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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 8D - Kempistry - What is the point of prayer?
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Jude
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# 3033
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Posted
God doesn't need us to pray, because he already knows what we need. We pray so that we know what we ought to pray. Thus it is a spiritural excercise on our part.
Moving on from this, does prayer make any difference at all outside ourselves? Maybe it makes absolutely no difference to what happens, but makes a difference to us, as in it teaches us to desire what God desires, whether that going to happen or not. What do you think?
[ 06. December 2014, 01:34: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Maybe a prayer for knowing what the point of prayer is might be useful
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Isn't part of prayer, opening the heart? I think when we do that, God is more present to us.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mrWaters
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# 18171
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Posted
As I see it. We pray to honor God, however I do not believe that he is some kind of megalomaniac and I don't think he needs prayers as much as we do. It is in the prayer where I almost exclusively find true peace and comfort. It seems to me like a self-serving mechanism for people (myself included). The God is almighty and knows everything. All prayers are known to Him before we say them and even if we don't say them, He sees our hearts. If He requires prayers, then it suggests that he is petty, which I don't believe he is.
Posts: 80 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: Jul 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It makes sense, because prayer is not just about passing on information. It forms our desires (as you note) and it sometimes helps us reassess our wants and needs. It gives us a chance to pour out our hurts and our joys and our frustrations. It builds the love between us and God. It does any number of things that ordinary, non-informative communication does between husbands and wives, or parents and children.
"I love you" is only news once.
"Tell me about your day" is rarely a case of real curiosity. It's more "connect to me."
"I haven't heard from you for so long!" should translate into "I missed you and I'm glad to be in contact with you now" (provided the person isn't being passive aggressive).
And so on, and so forth.
Prayer performs all these functions and a whole lot more.
Plus, on occasion, it may actually influence the course of events--just as my son's request for ice cream yesterday led me to stop at Ted Drewes and pick up some concretes today. I didn't have to do it, it wasn't fated to happen, it was just a nice little extra. I'm glad there's enough wiggle room in prayer vs. predestination to allow for ice cream trips and similar.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
My first Spiritual Director (also known as "Mum") told me at age 8 or 9 that "There are special nuns living in convents far away from anywhere so they can concentrate who are praying for all the people who can't pray for themselves"
A good Presbyterian, she did not know the word "contemplative" but she knew they were there. Even as a Good Little Presbyterian Girl with her Very Own KJV I figured that because of the World Clock they were praying constantly and could be relied upon.
Obviously you can pray for "stuff" and about "things" too. As Julian of Norwich says "First I make you want it and then you ask and then I give it to you. Rough quote.
*****
[I knew about the World Clock from my father getting up in the middle of the night to listen to the All Blacks tests on the radio ]
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
The current theme of our experimental Eighth Day board is "personal prayer, spirituality and devotion". This thread looks like a good fit for that board and a good opportunity to give it a shout-out, so I'm moving it over.
Hands together, eyes closed... here we go.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Isn't there also an aspect of prayer of aligning ourselves with God? If we pray we're listening for God's will and trying to do His will.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I think that it's important to invite God to give us what God already knows we need, to invite God to send more of his goodness and love into the world to overpower the evil and hatred, to invite God to guide us, and to accept God's invitation to be close to him/her and the honour of service.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
This kind of question seems to me to concentrate too much on the 'prayer is asking God for things' aspect, whereas prayer is far more than that.
Contrast these two thoughts;
1) giving a waiter a list of your order
2) discussing with your father what you need to do about a particular situation and what you may need.
The one is a monologue addressed to a servant who you reasonably expect will jump to it and give you what you want. The other is a much deeper and more flexible situation in which many different 'answers' are possible and the discussion itself allows you to learn much and to reassess your real needs in the situation - not to mention your real motivations.
If thinking of prayer only in terms of the 'asking', the question "What's the point?" is quite reasonable. If thinking in terms of 'talking to a loving father', clearly there very much is a point....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
If prayer is only about asking for something (other than advice/direction), then it has no point.
As the bumper sticker says: "20,000 children will die of hunger today. What makes you think that your car keys are important?"
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That helps as far as humility goes, but it's no logical argument against praying even for so-called first world provblems. If we are dealing with an infinite God (and we are), then he can be simultaneously concerned about your car keys and those 30,000 kids.
Really, if you're going to learn petitionary prayer, it is sometimes easier to start off with the tiny concrete problems (missing carkeys) than to jump right into world hunger at the get-go. Knowing my own laziness and tendency toward fatalism, I would likely give up on praying for either of them, if baby steps were ruled out.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I've been thinking about this question since it was first asked in Purgatory. As a question, it seems to require a direct answer. I'm not sure it is possible.
I might liken the question to "what is the point of art?" or "what is the point of singing?". I spent a good part of the days baking yesterday and today. I don't have to, bread is readily available in many stores. But there is something about the experience of taking water, yeast, flour and putting them together in a slow experiential way and having a finished set of loaves and buns. Prayer is like that when I'm in the right frame of mind, and the point is get to that frame of mind.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Re: the car keys: If all you are doing is developing a nice little illustration of God's power in your prayer group or witnessing, then I would have some question about your motives. If you are yelling at God because he obviously lost them for you, then... you're playing with fire. If you are seeking the calmness to allow you to find the things, then a prayer may be appropriate.
As a more-or-less deist, I find it amusing to think that God would play with car keys, however omnipotent He may be. At some level, he expects us to look after things: "stewardship" is what it is called, and we were expressly told to do it ourselves.
Making changes within ourselves to improve "life" around us is the sort of stuff He is interested in, and, even there, your own input is necessary. Prayer will certainly help in that endeavour.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
As for yelling at God because he lost my car keys for me, I don't think that's playing with fire. That's just being silly. That's not worthy of a lightning bolt--that's worthy of a lightning bug.
And maybe some rolled divine eyeballs. No more.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Re: the car keys: If all you are doing is developing a nice little illustration of God's power in your prayer group or witnessing, then I would have some question about your motives. If you are yelling at God because he obviously lost them for you, then... you're playing with fire. If you are seeking the calmness to allow you to find the things, then a prayer may be appropriate.
As a more-or-less deist, I find it amusing to think that God would play with car keys, however omnipotent He may be. At some level, he expects us to look after things: "stewardship" is what it is called, and we were expressly told to do it ourselves.
Making changes within ourselves to improve "life" around us is the sort of stuff He is interested in, and, even there, your own input is necessary. Prayer will certainly help in that endeavour.
Okay, I'll hang my ass out here.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Yes, I pray about freaking car keys. (if y'all lost them as often as we do, you would too.)
I pray about Hong Kong, ISIS, etc.
Occasionally I pray when I really, really need to find a toilet RIGHT NOW.
I know it sounds absurd, and childish too. But we were told to ask for daily bread. We were never told that God is so limited that he can't deal with our petty-but-worrisome-to-us issues at the same time as he deals with the hugely more important issues of our dying brothers and sisters. Prayer is not a zero sum game. If it were, I'd feel so guilty about taking the miracles out of the mouth of other people's children everywhere that I'd never pray at all.
I wouldn't use the car key thing as an illustration for a Bible study group, because it sounds so stupid and selfish (note: didn't say it WAS stupid or selfish) and because that tends to promote a view of God as some sort of push-button automaton, fulfilling our every prayer on command. Insert prayer here, out pop car keys. If only it were so easy.
But on the other hand, I can't rule out petitionary prayer (however humble) altogether. We are told in many places in the Bible to pray. In fact, the one time King Ahaz got all holy about it, Isaiah went Old Testament on his ass. You remember--God commands Isaiah to say to the king, "Ask me for a sign, anything, no matter how high or low." And Ahaz piously says, "Oh no, I wouldn't dream of putting God to the test that way." The reaction?
quote:
Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also?
No doubt there was a bunch of other crap going on there, but my takeaway from that episode is that I'd better not try to be more mature than God is. He says ask, I'm going to ask.
[the following is not directed at Horseman Bree, but is a thought that has occurred to me on occasion]
I think that sometimes we rule out praying for car keys, toilets, etc. because we're afraid we won't get an answer--and in those cases the unanswered prayer is brutally obvious. You pray for car keys, you don't find them, you (maybe) go into a tailspin with a faith crisis. Easier to avoid the whole problem by praying for world peace, where the situation is so complex and over-arching that you can't really say if the prayer is being answered or not.
If I pray for Uncle Fred to be healed, I must face the problem of evil, and God's apparent non-action, head-on That won't happen if I pray only for "the sick" in general, or if I refrain from petitionary prayer altogether.
But that kind of avoidance is pernicious. It's like determinedly ignoring the twinge you feel in that last molar. Maybe it will go away. But of course, it doesn't.
I'm as big as coward as anybody else. But some things are better to have out in the open, where they can maybe be dealt with. And if praying for car keys brings the question of evil out into the open, well, it was always there anyway. Time to tackle it and try to come to a livable response.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
For the individual the point of prayer is, I imagine, whatever drives the pray-er to do so. Sometimes it might be necessity (daily bread?), sometimes selfish greed, sometimes concern for others and sometimes it may seem to be the only way to share a problem. In hindsight I suspect that when I did so it was because I'd been told to and believed that God expected it.
From the church's point of view a by-product of personal and group prayer is the reinforcement of conviction through self-indoctrination. The more one can persuade people to invest (preferably publicly) in an enterprise the more they are likely to value it, and the more we value something the less likely we are to abandon it.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I appreciate the openness about praying for the mundane. It is something that I never ever do any longer. Not directly asking for anything any more. I have posted these sentiments before on other threads; I don't believe in any form of intervention in the world. Only a source of inner tranquillity, and clarity of mind, to deal with the the various things that happen, and to try to influence what I might for the better because I don't expect anything more than comfort.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
There's no way I could blame you, knowing the hell you've been through. Nothing for me to do but shut up there.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
If I don't pray, my mind can get quite chaotic and cluttered, and without focus. Prayer focuses me on God, reminds me to look to God, reminds me that I'm dependent on God, and that God is there. It helps my mind to find perspective. Prayer is essential to me. God doesn't need me to pray, but I need to pray.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
God probably doesn't need our prayers, but I think he wants them, because he wants to be in relationship with us and prayer is a main way of doing that. And from what I've found he's interested in the details of our lives.
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Steve Langton: Contrast these two thoughts;
1) giving a waiter a list of your order
2) discussing with your father what you need to do about a particular situation and what you may need.
I liked this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
It's rather appropriate that this topic has been moved to the Eighth Day, as I've only had time to read the replies on the eighth day since I posted!
I suppose that God likes us to talk to him, so in that way we can evolve spiritually by praying.
i wonder what anyone might make of this - my mother lost her keys and was told to pray to St Jude, the patron saint of the lost. Having searched all over, when she was making the meal the next evening she found her keys in a pack of cauliflower! She thought it was coincidence, but whether or not coincidence, what are the chances of that happening?
When we pray for someone who is seriously ill and they get well again, we rejoice that God has made them better, e.g. when we all prayed for Fabrice Muamba (who is incidentally a friend of a relative of mine).
We can make miracles happen by prayer, or by being motivated by prayer. For example, I have recently been motivated to donate money to a charity which helps people medically through praying and receiving an answer to prayer myself.
What happens when our prayers are apparently not answered? In the 1990s my parents were involvded in supporting mission in Rwanda and its neighours. We prayed for the president, Havyarimana I think his name was, every week. He was shot down in his aeroplane and that event triggered the terrible genocide which happened in that area. I know from hearing from missionaries working there how upset they were about what was happening. When we ask where was God, we are told that he was there suffering with those who were suffering. But it goes back to the original cause - why was Havyarimana not protected as we asked?
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I think it's important to acknowledge that we're not making anything happen through prayer, we're asking God to do something we would like God to do. A miracle wouldn't be a miracle if it were commonplace. The keys had probably fallen into the shopping, and may well have been found anyway. Praying to saints and asking them to help us is about encouraging us to focus on God.
Until God calls time on the world as it is, we're stuck with the presence of evil in it and our choice to harm others if we so decide. If we do, we must be responsible for that. God might by grace guide our victim away from harm, but this must be invited in prayer, and the victim must be listening for this to make any difference.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I appreciate the openness about praying for the mundane. It is something that I never ever do any longer. Not directly asking for anything any more. I have posted these sentiments before on other threads; I don't believe in any form of intervention in the world. Only a source of inner tranquillity, and clarity of mind, to deal with the the various things that happen, and to try to influence what I might for the better because I don't expect anything more than comfort.
I agree.
I felt rather strange during the prayers of intercesion at our Church today.
All the prayers were for intervention of one kind or another. I couldn't agree with them.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I cannot fault the praying for mundane things, and even significant things, like improvement of health. But when I hear them, or understand that they were granted (or at the very least, interpreted as having been granted), I have to restrain the thoughts that there are two classes of people: those who are chosen or special, and those who must bear life without. I also have to restrain the sadness that I cannot adhere to that optimistic worldview, which I'm getting better with.
-
[Duplicate post removed - balaam.]
[ 12. October 2014, 20:37: Message edited by: balaam ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jude: my mother lost her keys and was told to pray to St Jude, the patron saint of the lost.
I pray to St. Anthony for this one.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Optimistic?! Perverted. It's liturgical Boogie. Nobody really means it. I know Jesus told us to do it, but it's ... evolutionary and symbolic. On the way to a better understanding. What we do until we get there. I get hot eyed there. I'd LOVE it to be meaningful. For the laws of physics to be suspended. But we must put away those childish things. What I try and pray nowadays in gratitude for His provision is for more realisation of that provision. In us. BY us. That we be good news. And THEN we can say, it's because of Jesus.
And yes, sometimes He will be, should be ALL we've got. We CAN lead with Him.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Some people mean it. I mean it. I wouldn't do it if I didnt, it would seem dishonest. I really would like people to listen to God's guidance. I really would like more people to serve God in the way God calls them to, for the good of all. I really would like justice and peace and love, given as a gift from God, to be accepted by people who will act accordingly. I really would like people who are suffering to know God's presence with them, so that the spiritual healing they receive will also affect their physical and mental health.
I pray in faith and trust.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The point of prayer for me,(and I can't claim to do alot of it), is acknowledgment. Acknowledge of something/someone other than myself. Without that I'm left only with the existence of my own measly thoughts, a state which I previously found to lonely, depressing and, in a strange way, frightening.
If I simply asked for things that didn't happen then prayer would soon become pointless.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
At a church I used attend, I think almost all the prayers were requests, or even demands, for God to heal the sick and sort out those whose were troubled. I almost grew immune to it, but left that church for various reasons. Because my teenage children still went there, I went back again with my parents (for older child's baptism) and noted, along with my parents, how self-centred the prayers were. Nothing about the situation in Syria, the famine in West Africa or the problems in Ukraine (which were the main news topics of the day).
I can remember at that church how we once prayed for "a miracle" for someone who was terminally ill and critical in hospital. He died, which caused a great deal of upset. The people directly involved with him, his family etc. had enough faith to see them through this, but I just wonder if anyone had expected a miracle to happen and was disappointed, therefore losing faith. I know that my aunt, in a similar situation, was told by church people that if she prayed hard enough her husband would recover from his terminal cancer. When he died, she lost her faith also. I used to attend a group who were always praying for various people, or themselves, who were suffering in whatever way. When they were not made well, they had a crisis of faith, because one of the leaders of the group kept emphasising the bit in the Bible where it says (sorry I don't know the reference) He healed them all. Then they cite the bit where Jesus couldn't heal because he was in his home town and nobody believed in him. I can relate to that, because I think that when we're with our parents we're prevented somehow from doing all that we're meant to, as in we're in their shadow. But of course he isn't in that situation now - he has been raised from the dead and exalted and given the Name above all other names.
I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this. Still going along with the point I was trying to make earlier, I think. Prayer is not for us to ask God for stuff (although I do all the time). Should we pray for forgiveness for asking for the wrong things?
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Jude: my mother lost her keys and was told to pray to St Jude, the patron saint of the lost.
I pray to St. Anthony for this one.
St Anthony of Padua vs. St. Jude Thaddaeus, I suppose. And yes, LeRoc has made the traditional Catholic choice for lost things, whereas St Jude would be more for desperate situations / people in severe trouble. I guess sometimes the former would cause the latter...
I find it mildly ironic though that LeRoc would pray to St Anthony of Padua, also known as The Hammer of Heretics for his splendid work in (re-)converting the Cathari / Patareni and likely Albigenses... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: I find it mildly ironic though that LeRoc would pray to St Anthony of Padua, also known as The Hammer of Heretics for his splendid work in (re-)converting the Cathari / Patareni and likely Albigenses...
I hope he knocked off a couple of heads while doing so
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Why are so many prayers in the liturgy (my experience is in the DFMS PECUSA) phrased as requests? If God's ways are inscrutable and he's only going to answer our requests as he thinks best, and nothing to do with what we think we want, why do we bother asking him to do things in the liturgy? Or why are the prayers in church more efficacious than the everyday prayers us stupid selfish people normally utter? I don't mean the intercessions, I mean the prayers throughout the service which make requests. Like the prayer for inspiration of the Holy Spirit near the beginning, and the Eucharistic Prayer. And doesn't this set up an entire incorrect model that prayer is asking for things?
[ 19. October 2014, 05:53: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
I don't have much to share about prayer, but I think it was Emo Philips who devised a prayer for people of any faith and any denomination:
"Dear Lord,
Please break the laws of nature for my convenience."
Then again Emo Philips also stated that he used to pray every night as a kid for a new bicycle, until he finally realized the Lord in his wisdom does not work that way. So instead he just stole one and asked God to forgive him. And he got it!
Both are some of my favourite religious jokes. I am afraid that being something one might pray to St. Antony for, or possibly something St. Antony might hammer, I couldn't capture properly either my idea of God as expressed through the prayers or the rationale for my prayers. And yet I do pray, for both Hong Kong and keys, with about the same hit rate.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Again, deconstruct that, go for the metanarrative of that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Again, deconstruct that, go for the metanarrative of that.
If you were commenting on my post, I have little idea what you're trying to say. Would you mind helping me do whatever it is you're asking me to do?
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
I'm not quite sure what An Die Freude is trying to say here. I suspect it refers to the way that scientific law is aparently broken in order to make a miracle. Only it isn't. I believe that God made all the laws of science. Sometimes God's kingdom breaks into this world, as it did in Jesus's time with his healings and the Resurrection. God can break through even today, I believe.
I heard an excellent sermon on Sunday, regarding miraculous healings. The preacher referred to how in the RC church saints are declared as such only after a certain number of healings by them have been ascertained by the Pope. Then he spoke about how a Pentecostal minister he knew spoke of miraculous healings every week. He was rather sceptical of both situations and made the point that, when praying for the sick, he didn't actually know what to pray for.
So all we can do is pray that God's will be done.
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
I wasn't intending to mock anyone, more sharing anecdotes on the same theme (albeit perhaps tangential) - what prayer can be about.
I do think both of the jokes are funny because they reveal the way to some degree God can be limited by our prayers to little more than means to some nother end. Or rather, the way we make it so. I guess in that case the audacious prayer "Give me community with you" is one of few that makes God more than an end in itself. It is sadly though a prayer that I'd say is far from always answered. Of course, "Your will be done" is another one in the same vein - although we can note that in Gethsemane, Christ himself used it to qualify his own prayers for something particular...
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Thanks for the explanation, An die Freude. It is hard to tell what someone is saying from a joke.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
that's rich from someone who has a smiley cyclops for a signature ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
itsarumdo, the symbol balaam has in his sig is the Arabic letter nūn, which has - to cut a long story short - recently become a symbol for solidarity with Christians under threat in the Middle East.
Anyway, people, we seem to have negotiated the dangerous waters of misunderstanding to relatively benign shores. Let's take it from there...
IngoB
Kempistry Host
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
He was rather sceptical of both situations and made the point that, when praying for the sick, he didn't actually know what to pray for.
Maybe I missed something but at the risk of sounding snarky I think the sensible thing to do would be to pray that the person be healed of his or her sickness.
quote:
So all we can do is pray that God's will be done.
I think that God also expects us to pray for our needs. He instructs us to pray that "Thy will be done" but also "give us this day our daily bread", "forgive us our trespasses", "lead us not into temptation", and "deliver us from evil".
[ 23. October 2014, 02:38: Message edited by: Pancho ]
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jude: He was rather sceptical of both situations and made the point that, when praying for the sick, he didn't actually know what to pray for.
I normally pray asking God to be with them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
An die Freude. So THAT'S who Peter Kay got it from. My favourite Christian joke. As for Hong Kong and keys and the deconstruction thereof, well I just got a longing to run a B&B in Norfolk and I expressed that to God AND how absurd my expressing that to Him is as it is multiply impossible or infeasible or really not desirable as to how I'd come by the money (I'd rather my mother didn't die). As for lost keys, I've got that insanely desperate too and then called a locksmith or actually kicked the door in. True. As for Hong Kong, I SHOULD have prayed that no one on the demonstrators' side broke the peace and that the inscrutable authorities continued to be awesomely sensibly cunningly wisely non-violent too. As for IS ... not my counter really. A road to Damascus conversion for Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Al-Husseini Al-Qurashi?
I pray for wisdom, insight, headspace, courage, charity, understanding, submission. To find a way to pray with the marginal at our soup kitchen that doesn't hint at absurd miracles. A way to talk about Jesus with broken blokes. A way to discuss with less broken blokes and our house group how the church can be known for anything else apart from rites of passage and Sunday school on one Saturday a month for otherwise unchurched mums and kids aka Messy Church (which is nice).
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well, so much for good intentions. Irish Tony and I got told off for laughing like drains in our prayer group and I prayed for Anne-Marie that the Wi-Fi camera lost inside her would turn up! I thought God would be amused too!!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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