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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Poetry and evangelicalism
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
People seem to be getting touchy and defensive when I suggest that evangelicalism and evangelical culture isn't necessarily conducive for those with a more 'poetic' or 'philosophical' bent.
I don't know why this should be.
Plenty of writers/artists react against a Catholic background so I don't see why it should be so shocking to suggest that others do to a more evangelical one.
It suggests a certain unease, tension and lack of confidence in one's own theological position to me.
All that said, I'd like to explore the relationship between evangelicalism (rather than Protestantism in particular) and the arts.
Evangelicalism does produce art. It produces some good art. It produces interesting forms of folk-art at times - not so much visually but in terms of music and word-play I'd suggest.
What it doesn't seem to do - very often - is produce 'great' art.
Now, we could get into what constitutes 'great' art and whether the whole concept is elitist or dominated by a liberal sensibility etc etc ... and yes, I'd accept that this was true.
But when Mudfrog, for instance, tells us that some contemporary SA song lyrics contain 'stunningly poetic' lines and we look them up and find nothing more impressive than a set of conventional and serviceable lyrics that fit a particular mould - then I begin to wonder what criteria is being deployed ...
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for popular culture and so on. I enjoy poetry-slams and rants as much as I enjoy 'page poetry' as the performance lot call it.
There's room for all of it. There's room for Bach sonatas and there's room for the Kings Singers with renditions of contemporary SA worship songs and hymns.
Yet I remain convinced that more discursive and reflective thinkers are going to struggle in most forms of evangelicalism.
The real creativity within evangelicalism - and probably elsewhere - happens at the margins.
[ 02. April 2014, 19:26: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
What counts as evangelicalism here? Is Marilynne Robinson evangelical?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
Hmmm. I'm a bit too postmodern to be entirely at home with grand value judgments. I think value depends to a large extent on what the reader or listener is looking for. But I agree with what you say towards the end of your post.
I'm currently exploring religious faith in contemporary prose fiction (rather than poetry), and it's true that Christianity in general and evangelicalism in particular are treated with both fascination and skepticism by authors. Plenty of scholars have said as much. But those very few texts that do come from (just?) within rather than outside an evangelical standpoint do tell stories that are worth being told. And the telling of those stories isn't necessarily worse than the telling of more critical stories.
I suspect that when it comes to contemporary novels and short stories authors are controlled by readers' and publishers' expectations to a greater extent than is the case in poetry. IOW, people are more willing to exert themselves to read a 'difficult' poem than they are to read a difficult novel. Because the readership for poetry is smaller and more discerning, the popular, be that in relation to religion or anything else, is likely to have less of a place. Poetry slams are an attempt to overcome that division, but I do think it's true on the whole. You'll probably disagree, though.
[ 21. December 2013, 12:32: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've heard of 'Gilead' but not read it.
Not sure whether she counts as evangelical or not. The term is pretty elastic as we always find on these boards.
For the purposes of this discussion, I'd like to set some boundaries to the definition.
I'm thinking post-Great Awakening here, post-mid 18th century when, it seems to me, the hallmarks of what is now generally regarded as evangelicalism (small e rather than Big E) were beginning to take shape.
I'm not thinking of:
Isaac Watts (pre-evangelical and heretical).
Milton (pre-evangelical and Binitarian - and a tremendous poet).
Bunyan (pre-evangelical but closer to it) - but I have a high regard for him (apart from his Talibanesque Fifth Monarchist tendencies) and his work.
Herbert, Donne and the other Metaphysicals who, it seems to me, are broader than current definitions of evangelicalism ... although I can see some 'evangelical' tendencies and premonitions (as it were) in their work. I rate and value both highly.
Cowper would fit into my definition.
People like Coleridge (unitarian background I think, but with some evangelical influences), the Brontes, Elizabeth Barrett Browning and Christina Rossetti would qualify ... at least in part.
Most of these eschewed evangelicalism or evolved into something different.
Hopkins has been mentioned but the bulk of his work was written after his conversion to Catholicism.
There are many noted Quaker poets - both in the 19th century and among contemporary poets and they're fascinating ... I'm not sure they'd class as 'evangelical' in the accepted sense.
So I suppose my question is:
Why no evangelical Auden or Eliot?
Why no evangelical Bertrand Russell?
(I'm thinking philosophers as well as poets)
It seems to me that when evangelicals want to cite or appropriate great writers or thinkers from the Christian tradition they generally have to step outside their own fold - C S Lewis, Solzhenitsyn, Dostoyevsky ...
That's not to disparage the creativity or talent that is the hall-mark of most evangelical congregations I know. Far from it.
All I'm suggesting is that the clearly defined lines and boundaries may make it more difficult for more 'discursive' thinkers.
I'd suggest that this isn't exclusively an evangelical failing (if failing it is). Note how Tavener rubbed some of the more conservative Orthodox up the wrong way when he started to adopt a broader and more 'inclusive' approach to spirituality ... exploring the mystical traditions within Sufi Islam and so on and using them in his work.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, I don't necessarily disagree, SvitlanaV2 and I'm aware of the tensions in my own position.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gamaliel
Hmmm. I'm a bit too postmodern to be entirely at home with grand value judgments. I think value depends to a large extent on what the reader or listener is looking for.
I'm pretty postmodern when it comes to these things too.
Hence my comments about poetry-slams and so on alongside more 'literary' poetry in the conventional sense.
The market for poetry is certainly more limited than it is for novels. I'm not sure, though, whether we can compare approaches to 'difficult' poetry and 'difficult' novels, though ...
From what poets and other authors have told me in recent years, the gap is narrowing and the run-lengths and life-expectancy/shelf-life for most 'literary' novels is becoming closer to what it always has been for contemporary poetry.
I've heard that some 'literary' novelists reckon not to sell a great many more copies than they do at the book launch ... something poets have long since accepted as the norm.
There are some interesting things going on, though, in terms of independent publishers and smaller presses - although that whole scene is in a state of flux. The formerly despised self-publishing route is also becoming more respectable.
But, no, I don't disagree with the broad thrust of what you are saying here.
To use an example I've already cited. I would contend that Mudfrog's Kings Singers rendition of contemporary SA songs is perfectly valid, competent and of a reasonable standard and quality.
What I wouldn't say was that it achieved the 'stunning' standards he claims for it.
But then, I'd say that of contemporary Christian music in general.
It depends on where you draw the lines and what you use as a benchmark. Given the choice between Mudfrog's Kings Singers SA songs album and a Hillsong album I know which one I'd choose ...
Again, this isn't restricted to popular evangelicalism. Take 'The Priests' - that trio of Irish Catholic priest songsters who achieved brief fame and album sales a few years ago.
The material they performed was largely 'classical' but the style, packaging and delivery was highly populist. There's nothing wrong with that - there's a place for it ... but no-one is claiming that it's the highest form of art there is.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Please define 'evangelical'.
And also please define 'poetry'.
Is there an objective standard by which we can judge whether a poem is good or not? And if there is, who has established that standard and why?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There's probably no more of an objective standard for judging poetry as there is for judging who is or who isn't an evangelical ...
The point I'm getting at derives from a comment that intrigued me in Andrew Walker's 'Restoring The Kingdom' - his insightful 1980s study of the restorationist 'new church' movement in the UK.
As a sociologist, Walker noted that the new churches tended to attract more 'directive' thinkers than 'discursive' ones - consequently, there were more technicians, engineers, nurses and others in 'get-things-done' type jobs than there were more reflective 'poetic' or 'philosophical' types.
I think this held water and still does.
That doesn't mean that there aren't 'directive' thinkers, scientists, medics etc - who don't appreciate or write poetry ... there's a growing interest in the use of poetry in therapy, for instance ... and I know some medics who write very good poetry.
As for defining 'evangelicalism' and defining 'poetry' and identifying objective standards for assessing each ... I could give plenty of links and examples but I'm making a fairly general point here. Because there are always exceptions to any rule.
I'm fairly post-modern on these issues, like SvitlanaV2 and would agree with her that the needs of the reader/user are what determines the value to a great extent.
Consequently, I would suggest, Mudfrog finds the contemporary SA hymn lyrics 'stunningly poetic' because they happen to accord with his world-view and spirituality.
They don't accord quite so closely with mine, consequently, I'm predisposed to find them less 'stunning' than he does.
I hasten to add that I don't think they are 'bad' as hymn lyrics go and they are a lot better than other examples of the genre we could cite ... but that would be to stray into Dead Horses territory ...
My own view is that poetry doesn't have to inaccessible or 'difficult' - indeed, Modernism hasn't done us any great favours in that respect. There were plenty of popular but highly skilled poets around during the early part of the 20th century, for instance - who deserve more credit than they've subsequently received.
The First World War and Modernism changed everything.
Be all that as it may, and whatever criteria we use, can we really say that the following is 'stunningly poetic'?
http://www.chandos.net/pdf/SPS%20244.pdf
Competent as song lyrics, yes, but rather sentimental, full of fairly arch poetic contractions - 'ev'ry ... T'ward ... Calv'ry ... wand'ring ... pluck'd ... heav'n ... e'en ...'
And cod archaisms such as 'noontide.'
If I sent poems off to poetry magazines peppered with archaisms and contractions (and yes, I can see they're there to fit the rhythm but even so) then I'd get even more rejection slips than I get now ...
It all depends, of course.
C S Lewis's poetry is almost universally regarded as execrable. His prose is universally admired.
The issue, though, isn't so much whether evangelical poetry is good, bad or indifferent as to whether more discursive or 'poetic' and 'philosophical' minds and temperaments can thrive as well as those of a more 'directive' and activist bent ... which is, I submit, the prevailing paradigm within those settings.
It won't be the only paradigm but it does strike the dominant note.
At it's best, there is a kind of demotic language and expression within evangelicalism that has a broad appeal - and not necessarily at the expense of sense or a dumbing down ...
But more activist forms of belief do tend to lend themselves to a more sloganeering style.
That's all I'm saying.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, you live and learn ...
I hadn't realised Piper wrote poetry.
Having read some now, I wished he didn't ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Does evangelicalism lend itself particularly well to creativity? I tend to find either an anti-intellectual attitude (sometimes quite subtle), or a more Reformed intellectual attitude that is more rigid and less inclined to creativity. I think being down to earth is prized more than anything out of the ordinary.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Poetry and song-writing aren't the same thing. A lot of competent poetry doesn't sing well. Most song lyrics, whether secular or religious, are pretty dire on the printed page - even songs that work well as songs. You only need to read a few CD covers to realise how this is almost universal. So I don't think it's fair, or even a reasonable test, to ask whether either hymns or choruses are decent poetry or not. It's the wrong criterion.
There are a few hymns and choruses that work well as such, and are both verbally well written and inspiring, even though they might be fairly weak as poetry. There are all too many hymns and choruses that aren't very good even as hymns or choruses. Most of us carry round with us a mental list of ones we feel particularly strongly about.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, you live and learn ...
I hadn't realised Piper wrote poetry.
Having read some now, I wished he didn't ...
Alvin Plantinga is an evangelical and an extremely well respected philosopher.
He's not as famous as Bertrand Russell, but people from minority religious points of view are rarely as famous in intellectual circles as those advocating more secular views, given the state of the academy at the moment IME. Alvin Plantinga
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This ...
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Does evangelicalism lend itself particularly well to creativity? I tend to find either an anti-intellectual attitude (sometimes quite subtle), or a more Reformed intellectual attitude that is more rigid and less inclined to creativity. I think being down to earth is prized more than anything out of the ordinary.
I think this pretty much nails it.
That said, I think there is a lot of creativity within evangelical circles ... particularly charismatic evangelical circles and that forms part of the attraction ... it's a lot down to self-expression.
I'm not knocking that. I learned how to 'deliver' lines and to speak in public in evangelical circles.
Although my own creativity, I would suggest, began to develop in proportion to my gradual disengagement from full-on evangelical-charismatic religion.
@Enoch - yes, you're right about the difference between song lyrics and poetry. Read Bob Dylan's lyrics on the page and you wonder what the fuss is all about ...
@Leprechaun ... interesting link. I'd not heard of this guy. Thanks.
Meanwhile, those Piper poems made me feel ill. There was some craft there, certainly, but all he was doing was echoing/repeating Bible stories and passages in poetic form. There was no irony, no imagination ... I couldn't see the point at all. One might as well sit down and simply read the biblical texts.
Sure, we post-moderns don't like certainties slapped on with a trowel ... and other than the more mystical stuff, religious poetry doesn't tend to appeal these days ...
But there's good religious poetry (Donne) and there's bad religious poetry (Piper).
If anything is likely to send me running towards one or other of the alternative Christian traditions it'd be reading stuff like that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The creativity that is apparent in evangelical and evangelical charismatic circles tends to follow a pragmatic pattern ... ie. quirky or humorous ways of presenting aspects of the Gospel.
It's very rarely 'ars semper ars'. It has to spell things out.
That's not to say it's all bad ... there are some good examples within the somewhat limited frame of reference.
Perhaps, though, the issue is more one of conservativism in general ... because it doesn't only apply to evangelicalism. I've mentioned Tavener's run-in with some of his fellow Orthodox over some of his later works, for instance.
I'm sure we can find RC examples of the same tendency, too.
But I agree with Jade Constable that there can be both a very subtle form of anti-intellectualism in some evangelical circles (which makes a virtue of its own ignorance) or else a very dry and often arid and icy intellectual of a more Reformed kind ... which isn't to write everything off that comes from that stable ... far from it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
As Leonard Cohen said (my transcription):
"Poetry comes from a place that no-one commands and no-one conquers. If I knew where the good songs come from, I'd go there more often." (speech to Principe of Asturias, Oct 2011)
In my opinion, the confidence of where the poetry of life and death comes from,
that evangelicals have in their certainty, means that they are persuaded that they have answers, or rather believe they have the answers. This cannot be. Because it is not possible. And if it is possible, then it offends rationality and feelings both. Because our nature, our freewill - God requires our lack of certainty. Without lack of certainty, there is no faith, only dogma.
Poetry comes from somewhere else, other than this certainty.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
People seem to be getting touchy and defensive when I suggest that evangelicalism and evangelical culture isn't necessarily conducive for those with a more 'poetic' or 'philosophical' bent.
...
In my experience, some people will laugh when told what they are can not be possible and others will get touchy and defensive.
Those who use stereotypes should expect to get both reactions.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
BTW, in my case, when I read your OP, I just laughed. When I first joined this board, I would have gotten defensive. But, I'm not a poet, just somebody who has used story telling and theatre in various guises over the years to fulfill the purpose the God wants me here for, be it illumination, succor, or merriment.
So maybe I don't fit the OP's definition of what poetry means and therefore allows the OP to be true, in its own limited way?
[ 21. December 2013, 18:57: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.
So while great art can refer to and be about a particular orthodoxy, it will always step outside that orthodoxy at some point, be critical of that orthodoxy and be open to criticism from that orthodoxy.
It's not a thing that is peculiar to evangelicalism (though it's something I've encountered, and in turn, spoken out against), but is common to any dominant cultural expression. Writers and artists are poorly served by the church, but the feeling is, for the most part, entirely mutual. I serve the church poorly through my art, because my art is unorthodox and cannot be embraced wholeheartedly by the church.
I'm old enough now not to be worried about that, and I ought to remember more often to tell the youngsters not to be so concerned by it either.
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Forward the New Republic
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.
While emotionally I'm inclined to agree, I think I need more discussion of particulars before I accept that.
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... @Enoch - yes, you're right about the difference between song lyrics and poetry. Read Bob Dylan's lyrics on the page and you wonder what the fuss is all about ...
And on the airwaves IMHO, but I realise that's a personal view, that some Shipmates may regard as akin to blasphemy.
I've always thought he is vastly overrated, both as to his music and the alleged significance and originality of his thoughts. When in history have times not been changing?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.
While emotionally I'm inclined to agree, I think I need more discussion of particulars before I accept that.
It's very much about an emotional response... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Yes, it's a bit of sweeping statement, and I can't honestly say I've ever produced any 'great' art (though I'm particularly satisfied with the next book). But I know of the things that have moved me most, from music through sculpture and painting to fiction, the art has been in some way, controversial - and not in a silly, desire-to-shock sort of way, but disturbing, transcendent, spiritual, earthy. Not just counter-cultural, but supra-cultural.
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Forward the New Republic
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
OK. So, if we take the case of Mozart's Requiem... Is it transgressive of orthodoxy? Or is it not great art? And, in either case, how?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm not very familiar with Evangelical poetry, a bit more with Evangelical music (you can't avoid hearing that in Brazil )
What it is to me is that Evangelicalism by its very definition has an urge to spread a clear message. This doesn't go together well with my personal preference for more murky, ambiguous art.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
OK. So, if we take the case of Mozart's Requiem... Is it transgressive of orthodoxy? Or is it not great art? And, in either case, how?
There I was, thinking about what art I'd flag up as worthy of the title 'great'. Mozart's Requiem was first on the list, despite all the competing memories.
I genuinely don't know enough to sort out the fact from the fiction on the commissioning and writing of the Requiem - I'm sure one of the resident musicians will be able to help here - but I'm not just deeply moved by the music, I'm deeply disquieted by it. It's a stunning, powerful piece, almost terrifyingly so. That it was unfinished simply adds to my disquiet.
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Forward the New Republic
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
So it's disquieting. But in what way does it not arise out of an orthodox world view?
On the assumption that an art form more directly dependent on verbal formulation may be easier to discuss: Sophocles' Antigone. Transgressive? Orthodox? I'm inclined to say both...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would contend that Mudfrog's Kings Singers rendition of contemporary SA songs is perfectly valid, competent and of a reasonable standard and quality.
What I wouldn't say was that it achieved the 'stunning' standards he claims for it.
But then, I'd say that of contemporary Christian music in general.
It depends on where you draw the lines and what you use as a benchmark. Given the choice between Mudfrog's Kings Singers SA songs album and a Hillsong album I know which one I'd choose ...
But the point is that these judgments are subjective. What counts as 'stunning' poetry for you may not be stunning to someone else. When you say that evangelical poetry isn't 'great' or 'stunning' you're buying into fairly modernist academic judgments as to what counts as greatness. You can do so if you wish (and boundaries serve their purpose) but let's be clear that this is what you're doing.
As for evangelical anti-intellectualism, that strikes me as something different. You don't have to be an intellectual to write poetry. Perhaps its only in fairly recent western culture that poetry has been considered an intellectual pursuit. Some of the popular poets have broken through and achieved respect as well as a following, but occasionally they still complain about barriers and snobbishness, don't they?
BTW, I particularly enjoyed reading what you had to say about the publishing and marketing of poetry and literary fiction. Very interesting.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, you live and learn ...
I hadn't realised Piper wrote poetry.
Having read some now, I wished he didn't ...
Yes. Not the icon of evangelicalism I would like.
But I would say Eugene Peterson writes poetically, and in a way that is truly "art". I'd add NT Wright at times.
Depending on how broadly you draw one's definition of evangelicalism, Anne Lamott and Kathleen Norris would qualify as "poetic" IMHO.
And I would argue your assumption that no contemporary praise music is poetic. I think part of the problem with the stereotypes of contemporary worship is that it's usually based on non-evangelicals listening to CCM on the radio and assuming that's what we sing in church. And I suppose, in some places, it is. But for the most part, what we sign in church is written not by solo artists but by worship leaders-- and is a very different genre than CCM. And some of that can be quite powerful & poetic in the same way that great preaching can be powerful and poetic-- because it's coming out of a particular community speaking in and with and thru them.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
As Leonard Cohen said (my transcription):
"Poetry comes from a place that no-one commands and no-one conquers. If I knew where the good songs come from, I'd go there more often." (speech to Principe of Asturias, Oct 2011)
In my opinion, the confidence of where the poetry of life and death comes from,
that evangelicals have in their certainty, means that they are persuaded that they have answers, or rather believe they have the answers. This cannot be. Because it is not possible. And if it is possible, then it offends rationality and feelings both. Because our nature, our freewill - God requires our lack of certainty. Without lack of certainty, there is no faith, only dogma.
Poetry comes from somewhere else, other than this certainty.
I would agree-- and very much like-- your definition of poetry. I would very much disagree (no surprise) with your depiction of evangelical "certainty"-- although I recognize it. There is certainly a strain of evangelicalism that's all about "power evangelism" and "power preaching" and "alpha leadership" that has that brazen unreflective certainty about it ( a bit of whistling in the dark, perhaps). But again, there are more poetic thoughtful writers-- people like Parker Palmer and Fredrick Buechner (would they consider themselves evangelical? I don't know. But they are much beloved in evangelical circles), as well as more obvious (but less poetic) evangelical writers like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren where their very appeal is the lack of certainty and the embrace of doubt and mystery.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok ... backing up a bit.
May I remind you all of the key points I'm trying to raise ... which isn't about how good, bad or indifferent evangelical art is ... and goodness knows, there's good, bad and indifferent art, music, poetry, fiction etc in all the Christian traditions ...
But rather about how it might be relatively awkward/difficult for those with a more 'poetic' or 'philosophical' bent - in the broad sense of those terms to fit into settings where certainty and sloganeering appears to be the order of the day.
And yes, you can see this in other traditions too. Several times now I've mentioned the example of the late, lamented John Tavener within Orthodoxy where he went from poster-boy to pariah as far as many of the Orthodox were concerned.
So I'm not necessarily singling evangelicalism out. I've made this clear several times.
Evangelicalism is the tradition I know best so I have to use it as an example.
I would agree with Cliffdweller that there can be a sense of mystery and the numinous within evangelical settings ... increasingly so, it seems to me ...
But I don't want to get drawn into Dead Horse discussions about Crappy Choruses and so on. I am fairly familiar with the mainstream worship-song fare within contemporary evangelicalism and it ain't all bad. I've never said it was.
I've also acknowledged that what I'm saying is broad-brush and yes, perhaps stereotypical in Og the Threadkiller's terms.
I've also said that there's a lot of creativity in evidence in evangelical and charismatic evangelical circles ... even though much of the mime, the dramatic sketches and the jokes may not be to my taste. I've seen some engaging stuff though ... and a lot of talent.
I also accept SvitlanaV2's point about subjectivity and I'd already acknowledged that. I'd acknowledged that my reactions to what Mudfrog regards as 'stunningly poetic' were bound to be more subdued than his for reasons other than whatever literary merit these lyrics might intrinsically possess.
I sometimes wonder whether some of you read what I write or what you think I'm writing ...
But all that said, by any generally accepted criteria - and I'm not talking high-falutin', high-brow lit crit criteria here - can we really, honestly say that those SA lyrics constitute great art of any kind?
I would say not. They are trite, conventional and sentimental. They are not particularly bad examples, though, there are much worse.
But 'stunningly poetic'?
'Sufficient for purpose', might be a more realistic assessment.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So it's disquieting. But in what way does it not arise out of an orthodox world view?
I don't know - from a traditional Catholic view, aren't we supposed to reach the end with assurance that we'll be welcomed into heaven? The Requiem fills me with dread that we won't, and there is naught but darkness.
quote:
On the assumption that an art form more directly dependent on verbal formulation may be easier to discuss: Sophocles' Antigone. Transgressive? Orthodox? I'm inclined to say both...
I'm afraid that Antigone is beyond my experience - I can do Shakespeare, though.
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Forward the New Republic
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would agree-- and very much like-- your definition of poetry. I would very much disagree (no surprise) with your depiction of evangelical "certainty"-- although I recognize it. There is certainly a strain of evangelicalism that's all about "power evangelism" and "power preaching" and "alpha leadership" that has that brazen unreflective certainty about it ( a bit of whistling in the dark, perhaps). But again, there are more poetic thoughtful writers-- people like Parker Palmer and Fredrick Buechner (would they consider themselves evangelical? I don't know. But they are much beloved in evangelical circles), as well as more obvious (but less poetic) evangelical writers like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren where their very appeal is the lack of certainty and the embrace of doubt and mystery.
It may be, and I think it is, that evangelical practice and theory differ in North America and Europe. I was exposed to the very certain American version in the 1970s, in Alberta, that most American of our provinces. And have seen and avoided Alpha recruitement. So I expect you are right. And I may be too narrow in my avoidant definition.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Is this art as defined within the boundaries of a religious act of worship?
If so, the boundary definitions of
art, boundaries, religious, act, worship and poetic
would preclude many people from being involved.
Sorry, I need to sit and read this thread a bit more carefully. I now work in a Christmas seasonal business and am just coming out of 6 weeks of a very very focused but enjoyable life.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I wasn't thinking of the use of art, poetry, philosophy or other more 'discursive' ways of thinking/expressing things in the context of religious services or worship in the OP.
Over on the thread where this one had its origins, Mudfrog seemed to restrict my mention of poetry to the service/meeting aspect. We don't recite poetry, we sing it, he wrote ...
As if poetry were something to be restricted to church services.
I would submit that this underlines the point I'm trying to make. A certain kind of evangelical mentality can only conceive of the arts in direct support of the proclamation of the Gospel. Yes, that can be part of it ... but it's not the whole story.
I remember a letter in a Pentecostal magazine once, not long after that magazine had adopted more glossy production values. It praised the magazine for running a particularly attractive landscape photograph on the cover, hoping that this photo would have made people want to pick it up and read it and so become aware of their need of salvation ...
Even as an earnest young charismatic it struck me as a very woodenly utilitarian viewpoint. The photo wasn't there for its own sake - as an impressive photograph - but as some kind of evangelistic tool.
That might illustrate the kind of point I'm trying to make.
It's a form of 'directive' thinking ... cause and effect.
Nice photo on cover = someone picks up magazine = someone reads magazine = someone is 'saved' ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I sometimes wonder whether some of you read what I write or what you think I'm writing ...
I must admit, I find your posting style a bit confusing. You do claim to take an even-handed approach, but for some reason the dominant vibe that comes across is one of certainty - although not of the evangelical type, obviously! But your posts keep things interesting, which is all good.
quote:
May I remind you all of the key points I'm trying to raise [...] about how it might be relatively awkward/difficult for those with a more 'poetic' or 'philosophical' bent - in the broad sense of those terms to fit into settings where certainty and sloganeering appears to be the order of the day.
Put like that, it's hard for anyone to argue against you. If originality in poetry and philosophy requires pushing boundaries and challenging conventions, then those who prioritise repeating a fixed narrative won't have anything new or interesting to say.
OTOH, unless evangelicalism is always lived in stasis it must encompass the idea of the spiritual life as a journey, which has to allow for the fact that even evangelicals have challenging times with faith, with their churches and with living. Paul couldn't pray away the thorn in his side, yet he was arguably the prototype of an evangelical! This could provide fruit for reflection.
On a sociological level I think the main issue is that historically evangelicals have tended to come from the lower strata of society, so they haven't had access to the kind of refined education that creates poets and philosophers. This may be changing, but nowadays there's hardly a wide readership in the UK for poetry and fiction that explores evangelicalism. I suspect that most contemporary writers who are evangelical Christians keep their literary identity more or less separate from their religious identity for professional reasons.
BTW, a few months ago I found an interesting American website that highlights literary and other artistic representations of (evangelical) Pentecostalism and charismaticism. Some of the writers listed will be non- or ex-evangelicals, but some may still consider themselves to be within the fold.
http://literarypentecostal.blogspot.co.uk/
You have to scroll down a bit for the section on fiction.
[ 21. December 2013, 23:17: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
OTOH, unless evangelicalism is always lived in stasis it must encompass the idea of the spiritual life as a journey, which has to allow for the fact that even evangelicals have challenging times with faith, with their churches and with living. Paul couldn't pray away the thorn in his side, yet he was arguably the prototype of an evangelical! This could provide fruit for reflection.
On a sociological level I think the main issue is that historically evangelicals have tended to come from the lower strata of society, so they haven't had access to the kind of refined education that creates poets and philosophers. This may be changing, but nowadays there's hardly a wide readership in the UK for poetry and fiction that explores evangelicalism. I suspect that most contemporary writers who are evangelical Christians keep their literary identity more or less separate from their religious identity for professional reasons.
spot on.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I agree, SvitlanaV2.
The prevailing academic/literary paradigm is, of course, geared towards uncertainty and ambiguity - so someone with a pretty fixed world-view - be it evangelical Protestant, conservatively Catholic or Orthodox - isn't going to gain a great deal of traction with the liberal arts establishment.
I accept that.
I also accept your comments about my posting style and tendencies and am aware of the tensions. But I can only speak as I find, as all the other posters here can and do ...
So there's a tension all ways round. And tension does tend to create good art ... so that's maybe not a bad thing ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.
So while great art can refer to and be about a particular orthodoxy, it will always step outside that orthodoxy at some point, be critical of that orthodoxy and be open to criticism from that orthodoxy.
It's not a thing that is peculiar to evangelicalism (though it's something I've encountered, and in turn, spoken out against), but is common to any dominant cultural expression. Writers and artists are poorly served by the church, but the feeling is, for the most part, entirely mutual. I serve the church poorly through my art, because my art is unorthodox and cannot be embraced wholeheartedly by the church.
I'm old enough now not to be worried about that, and I ought to remember more often to tell the youngsters not to be so concerned by it either.
I'm not sure that you're right, as I think there can be great classical art, and classical art tends to stay within certain formal boundaries and doesn't crash through them.
But certainly, I think many people today have rejected the 'totalizing discourses' which dominated the period up to 1914, when they tended to come crashing down.
Since then, art has generally been breaking down these historically dominant forms; or, if you like, it has been restless.
I think there can be great religious art, but it will probably be of the restless kind, not the classical kind. I think of G. M. Hopkins, who practically had to wrestle the English language to its knees, in order to develop a form which expressed his ideas.
But somebody like T. S. Eliot expresses a more classical bent, although he also broke many traditional forms, and used the fragments.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I agree with all of that ... however, one could argue that Eliot, for all his Anglo-Catholicism, also went beyond the limits of prevailing orthodoxy as he was quite influenced by Buddhist as well as Christian thought ...
But I agree with the broad thrust of what you've said.
I hasten to add, in relation to an earlier post, that I'm not claiming that 'tension' is necessarily creating 'great art' in my own case.
FWIW I don't think evangelicalism is anti-art per se ... although I think there is a strain of anti-intellectualism lurking below the surface. Back in the day I was always being reprimanded for what was taken to be an overly cerebral approach or for relying on my 'mind' to assess things rather than my 'spirit' and so on ...
All highly dualistic and dangerous if taken too far ...
Another point ... I'm not saying 'high art' = good, popular or 'folk art' = bad. Far from it.
For instance, the Cornish poet Charles Causley never really received the recognition he deserved from the London literary establishment whilst poets like Hughes and Heaney rated him highly.
There are lots of other examples.
On the demographic aspects ... yes, I agree with SvitlanaV2 that evangelicalism has tended to draw from an upper working-class/lower middle class demographic ... which inevitably means, I suppose, that its aesthetic is going to be a more 'populist' one and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself.
But I'm not sure that the Bash-Camp style public school evangelicals were/are (if they still exist) any more inclined towards 'high' or more challenging art forms ...
If anything, the posher end of evangelicalism is no more 'refined' - if I can put it that way - in its aesthetic than the populist end.
That said, Lord Shaftesbury, that noted Victorian 'Prayer Book Evangelical' always had an issue with the Salvation Army - which seems to have been on grounds of taste rather than anything else ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, one of the ironies about Eliot is that he proclaimed a kind of classicism, but made it forever impossible, as thousands of teenage poets began to speak of the fragments and ruins of culture which they had gathered together, in hideous reams of free verse.
A sort of classical art can be found in Georgian architecture, but I don't think that anything like that is possible today. Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Regarding architecture, we all know that in the late 19th century Nonconformist evangelicals took lessons from the CofE and the RCC and sought to make their church buildings more imposing and aesthetically impressive. Some of them no doubt hired respected architects to create something striking.
Among the many churches I've come across the Baptist ones in particular seem to have gone in for this kind of thing. Only yesterday I discovered that my local Baptist church is a listed building. I know that listing isn't just about aesthetics, but that's usually one aspect, isn't it?
As for writing, I do sense that a few Christians have been ever so slightly underwhelmed when I've told them that my thesis is on contemporary literature. I'm not sure if that's about a theological bias against novels and poetry, or whether it's simply a cultural feeling that literature is less important than the sciences, for example. There was a growing evangelical disapproval of novels and drama in the 18th and 19th centuries, and I do wonder to what extent that's persisted.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.
No more than this is true of 'great' theology, I'd say.
Theology doesn't simply repeat what has already been said. Rather, it responds to new challenges or uncovers old problematics. Someone like Barth isn't simply paraphrasing Calvin. He's responding to questions Calvin never addressed, and perhaps couldn't have addressed. Whatever orthodoxy is, it has to be able to evolve in such a way that it takes new forms.
Art is able to be orthodox in that way. Dante or Herbert are orthodox, yet don't simply transcribe what's already been done.
The problem I suspect for fundamentalist art is a culture that maintains that there is no evolution in thought - so that the orthodoxy of a theologian is simply their ability to repeat what has been already said. That ends up not with the same message, but with a cento, quite a different thing. But if you think that orthodox art is just dressing up the same old message in a new sugar coating, you have a problem.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
]I don't know - from a traditional Catholic view, aren't we supposed to reach the end with assurance that we'll be welcomed into heaven? The Requiem fills me with dread that we won't, and there is naught but darkness.
I thought assurance was a Protestant doctrine? Calvinists on these boards are always telling the rest of us that without predestination we don't have assurance. The Dies Irae isn't Mozart's invention, but a traditional part of the Catholic funeral mass. The Catholic attitude I believe is not assurance but hope.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sola gratia
Apprentice
# 14065
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Posted
This is an interesting discussion point. I'd started to wonder about this recently, and it's helped crystallize my thoughts a little.
What Jade Constable and Gamaliel have said about there being a tendency for evangelicals either steer away from poetry, the poetic and other creative, subjective areas, e.g. much art, unless with a 'Gospel message' or similar moral point', chimes with my experience and observations.
I studied at a university in an English city dominated ecclesiastically by a particular Con Evo church, whose attendees therefore also dominated the Christian Union of which I was briefly part - so I think we can say this is an evangelical scene alright. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I remember hearing that one art student friend was going on to work for UCCF, helping the Christian Unions, and it occurred to me that that was quite unusual, not just being a non-scientist/Bsc student (most CU members were probably doing something medical or otherwise scientific or non-liberal arty, and there were and are many, many Christian medical workers at the Con Evo church) but in having a clearly non-'rational' discipline whilst working for an evangelical organization with an emphasis on apologetics and logic and things. It's probably impossible to say which informs which, but it seems to me there was a definite pattern of scientist/'rational' subject & evangelical worldview which didn't really know what to do with the uncertainty and challenging that art opens the door to in a different way to science. Most creativity in that scene (and there was some creativity), I would say, was more, as mentioned already by other posters including Gamaliel with this cover photo anecdote, in the line of 'we use this beauty/art for an evangelistic/worship purpose, because it provides a lead in to a question we want to discuss/raise with someone, not for itself per se'. And if anything artistic was used in meetings/services, it would tend to be something literary from e.g. CS Lewis (so, prose then), or a quote, maybe an artistic rendering of a parable or Jesus, or of course music. Poetry? Not to my memory. And it was never something discussed.
I realize this could well be rather influenced by my university's specialism in medicine and sciences determining the type of people who would be studying there and therefore who was worshipping/attending CU, but there were many other degree courses too, yet most Christian students in CU were on the science/engineering etc. side of things, rather than the arts. There were a handful of English Lit or social scientists, I think, but artists or musicians were very much in the minority. So I came away with an impression that poetry and creativity were not valued quite so much as rationality and scientific, logical things. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I don't know how much this was my particular scene in that particular very scientifically-dominated academic arena and how much that might be seen as a (British) conservative evangelical tendency generally, I suppose the two can't be easily separated, but that's my experience anyway.
I wonder if this didn't threaten to create a bit of an inferiority complex in those with a more 'poetic' or philosophical bent, in the words of the OP, in this evangelical culture. For myself,
it wasn't until I left university and abandoned the mainly evangelical bubble I'd started out in there that I felt suddenly able to(re)explore my own interest in reading and writing poetry (at the same time as questioning and starting to abandon some of my previous evangelical beliefs, incidentally). I have a feeling a younger me in evangelical culture unconsciously felt that my poetic nature was a bit foolish and overemotional ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) , and that I wasn't allowed to consider poetry, art or similar creative expressions 'worthy' pursuits unless somehow directly evangelistic, worship-orientated (e.g. beautiful landscapes, hymns of praise, meditations on passages from the Bible). I also have a feeling that even if I had realised I could write poetry then, I wouldn't have shown any of my evangelical friends, as I don't think they'd have been interested or have known what to do with it! I think that says something.
(On the other hand, the Charismatic church I briefly attended would probably have lapped it up! It was a wacky place, though, with little discernment, and would have read out all sorts of strange things, so I'm not sure that extreme is great either... but I can see how it might have been the place which attracted creative types more than CU.)
So basically, I'd probably agree with the assertion in the OP in general.
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I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment - Bill Bailey
Posts: 20 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would agree-- and very much like-- your definition of poetry. I would very much disagree (no surprise) with your depiction of evangelical "certainty"-- although I recognize it. There is certainly a strain of evangelicalism that's all about "power evangelism" and "power preaching" and "alpha leadership" that has that brazen unreflective certainty about it ( a bit of whistling in the dark, perhaps). But again, there are more poetic thoughtful writers-- people like Parker Palmer and Fredrick Buechner (would they consider themselves evangelical? I don't know. But they are much beloved in evangelical circles), as well as more obvious (but less poetic) evangelical writers like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren where their very appeal is the lack of certainty and the embrace of doubt and mystery.
It may be, and I think it is, that evangelical practice and theory differ in North America and Europe. I was exposed to the very certain American version in the 1970s, in Alberta, that most American of our provinces. And have seen and avoided Alpha recruitement. So I expect you are right. And I may be too narrow in my avoidant definition.
fyi: I left a word out of my phrase there-- I meant "alpha dog leadership" (i.e. a certain brand of very high-powered, aggressively masculine leadership") as opposed to any reference to Alpha per se, which has had far less influence in American evangelicalism than it has elsewhere.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Among the many churches I've come across the Baptist ones in particular seem to have gone in for this kind of thing. Only yesterday I discovered that my local Baptist church is a listed building. I know that listing isn't just about aesthetics, but that's usually one aspect, isn't it?
It's usually based on age and landmark status - see also the Battersea Power Station. Baptist churches tend to be built along a certain pattern that were an attempt to solve various practical problems they faced around the time most of them were built (pairs of entrances with double doors to keep heat in - for instance).
quote:
As for writing, I do sense that a few Christians have been ever so slightly underwhelmed when I've told them that my thesis is on contemporary literature
Contemporary literature tends to be a minority pursuit anyway - even outside Christianity - I suspect you'd have the same response in similarly placed non-Christian groups.
[ 22. December 2013, 14:04: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That makes sense to me, Sola Gratia ... and think it that it is broadly true of a particular brand of evangelicalism ...
Meanwhile, on the architectural thing ... that tendency was true right across the more 'respectable' non-conformist denominations, SvitlanaV2. In Yorkshire it was generally the Congregational churches which hired the best architects and built the most impressive buildings.
I'd say that the Baptists were, on the whole, less likely to go in for architectural show than the Congregationalists and the Wesleyan Methodists ... the Primitive Methodists couldn't afford to ... but where there were well-heeled Baptist congregations it did happen.
It all puts me in mind of a popular verse from my native South Wales -
The Trewllyn* Methodists have built a church,
The front looks like an abbey,
And thinking they can fool the Lord,
They've left the back part shabby.
* I can't remember the name of the place, but I'll look it up later.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
On Eliot and free verse ... sure, but he wrote a kind of 'free blank verse'.
Even in The Waste Land the 'music' is unerring.
Eliot was a lot more formally metrical than is often realised. Sure, a lot of dud free-verse followed but not all free-verse is dud ...
I tend to write free-verse by default - other than for more pubby, performance poems - but I'm trying to master more formal forms ... as it were. But even when I'm writing free-verse I'm conscious of the iambic tread and swing ...
Eliot was the master of 'free blank verse' and there's a Jacobean quality about his writing, which isn't surprising as he almost single-handedly revived interest in Jacobean drama and so on.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
As for writing, I do sense that a few Christians have been ever so slightly underwhelmed when I've told them that my thesis is on contemporary literature
Contemporary literature tends to be a minority pursuit anyway - even outside Christianity - I suspect you'd have the same response in similarly placed non-Christian groups. [/QB]
To an extent. But I'd agree with SvitlanaV2, many Christians remain uncomfortable with the study of literature or with literary or artistic activity that doesn't directly connect in some way with rather utilitarian concerns.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd say that the Baptists were, on the whole, less likely to go in for architectural show than the Congregationalists and the Wesleyan Methodists ... the Primitive Methodists couldn't afford to ... but where there were well-heeled Baptist congregations it did happen.
It all puts me in mind of a popular verse from my native South Wales -
The Trewllyn* Methodists have built a church,
The front looks like an abbey,
And thinking they can fool the Lord,
They've left the back part shabby.
* I can't remember the name of the place, but I'll look it up later.
The Baptists in my city must have been better off, then. They're definitely got the poshest Nonconformist churches. Maybe the Methodists and Congregationalists once did, but their original buildings mostly seem to be long gone, especially for the latter.
Those Victorian evangelicals can't win, can they? They're accused of being philistines, but when they splash out on stained glass windows, gargoyles and lots of gold lettering, etc. etc. in sincere imitation of the more artistic CofE they're subjected to mockery. Poor dears!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think this whole thread - and Gamaliel's approach to this subject - smacks so very much of light night BBC 2 literature review programmes. It's pretentious, elitist, snobbish, and very condescending to those who like things for what they are and are not impressed with people who know a lot about stuff that the majority couldn't give two hoots about.
At one point Gamaliel derides evangelical poetry as doggerel but then when I point him to some poetry that is clearly NOT doggerel he questions my personal use of the word 'stunning' not realising that it is used in the context of unexpected (by him at any rate) and surprisingly not doggerel.
For the benefit of Shipmates THIS is the link to the CD artowrk containing the words - you need to scroll down to the 4th panel and then enlarge the image.
Not doggerel, and IMHO, beautiful language which, if it had an obscure author's name at the bottom - one known only to academics - I daresay you'd be agreeing with me.
My point in saying this is that Catherine Baird the poet, an evangelical, is also regarded as a kind of mystic in SA literary circles and I believe these words point to that.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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