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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: ADHD and Ritalin
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
I wasn't denying the existence of ADHD. I have known children who have it.
I have also known parents who spend all their time trying to get their child diagnosed with something, anything, rather than admit that the child is not very academic.
I do think it is child abuse to keep a child constantly in supervised activities, rather than letting them have their own time and freedom. Yet I have been criticised for allowing my sons to catch buses on their own, play in the local park, or cycle off to see friends. "What if something happens?", goes up the cry.
I don't think it is child abuse to give a child ritalin if the need is clinically proven, and experience shows it works. I'm sure that the vast majority of parents are acting in that way. I'm just saying that some aren't. They have such ludicrous expectations of their children that any kind of inattention or falling behind at school is medicalised and treated. I can't quote statistics on this, but I've seen it with my own eyes.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
I'm also suggesting that keeping children constantly in supervised activities might actually cause genuine behavioural difficulties, or even neurological ones. If caged animals develop "pacing" and other odd behaviours, why shouldn't young humans?
Again, I can't prove any of it, I just speak as I observe.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Josephine:
I also was reading Moth to be saying that it was a form of child abuse to lock children up all day without sufficient energetic release and then expect them to behave in a class, and that this probably resulted in some otherwise normal kids being misdiagnosed. I didn't read it as a comment on real ADHD. I think we can all agree that over and under-diagnosis is a problem. I think we can also agree (as you can see from musician's post) that no matter what they do, it is the parents' fault if a child has ADHD. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm used to child problems being blamed on working parents, myself. I seem to recall that you and Mousethief work outside the home. That will be your problem, then. My older son is a bit neurotic and perfectionistic, and that's my fault, I expect.
[ 04. January 2006, 14:17: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
I agree with what Moth said.
Also, while there is probably some cross over between working mums and use of breakfast and after-school type daycare facilities, I don't think I'd blame working mothers for over-programming (which is a lovely neat phrase I hadn't heard before). I don't see many stay-at-home mums round here kicking the kids out to play during daylight hours either.
Personally, I'm always inclined to blame all ills on parents not working outside the home since that's the novelty factor in the great scheme of things ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I agree with what Moth said.
Also, while there is probably some cross over between working mums and use of breakfast and after-school type daycare facilities, I don't think I'd blame working mothers for over-programming (which is a lovely neat phrase I hadn't heard before). I don't see many stay-at-home mums round here kicking the kids out to play during daylight hours either.
Oops, I forgot, It's actually working mothers that are to blame. That the fathers might work 8am - 10pm to support the stay-at-home family is irrelevant.
Actually, though, for certain groups of kids, they do much better in terms of behavioral problems and school achievment if they participate in pre-school breakfast and after-care programs, because the alternative is not dancing and gamboling outside with their mothers in a breezy, clean, safe park. It's being in activities at school OR playing in needle-strewn crack-den-lined inner-city streets and homes without enough money for a good breakfast.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156
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Posted
Laura, it seems like musician was really only making one point.
I'm at private school, and as it happens, I live a pretty damn grounded life. My going to that school saps nearly all disposable income from the house, and my parents are happy to do that, probably because they didn't fancy seeing my chances go down the pan as a result of the bullying I had during my state school years (P1-P7.)
But if there's one thing I know about a lot of the people at my school, the ones with very, very healthy bank accounts, it's that a very small amount are actually happy.
I can remember a dialogue with one guy, it went something like this;
ZORRO: Hey "J", how was christmas?
"J": Crap, all I got was a laptop, a pool table and a stupid underwater sea scooter (the personal yellow ones, typicall about £300 I think)
ZORRO: Man, you're kidding right? I got a P.C game, apart from the constant family stuff it was a pretty good christmas for me!
"J": Lucky you, we went to our house in the bahamas, it's so boring!
It's really sad, I think, when you see obnoxious little prats like this guy, who cause a fuss, and will do anything to get attention. The question is why do they do it? The answer, most often, is "Daddy's away running the business all the time, and mummy's at the beauty salon with her friends," so to compensate for this, mummy and daddy buy them expensive gifts which they can't use (who the hell is going to use a sea scooter aged 14, as we were then!)
I'm not saying that it's all working parent's fault, but I am saying that day in, day out, I see the effects of what that does to kids, and I find it disturbing. I find myself thinking that maybe people should consider how much time they can give to their kids before actually having them. There's nothing wrong with running the business, and going to the beauty salon, but it's not right that you expect a child to deal with that.
Furthermore, I'd like to again reiterate my point that ADHD does exist, and to say that it isn't all the fault of such parents.
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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep
Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
I certainly don't doubt that there are a lot of people without ADHD who are diagnosed as having it.
I also don't doubt that there are a lot of people with ADHD who are not diagnosed as having it, but I rarely witness any handwringing about that.
And it matters. We have no way of knowing how many people are alcoholic, in jail, or dead because they were never diagnosed or treated. Or how many more are leading lives of quiet desperation, poor or bankrupt or shopaholic or just plain struggling to keep their lives together in a tenacious holding pattern. All these people know is that they need to get a grip on themselves, and get more discipline and better standards. But that knowledge is always overshadowed by the other knowledge, that something is wrong with them, just wrong. That they are wrong. Oh sure, everyone is a unique and worthwhile human being who is intrinsically deserving of respect... but the trouble is that they are so hopeless and infuriating that it's no wonder people get fed up with them sometimes, and they're lucky anyone puts up with them at all... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I think it's tragic that people are living their lives in this way, but I seem to be one of the few.
And as for the sexism of it all - it couldn't be that girls and women are just being left undiagnosed in unknown numbers, could it?
I can only speak from personal experience here, but I remember having my instability described as "the vapours" or being told that I "must seek help for PMS,"[1] both of which I'm pretty sure I don't have.
Could it be that wackiness, incompetence, and erratic high-strung emotionalism are seen as simply being female, only more so?
Aren't we all supposed to slap our wobbly thighs in sympathetic laughter as we identify with poor dumb Bridget Jones, who cannot do her job and is so impractical that she cannot even cook a meal? Are we not told to shriek, "that is SO just like ME!" Isn't Ally McBeal endearing, throwing shoes in restaurants and working a reference to her dysfunctional love-life into every deposition?
Everywoman is such a dizzy dame, isn't she? Maybe your expectations are too high, little girl. Your life is quite good enough for someone of your station.
You don't think, maybe, sexism might be hard on us chicks too, maybe?
[1] No, I'm not equating PMS with the vapours. I don't know anything about it. My point is that both are strictly feminine ailments.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Oops, I forgot, It's actually working mothers that are to blame. That the fathers might work 8am - 10pm to support the stay-at-home family is irrelevant.
Ah yes, but the working dads probably wouldn't believe you if you told them it was all their fault, so where would be the fun in that?
quote:
It's being in activities at school OR playing in needle-strewn crack-den-lined inner-city streets and homes without enough money for a good breakfast.
Oh yes, I'm sure you're right. Certainly I believe breakfast clubs in Glasgow have been a great success for kids many of whom who wouldn't otherwise have got breakfast at all, and there's some evidence that learning outcomes are improving as a result.
It's just that the idea of possibly being left in a school-based situation from 7 in the morning till 6 at night - which I believe would be possible here if the government met its education aims - makes my flesh creep.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
It's really sad, I think, when you see obnoxious little prats like this guy, who cause a fuss, and will do anything to get attention. The question is why do they do it? The answer, most often, is "Daddy's away running the business all the time, and mummy's at the beauty salon with her friends," so to compensate for this, mummy and daddy buy them expensive gifts which they can't use (who the hell is going to use a sea scooter aged 14, as we were then!)
See, you cite working parents but then you describe neglect that hasn't got much to do with working. You describe children whose parents don't pay very much attention to them, then give them lots of crap to compensate. Mummy in your story is not, in fact, working, but chooses to spend non-working time in a stereotypically rich woman way.
People who work don't have to work around the clock, and people who don't work don't necessarily devote their nonworking time selflessly to their kids.
musician actually made a number of points, but the main two were:
1) ADHD may be a result of the allegedly first generation of children whose mothers worked outside the home a lot and
2) ADHD may also result from the overprogramming that many middle class children in such families get.
I think neither contentions are borne out by studies of such things.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156
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Posted
Laura said;
quote:
See, you cite working parents but then you describe neglect that hasn't got much to do with working. You describe children whose parents don't pay very much attention to them, then give them lots of crap to compensate. Mummy in your story is not, in fact, working, but chooses to spend non-working time in a stereotypically rich woman way.
People who work don't have to work around the clock, and people who don't work don't necessarily devote their nonworking time selflessly to their kids.
I didn't actually say that. What I said was that the father was working all the time, clearly that's related to working. I also said that the mother doen't spend time with her kids. I don't expect anyone to spend every waking moment with their kids, but I think it's fair to say that a lot of kids don't see their parents for some of the reasons which musician described, that they're either at nursery or have a nanny in to babysit, while the mother does whatever she wants and almost never sees them.
I never suggested that the "mummy," side of things had anything to do with working.
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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep
Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Zorro:
quote:
I didn't actually say that. What I said was that the father was working all the time, clearly that's related to working. I also said that the mother doen't spend time with her kids. I don't expect anyone to spend every waking moment with their kids, but I think it's fair to say that a lot of kids don't see their parents for some of the reasons which musician described, that they're either at nursery or have a nanny in to babysit, while the mother does whatever she wants and almost never sees them.
That's awful, and most certainly has a great many disastrous and evil effects.
I don't see what it has to do with ADHD, though.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
Laura
quote:
Right. It's the fault of working parents.
No, I didn't say that. I didn't mean that either. "Fault" is part of a blame culture and I've no time for that.
I do suggest that the imbalance in many homes might/ may be partly down to parental working plus the Paxo* approach to kids free time
*Paxo = stuffing for turkeys - little seasonal allusion )
I work full time. So does psyduck. The kids have allergies to Stuff. Thank god neither is ADHD, but I think ADHD, being provable through CAT scanning, is a brain condition. As far as I know, such is not down to working parents.
The Paxo Kids might be.
Whether it's a good trend or not remains to be seen.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
When I was doing an junior attachment in an adolescent unit, about 10 years ago, the (UK) consultant pretty much refused to prescribe ritalin. It is of the amphetamine family, and his argument was that we do not really know what the effects will be of heavy use during childhood or constant use during adulthood, after 2 or 4 or 5 decades.
Even then, however, it was much more commonly in use in the States.
Ritalin use has now become much more common in the UK. We also see adults coming to outpatients who think they may have ADHD and ask for ritalin, who did not have it as children.
I imagine that if I had a child with behavioural problems, who might be helped by ritalin, I would on the one hand be passionately desirous for him/her to have anything that might help his/her chances in life. On the other hand, I would have grave misgivings about dosing a child with such a medication if I could possibly avoid it.
I also have a lot of reservations about the idea that a) 3-4% -or more- of the general population have ADHD and b) most or all of these people should be on some variety of amphetamine. The differential diagnoses for adult ADHD are often bipolar disorder (manic depression) or personality disorder; groups of patients I would strongly advise to avoid amphetamines. I don't have any easy answers, I'm just hoping that the American National Institute of Mental Health has pulled its finger out and is doing a load of research on ritalin and its long term effects. Preferably not funded by the drug companies.
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
First, Moth, I thought you were saying that giving Ritalin to a child diagnosed with ADHD was a form of child abuse. I've heard that before, so I mistakenly understood that to be what you were saying. I'm sorry for misunderstanding.
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
We have no way of knowing how many people are alcoholic, in jail, or dead because they were never diagnosed or treated.
Unfortunately, we do.
This annotated bibliography includes the following entry:
quote:
Rosler M; Retz W; Retz-Junginger P; Hengesch G; Schneider M; Supprian T et al. Prevalence of attention deficit-/hyperactivity disorder (AND) and comorbid disorders in young male prison inmates. European Archives of Psychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience 254(6): 365-371, 2004. (55 refs.)
Objective This study was performed to evaluate the prevalence of ADHD as well as comorbid conditions among young male prison inmates. ... Results The overall prevalence of ADHD according to DSM-IV was 45 %. ... Conclusion The prevalence of DAA/HCD or ADHD in young adult prison inmates is significantly elevated when compared to non-delinquent controls. Generally the population of young adult male prison inmates exhibits a considerable psychiatric morbidity. Of the total sample, 64 % suffered from at least 2 disorders. Only 8.5 % had no psychiatric diagnoses.
This abstract on PubMed states:
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One hundred two inmates were interviewed and tested to determine epidemiological rates of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and depression in an adult male prison population. ... Diagnosable ADHD was found to occur in 25.5 percent of the inmates
This report of a study done in Norway found that
quote:
Forty-six percent of the prisoners exceeded the cutoff score of 46 for ADHD on the Wender Utah Rating Scale, and another 18 percent scored in the screening window of 35 to 45.
Given that the rate of ADHD in the general population is estimated at 3 to 5 percent, the fact that every study I have ever seen (and I've looked at bunches of them, going back many years) shows that the percentage of male prisoners with ADHD is not less than 25%, and may be more than 70% (depending on the study, which prison, and the criteria used to determine diagnosis), I think it's fair to say that the under-diagnosis and under-treatment of ADHD is a much larger social problem than the over-diagnosis and over-treatment.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Right... I guess we do know how many people are in jail with ADHD. I was aware of studies to that effect so I shouldn't have lumped the prison population in with all the other people whose lives waste away without anyone else ever noticing.
You can't be treated for ADHD without anybody knowing it, but you can be an alcoholic without anybody ever finding out, and you can crash your car without anybody ever knowing that your undiagnosed ADHD was the cause of your accident.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
I, as a teacher, don't think that parents are to blame for ADHD.
What I have seen are kids who simply don't look at things the same way as everyone else, and don't respond to the environment the same as everyone else.
I simply made adjustments on how I interacted with them and how long I expected them to pay attention to me or to what they were doing. Some of that was simply me saying, "Are you sure that you are finished? Why didn't you do {blank}?" Usually, they would go back and say "Whoops, I didn't mean to do that." and fix it. If they didn't, then usually it had to do with them simply being their age.
The one child that I remember vividly had behavior problems on top of his ADHD. I quickily figured out that he was a gifted child and simply quickly figured things out, got bored, and then moved on with or without teacher assistance (usually without and usually driving the other kids nuts!). Once I set up a system to let him do other things when he had finished his work to my satisfaction (AKA I had to agree that he was done - he often wouldn't finish because of his ADHD) we had no more problems.
But I can't blame my kids behavior on what the parents do. I know that the kids that I teach can adapt to what is going on in my room, if I remember that every child is different and give them time and space to be who they are, not what I wish they could be.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Horatio Harumph
Shipmate
# 10855
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Posted
I find it interesting that not much is ever mentioned about AADD (Adult Attention Deficit Disorder).
I am guessing the majority of people diagnosed with ADHD are done so at an early age, as a child or young person?
However, once your over a certain age, if your diagnosed with ADHD Ritalin is not then an option, or it didnt use to be. That may well have changed.
Why was and maybe still is Ritalin only acceptable for children to start and use as a medication, and not for adults?
My intellectual knowledge on this subject is quite poor I am afraid, but I try and am trying my best to learn as much as I can, and to make sense of the experience I have had of an older brother with ADHD, who was diagnosed as a young person, but "apparently" to late for any support to be given to our family, in any shape or form, and also the experience of supporting other adults with ADHD.
Lookin
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www.helenblogs.com
@helen_a13
Chocolate is proof that God wants us to be happy.
Posts: 2857 | Registered: Jan 2006
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andrewschmidt
Shipmate
# 10822
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Posted
My wife is studying to be a teacher, and I helped her type an asignment which may have some bearing, so please excuse a total lack of references, but this comes from my memory of typing her assignment whilst high on my 8th cup of coffee (instant, not percolated I want sympathy ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) ).
The subject of her paper was CAPD (Central Auditory Processing Disorder), a disorder which was 'apparantly' frequently misdiagnosed as ADHD, having as it did many of the same behavioral symptoms. her paper posited that one of the possible causes could be the modern tendancy for young people to be open to multiple media simultaniously. The treament difference was however great since this is a case in which ritalin will not work (there being no chemical brain dysfunction), but may indicate a reason for misdiagnosis.
Andrew
Posts: 73 | From: SEQ Australia | Registered: Dec 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lookin:
I find it interesting that not much is ever mentioned about AADD (Adult Attention Deficit Disorder).
I don't distinguish between any two disorders. When I say I have ADHD, the fact that I'm an adult means I have adult ADHD.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Lookin:
quote:
However, once your over a certain age, if your diagnosed with ADHD Ritalin is not then an option, or it didnt use to be. That may well have changed.
Why was and maybe still is Ritalin only acceptable for children to start and use as a medication, and not for adults?
I didn't get any treatment as a child, except a brief trial of Ritalin when I was three, followed by the discredited Feingold diet (well, my parents said it was the Feingold diet, but they only followed the 1% of it that made sense to them (or that they could cope with and wanted to do anyway, if you ask me)). In other words, no effective treatment until I was re-diagnosed at age 25.
Anyway. Ritalin is a stimulant. Give it to a hyperkid and the kid calms down. Hey, wait a minute! Stimulants don't calm you down! That means it must be a paradoxical effect! Paradoxical effects are effects that are the opposite of the ones you'd expect, and they happen in children and the elderly. Therefore, it was assumed that Ritalin wouldn't work on teens and adults.
So, well, then I guess somebody must have given Ritalin to a hyperteen or hyperdult and found that it worked, so it must not be a paradoxical effect after all. Oh.
Anyway, it's not licenced to treat adult ADHD but there's no reason why a specialist can't prescribe it for adults anyway.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Horatio Harumph
Shipmate
# 10855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I don't distinguish between any two disorders. When I say I have ADHD, the fact that I'm an adult means I have adult ADHD.
Thats fair enough. And indeed you dont hear alot about AADD and thats why I suppose.
And Telepath, I hear what your saying, and I think there are always going to be those people who are "classed" as being plain old disruptive or whatever you wanna call it, before and if they ever are diagnosed with ADHD.
I know there were some talk about using ADHD as an excuse or diagnosing it when a person dosnt actually have it, but I think it works the other way round, that it isnt diagnosed all the time when it should be.
Lookin
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www.helenblogs.com
@helen_a13
Chocolate is proof that God wants us to be happy.
Posts: 2857 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Lookin:
quote:
And Telepath, I hear what your saying, and I think there are always going to be those people who are "classed" as being plain old disruptive or whatever you wanna call it, before and if they ever are diagnosed with ADHD.
Quite so. And of course, if a person wants to be disruptive, Ritalin is hardly going to stop them. It doesn't control your behaviour for you, it only provides you with an opportunity for self-control. A truly disruptive person on Ritalin would probably just become more efficient at causing disruption
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
I heard a lecture from an adult with ADHD. He had grown up in (IIRC) Glasgow in the 60s. He spoke of being able to recall how many bricks were in the wall outside his headteacher's room, because he'd been sent out of class so often over the years.
He recalled being called "a space cadet" etc in those enlightened days.
He also spoke of how he wasn't paying any attention in class on account of his ability and prefered choice of activity. He was replaying a film in his head. He could remember all dialogue, scenes etc. No trouble in using his brain, just that he wasn't able to focus on the task in class.
This guy wondered why ADHD didn't mention "alternative focus ability" because many folk he knew with ADHD had it.
He also said that when his ritalin ran out ( he lived in the USA as an adult) he drank Mountain Dew. It worked so well in an emergency that his family insisted on having a spare case of it just in case.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
Anyway, it's not licenced to treat adult ADHD but there's no reason why a specialist can't prescribe it for adults anyway.
The side effects, according to the British National Formulary, include
- insomnia
- restlessness
- irritability
- excitability
- nervousness
- night terrors
- euphoria
- tremor
- dizziness
- headache
- convulsions
and so on, as for dexamfetamine sulphate (that is about 25% of the list by length of that group of side effects).
Other, specific side effects include
- depression
- confusion
- rash
- various clotting disorders
and again a lengthy list continues.
The cautions for both dexamfetamine, with which it is listed, and ritalin, say
quote:
data on safety and efficacy in long term use not complete
There are also special cautions in children, listed again with dexamphetamine, re growth retardation and also
quote:
In psychotic children, may exacerbate behavioural disturbances and thought disorder
I would have thought all this was an excellent reason for a specialist to be cautious in prescribing a potentially dangerous medication off licence.
Disclaimer, disclaimer, not medical advice and all that.
[ 05. January 2006, 11:31: Message edited by: welsh dragon ]
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bishop of Stortford
Shipmate
# 5653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
I imagine that if I had a child with behavioural problems, who might be helped by ritalin, I would on the one hand be passionately desirous for him/her to have anything that might help his/her chances in life. On the other hand, I would have grave misgivings about dosing a child with such a medication if I could possibly avoid it.
Yep, well that's actually why I started this thread. And I've found the opinions and insights you've all given have been extremely helpful, so thank you to all who have posted.
Posts: 176 | From: Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
welshdragon, I said no reason why a specialist can't prescribe.
If I'd said there was no reason why a specialist would not fork over the speed to anyone and everyone no questions asked, I would now be saying "egad, I never thought of that."
I would expect a specialist to have thorough knowledge of the side effects and potential risks, and to have done a thorough evaluation of the patient, and to have taken the evaluations of other professionals into account, before deciding on a trial; and that, if they considered the benefits not to be worth the harm or potential harm, not to proceed.
I didn't spell it out explicitly because that is the least one would expect of a competent and ethical specialist. Mind you, I also didn't explicitly spell out that the putative specialist is assumed arguendo to be competent and ethical, since incompetent and/or unethical behaviour is a different category of problem.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I have worked a lot with children that have ADHD, and have seen that Ritalin can help. However, I think it is a very blunt instrument with rather severe side effects. Everytime I help a child taking this medicine I can't help thinking that I'm somehow feeding him poison.
I really hope that some more refined medicines with less severe side effects will be developed in the future.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Everytime I help a child taking this medicine I can't help thinking that I'm somehow feeding him poison.
If the side effects seem that bad to you, LeRoc, I'd raise it as an issue. Maybe the kid needs a different dosage, a different formulation, or a different treatment regime.
OTOH if the kid seems happy, or if you feel this way every time, it's probably more your issue than theirs.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I worked as an Activities Councillor for these children, and as a volunteer, so I would only discuss their medication if I really felt there was something wrong.
Maybe it is my issue, and I definitely don't know much about the pharmaceutical side of ADHD, but I have always felt that Ritalin is quite a strong chemical.
Like I said: it definitely helps to control the condition and to get forward for many children. But even if they are happy with it, I would always be in favour of continuing research, also towards medicines with less side effects.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
I prefer Ritalin because it's been around for so long and is so heavily researched, not to mention that I don't get any side effects and, if I did, I could reasonably expect them to be easy enough to manage and/or to go away if I stopped taking it.
There are alternatives such as Strattera, a non-stimulant. I haven't tried it as it's too newfangled for me, but I don't suppose Strattera will be the last nonstimulant treatment they ever invent.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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christianjimmy
Shipmate
# 1820
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
Anyway. Ritalin is a stimulant. Give it to a hyperkid and the kid calms down. Hey, wait a minute! Stimulants don't calm you down! That means it must be a paradoxical effect! Paradoxical effects are effects that are the opposite of the ones you'd expect, and they happen in children and the elderly. Therefore, it was assumed that Ritalin wouldn't work on teens and adults.
So, well, then I guess somebody must have given Ritalin to a hyperteen or hyperdult and found that it worked, so it must not be a paradoxical effect after all. Oh.
As far as I remember from my Psych. degree, the reason why Ritalin (as a stimulant) worked was that effectively it over-stimulated the brain, leading to reduced levels of activity across the board. So not a paradoxical effect, rather harnessing the stimulation to smother the associated behaviours deriving from ADHD or ADD. I was quite surprised when I learnt this, and at first questioned the ethical issues associated - however that was entirely in the abstract, and since then have come across a number of people with ADHD who have been helped enormously by using Ritalin to subdue their over-activity, and my wishy-washy theoretical problems strangely disapeared...
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[on discovering that 'Happy Birthday' was composed in 1924]
Alan Davies: What did people sing in 1923, for goodness' sake? They got the cake out and everyone just stood about in a slightly awkward silence?
Posts: 411 | From: That small insignificant country next to Wales... | Registered: Nov 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by christianjimmy:
As far as I remember from my Psych. degree, the reason why Ritalin (as a stimulant) worked was that effectively it over-stimulated the brain, leading to reduced levels of activity across the board.
Except that this rarely happens with non-ADHD kids. Either the stimulant does nothing, or it sends them pinging off the walls. There's a reason stolen Ritalin prescriptions are sold on the street, and it's not because they calm people down.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spong
Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
And as for the sexism of it all - it couldn't be that girls and women are just being left undiagnosed in unknown numbers, could it?
Or it could be genetic. As I said earlier, there seems to be some connection with autistic spectrum disorders, and they are about five times more common in males than females.
ASD diagnosis is also increasing similarly spectacularly. There's a lot of disagreement about whether this is a genuine increase in numbers or just a reduction in previous underdiagnosis. However, the 'blame it on the parents' approach does echo the 'refrigerator parenting' that was supposed to be the cause of autism thirty years ago.
Spong
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Spong
The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams
Posts: 2173 | From: South-East UK | Registered: Oct 2001
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christianjimmy
Shipmate
# 1820
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by christianjimmy:
As far as I remember from my Psych. degree, the reason why Ritalin (as a stimulant) worked was that effectively it over-stimulated the brain, leading to reduced levels of activity across the board.
Except that this rarely happens with non-ADHD kids. Either the stimulant does nothing, or it sends them pinging off the walls. There's a reason stolen Ritalin prescriptions are sold on the street, and it's not because they calm people down.
Sorry, yes, should have said, (AFAIK) it over-stimulates the brains of ADHD kids because their brains are at an already elevated level of activity, so further stimulating it sends their already heightened level of activity into overdrive, and thus smothers the effects of hyper-activity. With non-ADHD kids (with lower base levels of brain activity) it just sends them wild.
And yes, there is quite a market for stolen Ritalin prescriptions in certain playgrounds around the US and UK...
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[on discovering that 'Happy Birthday' was composed in 1924]
Alan Davies: What did people sing in 1923, for goodness' sake? They got the cake out and everyone just stood about in a slightly awkward silence?
Posts: 411 | From: That small insignificant country next to Wales... | Registered: Nov 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Which is strong evidence for the existence of ADHD - give Ritalin to someone who doesn't have it, and they become more hyper and uncontrollable.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
originally posted by christianjimmy:
quote:
And yes, there is quite a market for stolen Ritalin prescriptions in certain playgrounds around the US and UK...
So I hear, and I can't imagine anything more pathetic. It reminds me of Adrian Mole getting his Airfix plane stuck to his nose when he decides to try his hand at glue-sniffing.
Originally posted by Karl:
quote:
Which is strong evidence for the existence of ADHD - give Ritalin to someone who doesn't have it, and they become more hyper and uncontrollable.
Or they might not. They might clean off the top of their desk, sharpen some pencils, and settle down for a nice evening doing their taxes. You just don't know.
That's why it's not recommended to try and diagnose it by giving the patient some Ritalin and seeing what happens.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Bishop of Stortford
Shipmate
# 5653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by christianjimmy:
it over-stimulates the brains of ADHD kids because their brains are at an already elevated level of activity, so further stimulating it sends their already heightened level of activity into overdrive, and thus smothers the effects of hyper-activity. With non-ADHD kids (with lower base levels of brain activity) it just sends them wild.
[/QB]
Hmmm.. I've been reading up on this, and what I have read is that the brain of an ADHD child is not over-active. It's the body that's over-active because the part of the brain that regulates active behaviour is not working properly. Ritalin is supposed to work by stimulating the inactive brain, which allows the child to control themself. Is that correct, or not. Or is it all just a question of un-provable theories?
Posts: 176 | From: Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
originally posted by christianjimmy:
quote:
And yes, there is quite a market for stolen Ritalin prescriptions in certain playgrounds around the US and UK...
So I hear, and I can't imagine anything more pathetic. It reminds me of Adrian Mole getting his Airfix plane stuck to his nose when he decides to try his hand at glue-sniffing.
Originally posted by Karl:
quote:
Which is strong evidence for the existence of ADHD - give Ritalin to someone who doesn't have it, and they become more hyper and uncontrollable.
Or they might not. They might clean off the top of their desk, sharpen some pencils, and settle down for a nice evening doing their taxes. You just don't know.
That's why it's not recommended to try and diagnose it by giving the patient some Ritalin and seeing what happens.
I understand from Mrs Backslider that this is what happens when kids without ADHD are misdiagnosed and given Ritalin. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does, that's what happens.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
I am too old to have been diagnosed with ADHD although in retrospect it most certainly had to have been a major factor in my struggles in school. I remember trying to complete math tests and being the only one in class unable to complete them in the prescribed amount of time. The problems were easy enough, but I couldn't concentrate long enough to finish the test. It started in first grade and continued at least through early adulthood.
I am confident that with today's understanding I would have been diagnosed and treated, and that my life would have been the better for it.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishop of Stortford:
I've been reading up on this, and what I have read is that the brain of an ADHD child is not over-active. It's the body that's over-active because the part of the brain that regulates active behaviour is not working properly. Ritalin is supposed to work by stimulating the inactive brain, which allows the child to control themself. Is that correct, or not. Or is it all just a question of un-provable theories?
No, you're absolutely right. This article explains that the evidence base strongly supports the idea that ADHD is largely the result of having smaller and hypo-functional lateral prefrontal cortices.
This article, which is a bit more "layman friendly," says:
quote:
ADHD sufferers had less activity in the right frontal lobe of their brains than those without the disorder.
The area of the brain that is less active in children with ADHD is part of an ‘Attention network’. This network is activated by people without the disorder in order to concentrate or control themselves. The particular brain region seen to be underactive in people with ADHD normally grows and becomes more active with age. However, in children with ADHD it does not seem to mature so quickly.
The so-called paradoxical effect is a result of the fact that the part of the brain that allows you to inhibit response -- allows you to choose not to pay attention to something, not to say the first words that popped into your head, not to move when your body wants to move -- is under-active. When you stimulate that area of the brain, it allows you to inhibit inappropriate behaviors and inappropriate responses to distracting stimuli.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lumpy da Moose
Shipmate
# 9038
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Posted
To my own peril, I'm going to post without reading all the 3 pages of postings already; I will attempt to address some of what the OP was looking for.
In my experience, I suspect that a lot of parents are looking for ways of dealing with boisterous children without having to actually assert some discipline. This is NOT always the case, but I think there is a tendency to want to medicate rather than deal.
Those of us who are ADD/ADHD and/or have children with the affliction can definitely tell you that it is NOT an imaginary disorder. I have been through it as a child, back when methylphenidate was considered a bit of an experimental treatment for the affliction. I very clearly remember hearing the word "hyperkinetic" applied to me and/or my behavior. I also remember very clearly how easily I was distracted by such seemingly simple things as the patter of classmate's shuffling feet while in the classroom; it is a memory snippet that is quite clear even today. There were other such things as hearing the birds sing, or watching the rain. I remember distinctly my exasperated boredom at having to fill out a sheet with 100 squares each number 1-100, for probably the 4th or 5th time in the first grade. I had successfully completed the task the first time-- let's move on! Most of my school years (and a LOT of my adult years) were filled with boring repetetive tasks which I already mastered easily. I had a tough time sitting still (sometimes still do, but now I can get up from the desk without getting yelled at), and was out of my seat a lot. I had an exceptionally difficult time working on things that required an extended amount of concentration and that I was not interested in such as math. I could sit and read interesting books for hours and often my folks had to make me go out on play. I do NOT remember actually taking anything for this as a child, though my dad claims I did. I asked him if it worked, and he said, "Oh yeah." It must not have been for very long term, more than a few weeks at most or I would remember it.
I saw almost all the same behaviors in my son as he grew up. This was NOT from environment, as his mom and I divorced when he was 2 and he lived primarily with her. He would spend visitation time with me, but not the ins and outs of everyday life. When he was attending a small private Christian school and had smaller classes, the teacher there tapped his energy to help with other students or get put on special projects. When he began to attend public school where such activity appears to be frowned upon, he ran into disciplinary problems. We did the whole gamut of testing and finally tried him out on Ritalin. Seemed to work OK for him without too many side effects, though he would get a little whiney or weepy when he "crashed" at the end of the day.
Currently, my youngest stepson has the "H" part of it real bad. He does tend to get a bit zombie-like when medicated (which I didn't notice with my own son, btw). He really is a kid out of control and no amount of disciplining works with him. He just doesn't remember being told not to do something you pointed out to him 10 minutes ago. Yet he tests as above-normal in intelligence and has an extensive vocabulary for a 7 year old. As in my oldest (and me), things that interest him can hold his attention for hours-- a good dinosaur book, cetain movies, GameBoy, whatever. Sit him down to do his homework and you almost have to shackle him to the desk, and even then unless the place is silent as a tomb anything will distract. Medication does tend to help him here, but he takes enough that it takes away his appetite and he doesn't eat much. My stepdaughter who is 11 should be taking her Straterra (and refuses vehemently to do so-- everything makes her barf, so she says) and needs it because she too is very scatterbrained and could come in the house with her books, drop them on the floor, and then claim she has "no idea" where they are-- she dosn't remember bringing them home. She also has an extremely difficult time with doing homework. The middle stepson is just now 15 and getting more focused, but he has trouble from time to time. Mrs. Lumpy is the only non-ADD/ADHD one of the bunch and I'm sure we all drive her up the wall on occasion.
I can tell you for certain about the children under my care that not one of them has been misdiagnosed or given meds just to shut them up. I know my son gets his honestly from me. I don't know my other kids dad well enough to say for sure, but Mrs. Lumpy claims that he has those tendencies as well.
As for "medicating your kids will make them drug users," I think this is a load of dung. Matter of fact, I read in one of the many books I've been through on this subject that NON-medicated ADD/ADHD kids tend more toward drugs looking for some calming effect on their restlessness. I can say this certainly resonates with me, as I would suggest that was my experience. Meditation, btw, did not work very well for me. It wasn't until I was in college for the third time that someone turned me onto illicit amphetamines and I found I could actually snap off the distractions and really dive into my work, whether it be a mid-term exam in math-for-dumb-English-majors or when putting together my term paper for my lit. class. That right there speaks volumes.
I spent many years berating myself for not being able to just do "normal work" like other kids were easily able to do. I didn't and don't want my kids to face that same issue which will follow them all the rest of their lives.
I don't doubt there are a lot of people seeking to get their kids medicated so they don't have to take responsibility for them. However, there are some who really do need the help.
And that's all I have to say about that.
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member, Our Ladye of the Bandwidthe and All Angels
Posts: 1035 | From: Gulf Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Lumpy da Moose:
quote:
In my experience, I suspect that a lot of parents are looking for ways of dealing with boisterous children without having to actually assert some discipline. This is NOT always the case, but I think there is a tendency to want to medicate rather than deal.
To be pedantic, the first choice of such parents was probably to do nothing, rather than deal. It takes effort to get to the medication, after all. Why crawl over a mile of broken glass if you can tolerate just sitting in the same spot?
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Horatio Harumph
Shipmate
# 10855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
To be pedantic, the first choice of such parents was probably to do nothing, rather than deal. It takes effort to get to the medication, after all. Why crawl over a mile of broken glass if you can tolerate just sitting in the same spot? [/QB]
ouch ouch ouch ...
do you seriously think thats the case?
that is seriously harsh!
I have a whole range of things I want to type in the response to that commment AND the one that was in reply to, But I am gonna be sensible, go away and think on it before I post, because I am so wound up at the moment, that people make those sort of assumptions that I would probably break the rules if I were to post right now.
Lookin
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www.helenblogs.com
@helen_a13
Chocolate is proof that God wants us to be happy.
Posts: 2857 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
I think it's the case that if there exist parents who medicate but do nothing else to deal with the problem, there are probably also parents who don't even medicate to deal with the problem.
It isn't particularly easy to get diagnosis, to get treatment subsequent to diagnosis, and to maintain the treatment once you've got it, and I would not be surprised if some parents chose to deal with the problem by doing nothing at all. And why should they when they're only going to get a big pile of hassle, suspicion and societal condemnation for their trouble?
The only reason to bother in the first place is if the difficulties have escalated to the point where they're forced to. Some parents' lives may never be made so uncomfortable that it forces them to act. (This is not the same as making a conscious decision to pursue no treatment of any kind, BTW, which may or may not be a good decision in any particular case.)
I don't see why that's harsh, I just think it's realistic.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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AFSkypilot
Shipmate
# 10498
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Posted
I have to say that I disagree any attempts to use medication just "to control the kids."
The way I approach the problem is to try to use some simple disciplining techniques by teaching parents--and teachers--the belief behind most misbehaviors and suggesting ways to counter the misbehavior mostly by allowing the kids to experience the consequences of the behavior they chose.
Someone much earlier said ADHD is a rule out diagnosis. Not exactly. If a child is acting out many different things should be considered before arriving at the ADHD diagnosis: diet; environment; history of abuse; family history--most importantly history of alcohol/drug abuse in the family. A complete physical and psychsocial assessment should be done. If there is no other explanation for the acting out, try giving a mild stimulant, such as coffee to see what the reaction is.
Even if it is determined that a child does have ADHD and a medication is chosen, child and family therapy is still important to help the child learn to make more responsible decisions.
Posts: 130 | From: Land of the Cougars | Registered: Oct 2005
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AFSkypilot
Shipmate
# 10498
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Posted
May I make a suggestion?
For those who might want to learn more about this disorder, go to: CHADD
Posts: 130 | From: Land of the Cougars | Registered: Oct 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
AFSkyPilot, good points, though I would like to make the point that ADHD does not solely manifest itself in misbehaviour.
I know you are not doing this, AFSkyPilot, but a lot of discussion about ADHD is couched in terms of what the observer wants and expects, whatever that is.
When you take all this away, the person with ADHD is still there, still has ADHD, and might still need help in terms of what they want, not only in terms of how they affect others.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Beautiful Dreamer
Shipmate
# 10880
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Posted
This is to the OP
I have heard of ADHD and I can say that it is very real. It is more than just not being able to sit down when told to, it is more like not being able to concentrate on anything even if you want to. Adults can have it too. I know, I am bipolar and we have a lot of symptoms in common. If someone has ADHD, they can benefit greatly from medication and therapy.
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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
Posts: 6028 | From: Outside Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2006
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
AFSkypilot, why would you assume, if a child is having difficulties, that the parents need to be taught "simple disciplining techniques" and that the main things to consider are "diet; environment; history of abuse; family history--most importantly history of alcohol/drug abuse in the family"?
I ask because that's the sort of stuff we kept hearing, until we finally got Littlest One to an incredible neurologist who was able to identify the root causes of his behavioral difficulties. It wasn't that he was oppositional, or defiant, or making bad choices. He was refusing to do things that were, in fact, impossible for him to do, because of his complex neurological impairments. But no one at the school, and no one involved in mental or behavioral health, ever considered any possibilities other than lousy parenting and a kid who made bad choices.
Are mental health counselors taught to look for signs of sensory or motor impairments, or to consider the effects of disability on behavior?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Well, Josephine, we've got to be clean-living model citizens because the normal folk have outsourced their Puritan guilt onto us We have to do all the weight training, and the Seven Habits, and the nourishing yet thrifty menu plans, and the one-and-only one elegant glass of red wine with our organic supper (for the good of our arteries), and the life coaching, and the soothing yoga, and the wholesome family board game night, so they don't have to.
As a reward, we get to write all the beautifully penned thank-you and condolence letters that normal people don't have time to write because they have to watch telly and drive cars, and grownup stuff like that ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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