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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: First E. Orthodox Ecumenical Council in over 1200 years
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, so the fourth crusade was a righteous punishment of the entire city for the sins committed by some of the city. The nuns who were raped, for instance, were directly responsible for killing how many Latins? Answers on a postcard.
In what way is that even remotely a fair summary of my comments? That some nuns were among the innocent rape and/or murder victims of the sack of Constantinople does not mean that the Byzantine rulers and the population of Constantinople had no part in what happened there. In fact, it turns out that they contributed significantly to bringing this atrocity on their heads, and in part by committing an equally horrible atrocity against the (property, friends and family of) their tormentors earlier. That's simply what happened.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And the gratuitous swipe against the Orthodox Church because you were made to admit that the Pope really is a super-bishop? Please.
I was made to admit that? It is obvious that the pope is a "super-bishop" in the RCC. The question is simply what sort of "super" we are talking about. And as far as the Orthodox is concerned, the question is whether that same sort of "super" is present in their ecclesiology as well. It turns out that yes, it is very much present, but it has been dormant for a thousand years because the Orthodox just cannot get their shit together. That may be a swipe, but one that is to the point both of the subject matter and the Orthodox attempt to paint themselves as oh so different, and hence not gratuitous.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Really. When has an Orthodox bishop ever claimed infalliblity or universal jurisdiction? But at least you admit you brlieve the pope is a super-bishop and it shows the fundamental difference in our ecclesiologies. The neat a tidiness that has been created around the pope is a human invention.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... This little fact actually explains a lot in the problems between the East and the West.
Apparently, it has now been found to explain the difference between those churches that are technically categorised as Monophysite and the rest of us.
Pretty much; from the 1984 Common Declaration of Pope John Paul II of Rome and Syriac Orthodox Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I Iwas of Antioch and All the East:
quote:
"The confusions and schisms that occurred between their Churches in the later centuries, they realize today, in no way affect or touch the substance of their faith, since these arose only because of differences in terminology and culture and in the various formulae adopted by different theological schools to express the same matter. Accordingly, we find today no real basis for the sad divisions and schisms that subsequently arose between us concerning the doctrine of Incarnation. In words and life we confess the true doctrine concerning Christ our Lord, notwithstanding the differences in interpretation of such a doctrine which arose at the time of the Council of Chalcedon."
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Really. When has an Orthodox bishop ever claimed infalliblity or universal jurisdiction? But at least you admit you brlieve the pope is a super-bishop and it shows the fundamental difference in our ecclesiologies. The neat a tidiness that has been created around the pope is a human invention.
Really. If you had bothered to actually read what I had written, then you would know that I had equated to "super-bishopness" of the pope to an Ecumenical Council. The very thing that would govern the Orthodox infallibly and universally, super-episcopally, if the Orthodox communion wasn't a dysfunctional collection of national (and nationalistic) churches who are united by their shared schism from the pope more than by anything else.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Thing is, IngoB, you continue to blame the population of Constantinople en masse for the sins of some of them. It's like people (I know one, and he's otherwise fairly rational) who say "The Palestinians deserve anything the Israelis do to them because they have acted so stupidly in the years since 1948." Punishing an entire people group for the sins of some of them is actually against the Geneva Conventions. But apparently not against the teachings of the Catholic Church.
It's an awful lot like the arguments of the Pat Robertson brigade that the people of New Orleans deserved Hurricane Katrina because the city was so wicked. News flash: A lot of not wicked people suffered when that hurricane breached the seawall. Ditto the Rape of Constantinople. Bah. They all deserved it because of the Slaughter of the Latins. Repeat that 100 times and it still won't be true. I think you're up to about 5 now. 1/20th of the way there.
[ 01. April 2014, 16:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Thing is, IngoB, you continue to blame the population of Constantinople en masse for the sins of some of them. It's like people (I know one, and he's otherwise fairly rational) who say "The Palestinians deserve anything the Israelis do to them because they have acted so stupidly in the years since 1948." Punishing an entire people group for the sins of some of them is actually against the Geneva Conventions. But apparently not against the teachings of the Catholic Church.
You continue unabashedly to misread and misrepresent what I write. Nowhere have I said that that the sack of Constantinople was justified. Nowhere have I said that any particular person in Constantinople deserved the atrocities of the Venetians / crusaders as punishment. In fact, I have explicitly said the opposite, and that multiple times.
What I have said is that the Byzantines were not simply innocent victims of a sudden and unexpected attack by the Latins. The actions of the rulers and population of Constantinople directly and significantly contributed to the eventual sack of Constantinople, and to the form it took. That is plain and simple historical fact. As in many (most?) conflicts throughout history, this was not just one guilty evil side attacking another innocent saintly side. The sack of Constantinople was one particularly nasty event in a series of nasty event in which both sides have appeared as perpetrators and as victims. Something like that can be said about the modern conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, the modern (civil) wars fought over former Yugoslavia, etc. One can then still pick a side as "more of a victim", for example claiming that the Palestinians were more at the receiving end than the Israelis (or vice versa).
But it is simply bullshit to pick one event out of such ongoing conflicts, decide the roles of perpetrator and victim according to that event, and claim that this is all one needs to really know about the conflict. You cannot analyse what's happening between Palestinians and Israelis by taking either the Kafr Qasim massacre or the Costal Road massacre as your sole point of reference. And wherever one may see the majority of the blame in that conflict, one simply cannot paint one side pure black and the other pure white. Likewise, the sack of Constantinople was not an isolated event and neither Latins nor Byzantines were pure villains / perpetrators or pure saints / victims in this lengthy conflict. That's all.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Once again you lump the "population of Constantinople" into a homogeneous mass, and blame them all for the Slaughter of the Latins. That's six.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Once again you lump the "population of Constantinople" into a homogeneous mass, and blame them all for the Slaughter of the Latins. That's six.
Isn't what you accuse IngoB of doing the same thing you do here? You write:
quote:
If the fucking west hadn't fucking sacked fucking Constantinople and raided the God-dammned place, and burned the fucking city down, its strength might well have continued unabated, and the 1453 war would have been a footnote. So yeah the fall of Constantinople was a failure of the fucking West. Fuck the fucking self-righteous "oh why couldn't you accept our sweet little council?" West.
It looks to me like you're lumping the entire West "into a homogeneous mass, and blame them all" for the Sack of Constantinople.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I was following on from somebody else instantiating that term. And I wasn't using it to cast blame on anybody for their own suffering.
In short, using "the West" as a synecdoche for the leaders of the Catholic forces of western Europe is of a different nature from using "the population of Constantinople" as a synecdoche for that part of the population that took part in the murder of the Latins because of the grossly disparate uses that are being made of the two.
I will willingly admit that not all the West took part in the sacking of Constantinople, and that I was speaking loosely. Nor do I hang any blame on "the West" in such a way as to imply that the innocent townfolk of any specific western city are to blame for any harm that befell them.
IngoB has yet to admit that not all the population of Constantinople took part in the massacre of the Latins, and he continues to blame the people of Constantinople, without qualification, and there's the big thing, all I'm asking for is a qualification and he is unwilling and unable to provide me one, for the destruction of their city.
So, no. That's not what I'm doing.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In short, using "the West" as a synecdoche for the leaders of the Catholic forces of western Europe is of a different nature from using "the population of Constantinople" as a synecdoche for that part of the population that took part in the murder of the Latins because of the grossly disparate uses that are being made of the two.
*wiggle* *wiggle* *squirm*
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
IngoB has yet to admit that not all the population of Constantinople took part in the massacre of the Latins, and he continues to blame the people of Constantinople, without qualification, and there's the big thing, all I'm asking for is a qualification and he is unwilling and unable to provide me one, for the destruction of their city.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Yes, mousethief, not all of the population of Constantinople took part in the Massacre of the Latins. I never asserted that they did, nothing I said implied that they did, my point does not in the slightest rely on the assumption that they did. In fact, I have already stated this above: "That some nuns were among the innocent rape and/or murder victims of the sack of Constantinople does not mean that the Byzantine rulers and the population of Constantinople had no part in what happened there." Note, I was not saying that just your nuns were the (only) innocent victims, but that they were among them.
I'm talking about the "Byzantines" and "Latins" and their conflict in exactly the same way one talks about the "Palestinians" and "Israelis" and their conflict. It is simply not the case that these sort of terms are taken to mean every single person of these groups in such discussions. This can be a problem, e.g., if one uses the general terms to justify actions against all individuals. Except that I've constantly said that none of these actions were justified. Furthermore, my actual point has been precisely that neither side was purely good or purely evil.
So, basically, what are you going on about?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If you haven't figured out by now, and clearly you haven't, nothing I can say can clear it up for you.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you haven't figured out by now, and clearly you haven't, nothing I can say can clear it up for you.
I take it then that a qualification was not really all you were after... To avoid further misunderstandings, let's simply hear what you consider as the significance of the Massacre of the Latins on one hand, and the Byzantine rules calling in the Venetians / crusaders to settle their dynasty disputes militarily on the other hand. Do these historical facts play any role in a fair evaluation of the sack of Constantinople, or not?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Yes, but Not. The. Fucking. Point.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Gentlemen, if you can't stick to the issue without getting personal, take it to Hell.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
The events in Contantinople during the crusades were another example of the unchristian actions of people and organisations calling themselves Christian. They set back relations between East and West by centuries. Yet it all happened 810 years ago! Is there any point trying to apportion blame after so long? I hope this Council will see if anything positive can be done to mend relations now, rather than dwelling so far in the past.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
If this thread can possibly be brought back to the OP, what are possible outcomes from this council for the jurisdictional disputes in Ukraine? In the diaspora (W. Europe, North America, Australasia, etc.)? Could they settle calendar differences among themselves? What other outcomes (in terms of actual decisions) are possible?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If this thread can possibly be brought back to the OP, what are possible outcomes from this council for the jurisdictional disputes in Ukraine? In the diaspora (W. Europe, North America, Australasia, etc.)? Could they settle calendar differences among themselves? What other outcomes (in terms of actual decisions) are possible?
I don't see any jurisdictional changes at all. Too much ego and $$ involved for anybody to back down.
ETA: Not to mention bitter history
[ 02. April 2014, 19:12: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I'd like to see agreement on the calendar, be it Julian or Gregorian, but that we all celebrate the major feasts on the same days.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'd like to see agreement on the calendar, be it Julian or Gregorian, but that we all celebrate the major feasts on the same days.
Sigh. That would be nice.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'd like to see agreement on the calendar, be it Julian or Gregorian, but that we all celebrate the major feasts on the same days.
Sigh. That would be nice.
How many Orthodox bishops believe the dates of Easter and other key feasts are something where compromise is capable? Is the unlikelihood of a common calendar (I'm talking among the Orthodox) really due to politics or doctrine?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How many Orthodox bishops believe the dates of Easter and other key feasts are something where compromise is capable? Is the unlikelihood of a common calendar (I'm talking among the Orthodox) really due to politics or doctrine?
Hard to say. Certainly nobody would admit it's down to politics and not doctrine; all claim it's doctrine. How many are being honest? How many are fooling themselves? I don't know how we can know.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
4. What to do about overlapping jurisdictions in the diaspora
I'd be interested to know if any of our Orthodox contributors see this as a serious impediment to Orthodox growth in the diaspora, and what possible solutions there could be. For example, in the UK, I think there are enough Orthodox Christians to justify a UK jurisdiction, which could go towards eliminating the confusion the overlapping jurisdictions cause.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If this thread can possibly be brought back to the OP, what are possible outcomes from this council for the jurisdictional disputes in Ukraine? In the diaspora (W. Europe, North America, Australasia, etc.)? Could they settle calendar differences among themselves? What other outcomes (in terms of actual decisions) are possible?
Even before you get to differing origins, there can be devastating fights within some churches. There has been one in the local Macedonian Church for the last decade, with what I would imagine are very large sums of money being spent on lawyers' fees (not that I'm against that of course, but perhaps a church and its congregation have better ways to spend their money)
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'd like to see agreement on the calendar, be it Julian or Gregorian, but that we all celebrate the major feasts on the same days.
Sigh. That would be nice.
Perhaps a return to the days when the date was fixed by the Patriarch of Alexandria would save everyone a lot of trouble and give a way out. But I can't see that happening.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
4. What to do about overlapping jurisdictions in the diaspora
I'd be interested to know if any of our Orthodox contributors see this as a serious impediment to Orthodox growth in the diaspora, and what possible solutions there could be. For example, in the UK, I think there are enough Orthodox Christians to justify a UK jurisdiction, which could go towards eliminating the confusion the overlapping jurisdictions cause.
This is where the real reform needs to come in the Orthodox Church. The calendar is small картофель compared to this. And as I said above, there is a lot of ego and $$ wrapped up in who gets to control churches in North America. So that becomes the logjam to fixing the whole problem. I don't see any solution to this in my lifetime, or probably my children's.
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eta: "potatoes"
[ 14. April 2014, 19:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
This is where the real reform needs to come in the Orthodox Church. The calendar is small картофель compared to this. And as I said above, there is a lot of ego and $$ wrapped up in who gets to control churches in North America. So that becomes the logjam to fixing the whole problem. I don't see any solution to this in my lifetime, or probably my children's.
I think this is rather sad. Yesterday I was in the beautiful English village of Walsingham, noted for alomst a thousand years of Christian devotion, cut short by Henry VII's destructive policies in 1539. Since it's resoration last century, many English Christian groups have established a foothold there, including the Orthodox, and I visited both their churches there. One, St Seraphim is under the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Sourozh (Russian Orthodox Church). The other, Holy Transfiguration is under the Ecumenical Patriarch. This can't possibly help them to evangelise.
They are both tiny churches in a small village, albeit a village of pilgrimage. How does it require two different jurisdictions to represent one village. I can see that you are very frustrated by this yourself, and I'm not trying to provocatively stir thr pot. I'm just suggesting that, if the Orthodox Church wants to be a force to be reckoned with in countries outside the traditional jurisdictions, the Ecumenical Council needs to give some serious thought to this.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Henry VII's
Sorry typo. I meant Henry VIII's .
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
if the Orthodox Church wants to be a force to be reckoned with in countries outside the traditional jurisdictions, the Ecumenical Council needs to give some serious thought to this.
Indeed, they need to fix it. On the other hand many (far too many) Orthodox think of the OC as a collection of ethnic country clubs with a religious veneer. Why would a non-Greek want to join a Greek parish? Or a non-Russian a Russian parish?
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
While this isn't strictly about the Ecumenical Council, it doesn't give much hope that any improvement in relations with the West is going to come anytime soon. I can genuinely say that I'm attracted to so many aspects of Orthodox theology. But their relationship, or more accurately lack of it, with the rest of the world does nothing for me.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
While this isn't strictly about the Ecumenical Council, it doesn't give much hope that any improvement in relations with the West is going to come anytime soon. I can genuinely say that I'm attracted to so many aspects of Orthodox theology. But their relationship, or more accurately lack of it, with the rest of the world does nothing for me.
From the "Please Stop Being on My Side" files. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Weird they denounce the bodily assumption of Mary, since that's an acceptable theologoumenon in the OC, and indeed rather implied by the traditional story of the Dormition, in which Thomas the Apostle finds her tomb empty. But that's all by the bye.
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
Meh, Andreas and Seraphim are well known for being on the lunatic fringe of the Church of Greece.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Meh, Andreas and Seraphim are well known for being on the lunatic fringe of the Church of Greece.
I saw "Andreas" and I thought you meant Squiggle.
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
While this isn't strictly about the Ecumenical Council, it doesn't give much hope that any improvement in relations with the West is going to come anytime soon. I can genuinely say that I'm attracted to so many aspects of Orthodox theology. But their relationship, or more accurately lack of it, with the rest of the world does nothing for me.
I've found the only way I keep my faith is by keeping out of church politics and largely remaining ignorant of what's going on "behind the scenes". I mean that for my own parish, let alone my diocese, the wider church in this country, or even what goes on elsewhere. I'm sure it's an unholy mess, but I know the majority of priests, bishops, etc. are good people trying to do their best. You are going to have fundamentalists, and the MO of fundamentalists is to attack their co-religionists; which whether these Metropolitans care to admit or not is what Catholics are to them. I'm sure there are some Old Calendar bishops and priests in Greece who would say the exact same things about these two Metropolitans - that they're heretics, laymen, serve the "New World Order", etc. That is their mindset. I gather from reading that Archbishop Ieronymos is actually a nice guy and a moderate but is stuck in the middle of deep conflicts in the Greek Church. I always read screeds such as the one by the two Metropolitans as not really being about who they are attacking, but pointing to some kind of inner conflicts and insecurities.
Two bishops does not the church make.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I always read screeds such as the one by the two Metropolitans as not really being about who they are attacking, but pointing to some kind of inner conflicts and insecurities.
I'd expand that to include all screeds, religious or otherwise.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I saw "Andreas" and I thought you meant Squiggle.
Not sure if they ordaining me a bishop would be a wise choice. Now that I think about it, they have made worse choices in the past ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Weird they denounce the bodily assumption of Mary
They refer to a bodily assumption that supposedly took place before she experienced death. To them, Mary died, her soul got separated from her body, then Jesus united soul and body, effected her resurrection and transferred her to Heavens, body and soul.
That said…
History made a mess and the faithful and church officials try to deal with it. Both churches condemned each other in the past*, but now times changed, religion is no longer of primary importance for the Western world, although politics and money still play a central role. So a diplomatic solution of some sort needs to be found.
Good luck with that. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Also, the agenda of the council is not yet clear. This just shows how complicated a process it is. I guess we'll wait and see!
Happy Easter!
*hence the need for some some sort of historical revisionism like what is already taking place here and elsewhere
[ 19. April 2014, 15:41: Message edited by: El Greco ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Meh, Andreas and Seraphim are well known for being on the lunatic fringe of the Church of Greece.
I saw "Andreas" and I thought you meant Squiggle.
Wow - turns out you can call spirits from the vasty deep!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Wow - turns out you can call spirits from the vasty deep!
Now taking requests.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by El Greco:
They refer to a bodily assumption that supposedly took place before she experienced death.
Surely not BEFORE she died.
Like Jesus, she died first.
That is certainly the OC's teaching. Officially, IIRC, the RCC is neutral on the question of whether she died first. One of our resident Catholics can set me straight here.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
El Greco
Welcome back. Is this a resurrection (of interest in the Ship, that is)?
[ 20. April 2014, 06:54: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
El Greco
Welcome back. Is this a resurrection (of interest in the Ship, that is)?
Just wanted to wish you all a happy Easter, skimmed through the site and noticed mousethief's comment ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Much appreciated, thanks, and your good wishes reciprocated. Do drop in any time the fancy takes you.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Wow - turns out you can call spirits from the vasty deep!
Now taking requests.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by El Greco:
They refer to a bodily assumption that supposedly took place before she experienced death.
Surely not BEFORE she died.
Like Jesus, she died first.
That is certainly the OC's teaching. Officially, IIRC, the RCC is neutral on the question of whether she died first. One of our resident Catholics can set me straight here.
You are the Witch of Endor and I claim my £5
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by El Greco:
They refer to a bodily assumption that supposedly took place before she experienced death.
Surely not BEFORE she died.
Like Jesus, she died first.
That is certainly the OC's teaching. Officially, IIRC, the RCC is neutral on the question of whether she died first. One of our resident Catholics can set me straight here.
You're quite right, mousthief. The RCC is officially agnostic on whether Our Lady tasted death before she was assumed body and soul - which leaves open the possibility that she didn't.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by El Greco:
Just wanted to wish you all a happy Easter, skimmed through the site and noticed mousethief's comment
Good to hear from you again Andreas. Come and chat again!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The RCC is officially agnostic on whether Our Lady tasted death before she was assumed body and soul - which leaves open the possibility that she didn't.
Right, which is why y'all call Aug 15 "the Assumption" while we call it "the Dormition" -- we're committing to her having died, whereas y'all leave that an open question. And of course we both agree she was assumed. I assume that back in the bowels of time, different traditions arose in different places as to the end of her earthly life.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That is certainly the OC's teaching. Officially, IIRC, the RCC is neutral on the question of whether she died first. One of our resident Catholics can set me straight here.
It would be more accurate to say that the RCC does not absolutely require her faithful to believe that she died before being assumed to heaven. Pope Pius XII left this question deliberately open in his dogmatic ex cathedra definition, suggesting that he at least did not consider this question settled at the level of "Divine certainty". However, the Eastern Catholics in the RCC celebrate no different from their Orthodox cousins. Furthermore, her death is explicitly mentioned in historical Western liturgy (in the "Sacramentarium Gregorianum" sent by Pope Hadrian I to Charles the Great), and there are some incidental mentions in the Church Fathers and more pros than cons in less authoritative writing from late antiquity. Ludwig Ott in his well known book on RC dogmatic theology considers her death prior to the assumption as "sententia communior" of the RCC, where "communis" would be widely believed and generally accepted by theologians but left free for opinions, and "communior" is the same but more so. Basically, the vast majority of RCs (or at least RC theologians, given that it's not a typical topic of reflection for most RCs) think that the BVM died before being assumed. But if you think that she was assumed without dying first, or after being resurrected Lazarus-style first (also an existing opinion), then Rome is not going to call you a heretic over that. That's not exactly "neutral" though, unless one defines as neutral all that is not binding.
[ 23. April 2014, 21:22: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Fair enough. Would it be fair to day that dogmatically it's neutral, but doctrinally it's dormitionist?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Fair enough. Would it be fair to day that dogmatically it's neutral, but doctrinally it's dormitionist?
Yes, but I'm not sure that this on its own would get you more than a "huh?" from people who have not followed our brief discussion here. There also is quite possibly a more interesting story to tell here at the level of "folk belief", concerning both the differences and similarities of Orthodox and RCs and the various opinions held in the RCC. I would bet (but do not know) that there is some strong regional RC belief somewhere out there that Pius XII didn't want to harsh. Unfortunately, I'm really clueless on folk belief/customs, since I do not come from believing folk and most of that sort of stuff is passed on in families / communities without getting into official sources or even prominently the internet.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
What is the difference between dogma and doctrine?
1-1=0. Dogma.
William Shakespeare was a great English writer. Doctrine.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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