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Originally posted by OgtheDim:
What are people's thoughts on referring to God using the 3rd person singular female pronoun?

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Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
In maytters of faith and divine invocation I won't do anything that the Church and the Bible does not do. That's not to say that our Heavenly Father doesn't have a motherly concern for us HE does. But, it's still "He."

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Originally posted by daisymay:
Since God is the fount and source of the characteristics of both feminine and masculine ("Let us make humans in our own image" "male and female"), it seems to me biblical, theologically sound and appropriate to use "she" as well as "he" for God.

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1. The terminology used in the Bible of the church as "The Bride of Christ", this seems to me to require in relation to humanity a masculinity in Gods nature. If we reject this, we might as well say that it would be equally justified for Christ to have been female and for the church to be called Christ's bridegroom. Could we say that without profoundly altering our theology?

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Matt, that sounds like a whole host of slippery slope arguments to me. Do you know a real person who regularly refers to God as "she" who has any of the problems you think would result from this usage?

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to imagine the Church as groom and Christ as bride would not alter my theology at all. Certainly not profoundly.

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
My assumption is that God in his omnicience already knows what the consequences of calling God "She" would be, and in his wisdom has commanded against it.

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
Whole other thread there really...

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:

1. The terminology used in the Bible of the church as "The Bride of Christ", this seems to me to require in relation to humanity a masculinity in Gods nature. If we reject this, we might as well say that it would be equally justified for Christ to have been female and for the church to be called Christ's bridegroom. Could we say that without profoundly altering our theology? Matt

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Originally posted by linzc:
To give a concrete example, in the church I am currently attending we sing a song which refers to God as mother and describes various feminine features.

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I refer to God almost invariably as male because as others have said, unusual language about God just draws attention to itself. I think feminine language is perfectly legitimate, but I also agree that the male language, at least for two persons of the Trinity, is so deeply ingrained in Christian devotion that it is pointless to try to change it.

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Originally posted by Bonzo:
Surely not pointless. Surely all the more reason? I may be no friend of political correctness but I do feel it's important to challenge peoples sterotypes. Refer to God as she and you will make people think differently about her (and possibly make people think differently about women too).

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
In the case of the person who chooses to reject caling God "he" altogether in favour of calling God "She", then they have already fallen into the trap of worshipping primarily the aspects of God they happen to like (ie.the feminine ones).

You may say that I, by by choosing to call God "he", am doing the same in reverse. I disagree. The difference being I did not choose call God "he". I call him he because that is what Jesus told me to call him.

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It is quite true that someone who thinks to themselves "shall I call God he or she?" and then chooses to call God "he" (as if it were a matter of their choice what God's gender is, rather than Gods) would be equally guilty of only worshipping the aspects of God that they chose to worship.

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Re the "bride of Christ" thing: I think the problem with this lies in the fact that Paul drew an analogy with something that existed at the time, but was not necessarily ideal in itself (except for God). OK, that maybe doesnt make much sense, but:

The relationship between a first-century husband and wife was unequal. This does not mean such inequality is a good thing in this case.

The relationship between a 21st-century husband and wife (at least in the West) is much more likely to be more equal, if not totally equal. Thus the apparent interchangeability, due to both being equal human beings.

But God and the Church are not interchangeable, nor are they equal! By calling the Church "the bride of Christ", Paul was saying the relationship between God and the Church is and/or should be unequal in the same way that a first-century husband/wife relationship was unequal, without actually condoning that inequality - merely using it as a reference point.

Hope that makes a bit more sense.

As for God's gender or transcendence thereof, I think Viki puts it exactly right:

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God doesn't have gender. God is in all places, at all times, beyond all knowing. And you think you can squeeze God into a certain construct? That's like finding a biblical proof that God had a certain hair or eye colour as Jesus, and so deciding that God has that colour hair, or those colour eyes. Or like ascribing an age to God.

You limit God by assigning a gender. Then your cultural and social thought-patterns regarding that gender (even subconsciously) colour your thoughts about God.

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"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
17: For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

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This is something with which I’ve struggled for a long time. I realize that, for some, all of this is nonsense. But for me, it’s vitally important.

For reasons I won’t go into here, I can’t relate to God as male, let alone “father”. Because of this, sitting through a church service injures me, with each and every word about God—and I don’t go to church anymore.

I spent years searching for Christian resources that referred to the Divine Feminine. This was when they were very hard to find. I looked for appropriate groups, without much luck. I spoke to my then-minister. He’s of the “it’s all symbols, anyway” view; so while he was somewhat sympathetic, he really didn’t get it.

So…I looked elsewhere. I found some wonderful resources in Paganism, especially when I discovered the magazine, “Sagewoman”. I’ve found, over the years, that many Pagan women are wounded, former Christians and Jews. Some can’t tolerate anything from their former faith. Others bridge/combine different traditions, because they can’t fill their needs any other way. Often, this involves referring to God/dess as “She”.

SaraJane, thanks for your lovely paragraph about other images of God! Important to remember, because many people can’t relate to God as any kind of parent. The Bible uses many other kinds of God-language, but we’ve gotten stuck in a “parent” rut.

I did, eventually, find more Christian resources for acknowledging Her. I’ve yet to find a worship group. God and I are working all of this out, slowly.

For anyone else who’s looking for resources, see what I and others posted on the “Feminism & Religion” thread ( here )

Also, 2 beautiful children’s books about names for God:

In God’s Name, by Sandy Eisenberg Sasso
Old Turtle, by Douglas Wood

For those who find all of this to be nonsense, perhaps it’s because the Names you use work for you. But what they didn’t??

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Re the "bride of Christ" thing: I think the problem with this lies in the fact that Paul drew an analogy with something that existed at the time, but was not necessarily ideal in itself (except for God). OK, that maybe doesnt make much sense, but..

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You limit God by assigning a gender. Then your cultural and social thought-patterns regarding that gender (even subconsciously) colour your thoughts about God.

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but does anyone else refer to the Holy Spirit as 'she'? I don't do it all the time, but sometimes I find it helpful, depending on the situation. And it's certainly much better than referring to The Spirit as an 'it', which I've heard many times.

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Originally posted by golden key:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:

I've felt an inner spiritual healing of the hurts caused by my bad relationship with my earthly father, by replacing him with God as Father.

Doesn't work for me. It's like penicillin--very good for many people, but others are deathly allergic to it.

It seems to me, that such an inclusive approach, to deal with this problem, just leaves people unhealed. The issue of pain, needs to be dealt with, using inclusive language, for this reason, papers the cracks, in my opinion.

I disagree. Forcing yourself to use the hurtful language is papering over the pain. Using other language acknowledges it, gives you a way to approach God without being limited by your experiences every time--and is very healing.

It's hard to heal when you're constantly reinjuring the wound.

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:

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but does anyone else refer to the Holy Spirit as 'she'? I don't do it all the time, but sometimes I find it helpful, depending on the situation.

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It seems to me more valid to refer to the Holy Spirit as a "She" then of the other two Persons of the Trinity. It is notable, that of the three persons of the Trinity.

However, the Bible seems to me to positively encourage us to see the Spirit as multi-faceted and describe the presence of the Spirit in whatever terms best fits with our current experience of it. The writers of scripture constantly grapple with different metaphors to describe the Spirit. (Eg. refreshing like water, burning like fire, unseen power like the wind, gentle like a dove). When speaking of the Spirits gentle ministering touch, to describe the Spirit as "she" seems entirely appropriate.

matt

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
I imagine that would make conversations about God rather complicated.

"Can I tell you about God?"
"Sure."
"You loves you."
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You know, (and You knows! ) that's not what I meant. Pronouns are not simply placeholders for nouns & names, but make a statement about them which, in the case of God, it is not accurate to make. Got is not "it." God is not "she." God is not "he." Every time we use an English 3rd-person pronoun to refer to God, we imply something about God that is not strictly true.

Wm Duncan

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I have overcome a fiercely anti-Catholic upbringing in order to attend Mass simply and solely to escape Protestant guitars. Why am I here? Who gave these nice Catholics guitars?
-- Annie Dillard

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Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
I have never seen myself as assigning a gender to God beyond that which God has given us to call him...the gender which CHRIST assigned to him and as his disiple I have followed.

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• God is close (like the relationship between a toddler/little kid and a parent in a good family), so you don't have to stand on ceremony. Speak simply and from the heart.
• Rocognise that God made everything and everyone, and is all-powerful and all-knowing and awesome and wise and great and good. Give God praise and glory and thanks before you do anything else.
• Ask for what you need. God already knows it, but ask anyway, cause God loves you and loves giving you stuff.
• Say sorry for things you've done that have stuffed up relationships, both with God and with others.
• Ask God to keep you safe, to protect you and be with you.

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
I imagine that would make conversations about God rather complicated.

"Can I tell you about God?"
"Sure."
"You loves you."
[snip]

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