Thread: Hell: Never enough Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by marmot (# 479) on
:
Rant on
After decades of living below our means to support starving children, homeless, handicapped, victims of natural disasters, international causes, ecological causes, I GIVE UP. Cripes, if I thought it would help to wear dishtowels like Mother Teresa and poop out in the back yard I?d have done it by now, but you know what? It won't help. As a family, we don?t practice self-denial for congratulations. But it would be nice if the rest of the world would just get off our backs for a week or two.
Does it ever occur to anyone that Americans have families to support on limited resources, too? That we?d like to take time off from saving the world once in a while to enjoy a picnic and a ball game with the kids? To be thankful and enjoy our blessings without feeling guilty all the time because someone else doesn?t have the same?
The expectation seems to be that if there is a problem anywhere in the world, it is the responsibility of the USA to fix it, but without any military presence and leaving no trace of our own culture behind. Who pays for it all? Me, and a million others like me, who watch lives and resources go down the tubes, then endure the snide remarks from the rest of the world because we "don't care about anybody but ourselves."
I am sick, sick, sick of trying to care for the whole world at the expense of my own family and getting nothing but grief for it.
Rant off
[ 10. March 2003, 01:04: Message edited by: Erin ]
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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A brave and interesting post, Marmot. It is strange that I assumed it was always GB which was the 'mug' country but obviously that depends on where you live and the propaganda you are fed.
I am a very generous person, but I do get fed up when I hear that countries which have famines, etc are embroiled in yet another war. It doesn't take much understanding to realise where the money really gets spent.
Where I differ from you, though, is that I still believe that the poorest western family is still better off than the famine victims in many parts of the world. Yes they have too many children, but that is because so many of them die. The children don't ask to be born, but once they are born they have as much right to be alleviated from suffering as the rest of us. Ideally with better life chances and freely available contraception this will one day change, but this all takes time..........
I have come to the idea of a balance. Yes I do give some of my money to Christian Aid and similar charities. But I don't pauper myself in the process because it would be too disheartening. And I make sure I also support local charities as well, where you are more likely to see that your money does make a difference.
Am I the only person to get disheartened, though, when you donate, say, £10 to be bombarded with junk mail from the charity, the cost of which probably amounts to the total of the donation?! ![[Flaming]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
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quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
...then endure the snide remarks from the rest of the world because we "don't care about anybody but ourselves."
My reaction to this is threefold:
1. A hearty "fuck you".
2. Noting that person's name in the Book of Morons (which will, btw, be cross-referenced with the Book of Life come Judgment Day, I have assurances from God on this one).
3. Thank God that our plot to keep xenophobic bigots out of the US is working so wonderfully.
Posted by MarkthePunk (# 683) on
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I think Marmot has a point. America gets blamed for all the world's ills.
I'd rather blame Canada. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
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quote:
Where I differ from you, though, is that I still believe that the poorest western family is still better off than the famine victims in many parts of the world.
We don't differ on this part, Chorister. However, I often feel as though, in the eyes of the world, unless I'm living on rice and UniMix and drinking dirty water in solidarity with the third world, my standard of living is too high and I don't care enough about other people. You and I know that's not really how it works.
My point is that I'm tired of being treated like some greedy bastard just because of where I happen to have been born.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
I think Marmot has a point. America gets blamed for all the world's ills.
I'd rather blame Canada.
Hardy har har.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
...I often feel as though, in the eyes of the world, unless I'm living on rice and UniMix and drinking dirty water in solidarity with the third world, my standard of living is too high and I don't care enough about other people.... I'm tired of being treated like some greedy bastard just because of where I happen to have been born.
A virtual high five and a tip of the winged helmet to you, Marmot. I know exactly what you mean. (And I'm tired of it too.)
Rossweisse // who tithes, but is trying to educate and rear two children on limited means as well
Posted by SeanD (# 2271) on
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Marmot - couldn't agree more. Much admiration and respect to you for your sincere efforts and so on.
Chorister - complete echo. If one particular charity sends me one more request with its cutesie "handwritten" notes which probably cost a loada cash to produce I will begin a campaign of hate mailing them.
Prob is that a lot of charity is systemically flawed. It's like trying to cure cancer with sticking plasters: it's a noble gesture but what's needed is something to happen inside. Giving people enough food for a day (or even a year) or even that whole "teach a man to fish" stuff is all very well but if we're (by which I mean the Big Evil West collectively, which I know is a gross generalisation) at the same time draining poor countries' economies through unfair trade rules and collecting debt then real, lasting change just can't happen.
In addition, I see why you get really hacked off (quite rightly) with being told "we're all selfish tight gits" when clearly you're not and you live very sacrificially as a result. But I would suggest you are almost unique! So many of the Christians I know need to hear that very message, because they really are selfish and tight.
Having said all that, we can still make a difference (I firmly believe and hope). One way I have responded is by giving more to charities who campaign on these issues rather than just feeding people, e.g. (for Britain) Christian Aid and Oxfam. Obviously voting and praying and campaigning may make a difference too. I believe in giving sacrificially but that's very easy for me as I don't have a family to support, so it's only me making the sacrifices - I know I'd find it very different if I was married with several children to feed and bring up as well as I could.
In the meantime, the envelopes keep pouring through our doors... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Aardvark (# 2295) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SeanD:
Prob is that a lot of charity is systemically flawed. It's like trying to cure cancer with sticking plasters: it's a noble gesture but what's needed is something to happen inside. Giving people enough food for a day (or even a year) or even that whole "teach a man to fish" stuff is all very well but if we're (by which I mean the Big Evil West collectively, which I know is a gross generalisation) at the same time draining poor countries' economies through unfair trade rules and collecting debt then real, lasting change just can't happen.
In addition, I see why you get really hacked off (quite rightly) with being told "we're all selfish tight gits" when clearly you're not and you live very sacrificially as a result. But I would suggest you are almost unique! So many of the Christians I know need to hear that very message, because they really are selfish and tight.
Having said all that, we can still make a difference (I firmly believe and hope). One way I have responded is by giving more to charities who campaign on these issues rather than just feeding people, e.g. (for Britain) Christian Aid and Oxfam. Obviously voting and praying and campaigning may make a difference too. I believe in giving sacrificially but that's very easy for me as I don't have a family to support, so it's only me making the sacrifices - I know I'd find it very different if I was married with several children to feed and bring up as well as I could.
(
Well said. There's little point in just throwing money at the occasional charity out of guilt whilst not caring two hoots about where you shop for your clothes and groceries. Many Christians groan on about third world poverty yet can't be bothered to buy fairly traded coffee because it's a bit more expensive than their regular brand. We don't pay nearly enough attention to where and how the goods are produced that make our lives run so smoothly,and I'm as guilty as anyone, especially when it comes to clothes.
Posted by troy (# 2516) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SeanD:
In addition, I see why you get really hacked off (quite rightly) with being told "we're all selfish tight gits" when clearly you're not and you live very sacrificially as a result. But I would suggest you are almost unique! So many of the Christians I know need to hear that very message, because they really are selfish and tight.
I don't think it is really that simple though. At first glance, it seems like the most Christian thing to do to only care for your bare minimum (maybe a little more) and give the rest away. But what happens when the car breaks down and dies, the roof starts leaking, the dryer rebels, and the hot water heater goes bad -- all in one month? (Note that something cataclysmic like this will likely happen every 3rd month).
I'm think there is a middle of the road here, which actually yields more $$$ for charity in the long run. Save some, give some, and live below your means. It wasn't until I really started saving money that I found I had money to give. I've given more in the past year than I ever have before. It seems like every day presents itself with a chance to give...and I can take advantage of those chances because I know I have the money to do it. Some of the most generous people I know are also the "tightest" with their money.
But beyond that, it's not like money is the only thing keeping the 3rd world back, or even the main thing keeping the 3rd world back. My understanding is that political instability (and tyranny) does more to cause a shortage of resources than anything else. The degree to which "The West" (tm) is to blame for this instablity varies....but in most cases if show me a 3rd world country, and I'll show you one with a great deal of political unrest and upheaval. Perhaps the best donation is a little bit of time for advocacy mixed with a little bit of money.
Castigating someone for "not giving everything they possibily could" seems shortsighted to me. It's kinda like a being lectured for not volunteering because you've managed to carve one hour of free time out of your schedule. "Hey, you have that free hour" seems like a good argument, but doesn't take the long run into account.
-T
Posted by tomb (# 174) on
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For some years now, Mrs tomb's and my favorite non-church charity has been the Heifer Project, through which you purchase farm animals and other agricultural products suitable for 3rd world use. So much money will buy a chicken or a duck; more will get you a goat or sheep; and for a big donation, you can get a cow or an ox.
They also have a sort of experimental farm down in Arkansas where they explore ways to improve subsistence farming methods. They always accept volunteers--particularly in the summer. Given the fact that it is always nine hundred degrees and two hundred percent humidity there, I figure they use it to separate the True Believers from the guilty yuppie libruls.
Mrs. tomb wanted to go down there herself and take me with her, but I pointed out that the heat would cause my scales to overheat; she always gets so vexed when I make her pour cups of cool water on them. So she figured she'd send the Offspring instead--sort of a token sacrifice of the firstborn. But I pointed out that he hadn't reproduced himself yet (that we know of), and it would probably be a good idea to hold off until we had some assurance that the genetic line would carry on for at least another generation. It would be a shame and tragedy if my beauty and intelligence couldn't be bequeathed to the Future.
All that being said, the Heifer Project is a way of making a difference for individuals, for families, and for villages. It's much nicer to know that you are helping people feed themselves and to develop a sustainable way of living.
[ 24. October 2002, 05:06: Message edited by: tomb ]
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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You're right, Marmot.
Rossweisse // one of the three who Get It
Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on
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quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
<snip!>...But I pointed out that he hadn't reproduced himself yet (that we know of), and it would probably be a good idea to hold off until we had some assurance that the genetic line would carry on for at least another generation. It would be a shame and tragedy if my beauty and intelligence couldn't be bequeathed to the Future.
That would be a darn shame since ... *ahem-song-comin'-on...* "What the world needs now, is more tombs, more tombs..." ![[Sunny]](graemlins/flowerface.gif)
<-smiling at you tomb
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
It would be a shame and tragedy if my beauty and intelligence couldn't be bequeathed to the Future.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Fortunately for the Future, tomb's genes are tempered by those of Mrs. tomb, who is a lovely and gracious lady.
I hear you, marmot. I heard a stewardship sermon recently that actually did not resort to the "we're all so rich" line. It was very refreshing. I found that line particularly annoying when I had been out of work for a while and had just found a very inadequate job that would not help me pay the bills that mounted up after I got laid off.
Posted by halibut (# 3115) on
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quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
My point is that I'm tired of being treated like some greedy bastard just because of where I happen to have been born.
*clears throat* (ahem)
Don't you think that millions of other people aren't tired of being treated like irrelevant basket cases because of where they happen to have been born?
Personally I'm sick of my tax money (off my limited salary paid in a devalued currency in a poor(ish) country) being used to subsidise the First World. How does that happen? By our running several excellent universities, many of whose graduates run off to first world careers as soon as they graduate. By having to fight hard not to have northern countries slap protective tarrifs against our export products while using every WTO mechanism to prevent us from doing similarly and staying just the right side of antidumping rules.
Yes, there's corruption, violence and stupidity everywhere. Not just in the South either.
I live on the border of suburbia and the inner city here. Every day that I'm home, I have about half a dozen people come to my door begging. They're not pictures in a charity brochure. They're people, they're here, and they have nothing, and no opportunity to make their lives better. Yes I get frustrated - it's really hard to make ends meet anyway without people constantly wanting to take, take, take. So what do you propose then?
I'm also sick and tired of First World people, who sit with an absurd proportion of the world's resources, whinging about being expected to share, as if it's all about personal guilt. It isn't. But the collective responsibility is real and cannot be run from.
Funny, I read a challenging part of Luke's gospel last night. The bit bout selling all of our goods and giving to the poor if we're to follow Christ. It's really hard, that. And I know I fail in it dismally. But there it is. Something to think about.
H
Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on
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Troy - I do take your point, but I'm not talking about Christians who live at bare minimum subsistence level trying to support a family but those who have huge houses, drive extremely flash cars (of which they own two or three) and think nothing of taking three foreign holidays a year. (Maybe I just live in the wrong area and am the only one who knows these people...)
My problem with them is NOT that they haven't chucked everything away to abandon all responsibility and go and live in squalor - I don't think that is necessary or even effective as a means of fighting poverty. My problem is twofold: 1) They have sold out to the world's values and 2) their materialism blinds them to the plight of the poor so they don't think they need to do anything about it.
Posted by Qlib (# 43) on
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Well said, Halibut.
We're human all the time. We're children of one father all the time. We're under obligation all the time. I daresay the starving would like a break from being starving, now and again.
I don't think the poor countries expect the rich countries to solve all their problems - but they do expect us to stop contributing to some of them - and to treat them all more fairly.
Having said all that, I agree it's wrong for people to be oppressed by a sense of overwhelming (and futile) guilt. You do what you can and then let it go. But you have to do what you can.
Posted by Moth (# 2589) on
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Marmot, I think you will find you are suffering from Top Nation Syndrome.
I well remember being told as a child, and subsequently, that all of the problems of the third world were caused by the British having an Empire.
That still comes up occasionally, but I have noticed (with some relief) that now that the USA is Top Nation, you get blamed instead!
I do not think there is a cure for this, unless some other nation takes over as top. Then, eventually, they will be attacked instead of you.
As for the duty to give to the poor, well, it's a duty, so do it. One of the really irritating things is that we're NOT supposed to make a big fuss about how much we do for others, so we are still going to take the flack for not doing it. It's a hard life...
Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on
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I sympathise, Marmot, but I can see the other side too. All of us living in Western countries, not just the US, don't always realise how vast the chasm is between the rich and poor nations. We are in a tiny minorty of the earth's population that consumes a vast amount of the world's resources, and it isn't fair. So what can we do about it? The Gospels are full to bursting of stories of Jesus' teachings on the subject of the rich/poor divide. Without exception he said, those who have more have to give to those who had none. So I think we DO have to give and keep giving. Yes, it is irritating to be constantly blamed. But look at it from the poor countries' point of view. They are desperate. It's a matter of life and death for millions of people. The simple luxuries that we take for granted like heating in our homes, basic health care, constant running water are beyond the reach of most of the world's population. Can you blame them for doing anything in their power to redress the balance, and that includes making us feel a little bit guilty?
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
The simple luxuries that we take for granted like heating in our homes, basic health care, constant running water are beyond the reach of most of the world's population. Can you blame them for doing anything in their power to redress the balance, and that includes making us feel a little bit guilty?
No, actually, I blame them less than I blame people like you.
quote:
posted elswhere by sparrow:
It just goes to show how out of touch most Americans are with the rest of the world if they think that it's funny to celebrate the much more luxurious lifestyle they enjoy at the expense of the rest of the world. Do they STILL not understand that this kind of behaviour is one reason why the rest of the world dislikes them so much?
Don't ever assume that I, or others, take anything, running water, healthcare, issues of life and death, freedom, anything for granted. Don't assume that we only give money to starving orphans on charity brochures and not work on the root causes of worldwide poverty--including those causes here at home. Don't assume that you know what I and others do to achieve a fairer world--this is Hell and I don't owe you an itemized list. If we haven't solved the problem to your timetable and satisfaction, try putting all the energy you spend into yank-bashing into volunteering and see what happens.
Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on
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Ruth W, praying about your employment/money situation.
[now getting on with it...] I read an excerpt from an interview with that Danish scienctist that wrote the The Skeptical Environmentalist that more pollution comes from 3rd world countries than from affluent nations.
My friend Colleen is moving to Albania this January (pls pray for her if you feel led) to teach English fulltime (and be a missionary to the people there). It is definitly a 3rd world nation, she tells me, yet everyone has mobile phones. They now have indoor toilets and electricity. The biggest school they have there was started by American Missionaries, and the top gov't officials have gone there to study English (including the Albanian president).
My points? Well, everyone pollutes. What helps is helping up the standard of living in other countries, as many missionaries are doing and also people like Bono from U2 (what a babe! I love that guy!) who are doing all they can to have nations let go of money owed. We need to help them to help ourselves. I myself am not moved to be a missionary but I do give money to those causes when I can (like to my friend Colleen).
I get disgusted when I read about protestors of pollution who DRIVE CARS TO A RALLY (like an SUV one time...the people caught on interview said "this is the only vehicle that will hold all our stuff and we regret using it" or something like that). I respect people if they actually DON'T DRIVE A CAR or RIDE IN ONE if they really feel none of us should use one. Also, many people against animals being eaten wear LEATHER JACKETS ???
Anyway, the USA is not perfect, but we are definitly not polluting the world as much as many claim...plus we do BUY our oil (and make other countries in the Middle East rich). We do produce our OWN electricity (albeit with contreversial nucluar methods most of the time). We do gather our own water. If we were able to get to more land to dig it up (like Alaska) we would be less dependent on the Middle East for oil..but then we would harm our environment more.
My 2 cents.
Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on
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Marmot - would you see yourself as an average american? I mean, do you find that many of your friends/colleagues etc take your sorts of attitudes? People of your mentality aren't all that common and whilst yankbashing is horrible, racist and completely unfair to those sincere and lovely americans (to which group most americans I have met belongs) but at the same time folk like your president and policies like his don't exactly do wonders for your (pl) reputation.
At the same time I know several american christians who would never vote anything except republican cos they feel they have to vote "christianly".
So whilst I see your point about how gross it is that people blame America as if every American is responsible surely there can be little doubt that leading Americans have and still are responsible for many major global problems (and thereby so are members of the public who elect them), just as the problems caused by the withdrawal of the British empire screwed up many countries which are still trying to resolve things today.
That's why we need a political see-change rather than poverty. Vive la revolution!!
Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on
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DOH! by poverty in my last post, I did of course mean charity. :idiot:
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean D:
People of your mentality aren't all that common...
How do you know? Don't forget for a second that GB Jr. was elected by the slimmest of margins under disputed circumstances.
For every knucklehead elected official, there is a Peace Corp, Habitat for Humanity, Heifer Project (mentioned by Tomb. Check it out! an extraordinary worthy organization) not to mention innumerable smaller operations who focus on a single issue: clean water, vision preservation, landmines, or alternative fuel and food sources.
It is just easier and more fun to assume things about others than it is to actually get to know them. Heaven forbid we might actually have similar goals.
I'll be back later. Right now I have things to do.
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
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Know what Sean D? I agree with just about every word marmot wrote and I voted for GWB.
How about if you, Sparrow, and the rest of the people like you get down off of your high horses? Maybe then you will realize that those who don't agree with you on methodology are not necessarily the cause of all of the problems.
Here's another news flash - poor countries are the source of many of their own problems. Not GWB. Not Republicans. Not Americans. The biggest problems come from the home-grown tinpots and warlords in combination with self-defeating cultural forces. No amount of US charity or politicking can overcome those problems. As marmot pointed out in the OP, it's idiotic to suggest that we should be able to change those forces without leaving a mark on the country.
So how about giving those of us who are doing the best we can a break? (and that's most of us) We give what we can. We do what we can. And in the end, it's never enough.
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
quote:
People of your mentality aren't all that common and whilst yankbashing is horrible, racist and completely unfair to those sincere and lovely americans (to which group most americans I have met belongs) but at the same time folk like your president and policies like his don't exactly do wonders for your (pl) reputation.
YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.
If it's horrible, then STOP JUSTIFYING it. Either it's wrong or it isn't.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by duchess [green]:
Ruth W, praying about your employment/money situation.
No need - sorry if I was misleading. The whole unemployment/no money episode was several years ago. As was a particularly icky "we're all so rich" sermon.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean D:
At the same time I know several american christians who would never vote anything except republican cos they feel they have to vote "christianly".
There are millions of American Christians. So knowing "several" is not exactly grounds for making any kind of judgement about us.
This American Christian votes Green, but is driven to agreeing with Erin, Scot and duchess - all on one thread.
Nothing like a little US-bashing before lunch ...
Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
The simple luxuries that we take for granted like heating in our homes, basic health care, constant running water are beyond the reach of most of the world's population. Can you blame them for doing anything in their power to redress the balance, and that includes making us feel a little bit guilty?
No, actually, I blame them less than I blame people like you.
Ouch! And this time I did start by saying "I do sympathise ...." and I do. I thought
I was careful to stress several times that this is something affecting ALL the Western nations,
not just America.
And I'd like to know your thinking behind your comment about blaming the poor countries
for their plight less than people like me? I'm afraid you've got me totally puzzled there.
And I'm not a yank-basher- but I don't believe that America should be immune from
criticism. The UK is one of your best friends and allies - if your best friends can't offer
some honest criticism, who can?
Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on
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Conciliatory tone all round - I was out of order.
Erin: sorry to get your hackles up. I know you could easily eat six or seven newbies like me for breakfast so I'm wary of challenging you. But I would like to know what in my post justified bashing americans. I certainly disagree with some americans and said so but this doesn't amount to bashing america as a nation or saying it's ok. If I did say something that suggested such, sorry again.
Marmot and Scot: I apologise. I was judging americans on the basis of the people I actually know (i.e. brits) among whom someone like Marmot really would be pretty rare. Obviously there are millions of concerned americans doing a brilliant job on this issue, such as those projects Marmot mentioned. Had a look at the heifer website which sounded great.
As for the methodology point Scot, of course I accept that one might be politically very different to me but just as concerned about the poor etc. Sorry if I sounded like I was on a high horse but if you read my first post you'll see I actually agreed *very* strongly with Marmot about being able chill out on the issue. Of course, that doesn't mean I do agree on the method as I really am convinced that voting Tory (in Britain) doesn't help the poor. Obviously if GWB makes a real difference on the issue I will eat more humble pie but I'm not convinced he will.
RuthW: point taken and again sorry. Obviously I didn't intend to imply that because I know a few American Christians who think so that that's what all of you think. I guess my point was that this shows what *some* genuinely do think and simply that I disagreed. I should have phrased a lot more carefully when posting in hell.
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
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Sparrow, you have a reading comprehension problem. She's not blaming you for their plight, she's saying she's sick of people like you blaming US for it. Get it yet?
And Sean: if blatant anti-US sentiment is wrong, then DON'T JUSTIFY it by saying "well, you can't really blame them, after all, look at [fill in the blank]". Geez, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. If it's wrong, then DO NOT post along those lines.
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
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It's a great big pendulum, back and forth: Today's first world is tomorrow's casualty waiting to happen. *thinks he hears ticking...is something ticking?*
Leaving aside the issue of whether the habits of the first world are *just* there's a whole lot of consumption going on in the first world which is just foolish because it isn't sustainable.
Water, fossil fuels, etc...that stuff
The original post could have been better - and by better I simply mean it could have been more creative.....sounded too much like whining to me.
I've little time for people justifying conspicuous consumption and stilted social structures because they also give to charities, support little Koko in Malawi and intend to leave a certain amount of their estate to the SPCA
Reality is, if you've got it - somebody wants it. If you build something big somebody wants to knock it down. This is true. It's also true that we're more accurately viewed by others than we are by ourselves.
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal QC
(beginning his holidays tonight!!!)
and yes - it is Canada's fault.
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
originally posted by Marmot
quote:
The expectation seems to be that if there is a problem anywhere in the world, it is the responsibility of the USA to fix it, but without any military presence and leaving no trace of our own culture behind.
Is that the expectation? Holy Shit! You guys are gonna have to try a little harder. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
The original post could have been better - and by better I simply mean it could have been more creative.....sounded too much like whining to me.
Hey, Gramps, sorry you thought my purpose in life is to entertain you. Maybe the concept of a Rant in Hell has fallen into one of your brain divots.
I've little time for people justifying conspicuous consumption and stilted social structures because they also give to charities, support little Koko in Malawi and intend to leave a certain amount of their estate to the SPCA
That's nice, but what does that have to do with the discussion? You don't know the first thing about how the rest of us live except that we all have access to a computer.
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
posted by Marmot
quote:
After decades of living below our means to support starving children, homeless, handicapped, victims of natural disasters, international causes, ecological causes, I GIVE UP
Listen dickweed: For somebody who's apparently given up after a lifetime of sending his or her pennies off to the starving, the halt and the lame, the flooded, the bombed and you seem to have an awful lot of steam left. Were you expecting to be congratulated? Build a windmill, asshole....
I'm all for rants. Just don't like whining.
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
Okay, how is it that just about EVERYBODY on this thread has missed the point?
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
Well Erin, most of the conflicts pitting the first world in general and the U.S.A. in particular against the other parts of the globe have something to do with a tremendous level of consumption of the world's resources and a feeling of entitlement to those resources.
Building a windmill wouldn't be completely beside the point....
Can't see how consoling Marmot would help
Raspberry Rabbit
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
:
Raspberry Rabbit, are you reading-impaired or just stupid? marmot is probably too polite, so I'll save her the trouble of telling you to go fuck yourself.
Nobody cares about your congratulations, nobody cares about entertaining you, nobody cares about your moralizing. Get over yourself.
Posted by tomb (# 174) on
:
Sean,
Thanks for posting the URL for the Heifer Project. I had been planning to edit my post to include it, but you beat me to the punch.
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
ARGH!!!!
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posted by Laura (# 10) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
marmot is probably too polite, so I'll save her the trouble of telling you to go fuck yourself.
Scot, this is very chivalrous of you, to save marmot (and me) the trouble.
Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on
:
[tangent]
quote:
Chorister: Am I the only person to get disheartened, though, when you donate, say, £10 to be bombarded with junk mail from the charity, the cost of which probably amounts to the total of the donation?!
I work for a marketing agency specializing in acquiring donors and funding for Christian and humanitarian non-profit organizations. Even though you've never heard of my employer, I can name our five biggest clients and all of you would recognize them.
Donors are the lifeblood of any charity ( also include non-profit organizations in this set) and donor acquisition (an incredibly complex and arcane science stuffed with flow charts, formulae, spreadsheets, and much guesswork) is based on not just acquiring donors, but keeping them.
Here's a sample what services a donor-dependent organization must look for in getting (and keeping!) donors:
+ Marketing Studies and Integrated Strategy Development
+ Donor Acquisition and Cultivation Programs
+ Donor Retention Studies and Programs
+ Response Analysis/Financial and Statistical Modeling
+ Middle Donor Programs
+ Direct Mail, Print Collateral Creative and Production
+ [Mailing] List Management and Brokerage Services
+ Television, Radio and Video Production
+ Broadcast and Print Media Planning and Buying
+ Alternative Response Media--card decks, marriage mailers, inserts
+ Fund Development Seminar Services
+ Governmental Relations (grants, etc.)
Without revenue, the charity shuts down. (I'd like for any Shipmates who who work for a charity or non-profit to weigh in on this.) The bad news? There's never enough revenue. There's always one more child to feed, one more addict to get off the streets, one more village which needs a heifer or a water well. Every charity is always searching for more resources, especially money.
Yes, mailing out pretty pamphlets or appeal letters on behalf of little Hadji in Trashcanistan costs money, but so does buying bags of rice, gallons of petrol, ammunition for the convoy's bodyguards, or paying off local warlords so workers can distribute food bags unmolested. Would you rather hand out 10 bags of rice or 10,000? Fundraising, as well as goods or services production/distribution are costs of doing business for any type of charity. (Some costs, of course, make it into the annual report; others are buried in that wonderful catchall, "Misc.")
Pretend you organize a charity: Frisbees for the Poor. Your goal: Put a Frisbee in every poor child's hand, no matter where he or she lives. "Frisbees for the world!", indeed.
Well, you've only got a few hundred dollars to your name. How many Frisbees can you buy and how far can you distribute them before you exhaust your funds? How much money can you spend (or do you *have* to spend) to advertise your charity in order to get more money (i.e., donors) to buy more Frisbeees and throw them farther and farther over the world? How much of a phone bill can you afford to accumulate calling politicians, reporters, bureaucrats, individual donors, all in the name of keeping that Frisbee for the Poor donor pipeline full and flowing?
Your phone bill might be $5,000/month and your printing bill $50,000/year, but as a result of that level of communication you raise $250,000 in funds! Many Frisbees for many people. More, in fact, than if you hadn't fund-raised.
The best-run charities spend as little as possible on fund-raising and management but ensure they get the highest possible return for their investment.
Now, I hate junk mail as much as anyone and more than most. (Don't even me started on spam.) When I donate money to a charity, I will write, "Do not solicit" or "Do not mail" on the envelope or form. If I get such mail, I will politely call the charity and ask them to please remove me from their mailing list, which normally takes about 3-6 months to accomplish.
All of this to say that funding a charitable organization is much harder than it might seem and there are easy steps you can take to stop the flow of appeals to you.
[/tangent]
Posted by papillon (# 1389) on
:
Hey all,
Marmot, I agree with Raspberry Rabbit, stop the bloody moaning woman, you have NO IDEA what it's like for those people you (very nicely) sent money to. I wonder if you're not trying to blacken the name of charity-givers and only wrote your op from the position of devil's advocate?
As for you Erin, you should not call people hypocrites for not coming not on an issue 100% one way or the other. Life isn't all black and white. It is the case that alot of people blame the USA for all the world's ills and that is wrong, but Americans getting all sensitive for the slightest bit of criticism only adds fuel to the fire. You think no-one criticises other countries? You think no-one criticies Britain for the old-Empire days? GET REAL folks and stop talking every criticism of your country so bloody personally. It's a great nation but like all nations, it makes mistakes.
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
Christ Almighty, papillon, you're just as thick as the rest of them. You people need remedial reading lessons.
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
:
papillion, you presumptuous little shit, how dare you pretend to know what someone else knows about the world? And while we're at it, how dare you act like you know what life is like for marmot?
Are you really stupid enough to try to lecture everyone here? If so, you can go fuck yourself too. Raspberry Rabbit can show you how.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
Don't ever assume that I, or others, take anything, running water, healthcare, issues of life and death, freedom, anything for granted. Don't assume that we only give money to starving orphans on charity brochures and not work on the root causes of worldwide poverty--including those causes here at home. Don't assume that you know what I and others do to achieve a fairer world--this is Hell and I don't owe you an itemized list. If we haven't solved the problem to your timetable and satisfaction, try putting all the energy you spend into yank-bashing into volunteering and see what happens.
YES! YES! YES! Rant on, Marmot! You ROCK! Ahhhhhhh-men!
And don't forget all the aid we send that ends up on the black market, or siphoned off for the sole benefit of the ruling class. Good intentions can only do so much in the face of massive corruption.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Rossweisse // coraggio, Marmot!
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
Yeah, fuck you, Raspberry Rabbit.
People post here to entertain ME!
...which, admittedly, Marmot didn't do the greatest job of, the little whiner.
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
I had really not considered myself either reading impaired nor particularly stupid but, like I said above, we are usually more accurately viewed by others than we are by ourselves. I shall sign up for an eye exam and have my IQ retested.
The heart of Marmot's original post and the question (though not posed as a question) was how one might
quote:
...be thankful and enjoy our blessings without feeling guilty all the time because someone else doesn?t have the same?
Which is a tremendous question and one that anybody genuinely sensitive to the pain around them has to ask. Unfortunately the kernel of the rant was surrounded by other bits and pieces which were 'way' over the top and making fun of them is a good thing to do because, after all, this is Hell, I'm ornery and if four out of five shipmates, dentists or actuaries don't agree then they can just pound salt.
quote:
After decades of living below our means to support starving children, homeless, handicapped.... <snip> ... I GIVE UP.
quote:
As a family, we don't practice self-denial for congratulations. But it would be nice if the rest of the world would just get off our backs for a week or two.
quote:
we?d like to take time off from saving the world once in a while to enjoy a picnic and a ball game with the kids?
quote:
Who pays for it all? Me, and a million others like me
quote:
I am sick, sick, sick of trying to care for the whole world at the expense of my own family and getting nothing but grief for it.
To which the only possible answer would seem to be 'then *don't*. Come down from the cross for a spell and let others take up the challenge. Play ball! Go on your picnic!
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by halibut (# 3115) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Okay, how is it that just about EVERYBODY on this thread has missed the point?
Well how about reiterating the point if you think everyone's too dumb to get it?
As for US-bashing: You poor babies. I can see now how criticism of the first world is just so oppressive and unfair. I shall stop forthwith.
Hal, growling
Posted by Rhisiart (# 69) on
:
/TANGENT AND BUSH BASHING ALERT
quote:
Posted by kenwritez:
...mailing out pretty pamphlets or appeal letters on behalf of little Hadji in Trashcanistan...
Trashcanistan ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You should mention it to Dubya - he'll either bomb it or make it part of the 'axis of evil'
/TANGENT AND BUSH BASHING END
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
quote:
As for US-bashing: You poor babies. I can see now how criticism of the first world is just so oppressive and unfair. I shall stop forthwith.
You were clearly raised by baboons, you dumbass, or do you really not understand the difference between "US-bashing" and criticism?
Cecil Almighty, give me strength to deal with the terminally ignorant among us. Amen.
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
I've little time for people justifying conspicuous consumption and stilted social structures because they also give to charities, support little Koko in Malawi and intend to leave a certain amount of their estate to the SPCA
Conspicuous Consumption: Label applied to the lifestyle of someone whose lifestyle you are envious of. Most often used by over-pampered scions of the middle and upper-middle class who have no real idea what poverty is. See middle class socialist brat.
Sieg
Posted by halibut (# 3115) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
You were clearly raised by baboons, you dumbass, or do you really not understand the difference between "US-bashing" and criticism?
Cecil Almighty, give me strength to deal with the terminally ignorant among us. Amen.
*bow*
I shall send your fond wishes to my parents.
In the mean time, I'm unutterably fed up with whingy first-world gits who, on the basis of a whiff of criticism of collective actions, get into a ridiculous little snit about "oooh, they're bashing us! They're trying to make me feel guilty. It's not faaiiir"
I know damn well the difference between criticism and bashing. This is precisely the reason that I'm so annoyed.
H
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
Oh please, if it was just a matter of "the US government does X, and it's wrong because of Y and Z" it would be FINE. That ISN'T what we're talking about. What we're talking about is "the American people are lazy/selfish/[fill in the blank]", and I'm sick and tired of it. Now, if (the general) you engage in the former, then this whole rant isn't directed at you. If you have EVER said the latter, then shut your freakin' piehole and go pleasure yourself with a syphilitic goat.
[ 25. October 2002, 19:04: Message edited by: Erin ]
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
go pleasure yourself with a syphilitic goat.
If you can't find one, we'll extend a little more charity and send you one free of charge. No thanks expected.
Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on
:
A syphilitic goat? Now that would be an interesting addition to the Heifer Project (a group of which I, too, am a fan).
Here's my question for Halibut. S/he wrote: quote:
Personally I'm sick of my tax money (off my limited salary paid in a devalued currency in a poor(ish) country) being used to subsidise the First World. How does that happen? By our running several excellent universities, many of whose graduates run off to first world careers as soon as they graduate.
How precisely is it the fault of the First World if there's a brain drain out of South Africa? If a First World company recruits talented young South Africans, that seems to be interpreted as evidence of high-handedness and cultural imperialism. If, however, a First World company institutes a policy of refusing to hire talented young South Africans on the ground that they have a moral obligation to use their gifts in service to their own country, I doubt people would be happy with that either.
On this particular point, isn't your dispute with talented young South Africans, and not the First World?
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Conspicuous Consumption: Label applied to the lifestyle of someone whose lifestyle you are envious of. Most often used by over-pampered scions of the middle and upper-middle class who have no real idea what poverty is. See middle class socialist brat .
Oh, bravo, Siegfried! Well played!
While Halibut has another tantrum:
quote:
In the mean time, I'm unutterably fed up with whingy first-world gits who, on the basis of a whiff of criticism of collective actions, get into a ridiculous little snit about "oooh, they're bashing us! They're trying to make me feel guilty. It's not faaiiir"
The last time I checked, envy was one of the Seven Deadlies. The fact that you can blame America for a brain drain in South Africa (!) shows the extent of your derangement on this issue (at least).
The people of the United States do a tremendous amount of generous good in the world, as individuals, as churches, and even -- yes! -- as a legal entity. We can't do it all. And there's no substitute for personal responsibility, for that matter.
quote:
I know damn well the difference between criticism and bashing. This is precisely the reason that I'm so annoyed.
Well, that's the reason we're annoyed, too, since if you DO know the difference, you really ought to try demonstrating same.
Rossweisse // wondering what happened to the steadfast Brits of yore
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on
:
[Complete tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Rossweisse // wondering what happened to the steadfast Brits of yore
Steadfast in support of whom, or of what cause? Not wishing to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing you mean Brits in support of America? If this is the case, there are still plenty of those around (whether that is a good thing or not is a matter for another thread). Please note that most of the opposition on this thread is coming from non-British residents. Do not start another Anglo-American war over this rant.
Viki
[/Complete tangent]
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
also spracht Siegfried
quote:
Conspicuous Consumption: Label applied to the lifestyle of someone whose lifestyle you are envious of. Most often used by over-pampered scions of the middle and upper-middle class who have no real idea what poverty is. See middle class socialist brat.
Quick, Siefried - lock your house. Conrad Black has done snuck in and posted under your name. He forgot to use the word 'snivelling'. He usually does that.
Now - if they were from within the middle and upper classes and their livelihood was wrapped up with the consumption patterns of the west then it wouldn't be envy would it. And if they were looking at the west from the outside then they could conceivably know something about poverty.
N'est ce pas?
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
also spracht Rosseweisse (also)
quote:
wondering what happened to the steadfast Brits of yore
Hmmm. They're the ones who lost India, non?
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
also spracht Siegfried
quote:
Conspicuous Consumption: Label applied to the lifestyle of someone whose lifestyle you are envious of. Most often used by over-pampered scions of the middle and upper-middle class who have no real idea what poverty is. See middle class socialist brat.
Quick, Siefried - lock your house. Conrad Black has done snuck in and posted under your name. He forgot to use the word 'snivelling'. He usually does that.
Now - if they were from within the middle and upper classes and their livelihood was wrapped up with the consumption patterns of the west then it wouldn't be envy would it. And if they were looking at the west from the outside then they could conceivably know something about poverty.
N'est ce pas?
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
(Bold mine).
Hey, RR, sure you don't have a reading problem? Cause Sieg talked about middle and upper-middle class people. And you somehow translated that into middle and upper class people. Whole different kettles of fish there.
[Gross generalisation]
Upper-middle class is stuff like doctors, lawyers, accountants, white-collar professionals, etc.
Upper class is peers, serious rich entrepeneurs (think Branson and Murdoch), landowners, etc.
[/Gross generalisation]
I am (conceivably) upper-middle class as my father is a middle manager at a huge pharmeceuticals company. Conspicuous consumption is a label I might apply to Tara Palmer-Tomkin (or whatever her name is), one of the 'It' girls. She goes on spending sprees with 'daddy's money', and buys Harrods basically. She'll drink nothing but champagne, only wear one-off/originals, and only date men who are worth a eight figure sum at least.
Hope this helps you - creating a strawman shows the paucity of your argument, don't you think?
Viki
[Added summat.]
[ 26. October 2002, 01:37: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
Sarkycow said
quote:
Hey, RR, sure you don't have a reading problem? Cause Sieg talked about middle and upper-middle class people. And you somehow translated that into middle and upper class people. Whole different kettles of fish there.
Well since we're splitting hairs here, what she said was:
quote:
Conspicuous Consumption: Label applied to the lifestyle of someone whose lifestyle you are envious of. Most often used by over-pampered scions of the middle and upper-middle class who have no real idea what poverty is. See middle class socialist brat .
Bolds mine, this time. More later - am over in Heaven trying to understand why people think romance is dead. Must have something to do with Erin's syphlitic goat.
Poor lamb
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
{fixed UBB code. Because I Care.}
[ 26. October 2002, 19:27: Message edited by: tomb ]
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
Fine - replace upper with upper-middle. The rest remains the same. Their lifestyles are still wrapped up with foolish patterns of consumption (although I'm now regretting speaking of 'conspicuous consumption' because I gave the impression that the problem was one of the proclivities of the rich and famous when, in fact, the problem is a pattern of unsustainable collective consumption in the west)
mea culpa
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by papillon (# 1389) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Oh please, if it was just a matter of "the US government does X, and it's wrong because of Y and Z" it would be FINE. That ISN'T what we're talking about. What we're talking about is "the American people are lazy/selfish/[fill in the blank]", and I'm sick and tired of it. Now, if (the general) you engage in the former, then this whole rant isn't directed at you. If you have EVER said the latter, then shut your freakin' piehole and go pleasure yourself with a syphilitic goat.
How amusing (...)
You know it's funny, Erin, Scot and others complain about some people who say all Americans are this that and the other, while you guys quite happilly tell people with questioning minds on these posts to go fuck themselves, find a goat etc. Now, imagine if those comentators in the media etc that do unfortunately offer blanket unthinking criticism of the US, told the whole United States to go fuck itself or assorted farm animals? I imagine the response would be nuclear (literally). I suggest Erin, Scot and Rossweille take it easy, relax, put your feet up, perhaps watch a a little tv, read a book, you know, 'chill'. Don't you see you're falling right into the trap, when someone criticises the US? I mean Jesus didn't get much thanks for all the charity and help he gave people a couple thousand years ago, but he did it anyway. That's the whole point. Sure it would be nice for countries and people who the West gives aid to to say thank-you, and alot of them do. But should we only give to those people who are going to say thanks and never criticise us? Do some of you think that you're 'buying' the goodwill of poorer people at home and overseas, buying their silence and never-ending support with aid donations?
Posted by makesachange (# 2424) on
:
MINOR TANGENT
Ok, I know this is a discussion in Hell, and for what it's worth Marmont I think it was a brave, honest and good post.
My Problem is the fact that although this is Hell, the debate so far has included (in no particular order):
"dumbass"
"Asshole"
"fuck you"
"go fuck yourself"
"Dickweed"
Am I missing the point about this being a Christian website ?
I'm not a prude, can swear with the best of yo muthas, but am kinda wondering if this is what it's going to be then what's the point of the ship and what makes it different from everyonther freakin' place on the net ?
Posted by papillon (# 1389) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Here's my question for Halibut. S/he wrote: quote:
Personally I'm sick of my tax money (off my limited salary paid in a devalued currency in a poor(ish) country) being used to subsidise the First World. How does that happen? By our running several excellent universities, many of whose graduates run off to first world careers as soon as they graduate.
How precisely is it the fault of the First World if there's a brain drain out of South Africa? If a First World company recruits talented young South Africans, that seems to be interpreted as evidence of high-handedness and cultural imperialism. If, however, a First World company institutes a policy of refusing to hire talented young South Africans on the ground that they have a moral obligation to use their gifts in service to their own country, I doubt people would be happy with that either.
On this particular point, isn't your dispute with talented young South Africans, and not the First World?
In my view the problem goes deeper than that Presleytarian. The European Union and the United States, who between them make up over two-thirds of the world economy, with less than one-sixth of the population, erect trade barriers that prevent poorer countires like South Africa from selling their goods to us competitively. Meanwhile, we, either by direct pressure of via the IMF, expect these immature economies to apply free-market economics and 0% trade tariffs. So the reason why in the first place a South-African might be so attracted to a job in the US or Europe, is that by closing off large sections of our wealthy economies to south African products (especially agriculture, Europe and the US subsidise their own by hundreds of billions of dollars/euros) South Africa cannot compete on an even playing field, that makes her poorer and less able to grow her economy quickly enough to catch up with us. It's obviously not all our faults (and where it is, more so on our governments than we, the peoples), but if our govt's only opened our markets more and cut down on our subsidies it would have such an incredible benefit, that many countries would no longer need our aid and would be able to earn their own living legitimately through trade with us.
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
papillon, you are an idiot. I mean, you must have clinically scored in the "idiot" range on an IQ test in the past. Either that, or you're one of the monkeys that's trying to type the works of Shakespeare. At any rate, I don't want anybody to thank me, or the US. I just want them to stop blaming us for everything. Or are you really too stupid to understand this?
makesachange: all we want to do is not be like every other boring Christian site on the web. Which is why the eternally-debated no-resolution subjects are relegated to Dead Horses, and why we don't get our collective knickers in a twist when people here are not Stepford Christians.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by sarkycow:
Steadfast in support of whom, or of what cause? Not wishing to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing you mean Brits in support of America? ...
No, no, more like the sturdy, pull-up-your-socks-and-get-on-with-it, non-whinging, realistic Brits (I am counting residents of non-US former British Empire countries in this; it seems to me that they do share certain thought patterns) of yore.
Their support of America is not the issue (at least for me); the complacency, smugness and NSL (non-specific loathing) of my country, its people and its place in the world that I seem to be seeing here is.
The United States is far from perfect, politically, socially, or in any other way (although we do have the world's best pizza). We are a rich country, and a generous country. While I personally deplore my government's attempts to act as Policeman to the World, when we send in our soldiers it is (I firmly believe) not to build ourselves an empire, but to help the innocent and defeat evil. (Yes, al-Queda is evil, IMO.) We don't ask for repayment; we even help to rebuild our erstwhile enemies.
But for some folks, it seems, nothing we do is ever good enough, and no sacrifice we make is ever great enough. We're supposed to feel guilty for living in a rich country, even though we are a generous country. No sensible person ever expects gratitude, but ankle-biting goes a bit too far.
Finally, it is NOT my intention to start an Anglo-American flame war. I love Britain and (most) things British. But I do feel obliged to respond to sweepingly anti-American sentiments, at least some of the time, regardless of the originators.
Rossweisse // Rudyard Kipling, where are you now that we need you?
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
Sarkycow said
quote:
Hey, RR, sure you don't have a reading problem? Cause Sieg talked about middle and upper-middle class people. And you somehow translated that into middle and upper class people. Whole different kettles of fish there.
Well since we're splitting hairs here, what she said was:
quote:
Conspicuous Consumption: Label applied to the lifestyle of someone whose lifestyle you are envious of. Most often used by over-pampered scions of the middle and upper-middle class who have no real idea what poverty is. See middle class socialist brat .
Bolds mine, this time. More later - am over in Heaven trying to understand why people think romance is dead. Must have something to do with Erin's syphlitic goat.
Poor lamb
Well, for starters I'm male.
Secondly, 'Middle-class Socialist Brat' is a reference to a song by Oingo Boingo about the sort of person who goes on about the plight of the oppressed lower classes and working class but has never done a lick of real work in his/her own life.
Sieg
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
Following a fairly defensible post by Papillon, Erin wrote:
quote:
papillon, you are an idiot. I mean, you must have clinically scored in the "idiot" range on an IQ test in the past. Either that, or you're one of the monkeys that's trying to type the works of Shakespeare.
Erin, find the dial above the bed and turn it 'down'
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
Yo, Rabbit, my response was to the post timestamped 16:02, in which he spouted unadulterated crap.
Posted by Ley Druid (# 3246) on
:
I agree with Scot, Erin, RuthW and all the other Americans.
Down here we don't concern ourselves too much with "brain drain", but if beautiful women want to come to South Beach from all over the world, I don't see what's wrong with that. Lord knows I could buy myself a few more drinks with the generous tip money I leave, but that's just my little way of quote:
trying to care for the whole world at the expense of my own family and getting nothing but grief for it --what Marmot said
quote:
I don't want anybody to thank me, or the US. I just want them to stop blaming us for everything. --what Erin said
Proud to be an American. I love George Bush.
Posted by blackbird (# 1387) on
:
yes, siegfried, i haven't heard that song, but i could imagine there could be a verse about how so many champions for the poor don't tend to have any poor "friends" (unless you include the out-of-work phd friend). or if they do, they don't emphasize it in certain company unless it's to their advantage.
Posted by Qlib (# 43) on
:
Is this another American issue? Isn't this just the rich moaning about how they subsidise the poor? Happens everywhere.
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
No, Qlib, this is NOT about the rich bitching about subsidizing the poor. The light from that discussion would take billions of years to reach this one. It's about being told, CONSTANTLY, by people who are comparatively not that far behind us in the riches stakes, how awful we are. This has nothing to do with what is said in so-called "third world" countries, and CERTAINLY nothing to do with the amount of aid that the US drops elsewhere. It has EVERYTHING to do with what other first-worlders -- who desperately need to remove the forests growing out of their own eyes -- expect from US.
Jesus, is it really this hard to understand?
[ 26. October 2002, 23:18: Message edited by: Erin ]
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
:
What you sanctimonious MCSB's (thank you, Siegfried) just don't get is that we don't want anything from you. We don't want your congratulations, adulations, thanks, condemnations, exhortations or lectures. We just want you to leave us alone.
Our personal sacrifices are none of your business. Until you can muster some collective moral high ground, our national level of charity is none of your business either.
Posted by Qlib (# 43) on
:
Yeah, well.... substitute 'Britain' for 'US' and you'll hear exactly the same thing being said in British saloon bars. It's the price of privilege. Of course, I know there are poor people in both countries. And I know we all work flat out to save the world all the live long day ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
so I guess no-one will mind (or even notice) if we take the odd half-day off occasionally. Or treat ourselves to the occasional little extravagance such as air-conditioned/centrally heated housing or fresh vegetables flown half-way round the globe to fill our supermarket shelves - oh yes, or subsidising the sale of arms to our poor brothers and sisters who need them so desperately. How many of us w*rk our butts off for that noble cause?
Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on
:
Papillon wrote: quote:
...but if our govt's only opened our markets more and cut down on our subsidies it would have such an incredible benefit, that many countries would no longer need our aid and would be able to earn their own living legitimately through trade with us.
Well, boy howdy, Papillon, I think you just quoted from the Republican Party platform.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
... so I guess no-one will mind (or even notice) if we take the odd half-day off occasionally. Or treat ourselves to the occasional little extravagance such as air-conditioned/centrally heated housing...
In most of the American south air-conditioning is not a luxury; it's a necessity. Most people find it impossible to sleep when the termperature in their room is ninety degrees F, and the humidity is high. If they don't sleep well, they are not productive at work the next day. The South was an economically depressed region until air-conditioning became widespread.
In the same way, in areas where the winter temperatures normally reach twenty below zero, central heating is not a luxury.
When I lived in Ireland, the difference between the highest temperature in summer and the lowest in winter was a matter of about fifty degrees. When I lived in New Hampshire, it was a matter of one hundred, twenty-five degrees. In Britain, air-conditioning and central heating may be luxuries; in many parts of the US they're not.
Moo
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
:
The hypocrisy on this thread is too much. I invoke the spirit of Cecil the Ignorance Slayer in the hopes that some of his aura will flow over some of you.
I quit.
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
Rossweisse says
quote:
No, no, more like the sturdy, pull-up-your-socks-and-get-on-with-it, non-whinging, realistic Brits (I am counting residents of non-US former British Empire countries in this; it seems to me that they do share certain thought patterns) of yore.
What a lot of adjectives! So what is this drivel about 'sturdy brits of yore' and 'Oh, well played!' and 'Rudyard Kipling, where are you now that we need you?'
Sturdy brits of yore?
You mean all those women with large hands and prominent adam's apples who delighted in cold showers and coached girls' field hockey?
quote:
While I personally deplore my government's attempts to act as Policeman to the World, when we send in our soldiers it is (I firmly believe) not to build ourselves an empire, but to help the innocent and defeat evil.
If the second part of the sentence is what you believe, when it is that you deplore your government's attempts to act as Policeman to the World?
quote:
But for some folks, it seems, nothing we do is ever good enough, and no sacrifice we make is ever great enough.
Right - we're back to the main point of the thread which is how we've all been stabbed in the backs by the ungrateful recipients of our charity and betrayed by the pampered brats in our own society who spend their lives clipping daddy's coupons.
Onward!
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by Deserted (# 3035) on
:
It must be hard being Erin!
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
Right - we're back to the main point of the thread which is how we've all been stabbed in the backs by the ungrateful recipients of our charity.
Except that it wasn't my point. I didn't make it clear enough for everyone, but Scot did very nicely on my behalf. We do what we can, we give what we can.
After that, a simple acknowledgement, not of our giving, but of our basic humanity and capacity for decent behavior, just like yours, is all that I want. Can't do it? Well, I'm sure you're doing your best, right?
Posted by Deserted (# 3035) on
:
That's okay papillion. About your earlier post about people still holding Britains toes to the fire because of their past imperialism. Everyone gets over it eventually. Rarely do I hear people criticizing Rome for their old empire days...or the mongol hordes, or the Vikings, or etc. Like Rabbit said, you can't be number one for ever... eventually comes the decline. Usually starts with a large smattering of arrogance...wouldn't you agree.
Hey Scot, presuming to know things about other people know about the world is how this ship of fools is played. someone writes twenty words, someone assumes two hundred words about the first twenty, someone else blames the first for something the second said etc. Then someone else assumes the subject is "blaming others" when it is about twenty words and vehemently that blaming others is wrong. Then something is said about america or britain blaming someone for something, then it becomes another us/brit thread. Holy books could be written this way. Of course you would need an editor I guess.
Limitations everywhere, reducing intelligent opinion sharing into scurrilous accusations, namecalling, profanity and goat fucking. So this is what he was talking about. Praise Jesus.
Posted by Deserted (# 3035) on
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I dunno Marmot. You know how it is with generalizations.....well... they're general. Because of that they are usually half baked. Besides guilt is overrated.
I've wondered if authentic actions ever need to be defended from the blarney stones of others. Might not even recognize the stones as they are being thrown.
Let go of some of the responsibility you seem to be feeling for every ill in the world. Seems to me you are falling prey to the trap the accusers are setting for you. Life is Hell.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Thankyou Kenwritez, for your long and detailed post on charity fundraising methods (on page 1 - it has taken me quite a while to catch up with this thread!)
Now look at the charity mailings from the recipient's point of view. You get a mailing out of the blue, read it and think it is a good idea. So you write a cheque for what you can and send it. The flyer you have to put in with the cheque has your name and address pre-printed on it. So you then receive another mailing, and another, and another. The message you feel you get isn't: 'Thank you so much for your donation', it is 'Hey you haven't sent enough, now we want some more!' It is quite disheartening and makes you feel like not giving to them in the future.
I have tried enclosing a cheque without the flyer, but I think once you give once your name is on a centralised mailing list. Surely the people who you should be targeting with the extra mailings are those who haven't given anything yet - not those who have already generously given?
Maybe the best thing (what I shall do in future) is to put money in collecting tins rather than by cheque. That way it is truly anonymous.
Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on
:
Some of us Brits do try to be stalwart, but our sense of fair play sometimes gets the better of us. And losing the taxes from large parts of north America didn't help our influence on the world
The UK government is currently trying to encourage it european neighbours to take a more active role both in world policing and in development aid. Or at least says it is. In response the US gov't protested that the EU is organizing its military as a cohesive force outside of it's NATO voting rights.
The USA does get blamed for the value system behind it's official policies, for example expending polluting energy (e.g. road and air transport, air-conditioning) in order to promote its own economy apparently irrespective of any environmental impact. On the over hand, it has one of the widest ranges of sustainable energy facilities of any nation, having installations in mountains for hydro, hot spots for geothermal and deserts for solar energy.
As democracies, the US and UK insist that the authority of its officials is based the consent of the populace, so the people get blamed for the actions of the officials. That a minority of the people work against such policies doesn't often get publicized, though some such organizations (e.g. greenpeace) are international and have their own propaganda networks, so we are aware that not all US citizens support such policies.
With respect to American pizza, in the UK fast-food suppliers of 'American Style' pizza (which may or may not be related) are being criticized for the amount of cheese and sweetened tomato in their products being a cause of obesity, so you all may be in for even more flak.
TME (Brit, who washes in cold water each morning)
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Machine Elf:
On the over hand, it has one of the widest ranges of sustainable energy facilities of any nation, having installations in mountains for hydro, hot spots for geothermal and deserts for solar energy.
Don't forget "windmill farms" in the northern plains, as well. The program to buy into wind power is very popular. It is common for elementary schools to use the money gained from recycling aluminum cans to buy a share of wind power.
quote:
With respect to American pizza, in the UK fast-food suppliers of 'American Style' pizza (which may or may not be related) are being criticized for the amount of cheese and sweetened tomato in their products being a cause of obesity, so you all may be in for even more flak.
A suggestion: vote with your feet. If sales are low, those places will disappear in a hurry.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
...Or treat ourselves to the occasional little extravagance such as air-conditioned/centrally heated housing...
And you live....where? When the summer temperatures (and humidity) regularly top 100, and when the winter temps spend weeks well below zero, these things are not an "extravagance." Your statement is sanctimonious claptrap.
Rossweisse // now enjoying those few precious weeks between "house sealed up" seasons
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
You mean all those women with large hands and prominent adam's apples who delighted in cold showers and coached girls' field hockey?
Oh, so you're a general misogynist as well as a kneejerk anti-American?
Please read for meaning next time.
quote:
Onward!
And, apparently, downward...
Rossweisse // from hypocrites and pious twits, good Lord deliver us
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
Neither - haven't said a single anti-american thing in the entire thread. Have attempted to limited my references to the 'first world'. If you want to pull them down around your own heads, fine, but I'm not doing that.
You're just so funny, Rossweisse, with your little uber-anglophile quips - like you're longing for days gone by. I guess that's a high church Episcopalian thing.
Mysogynist? Nah.....
RR
MTL
Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Until you can muster some collective moral high ground, our national level of charity is none of your business either.
Erin & Scot are too obviously right about this one. I say this only in the understanding that we are all shits.
I’ve just finished Ghandi on DVD and I shall fast unto death unless you all agree with me.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
I?ve just finished Ghandi on DVD and I shall fast unto death unless you all agree with me.
Is that a promise?
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Moo
Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on
:
Upon my bamboo staff it is.
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on
:
Actually the level of charitable giving in the United States is extremely high. The level of corporate giving to charitable concerns is also very high.
Too bad, in a way, that the questions in the OP can't be answered simply by reference to levels of charitable giving.
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
Erin & Scot are too obviously right about this one. I say this only in the understanding that we are all shits.
Just think of all the trouble we could have saved if only you'd realized this sooner.
scot
Posted by Ley Druid (# 3246) on
:
Once again Americans have demonstrated a keen sense for irony and erudite diction. I can't imagine how everyone else will recover from their sense of inferiority. At least maybe they'll quote:
stop blaming us for everything. --what Erin said
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
...I’ve just finished Ghandi on DVD and I shall fast unto death unless you all agree with me.
Go for it!
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil3.gif)
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
...You're just so funny, Rossweisse, with your little uber-anglophile quips - like you're longing for days gone by. I guess that's a high church Episcopalian thing.
Erin, could we please have an "Irony" smiley? (And I was an English lit major, which helps with that sort of thing. Now stop it RIGHT NOW, or I shall quote large chunks of Jane Austen at you.)
quote:
Mysogynist? Nah.....
I breathlessly await the evidence, although I will admit that we're wandering off-topic on that one.
Rossweisse // ho-hum
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Posted by Zeke (# 3271) on
:
Okay, several people have already mentioned this, but where I live we have 4 and a half to 5 months over 100F. It is illegal here to offer a place for rent that has no air conditioning. We certainly don't consider it an extravagance either.
Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
Erin & Scot are too obviously right about this one. I say this only in the understanding that we are all shits.
Just think of all the trouble we could have saved if only you'd realized this sooner.
scot
I was strictly limiting the scope of this phrase (wher's my lawyer?) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
My fast has started. I've cut out white bread and have resolved to use up what's in the fridge before buying any thing. Gather round my virtual bed as I weaken.
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
:
Hull Hound, you do realize that we won't give you the satisfaction, don't you? As soon as you lose consciousness we are going to use the money we've earned as capitalists and pay some doctor to insert a feeding tube. You will have to live on knowing that we will never agree with you.
By the way, starving socialists can't afford lawyers. You are also going to have to live with the knowledge that you have admitted that Erin and I are "obviously right."
scot
Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Hull Hound, you do realize that we won't give you the satisfaction, don't you? As soon as you lose consciousness we are going to use the money we've earned as capitalists and pay some doctor to insert a feeding tube.
(said other things)
scot
Not a feeding tube, the peoples' tube.
man cannot live on nutrition, hydration and antibiotics alone. Be strong.
Honestly , I can rank myself as better because I have a small car but I still have a car. Actually I don't, but that's not the point .
If I turn my heating down to 16 C, then I'm not an eco pioneer.
If the op was angry at a puritanical pressure then good. The world won't get better by self flagellation. (Chast go away)
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
...I'm not an eco pioneer.
Maybe not, but you'll be passable compost eventually.
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
...I'm not an eco pioneer.
Maybe not, but you'll be passable compost eventually.
It's been done.
Reader Alexis
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on
:
Only if Hull Hound consents to be buried.
Post-cremation ash (in fact no such thing-it's charred bone fragments) makes very poor compost; it's only fit for concrete mix.
Of course he can always leave his remains to the medical students!
cheers ,
m (who actually did learn some anatomy courtesy of said generous donors)
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
...it's only fit for concrete mix.
Ah well, he can be mixed into a flagstone then, and call it post-consumer recycled material.
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on
:
Very American(or Italo-American)move over, Mario Puzo!
Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Only if Hull Hound consents to be buried.
Post-cremation ash (in fact no such thing-it's charred bone fragments) makes very poor compost; it's only fit for concrete mix. (snipped)
Concrete! I’d never build with such a greenhouse gas intensive composite. Surely, you have none! Surely you haven’t!
It’s so marginal in the wider scheme whether I have only one, two or three cars, air-con, or only central heating set at high, medium or frio.
I heat one room of my house in winter only and don’t drive a car. Hot water is off an instant boiler. I do it because I want to. I do it because I only need one room, I don’t have a family, if and when I do, the central heating comes back in and cars as needed. I do other stuff which isn’t nearly so eco-lessdamaging, but I refuse to be miserable, puritanical and self-congratulatory about it. Stop considering yourselves saints. It is pukeworthy.
[A bit like your UBB code]
[ 30. October 2002, 14:22: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
...I refuse to be miserable, puritanical and self-congratulatory about it. Stop considering yourselves saints. It is pukeworthy.
I thought Brits were supposed to be good at recognizing irony?
Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on
:
There are one or two Brits who are genetic anomalies who can't.
Posted by marmot (# 479) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
Stop considering yourselves saints.
Sure. Start behaving like the Universal Citizen you claim to be and we'll be even.
Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on
:
Marmot, I refuse to exchange fleas with you.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hull Hound:
...Stop considering yourselves saints. It is pukeworthy.
Yeah, yeah, right. I'm going to find Erin and go have a drink. Enough of this self-righteous bilge from the greener-than-thou crowd.
Rossweisse //
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