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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: ADHD and Ritalin
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Bishop of Stortford
Shipmate
# 5653
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Posted
I've just come across this scandal, and I wondered whether anyone else had heard of this. I might not have believed it but I've trawled the internet, and it's reported all over the place. British and American children are being labelled with a mysterious disorder called "ADHD", and given mind-altering drugs to fix them. All because they won't sit still when they're told to. Or that's how I read all of this.
Have any other shipmates heard of this scandal, or perhaps got personal experience or expertise in the field. Is it really happening, or is it just a very pervasive scare story?
[ 14. February 2006, 03:43: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
Posts: 176 | From: Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156
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Posted
As far as I know it's almost certain that ADHD is an actual medical condition. It's also true that ritalin has been prescribed for it, and is, at least in the UK, the subject of some controversy.
It's been known for Ritalin to lead to withdrawnness, depression and apparently sometimes suicide. It has also been suggested that it is partly to blame for the taking of drugs in later life.
ADHD is also a lot more than "not being able to sit down when they're told to," it can be a serious problem, and people with it can struggle enormously at school.
Thats about all I know on it I'm afraid.
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It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep
Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
I read several articles on this last year, but don't have the references to hand at the moment. It would appear to be true. In France at any rate the same technique is used on adults too, and has been dubbed the 'camisole chimique' or 'chemical straightjacket'.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I think it's like anything else. It's like people saying that anti-depressants are over-prescribed for people who just need to pull themselves together and cheer up. Yes, there is a real set of behaviors described as ADHD, and yes, some people who exhibit these behaviors are helped by Ritalin. But all behavior exists on a continuum and it's not always easy to judge what's "normal childhood" and what's something diagnosable and needing treatment. And even if you've established that the behavior is beyond the parameters of "normal" and needs treatment, there's no guarantee that drug treatment is the best or only option, or that it will work, or that the side-effects won't be so severe as to make it a bad idea. It's just an immensely complex question that is never easy to call. Ritalin probably is being overprescribed by some doctors, in some places, as an apparent "quick fix" to problems that may have a host of other possible solutions. But that doesn't necessarily make Ritalin A Bad Thing in and of itself, any moreso than any other medication.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
I think that some few doctors are very quick to prescribe drugs for children that display "difficult" or "challenging" behaviour.
We were having difficulty with our autistic 10yr old,( basically he was not sleeping well and so of course neither were we) and had approached the consultant to see if we could get some Melatonin to help him. The consultant was very happy to write a prescription and asked if we wanted some Prozac for him as well. We were horrified as the consultant had not even seen him.
A friend has a daughter in a home for adults with learning difficulties and noticed a change in her behaviour. She then found out that her daughter had been prescribed very heavy doses of drugs used to treat schizophrenia in order to keep her quiet during the day. The home had recently cancelled the trips to day centres and were having problems amusing the residents.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Spong
Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518
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Posted
It's the Torygraph, to begin with, which is not going to be the first paper to accept the idea that children who are 'misbehaving' aren't just naughty boys who would all be sorted out by a good flogging.
I don't know much about ADHD except that there is sometimes a link with autistic spectrum disorders (which I know about as a parent) and with dyslexia. But I have heard some genuine case histories about living with ADHD, and no, it isn't living with a 'naughty child', it is (or can be, anyway) living with a child who is literally incapable of concentrating on one thing for more than a minute or two at a time, and who has to forever be zooming around smashing into things. There appears to be a good FAQ here .
There's a separate issue over whether some children are being labelled ADHD who are just boisterous, and over whether drug treatment with Ritalin rather than diet management is always the best approach. But for all of these disorders, one of the things that you get really annoyed at, as a parent, is being told 'all boys are like that'. All boys may do something that looks vaguely similar to an outsider, but there is a huge difference between them and those with a disorder.
Spong
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Spong
The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams
Posts: 2173 | From: South-East UK | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Being someone with ADHD who has profited from Ritalin, let me say:
1. ADHD is real, and
2. Ritalin works.
As CS Lewis said, the proper response to misuse is not disuse but proper use. Sure there are some people who don't really have ADHD who are diagnosed with same; sure there are people who are prescribed Ritalin who don't need it. This doesn't negate either of my two points.
I don't mind carefully controlled studies which indicate that there is overdiagnosis and overprescription. I can't stand reckless assholes (aresholes) who loudly proclaim it's all hokum. If the shoe fits.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I've taught several kids (mostly boys) with ADHT - when their behaviour was awful, it was because they hadn't taken their pill or they were close approaching the time when it was due. The pill made a lot of difference, though I couldn't help thinking it was a form of mind control and that it was the school system's expectations, not the individual behaviour, which was 'mad'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
More of the same. Yes, there is such a thing as ADHD (shudder). It runs in my family. It is VERY different from a normally boisterous child, and even from one hyped up on sugar or from going to Disneyland. And it's not the child's fault (or the parents').
Ritalin helped my family. I've known others who found simple caffeine enough to calm the symptoms. But if you have a child with real ADHD, you'll take help wherever you can find it. Not a chemical straitjacket--more like glasses or a hearing aid. Something that allows you to be yourself, more yourself, maybe for the first time, without distractions.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But if you have a child with real ADHD, you'll take help wherever you can find it. Not a chemical straitjacket--more like glasses or a hearing aid. Something that allows you to be yourself, more yourself, maybe for the first time, without distractions.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Yes! Exactly!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I'm a teacher, and my experience is that every pupil I have taught who has shown the standard symptoms of ADD/ADHD has had a very poor diet (mainly chips).
Speaking to such children, the issue is not that they cannot pay attention - they are fine with films, etc. It is that they do not want to pay attention. Ritalin seems to make them a bit quieter, but not much more motivated.
I have also heard that the support groups for parents of such children tend to be funded on the quiet by drug companies.
That is not to say at all that there is not a medical problem with some people for which Ritalin might be very helpful. But I rather suspect the drug companies know they're onto an easy earner here.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
I think it's like anything else. It's like people saying that anti-depressants are over-prescribed for people who just need to pull themselves together and cheer up. Yes, there is a real set of behaviors described as ADHD, and yes, some people who exhibit these behaviors are helped by Ritalin. But all behavior exists on a continuum and it's not always easy to judge what's "normal childhood" and what's something diagnosable and needing treatment. And even if you've established that the behavior is beyond the parameters of "normal" and needs treatment, there's no guarantee that drug treatment is the best or only option, or that it will work, or that the side-effects won't be so severe as to make it a bad idea. It's just an immensely complex question that is never easy to call. Ritalin probably is being overprescribed by some doctors, in some places, as an apparent "quick fix" to problems that may have a host of other possible solutions. But that doesn't necessarily make Ritalin A Bad Thing in and of itself, any moreso than any other medication.
Yes, what she said.
From a mother of a child described as "ADD, inattentive type".
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, one kid doth not a syndrome make, but the ADHD kids in my family had Excellent diets (says she, who suffered the healthy food along with them!) and were highly motivated (which is how they managed to get to the amazing places they are now in their lives). They just couldn't concentrate, couldn't settle, couldn't sit down and stop jiggling long enough to do Anything--even something they wanted to do.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hazey*Jane
Ship's Biscuit Crumbs
# 8754
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Posted
No personal experience of ADHD/Ritalin here, but I did read a lot about it for a science policy essay. I think I concluded from what I understood that it is a genuine condition, Ritalin can be greatly beneficial. I also suspect, however, that there are cases where a diagnosis is given when it shouldn't be, and that the root cause lies elsewhere in those instances. That is not to detract from the very real problem that many do experience. But I think the hike in prescriptions may have something to do with this. Although better recognition of genuine cases would also presumably make up a proprtion of the rise.
Posts: 4266 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Bishop of Stortford
Shipmate
# 5653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
I'd just like to point out that I got flamed for criticising M.E.!
No, but seriously MrMister, I'd really value the opinions of an Oxbridge trained medic on this one. (Can't guarantee how the rest of the ship will treat you, mind.)
Posts: 176 | From: Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well, one kid doth not a syndrome make, but the ADHD kids in my family had Excellent diets (says she, who suffered the healthy food along with them!) and were highly motivated (which is how they managed to get to the amazing places they are now in their lives). They just couldn't concentrate, couldn't settle, couldn't sit down and stop jiggling long enough to do Anything--even something they wanted to do.
See, that seems to me like the kind of case where it's relatively easy to determine that something's wrong (although it may not, in fact, have been easy in your case...I don't know, obviously). When ADHD symptoms are combined with a good supportive family background, good diet and general health, high intelligence and motivation ... then it should be at least relatively easy to pinpoint where the problem is.
Unfortunately, in the situations that many teachers and school counsellors see, the ADHD-type symptoms may be combined with (choose any of the following): poor diet, other health issues, family problems, self-esteem issues, mental health problems, history of violence/abuse, learning disabilities, poor cognitive skills, etc etc etc ... to the point where it is difficult to unravel the "cause" of the problem much less figure out the best treatments.
Add in the fact that the behaviors may be presenting themselves in a classroom with up to (or over) 30 other students, and it's not hard to see why some children are mis-diagnosed or mis-prescribed.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Strictly speaking, in this country at least, ADHD is meant to be a rule-out diagnosis, in the sense that you have to rule out every other possible cause of the symptoms before you can say "this child has ADHD" -- some (many?) doctors are far too lazy (or something) to go through the work to make sure that some other reason for inattentiveness, fidgetiness, etc. isn't present before proclaiming a case of ADHD. And it doesn't help anybody, least of all the patients improperly diagnosed.
I know this from personal experience as my son, who has Asperger's Syndrome, was first diagnosed as having ADHD by an over-hasty doctor.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
When my mum worked with children with disabilities, she detected a tendency for identical behaviour to be diagnosed as ADHD (or some other behavioural disorder) in middle class children but treated as just plain badness in working class children.
I don't think she'd deny the existence of ADHD and similar disorders, but her observations do seem to raise the possibility that some proportion of middle class children may be misdiagnosed and medicated unnecessarily, while some less priveledged children with a genuine disorder don't get the treatment they need.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I have what used to be called ADD and is now called ADHD Inattentive or something... can't be arsed to keep up with the changing names since I can't afford the 'new treatment' and am one of the lucky ones who usually uses caffeine as medication.
I'm also a teacher (sometimes). I think parents are now a lot more informed about the attention disorders and are starting to question whether or not medication is the do-all and be-all. I hate to say it, but scare articles like this are a great help in making parents think about it before they put their kids on potentially dangerous drugs. Meds just make it easier to focus, they don't cure the underlying problem, which is a lack of skills to cope with the world (seriously, I didn't learn the concept how balancing my checkbook corresponded with how much money I had in the bank until my early 20s).
I'm also in the middle of a seriously bad struggle with my ADWhatever that's keeping me from advancing out of monkey office work into teaching, and I'm considering a short term round of prescription medication to help me get back on my schedule and get me off the tornado ride.
[ 02. January 2006, 19:04: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Hazey*Jane
Ship's Biscuit Crumbs
# 8754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
When my mum worked with children with disabilities, she detected a tendency for identical behaviour to be diagnosed as ADHD (or some other behavioural disorder) in middle class children but treated as just plain badness in working class children.
I don't think she'd deny the existence of ADHD and similar disorders, but her observations do seem to raise the possibility that some proportion of middle class children may be misdiagnosed and medicated unnecessarily, while some less priveledged children with a genuine disorder don't get the treatment they need.
Interesting point. It's worth also taking into account that it might not just be a social prejudice on the part of the medical profession - there is also the issue of awareness and education regarding the condition. So whilst one family might not have heard of ADHD, and slip through the net of the educational profession who might pick it up, another family might be aware of ADHD and take their child to the Doctors and push for a diagnosis. It's a complex issue.
Posts: 4266 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Meds just make it easier to focus, they don't cure the underlying problem, which is a lack of skills to cope with the world
Yes and no. From one point of view, the underlying problem is chemical imbalance in the brain, which the meds help with directly. But it wasn't until I started taking the meds that I was able to learn to undo some of my unhelpful coping mechanisms, and replace them with more helpful ones.
This is a learning process which is lifelong, but after a time I was able to stop taking the meds because I had built up a large enough "tool box" of useful coping skills during the time that I was on them. Meds themselves didn't make this happen -- counselling and reading and peer support groups were very important. But the meds ALLOWED it to happen.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrMister
I'd just like to point out that I got flamed for criticising M.E.!
With respect, you did not.
You got flamed for writing in a way that implied that the group of human beings that have the problem we label `ME' were undeserving recipients of publicly-funded help and support.
Nobody here, as far as I can see, is suggesting that the group of human beings who have the problem we label `attention deficit disorders' is undeserving of help and support.
Whether ME or attention deficit disorders are `medical problems' in the same way that, say, bacterial meningitis is, may have some bearing on the best way to help and support the people that have these problems. It has no bearing on whether people need help and support.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Meds just make it easier to focus, they don't cure the underlying problem, which is a lack of skills to cope with the world
Yes and no. From one point of view, the underlying problem is chemical imbalance in the brain, which the meds help with directly. But it wasn't until I started taking the meds that I was able to learn to undo some of my unhelpful coping mechanisms, and replace them with more helpful ones.
This is a learning process which is lifelong, but after a time I was able to stop taking the meds because I had built up a large enough "tool box" of useful coping skills during the time that I was on them. Meds themselves didn't make this happen -- counselling and reading and peer support groups were very important. But the meds ALLOWED it to happen.
Yes, when we work with youngsters diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, it makes such a diference when they are taking their appropriate doses of prescribed medication.
And not all ADHD/ADD children are noisy and disruptive; some just can't concentrate but are quiet with it.
Ritalin does not usually work all on its own; it does make a big difference when someone needs it.
Adults - parents, teachers,carers need to help them cope with behaving in ways that help them to learn, behave appropriately, and get on well, healthily and happily in life.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Meds just make it easier to focus, they don't cure the underlying problem, which is a lack of skills to cope with the world
Yes and no. From one point of view, the underlying problem is chemical imbalance in the brain, which the meds help with directly. But it wasn't until I started taking the meds that I was able to learn to undo some of my unhelpful coping mechanisms, and replace them with more helpful ones.
Sorry, should have added "In my and my sister's experience". And as we weren't diagnosed until we were both in our 20s and in college, I think our experience is different than other people's (also the fact that back when we were diagnosed, only 4% of ADHD diagnoses were female).
[ 03. January 2006, 01:47: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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ozowen
Shipmate
# 8935
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Posted
ADHD is real, but is also a condition on a continuum. Milder cases that may not need Ritalin or Dexamphetamine may still be treated with these drugs. Misbehaviour that appears like ADHD (milder forms) also gets treated by some GPs with these drugs. There is some danger of its use as social control. eg; I know one town where the local school has so many kids on Ritalin or Dex that the teachers have all become skilled in dispensing these medications. (which is illegal). The town is a low socio economic level town and I cannot help but think the GP and school are into a little convenience medication.
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Without stupid people we would have no one to laugh at, so take time to thank a creationist for their contribution.
Posts: 2933 | From: The Never Never, Australia | Registered: Jan 2005
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Primrose Path
Shipmate
# 9137
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Posted
I saw a good article in the Times about this - doesn't add a great deal to previous, except for the suggestion that at least some diagnoses may be pandering to our "feminised" society. We don't just sigh "boys will be boys" or use fear or physical chastisement to alter their hormonal balance anymore, worse luck:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1056-1788223,00.html
(how do you get those funky links that just say "this")?
ADHD is real. My 6-year-old son's best friend was put on Ritalin last year and his grades rocketed; before Ritalin, though sharp as a tack on conversation, he couldn't concentrate on reading and writing long enough to do anything useful. He's better on the drug, but at a price; he barely sleeps, and eats very little, his appearance borders on heroin addict at times. I was chuntering about all of this to my male cousin on the phone, when he remarked casually that he'd been put on Ritalin by his mother (a nurse) back in the 60s. By high school, he only got it out for specific tasks like term papers; and I think now he gets by with just caffeine.
There is some encouraging evidence that fish oils help: see this link:
http://www.raisingkids.co.uk/todaysnews/news_180505_02.asp
Omega-3 oils seem to supply something needed for good brain connections. It may be that the increased incidence of ADHD is due in part to a drop in the consumption of oily fish (or cod liver oil supplements)compared to previous generations (although clearly there is a genetic link too).
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"The glory to which man is called is that he should grow more godlike by growing ever more human" (Fr Dumitru Staniloae)
Posts: 72 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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AFSkypilot
Shipmate
# 10498
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Posted
There is at least one other medication that is out there that is not amphetamine based (Ritalin is a form of speed, after all). That is Strattera. Also Wellbutrin seems to work with some ADHD clients.
Want to know of a good way of screening to see if a cronically hyperactive kid has ADHD? Give him/her a cup of coffee (or half coffee, half milk) and observe. If the child begins to settle down within a few minutes of having the coffee, I suggest you take the child to a pediatritian to discuss the possiblity.
I think in time as we learn more about the function of the brain we will find other forms of medication that will aslo work for people with ADD.
Posts: 130 | From: Land of the Cougars | Registered: Oct 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AFSkypilot:
Want to know of a good way of screening to see if a cronically hyperactive kid has ADHD? Give him/her a cup of coffee (or half coffee, half milk) and observe. If the child begins to settle down within a few minutes of having the coffee, I suggest you take the child to a pediatritian to discuss the possiblity.
There are other attention disorders that do not respond to caffeine, though.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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AFSkypilot
Shipmate
# 10498
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Posted
Yes, and that is why I said it is only a screening tool for ADHD. I offer it in no way as a way of diagnosis, but it does give a stong hint that ADHD may be there.
Posts: 130 | From: Land of the Cougars | Registered: Oct 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishop of Stortford:
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
I'd just like to point out that I got flamed for criticising M.E.!
No, but seriously MrMister, I'd really value the opinions of an Oxbridge trained medic on this one. (Can't guarantee how the rest of the ship will treat you, mind.)
Real Oxford medic reporting in. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about this area - except that it seems to me that experts and reasonable people in the area seem to disagree - so sorry. Luckily, others seem to know more about it.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Corpus cani
Ship's Anachronism
# 1663
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Posted
I've taught several children with either ADD or ADHD over the years - all boys. Two cases were severe enough to warrant Ritalin. The first boy, "Alex", changed almost immediately. His whole personality was crushed. Although he was previously a real handful, he had a very sparky character and underneath the hyperactivity was a really sweet chap. Almost overnight, he certainly became more compliant and a little more focussed in class, but he also became withdrawn, quiet and distant. It was very sad.
A current pupil seems not to be affected by the drug at all. He's still a pain in the neck!
ADHD is, of course, far more than just "not paying attention." One of the worst aspects can be the complete... inability (?) no, a complete absence of consideration of the consequences of their actions. That first case, "Alex", found that other boys were frightened to play with him because he was so dangerous. He would regularly injure his playmates by throwing sticks, stones, sand - even chairs on occasion. It was not because he was a violent chap, but just because he did not think in advance that his actions might cause harm. When he did hurt others he was always genuinely horrified at what he had done, but you could always be sure that he would do the same thing again.
Corpus
(P.S. Alex is now reading engineering at university!)
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Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.
Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
My son was on Ritalin. He certainly became quieter, but the demons of depression took over instead. Perhaps this was an extreme case.
As a scoutmaster, I often had attention deficit kids in my troop (or pack, since I was a cubmaster as well). Many times I was given Ritalin to adminster on weekend camps. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. Often Ritalin seemed to be used to help a boy in "seat work" at school. Bush camping is not seatwork, and usually they (and us also) were run off their feet all weekend. It helped to have high energy levels.
To this day (25 years later), I am not convinced of the efficacity of the drug.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I work with Y5 and Y6 kids, and my own are in Y2 and Y3.
Part of it seems to be what we're asking children to do: sit still, listen, work independently on one task for long periods of time (half an hour is an eternity when you're six). Boys have a testosterone burst around six. The beginning of schooling, the style of school work and biology seem to conspire together. I wonder how it differs in say, Sweden, where kids don't start formal education until 7.
Higher up the school, the style of working doesn't change much - though I have noticed that concentration levels in some normally disruptive pupils (boys all) increase when they're interested in the subject, or have punishment/reward systems in place which really matter to them.
Having said all that, there are one or two pupils who benefit hugely from medical intervention. They're actually receiving an education rather than sitting outside the classroom. And yes, it makes the whole class function better, too.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
How much of ADHD is either diet based (too much sugar/caffiene), environment based (everything today happening at hyperspeed) or simply a criticism aimed at kids who realise most of "education" is a load of sphericals designed to create obediance and usefulness to the soulless economy?
And yes I do accept that quite a few apparently "ADHD" kids are one who hav been brought up to be thoughtlessly unpleasant and the label is simply used to hide this....
[ 03. January 2006, 11:44: Message edited by: Teapot ]
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
Posts: 608 | From: In a shrubbery! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Corpus cani
Ship's Anachronism
# 1663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
How much of ADHD is either diet based (too much sugar/caffiene), environment based (everything today happening at hyperspeed) or simply a criticism aimed at kids who realise most of "education" is a load of sphericals designed to create obediance and usefulness to the soulless economy?
And yes I do accept that quite a few apparently "ADHD" kids are one who hav been brought up to be thoughtlessly unpleasant and the label is simply used to hide this....
Sorry, Teapot, but from beginning to end this post is such a whiffy, steaming pile of shit that I wouldn't even comment upon it if I had the time or the inclination. And I have neither.
Come again when you know what you're talking about, 'cos this is bollocks.
Corpus.
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Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.
Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
(P.S. Alex is now reading engineering at university!)
Did his personality ever bounce back? I'm curious (because of some situations with my own students) about the effect medications have on people's personalities, and whether better functioning in school is worth the trade-off that sometimes seems to occur.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
How much of ADHD is either diet based (too much sugar/caffiene), environment based (everything today happening at hyperspeed) or simply a criticism aimed at kids who realise most of "education" is a load of sphericals designed to create obediance and usefulness to the soulless economy?
And yes I do accept that quite a few apparently "ADHD" kids are one who hav been brought up to be thoughtlessly unpleasant and the label is simply used to hide this....
Sorry, Teapot, but from beginning to end this post is such a whiffy, steaming pile of shit that I wouldn't even comment upon it if I had the time or the inclination. And I have neither.
Come again when you know what you're talking about, 'cos this is bollocks.
Corpus.
Sorry for the cross-posting, Corpus, but is Teapot's post really such bollocks? The question was posed upthread: is it the kids who are "mad," or the system? Surely if there's a huge rise in certain disorders it's valid to ask what we've changed about our society that's making these problems appear?
If part of the ADHD "epidemic" (and subsequent prescription/overprescription of drugs) is that kids aren't sitting still and paying attention in school, isn't it fair to ask about wider societal factors as well as about the individual child? Are we, in fact, asking the right things of them in school? Or have we perhaps reached the point where the divide between what's happening in the popular culture and what's happening in the school system is so deep that kids can no longer move comfortably between one and the other?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
This may be a little foolheardy to suggest in a forum populated by people with experience of ADHD from both ends (Patient and doctor). Especially as my experience is very much second hand.
I would suggest that in a conventional sense there is in fact no real ADHD; and this is the problem. I suspect (and noone truly knows) that instead there are a whole bunch of symptoms; some of which can be dealt with in various ways. And that a lot of these often occur together and can be dealt with using Ritalin. What there is not is an ADHD Bacillus or similar - that can be wiped with targetted antibiotics or similar.
This is why there is a lot of confusion over the subject. It is hard for your torygraph reader with no direct experience to really understand what is going on here. (S)he would surely be incapable of telling the difference between ill behavior and ADHD. Add to this the very real phenomena of misdiagnosis of ADHD; and the fact that ADHD takes many forms of varying intensities; and the fact that the cure is uncertain to say the least. Then one has a mess which Mr and Mrs Smith are going to be suspicious of; and who can blame them.
What would help a lot of ADHD sufferers (acc. to one girl I used to know quite well - and who made me reevaluate my own opinions a lot) is if people had a more nuanced understanding of the condition; knowing it for what it is, and accepting that as a genuine if unconventional condition.
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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...
Posts: 1584 | From: (Sunshine on) Leith | Registered: Jun 2004
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
How much of ADHD is either diet based (too much sugar/caffiene), environment based (everything today happening at hyperspeed) or simply a criticism aimed at kids who realise most of "education" is a load of sphericals designed to create obediance and usefulness to the soulless economy?
And yes I do accept that quite a few apparently "ADHD" kids are one who hav been brought up to be thoughtlessly unpleasant and the label is simply used to hide this....
Sorry, Teapot, but from beginning to end this post is such a whiffy, steaming pile of shit that I wouldn't even comment upon it if I had the time or the inclination. And I have neither.
Come again when you know what you're talking about, 'cos this is bollocks.
Corpus.
Well I can see you opinion, so well thought out and reasoned, is one I should value. Thankyou.
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
Posts: 608 | From: In a shrubbery! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
I can't imagine any society in which concentration is never necessary.
Therefore I can't imagine any society in which an impaired ability to concentrate isn't an impairment to a major life activity.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
I can't imagine any society in which concentration is never necessary.
Therefore I can't imagine any society in which an impaired ability to concentrate isn't an impairment to a major life activity.
I can't imagine a society in which flexibiliy and unpredictibility and disobedience are never neccessary.
Therefore I can't imagine a society in which drugging kids to make them sit still and obey orders isn't a major impairment.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Would you say the same of all discipline in schools Ken? Is teaching children they'll be punished if they don't do what the teacher says also as bad?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
How much of ADHD is either diet based (too much sugar/caffiene)
I'd guess sugar (and fat) is a much bigger problem with kids (in my experience) than caffeine.
That's a lot of it, certainly.
quote:
environment based (everything today happening at hyperspeed)
Also a problem, to which I'd add the expectation of instant gratification.
quote:
or simply a criticism aimed at kids who realise most of "education" is a load of sphericals designed to create obediance and usefulness to the soulless economy?
None, in my experience.
quote:
And yes I do accept that quite a few apparently "ADHD" kids are one who hav been brought up to be thoughtlessly unpleasant and the label is simply used to hide this....
I know very few kids who have been brought up to be unpleasant. I know a fair few who haven't been brought up to be pleasant. There's a lot of difference.
Of course, there are also people for whom it is a problem needing medical intervention. It is sad that their needs are often hidden by those who just aren't being brought up correctly.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
There was a survey done in Sweden IIRC on kids with ADHD. The kids were CAT scanned and it was clear that an area in their brains was underfunctioning, causing the inability to concentrate and the other behaviours seen in ADHD - huge generalisation I know, but bear with me.
When ritalin - a stimulant - was administered, it kick started the underfunctioning area and the kids were able to complete tasks, baheve in a more socially acceptable fashion etc.
ADHD is NOT a convenient label, teapot, it's a real condition. OK, some kids may have shocking behaviour as well as ADHD, but they're not the same.
There's a lot of work being done on diet - as others have said on this thread. It can produce enormous changes, specially with the fish oils - Omega 3 oils.
My kids react very badly to artificial colours. No, I mean REALLY badly. One is a straight As, together fellow (OK, he's still a teenager!) but with blue, green or quinoline yellow colours, he's OFF THE WALL. Language completely shuts down, can't orientate himself in a room, acts as if he was very autistic. It's startling and scary.
(these colours can be in peas, crisps, drinks etc etc etc)
So much so that he now voluntarily restricts his own diet to exclude these colours.
We realised he was affected when he was tiny and fed him on real food without any artificial colours. Other parents were aghast - wot, no Smarties/kids cheap sweets/anything with these colours??
Yet it works.
A lad I worked in school with was similarly affected. His mum kept an eye on what he ate, but one lunchtime the school canteen had run out of white cheddar cheese and used red cheddar for the baked potatoes. When I went in after lunch, the lad was like my fellow - no language, scared of people talking to him.
Don't knock ADHD or the effect of diet on us all.
I've long suspected that diet's a contributory factor in a number of today's ailments.
It's about the only thing that might explain the exponential increase in autism and all the language disorders. Schools are now so much better at identifying them, but they are increasing beyond that.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by musician:
ADHD is NOT a convenient label, teapot, it's a real condition. OK, some kids may have shocking behaviour as well as ADHD, but they're not the same.
I have seen and heard several "parents" using ADHD as an excuse for their kid being a little s*d who has not been brought up to respect other peoples boundaries.... Not saying anything like all, or even most ADHD is this, just that is happens and its quite common.
quote:
There's a lot of work being done on diet - as others have said on this thread. It can produce enormous changes, specially with the fish oils - Omega 3 oils.
Indeed. I have first hand experience of the impact omega 3 oils (from Eye-Q) on ADHD and how they help. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Don't knock ADHD or the effect of diet on us all.
I've long suspected that diet's a contributory factor in a number of today's ailments.
Indeed, hence it being a part of my question.
quote:
It's about the only thing that might explain the exponential increase in autism and all the language disorders. Schools are now so much better at identifying them, but they are increasing beyond that.
For an increase in autism, I look as much to an increase in an alienated/alienating society as to diet.... There's no wonder depression/autism rates are climbing when the modern lifestyle is as close to what we are suited to as a GM mouse with an ear on its back is as close to a field mouse...
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
Posts: 608 | From: In a shrubbery! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
It might be worth pointing out that there seem to be alternatives to Ritalin, such as in the field of homeopathy, especially if one finds 'chemical warfare' problematic.
From what I hear, this remedy appears to be helpful in some cases, and as with many other homeopathic remedies, should not have any (or only very minor) side effects. It seems available only in Europe, though.
Note and disclaimer: The sole aim of this post is to suggest that there may be alternative medication as means of finding relief from ADHD. It is NOT intended to provide any medical advice.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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mgeorge
Shipmate
# 10487
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Posted
Thank you for these posts, as I've had my battles with ADHD. I admit I was very skeptical at first--I thought it was a convenient label for parents who didn't want to do the work involved with raising a child. I see now that I was wrong.
I had a bad experience with ADHD perception. I have a very active child, and was often subject to glares from people during church because he would actually make noise and have trouble keeping still during a worship service. I would take him out frequently so as not to offend anyone--but I would also point out at the time that our church did nothing to get children more involved or interested, either. The situation is very different now, thank God.
One parishioner who is also a therapist asked me once if he had ADHD...I think she was more concerned with having a "children should be kept quiet and out of sight" worship service than his welfare.
I chose to get my child involved with organized sports rather than putting him on drugs to keep others happy. That venue has been a very appropriate outlet for his energy rather than medication.
Posts: 1021 | From: By the beach | Registered: Sep 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Telepath:
I can't imagine any society in which concentration is never necessary.
Therefore I can't imagine any society in which an impaired ability to concentrate isn't an impairment to a major life activity.
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I can't imagine a society in which flexibiliy and unpredictibility and disobedience are never neccessary.
Therefore I can't imagine a society in which drugging kids to make them sit still and obey orders isn't a major impairment.
In my experience, almost everyone will be disgusted with you for taking Ritalin no matter what, because doing so doesn't flatter anybody's personal view of what society should be like.
No-one really values flexibility, unpredictability and disobedience in practice, but if I let anyone know I was taking Ritalin they would wax indignant because they assumed I was trying to suppress these characteristics in myself or others. They wanted society to change and they wanted me to be the one to lead the revolution, no matter how beleaguered and beaten down by my struggle.
Conversely, anyone who'd had a taste of what my inflexibility, unpredictability, and disobedience was actually like would be far more offended that I might get off with just a diagnosis. They wanted me to pull my socks up and get some moral backbone and stop trying to pathologize my bad behaviour, because pathologizing your bad behaviour and popping pills for every little discomfort is what's wrong with society today etc, etc.
The major problem, from my admittedly egocentric point of view, is the tendency to use people with ADHD as a means to pontificate about everything people don't like in society. There's no shortage of people ready to use us as rhetorical devices and then treat us as if we don't exist and our actual wants and needs were irrelevant.
I've only really been helped by people who have treated my medical problem as just what it is - a medical problem. Not an opportunity to stand on a soapbox. The trouble is that there aren't nearly as many of the former as the media would lead you to believe.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
I can't imagine any society in which concentration is never necessary.
Therefore I can't imagine any society in which an impaired ability to concentrate isn't an impairment to a major life activity.
I can't imagine a society in which flexibiliy and unpredictibility and disobedience are never neccessary.
Therefore I can't imagine a society in which drugging kids to make them sit still and obey orders isn't a major impairment.
ken,
that's not supposed to be what it does; it's to help kids think, be aware, to have enough energy in their brain so that it works properly without having to be poked and prodded by the way they behave.
Ritalin is a drug that stimulates the brain and helps it to function more easily
in those who need that stimulation.
If someone who doesn't need it took it, it would have a different effect.
If you spoke to people who have improved their lives by taking it, as posted several times above here, you would hear that it is useful - not perfect, and as already said, when the way we think and act is efficiently learned when taking it, it can be often dropped or just taken occasionally when necessary.
This does not mean that it solves all problems that noisy kids have, whether with what they do, or what people critices them unecessarily for.
I used to think Ritalin prescription was child abuse, but having met quite a fwe people who have had it and improved their lives by taking it, I've been turned around in my attitude to it.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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