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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: What is the best layout/architecture for a new worship space?
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Gwalchmai
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# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
One thing I'm sad has fallen out of church architecture, at least in the United States, is bell towers. If new churches even have a tower, it's usually purely decorative.
Not that bell ringing was ever very big in the United States. Most churches only had the one bell back in the day, and churches that do have bells often don't even ring them. Trinity Church, Copley Square, the finest church building of any denomination in the city of Boston with likely the wealthiest congregation, doesn't even have a bell.
You have to go to Old North Church if you want to hear proper change ringing in Boston.
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
Well that's not true at all. The Church of the Advent in Beacon Hill has a fine set of change ringing bells that are rung between the sung and solemn high masses most every Sunday and feast day. The MIT Bellringers first ring the Advent's bells then trundle off to the North End to ring Old North's bells after its main morning Eucharist.
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
Ok, since I wrote the OP I'll take my stab at suggesting my "ideal" newly-constructed church:
-Cruciform in shape with a long nave and wide arms. Pews.
-Large open space at the crossing in front of a dais (with steps and wheelchair ramps), atop which are a free-standing altar (for Mass celebrated versus populum), a big pulpit to one side and a significant but moveable presider's chair and small lectern at the other side. If a priest ever wanted to celebrate Mass ad orientem with six candles, or even celebrate a Tridentine Mass, s/he could.
-a removable altar rail at the foot of these stairs that is thin enough that people can receive standing if they wish. Gaps in the altar rail for wheelchairs to pass through.
-Two main crucifixes, one on the wall of the apse behind the altar (perhaps part of a non-high altar reredos of sorts?) and another above the main door on the opposite end of the nave, so the priest when celebrating versus populum has a crucifix to look at during the Eucharistic prayer that isn't on the altar between him/her and the people.
-choir, organ console, piano, and any other instruments in one transept. Space designed to accomodate modern instruments if they are used.
-imposing tabernacle to one side of the altar but still in the chancel or apse, ideally facing directly opposite the presider's chair.
-large baptismal font that can be used for immersions (with an elevated mini-font for infants pouring into it) at the entrance to the nave. Font perhaps on a dais so people can see it from anywhere in the church, even the transepts.
-traditional decor but not cluttered. Biblical/saint figures depicted as our best guess of how they would have appeared at the time, with saints drawn from a variety of cultures.
-The large space in the crossing can be used for performances or other events but under no circumstances can performers stand in the middle in front of the altar or in front of the tabernacle. The blessed sacrament should be removed from the tabernacle before any such event. (Ideally, for social gatherings and performances and lectures that are maybe a bit too secular for the worship space, there will be a parish assembly hall. This is difficult in urban parishes where space is at a premium, though.)
Note that a lot of these features are not things I necessarily would want but that I feel are necessary in a modern liturgical space with a multicultural congregation. Personally, I would want a small cruciform church with an altar facing the apse and a tabernacle and crucifix on the apse wall. This just isn't realistic for large congregations, which are the norm now, and for congregants who have big cultural reservations with ad orientem celebration that it would take generations of catechesis to overcome.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Well that's not true at all. The Church of the Advent in Beacon Hill has a fine set of change ringing bells that are rung between the sung and solemn high masses most every Sunday and feast day. The MIT Bellringers first ring the Advent's bells then trundle off to the North End to ring Old North's bells after its main morning Eucharist.
The ones at Advent are muffled, since I don't suppose the residents of Beacon Hill are going to let their rich people activities be interrupted by the clatter of church bells. Sigh.
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
This is true; however, I don't know if they were ever designed to be "unmuffled," per se. I have heard that when they were rehung in the mid 20th Century, they were hung lower in the tower, but I don't know what effect that has.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
49 dongs rang out from my pad today. There will be 89 on Monday. It's a to me previously unknown and quaint local custom to conclude a funeral with one dong for each of the years of the deceased's life.
This custom is mentioned by John Betjeman in "English Parish Churches" (1958) and (I think) by Ronald Blythe in "Akenfield" (1967).
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
And in the Dorothy Sayers book The Nine Tailors.
Blah, Lord Peter. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
Two things I tend not to like in churches, for vague reasons:
1. Soaring, eye-lifting architecture but the furnishings are just a bunch of stuff at floor level: pews, drum set, music stands, little tables, folks milling about.
2. Gothic architecture and furnishings but some stuff has been moved to be diagonal, like the sedilia...formerly parallel to the center aisle. Not sure why this bothers me. Is there something basic about Gothic churches that makes everything need to be parallel or perpendicular to look OK to me?
3. Contemporary (usually bland, mall-like) architecture but with arches or other features designed to evoke a style that the church isn't. This says to me, "If this were an actual Gothic/Romanesque church, there would be an actual window here, in this shape, sort of."
And by "two things," I mean three. Two things bother me; of three things my heart is disturbed...yes, I meant to use that Biblical poetic device. Sure, I did.
[ 06. December 2013, 19:30: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
Where is the 'like'button around here, Oblatus?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
I like relative plainness in a church, but Catholic/monastic plainness rather than Nonconformist - not iconoclasm. Seems to be difficult to find in UK parish churches though - does anyone have any examples? Lady chapels/side chapels count.
Speaking of Lady chapels and other side chapels, what are others' preferences? Ones where they are almost a separate room, or barely more than a wall shrine? Or something else? I personally like Lady/side chapels to reflect something of the BVM/the saint being honoured, which is easier to achieve in a more closed-off space (like the ones in Westminster Cathedral for example).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
On a practical level, because I've suffered from the lack of this, side-chapels should be able to be closed off with some kind of sound barrier from main spaces or hallways.
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ldjjd
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# 17390
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Posted
It is sometimes desirable to design side chapels that open to the nave and can be used for overflow seating. My parish's Lady chapel, located in the south transept and furnished with chapel chairs, serves such double duty.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I like relative plainness in a church, but Catholic/monastic plainness rather than Nonconformist - not iconoclasm. Seems to be difficult to find in UK parish churches though - does anyone have any examples? Lady chapels/side chapels count.
I suppose it depends what you call plain. What about this ? A wonderfully light and airy space.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I like relative plainness in a church, but Catholic/monastic plainness rather than Nonconformist - not iconoclasm. Seems to be difficult to find in UK parish churches though - does anyone have any examples? Lady chapels/side chapels count.
I suppose it depends what you call plain. What about this ? A wonderfully light and airy space.
That is lovely - not massively dissimilar to Northampton RC Cathedral (not the best picture, sorry).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Yes, not hugely different, although a little plainer than the cathedral. But still those high ceilings and white walls and lack of clutter. It's St Martin, Roath, Cardiff (CinW), by the way.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Uncluttered is preferable for me. Mind, I don't think uncluttered means unadorned.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I've realised from this thread that what counts as a 'new' worship space for a Catholic or an Anglican/Episcopalian is probably quite ancient for a Christian from a younger denomination! The churches pictured in those links all look pretty old to me!
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Oh, I wasn't posting mine as 'new'- just as light and airy and uncluttered. Built c 1890, I think, bombed c1941, partially rebuilt (in a much plainer style) 1950s.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
I was just posting Northampton RC Cathedral as an example as what I like - it was first built in 1864. Given having to wait until 1850 for the Catholic hierarchy in the UK to be restored, many RC churches here are Victorian or younger, so not particularly old. I see more modern Catholic buildings than I do Anglican.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
You might want to look at the work Quinlan Terry did at Brentwood RC Cathedral - certainly a much more inspiring place than God's wigwam in Liverpool.
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Quam Dilecta
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# 12541
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Posted
As an architect who has designed several churches for the Roman Rite, Stonespring's questions have a familiar ring. They cover many issues which invariably arise during the the planning of a new church. My observations on the altar and tabernacle, for what they are worth, follow. A discussion of the remaining issues would turn into a rather lengthy essay.
The designers of post-conciliar churches have generally sought a feeling of closeness to the altar. I remember being quite proud of the plan for a church seating 1200 people in which the most distant pews were no more than 80 feet from the altar. This was achieved in a quite traditional-looking building by providing transepts nearly as long as the nave. Sound amplification is necessary for speech to be heard clearly everywhere.
A century ago, when my own parish church was built, the designer's goal was a sense of mystery and awe. The high altar is 60 feet from the nearest pew in the nave, and the predella is elevated five feet above the nave floor. This elevation and the narrowness of both chancel and nave allow unamplified sound to reach the rear of the church. Not surprisingly, a church thus arranged works best when Mass is celebrated ad orientem and with fairly traditional ceremonial.
The large church mentioned above was provided with a separate Chapel of Reservation. Even though a large area of clear glazing was provided to make the tabernacle visible from the nave, the tabernacle has recently been moved from the chapel to a central location behind the altar. In a large church, where there can be a considerable distance between the altar and the tabernacle, this arrangement can seem quite dignified, but in a small chancel, the awkwardness which Stonespring mentions is unavoidable.
The closest I have come to reconciling these conflicting requirements is in a renovated church, where an apsidal chapel, enclosed by an open screen and a central doorway, is located directly beyond the altar. During Mass, the doors can be closed, temporarily concealing the tabernacle and focusing attention on the altar; at other times, the gate can stand open, making the tabernacle fully visible from the nave.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
You might want to look at the work Quinlan Terry did at Brentwood RC Cathedral - certainly a much more inspiring place than God's wigwam in Liverpool.
I actually prefer Liverpool RC cathedral to that - at least it has some originality. Brentwood cathedral just looks like a higher-class town hall to me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
<continuing tangent>
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
49 dongs rang out from my pad today. There will be 89 on Monday. It's a to me previously unknown and quaint local custom to conclude a funeral with one dong for each of the years of the deceased's life. A neophyte death I guess only warrants none? ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) I won't necessarily change it but am not entirely impressed. <snip>
The tolling bell should be preceded by nine for a man, 6 for a woman or 3 for a child, so a child would be tolled as groups of three, with the age, or not, following the threes.
It's not just in Dorothy L Sayers and Betjeman, but also in the Village School/Thrush Green books, and I remember counting bells as a child, growing up in villages when the tolling would almost certainly tell you who it was. You hear the bells go, and the first group tell you man, woman or child, then you hear how old - and as it goes past certain numbers you breathe with relief.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've often wondered what the ideal setting for an organic church would be. Proponents like Frank Viola tend to assume a house, but there are problematic cultural issues with meeting in someone's home.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've often wondered what the ideal setting for an organic church would be. Proponents like Frank Viola tend to assume a house, but there are problematic cultural issues with meeting in someone's home.
Especially in the Independent Catholic house churches I have been to. They kind of become pet projects of the bishop/pastor/homeowner to "collect" whatever s/he can get from clerical supply stores and eBay, and when you have a Mass with 8 priests and 2 laypeople in someone's living room, with the kitchen and bathroom viewable through a door and pets visible (or just audible) in the house, something just doesn't feel right.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Independent Catholic house churches? How interesting. Are they breakaway groups?
I was reading somewhere that in the developing world, RC priests are spread even more thinly than than are in Europe. The joy at welcoming one for worship, particularly if he can't come every week, must surely overcome any reservations about the architecture or the general environment in which the mass has to take place.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... when you have a Mass with 8 priests and 2 laypeople in someone's living room, with the kitchen and bathroom viewable through a door and pets visible (or just audible) in the house, something just doesn't feel right.
It's a good thing you weren't a Catholic in C16-18 Britain or Ireland then. From what one can gather from cherished myth, apart from a few embassy chapels in London, that was all you ever got. Indeed, in Ireland you might have had attend Mass on some bleak open hillside in the rain.
Nor do I think there would have been the privilege of being served by 8 priests. More likely one who in some years was at risk of having his head cut off if caught, and who even in good times had to keep his head down.
Like Svitlana, I too am a bit puzzled by the reference to 'Independent Catholic house church'. That sounds schismatic to me.
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
The term "Independent Catholic" means schismatic. Lots of people who enjoy dressing up in vestments and collecting lines of apostolic succession from anyone willing to sub-conditionally consecrate them bishop one more time. Some of these bishops have actual congregations. Some actually are competent at ministry. But quite a few do not and are not.
The early Christisn church under Roman persecution met in houses. I'm sure there are plenty of illegal Catholic house churches in China today. But the house churches I am talking about are not persecuted.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've often wondered what the ideal setting for an organic church would be. Proponents like Frank Viola tend to assume a house, but there are problematic cultural issues with meeting in someone's home.
Isn't the whole point that an organic church can - should - meet wherever people are already gathering? Talking of Mr Viola, one of his books goes into admirable detail about what he thinks you need to bear in mind if you're hosting a church in your home. I've not read it for a while but it really is impressively practical and detailed!
What do you see as the cultural issues of meeting in a home, by the way? Do you have any thoughts on what would make a good layout for the room where a church meets, if that room is in someone's home?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Possibly there's a cultural issue with someone's home belonging to that person and not the group, and if the church wants a very egalitarian leadership structure then that gets in the way. It's the cultural norm to defer to the person whose home it is, if you are their guest. And it's much better to have one building to meet in every week/whenever they meet rather than alternating between houses. Also, some people are just plain uncomfortable with their private sphere of the home being used for church. As an introvert who appreciates my own home being my space that I can recharge in, I would not want to hold a church service there and would rather meet in a space that is especially for church.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
The term "Independent Catholic" means schismatic. Lots of people who enjoy dressing up in vestments and collecting lines of apostolic succession from anyone willing to sub-conditionally consecrate them bishop one more time. Some of these bishops have actual congregations. Some actually are competent at ministry. But quite a few do not and are not.
Indeed. Dip into any of the standard works on or indeed perhaps by episcopi vagantes and you'll come across photos of Pontifical High Masses or consecrations of Patriarchs that are quite clearly happening in someone's sitting room in Eastbourne.
[ 11. December 2013, 09:10: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Isn't the whole point that an organic church can - should - meet wherever people are already gathering? Talking of Mr Viola, one of his books goes into admirable detail about what he thinks you need to bear in mind if you're hosting a church in your home. I've not read it for a while but it really is impressively practical and detailed!
What do you see as the cultural issues of meeting in a home, by the way? Do you have any thoughts on what would make a good layout for the room where a church meets, if that room is in someone's home?
Which of Viola's books are you referring to, BTW? Is it 'Finding Organic Church'? I hope to read that at some point.
Jade Constable highlights some of the challenges of meeting in homes. In British culture, people aren't particularly used to 'gathering' in each others' homes. There's a passion for privacy, and I believe that's actually increased in recent decades.
Quite a few people are also embarrassed about their homes and reluctant to open them up to visitors. I think there's a class problem here; if the church group were socially mixed, would the poorer or simply more disorganised members really feel comfortable opening up their homes, knowing how some of the other members live? On the other hand, as Jade implies, if meetings are always held in the nicest homes, this may give the owners of those homes a subtle power advantage. I read about this somewhere in relation to house churches in Brazil.
Moreover, we tend to assume that such gatherings are going to occur in 'Christian homes', but this isn't necessarily the case. Many British churchgoers live in homes where the other inhabitants aren't practising Christians, maybe not Christians at all. But British homes are often small, and other family members could resent the intrusion on their space. Walls are often thin. The result could be awkwardness and tension.
Does Viola address any of these concerns? Every culture would have to address them in a slightly different way, at the earliest opportunity. To me the ideal would be for the gathered group to love each other deeply, support each other and to go with the flow regardless of dogs, babies, piles of old smelly newspapers in the corner, naked light bulbs, noisy neighbours and a recovering junkie of no fixed address testifying boldly in a lawyer's expensive dining room.... The ideal would be for members, introverts and extroverts alike, to become so comfortable together that they could help with de-cluttering, decorating, cleaning and fixing things in someone's home prior to a meeting, if help were needed. But getting to that point would be HARD. That's why I'm hesitant! But where there's a will, there's a way....
The texts I've read about contemporary or historical house churches and cell groups haven't gone into much detail regarding setting. Further study would surely highlight some interesting practices and fruitful principles.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Which of Viola's books are you referring to, BTW? Is it 'Finding Organic Church'? I hope to read that at some point.
That's the one. There's a section starting on page 194 where he goes into lots of practical details about having a church meet each week in your house. He covers various issues around eating together (this is a must, Viola says; a tremendous way of building community), house rules (these should be set by the host(s), he says), time-keeping, how to encourage a sense of openness to each other and to God, how you might handle differing incomes and expectations (especially regarding food). It's very comprehensive, ISTM.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Jade Constable highlights some of the challenges of meeting in homes. In British culture, people aren't particularly used to 'gathering' in each others' homes. There's a passion for privacy, and I believe that's actually increased in recent decades.
Big cultural thing here, although it is fading with time. In traditional English working class society men did not typically entertain their friends in their homes. That was women's space. They met (and to some extent still meet) in pubs and clubs (or even churches sometimes).
I once heard a fascinating sermon given by an Arab minister. He said that when he had first arrived in Britain with his wife (before he was ordained they were both working for some company or other) he had been seriously upset by the lack of social contact with his British workmates and neighbours. His wife had very quickly got into a round of visiting and tea-drinking with other women from which he felt excluded, but he didn't see much of the men. And it took him over a year to realise that the Friday night visits to the pub after work were where the men got to know each other.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If it's the 'organic' church thing, meeting in living rooms or hired halls etc then it's a case of adapting what you're doing to the format of the meetings ...
Same as it is with a function room for any other kind of gathering.
Interestingly, the earliest examples of 'house-churches' from the Roman period - and the evidence is sketchy - is that those villas which apparently had a room set aside for church services had a slight apse or possibly an altar area at one end - showing that the eucharist was central at that early date ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
With the organic thing, of course, it's a question of working with the space available. But then, those churches which use the buildings that belong to other churches have to do that - Orthodox congregations which use Anglican buildings, for instance, don't have a great deal of difficulty - even though they find the pews a bit of an impediment.
I conduct a few poetry and open-mic/spoken word sessions in pubs and it's a case of arranging the furniture in the function rooms accordingly. Either all sat around a grouping of tables when we're critiquing stuff of else a cafe-style when it's the open mic.
For the kind of gatherings that SCK has in mind it'd be a similar set up I'm imagine.
I used to belong to a Baptist church which met in a hired room in a primary school and it was a bit of a faff setting up but a few banners and T-lights/candles could make it feel the part at times.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I used to run a housegroup in my house once ... it went quite well for a while. People seemed to like it.
I can't remember us paying that much attention to layout and so on provided there were places for people to sit and some tea/coffee and so on that was all there was to it.
I find it hard to understand how and why people can write books about this sort of thing. What is there to say?
I used to have a bunch of people meeting at my house. Sometimes we'd study the Bible, sometimes we'd pray sometimes we'd play games ...
So what? Plenty of house-groups operate that way.
Why is all this such a big deal?
These things are what they are. Why have a blinkin' industry of books and conferences around them?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thinking about it ... I don't know about independent, schismatic Catholic groups, but it strikes me that Catholic worship in general can quite easily happen in homes and other non-purpose built for religious purposes type venues.
The RC lectio-divina group I know meets in the priest's house and that's a very pleasant setting. It's all painted white and very plain but light and airy. People sit around a long table with a white table cloth and they lay out their knick-knacks - a few postcards of cathedrals (Anglican ones) for some reason and the odd bit of tat to provide some focus and atmosphere - and then they get on with it. They have lovely soup and sandwiches afterwards.
There's a 'grotto' in the back yard with blue madonna in it to give things that extra RC flavour.
But other than that, it's similar to how any informal study/worship set up would be for a Protestant housegroup or small group meeting.
The obvious point, of course, is that if we were looking for a 'new' space for worship than the shape/format that this would take is bound to be determined by what we want to do with it and how we envisage worship and meetings/services taking place.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I used to run a housegroup in my house once ... it went quite well for a while. People seemed to like it.
I can't remember us paying that much attention to layout and so on provided there were places for people to sit and some tea/coffee and so on that was all there was to it.
I find it hard to understand how and why people can write books about this sort of thing. What is there to say?
I used to have a bunch of people meeting at my house. Sometimes we'd study the Bible, sometimes we'd pray sometimes we'd play games ...
So what? Plenty of house-groups operate that way.
Why is all this such a big deal?
These things are what they are. Why have a blinkin' industry of books and conferences around them?
Perhaps because not everyone's had the same experience as you? Perhaps some people want to develop a theology to match and sharpen up their practice?
Not every Christian is knowledgeable about small groups. I know a well-attended suburban Methodist church where there are none - despite the heritage of class meetings. Moreover, in my earlier post I was focusing on the small group as church, not on small groups as a subset of church. The former is certainly a novel idea for many Christians, at least in the UK, so I see no reason at all why there shouldn't be material about it.
IMO the challenge of developing small group church as a desirable 'new worship space' in modern Britain, particularly in deprived and/or socially and culturally diverse settings, certainly deserves a book. I can see it starting life as a PhD thesis. I think South Coast Kevin should write it!
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, I agree there should be a book or thesis about that, but with the best will in the world, I don't think SCK should write it.
I think you should.
You're better placed than he is because that's the environment you live in.
I don't think he does.
My point about the 'industry' around books/conferences and so on re-envisioning church and so on was aimed at bourgeois middle-class types - in which I include myself.
There'd be no point in writing a book about small groups in that kind of demographic and context because they happen already. They're the Christian equivalent of the Tupperware party (as was) or the Anne Summers one as is ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
IMO the challenge of developing small group church as a desirable 'new worship space' in modern Britain, particularly in deprived and/or socially and culturally diverse settings, certainly deserves a book. I can see it starting life as a PhD thesis. I think South Coast Kevin should write it!
Well, I do have a Masters dissertation to write next year... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I already have a couple of other ideas, though, and I think Gamaliel is right; I don't think my life experience so far has equipped me to write a such a thesis or book with any real authority.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
Actually, I did think of adding a sentence to the effect that there's little need for more books about middle class housegroups, so fair enough! But any exploration of the organic church experience in the pluralistic British context would have to refer to the middle class aspect, since that's probably the most normative environment at the moment.
I'd find it very interesting to write about organic church in a pluralistic British setting. But SCK's thinking about organic church is more developed thanks to the workings of his own church. My main experience of small group church (as opposed to small groups within a church) has been in worshipping with a fellowship at a residential home.
South Coast Kevin
Has your church, which already works in quite a distinctive way, ever considered transitioning to a fully organic church model? If not, why not? Is it the notion of worshipping in homes that has put everyone off, or are there other issues?
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
South Coast Kevin
Has your church, which already works in quite a distinctive way, ever considered transitioning to a fully organic church model? If not, why not? Is it the notion of worshipping in homes that has put everyone off, or are there other issues?
Considered and rejected it, at least in the full-on Neil Cole / Frank Viola etc sense of organic church. I've spoken with our senior pastor and a couple of the other leaders and they don't really buy into the purely small group-based, unplanned meetings approach.
We do place a strong emphasis on house groups (indeed the Sunday meetings are often introduced as 'just the place where all the house groups gather together') so meeting and worshipping in people's homes isn't the problem. I suppose the leadership team agree with most of the Christian world that church meetings should have a clear structure and plan set out in advance!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Well, that's a lot easier to manage, of course ...
I think there's wisdom in their approach. Which isn't to say that a different one wouldn't be called for elsewhere.
I don't know if any of you can remember the move to 'deconstruct' church that came about in some quarters of the independent charismatic evangelical scene back in the mid/late 90s?
At the same time there was a move towards a 'cell' model, although in rather more prescriptive way than the model that SCK envisages.
Well, I had friends involved with each of those.
In the first instance the churches involved effectively 'deconstructed' themselves out of existence and either fizzled out or ended up with people moving elsewhere because the whole thing had become completely amorphous to the extent that they weren't actually meeting together at all (I kid you not ...).
In the second instance the 'cell' structure became just that. People felt trapped and imprisoned by it.
My own view these days - and yes, I'm sorry, I can only go on my own experience - is that these things are best developed out of necessity.
So, for instance, if SCK's Vineyard church ain't bust there's no point in trying to fix it, reconfigure it - unless there were a pressing need of some kind to do so.
Things would undoubtedly be a lot different where SvitlanaV2 is and perhaps there are grounds there for the genuinely innovative and ground-breaking.
What form this would or could take, I have no idea.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fr Weber
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
One word: Sanctinasium.
I have a friend who refers to that style as "Romatorium".
Unfair, because RCs are far from the only people building such churches...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... I don't know if any of you can remember the move to 'deconstruct' church that came about in some quarters of the independent charismatic evangelical scene back in the mid/late 90s?
At the same time there was a move towards a 'cell' model, although in rather more prescriptive way than the model that SCK envisages.
...
I can cap that. I encountered two examples as far back as the early '70s. I knew two people who were thrown out of one of those examples, ostensibly for not attending one Sunday. It was clear to me that the real reason was that the leader suspected - correctly as it happened - that they weren't totally convinced of his infallibility.
I remain to this day very wary of that whole 'tendency' using the word in the same sense as in 'Militant Tendency'.
Every time I encounter anybody advocate similar ideas 'seen that' or 'there is no new thing under the sun'.
[ 12. December 2013, 21:27: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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magnum mysterium
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
49 dongs rang out from my pad today. There will be 89 on Monday. It's a to me previously unknown and quaint local custom to conclude a funeral with one dong for each of the years of the deceased's life. A neophyte death I guess only warrants none? I won't necessarily change it but am not entirely impressed.
[ETA ... but I further a digression, by the way]
Not a quaint local custom - you obviously need to read up your Dorothy Sayers Nine Tailors!!!
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Independent Catholic house churches? How interesting. Are they breakaway groups?
*snip*
There have been several in Ottawa over the years- the two I know of are no longer functional. Not having attended any of their services, I can't tell you much about them other than, in one case, it was a de-licensed (particulars not known to me) RC priest who had set up on his own in a Catholic Workerish establishment. I see from some googling that there are two in the suburbs and there is a francophone independent catholic church in Hull, on the other side of the river.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Do these places have a deliberate commitment to a house church style, or is it just that they can't afford anything grander? The impression that I've got from reading about many 'classic' episcopi vagantes is that they'd have loved to have a great big full on cathedral, but just found themselves obliged by circumstance to make do with an "Oratory of the Sacred Heart, Our Lady of Walsingham, and St Willibrord" which was actually the cupboard under the stairs with a bit of tat draped round the gas meter.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Do these places have a deliberate commitment to a house church style, or is it just that they can't afford anything grander? The impression that I've got from reading about many 'classic' episcopi vagantes is that they'd have loved to have a great big full on cathedral, but just found themselves obliged by circumstance to make do with an "Oratory of the Sacred Heart, Our Lady of Walsingham, and St Willibrord" which was actually the cupboard under the stairs with a bit of tat draped round the gas meter.
I have not met many episcopi vagantes that do not have some dream in their head of a Cathedral (or at least parish church) that they would have built if there was enough money. Sometimes the architecture would be over-the-top traditional, other times it would be the "perfect" expression of the spirit of Vatican III ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . There are a few who are so out-of-the-box in their thinking that they don't really want to build a physical building for their idea of Church - but they seem to be in the minority.
There also is a big difference between the priests who leave major denominations to minister under an episcopus vagans (or be consecrated by one (and two others if they can be found)) and those lay people who are exposed to the Independent Catholic movement and then feel a calling to ordained ministry. The latter are often a bit more grandiose, while the former often want little to do with the administrative functions of a bishop and want to get away from the formality and rules they had in the denominations they left. If the priests from other denominations get consecrated bishop, it is often because they want to have their own little parish church where they can be left alone and know that no one can boss them around because they can now form their own independent church if they want to.
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