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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Slavery reparations from European nations
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
link
Should countries be on the hook for slavery from 150 years ago and before?
quote:
The Caribbean Community (Caricom) approved a 10-point plan for reparations at a two-day meeting in St Vincent and the Grenadines that was due to wrap up on Tuesday, said Martyn Day, a UK-based lawyer at Leigh Day, who is working on the case.
The Caribbean countries said that European governments in addition to being responsible for conducting slavery and genocide, also imposed 100 years of racial apartheid and suffering on freed slaves and the survivors of genocide.
Having just gone through the Residential Schools 'Truth and Reconcilliation Commission' in Canada, there is merit I think if something more than money is required.
[ 28. June 2014, 09:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
Haiti in particular has a pretty strong case for reparations. After the revolution it was forced to pay the former slave owners 150 million gold francs. They didn't finish paying till 1947 and the debt severely damaged the country.
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
In the specific case of Haiti, I can see grounds for seeking repayment of the indemnity the rebellious slaves were forced to pay to the French government. Long story short, a large French fleet demanded the payment of 150,000,000 francs in 1825 (roughly equivalent to a present day sum of US$21,000,000,000) as damages for property lost in the 1804 slave revolt that led to Haitian independence. Said "property", incidentally, included the monetary value of the rebellious slaves themselves. Through usurious interest and other shady practices, France was still extracting payments until 1947. That's a lot of "post-slavery" time to be bleeding a country dry for having the temerity to stage a successful slave revolt.
This is an interesting case because, unlike a lot of calls for generalized "reparations", it involves a definite sum extracted by a still-existing entity (the French government).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
The Haitian debt to France is particularly egregious (a big word for shameful), and this financial imposition can be fairly said to be a principal cause of the weakness of the Haitian state ever since. Legally, it has the clear advantage of a link between one existing entity to another, as noted by Croesos.
Other claims encounter challenges of figuring out who the recipients might be, questions of state succession and obligation among debtors, and sums involved-- offhand I don't see the debtors involved in wanting to even discuss the claims in a serious way, and the recipient states don't have that much influence to obtain acceptance of the charges involved or even an admission of the principle.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
The Caricom countries might have had more credibility were it not for the shocking human rights record of most of them, lasting and delighted in even in the present day.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
I didn't think they were doing to badly in comparison with the rest of the world? And not badly at all in comparison with slavery.
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
What's the value of the set off?
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
You mean one might be owed 100 billion USD to recompense the wrongs of slavery, but have to give 1 billion back for maintaining the death penalty for longer than Europe and another few billion for promoting homophobia?
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
Europe made a lot of money out of slavery and the slave trade, so in that sense then reparations might be justified. Germany paid reparation to the state of Israel, which didn't even exist during World War II, for the Holocaust and the theft of Jewish people's wealth.
A lot of the reaction against this seems to come from not wanting to be accused of racism or human rights abuses. If you think of slavery as an unfair economic system, then the concept of compensating countries whose local indigenous populations were killed off by settlers and had their natural resources extracted and sold at huge prices abroad - then reparations don't seem to unreasonable.
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
You mean one might be owed 100 billion USD to recompense the wrongs of slavery, but have to give 1 billion back for maintaining the death penalty for longer than Europe and another few billion for promoting homophobia?
I was thinking that if one accepts that money is owed for the supposed misdeeds of colonialism, then shouldn't deductions be made for its benefits?
Caribbean countries were presumably free to abolish the death penalty and decriminialise homosexual acts at any time after indepedence? (In fact, I think bust ups over the death penalty is one of the reasons why former British colonies no longer want to send appeal cases to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in London.)
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I was thinking that if one accepts that money is owed for the supposed misdeeds of colonialism, then shouldn't deductions be made for its benefits?
Presumably you mean it's supposed benefits - if we are going to be sceptical about everything.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
Perhaps they could try to get some money out of the West African and Arab countries, the ancestors of whose present inhabitants rounded up the slaves and sold them to the European traders.
Good luck with that.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Perhaps they could try to get some money out of the West African and Arab countries, the ancestors of whose present inhabitants rounded up the slaves and sold them to the European traders.
Good luck with that.
So you think that poor countries in Africa should be expected to pay up, and the rich countries in Europe that demonstrably made a lot of money from plantations and the slave trade should just sit back and watch.
What Africans and Arabs did does not negate what Europeans did in the slightest. For all you know the next CARICOM priority will be your idea. But for now, starting with Europe given that they, you know, have money, makes a lot more sense.
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
If slavery is a bad thing for the victim, does it matter whether the oppressor or oppressors made money out of it or how much? The act of oppression is the bad thing, isn't it?
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If slavery is a bad thing for the victim, does it matter whether the oppressor or oppressors made money out of it or how much? The act of oppression is the bad thing, isn't it?
At the very least it would give a rough measure of culpability. Return of stolen goods is usually considered the bare minimum required for justice in most cases not involving states. Plus it seems unjust for the oppressor to retain "all the wealth piled by the bondsman's . . . years of unrequited toil".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The Caricom countries might have had more credibility were it not for the shocking human rights record of most of them, lasting and delighted in even in the present day.
Which countries are you thinking of? The island nations have done far better than the Latin countries surrounding the Caribbean Sea; I'm wondering if you've mixed up who are the member countries.
This is the listing of member nations:
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Dominica
Grenada
Guyana
Haiti
Jamaica
Montserrat
St Kitts & Nevis
Saint Lucia
St Vincent & Grenadines
Suriname
Trinidad and Tobago
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If slavery is a bad thing for the victim, does it matter whether the oppressor or oppressors made money out of it or how much? The act of oppression is the bad thing, isn't it?
Large scale oppression usually occurs because someone has something to gain from it. The one who gains the most surely has the most to answer for; and it's been said that Africa lost far more than it gained in the Transatlantic slave trade.
However, it's untrue to say that coastal African nations have been let off the hook. They've often been heavily criticised by African Americans and African Caribbeans for their historical complicity in the Transatlantic trade. The relationship between these three groups can be quite tense as a result of that history. However, there have been some attempts towards rapprochement, and some apologies from the African side. There have been attempts to encourage members of the diaspora to 'come home' and help Africa. More could be done, no doubt.
I've noticed that 'repatriation' is one of the topics included in CARICOM's agenda. I don't know what exactly they mean by this, but it suggests that there is an African angle to the proceedings.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've noticed that 'repatriation' is one of the topics included in CARICOM's agenda. I don't know what exactly they mean by this, but it suggests that there is an African angle to the proceedings.
I came across it in another article - it's about the Rastafarians essentially. Apparently many of them have struggled to get citizenship in the African countries they believe to be their origin - Ghana in particular - and they want a means for slave descendants to get a route to citizenship so that they can move "back" to Africa.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
The first large British repatriation to Africa project was started in 1792. By the Church Missionary Society. Taken over officially by the government in 1808.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister
But for now, starting with Europe given that they, you know, have money, makes a lot more sense.
You mean that the Arab states don't have money?!
Also, what money are you talking about from Europe? Money extracted from innocent taxpayers? Money earmarked for basic services, the lack of which will result in great hardship?
Or don't the needs of innocent Europeans matter in this equation?
Furthermore, if the money is ever paid (which, thank God, it won't be), then in whose pockets will it go? Let me guess now...
(Anyway, we are too busy pursuing our claim for damages from France and Italy for the brutality of the Norman Conquest and the Roman invasion respectively, so this will have to wait...)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I suppose so.
Do you really need to suppose?
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
There is a massive difference between the effects of the transatlantic slave trade and the Norman conquest, and this should be obvious. The slave trade set up societies where one (visible) group was systematically privileged over a different (visible) group. The ramifications of this haven't ended yet - when you drop that kind of weight of racism into a society the ripples spread out for a very long time. Privilege begets privilege and it takes a great deal of work for it to be ironed out. The original slaves and masters are long gone, of course, but the effects of what happened are still felt in a way that other historical events aren't necessarily. A better comparison would be with Britain and former colonies - to this day many countries can trace problems back to European colonialism. We took over countries, we bled them dry, we left and now we blame them for being poor. I think it's both unwise and unjust to deny this.
That said, I'm not sure that financial reparations are the answer - or if they are, it would be very difficult to set this up in a sensible and fair way. People have tried to put into monetary terms what the cost of being born African American is, compared with being white, in terms of missed opportunities due to racism. It's a really difficult thing to put a value on. Largely this is because the effects which we're still feeling now are general trends based on average outcomes, but any kind of benefit would have to be on the individual level. So while it may be the case that A's ancestors screwed over B's ancestor's, in a way that causes lesser negative ramifications for B today, there is no way to make that up from A's purse without causing all manner of counterproductive resentment.
We're not responsible for what our ancestors did; we may be responsible for trying to dismantle any benefits that we still get now for what they did, but trying to institutionalise that is very difficult indeed.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister
But for now, starting with Europe given that they, you know, have money, makes a lot more sense.
Also, what money are you talking about from Europe? Money extracted from innocent taxpayers? Money earmarked for basic services, the lack of which will result in great hardship?
Or don't the needs of innocent Europeans matter in this equation?
You are quite right re: the difficulties inherent to the process-- a logistical nightmare as one attempts to parse out what trans-generational justice looks like.
In the broadest terms, though, the point is that everyone in Europe (and America) has benefitted economically from the legacy of slavery, just as everyone in Africa has been harmed by it. So while we all may be "innocent" in the sense of not personally responsible for the tragic sins of our forefathers (and in many cases, not genetically related to those who committed those sins) we all have in essence been the recipients of "stolen goods". Our economies are built on the ruins of an unjust system.
But, as you suggest, parsing that out is going to be messy-- probably irretrievably so. It gets more complicated as one ponders, for example, contemporary African-Americans descendants of slaves who may be both the victims and beneficiaries of slavery for the reasons noted above. What does even rough justice look like there? How do you factor in the cost/benefit analysis of that-- as well as the cost/(no real benefit) of Jim Crow-- vs. the cost to an African?
Sin is messy. The answers are not simple.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Let's be honest here: no one's going to get any 'reparations money'. It's all posturing. Western governments are happy to give aid, but it's pretty obvious by now that anything called 'reparations' is a no-no. I don't see any sign that this is likely to change.
It's an interesting topic for discussion, but I hope that CARICOM has a more realistic hidden political agenda behind the public one.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I was thinking that if one accepts that money is owed for the supposed misdeeds of colonialism, then shouldn't deductions be made for its benefits?
So, Germany is owed some money back because the Jews got a homeland out of the deal? Ooh, and even more because by reducing the population, they fit in it more easily.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I was thinking that if one accepts that money is owed for the supposed misdeeds of colonialism, then shouldn't deductions be made for its benefits?
So, Germany is owed some money back because the Jews got a homeland out of the deal? Ooh, and even more because by reducing the population, they fit in it more easily.
So far as I'm aware, Germany played no formal role in the establishment of the state of Israel. The Israelis did it.
[ 12. March 2014, 16:46: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Let's be honest here: no one's going to get any 'reparations money'.
Exactly. And most people campaigning for reparations know that and don't expect it. It is a device to negotiate aid budgets, funding for projects, to make a point, to express anger at racism and many other things.
There are many reactions to such claims that might be helpful but derision isn't one of them.
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Let's be honest here: no one's going to get any 'reparations money'.
Exactly. And most people campaigning for reparations know that and don't expect it. It is a device to negotiate aid budgets, funding for projects, to make a point, to express anger at racism and many other things.
There are many reactions to such claims that might be helpful but derision isn't one of them.
And yet it is a very popular one, arguably the majority reaction I would say.
Funny that. I wonder why that would be. Why would the overwhelming response to such demands be derision?
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
So far as I'm aware, Germany played no formal role in the establishment of the state of Israel. The Israelis did it.
A bit disingenuous an argument perhaps? Do you honestly think Isreal would have been established when it was, and as easily, if the Holocaust had not happened?
Alright, perhaps that illustration does not work for you.
How about a child killer getting a reduced sentence because the victim's family were poor? Fewer children, easier to care for.
Ludicrous? Yes. As is the "benefit of colonialism" tripe.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I wonder why that would be. Why would the overwhelming response to such demands be derision?
Tell me why it's an unhelpful reaction and I'll entertain you with my account of the motivations of those doing the deriding.
[ 12. March 2014, 17:11: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Funny that. I wonder why that would be. Why would the overwhelming response to such demands be derision?
Ignorance, selfishness and defensiveness.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller
In the broadest terms, though, the point is that everyone in Europe (and America) has benefitted economically from the legacy of slavery, just as everyone in Africa has been harmed by it.
...everyone.... everyone...???
That simply is not true. There is immense wealth enjoyed by some in Africa, and the ancestors of millions in Europe were enslaved as wage slaves in the Industrial Revolution. Have you read about the conditions of urban slums in the nineteenth century? Hell on earth.
So presumably the descendants of those who endured this "hell on earth" are now economically suffering, and deserve compensation?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
So far as I'm aware, Germany played no formal role in the establishment of the state of Israel.
So this never happened?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Some people always get defensive when Transatlantic slavery is under discussion. Maybe they feel threatened by the subject, as if they themselves are being accused of being slave traders or owners. Maybe it's an unacknowledged sense of guilt about colonial history and its consequences. Maybe there's an anxiety about the increasing instability of previously accepted cultural and imperial norms.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Hell on earth.
Better than slavery though. Which was still going on in the nineteenth century.
But of course some in Africa did benefit from selling slaves. This was a minority though, and overall the continent has suffered economically from the loss of labour, and suffered psychologically much more with the bereavement of the disappeared and then the knowledge of what happened to them and all the associated implications of racial inferiority.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
There is immense wealth enjoyed by some in Africa, and the ancestors of millions in Europe were enslaved as wage slaves in the Industrial Revolution. Have you read about the conditions of urban slums in the nineteenth century? Hell on earth.
Noone is saying that Europeans didn't oppress each other in the slums of Europe. (Actually, though, the argument could be made that Transatlantic slavery made conditions for working class Europeans worse, in certain respects. The Marxists probably have some theories about that.)
BTW, how are you connecting the wealth of individuals in modern Africa and the Transatlantic slave trade? Are you saying that individual Africans are now wealthy as a result of that? It's an interesting thought. Do you have any refs?
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
Many of the currently wealthy families in Kenya obtained their advantage with an ancestor profiting at the expense of his/her (but mainly his) peers through collaboration with colonialism. That happened after slavery ended, of course, but I guess it's possible a similar dynamic exists from the days of slavery in West Africa.
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
So far as I'm aware, Germany played no formal role in the establishment of the state of Israel.
So this never happened?
I'm not saying it didn't. But I don't see what that has got to do with the establishment of the state of Israel itself.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2
BTW, how are you connecting the wealth of individuals in modern Africa and the Transatlantic slave trade? Are you saying that individual Africans are now wealthy as a result of that? It's an interesting thought. Do you have any refs?
I'm not and I don't.
I was countering the idea that everyone in Africa has been harmed by the slave trade.
However, I believe it's true that some Africans cooperated with the Transatlantic Slave Trade and personally benefited from it. There's a site here about it. Whether that benefit has flowed down to their descendants is not for me to say, but if it hasn't then the same argument can be put for the benefit of the slave trade to us Europeans. What's good for the goose..., as they say.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Whether that benefit has flowed down to their descendants is not for me to say, but if it hasn't then the same argument can be put for the benefit of the slave trade to us Europeans. What's good for the goose..., as they say.
Same argument with the addition of continued colonialism for a long time after and the stripping of assets to this day.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Whether that benefit has flowed down to their descendants is not for me to say, but if it hasn't then the same argument can be put for the benefit of the slave trade to us Europeans. What's good for the goose..., as they say.
I don't think whether a relatively modest cash benefit that might flow across generations to a minority within a nation could at all be equated with an enormous plundering of wealth and labour by one nation on another. There are cities in the UK that were built on the proceeds of slavery. There will be some large houses in West Africa that were built on their share of the proceeds. The scale is different.
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon
I don't think whether a relatively modest cash benefit that might flow across generations to a minority within a nation could at all be equated with an enormous plundering of wealth and labour by one nation on another. There are cities in the UK that were built on the proceeds of slavery. There will be some large houses in West Africa that were built on their share of the proceeds. The scale is different.
Well, you seem to know a lot about the benefit to local slave traders in Africa, hence the phrase "relatively modest cash benefit". Do you actually know what that benefit would have been? For all you know, the slave trade could have aggrandised certain ethnic groups to the detriment of others, with appalling consequences right down to the present day.
As for the benefit to the UK, well it is undoubtedly true that certain cities grew and prospered because of the slave trade, but it doesn't follow that that prosperity was distributed equitably. In fact, it could be argued that such wealth actually created poverty for millions by strengthening the hand of elites, able to influence social policy.
But now the descendants of those who were impoverished are expected to pay up.
Would anybody here, arguing in favour of reparations, wish to starve and be made homeless in order to finance the vast compensation being demanded?
[ 12. March 2014, 18:23: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mr Beamish
Apprentice
# 17991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Perhaps they could try to get some money out of the West African and Arab countries, the ancestors of whose present inhabitants rounded up the slaves and sold them to the European traders.
Good luck with that.
Whilst we're at it, I think there are quite a few countries that will be demanding compensation from Italy for their slave-taking ways... in the decades leading up to 1 AD, at least.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Jan 2014
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I was countering the idea that everyone in Africa has been harmed by the slave trade.
The issue is one of societal impacts, not of individuals. Equally, the Transatlantic slave trade has had long-term malign consequences for black people and even for white people - not in terms of the odd individual here and there, but in terms of the wider society.
Of course individual Africans benefited from the slave trade - it was a trade! There are buyers and sellers. A slick seller with a ready supply and an eager market will always do well, whether he's selling people or widgets. No one can deny that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Beamish:
Whilst we're at it, I think there are quite a few countries that will be demanding compensation from Italy for their slave-taking ways... in the decades leading up to 1 AD, at least.
Except that it's not at all clear that modern Italy is the successor state of the Roman Empire. That's a distinction not at work when discussing, for example, France*. Today's Fifth Republic maintains (and is largely recognized by others) as the legitimate successor of earlier French regimes, including the ones that (as discussed earlier) established the slave colony of Saint-Domingue and extorted the Haitian indemnity. If "continuity of government" works as an explanation for why the current French government holds sovereignty over Martinique (for example) and could legitimately keep extracting the Haitian indemnity until 1947, then consistency requires it applies in other less convenient areas as well.
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*Feel free to insert your own favorite former colonial power with a still-extant successor government, if you prefer.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
You mean one might be owed 100 billion USD to recompense the wrongs of slavery, but have to give 1 billion back for maintaining the death penalty for longer than Europe and another few billion for promoting homophobia?
I was thinking that if one accepts that money is owed for the supposed misdeeds of colonialism, then shouldn't deductions be made for its benefits?
Caribbean countries were presumably free to abolish the death penalty and decriminialise homosexual acts at any time after indepedence? (In fact, I think bust ups over the death penalty is one of the reasons why former British colonies no longer want to send appeal cases to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in London.)
The JCPC's reticence over hanging is a large factor in its unpopularity in CARICOM. To which end the JCPC has decided to sit in the Caribbean from time to time, to increase its 'cred' as it were.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Beamish:
Whilst we're at it, I think there are quite a few countries that will be demanding compensation from Italy for their slave-taking ways... in the decades leading up to 1 AD, at least.
I find this a curious argument. It suggests that the Transatlantic slave trade caused no lasting harm. It also ignores the fact that we're only talking about a few generations. Yet in the case of the USA, there were people still alive in the mid-20th century who were actually born into American slavery. The last transported slave apparently died there in the 1930s!
The British Slavery Abolition act was passed in 1833; forced apprenticeships were abolished at the end of the decade. So there would have been people alive in the 20th c. who had experienced or witnessed it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
There are cities in the UK that were built on the proceeds of slavery. There will be some large houses in West Africa that were built on their share of the proceeds. The scale is different.
The scale is different, but not as different as you suggest. We're not talking about a handful of traders in West Africa who grew personally wealthy and lived in fortified splendour from their collaboration with the wicked colonial slavers. A number of substantial kingdoms in West Africa flourished for centuries with slaving as a primary enterprise before, during and after the period of the Atlantic slave trade. They certainly sold as many slaves to North Africa and the Gulf (and for a far longer period of time) as they did to the Europeans, and sold rather more than that to each other.
The number of African slaves transported across the Middle Passage is broadly comparable to the number of European slaves taken by the Ottoman Empire and other North African traders, mainly from what is now Algeria.
But I'm puzzled by this:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Exactly. And most people campaigning for reparations know that and don't expect it. It is a device to negotiate aid budgets, funding for projects, to make a point, to express anger at racism and many other things.
There are many reactions to such claims that might be helpful but derision isn't one of them.
I accept what you say. But I don't understand the logic of it. Isn't it insincere (at least) for these people to campaign for reparations if they know that it is simply not feasible that they will ever be paid? If they already appreciate that the practical objections are overwhelming and insuperable, even if a plausible case could be made out for modern countries to pay compensation for something that was done centuries ago, then what are they really asking for? Do the people in whose name they are claiming reparations know that they don't really mean it?
If what they really hope to achieve is something else (presumably something more tangible than expressions of sorrow) isn't it counterproductive to have begun by demonstrating such a capacity for insincerity?
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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Mr Beamish
Apprentice
# 17991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Beamish:
Whilst we're at it, I think there are quite a few countries that will be demanding compensation from Italy for their slave-taking ways... in the decades leading up to 1 AD, at least.
I find this a curious argument. It suggests that the Transatlantic slave trade caused no lasting harm. It also ignores the fact that we're only talking about a few generations. Yet in the case of the USA, there were people still alive in the mid-20th century who were actually born into American slavery. The last transported slave apparently died there in the 1930s!
The British Slavery Abolition act was passed in 1833; forced apprenticeships were abolished at the end of the decade. So there would have been people alive in the 20th c. who had experienced or witnessed it.
Mmm, that's a fair enough point. But surely it suggests the counterpart: is there anyone alive guilty of the crime of perpetrating the Atlantic Slave Trade? And if so, are they specifically being charged?
Edit: Croesus also makes a fair point, although it does reinforce the notion that as time passes and culture shifts, a given geographical area or set of cultures disassociates from those societies that have gone before. The point, I suppose, being, where is the cut-off point for reparations? Is there a quantifiable or qualifiable upper limit of time, or procedure by which we can ascertain that a culture has moved on sufficiently? The examples of France and Rome are probably at opposite ends of any such scale. Where is the UK?
[ 12. March 2014, 19:27: Message edited by: Mr Beamish ]
Posts: 31 | Registered: Jan 2014
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