here has assumed that only Western culture is racist (and sexist). I think we're focusing on Western culture because a) we live here, and b) we're directly responsible. Other cultures - well, we can lead by example and / or persuade, which, again, is our responsibility. Any more than that gets into international relations, issues of sovereignty, cross-cultural communication, etc.
We could discuss racism in other cultures, but most of us would be discussing something which we have no direct experience or knowledge of (and maybe never will).
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The divisions where I live in western Canada are: white with unaccented English, eastern European with accented English (Ukrainian mostly, some German-Mennonite-Russian), First Nations (Cree, Dakota/Nakota and Dene). In this order of "betterness". With the First Nations groups being the most discriminated against. It is rather clear that the accent is the identifying marker, with the skin colour being secondary if the person speaks "properly". I think higher education is responsible for the acquisition of mainstream accent, and the denigration of people for their differences starts to drop away as that happens.
Black peoples are not really on the radar. I recall when the university program I attended was going for accreditation with an American organization in the 1970s that a woman self declared herself as black in support of the diversity part of it, and it had never occurred to me to consider her as anything other than "us" or mainstream. Which made me consider that one's self definition is also very important. And where does where "race" stop and "ethnicity" start?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
And where does where "race" stop and "ethnicity" start?
Given that race is more a social construct than a useful designation, this is not an easy thing to separate.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Anyone who lives and works outside the West becomes skeptical about implicit assumptions of the uniqueness of the West's alleged prejudice and bigotry.
It isn't unique in its existence, but certainly is in impact.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
And where does where "race" stop and "ethnicity" start?
Given that race is more a social construct than a useful designation, this is not an easy thing to separate.
"Race" is, in practice, phenotype - it's a set of physical characteristics that are typical of people with a particular ancestral background.
"Ethnicity" is more like with what social/cultural heritage does a person identify - it's more about how someone sees themselves than about how others see them.
I don't think this is quite right, but it's along the right lines.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
"Race" is, in practice, phenotype - it's a set of physical characteristics that are typical of people with a particular ancestral background.
Well, no. Two organisms with the same genotype can exhibit different phenotype.
Saw a snippet of a programme in which ancestry was traced. An a averagely pale, clearly white woman and a medium dark, obviously black man were receiving their results.
Guess which had more sub-Saharan ancestry.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
How do we address racism towards "whites"?
Reduce the oppression* of non-whites and I think we see a decrease in this.
*Yeah, oppression is a might strong in some cases, but not certain the proper word for a lesser form.
Ok ... at what point in the reduction does racism towards "whites" stop?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Bear in mind that this is a racially and ethnically mixed area where 40% are non British.
"Non-British"...that is to say "non-white"? Or do the British non-whites not count as being non-white? Or, of course, perhaps the British non-whites don't count as British.
Enlight us, pray.
John
Sorry not clear enough - 40% of the people who live in this borough locality do not have the UK as their country of origin as defined by the state.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
That's all based on anecdotal, but fairly wide-ranging evidence. It probably says nothing about other people, but I'm sure it says something about me.
So, now that you've noticed these trends, how do they affect your conduct when you meet someone new? If you know they're Chinese / French / Polish or whatever, you you initially treat them as if you expect them to fit the preconception, or do you wait and see what they're actually like?
Yes, in that I grit my teeth if I have to be in a shop with half a dozen mainland Chinese, and that German authority figures (police, ticket inspectors, museum guards) frighten me much more than their English (let alone Irish) counterparts. But in terms of individuals with whom I might interact professionally or socially, it's much less likely to be an issue. Mind you, given that I live in the UK and the economic sector I in which I work, the people with whom I'm most likely to interact are youngish, middle-class, university graduates. So, it's probably a case of one set of prejudices taking priority over the other (although it is also true that cultural differences tend to be less pronounced in that group than amongst older or less educated social groups).
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
White racism and black racism (or Asian or Latino etc) are not merely flip sides of the same coin.
But they can be, depending on where you are.
Anyone who lives and works outside the West becomes skeptical about implicit assumptions of the uniqueness of the West's alleged prejudice and bigotry.
There is a dramatic difference between discrimination against white expats in China or the Middle East, and apartheid South Africa or Jim Crow United States.
The world's most powerful countries institutionalized racism against Africans, Native Americans, and Asians through colonialism and empire, and exported that racism throughout the world. Let's put this into context here.
Europe is largely unmatched in this type of behaviour, whether one wants to accept it or not. Most other racism you find in the world is tribalism or sectarianism, rather than a political, social and economic structure based on subjugating certain people due to their physical appearance. Yes it happened elsewhere, but not on the scale achieved by colonial Europe.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
discrimination against white expats in China
A less trivial and parochial, and more informed, example would be discrimination by Han Chinese against other groups such as Uighurs.
quote:
Europe is largely unmatched in this type of behaviour, whether one wants to accept it or not. Most other racism you find in the world is tribalism or sectarianism
Given that tribalism, sectarianism, casteism etc are just as irrational and unjust as racism, there is not much point in drawing distinctions between them, and you can find all of them, along with imperialism and subjugation on various scales, throughout the world and at all periods of history.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
discrimination against white expats in China
A less trivial and parochial, and more informed, example would be discrimination by Han Chinese against other groups such as Uighurs.
quote:
Europe is largely unmatched in this type of behaviour, whether one wants to accept it or not. Most other racism you find in the world is tribalism or sectarianism
Given that tribalism, sectarianism, casteism etc are just as irrational and unjust as racism, there is not much point in drawing distinctions between them, and you can find all of them, along with imperialism and subjugation on various scales, throughout the world and at all periods of history.
My point is that racism experienced by minorities in the West is backed by institutions that go back centuries and are deeply embedded into the culture and psyche.
I responded to a point that the West isn't "more racist" than the rest of the world because European travel to non-white countries and face racism as well. I fail to see how this is any different from the way Spanish people view British expats, who are ostensibly the same race. It's ethnicity/tribalism/otherism, not racism as an institution. Wrong - of course it is. Equivalent to racism as it exists in Europe? No - not at all.
In Europe and North American the legacy of racist institutions remain and therefore the racism experienced by minorities on those places cannot simply be compared to the type of "don't trust the guy who's not from around here" behaviour that can be found anywhere.
There is a tendency for some to try and explain away the racism in their own societies by suggesting that "everyone does it." No one else has done it like Europe has unfortunately (and by extension Europe's colonies with race issues like the US, South Africa, Brazil, etc). And God willing no one else ever will.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
My point is that racism experienced by minorities in the West is backed by institutions that go back centuries and are deeply embedded into the culture and psyche.
Look up the Indian Caste system sometime.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
My point is that racism experienced by minorities in the West is backed by institutions that go back centuries and are deeply embedded into the culture and psyche.
I responded to a point that the West isn't "more racist" than the rest of the world because European travel to non-white countries and face racism as well. I fail to see how this is any different from the way Spanish people view British expats, who are ostensibly the same race. It's ethnicity/tribalism/otherism, not racism as an institution. Wrong - of course it is. Equivalent to racism as it exists in Europe? No - not at all.
In Europe and North American the legacy of racist institutions remain and therefore the racism experienced by minorities on those places cannot simply be compared to the type of "don't trust the guy who's not from around here" behaviour that can be found anywhere.
There is a tendency for some to try and explain away the racism in their own societies by suggesting that "everyone does it." No one else has done it like Europe has unfortunately (and by extension Europe's colonies with race issues like the US, South Africa, Brazil, etc). And God willing no one else ever will.
It really isn't difficult to find examples of wholesale racist treatment of peoples that have been on the same scale as White Western Racism in terms of scale or duration. That's not to excuse WWR in any way, but just to add context.
You don't need to turn to the ancient world or the Old Testament either, although many examples are to be found there. The treatment of non-Han is a good example, just less familiar to us. Discrimination against sub-Saharan Africans by north Africans is comparable to WWR in scale and history, from the traditional use of central Africans as slaves to the violent discrimination against dark skinned Africans in modern day Libya. The treatment of Asian migrant workers in the Middle East both historically and currently is large-scale, longstanding and overtly institutional. Liberian law refuses citizenship to people who have lived there for generations because they are not of black African descent and appearance. Biharis who live in Bangladesh are overtly prejudiced on racial grounds; the law forbids many older members of that community to vote for instance. Have a look at the treatment of bushmen in Botswana and pygmy peoples in Congo for 21st century examples of brutal physical abuse of groups of people on racial grounds that is officially sanctioned and authorised.
I repeat that none of these examples, or any of the others I might have added is to excuse WWR, only to cast doubt on the proposition that it is uniquely wicked.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
My point is that racism experienced by minorities in the West is backed by institutions that go back centuries and are deeply embedded into the culture and psyche.
Look up the Indian Caste system sometime.
You're proving my point, which was in response to a suggestion that white people face racism abroad too and so therefore everyone is racist.
Systemic racism or ethnic subjugation cannot be compared to general xenophobia or otherism that almost all expats with a different physical appearance go through. They are on a different scale.
I have never heard any European accept that the racism they exported around the world is as bad as the caste system, so I'm glad to see you make the comparison.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage
Liberian law refuses citizenship to people who have lived there for generations because they are not of black African descent and appearance.
People of Korean descent are not allowed to become Japanese citizens although their families have been in Japan more than a century. This is especially unfair because at the time the Koreans immigrated, Japan was ruling Korea and deliberately destroyed the Korean economy. People had to leave Korea to find jobs.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
You're proving my point, which was in response to a suggestion that white people face racism abroad too and so therefore everyone is racist.
I thought your point was that nobody else is racist, just white westerners.
quote:
Systemic racism or ethnic subjugation cannot be compared to general xenophobia or otherism that almost all expats with a different physical appearance go through. They are on a different scale.
And yet when general xenophobia or otherism occurs in the west it's always given the "racism" tag. One rule for one, another for the rest?
quote:
I have never heard any European accept that the racism they exported around the world is as bad as the caste system, so I'm glad to see you make the comparison.
That's a rather backhanded way of agreeing that people other than whites can be hideously racist (rather than just xenophobic or otherist), but I'll take it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'm not racist, but I'm learning.
Why do I feel like this thread is a trap for some of us to voice opinions that will quickly be disissed as irrelevant utterances coming from white privilege?
I was raised in unusual circumstances that brought me to my teens completely colorblind. My parents had black friends who came to visit but they were always referred to by their names, never their race, and, although I probably noticed that they all had dark skin I just took that to be a family trait like the family of redheads who also came to visit. I never heard any mention of race at my school, either, it was entirely white. West Virginia is one of the whitest states as well as one of the poorest. When I was growing up I lived a few miles from the poorest town in America. Kids came to school barefooted in the snow and lived in shacks with no water or heat. That's why I laugh when I hear about my background of white privilege.
I finally heard about race classification and America's shameful history of slavery and I was truly horrified but I remained colorblind and for years I couldn't say after meeting someone whether they were black or white.
I started college in 1964. Some of the men I dated were black and I was amazed at the hateful reaction of other people from both races. I was drooped from a sorority over it but didn't really care. It was exciting times and I joined marches for civil rights and worked for equality for all people.
Years passed and things changed for the better. I saw schools integrated and black people in high position in businesses and banks, starring in movies, winning Oscars, gracing the covers of magazines. I knew there was lots of progress still to be made and that's why I voted for affirmative action and anything else that I hoped would push full equality forward.
Then things stared to change in a way I didn't understand. Black people wanted to be called African-American instead of just American as though they wanted to remain separate from everyone else. Instead of incorporating stories of notable black people in the history books there was to be a special Black History month. My son's best friend from age five through fifteen suddenly dropped him on the first day of high-school to join a group of all black teens. My black friend from my book club never spoke to me again after we read "Beloved," and I said I didn't like it. My husband, and the black woman he works for, both get called "racist," over the phone almost daily. It's a non-profit food bank and free store. If they have to say something like, "I'm sorry the free school supplies are all gone," or, "We're closed on Sunday," the 'r" word comes out. I was banned from a TV message board for saying something vaguely negative about the black contestant on "Big Brother." My son works in retail now and the same store policies he has to abide by with every customer are loudly called racist by his black customers. He's confessed to me that he's become afraid of them.
Colorblindness and equal treatment no longer seem to be the goal, in fact it's a dangerous way to be. On the contrary, these days it's wisest to be conscious of the color of the person we're dealing with and tread very softly or else face their wrath and all who wish to be seen as their defenders. So, as I say, I'm not racist but I'm learning to be.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I thought your point was that nobody else is racist, just white westerners.
Absolutely not, that was not my point nor do I believe it.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QB]And yet when general xenophobia or otherism occurs in the west it's always given the "racism" tag. One rule for one, another for the rest?
If you look at my prior posts you can see I specifically focused on non-immigrant related racial issues in the UK. In the US obviously most anti-black racism has nothing to do with immigration as black Americans have been around as long as America has thanks to slavery.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QB] That's a rather backhanded way of agreeing that people other than whites can be hideously racist (rather than just xenophobic or otherist), but I'll take it.
I do not think racism is imprinted on the DNA of white people. I do think Europe spread racism around the world for its economic benefit and the negative effects of that are still felt in a very real way today. And that white Westerners have internalized much, much more of that institutionalized racism than they are willing to accept.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm not racist, but I'm learning.
Why do I feel like this thread is a trap for some of us to voice opinions that will quickly be disissed as irrelevant utterances coming from white privilege?
I was raised in unusual circumstances that brought me to my teens completely colorblind.
[...]
Years passed and things changed for the better. I saw schools integrated and black people in high position in businesses and banks, starring in movies, winning Oscars, gracing the covers of magazines. I knew there was lots of progress still to be made and that's why I voted for affirmative action and anything else that I hoped would push full equality forward.
Then things stared to change in a way I didn't understand.
I'm not African American, although I share some of the same ethnic ancestry, and I'm interested in the issues. (I also have relatives in the USA.) I'd say two things to your long post.
Firstly, I find the notion of colour blindness a bit problematic. It seems to assume that the problems have all been overcome, and that everyone's exactly the same. Despite the success of the black middle classes in the USA and elsewhere in the black diaspora I don't think this has ever been true, and to say so suggests a certain lack of awareness of the wider issues. (And you do say that you were raised in unusual circumstances, which suggests that there were many realities that you were possibly unaware of.)
Secondly, what your post indicates is that there has been a sharpening of the divide between middle class black people and other black people in the USA. I've read about this elsewhere, and it's a feature in a lot of the African American comedy and commentary that ones hears on Youtube.
The fact is, despite some positive role models black people as a whole are suffering from enormous problems in the USA. Have you looked at the stats? It's unsurprising that many young black people become psychologically fragile and conflicted about white people, when they realise that the odds are stacked against them. For those who feel secure in their place as members of the black middle class it must be much easier.
FWIW I'm not interested in blaming 'white privilege', since that just reinforces the opposite notion of black powerlessness, which is unhelpful. But I'm sure one could blame a host of social factors, one of which includes inherited or imported understandings of blackness and whiteness. These notions have become pervasive around the world, which is why the idea of colour blindness makes little sense. I don't think racism can be defeated by colour blindness, I'm sad to say.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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