Thread: Purgatory: Bareback Mountain Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
Ok. So I waited and waited and nobody started a Heavenly thread about going to see Brokeback Mountain. Pages about Narnia. Pages about King Kong. But not a word about the movie that's getting rave critical reviews and bunches of awards. That has really surprised me on the ship, it being so liberal and all.

So what's the deal? It's an extremely good movie. Everybody knows it's an extremely good movie. Are only gay people going to see it? Have any straight people on the ship seen it? Or are you kinda curious but maybe a little afraid to be seen standing in line to get tickets? Or despite that fact that some of your best friends are gay don't want to maybe see something, you know, icky, on the big screen. Just wait and maybe watch on DVD?

Or is it the cowboy thing? Will and Grace is fine and funny because it reinforces stereotypes in a humorous way. But cowboys screwing. There are limits you know.

Really, what's the deal? If you don't have a 'problem' with homosexuality and you generally like to catch the new, good flicks, are you going to go? If not, why not?

Lord knows I've gone to enough movies that had men and women kissing on each other.

[took pity on Sine]

[ 06. April 2006, 09:11: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
 

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Posted by Sophie Bell (# 8822) on :
 
Honestly, I pick what movies I want to see in the theater by how viewing them in the theater will differ from viewing them on my T.V. Action-packed, special effects laden stuff will look better on the big screen than my 21 inch. So we spend the $10 on the "blockbusters" and wait to see the sensitive, emotional, well acted dramas on video.

Probably not the best choice in a "voting with my money" sort of way, but it works for us. So I want to see Brokeback Mountian, but I'll see it later, when it's out on video. (Probably much later, seeing as how we still haven't seen Crash or Million Dollar Baby yet either.)
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
Maybe I need to go see it again to get the title right in the OP.

(The thread title of course was deliberate.)
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I've been busy--there was this little thing called "Christmas" to deal with. I find watching anyone kissing in the movies totally hot unless they're really, really ugly.

As to your disappointment about there not being a thread on the movie yet, there hasn't been a thread on "Good Night and Good Luck," "Match Point," "Munich," or "Syriana." What prejudices do you suppose we all have based on the non-existence of those threads?
 

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Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 
I am gay and I still haven't seen it.

Maybe when it comes out on DVD.
 

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Posted by fionn (# 8534) on :
 
It is on my 'to see' list but I doubt that it will play within my driving radius.
I definitely want to see what is causing Rev Robertson etal so much heartburn.
It it were not for Rev Robertson, I would not go because I have little if any positive use for the film critics. They tend to like pretentious poorly-scripted plotless pooferies that are politically correct, anti-semitic garbage.
I tend to like movies like Narnia, Casanova, LotR, etc.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
I meant this more Purgatorially than my OP sounds. I was wondering why nobody had started a Heaven Thread and then saw this article today in our local paper.

(And no, I don't live in Miami, but it wasn't online in our paper. Had to do a little work to find it.)
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
What prejudices do you suppose we all have based on the non-existence of those threads?

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There has been a huge amount of publicity about it, unlike the other films you listed. Those kinds of "things in the news" normally get a lot of play on the ship in my opinion. So I thought it odd.

Then I read the article I just linked to and wondered if there was a connection and what people thought. Purgatory seems to be the place to ask what people think.
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
Hey, I've read the short story it was based on... how many other people here can say that, hmmmm? (It's a gorgeous, but sad, story. Don't know how faithful the movie is to it.)

The next movie on my "must see" list is Good Night and Good Luck. Brokeback Mountain is number two.
 

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Posted by Beautiful_Dreamer (# 10880) on :
 
I personally would love to go see it but I dont know where it is playing. I don't think it will come to my conservative little town, and my friends don't want to go to Atlanta (nearest major city) to see it. So I will have to wait until DVD. Sad, because both men are hot.
 

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Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Maybe I need to go see it again to get the title right in the OP.

(The thread title of course was deliberate.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I am gay and I still haven't seen it.

Maybe when it comes out on DVD.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
What prejudices do you suppose we all have based on the non-existence of those threads?

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There has been a huge amount of publicity about it, unlike the other films you listed. Those kinds of "things in the news" normally get a lot of play on the ship in my opinion. So I thought it odd.

Then I read the article I just linked to and wondered if there was a connection and what people thought. Purgatory seems to be the place to ask what people think.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gort:
Sad, I know, but for me, emotion needs to be experienced up-close, live and personal... much like music.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I meant this more Purgatorially than my OP sounds. I was wondering why nobody had started a Heaven Thread and then saw this article today in our local paper.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
We only know what you mean if that's what you type.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I am gay and I still haven't seen it.

Maybe when it comes out on DVD.

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Any particular reason?

I'm finding I'm really curious about this. I originally wasn't going to go see it because you know, every queer in town was going to go and I just didn't want to be one of the lemmings. But then I decided (for me personally) I was just being contrary (my usual state) so went ahead and went. But mind you I went to the early show on a weeknight.

(And actually the mountain scenery is quite spectacular on the big screen.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So are you saying you don't have CDs but only go to live concerts?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
What did you think about the story, acting and dialogue? Do you think, on the merits of the film itself, it warrants all the notariety and nominations it has received?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
What did you think was juvenile and stupid about it?

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Unfortunately, it was published over a week ago so is no longer available online. The guy in the Herald characterizes it briefly. It was very nudge-nudge-wink-wink, all about how much the guy really wanted to see this movie but was afraid it would be so powerful, this movie about icons of maleness being gay, that he, this wussy guy in loafers and a tie who has to have his latte every morning, would turn gay if he saw the movie. It was tongue in cheek, so the reader was supposed to think, "Of course he doesn't really mean this," but the unintended irony was of course that he did mean it.

Generally it's women who go to see movies about relationships. Make a movie about a relationship between gay guys and the gay guys will show up. I went to see "Rumor Has It" (a friend wanted to see it, not my choice) last weekend, and the audience was, predictably, full of women. If there were gay guys there, they were travelling below my gaydar. So the presumption that straight men are staying away because of the "ick" factor seems faulty to me. Most straight guys don't want to go to any slow-moving film about a tragic relationship. They only went to "Titanic" for the disaster aspect and special effects.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
That makes sense to me. Thanks. I hadn't thought of it that way. Too boring, not too icky.
 

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Posted by da_musicman (# 1018) on :
 
I'd composed a long post all about why I haven't seen it yet and realised I was going on the defensive. Really just haven't had the chance yet. I think it's been released at a bad time of year for getting huge swarms of people going at once. People are still recovering from Christmas and New Year. I'm still only halfway through visiting folks.

I thought that article was juvenile due to the fact the writer was concerned watching this film about Gay Cowboys may turn him gay.

One review of the film did say how it reminded them of a South Park episode which had a film in all about gay cowbiys sitting around eating pudding. Any pudding in it?

quote:

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Lord knows I've gone to enough movies that had men and women kissing on each other.

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I assume this is tongue in cheek but just as some people feel uncomfortablee watching gay love scenes because of the protaganists involved rather than the actions, do people ever feel uneasy watching straight love scenes for the same reason?
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
I'm heterosexual, and as far I can remember always have been. But I used to watch "Queer as Folk" on SBS fairly regularly. Actually, it's the only soap I ever followed for some time other than "The Storm Rages Twice" (how's that for weird taste? ). So I doubt that I can be shocked by any homosexual scenes Brokeback Mountain may contain...

Yes, the cowboy represents a cultural male archetype who happens to be heterosexual (although this is not a signal feature, the cowboy is not a cowboy because he bonks women all the time). The cowboy of cultural myth is also more or less a white Caucasian (possibly somewhat Indian, possibly somewhat Spanish, ...). That's also factually incorrect, since for example many real cowboys were blacks.

So, well, what about a movie which challenges this archetype? Personally, it doesn't make me feel "icky", it mostly makes me yawn. OK, yeah, there are gay cowboys. OK, yeah, they suffer from prejudice. Thanks, now that you mention it, it's fairly obvious that this is the case. Are you collecting money for Gay Cowboy Affirmative Action, or something? No? You just want to overload my easy entertainment with yet another repeat of a well-known (and yes, worthy) cultural agenda? Well, sorry, I will get my cheap thrills somewhere else. Make a good TV documentary, I will probably end up watching that.

Next I will discover that Matthew Kane is actually a repressed Strogg-sexual...

P.S.: It never fails to amaze me when somebody (like the Miami Herald dude) goes on about how weird it is that heterosexual men view lesbian sex so differently to male homosexual action. In heterosexual male fantasy land, two lesbians getting all steamy mean that I'm about to get two instead of one willing female partners and I don't need to bother about foreplay anymore than I feel like. But two homosexual guys, well, are just two guys doing intimate things I don't want to do. What sort of heterosexual fantasy am I supposed to base on that? Well, perhaps they just discovered their gayness and leave behind two highly frustrated wives who are getting it on next door. I better go and check. See ya.
 

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Posted by GoodCatholicLad (# 9231) on :
 
I thought it was a fantastic movie, the acting great, especially Heath Ledger, and the cinematography (sp?) superb. I liked Capote better, Phillip Seymor Hoffman is my favorite actor.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Yes, the cowboy represents a cultural male archetype who happens to be heterosexual (although this is not a signal feature, the cowboy is not a cowboy because he bonks women all the time).

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quote:

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P.S.: It never fails to amaze me when somebody (like the Miami Herald dude) goes on about how weird it is that heterosexual men view lesbian sex so differently to male homosexual action. In heterosexual male fantasy land, two lesbians getting all steamy mean that I'm about to get two instead of one willing female partners and I don't need to bother about foreplay anymore than I feel like. But two homosexual guys, well, are just two guys doing intimate things I don't want to do. What sort of heterosexual fantasy am I supposed to base on that? Well, perhaps they just discovered their gayness and leave behind two highly frustrated wives who are getting it on next door. I better go and check. See ya.

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Two gay guys are just two guys doing things you don't want to do, so you're not interested. But two lesbians are just two women doing things I don't want to do, but I still think it's sexy to watch. As I said, any reasonably attractive people kissing in the movies is fine by me.
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Generally it's women who go to see movies about relationships. Make a movie about a relationship between gay guys and the gay guys will show up. I went to see "Rumor Has It" (a friend wanted to see it, not my choice) last weekend, and the audience was, predictably, full of women. If there were gay guys there, they were travelling below my gaydar. So the presumption that straight men are staying away because of the "ick" factor seems faulty to me. Most straight guys don't want to go to any slow-moving film about a tragic relationship. They only went to "Titanic" for the disaster aspect and special effects.

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
[...] But two homosexual guys, well, are just two guys doing intimate things I don't want to do. What sort of heterosexual fantasy am I supposed to base on that?...

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I didn't realize breakback was a porno-movie. Evidence suggests it's an emotional drama.

Oh, that's right. "Gay" is all about sex. I forgot.
 

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Posted by GoodCatholicLad (# 9231) on :
 
Well RuthW at least we agree on Brokeback Mountain Again i thought it was a great movie and Ang Lee is a versatile and great director.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

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Originally posted by Laura:
I don't like slow-moving films about tragic relationships. Remains of the Day is my idea of Hell. I can do about an hour of unfillable yearning and then I want everyone to get together. So that's why I'm not going to see it. I expect it will depress me, because I will want them to be together and happy forever.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
I don't know about that, Ruth. I'm not happily married or partnered at the moment, and I really can't think of a more hellish two hours than to spend it watching two people moon over each other, regardless of their respective genders. I'd rather pound tent stakes into my eye sockets, really.

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I did say it was my "theory of the moment." Clearly that moment has now passed.
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Hee! I find it interesting, though, that the movies Sine cited as his evidence are movies where things actually happen. Particularly special effects. In all my years here I don't ever remember seeing threads discussing romantic movies of any sort. There my very well have been some, I don't know, but I can't remember them.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
The various incarnations of "Pride and Prejudice" have been discussed pretty thoroughly. But generally you're right, relationship movies haven't been discussed much on the Ship. Discussion of blockbuster movies takes off because so many people see those movies. Movies aimed at smaller audiences are harder to discuss effectively here. "Pride and Prejudice" is the exception, perhaps because Austen-lovers are over-represented on the Ship. And interest in the movies of "Pride and Prejudice" stems mostly from love for the book, which is not at all about people mooning over each other.

[Edit: Originally I said P&P is not about people mooning each other. Just thought I'd share that with everyone who missed it.]

[ 11. January 2006, 04:22: Message edited by: RuthW ]
 

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Posted by ReginaShoe (# 4076) on :
 
Haven't seen it myself, but I only see maybe a couple of movies a year in the theaters, so give me time to get around to it after the DVD comes out. I'll want to see it then, but my husband probably won't just because he doesn't go for emotional dramas. Plus, he is a big "South Park" fan and would probably get the giggles waiting for the pudding to show up.

However, I mostly had to post on this thread to ask - did anyone catch the "Boondocks" comic strip on the week of Dec. 5th? It's the one where Grandad wants to go off to see a movie, and picks "Brokeback Mountain" because a movie about cowboys has to be manly, right? It was hilarious. Sadly, it is no longer readily available on the "ucomics" web site that features the "Boondocks" strip (you have to register to see farther back than two weeks ago), but one of the strips and some lines can be seen here.

(Shouting in the theater: "GET OFF HIM!")

[ 11. January 2006, 04:45: Message edited by: ReginaShoe ]
 

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Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gort:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
[...] But two homosexual guys, well, are just two guys doing intimate things I don't want to do. What sort of heterosexual fantasy am I supposed to base on that?...

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I didn't realize breakback was a porno-movie. Evidence suggests it's an emotional drama.

Oh, that's right. "Gay" is all about sex. I forgot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
It hasn't opened in Idaho yet, though they're selling advance tickets. And apparently the theater chain in Salt Lake that was going to open it got cold feet. I'm going to go and see how many of the audience are wearing cowboy boots...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gort:
I didn't realize breakback was a porno-movie. Evidence suggests it's an emotional drama.

Oh, that's right. "Gay" is all about sex. I forgot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gort:
I didn't realize breakback was a porno-movie. Evidence suggests it's an emotional drama.

Oh, that's right. "Gay" is all about sex. I forgot.

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OK, so Sine asks in the OP whether heteros are not going to the movie because gay sex is "icky". Then Sine links to an article in the Miami Herald which elaborates on the point. Then I write quite a bit about how I don't mind seeing gay sex, but that I watch Westerns for easy entertainment and tragic gay cowboy love just ain't. And then I add a P.S. ridiculing the Miami Herald guy's take on men enjoying lesbian sex while mildly mocking my own fantasies.

Then you selectively cite from that P.S. and claim that I have thereby reduced "gay" to sex. Is that fair?

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Then you selectively cite from that P.S. and claim that I have thereby reduced "gay" to sex. Is that fair?

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quote:

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From Ingo's relevent post:

But two homosexual guys, well, are just two guys doing intimate things I don't want to do.

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Pardon me, but I think there may be more to this movie than just two guys doing intimate things you don't want to do.

[note to Bede: I wasn't being flip]
 

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Posted by cometchaser (# 10353) on :
 
my answer is easy. I hate movie theatres. I find THEM icky.

last week I went and saw narnia in the theatre, and it was my first true mass-theatre movie since... since... um...

never mind. can't remember.

I do go to a dinner theatre in Anchorage occationally, where they play essentially DVD releases but on a big screen. but it's in a very nice, clean place, and they serve Guinness.

'nuff said.

I plan to see Brokeback Mountain there, a few co-workers and myself are planning on a carpooling lets-go-drink-stout-eat-nachos-and-watch-a-flick trip. last one we did was Hitchhikers.

I dont normally like great DRAMA movies either, but I frankly want to see this one because of the plain old BALLS it took to produce it.

I'm enjoying the few reactions to the movie I've read so far, thank you. as a strait chick, I do want to hear reactions from gay men and lesbians as well. is this movie a stereotyping "nice try" or is it right on, or halfway there, or...?

Comet
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gort:
Pardon me, but I think there may be more to this movie than just two guys doing intimate things you don't want to do.

[note to Bede: I wasn't being flip]

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Try reading paragraph two and three of my original post, rather than going on about its P.S., which was actually not talking about the movie.
 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
You lot have convinced me that it might be worth catching this film. I wasn't going to bother because it's a cowboy film, and I find all of them intensely dull. (With the excaption of Blazing Saddles of course.)
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Try reading paragraph two and three of my original post, rather than going on about its P.S., which was actually not talking about the movie.

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quote:

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[...] So, well, what about a movie which challenges this archetype? Personally, it doesn't make me feel "icky", it mostly makes me yawn. OK, yeah, there are gay cowboys. OK, yeah, they suffer from prejudice. Thanks, now that you mention it, it's fairly obvious that this is the case. Are you collecting money for Gay Cowboy Affirmative Action, or something? No? You just want to overload my easy entertainment with yet another repeat of a well-known (and yes, worthy) cultural agenda? Well, sorry, I will get my cheap thrills somewhere else...

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Originally posted by Gort:
Good to see you're displaying an interest in worthy cultural agendas here. Not sure how it will qualify as a cheap thrill, however.

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Originally posted by Erin:
And Sine, if you've been "waiting and waiting" for someone to start a Heaven thread, why didn't you do it? Clearly your "new thread" button isn't broken because, well, here we are. So what is your excuse?

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I've not been to see it, but then I almost never go to the cinema - two hours of frenetic 11-year olds continuously texting one another over a distance of about three yards ain't my idea of fun.

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Both also argued that when we see a mainstream movie in which the guy gets the guy and disappears off into Happily Ever After, then we'll actually have some progress.

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Both independently argued that it conforms to the stereotype of the 'tragic gays' - either gay guys in movies are mincing celibate best friends who work in fashion design or something, or they are tragic, manly figures cursed to misery by their orientation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
And Sine, if you've been "waiting and waiting" for someone to start a Heaven thread, why didn't you do it? Clearly your "new thread" button isn't broken because, well, here we are. So what is your excuse?

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Because, like Sherlock Holmes, I thought it was more significant that the dog didn't bark, which seemed Purgatorial.

And also I thought there were issues around it more than just the movie itself.

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Originally posted by Laura:
don't like slow-moving films about tragic relationships.

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My own reason for not seeing it summed up beautifully.

If the movie was about hot studly cowboys living happily ever after, I'd be much more keen on it. But I'm the kind of person for whom King Kong is too tragic to watch even though I would love to see Kong vs. dinos for hours.

David
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(However if I see 'The Producers' this weekend, I'll put that in Heaven. And watch it wither and die.)

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Join (Infinite Crisis) the (Infinite Crisis) club! (Infinite Crisis)

David
(Infinite Crisis)
 

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Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 

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Originally posted by ChastMastr:
But I'm the kind of person for whom King Kong is too tragic to watch...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The first Romantic film discssion on the ship is in purgatory. Strange.

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Nope, the recent version of "Pride and Prejudice" and the one with Colin Firth getting wet plus the older BBC one have all been discussed in Heaven. I know, I was there!
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I would also say that one of the actors going on about how difficult it was to do the romantic scenes with another guy gets kind of old after a while. Shades of Hal "I'm not gay, I just play a character who is" Sparks! No one ever feels the need to make sure everyone knows they're not really the role they're playing the rest of the time.
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The first Romantic film discssion on the ship is in purgatory. Strange.

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Nope, the recent version of "Pride and Prejudice" and the one with Colin Firth getting wet plus the older BBC one have all been discussed in Heaven. I know, I was there!

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• busloads of children dying
• kidnapping
• bizarre sexual abuse
• films in which the primary character is wrongly prosecuted/persecuted for a horrible crime he didn't commit (i.e., the entire "Fugitive" genre)
• truly creepy bloody horror (as opposed to B movie horror which I adore)
• the Holocaust
• four hours of tragic love and unfulfilled yearning
• anything with more explosions than syllables uttered
• war movies that are very realistic
• grainy depressing "brilliant and provocative" eastern European or French movies about any subject
• most comedies in which the main character is a plucky talking animal (I liked Babe, though. But I'd argue that's a drama)

quote:

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Originally posted by nicolemrw:
Personally, I have nothing against tragedy, when the tragic ending is whats called for, which is one reason I want to see the movie. The story itself is more of a condemnation of the constraints of society that made the sad ending more-or-less inevitable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

What would you say about E.M. Forster's Maurice? Not a movie, but PBS did a Masterpiece Theatre series of it (probably originally a BBC drama.) The ending was sort of "happily ever after", in that the two main characters went off to live together, but then the book implies that by doing so, they have set themselves beyond the pale of polite society. That was set in the 1930's!

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• "family" comedies like Cheaper By the Dozen
• tearjerking cancer movies

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Originally posted by Wood:
All cowboy movies are actually about gay men, aren't they?

No, this isn't me yanking any chains - I'm at least 65% serious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
See that's just the thing. I didn't find it 'romantic'. I saw it as soul-destroying. Everybody lost.

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
See that's just the thing. I didn't find it 'romantic'. I saw it as soul-destroying. Everybody lost.

I felt a lot sorrier for their wives than I did for them. A lot sorrier.

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Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
I'll probably see the movie eventually. I have a friend who was involved in the production of the film---no one famous. For those of you who have seen the film, just how graphic are the sex scenes and how much nudity are we talking about? I'd like to be forewarned.

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Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Brokeback Mountain is NOT a gay cowboy movie. As I found out watcvhing Gene Sheppard's review on the Today Show (He didn't particularly like it) the clips that were shon reveal that these two men are shepherds not cow punchers. And we all know what shepherds do for sex.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
Why did you automatically assume the worst?

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Originally posted by Lamburnite:

Ang Lee showed remarkable restraint. A couple of you have mentioned that the sex/nutidy is almost too tasteful. And the tragic elements of the plot are not underlined in the usual heavyhanded Hollywood way -- I actually found it much more devastating in retrospect than while I was watching it. I also want to go back and see it again.

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quote:

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Anal sex for many seems like a taboo activity, and much of society still shuns it. But statistics show that roughly 35% of heterosexuals and 50% of the gay community practice anal sex at least occasionally. —"Anal Sex" from Sexual Health InfoCenter

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quote:

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Some people presume that sex between men will involve anal penetration. In a national study carried out in Britain in the 1990s however, it was discovered that between a quarter and a third of homosexual men have never had anal sex as either the penetrative or receptive partner. In recent years, since it has become clear that penetrative sex is a particularly risky activity with regard to HIV, quite a lot of men who previously had penetrative sex have altered their behaviour. —"What do gay men and lesbian women do?" on AVERT.ORG

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ang Lee is marvelous, and definitely the reason I want to see this film.

Check out his Ice Storm, Wedding Banquet, and Eat/Drink, Man/Woman for more brilliance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by likeness:
I've nothing against the gay subject matter - the same director's less ambitious, earlier effort The Wedding Banquet is far more impressive - but I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.

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I hear you-- and wil keep this in mind when i see the film.

As an example of what you are talking about--a little film called Go Fish,directed by Rose Troche. A little black-and-white number dealing with the lives of a sort of commune of lesbians. Directing? Wonderful. Cinematography? Beautiful (and black and white! )Love scenes? Exciting. Script was witty and insightful, casting not bad-- except the acting was like a tenth grade production of Our Town. You could totally tell that the director just got a bunch of her friends together that fit the general type she was trying to portray, and didn't care much about their acting ability. Their line delivery was not worthy of bad porn.

But it is still hailed as a paragon of gay cinema.

Allison Anders better get her butt moving. Gay Cinema needs her.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
There's also an unintentionally hilarious scene where one character's wife sees her husband and his male companion having a grope outside the house.

---

What did you think was unintentionally hilarious about it?
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I grew up in the Bay Area and already know plenty of gay men that look "straight" and are "cowboys". They had Country Night at Hamburger Mary's every Wed. for years, you could see them lined around the block in San Jose.

Don't need no movie to enlightened this conservative bible-banger on that. I already know men who are straight that dress like women and gay men who have helped me figure out what was wrong with my car, grease monkey. Stereotypes suck of any type. Besides, they are boring.

Besides not needing enlightment, [insert Laura's list here ]. Thanks.

duchess looks next to her to see if her mother looks over her shoulder to read what she is writing...probably but here it goes...

I am already suffering, I mean, watching "Country Boys". Mother Duchess neglected to tell me that it is six cotton-picking hours long! Help me Jesus. If I make it through...I might start a thread on it.

[eta: I hate Heath Ledger too for no apparent reason. He just bores me silly. Even sticking Simon Le Bon singing in that movie as a gay cowboy would not get me to watch it. Well, maybe 2 mintues to see what he was wearing.]

[ 16. January 2006, 01:14: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
OK, seen it now ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
There's also an unintentionally hilarious scene where one character's wife sees her husband and his male companion having a grope outside the house.

---

What did you think was unintentionally hilarious about it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bede's American Successor:
Brokeback Mountain gives the idea that anal sex is the way for gay men to have sexual relations, without exception. This promotes a stereotype that just simply isn't true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
Ruth, with all due respect, I think Bede has a point. The average person (especially the older ones) in my rather conservative small-town, insulated middle/lower-class environs probably does imagine that male gay sex is pretty much all vigorous anal humping with no affection or love.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(I'm reminded of the first time I saw Gone with the Wind as a kid and had no idea why Rhett carried Scarlett up the stairs, or why she was smiling and humming the next morning in bed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
Ruth, with all due respect, I think Bede has a point. The average person (especially the older ones) in my rather conservative small-town, insulated middle/lower-class environs probably does imagine that male gay sex is pretty much all vigorous anal humping with no affection or love.

---

Sure, but he's not talking to them. He's talking to folks on the Ship, and more specifically he's talking to people interested enough in this movie to click on a thread about it. I'd bet that's a very different demographic.

---

quote:

---

The film has already earned seven nominations for the Golden Globes, and multiple Oscar nominations are all but certain to follow. Ledger and Williams—who both earned Globes noms—especially stand out, both conveying reams of emotion with dialogue that probably only covers a few pages. But as much as Brokeback Mountain is being touted as a groundbreaking movie for its depictions of homosexuality, it is populated with people with conventional attitudes about homosexuality. And though it's presented as a story of thwarted love—of ache and longing and regrets—it's also ultimately a story about the relationships that shape us … for better and for worse. (emphasis added)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
You know, Bede, I'm not sure a dark, fuzzy scene of them sixty-nining each other in the tent would have worked quite as well. At least the way they did it got the point across without being too graphic. If you knew what they were doing, you knew what they were doing, if that makes any sense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
Ruth, with all due respect, I think Bede has a point. The average person (especially the older ones) in my rather conservative small-town, insulated middle/lower-class environs probably does imagine that male gay sex is pretty much all vigorous anal humping with no affection or love.

---

Sure, but he's not talking to them. He's talking to folks on the Ship, and more specifically he's talking to people interested enough in this movie to click on a thread about it. I'd bet that's a very different demographic.

---

Ruth, I sugget you put the hankie down

---

quote:

---

Why would everyone reading and writing about Brokeback Mountain on SoF be a liberal "peace-first" hankie squeezer?

---

quote:

---

Actually, Ruth, I am surprised that you think that the only people that would read this thread are those who know better.

---

quote:

---

I seem to remember a bit of a disturbance in the force when we had a certain Mardi Gras discussion last spring. People that weren't interested in The Rites of Fall in Gay Australia did express their opinion about it.

---

quote:

---

Instead, I would expect there are a fair number of people, lurkers and posters, that thins like this article from Christianity Today:

quote:

---

The film has already earned seven nominations for the Golden Globes, and multiple Oscar nominations are all but certain to follow. Ledger and Williams—who both earned Globes noms—especially stand out, both conveying reams of emotion with dialogue that probably only covers a few pages. But as much as Brokeback Mountain is being touted as a groundbreaking movie for its depictions of homosexuality, it is populated with people with conventional attitudes about homosexuality. And though it's presented as a story of thwarted love—of ache and longing and regrets—it's also ultimately a story about the relationships that shape us … for better and for worse. (emphasis added)

---

There has also been some controvery over the use of the word "sexual predator" to describe Jack Twist. Gene Shalit clarifies what he meant. (I happen to think there is more than a bit of truth in Gene Shalit's original review, although I appreciate his clarification.)

---

quote:

---

Another point to remember that there are people that show up on SoF that are questioning. I don't want some 18 year old that is wondering what his orientation is to think that the Great Example of 2005™ is the Only Example of 2005™. This movie only gives one example—one that did exist then and still exists today. Still, no one's fate requires them to follow it.

---

quote:

---

My concern is that there will be those that think that this is the only way it happens.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
But I didn't say this. I said the demographic of the Ship is not the same as that of jlg's small town. There may very well be people who don't know better. But has anyone here demonstrated such ignorance? Not that I can see.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
But the argument against it from universal knowledge fails.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
But the argument against it from universal knowledge fails.

---

Good thing I made no such argument, then.

---

... universal knowledge of all Shipmates participating in this thread is what I meant.
 

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Posted by Renay (# 8463) on :
 
My mother and I saw the movie last month in Houston. There was a fairly large crowd. We thought the movie was wonderful and very sad. The acting was superb. We both gained respect for Heath Ledger's acting abilities.
 

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Posted by badman (# 9634) on :
 
We saw it on Friday. I thought it was a fantastic film, one of the best I will ever see.

It looks beautiful: those open landscapes, the sheep streaming like liquid over it (somehow reminding me of the imagery of the Song of Solomon) - those who have said they will wait to see it on DVD will be missing out if they don't see it on the big screen.

The screenplay is powerfully understated and the acting too.

I didn't think it was a gay film so much as a film about relationships and about wanting the impossible - it works in the same way as "Brief Encounter" did and I think for the same reason - because it is set at a time when the relationship can't be entirely fulfilled. It's not that something that should have happened did not happen - it's that the protagonists can't be happy, their desires don't fit their world. But that's a staple of much romantic literature from Romeo and Juliet onwards, it's not a smug put down of gay people. That's why it plays to non gay audiences, surely.

It's definitely not about sex. It's a 15 certificate in the UK and there is nothing graphic in it.

The central character has to be Ennis, and surely the point about him is
**SPOILER WARNING - SCROLL DOWN ONLY IF YOU'VE SEEN THE FILM***
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the loss of ALL his relationships: with his dead parents, his siblings “lost” on their marriages, his fractured relationship with Jack Twist, his broken marriage, his unfulfilled relationship with the waitress and, finally, the “loss” of his daughter on her marriage, after his bereavement of Jack.
 

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Posted by da_musicman (# 1018) on :
 
Possible Spoiler
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I didn't see his daughter getting married as being another loss. The way in which he handled it in giving his blessing but checking the man loved her said the me that he was going to try and rescue that one relationship while he still had a chance as he had lost all his other relationships. Just my tuppence worth. (Loved the film and didnt think it was at all graphic.)
 

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Posted by The Riv (# 3553) on :
 
Tom Selleck and Jackie Chan have all but ruined Western-themed (set) movies for me.

And, I'm with Erin on the whole theatre experience in general. Buying a DVD isn't really any more expensive than going to a feature film at an adult hour, anyway -- particularly if you're paying for two.

Longing and unrequited love are perfectly palatable themes with me. For example, I really enjoyed The Notebook. Yes, a hetero flick. Maybe I'd like the Mountainman movie. Of course, I didn't like Thelma & Louise, and for all intent and purposes, that was a homosexual-western-sadly ending-movie...

[ 16. January 2006, 17:16: Message edited by: The Riv ]
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
[QUOTE]Ruth, I sugget you put the hankie down

---

I suggest you stop being rude.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Why would everyone reading and writing about Brokeback Mountain on SoF be a liberal "peace-first" hankie squeezer?

---

Only liberals know anything about gay sex?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Thelma & Louise was a homosexual movie??????????????????????????????????????

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And to me the 'gay thing' was pretty much just a hook for the freedom and romance we want but don't find in the dull routine of our daily lives. For the bad choices we make, straight or gay.

And the contrast between the freedom in the mountains and the crushing dreariness of everyday life in the bleak plains was also compelling.

Frankly, I think if the guys had been able to get together they would have probably hated each other's guts inside of five years. It's easy to be romantic a couple of times a year when you're off on vacation.

But then I'm a cynic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
If you really think that comment was rude, why don't you call me to Hell over it? The discussion won't sidetrack this thread.

---

quote:

---

Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I didn't say all on SoF would jump to this conclusion. I didn't say you would jump to this conclusion. I did say I have a concern about what what might happen with some people. If you understood the meaning of my words to be anything else, I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. That is what I meant to say.

---

quote:

---

(If you want futher discussion on whether Ennis was a willing partner from the very start, I'll be happy to quote from the moview script and short story. I have no doubt that Ennis was shown to be a willing partner after getting over an initial rejection. The story and script are available in a single book, along with enlightening comments from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.)

---

quote:

---

I would also suggest you go to the movie's website and look at the "Share Your Story" section. This movie is affecting people greatly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
There's also an unintentionally hilarious scene where one character's wife sees her husband and his male companion having a grope outside the house.

---

What did you think was unintentionally hilarious about it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
OK, seen it now ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.

---

What buttons did you think the movie pushed?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
If you really think that comment was rude, why don't you call me to Hell over it? The discussion won't sidetrack this thread.

---

Because I don't have the time or the interest to pursue the matter.

quote:

---

Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I didn't say all on SoF would jump to this conclusion. I didn't say you would jump to this conclusion. I did say I have a concern about what what might happen with some people. If you understood the meaning of my words to be anything else, I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. That is what I meant to say.

---

On what is this concern based? Because I can't see why anyone would draw broad conclusions about gay people based on seeing one movie.

quote:

---

(If you want futher discussion on whether Ennis was a willing partner from the very start, I'll be happy to quote from the moview script and short story. I have no doubt that Ennis was shown to be a willing partner after getting over an initial rejection. The story and script are available in a single book, along with enlightening comments from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.)

---

Go for it. But keep in mind that the script, the story, and the movie are three different things. Just because something is there in the story and the script doesn't mean it's there in the movie.

quote:

---

I would also suggest you go to the movie's website and look at the "Share Your Story" section. This movie is affecting people greatly.

---

I'm willing to take your word for it that this movie is greatly affecting some people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
When I saw the film, the thing that made me laugh was the timing...the fact that the wife just happened to come out at the moment she did...obviously this could occur within the dramatic context, but I found it way too contrived...and it was that absurdist element of contrivance that I found funny.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.

---

What buttons did you think the movie pushed?

---

Two people engage in a gay relationship. In a world which disapproves of such relationships. So they have a hard time.

There's something about this subject matter which means that people will make allowances for dramatic gaffs (i.e. not notice them) because they feel so strongly in synch with the issues articulated by the film.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
If you really think that comment was rude, why don't you call me to Hell over it? The discussion won't sidetrack this thread.

---

Because I don't have the time or the interest to pursue the matter.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I didn't say all on SoF would jump to this conclusion. I didn't say you would jump to this conclusion. I did say I have a concern about what what might happen with some people. If you understood the meaning of my words to be anything else, I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. That is what I meant to say.

---

On what is this concern based? Because I can't see why anyone would draw broad conclusions about gay people based on seeing one movie.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

(If you want futher discussion on whether Ennis was a willing partner from the very start, I'll be happy to quote from the moview script and short story. I have no doubt that Ennis was shown to be a willing partner after getting over an initial rejection. The story and script are available in a single book, along with enlightening comments from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.)

---

Go for it. But keep in mind that the script, the story, and the movie are three different things. Just because something is there in the story and the script doesn't mean it's there in the movie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:
I will be seeing it this week, I hope in the company of my very conservative cowboy father-in-law.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by iGeek.:
Ennis' outlook and response to his feelings for Jack were clearly formed early on with the event that he recalled late in the film about the two guys who ranched together that were gay-bashed to death. He was pretty sure that his own father was involved and viewing the bashed, dead body of one of the guys made a very deep impression. One can imagine what that must have done to his emotional health during adolescence when he realised his attraction to men.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:I would also suggest you go to the movie's website and look at the "Share Your Story" section. This movie is affecting people greatly. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badman:
Ennis says at the beginning "I ain't queer". Of course, he could be in denial. But is it possible that he is telling the truth?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by athroes:
I won't be seeing it as...it's a cowboy movie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by iGeek.:
Ennis' outlook and response to his feelings for Jack were clearly formed early on with the event that he recalled late in the film about the two guys who ranched together that were gay-bashed to death. He was pretty sure that his own father was involved and viewing the bashed, dead body of one of the guys made a very deep impression. One can imagine what that must have done to his emotional health during adolescence when he realised his attraction to men.

---

iGeek, perhaps you are particularly well qualified to answer this question for me: do you think Ennis is gay? or bisexual? or is it even a possible reading of the film that, while Jack is gay (and in a pretty much sexless marriage according to his "could do it on the telephone" description), Ennis is essentially a straight man who falls in love with Jack and has his only gay feelings for him? It's just that Ennis didn't seem to have any feelings for any other men, and seemed genuinely to desire his wife. Also, in the final conversation on Brokeback Ennis makes it clear that he expects total same-sex fidelity from Jack (which Jack says is unrealistic) which suggests that Jack is the only man for Ennis. Ennis says at the beginning "I ain't queer". Of course, he could be in denial. But is it possible that he is telling the truth?

One of the reasons I found the film so profound and thought provoking was because of complexities and ambiguities like this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
When I saw the film, the thing that made me laugh was the timing...the fact that the wife just happened to come out at the moment she did...obviously this could occur within the dramatic context, but I found it way too contrived...and it was that absurdist element of contrivance that I found funny.

---

Actually I don't remember specifically since it's been a while since I saw it, but I assume she came out to greet a guest, which would seem natural to me. Or not? But like RuthW, I was too attuned to the wife's shock to notice any possible humor in the situation.

I do remember being dismayed that the guys would let their, uh, passion get the better of them outside like that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by likeness:
Incidentally, while everyone's feeling sorry for the poor wife, I thought the main characters (the ones who, in Hollywood parlance, we're supposed to root for) were the cowboys. (I think the film is structured like this regardless of whether you're a male or a female viewer.) A movie about the plight of the wife might well be compelling - but that isn't the current movie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RainbowKate:
I haven't seen it, and don't really plan to. Westerns remind me of the years I lived in Kansas, and I'd just rather not go there.

---

Must -- resist -- can't --- stop --- self -- send --- help --

But --

But --

(All together now!)

"I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!"

David
just had to, you understand
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by nicolemrw:
Hey, I've read the short story it was based on... how many other people here can say that, hmmmm? (It's a gorgeous, but sad, story. Don't know how faithful the movie is to it.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badman:
do you think Ennis is gay? or bisexual? [Is] Ennis is essentially a straight man who falls in love with Jack and has his only gay feelings for him? It's just that Ennis didn't seem to have any feelings for any other men, and seemed genuinely to desire his wife. Ennis says at the beginning "I ain't queer". Of course, he could be in denial.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
When I saw the movie, I understood that Ennis' initial reaction was repulsion when he realized that Jack had placed his hand on his groin. I feel I they carried out the script and short story, where Ennis is described as "jerk[ing] it away as if he's touched fire" (script and short story).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
But this doesn't necessarily indicate repulsion. I've jerked away from approaches made by men I was very attracted to because they were so unexpected.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
When I saw the movie, I understood that Ennis' initial reaction was repulsion when he realized that Jack had placed his hand on his groin. I feel I they carried out the script and short story, where Ennis is described as "jerk[ing] it away as if he's touched fire" (script and short story).

---

But this doesn't necessarily indicate repulsion. I've jerked away from approaches made by men I was very attracted to because they were so unexpected. The story's metaphor of touching fire indicates pain and fright, but not repulsion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
[...] But two homosexual guys, well, are just two guys doing intimate things I don't want to do. What sort of heterosexual fantasy am I supposed to base on that?...

---

I didn't realize breakback was a porno-movie. Evidence suggests it's an emotional drama.

Oh, that's right. "Gay" is all about sex. I forgot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by athroes:
I've just discovered this thread, and have found the posts fascinating, especially the breadth of discussion. Having said that ( and getting back to the op), I won't be seeing it as a)it's a cowboy movie,
b) it's 'soul distroying' in that no one wins - I watch movies for entertainment
c) I don't tend to like 'critically aclaimed' anything, books or movies - the ones I've read/seen have been pretentious nonsense. Maybe this is different? I *loathed* Dead Poet's Society, and a lot of people said that was worth seeing...
d) the "I won't watch these movies" list definitely applies.

I might read the book, though, as it sounds like the relationships are realistically and sensitively done.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Comper's Child:
But the things I keep wondering about is this "ick" factor with straight men . Boy there must be more latent homosexual feelings out there than I'd ever imagined.. For instance my partner 7 I have a straight friend, fairly liberal and urban who went to see it. Just couldn't come to grips with having to watch 2 men going at it - in the admittedly delicate way it was filmed. Made him very nervous.

I on the other hand don't mind at all when the rest of the straight world "flaunts" their sexuality.

Just a homo who believes we are equally human.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Comper's Child:
But the things I keep wondering about is this "ick" factor with straight men . Boy there must be more latent homosexual feelings out there than I'd ever imagined.. For instance my partner 7 I have a straight friend, fairly liberal and urban who went to see it. Just couldn't come to grips with having to watch 2 men going at it - in the admittedly delicate way it was filmed. Made him very nervous.

I on the other hand don't mind at all when the rest of the straight world "flaunts" their sexuality.

Just a homo who believes we are equally human.

---

I thought the going theory was that the Ick factor was pretty much conditioned-- that if you don't loudly proclaim "ick" about such matters you are allowing for that horrrible chance that somebody might have doubts about your sexuality.

Around here, I notice that most guys are a little looser about gay PDA, real or cinematic-- instead of displaying the full-on aversion dumbshow, they will shrug and avert their eyes if they don't want to watch--too much wierd stuff going on with people of all orientations to get worked up about this stuff.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Weird aspect of San Fran Straight Guy behavior is the tendancy to indulge in flamboyant faux-flirting with their straight buddies during emotionally vulnerable moments.It's kind of sweet, but I wonder about the dynamic, and whether it is related somehow to the aversion display.Anybody else living in a gay mecca notice this?

---

Yeah, I see that occasionally here in Long Beach. I'm sure they'd deny it if it were pointed out, though.

How comfortable the straight men and boys I know are with homosexual PDA varies hugely. Age and background affect this, of course, but across all such divisions just being comfortable in their own skin also makes a big difference.

Bede, I don't disagree with any of your latter posts about Ennis and his difficulties with his sexuality. None of it makes Jack a sexual predator, though, which was the original assertion you (and Gene Shalit) made.

As for who gets to wear the label, how is that relevant? Getting to wear the label doesn't make your argument any stronger. If anyone draws broad conclusions about sexual behavior on the basis of a few scenes in one movie, they've got bigger problems than you can solve with a few posts on the internet.

The movie isn't really about sex, and it doesn't promote the idea that all gay sex is anal; the vast majority of the time Ennis and Jack are depicted together they aren't in the sack together, and there are more intimate scenes without anal sex than with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
While the guys were definitely the main characters it was made clear, to me at least, that everybody suffered and lost. And I felt for all of them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Oddly I found it sad rather than depressing but I don't exactly know how to explain the difference in my mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Perhaps not the best movie to go see after a break-up.

---

quote:

---

Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
In the story he was dry heaving. In the movie he was crying.

---

RuthW, I heard dry heaving...and tears.
Some of them were mine.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Jeez, hasn't anyone here ever cried themselves sick? Extreme emotion does things to your stomach.Doesn't have to signify revulsion.

Actually I have noticed a trend in recent cinema to have actors sob until they drool, to indicate how really worked up they are. (Kill Bill vol.II,for instance.) Was that going on?

[ 22. January 2006, 18:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Re the OP, I suspect this may not be a film we see till perhaps it comes to telly. (assuming that we will get a telly one day).

When I was a teenager I used to go see "art" films, films in Japanese, stuff that the critics in Time Out liked, that sort of thing.

Then I got interested in mainstream Hollywood stuff - as art.

Then, when I was working gruesome hours, or Casualty shifts, I really didn't have the emotional energy to watch the heavy stuff. So I deliberately saw comedies, light stuff, etc.

At the moment, we mainly seem to be watching kids' movies (we don't have kids). So the last film we saw was Narnia, before that it was Wallace and Gromit. And we would have seen Corpse Bride if only it had been on for another week.

The only "adult" movies we have seen in the past year or so are, IIRC, the Merchant of Venice and Pride and Prejudice (I don't think Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy really counts). So we tend to go see humorous stuff, comedies with happy endings. This isn't avoidant of alternative sexual orientation themes, necessarily - M of V had a very homoerotic Antonio-Bassanio relationship. And it was a strong exploration of ethnic prejudice.

As with some of the other posters, maybe you should be criticising us not for avoiding the gay issue but, in pretty much all the films we see, avoiding films with sad endings (assuming we see M of V as a comedy, broadly speaking.)
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
I hope to get to the film in the upcoming week. In the meantime I've appreciated the discussion on this thread.

Anyone else catch this in this morning's Sunday comics?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Yeesh, already? Movie's only been out a week!
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Depends on where you live. It opened December 9 around here.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Jeez, where have I been, came out Christmas around here.

Ok, I take it back, then-- as always, Boondocks is right on top of cutural trends.

Comedians and political cartoonists secretly rule the world,I'm convinced.

[ 23. January 2006, 04:13: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Caz... (# 3026) on :
 
I saw it last night, didn't know loads about it beforehand though I had a very minimal knowledge of the themes.

I felt vaguely sad for them, for what could have been.
I felt vaguely sad for their wives.
I felt vaguely angry at the culture they lived in.

But overall I really struggled to feel much, to be honest. And I'm usually such a crier at movies. The strongest thought I had all the way through was "Blimey, that's a lot of sheep"! which surprised me. Doomed romance, injustice and homophobia are all my "red rag" issues usually.

So on balance I think maybe it was just too slow moving for me. Which probably says a lot about me, given that life IS slow moving and the whole point was that this was a "death by degrees" tragedy, played out over their whole lifetimes. Perhaps I've become too dependent on high octane drama to connect with emotions, dunno...

Perhaps it just wasn't for me.
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
All cowboy movies are actually about gay men, aren't they?

No, this isn't me yanking any chains - I'm at least 65% serious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luke:
There must be a cultural shift occurring.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luke:
Brian Godawa's movie blog provides an interesting analysis of Brokeback Mountain. Its also an interesting coincidence that Imagine me & you is coming out at roughly the same time. There must be a cultural shift occurring.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luke:
Brian Godawa's movie blog provides an interesting analysis of Brokeback Mountain.

---

Well, thank you for that link, Luke. As for "interesting analysis" it was just another load of hate-filled crap from the local glue factory.

I went to see Brokeback on Tuesday evening with a girlfriend and am still haunted by the film's beauty and profound sadness. I was glad I'd read this thread beforehand, particularly iGeek's post on page 3. I thought there was nothing gratuitous about any of the sex or the violence. It was all there to tell us more about Jack and Ennis and their worlds. (Yeah, right. Of course I don't fancy Jake Gyllenhaal! ) I felt there were some similarities between it and The Shipping News, also based on a story by Annie Proulx. In the latter film, Kevin Spacey's character, Quoyle, is a pathetic loser, who finally finds redemption and hope in the wilds of Newfoundland. This is another story where the environment is a key factor. There's hope at the end, as there is at the end of Brokeback when Ennis agrees to be at his daughter's wedding.

Will be buying the DVD as soon as it's on sale, but in the meantime am going to see it again next week with Mr Ags.

[ 28. January 2006, 14:09: Message edited by: Ags ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luke:
Its also an interesting coincidence that Imagine me & you is coming out at roughly the same time. There must be a cultural shift occurring.

---

quote:

---

You picked up on that too? It was so subtle I thought I might be imagining it.

(I didn't much care for being referred to as a 'homosexualist'. Sounds too much like being an ornithologist.)

---

The rest of the site is, er, interesting if you like that sort of thing.

[ 28. January 2006, 16:56: Message edited by: Callan ]
 

---

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
Interesting?!

quote:

---

I coin the word, "homosexualism" because "gay" is a manipulative political agenda and "Homosexuality" a mythological term that tries to make it a sexual preference or a natural part of a person's sexuality. In truth, homosexualism is in fact, an "ism," an ideology and religion whose goal is to overthrow the Christian paradigm of morality and impose a status of homosexual normality on society.

---

 

---

Posted by et unam sanctam (# 10800) on :
 
My favourite bit is the last line:

quote:

---

It's all just too much preachiness and propaganda.

---

Yes Brian, it is

 

---

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
Has anyone else noticed that Luke's looney-tune movie blogger appears to be personally endorsed by Saruman? I think we should be told.

L.

[ 28. January 2006, 23:53: Message edited by: Louise ]
 

---

Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Louise:
Has anyone else noticed that Luke's looney-tune movie blogger appears to be personally endorsed by Saruman? I think we should be told.

L.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ags:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luke:
[qb] Brian Godawa's movie blog provides an interesting analysis of Brokeback Mountain.

---

I went to see Brokeback on Tuesday evening with a girlfriend and am still haunted by the film's beauty and profound sadness. I was glad I'd read this thread beforehand, particularly iGeek's post on page 3. I thought there was nothing gratuitous about any of the sex or the violence.

I've seen the film and embarassing number of times, and can't think what sex anyone's talking about. My God, the only genitals I saw were Anne Hathaway's breasts and only briefly. By the way the religious right talks it's like a gay porno flick. Nowadays Hollywood assaults us, even on the TV with more graphic sex than was shown in this gentle film.
 

---

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 
Sorry Ags, I meant to quote you! back to e-school for me!
 

---

Posted by Ags (# 204) on :
 
No problem!

And, yes, totally agree with your comments.
 

---

Posted by La Sal (# 4195) on :
 
My partner and I saw it on Thursday and I agree completely with iGeek on page3.

I believe Ennis was dry heaving because of the loss of his love and not out of any self revulsion. I'm almost sure he was dry heaving; I kept turning away from the scene not wanting to see vomit.

We cried alot and during the credits I felt eerily apart from the obvious straight, mostly elderly couples who were filing out. I felt as though the truth of the film was all too familiar and real for us but maybe not really understood by the straight crowd. Not their fault, of course, but none the less a weird feeling.

Brian Godawa is an idiot and his opinions are typical of people with blinders on who can comfortably dismiss us with his 'homosexual agenda' BS. Would he change his thinking if he had a son who came out to him, I wonder.
 

---

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by La Sal:
My partner and I saw it on Thursday and I agree completely with iGeek on page3.
We cried alot and during the credits I felt eerily apart from the obvious straight, mostly elderly couples who were filing out. I felt as though the truth of the film was all too familiar and real for us but maybe not really understood by the straight crowd. Not their fault, of course, but none the less a weird feeling.

---

Yes, but after seeing the film many will begin that thinking process which will let them in on what other people feel - that they can actually feel - the same emotions. And in God's time, humanity will come to see all other human beings as children of God.
 

---

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
I saw it last night.

Ye gods: what an emotional rollercoaster. And what a bloody fantastic film.

Apart from some morons who giggled like schoolgirls during the sex scenes and when Ennis and Jack were kissing and his wife discovered them , the cinema generally seemed to be in the same mood as me: amazed at how a movie could be so damn good at depicting their love, the loss of it, and the effect it had on those around them.

I think I'll be seeing it again soon.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luke:
Its also an interesting coincidence that Imagine me & you is coming out at roughly the same time. There must be a cultural shift occurring.

---

I really want to see this one but haven't yet-- what's the connection?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I saw it last night.

Ye gods: what an emotional rollercoaster. And what a bloody fantastic film.

I think I'll be seeing it again soon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by La Sal:
I felt as though the truth of the film was all too familiar and real for us but maybe not really understood by the straight crowd.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by La Sal:
I felt as though the truth of the film was all too familiar and real for us but maybe not really understood by the straight crowd.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is the truth of Romeo and Juliet all too real for straight people but not really understood by the gay crowd?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Apart from some morons who giggled like schoolgirls during the sex scenes and when Ennis and Jack were kissing and his wife discovered them

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luke:
Brian Godawa's movie blog provides an interesting analysis of Brokeback Mountain. Its also an interesting coincidence that Imagine me & you is coming out at roughly the same time. There must be a cultural shift occurring.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike (MovIefreaKE):
My main problem with it, though, was that I never really got the sense, especially in the middle half, that these were two men who actually loved each other.

---

I actually had a bit of problem with that too. I just had to accept in the abstract that they did. But it certainly wasn't Greta Garbo and John Gilbert by a long shot. Of course, who is these days?
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I saw the film last evening, and was stunned by how beautiful it was in all sorts of ways - the scenery, obviously, but also the way that the men's emotions and tenderness came through despite their inability to articulate in language much of what they were feeling. I was wondering what the story reminded me of, and then badman's comment on p.3 of this thread made a light-bulb go on in my head - it's Brief Encounter, intensified, modernised, and made real and gritty. I loved it.

I don't have much time for the whingey gay commentators who complain about the film being tragic - tragic love stories are the only really interesting ones, artistically speaking. Sophocles would not be feted as the greatest dramatist ever if, in a last-minute twist, Jocasta had turned out not to be Oedipus's mum, and they'd lived happily ever after. (Apologies for the spoiler there, for all who haven't seen King Oedipus )

And, on a side-note, I quite like the term "homosexualist". It makes it sound like I have a qualification in it.
 

---

Posted by Ags (# 204) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike (MovIefreaKE):

My main problem with it, though, was that I never really got the sense, especially in the middle half, that these were two men who actually loved each other. They treated the whole thing like such a terrible chore -- which it undoubtedly must have been, but I wish more had focused on the two of them actually feeling so deeply for each other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ags:
Sine, did you say something to the effect that it probably wouldn't have worked out for them anyway, even if they had felt able to leave their respective partners and live together?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_ricarno:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Apart from some morons who giggled like schoolgirls during the sex scenes and when Ennis and Jack were kissing and his wife discovered them

---

Oops. That'd be me and my friends, then. Sorry!

I think that laughing, for me, was a way of dealing with the total alien-ness of it. I'm not gay, I don't have any gay friends (as far as I know), I've never seen a gay couple kiss...it was all totally outside my frame of reference.

A good film, though. I think it's one of the films that works better if you've seen it twice and let it grow on you.

---

Here was I thinking that the largely 'straight' audience did not laugh at all where I saw it and that this would have been different ten years ago.
 

---

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 
I found it odd that what appeared to be the straight bunch in our cinema laughing at the "reunion" kiss scene. It is a powerful moment, but rather than tittering I'd have expected that gang to be gasping in horror. From my gay perspective, that scene was both touching in that these fellows had reunited and deeply troubling in that Ennis' wife had found out this deep secret which would so affect her.
 

---

Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
There was tittering throughout in the theatre when I saw it, which I found incredibly annoying, since the same parts would not have evoked a titter in a movie about a straight couple.

I found it really interesting ... visually beautiful, of course, and so many intriguing levels to the two characters and their relationshp other than just, "Look! Look! It's a movie about two men who love each other!"

I totally agree with Sine's comment that this was a relationship that was about escapism, not about being together for the long haul. I thought the visual differences between the city and home scenes of their married lives, and the idyllic nature scenes of their getaways together, made the contrast very obvious. Maybe it's not that they couldn't have had a real, long-term relationship, but that they never had the opportunity to find out whether it was "real love" that could survive the grind of everyday living or not. And I guess that's where the "tragic gay love story" element comes in -- because of the taboo in their society on homosexuality, they never had the chance to find out. But if you threw in any other element that made divorce and remarriage impossible, you could have had basically the same story about a man and woman nurturing an obsession for each other for 20 years and meeting up occasionally.

I thought the two characters were interesting. Jack seemed like the sort of person who, if he had lived in a society where a gay couple was acceptable, would have probably been able to settle down and have a happy relationship with some man (in fact, he was even willing to try it with Ennis despite societal disapproval). Ennis, on the other hand, didn't seem to me like someone who could have had a real relationship with anyone, at least not without some life-changing experience and/or a whole lot of therapy, because he was so closed-off to his own emotions. Are we to assume it was the stress of hiding his sexuality that made him that way, or other factors?

Ennis's daddy must have been a piece of work. I wondered when seeing that flashback scene if he had suspected or feared at such a young age that Ennis might "turn out gay" and had deliberately shown him the scene of what happened to the gay rancher as a warning?

I went to see it idly curious about whether it would sexy for me, as a straight woman, to see two gorgeous men get it on -- after all, there's this whole huge thing about how sexy straight men find it to watch lesbians, but no corresponding female interest in gay men having sex. Is it because we're not wired that way or because we just don't have the opportunities to see that? But while Heath and Jake were both just as pretty as could be, the way the love scenes were filmed did not (for me) encourage that kind of voyeurism. (Short version = not enough skin).

I thought it was well-acted, well-written, and thought-provoking. I still think Crash should get the Best Picture award over Brokeback, but I'd be very happy to see Heath Ledge get Best Actor. His performance was amazing.
 

---

Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
Hmm. When I saw it (I take back my previous comment that 'I have no gay friends', I wasn't thinking at the time - it's not true) I was with a bunch of bisexual friends, one of whom is an avid reader and writer of slash (q.v. - Googling it probably isn't worksafe). She got the giggles because she thought of it as soft porn.

Maybe if I'd gone with some friends who weren't so giggly about man-on-man action, the reunion scene wouldn't have been spoiled for me...
 

---

Posted by chemincreux (# 10635) on :
 
I saw the film last week, and had to sit still for some time afterwards in case I caught somebody's (anybody's) eyes and burst into tears.

I read the story (the last one in Annie Proulx's
"Close Range") some considerable time ago and recommend anyone who hasn't seen the film yet to read the book first. I agree with Ags's point that Ennis seems frightened of his obsessive feelings. That doesn't come across in the book - I think there were things the book said that the film makers could never have got away with - the overridiing sense of innocence at the start of their affair, for a start.

But something more chilling. If you read the book, you'll be aware, when watching the film, that something bad's going to happen - and you get several false alarms. It's brilliant direction, and I suspect the film does get away with more than its cautious backers anticipated.

I want to read the original and watch the film again.
 

---

Posted by Ags (# 204) on :
 
I recommend watching the film more than once. Have just returned home from seeing it the second time and I feel I learned more about the protagonists.
I cried (again), but this time not until the shirt came out of the closet. This was a relationship that was never going to make it in the real world. Not just because of the attitude of the times but because of the men involved and maybe cos it was too much linked to place and couldn't work away from the mountains. Very escapist stuff. The reality was grim.

As for whether it will beat Crash (fantastic movie!) for best picture at the Oscars, I'm not too sure. I don't know that Crash had more to say than Brokeback but it certainly said it louder. I don't envy the judges making their choice this year!

(There was a bit of sniggering tonight when Alma sees Jack & Ennis kissing. I guess it was embarrassment - tho' the audience was silent during the scenes in the tent.)

Ags (about to buy the book from Amazon.)
 

---

Posted by mrmister (# 10850) on :
 
Can I just point out that dubbing the film "bareback mountain" is offensive and homophobic.
 

---

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
Well seeing who started this thread, and chose the title for it, I hardly think you have a leg to stand on!
 

---

Posted by mrmister (# 10850) on :
 
Actually, I DO have a leg to stand on.

Homophobia is not just the preserve of supposedly straight people.

It's about internalised societal assumptions.

Calling a film which seeks to address serious issues "bareback mountain", especially in this day and age following the eighties nightmare of AIDS (yes, I remember it only too well), is homophobic.

It is immaterial whether or not the OP is considered to be beyond reproach
 

---

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
I didn't mean to imply he was beyond reproach (sorry Sine! ), simply that it seems to me his reputation on the Ship consists almost entirely of:-
1) having exceedingly good manners
2) the fact that he is homosexual

Bearing these in mind, I hardly thought that you could accuse him of homophobia, in any usual sense of the word.
 

---

Posted by mrmister (# 10850) on :
 
Read what I wrote more carefully.

It is immaterial whether the OP is considered to be beyond reproach, whether because of reputation or sexuality.

Mocking the name of the film in a homophobic way is not on. I don't give a hoot whether Sine is gay or not; calling the film "Bareback mountain" is childish and offensive.

Barebacking is having unprotected anal sex.
 

---

Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
How very kind of you to take offense on behalf of the many gay people on the Ship. Let's see how many gay Shipmates will agree with you...

...

...

***waits for days***

Nope, seems like they don't mind. Offense is in the ear of the listener. That's why comedians get away with so much.

Good to see you back on the Ship, mrmister! Have you seen the film?
 

---

Posted by mrmister (# 10850) on :
 
Yes, it was very good.

Reinforced my view as a deconstructed gay that white picket fences and homosexuality don't mix, though.
 

---

Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrmister:
Barebacking is having unprotected anal sex.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrmister:
I personally find the use of the term "bareback mountain" offensive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrmister:
If you do not give a shit about others, then why should others give a shit about you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrmister:
Can I just point out that dubbing the film "bareback mountain" is offensive and homophobic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrmister:
It would not be laughable were it a moving love story between man and woman.

It would not be laughable were it a moving tragedy between man and woman.

---

You sound pretty easy to please. Good to see you back, why not cool the hot-headedness a bit though.
 

---

Posted by mrmister (# 10850) on :
 
You wouldn't have it any other way.
 

---

Posted by Evo1 (# 10249) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 
It's okay mrmister - you're not the only one offended by the thread title. But there it is.

I'm just trying to keep a sense of humor about it, which is hard to do as, like so many, I have a certain reverence for this beautiful work of art.
 

---

Posted by Ags (# 204) on :
 
My sincere apologies to anyone I offended by being amused at the thread title. I, too, consider Brokeback Mountain to be a very beautiful work of art and would be most happy if we could get back to discussing the film itself.
 

---

Posted by fionn (# 8534) on :
 
I don't understand the hoopla surrounding The Kiss. In one of the episodes of 'Stargate: Atlantis', David Hewlett plants a much shorter but more passionate kiss on the lips of Paul McGillion. The kiss in 'Brokeback Mountain' looked more like a fumbling wrestling match.

My primary response to the movie was a sudden desire to go dancing and to plan a trip to Wyoming during the week of summer.

There was no tittering or snickering in the theater at any time.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Where I live there was no hoopla surrounding a kiss, but there was some surrounding the fuck.
 

---

Posted by fionn (# 8534) on :
 
This morning my pastor mentioned it as a movie to be spurned. I sent him an e-mail suggesting that the movie with some slight editting would be useful in the home missionary effort.

Ennis and Jack both had a huge gaping hole in their lives and a 'dash of Jesus' would have done them wonders. To see someone (even cinematically) with such a longing for love touched me deeply. Especially knowing that Jesus could possibly fill that gaping longing and allowed them to eventually come to grips with their situation. Ennis might have found the strength to admit his love and agree to live with Jack. Jack might have been able to keep his pants zipped except around Ennis.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

---

Ennis and Jack both had a huge gaping hole in their lives and a 'dash of Jesus' would have done them wonders.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?

CDL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Comper's Child:
I don't think fionn was talking about a "dash" of Jesus so much as finding some hope in Jesus Christ. Something that is denied many gay people when they are driven away from the church. There are many ways in which the film could be instructive to churchfolk.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RainbowKate:
It certainly doesn't praise adultery; if anything it does the very opposite. It shows the pain and devestation wrought upon families when people try to pretend to be something they are not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RainbowKate:
It certainly doesn't praise adultery; if anything it does the very opposite. It shows the pain and devestation wrought upon families when people try to pretend to be something they are not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
It is still adultery.

CDL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
What these men were is called married. They had taken a vow that that is their vocation. That is what they were. Every other relationship is secondary. It really doesn't matter how else you might justify their behavior. It is still adultery.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by badman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
It is still adultery.

CDL

---

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody has denied that for a married man to have a sexual relationship outside marriage, whether with a man or woman, is adultery. You are being challenged to say how the film *praises* adultery. Since you haven't seen the film, I suppose you can't say.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manda:
Part of the point CDL is that if they had been allowed to be who they were they wouldn't have got married in the first place. If they'd been allowed by the society to be together, this would have avoided much of the heartache and suffering that ensues on all sides.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Were the men married and did they have children? If the answer is yes and they followed their passions which resulted in the splitting of loyalties they committed adultery. I really don't care what people think about the blandness of my choices. My goal is holiness.

---

quote:

---

The attempt to be "who you really are" as a defense of adultery is a defense of adultery. No one has to see the movie to read the synopsis and the defense of the theme that has been posted here. Who these men really were were married.

CDL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.

---

So all those anti-sodomy laws never had any effect?
 

---

Posted by CDLauffer (# 10983) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.

---

So all those anti-sodomy laws never had any effect?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.

---

So all those anti-sodomy laws never had any effect?

---

Are you suggesting that there are never consequences for our actions or that there can be a society that can eliminate them? That is laughable. If a person wishes to do whatever they wish they are free to do it. Nothing can stop them.

CDL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manda:
Well it would be a spoiler to point out the particular consequences that ensues from them being gay, but they are certainly serious CDL, and can hardly be described as society allowing them to be themselves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RainbowKate:
It certainly doesn't praise adultery; if anything it does the very opposite. It shows the pain and devestation wrought upon families when people try to pretend to be something they are not.

---

Were the men married and did they have children? If the answer is yes and they followed their passions which resulted in the splitting of loyalties they committed adultery. I really don't care what people think about the blandness of my choices. My goal is holiness. If that isn't your choice that's your business. It's pretty clear to anyone that the point of the movie is to show that vows are secondary to passions. That is certainly not my choice for a way to live. If it's yours be proud of it. Don't pretend it's something other than it is.

I will not ever watch the movie. I don't believe adultery is a good thing.

CDL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:

I thought there were consequences for ad hominems such as you have thrown at me the last few posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:

No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Ruth,

I thought there were consequences for ad hominems such as you have thrown at me the last few posts.

---

quote:

---

The film portrays two men who decide to abandon their families to whom they had made committments. Little else matters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RainbowKate:
If society were different there is no question that the two would not have married women, but remained together.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else. The only limitation has been they can't, or shouldn't, call it marriage. It's a lie.
CDL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):

quote:

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Originally posted by RainbowKate:
If society were different there is no question that the two would not have married women, but remained together.

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Well, I think that might be overstating the case a little, though I certainly do agree with the main point you're making, RainbowKate. As I said upthread, I don't think there's a clear indication there that Jack and Ennis would necessarily have been a happy long-term couple, even in a society where gay relationships were accepted. Maybe they would have lived together for awhile and found they couldn't stand each other. Maybe they would both have ended up with other guys (or, as I think more likely, Jack would have ended up happy with another guy and Ennis still would have been alone and lonely). But you're right in that most likely they would NOT have felt pressured to marry women, start families, and then betray those wives and families through adultery.

To suggest this is a "happily ever after" love story gone wrong is, I think, to over-romanticize their relationship in a way the movie avoids doing. Because of the society they lived in and its attitudes towards gay men, Jack and Ennis' relationship never had a chance to grow and mature beyond a youthful summer romance. It might have grown into a great love; it might very well not have. The tragedy is in not having the chance to find out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CDLauffer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Manda:
Well it would be a spoiler to point out the particular consequences that ensues from them being gay, but they are certainly serious CDL, and can hardly be described as society allowing them to be themselves.

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Manda,

I think we agree, though I'm not sure.

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quote:

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The film portrays two men who decide to abandon their families to whom they had made committments. Little else matters.

CDL

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quote:

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Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?

CDL

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quote:

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No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about. Neither natural law, nor the Church, nor conscience supports homosexual actions

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quote:

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Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Whatever the case may be, my point is fairly straightforward. No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about. Neither natural law, nor the Church, nor conscience supports homosexual actions nor the abandonment of commitments no matter what the reason. I agree. Many do not. So what?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:

quote:

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Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?

CDL

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By this logic should we also refuse to read Madame Bovary?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ags:

Glad you enjoyed the film, but what on earth is a 'deconstructed gay?'

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quote:

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Originally posted by CDLauffer:

quote:

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My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else. CDL

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quote:

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Originally posted by Honeybones:
On the other hand, Im determined to see Underworld 2 before it leaves the big screen. I have seen NO thread for Underworld 2. *tsk*

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quote:

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Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712

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quote:

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Originally posted by CDLauffer:
...No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about. Neither natural law, nor the Church, nor conscience supports...abandonment of commitments no matter what the reason....

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quote:

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Originally posted by mrmister:
Can I just point out that dubbing the film "bareback mountain" is offensive and homophobic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by badman:

quote:

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Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712

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Thanks for this. It's unbelievably biphobic isn't it? Or bi-miopic anyway. In that, I think it does the film an injustice. The film is more interesting than you would guess from the review.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor: How come every gay man I know has called it that at least once?

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quote:

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Originally posted by badman:

quote:

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Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712

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Thanks for this. It's unbelievably biphobic isn't it? Or bi-miopic anyway. In that, I think it does the film an injustice. The film is more interesting than you would guess from the review.

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quote:

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Originally posted by iGeek.:
For me, Mendelsohn pegged it in his review.

One niggle, the reviewer talked about the *one* time when we saw them happy. There was one other scene, later in the film (a flashback) where Ennis was standing behind Jack, tenderly draping his arm over Jack's sholder. It stood out because tenderness between the two was so rare. But it was also silent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ags:
People's disapproval of the relationship is probably as much due to the norms of the society as religious belief.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ags:
Good question!

Perhaps I should have said 'specific religious belief.' Comper's Child referred to evangelical religion. More specifically about the impact this might have made on the characters.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Wondering if those who've seen the film have come away with any understanding of the importance of evangelical religion in the background of the main characters. Did religion have an impact on them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Jacob's name means Twist -- the actor's first name is a literal translation of his character's last name.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Wondering if those who've seen the film have come away with any understanding of the importance of evangelical religion in the background of the main characters. Did religion have an impact on them?

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Precious little, if any.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ReginaShoe:

quote:

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Originally posted by badman:

quote:

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Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712

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Thanks for this. It's unbelievably biphobic isn't it? Or bi-miopic anyway. In that, I think it does the film an injustice. The film is more interesting than you would guess from the review.

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A couple of other things I would point out about that review: first, spoilers galore, so be warned those who haven't bothered to look it up yet.

Second, he states that what makes this film fundamentally different from any other "forbidden love" story is that the heroes hate themselves for what they feel, not just the external constraints that keep them away from their beloved. I'm not so sure that's unique to this story. No doubt there are straight people who fell deeply in love with someone else when they were already married who felt pretty darn crummy about themselves at the time! (However it may have turned out.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.

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quote:

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Have any straight people on the ship seen it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's child:It is a great film and it seems you figured out how simple yet complex it is!

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Indeed i have, im the biggest critic on films ever so you know where i am if you have a queery ive seen almost everything!
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Luke:
Brian Godawa's movie blog provides an interesting analysis of [i]Brokeback Mountain

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quote:

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Originally posted by phoenix_811:
Not really surprised. Too controversial. The academy didn't want to get put at the center of the controversey.

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quote:

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Originally posted by A Feminine Force:


I must be the only person on the continent who nodded off during Brokeback. I found it shallow and tedious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I'd like Gordon to go see it and report back on his own reaction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Sometimes I've found it personally unhelpful, other times distasteful. I don't like the idea of actors being asked to engage in implied or actual intercourse on my account, even if they do it willingly. I don't like people using me as an excuse to see movies that they otherwise wouldn't, and would cause them personal difficulties in regard to their fantasy life. All the usual stuff.

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But Gordon they are not doing it on your account, they would be doing it whether or not you watched the film yourself.

Anyway I'm glad to hear you don't make a distinction between heterosexual and homosexual sex scenes, and try to avoid them both - at least you are consistent Mind you I would have thought this meant there were very few films available that you would allow yourself to see?
 

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Posted by ezlxq (# 9265) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
..I don't like people using me as an excuse to see movies that they otherwise wouldn't ...

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Could you expand on this, please?

Also, FWIW, I've seen the film in the UK. There were no inappropriate audience reactions in my cinema, with a very mixed age audience.

As explained in several places further up the thread, there is only one brief scene each of homo- and hetero- sex. The intercourse is "implied" only very lightly (UK Cert 15, Aus Cert M) and is hardly a "depiction". I don't know you, Gordon, apart from on board the Ship, but I find it difficult to understand how anyone might find these scenes "unhelpful" or "distasteful" in the context of the whole film.

e
 

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Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Sometimes I've found it personally unhelpful, other times distasteful. I don't like the idea of actors being asked to engage in implied or actual intercourse on my account, even if they do it willingly. I don't like people using me as an excuse to see movies that they otherwise wouldn't, and would cause them personal difficulties in regard to their fantasy life. All the usual stuff.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I like Ang Lee stuff and I wouldn't mind doing that. But I'm told there is a portrayal of anal sex. I try to avoid watching movies that include depictions of either hetero- or homosexual intercourse.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'd be interested in a discussion of the ethics of what we watch on another thread, more as a general question rather than one about viewing sexual intercourse.

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quote:

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I like Ang Lee stuff and I wouldn't mind doing that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Actually I've seen Crouching Tiger Hidden Whatsit but I can't remember what else. The Hulk is on my list.

I'd be interested in a discussion of the ethics of what we watch on another thread, more as a general question rather than one about viewing sexual intercourse.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ezlxq:


However, you chose join the thread and bump it up after four days' break to post a link to a highly tendentious columnist. So your point is ...?


e

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quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:
But sex is, when last I looked, very much part of the human experience, but if you find it distasteful okay.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
But I was interested by the report of the woman regarding her gay husband's departure and the effect it had on her and her children.

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quote:

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..hopes the movie helps any young gay men who are too frightened to come out for fear of hurting a girlfriend or parents

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quote:

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Originally posted by ezlxq:
And I, too, hope the movie helps young gay men who are too frightened to come out.

e

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Actually Kelly I did see The Wedding Banquet, quite some time ago on the telly. It was a hoot. And, a really good piece of film making, with attractive characters and a real warmth.

I can't remember whether it had implied sex in it or not, but obviously it was toned down for Oz TV, and TBH I'm not really watching it to keep count of whether it crosses a line or not.

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Ok, Grasshopper.

Next, see The Ice Storm --a dismal endictment of the "Me Era" indugences of the seventies suburban America. Also a good example of how Lee uses sex scenes-- not in a lush, candlelit way designed to tittilate, but in a way that informs us about the characters.

(Wedding Banquet had to have been edited. When I saw it there were some pretty hilarious sex scenes.)
 

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Posted by ezlxq (# 9265) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

quote:

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Originally posted by ezlxq:
And I, too, hope the movie helps young gay men who are too frightened to come out.

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Yes, I think we can agree on that

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Hey - thanks! So, can you try to get round to seeing this helpful film, please, pretty, please? And observe some of the (acted) anguish first-, rather than third-hand?

e
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

quote:

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Originally posted by ezlxq:
And I, too, hope the movie helps young gay men who are too frightened to come out.

e

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Yes, I think we can agree on that, at least at the level of being willing to acknowledge same-sex attraction, rather than denying it or pretending it isn't there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Pray real hard?

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Doesn't work.

Or maybe X didn't try hard enough.

e
 

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Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:

quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:
But sex is, when last I looked, very much part of the human experience, but if you find it distasteful okay.

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I can't remember where I said that I found sex distasteful. Did I?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I truly sympathesize with GC's view here regarding watching gratuitous sex (regardless whether its hetero or not) and violence

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Yeah, but it comes down to what one's definition of gratuitous is. Gratuitous to me means it's put in there for titilating effect or just to keep one amused or interested. Here you're talking about a couple of very very short scenes which have everything to do with the four major characters and their relationships.
 

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Posted by Ags (# 204) on :
 
Cross-posted with ezlxq & Comper's Child, and missed the edit window!
 

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Posted by Joyfulsoul (# 4652) on :
 
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that Bareback had gratuitous sex... (I was just speaking as a general rule...)
 

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Posted by Ags (# 204) on :
 
Sorry, Joyfulsoul - misunderstood!
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:

quote:

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I truly sympathesize with GC's view here regarding watching gratuitous sex (regardless whether its hetero or not) and violence

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Yeah, but it comes down to what one's definition of gratuitous is. Gratuitous to me means it's put in there for titilating effect or just to keep one amused or interested. Here you're talking about a couple of very very short scenes which have everything to do with the four major characters and their relationships.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Gordon, just take a great big sip of your Coca Cola at that point.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
On balance, I think I probably won't, ezlxq. I assume it's a good movie, and I don't doubt that like all good movies, there's truth in it. On whether or not it will help me understand gay friends, I can find out plenty about the anguish or beauty of gay relationships by talking to these friends, and to those who know them.

On a blindingly trivial and off topic note, a friend of mine got to kiss Heath Ledger in a game of spin the bottle. She didn't like him though, so there's a magic moment gone begging.

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