Thread: Doctor Who: The Eleventh Incarnation Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
As all other Who threads seem to have dropped off the bottom of the board, I thought I'd take the initiative ...

I need hardly tell fellow fans that in about four days, seven hours and fifty-three minutes, Matt Smith will make his (proper) debut as the Doctor in a story called The Eleventh Hour. There are snippets and previews of the coming series on the Dr Who BBC site, and on the Radio Times site, the TARDIS's makeover has been revealed.

(I think it looks stunning!)

[ 17. June 2016, 14:39: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
 

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Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :
 
I agree, it seems to link the style from the classic series with the current show. I'm really looking forward to it. My gut feeling is that he will be excellent in the role.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
But why did they have to clash it with our Easter Vigil? (Actually it's on before the Vigil, but we'll have to get to church during it!)

Obviously a reason to press for a dawn Vigil next year!

Carys
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
O no! I was checking about a BBC3 repeat for you, Carys, and it turns out I've got it all wrong! I thought it was 7pm on Saturday, but it's 6.20pm Saturday on BBC1, repeated at 7pm Sunday on BBC3.

And the opening episode is 65 minutes long!
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
and on the Radio Times site, the TARDIS's makeover has been revealed.

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Oh dear. The new Doctor's going to be travelling through time and space in some kind of intergalactic cocktail bar.
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
O no! I was checking about a BBC3 repeat for you, Carys, and it turns out I've got it all wrong! I thought it was 7pm on Saturday, but it's 6.20pm Saturday on BBC1, repeated at 7pm Sunday on BBC3.

And the opening episode is 65 minutes long!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Still clashes with my need to be in church by 7.15 on Holy Saturday to rehearse for the Vigil - will the vicar notice if one of his curates is 15 minutes late?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
and on the Radio Times site, the TARDIS's makeover has been revealed.

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Oh dear. The new Doctor's going to be travelling through time and space in some kind of intergalactic cocktail bar.

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quote:

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Originally posted by hereweare:
BBC iplayer is your friend!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
it's 6.20pm Saturday on BBC1, repeated at 7pm Sunday on BBC3.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The Radio Times season summary says of one episode: "It is now five years since Amy (new companion) first met the Doctor," which does sound intriguing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unda Maris:
I hear the next doctor will be Bruce Forsyth?

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quote:

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Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The Radio Times season summary says of one episode: "It is now five years since Amy (new companion) first met the Doctor," which does sound intriguing.

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Have you seen the clips they're showing on the Freeview Red Button? I think they and a little extrapolation answer what's happening there. If I'm right we'll know within the first 5 mins of the episode.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Very unsure about the new companion. I heard her interviewed and she came over as giggly and whiney (snip)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unda Maris:
I hear the next doctor will be Bruce Forsyth?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Esmeralda:

quote:

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Originally posted by Unda Maris:
I hear the next doctor will be Bruce Forsyth?

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No, the doctors are getting younger at such a rate that the next one will be in utero.

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That raises the question - where would he fit the Tardis? Or could he control it through the placenta and his mother? Pre-natal Time Lord behaviour: a Gallifreyan PhD thesis, perhaps that's how he came to be a Doctor?
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Esmeralda:

quote:

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Originally posted by Unda Maris:
I hear the next doctor will be Bruce Forsyth?

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No, the doctors are getting younger at such a rate that the next one will be in utero.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Folklore has it that there was a lot of disgruntled mumbling among some fans when "young" Tom Baker took over the role, and again when Peter Davison took over.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Badger Lady:
I didn't like:
- the theme tune and titles. What happened to the oooo-eeeee-ooooo?

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Yes, that was an integral part of it. IMO.

I dunno, the whole thing didn't really feel like Doctor Who, more like a sort of not particularly successful alternative version of it. Still, nice to see the stone angels will be back - I wonder if someone moved them!
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
I really, really loved it!

Tubbs
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
I thought it was very promising, and had no pangs of regret for the loss of DT. Matt Smith reminded me of the earliest Who incarnations, and makes a credible Doctor.

Amy seems a lively sort of girl, and I have no problems with her as the companion - as long as she doesn't start mooning over The Doctor.
I did wince a bit at the start, when I realised that Amelia was praying to Santa.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Meh, I'm not *quite* sure about some things. It went a bit 'monster of the day' towards the end, with yet another batch of spaceships hovering over London or Cardiff and the Doctor playing God in a manner more suited to Gandalf than, Jon Pertwee.

Sidekick not bad and I liked seeing herself from Peep Show up to know good. Oh, yes, and hooray for Sir Patrick and Mrs Meldrew.

Do I like the Mr Smith? No, not immediately, I don't. But early days - let's see him bed in...
 

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Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
I can't help thinking he looks a bit like Damian Thompson - it's a bit disturbing!
 

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Posted by markey (# 14847) on :
 
I agree with Badger Lady and I don't like the new music. Why they feel the need to mess about with the theme every season is beyond me.
However, the new Doctor seems fairly personable. He does look very young, but then 'my' Doctor was Patrick Troughton, so a lot of things are starting to look very young!!
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Well I enjoyed it, apart from the new theme tune. Clearly things are being set up for the finale already - the monster taunting the Doctor with not knowing what was causing the cracks was effective. And I can only presume that the references to "the Silence" means that the universe is in danger of being overrun by Cistercian monks.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Sshh! Spoilers
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I liked pretty much everything except the actual story! And the new theme tune. For me there were too many references to other stories going on for it to be really engaging. The stand-off between the Doctor and Prisoner Zero in the hospital was too much like Smith and Jones, and the Doctor scaring the alien away just because he's the Doctor was (a) too much like Forest of the Dead and (b) a very bad idea anyway. I really, really hope we don't see it again.

However, Matt Smith was fantastic, and so was Karen Gillan. Some of the one-liners were very good indeed ("You're Scottish - fry something." "I'm the Doctor, I'm worse than everybody's aunt." "Who da man?! ... Hm. Not going to say that again.").

Nice to see it set in a charming Gloucestershire village (filmed in Llandaff, horribly mispronounced by the narrator on Confidential - more phlegm, dear, more phlegm) instead of London or Cardiff.

All in all, good fun. Doctors' first stories are rarely among my favourites (not since Spearhead from Space anyway!), and this was okay story-wise and a chance for the new cast, crew (and TARDIS) to glitter a bit before really getting down to business.
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I don't know if you'd say this contains spoilers, but I'm saying
SPOILERS
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just in case!

I liked it very much apart from the new theme tune. I don't particularly find Amy a sympathetic character yet but with the plot one can understand why she's prickly. And as Mr D said, Donna was very unpleasant to begin with and I got to like her very much.

I really felt Matt Smith fitted the Doctor's shoes well and I think he will do me very nicely. (As a Doctor. For anything else my heart still belongs to DT!! )

All in all I thought it was most acceptable - and it had a definite Moffat-esqueness with the fearing what you see "from the corner of your eye".
 

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Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

Do I like the Mr Smith? No, not immediately, I don't. But early days - let's see him bed in...

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for a minute there, I though you had put the last 2 words the other way round
 

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Posted by Rock Pig (# 14503) on :
 
"not filmed in Cardiff, filmed in Llandaff"?



Last time I was there Llandaff was IN Cardiff.
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Enjoyed it. Watching again right now. However, atm, Matt Smith is delivering the lines EXACTLY as David Tennant would - hope he develops his own style as it goes on.

The episode trailer for the new series looks GREAT!

At least the theme tune is still recognizably *Diddly-Dum, Diddly-Dum, Whoooooo-Whooooooo*
 

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Posted by fluff (# 12871) on :
 
I did enjoy it.

The thing was so beautifully done. I Love the way the garden was filmed at the very beginning of the episode: all those dark shades; it's little touches like this that make the revived series so watchable I find. The visual flashback from the point of view of the Dr. And Matt Smith was excellent in the part. I hope it will be a great success.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:

The episode trailer for the new series looks GREAT!

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Except it had Daleks and Cybermen in it. They really need to give them a rest - Daleks for a year or two and Cybermen (along with the Master) for a lot longer than that. Lets have some new enemies for a change.

And the Awful Warnings ar e far too similar to the last few series. I hope they turn out to be empty threats, Macguffins at most, and the real plot turns out not to be about some Dark Magic from the Beginning of Time threatening the Existence of the Universe As We Know It. RTD did enough of those.

Though it was quite fun
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
The best episodes, like the stone angels and Midnight, tend to be outside the story arc.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
You know what was missing? Nobody got killed that we know of. There were a couple of times when the monster snarled threateningly at people, but it didn't actually ever do anything except change shape. And if the Doctor is yelling 'don't go in the room, don't look straight at the monster', it's a bit of a let down if all the monster then does is hiss a bit and then let the human run back out of the room.

It may have killed the doctor (small 'd') when it came out of the air vent, but it would seem more likely that it just put her into a coma.

If the monster had tried to pull a sympathy ploy when confronted instead of going all evil villain and twirling its metaphorical moustache I think we'd have been persuaded. Putting people in comas is bad, but not compared to blowing up an entire planet.

Otherwise, as said, Doctor promising, assistant not quite a proper character just yet, theme tune thumbs down.
 

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Posted by El Greco (# 9313) on :
 
I think the new doctor will be a success. While I didn't like his face, his acting was very Doctor-like. I loved the new companion. Think the story with her upcoming marriage might unfold nicely. Didn't notice the theme song changed. Enjoyed the fact the episode was long. It had some moments that could have been made really scary, but I guess they chose not to make it too dark. Did enjoy though the mystery around "Prisoner Zero" at the first half. The scenes from the upcoming episodes look interesting.
 

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Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
I liked it a lot, although I'm with Ken on daleks, cybermen and Big Warnings (also, I think we've had the assistant-gets-whisked-away-from-wedding scenario a bit too recently for a revival).
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
You know what was missing? Nobody got killed that we know of. There were a couple of times when the monster snarled threateningly at people, but it didn't actually ever do anything except change shape. And if the Doctor is yelling 'don't go in the room, don't look straight at the monster', it's a bit of a let down if all the monster then does is hiss a bit and then let the human run back out of the room.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rock Pig:
"not filmed in Cardiff, filmed in Llandaff"?



Last time I was there Llandaff was IN Cardiff.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
And there were a lot of Douglas Adams' ideas in there - he was a script writer long ago, so maybe doesn't need acknowledging, but even so...

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You mean, more so than Tennant's first episode, where the Doctor saved the world by drinking tea while wearing a dressing gown?
 

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Posted by Rock Pig (# 14503) on :
 
Fair point Carys, but it practical terms I'd not hold Westminster up as a separate place to London. When I lived in Cardiff, Llandaff was in it. Two guys who worked for me lived there, the buses were orange and didn't give change (like the rest of town), and there were other bits of Cardiff all around it.

By the way, anyone else recognise the green being used from the episode where the young boy ends up an old soldier at a remembrance ceremony?
 

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Posted by Unda Maris (# 4983) on :
 
Why is the Doctor's costume and hair modelled so strongly on Keith Floyd?

I rest my case!
 

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Posted by hereweare (# 15567) on :
 
Like RofS, I was a bit put off with the praying to Santa - what was SM trying to say? God can't be mentioned these days? Praying and believing in God is like believing in Santa? Or should I get out more????
Thanks for the welcome Z
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
We enjoyed it.

I thought the new music was a bit more "Woo-ooo-ooo"-ey than the previous but I don't know why they changed it.

Matt Smith does, in my opinion, already make a good Doctor. I thought David Tennant was great but I find I am not missing him.

The relationship forming between the Doctor and young Amelia was superb, being based on him understanding some of the frustrations of being a child. I almost hope that the little girl appears again because I thought the actress was very good in her subtle mannerisms. I am also looking forward to how he and Amy get on and how she forgives him for abandoning her twice. If she does.

We were a bit confused about the time: if the Tardis landed in Amelia's garden 12 years ago why did it fly past the Millenium Dome and the Wheel on the way?

I also didn't think much of the wedding dress and the warning at the end. It has been done before.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
Re: Praying to Santa. I don't know if it addresses it exactly but I like this quote from C.S. Lewis

quote:

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"There is a stage in a child's life when it cannot separate the religious from the merely festal aspect of Christmas or Easter. I have been told of a very small and very devout boy who was heard murmuring to himself on Easter morning a poem of his own composition which began ‘Chocolate eggs and Jesus risen.’ This seems to me, for his age, both admirable poetry and admirable piety. But of course the time will soon come when such a child can no longer effortlessly and spontaneously enjoy that unity. He will become able to distinguish the spiritual from the ritual and festal aspect of Easter; chocolate eggs will no longer seem sacramental. And once he has distinguished he must put one or the other first. If he puts the spiritual first he can still taste something of Easter in the chocolate eggs; if he puts the eggs first they will soon be no more than any other sweetmeat. They will have taken on an independent, and therefore a soon withering, life."

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
We were a bit confused about the time: if the Tardis landed in Amelia's garden 12 years ago why did it fly past the Millenium Dome and the Wheel on the way?

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Now if only the Tardis could travel in time, that'd explain it
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
I think most of the "new companion" stories are about someone happening to be in the right place at the right time. They don't have much impact on the plot because they have no clue at all about who the Doctor is and what he can do. They then tag along at the end of the episode and start to get more involved from then on, often making Noob mistakes in the first few stories.

If anything there was a connection between the Doctor and young Amelia right from when they first met and he actually came looking for her to take her away with him this time which was a bit different. I don't know if Prisoner Zero had realised this which is why he took her form.

The Tardis does travel through Time erratically only when it is actually travelling through it whereas the new Doctor's plummet to Earth seemed to be in Space only which is why I raised this point. A very minor issue which provoked an interesting discussion with the Roguelings so I am not complaining.
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Double post to say that I hope he managed to sort out his library from the invasion of the swimming pool. The thought of all those books ruined makes me cringe inwardly.
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
We were a bit confused about the time: if the Tardis landed in Amelia's garden 12 years ago why did it fly past the Millenium Dome and the Wheel on the way?

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The dome was completed and ready to go by the middle of 1999 so, while I don't remember exactly, it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility that the recognisable external shell may have been in place at some point in 1998.

As for the wheel, this didn't go up until 1999.

In any case, we're talking about a discrepancy of a few months at the most, which is only noticeable to us now in 2010. In future repeats of the series, I doubt the thought would even cross anybody's mind.
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 
If I may lower the tone for a moment...

A clerical colleague of mine made some very un-clerical comments about Karen Gillan (let's just say he may now be in trouble for 'coveting'). As for me, I will say only one thing - very nice legs! (My wife spotted the fact Amy couldn't really be a police officer because her skirt was too short - I had noticed how short, but brain hadn't really passed that point)

Needless to say, I may have failed the coveting test as well
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
(My wife spotted the fact Amy couldn't really be a police officer because her skirt was too short - I had noticed how short, but brain hadn't really passed that point)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
If I may lower the tone for a moment...

A clerical colleague of mine made some very un-clerical comments about Karen Gillan (let's just say he may now be in trouble for 'coveting'). As for me, I will say only one thing - very nice legs! (My wife spotted the fact Amy couldn't really be a police officer because her skirt was too short - I had noticed how short, but brain hadn't really passed that point)

Needless to say, I may have failed the coveting test as well

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quote:

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Except it had Daleks and Cybermen in it. They really need to give them a rest - Daleks for a year or two and Cybermen (along with the Master) for a lot longer than that. Lets have some new enemies for a change.

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Well, I'm excited that they're back, and like it or not, Daleks and Cybermen are part of the show - returning characters, as it were. They're iconic and popular, especially with children, so it makes sense to have them turn up regularly.

I don't think the problem has been with the amount the Daleks and Cybermen have been used, so much as the way they've been used. The problem is that they've tended to use them the same way each time - to have millions of them descending on the Earth in the finale only to be defeated by an unlikely reset button.

If they did something different with them each time, as with the single Dalek episode in Christopher Eccleston's series, or with the Daleks in 1930s New York with the Tenth Doctor and Martha, then that would be fine. There's nothing wrong with bringing them back - the writers just need to do something interesting with them.

The upcoming Dalek episode, Victory of the Daleks, already seems intriguing - from the trailer and previews, it seems that Churchill trying to use the Daleks to win World War 2, which is a great concept, full of irony. And the title suggests that this time, the Daleks might actually score a partial win against the Doctor, which would make a nice change.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I too figured out she wasn't a real police officer due to the short skirt and obligingly extreme-close-upped stockings. Funny how it seems to be mostly women who spotted this...
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:

We were a bit confused about the time: if the Tardis landed in Amelia's garden 12 years ago why did it fly past the Millenium Dome and the Wheel on the way?

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Can't remember the details because I've only watched it the once, but was there anything to indicate that the "now" as opposed to "12 years ago", was in fact 2010 rather than, say, 2011 or 2012?
 

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Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
I didn't see anything to indicate that 12 years later was now, so it could have been. The opening could have now and the main story 12 years from now, though I suspect technology would have moved on and Patrick Moore would have gone to the big observertory in the sky (at night?). Anyway good first episode. I to took to to Mr Smith almost imediatly. Lets see what happens.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
I don't see why there's such an argument about the dating when the Doctor can time travel!

The Tenth Doctor took off in the TARDIS at New Year's Day 2005 after seeing Rose, but Amy is clearly supposed to come from our present day, rather than 12 years in the future.

We hear the TARDIS materialisation sound when it crashes into her garden shed as a child. By far and away the most sensible explanation is that the crashing TARDIS also travelled back to 1996 or so. It's a time machine, it does that kind of thing.

[ 08. April 2010, 13:08: Message edited by: The Revolutionist ]
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
That was great.

'How did you know how it would react?' was the best bit.
If someone'd told me two seasons ago that the best bit in a Doctor Who script would be a heartwarming moment between the Doctor and companion I don't think I'd have believed them.

[ 10. April 2010, 18:09: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
By the way, it's probably too late to check, but during the upcoming series at the end of the first episode, did anyone else think they saw Alex Kingston? There was a stonehenge scene and at least one other I thought.

Just checked her entry on wikipedia. I did, I did, I did see Alex Kingston.

Another thought: the silence is about to escape.

[ 10. April 2010, 18:12: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 

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Posted by kankucho (# 14318) on :
 
Yes, I saw her. It seems young Matty is the future incarnation of the Doctor that her character originally fell for. You could see it coming surely? I mean, how long were they going to keep her on a retainer until they got round to revealing what they set up in that 'library' story?
 

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Posted by Off Centre View (# 4254) on :
 
Wonderful, really wonderful stuff - I'm understanding what Moffat means about it being a dark fairy tale, and the ending was really heartwarming stuff. This new era feels like a big thematic reboot of the show, which is just one thing that is great about the whole concept behind the show.

I like the new Doctor, and the sense of wonder, eccentricity and kindness comes across very strongly. Amy is a bright (and very cute) companion and I like their friendship, cleverly set as between a child and her imaginery friend grown up.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
This reminded me very much of an Ursula Le Guin short story - "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" - where the city is happy and prosperous, but that suffering depends on a child locked in a squalid basement being made to suffer. Citizens are told about this on coming of age and have the choice to stay and accept it as it is, and make their lives all the richer and more joyous, or leave. They don't refer to it if they stay, and no visitor to the city would guess it.

So perhaps that was why this didn't work particularly well for me: there seemed to be a lot of echoes of that in it.

Matt Smith seems to be shaping up nicely in the role so far and looking quite plausible. I'm less convinced about Karen Gillan - she seems pretty generic so far.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
I really enjoyed that - nicely strange and offbeat, reminiscent of The End of the World and Gridlock, but with plenty of echoes of classic Who as well. Cracking stuff.
 

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Posted by phil2357 (# 15431) on :
 
I thought tonight's episode was good, solid Who. That being said, if it is one of better episodes of the series then I will probably be disappointed with the series as a whole. If (as I hope) it is par for the course for the new series, then I will be one happy camper.

I liked the way the mystery developed. Also, the choice each voter was given was a great idea, and well-explored.

One complaint: the solution was a tad too mawkish for my taste, but maybe that's just me.

Overall 6.5/10
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
This reminded me very much of an Ursula Le Guin short story - "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"

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The Ones who Walk away from Omelas has echoes of The Karamazov Brothers in it. (Le Guin says its Henry James, because she doesn't like Dostoyevsky.) Really, if you take away all the Doctor Who scripts which have echoes of other sf, you're not left with a lot of Doctor Who. If you take away all the sf with echoes of other sf, you're not left with a lot of sf. (Including some of the best sf: The Book of the New Sun draws heavily on The Dying Earth books.)

I thought Karen Gillan was pretty good. The companion role is a bit hard to stand out in. (Even at the height of the Russell Davies years, the program was never called Rose Tyler.) She didn't stand out much last week, but she's clearly got the measure of the Doctor by this point. ('So you're just an observer and you don't interfere, unless there are children crying.') That's refreshing after the last few companions treating him as a cross between Prince Charming and God. And she can pick a padlock with a hairclip, which I think is a useful skill in a companion.
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I really liked it.

 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
I thought Karen Gillan was pretty good. The companion role is a bit hard to stand out in.

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True, although Leela, Sarah Jane, Peri, Adric, Donna and K9 managed to make an impact that has survived the test of time which I don't see Amy Pond doing.

It's true that almost all sci-fi writers build on each other's work to some extent and very little is truly original. And it is quite a challenge to write an entire series and keep both a pace going and be original and interesting. I quite enjoy seeing if I can spot possible origins that have sparked off the ideas for a particular episode; I just felt this one was a bit too close a parallel. It may be entirely coincidence, of course.

As for the series as a whole... I don't know. I know the series isn't intended at all for my demographic, but the magic that used to keep me watching just mostly isn't there any more. I probably still will watch it, but I no longer have great expectations of it.

Having said that, sometimes it can have some flashes of brilliance - "The Empty Child" and "Blink" were compelling. It's early days yet; let's see what else they come up with.
 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
Daughter thinks that recurrent themes (the crack in the universe and zero) point to something to do with the void. Not sure about that but zero did come up in last night's episode, so maybe there is something in it.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
I wanted to like it more than I did. There were some good things - the Smilers and the Winders (?), Liz10 with lines like "I'm your bloody queen mate!", Matt Smith continues to impress. I liked his "No-one human gets to talk to me" moment.

But its big weakness was that it lacked logic.

So a kid scores 0 in a test and refuses to take the stairs - you're going to feed him to "the beast below"? I mean if this is something Liz10 and her government reluctantly decided to do then surely you'd have to go a long way down the spacewhale-food list before you get to naughty school kids?

I'm also not sure about Amy warning herself to try to get the Doctor to leave. I assumed at the time that this was a message from the future, but it appears that what it was was a message she'd left after having seen the film but before pressing the forget button. Doesn't it rather defeat the object of having a forget button if there's a way of leaving messages?

Also she - correctly as it turns out - guesses that the spacewhale is "kind". But even if she was sure it was kind originally wasn't it a bit of a gamble to assume that after 250years of continuous torture it wouldn't harm them?

Plus how did Amy know what the "abdicate" button did? Maybe it released the whale by allowing the rest of the ship to float off into space? Maybe it killed Liz10 and replaced her with a compliant android?

When the Doctor makes what looks like a huge leap and guesses correctly you assume that's partly because he's fantastically more intelligent than we are and has far more background knowledge to draw on. But when Amy Pond - an ordinary human, even if a smart one - does the same, it looks like dumb luck and a dangerous propensity for risk-taking. Maybe we're meant to think that.

Still apart from that it was quite good - but just not as good as I'd hoped.
 

---

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
True, although Leela, Sarah Jane, Peri, Adric, Donna and K9 managed to make an impact that has survived the test of time which I don't see Amy Pond doing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stoo:
What does the whale eat now, now they are not feeding it people?

[*eat*, not *it*]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stoo:
What does the whale eat now, now they are not feeding it people?

---

If it isn't eating spacekrill or spaceplankton, it's probably Soylent Green...

Coming soon to a cinema near you - "The People-Eating Whale From Outer Space"
 

---

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :
 
Good episode.

Enjoying the series. The whole greek/my(psi)thic theme is strong with the link to pandoras(icas) box. This week we had a world on a turtle!

Agree lots of things didn't 'add up'. To be honest being a hard sci-fi buff I tend to suspend disbelief for Dr. Who.

'0' returns, not in sending a message but speaking of the evil of child sacrifice. Humanity seems unaware of what is dangerous and what is helpful, what is right or wrong. Perhaps to be explored further next week? Maybe this will be a theme in the series?

And yes the crack. Only saw it once this week, rather than the wall, and a couple of times in the tardis last week. Any more spottings?

No Psi spottings this week?
 

---

Posted by Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :
 
Did anyone see Dr Who Confidential?

Steven Moffat was talking about casting Karen Millan in the role and said "And I thought, well she's really good. It's just a shame she's so wee and dumpy."

Then said "When she was about to come through to the auditions I nipped out for a minute and I saw Karen walking on the corridor towards me and I realised she was 5'11, slim and gorgeous and I thought 'Oh, oh that'll probably work.'"

I'm sorry but I fail to understand what looks have to do with casting the role of either the Doctor or his assistant

It's put me right off the new series - though I'll still watch it as it IS Dr Who
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
... I suspect technology would have moved on and Patrick Moore would have gone to the big observertory in the sky (at night?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stoo:
What does the whale eat now, now they are not feeding it people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stoo:
What does the whale eat now, now they are not feeding it people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edward Green:
The whole greek/my(psi)thic theme is strong with the link to pandoras(icas) box. This week we had a world on a turtle!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I thought Karen Gillan was pretty good. The companion role is a bit hard to stand out in.

---

True, although Leela, Sarah Jane, Peri, Adric, Donna and K9 managed to make an impact that has survived the test of time which I don't see Amy Pond doing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
Was anyone else reminded by the Star Whale, of the giant creature that was being kept for meat in an early Torchwood episode?

---

quote:

---

[...] Not only have the Bandi been holding the being against its will, but they have used its energy source, which converts energy into matter, to create the Farpoint station and its magical qualities. [...] (From: here)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
... the 'spaceship aka giant alien creature' theme is a recurrent theme in Star Trek TNG.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
[...] one of the many things I liked about The Beast Below was the rather subversive political streak. [...]

---

Having stumbled upon a certain Hell thread of no-namian provinence, I've now read this as 'The Breast Below'

But please carry on.
 

---

Posted by hereweare (# 15567) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
If I may lower the tone for a moment...

A clerical colleague of mine made some very un-clerical comments about Karen Gillan (let's just say he may now be in trouble for 'coveting'). As for me, I will say only one thing - very nice legs! (My wife spotted the fact Amy couldn't really be a police officer because her skirt was too short - I had noticed how short, but brain hadn't really passed that point)

Needless to say, I may have failed the coveting test as well

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Fantastic.

Whales!

In space!

The only sad thing being that there is only one left... surely we need a whole school of them to turn up unexpectedly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Fantastic.

Whales!

In space!

The only sad thing being that there is only one left... surely we need a whole school of them to turn up unexpectedly.

And no, it didn't make a whole amount of sense when you thought about it. All over the place really, but no matter. All the individual bits of were so good that I think we can overlook it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Fantastic.

Whales!

In space!

The only sad thing being that there is only one left... surely we need a whole school of them to turn up unexpectedly.

---

Sorry, a bit trigger happy there

Haven't you ever seen Farscape then? That 'verse has a whole race of sentient whale-like spaceships.

[small code fix]

[ 15. April 2010, 19:28: Message edited by: jedijudy ]
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Actually, never mind the Trekking and Farscaping and all that... reality is way ahead of them. Now I think of it, space-ships in real life are still lubricated with whale oil which NASA hastily stock-piled before commercial whaling was banned. Seems it's perfect for working under very different temperatures.

Yeah, even the Voyager with its lovely humpback song.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by hereweare:
all this whale business is a bit Star Trekish is it not?

---

Yes, I was reminded of Star Trek IV too.
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Oh, how I would have loved the Doctor to say

"It is not the hell your Star Whale."

 

---

Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
But, since it came back, doesn't Dr Who often reference other Sci-fi?

J
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quinine:
Yes! Can they have a major part in the final episode please? And surely we can have some star whale back story at some point - how did they die out? Etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PhilA:
Mad scientist type bloke. Ends up wearing a black glove. Created the Daleks. Davros anyone?

---

Same though flitted across my mind. Although I can't imagine Davros falling in love with anyone called Dorabella...


I was a bit underwhelmed by it overall. Whilst I loved some of it (Spitfires in space!!! Winston Churchill saying 'buggering' on tea time telly!!), the plotting was very unconvincing. I accept it is a show about a time traveling bloke but I do like some attempt at internal plausability.
 

---

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
yes, a bit rubbish.
*
*
*
*
*
*
* and is Amy going to save the doctor from his silly mistake/conclusion every week??
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Marginally more interesting than last week and about as plausible as usual. Looking forward to next week - I liked the stone angels.

Tonight's episode would have suited Tennant better, though. I don't know what Matt Smith's style is. He seems to be trying to emulate Tennant without quite succeeding or developing his own style.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Yes! Even though I wanted them to leave the Saleks on the shelf for another year or so this was convincing Doctor Who. The boy done good.

Utter fanboy episode! Overcomplex Dalek plannned destruction in thirty Rels!! Positronic brains!!! The Earth dies screaming!!!!

And then, out of the shiny thing in the shiny Dalek flying saucer (that looks like the shiny thing in the shiny Dalek base on Skaro we first saw the Emperor Dalek in back in the Troughton era) comes a whole squadron of colour-coded Daleks straight out of the lost episodes of the 1960s (where to be honest the Beeb only used them because they could rent them cheap from the people who made the Cushing fims) and the Dalek Supreme itself, all the way from the war between the Imperial Daleks and the "rebels" (if not from "The Dalek's Master Plan") and they are declaiming what sound to me very like the names of old Dalek series! Return of the Daleks! Resurrection of the Daleks! Power of the Daleks! Revelation of the Daleks!

What next, the return of Mavic Chen and the Meddling Monk? Or even Professor Maxtable (please! I think that might have been the best Doctor Who story ever)

REBOOT CONTINUITY BACK TO THE SIXTIES!
 

---

Posted by phil2357 (# 15431) on :
 
Not an amazing episode, but not a bad one either. I thought the spitfires in space required a little too much suspension of disbelief. I liked the setup of the Doctor's dilemma, though. I guess they feel they have to reboot the Daleks and Cybermen for the Matt Smith era, but it would be nice to have next series free of them. Make the Doctor visit crazy new worlds with new, interesting aliens instead.

Is it just me, or is Amy Pond a bit too confident for someone who is learning what it is like to travel with the Doctor?
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Daleks not Saleks. Missed the edit window.

No, no Davros I suspect. Messrs Gatiss and Moffat have rebooted the continuity to back before Terry Nation and Philip Hinchcliffe rebooted continuity in the 1970s with Davros.

There have been arguably somewhere between four and eight alternate versions of Dalek history set up by either Timelords or Daleks going back into the past and changing history:

1) the original Skaro Daleks of the very first story. No command heirarchy, trapped in a city on Skaro, ignorant of their own history.

2) the classic series space-opera style Daleks from the 1960s and early 1970s with either a Dalek Supreme or an Emperor ruling them at different times. These were the Daleks finally destroyed in the far future in a civil war sparked off by Troughton's Doctor. (Pertwee's enounters with Daleks were all in the past relative to that)

3) the Davros Daleks of the late 1970s and the 1980s, who ended up in a war against the "renegades" who were in effect the previous version of the Daleks and were the pure-blooded Daleks unlike Davros's synthetic Imperials. These Daleks were destroyed in the Time War in the last Dalek story of the McCoy tenure. The first Dalek of the Ecclestone period is in some way a survivor of that war, though apparenlty a lete-model enhanced Dalek of some sort, not a standard Dalek drone.

4,5,6) The various Daleks of the new series are descended from survivors of the Time War in different pocket universes (Imperial Daleks, Cult of Skaro, rescued Davros) who go back in time and reinvent themselves and rebuild the entire species.

7) This evenings first Daleks were presumably, like Ecclestone's Dalek in "Dalek" survivors of the Time War. But the new ones are back to the future - they are old pre-Davros Daleks, pure Kaled descent, all the way from Skaro. These Daleks have no Davros in their past and no Time War (though they may well have learned about those things of course)

(Of course Skaro itself probably started as a human colony...)
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
Bluffing the daleks with a jammy dodger is classic Doctor behaviour. But surely there is only so often that even the Doctor can get away with that before his enemies cotton on.

Stopping an AI bomb by telling it to think about what it's like to be in love: I think it's clear that Doctor Who has entirely given up on any pretence at being hard sf. But then I'm not sure it ever really had any. Incidentally, I don't think Amy was correcting the Doctor's mistake this time: she saw what the Doctor was trying to do and joined in.
 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
ken: I am in total awe of your knowledge.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Bluffing the daleks with a jammy dodger is classic Doctor behaviour.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
Spoiler


not impressed with this one; clever SF tricks in a SF world is fine but manufactering modifications to spitfires and reach target in plot limit of 10 minutes....

Not to mention Doc's long chats with Daleks instead of them just shooting him

Next weeks trailer more promising...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by phil2357:
Is it just me, or is Amy Pond a bit too confident for someone who is learning what it is like to travel with the Doctor?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dyfrig:
...and we seemed to have rushed so quickly into the story that..]

---

I thought it was a bit hurried as well, there was almost enough for a whole story arc.
The Nazi's
The secret weapon being a Dalek
The Dalek's reveal their secret weapon
The Dalek's and Doctor stand off till New Daleks
The reaction of the impure
The spitfire
The Doctor's decision
The Doctor's choice
Britain left with modern tech
Resolution
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
I’m beginning to feel nostalgic for the days when the BBC could only use the Daleks with permission of the Terry Nation estate. And the estate would only let them do it every few seasons. I am officially all Daleked out! New monsters please! Or different old ones.

That said, returning the Daleks to Year Zero – pure Kaleds from Skaro – is an interesting development and it’ll be interesting to see where they go with it. Not being as big a fangirl as Ken is a fanboy, all I noticed is that they looked like the 60’s daleks from the Cushing film and sounded like them as well! The original dalek voices were much deeper. The film says the Kaleds were originally humanoid – like their enemies the Thals – but evolved into the dalek form. (All you see of that is a green clawed hand appearing from underneath a Thal cape when the Doctor and the others captured a dalek and stole its outfit in order to escape from their HQ).

Lots of good ideas and themes and some really nice touches – the Jammy Dodger; Amy realising that memories of a lost love are likely to be more powerful / humanising than ones of war and death - but I’m not entirely sure that Gatiss was able to deliver on them.

I like Matt Smith’s take on the Doctor and think Gillian / Amy is a very good foil. But please not the Doctor and Rose all over again. (I’ve seen those pictures on the Interweb!) And the crack does look a bit like Bad Wolf all over again.

Next week’s episode looks like it’s going to be a good one. Unless we’ve seen all the good bits in the preview.

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Did they actually say 'Year Zero' at any point?

Because there are theories around about Zero. We've had Prisoner Zero, and the kid who got zero on the test (and, I guess, Liz 10).
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Did they actually say 'Year Zero' at any point?

Because there are theories around about Zero. We've had Prisoner Zero, and the kid who got zero on the test (and, I guess, Liz 10).

---

Nope, I think that was me.

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Some random thoughts:

The very first time the Doctor met the Daleks the Thals and the Daleks had both mutated but because the Daleks shut themselves up in the City they stopped mutating whereas the Thals kept on going and ended up going full cycle to where they started. Not sure where that fits into the theories mentioned above.

There is an interesting cross-over between the new different coloured Daleks and Original Star Trek. Each colour has a different function so the red ones should avoid going on any planetary missions.

And there was a blatant bit of advertising at the end when Amy shouted "Oi! Churchill!"

Not the greatest episode although Spitfires in space was a great concept, albeit totally improbable given the time scales, especially when you see how easily the pilots adapted. Mind you, they were British pilots ....

It is time we saw less of the Daleks: There is a whole Universe full of beasties out there.

It does seem odd that the time line of the Doctor follows that of the Daleks. If both have time travelling capabilities you would expect that sometimes encounter A happened earlier than encounter B for the Doctor but later for the Daleks.
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
And there was a blatant bit of advertising at the end when Amy shouted "Oi! Churchill!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
Some random thoughts:

The very first time the Doctor met the Daleks the Thals and the Daleks had both mutated but because the Daleks shut themselves up in the City they stopped mutating whereas the Thals kept on going and ended up going full cycle to where they started. Not sure where that fits into the theories mentioned above.

There is an interesting cross-over between the new different coloured Daleks and Original Star Trek. Each colour has a different function so the red ones should avoid going on any planetary missions.

And there was a blatant bit of advertising at the end when Amy shouted "Oi! Churchill!"

Not the greatest episode although Spitfires in space was a great concept, albeit totally improbable given the time scales, especially when you see how easily the pilots adapted. Mind you, they were British pilots ....

It is time we saw less of the Daleks: There is a whole Universe full of beasties out there.

It does seem odd that the time line of the Doctor follows that of the Daleks. If both have time travelling capabilities you would expect that sometimes encounter A happened earlier than encounter B for the Doctor but later for the Daleks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
[...] Loved the Star Trek cross reference. Did the red dalek say anything? If it didn't, then that confirms it's doomed!

Tubbs

---

You can check by watching again on iPlayer. Nudge nudge.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Forgot the bit about the evolution. But you're right, the Thals hadn't seen the Kaleds for years so their reappearence as the little pepperpots was a total shock! (I have no idea how the film differs from the orginal episodes though. Does anyone know?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Forgot the bit about the evolution. But you're right, the Thals hadn't seen the Kaleds for years so their reappearence as the little pepperpots was a total shock! (I have no idea how the film differs from the orginal episodes though. Does anyone know?)

---

The Peter Cushing (and Bernard Cribbins!) film followed the plot of the William Hartnell episodes pretty closely, I think. I was certainly thinking about the latter.

---

The only person I know who's seen both thought so as well. As if "I was seven" is any excuse for not remembering much!

Tubbs

[ 21. April 2010, 21:41: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

---

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :
 
As far as I can pick up The Daleks, The Time Lords and Humans are all somehow connected in the overall 'time and space' thingie of Dr. Who.

In that universe so much has been messed about with that it is very hard to put together a timeline. The Dalek's have two different origins for a start.
 

---

Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
During Tom Baker's time in the Tardis he is asked by the Time Lords to go back and prevent the Daleks from existing. He has to make a choice to kill them off or not and goes for not. Quite a lot of the Dalek history comes from this story and not the William Hartnell/film versions. The old films are seen as paralell to the cannon and not part of it. The TV film is seen as cannon because Sylvester Macoy regenerates into Paul Magan. A lot of fans wish this wasn't the case as the TV film is second rate and being American, some of the essential Britishness of Doctor Who is lost.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
I am heartened to know that there are others who agree with me in seeing the TV film as non-canonical. Recently I was running through the list of Doctors in my mind, and was frustrated at being one short. Finally I discovered I had ommitted Paul McGann, because he just doesn't count as a Doctor IMNSVHO. (However, there was one good moment when a motorbike drove into the Tradis, and then came roaring out again.)
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Actually, although the TV film was pretty awful, McGann has gone on to do loads of audio adventures and really developed the character.
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I am heartened to know that there are others who agree with me in seeing the TV film as non-canonical. Recently I was running through the list of Doctors in my mind, and was frustrated at being one short. Finally I discovered I had ommitted Paul McGann, because he just doesn't count as a Doctor IMNSVHO. (However, there was one good moment when a motorbike drove into the Tradis, and then came roaring out again.)

---

The TV film counts as a cannon as it was a BBC co-production and McCoy regerates into McGann. It wasn't McGann's fault that the pilot was so rubbish it was never commissioned into a series and he became the George Lazenby of Time Lords. As Gill H points out, the character appeared / developed in the the Big Finish adventures and the books - but only the truely dedicated have seen those. (I am not truely dedicated!)

[ETA: What I'm not sure about is whether some of the ideas introduced in the show are seen as cannon - such as the Doctor being half human on his mother's side. RTA's final show suggests that they aren't]

Wiki has a great list of actors who've played the Doctor in material that's not seen as cannon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_actors_who_have_played_the_Doctor

Tubbs

[ 23. April 2010, 11:24: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
Problem with Wiki is that you keep rummaging. They also have a list of actors who were considered for the Doctor or were offered the part and turned it down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_actors_considered_for_the_part_of_the_Doctor

Some of them could have been great, but some of them ...

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Hugh Grant as Doctor Who?

"I - I - er - Daleks. Yes. Yes, of course. Um. Awfully sorry about your planet. Hope you'll soon find another. Must dash. Aaargh, why did I just say that?"
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Hugh Grant as Doctor Who?

"I - I - er - Daleks. Yes. Yes, of course. Um. Awfully sorry about your planet. Hope you'll soon find another. Must dash. Aaargh, why did I just say that?"

---

He was one of the people covered by It would have been wrong! (I'd have probably still watched it though ).

Shame about Robert Lindsay though ...

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
We here are just about to see the second show tomorrow but I don't mind reading the spoilers as I'm not a expecting much good out of all this.

Was hoping for a non-angst experience, but the ending of the first episode on her wedding dress left me cold.

I prefer my doctors adventurous and my assistants following along and their group adventures adventurous. If I wanted super hero angst, I'd put Spiderman in the DVD player.

Yes...he's alone. We get it. Time to move on.

Moffat is a better writer then Russel T Davies( he who channels episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer gleefully it seems), and there are some great lines. But I fear it will all end with sooooo much overwrought goo....again.

As for what Moffat said about the actress companion, not surprising given they seem to think of the companions as romance novel characters.


Better then much on TV but not as good as it has been or could be.

[ 24. April 2010, 05:23: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
 

---

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
spoiler


soldier introducing himself as bishop with clerics under his command??? bit crusaderish??

see what they do with that
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
I've complained to the BBC regarding the ludicrous and intrusive insertion of an animated "coming next" overlay right at the climax of today's episode.

The URL is here.

I'm really quite cross!
 

---

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
I've just been catching up with the episodes (I have a rather wonderful boyfriend who taped them for me while I was TV-less).
Liked the first episode. I thought Matt Smith did well - liked the way he called the Atraxi back to tell them off, and the bit where all the previous faces of the Doctor appeared.

And about half way through the Space Whale one, I thought "This is a bit 'The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas', isn't it?" Except that the people in the Ursula le Guin story didn't get eaten by a space whale when they protested.
And when the Doctor said "We are observers only," I actually shouted "You liar!" at the screen.

So tonight I'm watching the Daleks one (rather looking forward to Spitfires in Space).
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Loved the beginning - nice and Bond-ish. The two-parters always seem to be better than the single episodes. Great to see the stone angels and River Song back too, next week should be fun.

The only thing I didn't like was Amy getting jealous over River. It's too early in the season for this and we've had enough female companions getting emotionally involved.

[ 24. April 2010, 18:43: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
Wow. Weeping angels and River Song!

Though bits were too similar to the library -- enemy for whom dark is a an advantage and so has to be light.

Now to wait for a week.

Carys
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
The only thing I didn't like was Amy getting jealous over River. It's too early in the season for this and we've had enough female companions getting emotionally involved.

---

Was Amy getting jealous over River? I got the opposite impression: I thought she was finding the whole situation amusing. IIRC River told her that the relationship was not as simple as them being married, and Amy said that it so was.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I watched Blink for the first time (on DVD) this afternoon, in time for this week's episode. I hadn't realised that the famous Sally Sparrow was played by Carey Mulligan (who has since gone on to great things).

Tonight's episode changed the rules on the Angels a couple of times. (One of the rule changes has implications that I would hope most younger viewers do not think of...)
 

---

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
As soon as the Doctor mentioned the fact that the deceased race who built the temple had two heads, we wondered why the statues didn't.

Father, who is a vicar, loved the Bishop with his twenty clerics and verger in charge of explosives. Really tickled his funny bone.
 

---

Posted by Mr Clingford (# 7961) on :
 
Where was the Holy Handgrenade of Antioch?

Much better pacing this week. Quite enjoyed it. A bit of atmosphere. Annoyed by the banner trailer too near the end. Looking forward to next week.
 

---

Posted by Off Centre View (# 4254) on :
 
Spoilers...


Really enjoyable episode.

I wasn't too taken with the Weeping Angels at first, as I'd kind of found them a bit odd, though genuinely scary, in "Blink". Giving them the voice of Bob made them more terrifying as they appear to be a thinking, manipulative enemy not just feral creatures.

It's fun having River back as well and it makes me think there's more a mystery there than simply her being his wife. It's definitely interesting that she means that the Doctor doesn't know everything, and so another character can one-up him.

The Church militant thing was interesting but just seemed to be a bit of a side joke without really being explained, or to make comments about faith. However, the idea of the Church having a team of monster hunters is often explored in fiction, though I think it's the first time in Doctor Who. (And the comments about the church being critical of self-marriage seemed to be making fun of RTD's often-maligned gay references that sometimes seemed to be designed to provoke rather than push forward characters or plot - although on that note, there were no Scottish references tonight!)

Looking forward to next week, the Doctor's speech about not putting him in a trap was fantastic!
 

---

Posted by Rockhound (# 13407) on :
 
Spoilers <not sure how this works in this forum>

Both me & other half were annoyed at the on-screen graphic. Have fired off strongly worded missive to Aunty Beeb via the online complaints form.

I agree, I didn't think Amy was jealous. I was a bit worried we'd have another gooey-eyed companion, but she seems to be able to hold her own, and didn't come across as 'threatened' by River.

Liked the Bishop, esp. that the Verger appeared to be in charge of the explosives!

Looking forward to next week

Saw the second half of confidential - Loved that it was filmed in the Clearwell Caves (Forest of Dean) haven't been there in years


(edited for brain fade and spelling)

[ 24. April 2010, 22:21: Message edited by: Rockhound ]
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
"Bishop, lock and load!"

How long before someone has that sig on the Ship?

I didn't find the Angels as scary this time, partly because it's not our world (despite looking suspiciously like Llantwit beach at times, yes?) and so there isn't that creepy thing of the familiar being scary.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
By the way - later on in 'Over The Rainbow', Graham Norton mentioned that the girls would need to cope with dialects.

Was I the only one who thought he said 'cope with Daleks'?

If so, then maybe that irritating 'coming next' graphic was all part of the story arc. Graham Norton breaks through the crack in time...!
 

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Posted by Giac (# 15580) on :
 
Spoilers

nice episode, the best yet in my opinion. The speach at the end was very good, with the music adding the right amount of atmosphere. Spent half the time wondering if there were going to be any more hell calls over this series's approach to the church and if Moffat is a lurker in Hell. Either that or the end of the series is going to be fought out in a church.
Which might be kinda cool.
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Agree with Gill H - the Angels weren't as scary as original time out. Interesting that River Song first turned up in the Library episode which was also to do with "Orrible Fings Wot Happens In Teh Dark* - and the hint from The Bishop that she might be some kind of double-agent.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Hmm, I'm going against the flow here in saying was wasn't impressed with last night's episode. In fact, I'm now prepared to say that I'm finding this series a bit of a disappointment (I'll still watch it, of course) - somehow it's all too frentic, too much rushing about and not enough characterisation.

Speaking of which, I felt there was a major inconsistency with Amy. We are still early in her history with the Doctor (the fact that she can say, "You promised me a planet," shows there hasn't been lots of stuff happening that we haven't seen) yet she kept saying, "You never do X," or, "You would never do Y". How does she know?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
In fact, I'm now prepared to say that I'm finding this series a bit of a disappointment (I'll still watch it, of course) - somehow it's all too frentic, too much rushing about and not enough characterisation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jahlove:
Agree with Gill H - the Angels weren't as scary as original time out. Interesting that River Song first turned up in the Library episode which was also to do with "Orrible Fings Wot Happens In Teh Dark* - and the hint from The Bishop that she might be some kind of double-agent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pheonix:
Surely in a cave with that many angels in it with any light at all they'd all be locked solid rather than able to move as it seems like they can...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dormouse:
I'm not sure I understand. Can you explain? Probably I'm just being fick.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dormouse:
I'm not sure I understand. Can you explain? Probably I'm just being fick.

---

One of the rule changes is that an angel can now get through any television set that's showing it. You're watching it on a television set. Don't look away.
Perhaps that's too obvious to spell out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by welsh dragon:
What is TWAITW and who is Nathaniel? (out of touch)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by welsh dragon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dormouse:
I'm not sure I understand. Can you explain? Probably I'm just being fick.

---

One of the rule changes is that an angel can now get through any television set that's showing it. You're watching it on a television set. Don't look away.
Perhaps that's too obvious to spell out.

---

It didn't occur to me when watching, I'm afraid.

---

Didn't occur to me either, but now you mention it ...
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:


When the dialogue began and with the church newly introduced I saw a resonance with John 2
"Nazareth" explained Nathanael "Can anything good come from Nazareth?"
"Come and see for yourself" said Philip.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by welsh dragon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dormouse:
I'm not sure I understand. Can you explain? Probably I'm just being fick.

---

One of the rule changes is that an angel can now get through any television set that's showing it. You're watching it on a television set. Don't look away.
Perhaps that's too obvious to spell out.

---

It didn't occur to me when watching, I'm afraid.

---

Didn't occur to me either, but now you mention it ...

---

SNAP!
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
Sorry for the double post. From the tasters for next week's episode, it looked as though the opposite of "Don't even blink!" occurs for Amy, and she can't look at the angels...or even open her eyes...
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
Well, having watched the opening episode live with family, and the next 3 almost back-to-back from recordings on my return to civilisation, I'm fairly impressed. I couldn't easily imagine Matt Smith as the Doctor, because I was visualising DT, but I really like what he's doing with it, emphasising his egotism and stuffy cantankerousness. Yes, there are plot holes and unexplained elements and all that sort of thing, but it's easily living up to the mark set by previous series.

Shhhh! SPOILERS


I enjoyed the Smilers and Winders and all that stuff in The Beast Below, which could have come straight out of Classic Who, but had a modern twist in the plot. The basic concept behind the story was reminiscent of any number of plots from other series (Torchwood being the obvious one, as mentioned above), but in a sense that didn't matter, because it was such a late reveal, and the real story, IMO, was in the way ordinary people can do terrible things because they don't have the courage to do anything else. The precise detail of the terrible thing they were doing was secondary. Liz 10's discovery wasn't surprising, but it was still poignant.

Victory of the Daleks seemed like an interesting concept, and it worked in a way, but ultimately, it felt like a device for rebooting Dalek history for what feels like the 15th time but mainly creating a whole series of "new design" collect-em-all Dalek figures to flog to impressionable kiddies. There was lots that didn't work very well, and the Spitfires in space were ridiculous.

The Time of Angels was interesting. I was worried about Moffat digging up the Weeping Angels again so early, and wasn't sure it would live up to the high standard set by Blink, even though (or possibly because) Blink had been a cheap filler episode. However, I was pleasantly surprised. The set-up was nicely done, although the "Redshirts" were rather obvious, River Song provided enough plot and interest to cover an episode of lots of things not moving, and the reveal was cracking.

The Angels' use of Scared Bob to communicate was a nice idea, especially as he was passing on his sinister message so they still didn't speak themselves which could have shattered the aura, but it seemed a bit too similar to the spookiness of the voice recordings in Silence in the Library. I hope Moffat has still got some new ideas. I was also a little disappointed that more wasn't made of the difference between Matt Smith and DT, and the way different regenerations, with different characters, presumably relate to River Song quite differently. That said, I wouldn't be upset if they decided to kill her off and break the timelines rather than constantly try to shoehorn her (with attendant timey-wimeyness) into stories.

I quite like Amy. She seems rather sure of herself, but that's a welcome change from the constant "visit the family" storylines, and it's plausible for her character. After all, she's "known" this strange man for most of her life, suffered enormous disappointment and a lot of therapy when he vanished, and is still (I think) quite angry with him about that, although that seems to be softening as she learns more about him and how scary the universe can be. She should be a good foil for his arrogance.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Much stronger episode than 'Victory of the Daleks' IMO. For one thing, it was scary, and that for me at least is one of the essential ingredients of Who.
 

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Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Hugh Grant as Doctor Who?

"I - I - er - Daleks. Yes. Yes, of course. Um. Awfully sorry about your planet. Hope you'll soon find another. Must dash. Aaargh, why did I just say that?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I've complained to the BBC regarding the ludicrous and intrusive insertion of an animated "coming next" overlay right at the climax of today's episode.

The URL is here.

I'm really quite cross!

---

The BBC have now put their hands up and apologised.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8643684.stm
 

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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
As they bloody well should. Muppets.

As someone else pointed out, if we want to know what's on next, we can use the on-screen guide, avail ourselves of the internet, or use one of those new-fangled listings magazines. We don't need animated Graham Nortons.

In fact, I can't see any situation that would warrant an animated Graham Norton except as a sign of the impending apocalypse.
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
SPOILER

Does anyone have any thoughts on Amy not remembering the Daleks?

M.

[ 26. April 2010, 20:08: Message edited by: M. ]
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As they bloody well should. Muppets.

As someone else pointed out, if we want to know what's on next, we can use the on-screen guide, avail ourselves of the internet, or use one of those new-fangled listings magazines. We don't need animated Graham Nortons.

In fact, I can't see any situation that would warrant an animated Graham Norton except as a sign of the impending apocalypse.

---

Virgin One do it too, on their afternoon reruns of Star Trek/Voyager/DS9, with their little red mascot scampering across the bottom of the screen.


 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
SPOILER

Does anyone have any thoughts on Amy not remembering the Daleks?

---

I thought it was linked in some way to the crack (in space/time?)
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
tessaB, that was what I came up with too. I nearly put it in my post, but thought others might have different ideas. It's a good incident - I hope we'll hear more of it over the next episodes.

M.
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
I took it to mean that by some timey-wimey means Amy had come across the Daleks prior to the war-time adventure - and that we would be seeing her in conflict with them in a future episode.

As one who finds Daleks supremely boring I am decidedly cast down by the prospect
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
and that we would be seeing her in conflict with them in a future episode.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I took it to mean that by some timey-wimey means Amy had come across the Daleks prior to the war-time adventure - and that we would be seeing her in conflict with them in a future episode.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I took it to mean that by some timey-wimey means Amy had come across the Daleks prior to the war-time adventure - and that we would be seeing her in conflict with them in a future episode.

---

Surely it means the exact opposite - that in her timeline, for some reason, the Daleks didn't come along, fight a pitched battle with a division of Cybermen in Canary Wharf, attempt to enslave the whole of the Earth, try to steal the planet to destroy the universe, etc.

The simple answer, if anything can be called such in the context of time travel, would be that the Doctor jumped down the wrong trouser leg of time while he was getting used to the new Tardis, and ended up in a timeline where this didn't happen for some reason - if he can miss his date by a decade or so, I'm sure he could end up in the wrong timeline. But for all the occasional timey-wimeyness, Doctor Who rarely seems to move beyond a linear model of time, only remembering the complications of time travel when they're needed for a plot device.

Because of that, and the way it was flagged, it seems to be building up to an "issue", most likely to be addressed in an exciting double-headed finale. My money's on the crack as well, but I don't see that it has to involve the Daleks in the finale. The Daleks could be one of many unrelated things which have changed as a consequence (intended or not) of whatever is going on with this crack.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The Angels have gone from being slightly sympathetic creatures who "kill you nicely" to something very sinister and decidedly scary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Also you've got to love River Song - both her as a character (the opening scenes are fantastic)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tessaB:
Stupidly it just occured to me that the angels broke Bob's neck. I thought that when they touched someone they sent them back in time? Isn't that what they fed on? The residual energy of the life unlived? Did I miss something?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eigon:
Just as an aside, the museum the Doctor stole the 'black box' from was Brecon Cathedral!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
The simple answer, if anything can be called such in the context of time travel, would be that the Doctor jumped down the wrong trouser leg of time while he was getting used to the new Tardis, and ended up in a timeline where this didn't happen for some reason

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
Spoilers


Well a bit more idea about Amy, her memory and as for the relationship stuff...


And when does River Song kill the doctor - and how will he rewrite time to get out of that, sounds like a series finale to me...

---

When the Pandorica opens ...
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
I thought the episode fizzled out a bit today. The day was won (either by the Doctor or the Angels - I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't watched yet) but then there were some scenes which turned it into an anti-climax. And I didn't like how Amy reacted at the end. And what the Doctor said about Amy had already been said about Donna.

However before all that it was a very good story, well acted and Youngest Rogueling was scared again.
 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
Don't know about the kids but it bloody terrified me.
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 
Not really comfortable with the way Amy jumped on the Doctor at the end - still a kids' programme after all, and dragging him into bed felt a bit out of place. Liked the solution to the Angel problem, but why is Amy the centre of the universe again?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
It was an OK story, not outstanding but OK until Amy took it into a complete nosedive. That was too far. And on the eve of her wedding. Cracking good luck to the future husband.

I suppose we're stuck with her for a while to come.
 

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Posted by Giac (# 15580) on :
 
So yet another person who's fallen madly in love with the Doctor. The only one who hasn't so far is Donna and I don't want to credit her with that because I really hated her.
Also didn't like suductive Amy.

The episode was ok, but it went down hill with the main baddies getting eclipsed by the big event. Also, shouldn't there still be loads of angels down there? Only about twenty got sucked up.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
Um, well, that was interesting...

SPOILERS


The scenes with them trying to escape the angels were good, and the set-up of their eventual defeat with the gravity being switched off was quite nice. But it did feel that they were defeated more by the crack in time turning up rather than the Doctor doing anything particularly clever... it felt a bit too convenient.

But as for Amy propositioning the Doctor for casual sex on her wedding night.... whaaaat?!?! I'm glad that the Doctor responded to this as a Very Bad Thing, and it's obviously part of the ongoing story and development of Amy's character. But... really? Seriously?
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I enjoyed the episode.

*

SPOILERS

*

Still, irritations:
agree that I prefer the Amy of a couple of episodes ago. (I assume that she really is unsure about commit to her wedding.)
I don't believe that the angels don't know whether or not you can see them.
The angels were badly directed again. They didn't have their hands over their eyes often enough. And they shouldn't have moved on camera. That was Just Wrong.

Speculations:
Is it obvious that the man River killed was the Doctor, or is too obvious? And is the current incarnation of the Doctor arrogant enough to think she means him? (The Doctor of course knows what River doesn't know he knows, which is that River is going to die for him.)
Does the fact that the rift is centred on Amy have anything to do with Amy not having parents and being abandoned with her aunt? (My wild mass guess was that Amy was River and the Doctor's daughter but after this episode that would just be too squicky.)

[ 02. May 2010, 00:45: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
I'm hoping that Amy's thing at the end was a character aberration brought on by whatever is running through the whole series rather something that she actually wanted although I remember from the first episode that she had all sorts of fantasies about her "raggedy man" (?) so who knows what her mind may have been playing at?

I am interested to see what back story for Amy crops up because I want to know why the crack centres on her. But I hope we don't spend too much time with the people she knows. And what happened to her aunt?

[ 02. May 2010, 07:27: Message edited by: The Rogue ]
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Increasingly bored with this series I'm afraid. The angles were great the first time they appeared; this time they were dull. Far too many of them, and now you keep your eyes shut, not open, to escape them, so everything is back to front. And how convenient to have one on demand to explain everything they are doing. Did the Doctor work out anything in this episode?

I was also underwhelmed by River Song and Amy. Both fall into the "annoying women who fall in love with the Doctor" category. Bring back Martha Jones, who kept her feelings hidden as much as she could! (Rose was soppy and Donna irritating.) Could we please have companions who are a) company for the Doctor - why not another bloke? and b) interesting because of their personality rather than because the they have unexpected superpowers? (That was why Martha was brilliant - when she saved the world it was all down to her grit and determination.)
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
we didn't watch last night's episode because my ten year old was so frightened by 'Blink' (he was at a party last week) so can anyone advise if they're less scary now the rules have changed? I didn't think much of last week's episode but I was watching with a critical parental eye which might have warped things...

I don't know if watching it on i-player in daylight with lunch or something will be more effective at banishing residual nightmares than avoiding it altogether?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taliesin:
we didn't watch last night's episode because my ten year old was so frightened by 'Blink' (he was at a party last week) so can anyone advise if they're less scary now the rules have changed?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Off Centre View:
Did anyone notice that there were two Doctors in the forest of the treeborgs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

Speculations:
My wild mass guess was that Amy was River and the Doctor's daughter but after this episode that would just be too squicky.

---

quote:

---

Did anyone notice that there were two Doctors in the forest of the treeborgs? A big point was made of the Doctor losing his jacket to the
weeping angels and then spending the rest of the episode without it.

However ... there's a bit when the jacket-less Doctor has decided to leave Amy in the care of the clerics in the forest, tells her to keep her eyes shut and then leaves with River and Octavian to go to the ship's flight deck. Then we see the Doctor wearing his jacket take Amy's hands and tell her to trust him, then leaves again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Off Centre View:
However ... there's a bit when the jacket-less Doctor has decided to leave Amy in the care of the clerics in the forest, tells her to keep her eyes shut and then leaves with River and Octavian to go to the ship's flight deck. Then we see the Doctor wearing his jacket take Amy's hands and tell her to trust him, then leaves again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Off Centre View:
However ... there's a bit when the jacket-less Doctor has decided to leave Amy in the care of the clerics in the forest, tells her to keep her eyes shut and then leaves with River and Octavian to go to the ship's flight deck. Then we see the Doctor wearing his jacket take Amy's hands and tell her to trust him, then leaves again.

---

That actually scared me for a moment. Then the action continued, and I thought it was me not following the story carefully enough.
As nothing came of it, and that story concluded, I assumed that it was a continuity error - but you never know what 'unimportant' 'minor' detail will pop up in a later episode to poke you in the eye.

---

quote:

---

I don't think it was a continuity error. I think it was timey wimey stuff, possibly an appearance of the Doctor from the finale.

The other thing I noticed was that Amy's house may not be all it seems. In the closing scene, there's an exterior shot of the house which shows clearly that the only light on is in Amy's bedroom. However, in the scene inside the bedroom, there's clearly a light coming from the hallway. I suppose that could be continuity again, but there has been previous speculation about peculiar properties of the house.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
And just what is it about the ducks?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
And just what is it about the ducks?

---

Ducks? I don't remember ducks?

---

That is what it is about the ducks.
The Doctor is bothered - in both this episode and in episode one - that Amy's village duckpond did not have any ducks in it.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
The last five minutes prompted a lot of eye-rolling from me. But ... thank goodness, the Doctor appeared absolutely horrified.

I don't think this means there will be Twue Wuv between Amy and the Doctor (please no...) I think she's desperate to avoid getting married, and throwing herself at him was part of that desperation. She said herself that she wasn't thinking long-term.

Oh, for the good old days, when platonic relationships were the norm in the Tardis. Let's face it, the Doctor spent plenty of time with Leela, who would be temptation enough for many!
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Goodness me, that Amy's a minx!

But I thoroughly enjoyed Saturday's episode, which certainly kept up the momentum and quality of Time of Angels. The resolution was nicely set up within the opening scene, the dialogue was great and there was some really good acting from Smith, Gillan, Kingston and Glen.

As a set-up for the rest of the series ... well, theories abound but for me it'll just be fun watching it all work out. I think Moffat is quite deliberately appealing to the "intelligent viewer": some of the concepts he's using, and his setting-up of possible story arcs, really mean you have to watch, listen and think.
 

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Posted by Wayfaring Stranger (# 15081) on :
 
Surprised no-one's mentioned this, but ...

Having rather resigned myself to the idea that Father Octavian would turn out to be serving some evil Magisterium which had sent him to this planet to seize the Angel as a weapon to abuse children with ... ... I was rather pleasantly surprised by the entirely noble and self-sacrificing fate he was given, and his blessing to the Doctor, which was played entirely straight.
 

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Posted by The Exegesis Fairy (# 9588) on :
 
I was quite pleased by that myself, Wayfaring Stranger.

It was quite a sweet moment, really.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
As a result the reader never knew what had happened and what hadn't, and everything disintegrated in a confusing mess.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Always remember: Cybermen and Daleks are human - Gallifreyans aren't!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Surprised no-one's mentioned this, but ...

Having rather resigned myself to the idea that Father Octavian would turn out to be serving some evil Magisterium which had sent him to this planet to seize the Angel as a weapon to abuse children with ... ... I was rather pleasantly surprised by the entirely noble and self-sacrificing fate he was given, and his blessing to the Doctor, which was played entirely straight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

So no, there are no continuity errors. There can't be because there is no continuity...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Off Centre View:


Since the Daleks have now been restored to their pre-Time War selves, could the same be done for the Time Lords? Is the Moff trying to undo everything from RTD's era - hence the mentioning of people not remembering stuff like the Daleks and the Cyberking?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Surprised no-one's mentioned this, but ...

Having rather resigned myself to the idea that Father Octavian would turn out to be serving some evil Magisterium which had sent him to this planet to seize the Angel as a weapon to abuse children with ... ... I was rather pleasantly surprised by the entirely noble and self-sacrificing fate he was given, and his blessing to the Doctor, which was played entirely straight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Surprised no-one's mentioned this, but ...

Having rather resigned myself to the idea that Father Octavian would turn out to be serving some evil Magisterium which had sent him to this planet to seize the Angel as a weapon to abuse children with ... ... I was rather pleasantly surprised by the entirely noble and self-sacrificing fate he was given, and his blessing to the Doctor, which was played entirely straight.

---

"Noble" was exactly what I thought too, especially his last comment to the Doctor - "Sir, I think you see me at my best"

---

I'd been prewarned of this by Paul Cornell himself - it was indeed magnificent as it played out.
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Ian Glen is a Shakespearean actor, and it showed. And I mean that as a compliment.
 

---

Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Ken wrote: [QUOTE So no, there are no continuity errors.] [/QUOTE]

but is there a sanity clause??

J?
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
I wonder if Amy's non-remembering of the Daleks means that her timeline is one without the Cybermen v. Daleks at Canary Wharf, Titanic, the Master taking over everyone's face etc. This way her timeline can actually be ours, and easier for us to relate to, whereas with the Christmas specials and all the rest of the hoo-ha, that timeline is now so far in the realm of science fiction it's getting difficult to keep up with.

This makes things much easier for all the writers!
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Keeps returning to my mind that the Ood's continual refrain was *your song is ending* - have they taken syntax lessons from Yoda, I wonder and thus *your ending is Song*?
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Venetian Vampiric Dental Fashion, very

Don't Look Nowsferatu

Daylight?? Reflections??? hmm - gonna have to watch that again; didn't catch a lot of it - tho' I think someone's been reading Tim Powers' *The Stress of Her Regard* which has shapeshifting reptile§/stone statue/humanoid vampires who also have Venice as one of their strongholds.

§ tho' these guys' alt.shape looks more like crayfish!
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
I liked the 'library card', nice to acknowledge Dr Who having a past (while also not going to the other extreme).
Hope they can get the 2 companions working well..please (not a bad start).

Only question really is them being 'much worse than vampires', given he needed to use a 10 story stake (and bad special effects) to kill one in e-space and they were meant to be the Time Lords nightmares. His reaction didn't really fit (but who cares).
 

---

Posted by Quinine (# 1668) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jahlove:
Venetian Vampiric Dental Fashion, very

Don't Look Nowsferatu

---

You're fired
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
That was a very silly ep. But then I can't stand constume dramas. Next week's seems better, dream vs reality. Ah well.
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I'm a very uncritical viewer. As usual, I loved it!
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I'm sure gondolas would have had little cabins on at that date.

SPOILERS

I enjoyed it too - vampires turning into fish people from outer space! What's not to like?

M.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
I thought this one was better. Liked Rory, and hope he stays around longer than Amy. But there was an ethical dilemma that seemed not to worry the Doctor at all - save a city and kill a race. Will this come back to ahunt him? (I really hope not, but I suspect it will.) Anyway, I think things are finally looking up.
 

---

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Don't normally watch Doc Who, but caught this episode. Was a bit hammy... is it always like that?

Bits of Venice looked like they had been designed by William Burgess
 

---

Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
Did anyone else not really believe that kiss?

Rory has spent the whole episode (whole season really) being the stereotypical safe, solid, slightly drippy boyfriend who contrasts with the exciting, intelligent, witty, exotic Doctor - who she leaves to travel with on the night before her wedding, and tries to snog (and probably more).

Then there are jokes about him being a eunuch and more like a brother than a fiance.

Finally we have a slapstick sword-fight in which yes he's defending her, but during which she shouts instructions ("hit him", "bring him this way") and looks exasperated when he uses the wrong end of the broom, and in which she has to save him in the end. At the end of all this she calls him a numpty for making the sign of the cross and then kisses him.

Where did this sudden swell of sexual attraction come from? It's like they want us to believe that they are again a viable couple but I don't see it in what they've actually shown us between the two of them.
 

---

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I thought this one was better. Liked Rory, and hope he stays around longer than Amy. But there was an ethical dilemma that seemed not to worry the Doctor at all - save a city and kill a race. Will this come back to ahunt him? (I really hope not, but I suspect it will.) Anyway, I think things are finally looking up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
But there was an ethical dilemma that seemed not to worry the Doctor at all - save a city and kill a race.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Matt, I actually thought it was
this

At least, the bedroom with its gilded walls and colourful ceiling looked very like it (even if the wiki photo is crap)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Rory has a bit more spark about him than Mickey did at that point, so maybe he will grow on me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Don't normally watch Doc Who, but caught this episode. Was a bit hammy... is it always like that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
Didn't the alien fish want to take over the whole planet and get rid of the humans?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think the fact that she didn't know the name of her victim was an indication - to the doctor at least - that she didn't really care about humans as anything other than a means to reproduction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
Didn't the alien fish want to take over the whole planet and get rid of the humans?

---

She said she only wanted one city, so not the whole human race.

---

Yep you are right DI stand correted. Still though, it starts in with Venice. She didn't strike me as the kind of character who would be happy with just one city when there is a whole world out there to be populated, and of course eaten.

[ 12. May 2010, 11:44: Message edited by: Hugal ]
 

---

Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
Sorry for the double post. I missed the edit window. It should read Dafyd I not DI.
 

---

Posted by rufiki (# 11165) on :
 
Isn't there a bigger issue than the species vs city choice? The fish-aliens arrived on Earth through a crack in space-time. They weren't supposed to be there. If they'd carried out their plan, it would have altered Earth history. And we all know what the Doctor thinks about changing history.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Interesting, amusing episode, even slightly creepy in places. I liked the metaphysical twist - this was a bit more thought-provoking than other recent episodes. One of the better episodes in this series.

Unfortunately, Amy's still in it, but you can't have everything.
 

---

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
Very creepy. Particularly when we find out exactly who the Dream Lord is.
I do find anything to do with dreams and reality quite interesting and potentially scary. How do we know what is dream and what is real life, when we dream we sometimes know it is a dream but sometimes it can feel so true that even on waking we can be confused.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Greatly enjoyed it - When is a dream not a dream? AS Level philosophy stuff.

I also think the current doctor is one of the best.
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Excellent stuff this week. Liked it very much indeed. Next week should be good as well.

I wonder if we'll now see in some of the more decrepit housing estates an increase in attacks on eldery peeps by yobs in Volkswagen camper vans?
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
OTOH it may also inspire the old folks to fight back with lawnmowers and other garden implements.

Liked the Dreamlord very much even tho' he didn't finish the limerick.

Slightly bemused that no-one was sporting the Big Pointy Teef this week - I thought it was a running motif like Bad Wolf.

So glad Rory cut off that ghastly pony-tail
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Very PoMo; loved it.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
It was always pretty obvious that the future village wasn't real.
Is it me or was the Doctor's dark side not all that dark actually? There wasn't ever any real risk of actual death (well, I suppose they'd have died of thirst eventually...) and the end result was that Amy realises that she loves the man she's marrying really. More of a Jungian dark side bringing out things that people had been keeping in their subconscious than a true evil side.
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
hmm, well the Dreamlord's idea of a fun joke, albeit his humour was somewhat testy and sarcastic, was that you end up dead if you make the wrong choice if you're not clever - or lucky - enough to figure out the truth while under assault from competing delusions, any of which were fairly plausible. And he didn't seem too bothered about it. Evil? Maybe not, more like callous.
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
It was always pretty obvious that the future village wasn't real.

---

The street with the butcher is - my parents live there!
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I seem to be going against the trend, I thought it was weak and didn't like it at all.

M.

Edited to add: though I do think Matt Smith is turning out to be a fantastic Doctor.

[ 16. May 2010, 10:19: Message edited by: M. ]
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I quite liked it, but didn't think it was as creepy as it should have been. The Dream Lord was great (if a bit too 'Q' perhaps!) but the explanation was a bit meh...

... unless of course, that reflection at the end means there is more to it.

Remember what a good job Moffat did with 'Jekyll' - he could be revisiting that territory perhaps?
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
The Dream Lord was great (if a bit too 'Q' perhaps!) but the explanation was a bit meh...

... unless of course, that reflection at the end means there is more to it.

---

I could be wrong. But wasn't the laugh at the end actually from "off-stage"? Maybe I just read too much into it, but seemed that way to me, with the Doctor looking round quickly, surprised and slightly nervous.

It struck me as a very Peter Davison sort of episode. Like Castrovalva, Enlightenment and a couple of others whose names I can't remember, but where they primarily played with thought-provoking ideas.

I'll be interested to see if in a future episode the Doctor gets stuck in Groundhog Day.


 

---

Posted by The Exegesis Fairy (# 9588) on :
 
I LOVED that episode. In the 'Matt Smith really won me over in it' kind of way. It was, I thought, an episode that played to his...essential Doctorness... that's not quite what I mean.

But I thought I saw him inhabiting the role, and he had me believing him in it consistently.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that felt so real...what if you were unable to wake from that dream?
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jahlove:
hmm, well the Dreamlord's idea of a fun joke, albeit his humour was somewhat testy and sarcastic, was that you end up dead if you make the wrong choice if you're not clever - or lucky - enough to figure out the truth while under assault from competing delusions, any of which were fairly plausible. And he didn't seem too bothered about it. Evil? Maybe not, more like callous.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Exegesis Fairy:
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that felt so real...what if you were unable to wake from that dream?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Balaam:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Exegesis Fairy:
[qb]
Next week drilling into the Earth. Where have I seen that before? (Two word clue: John and Pertwee.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

It struck me as a very Peter Davison sort of episode.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Skenfrith, I believe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
I was reminded of 'The Mind Robber' myself. (Troughton episode set in a place full of fictional creations.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
I was reminded of 'The Mind Robber' myself. (Troughton episode set in a place full of fictional creations.)

---

I was rather hoping it was going to be the Mind Robber. As it was I found the explanation rather dull (some things we've never heard of fell into a part of the Tardis we've never heard of). This series still hasn't caught fire for me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
The greatest unanswered question though: does the real tardis have an emergency generator that consists of an egg whisk and a corkscrew?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
I was reminded of 'The Mind Robber' myself. (Troughton episode set in a place full of fictional creations.)

---

I was rather hoping it was going to be the Mind Robber. As it was I found the explanation rather dull (some things we've never heard of fell into a part of the Tardis we've never heard of). This series still hasn't caught fire for me.

---

Ah, but the explanation that the Dream Lord was the Doctor's dark side was far from dull!

---

Yes - and the Doctor said he'd worked it out because there was only one person that hated him as much.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Today I'm getting in early - but otherwise I'm staying the same. Today's epsidoe was very deeply dull, and I think the BBC is starting to realise they have a problem. The "reviews" in the Radio Times seem to be to have an increasingly desperate note. Every week they rave about the new Doctor; today they said: "does anyone not like Matt Smith? The guy's brilliant." To my mind the most that can be said is that, for many people, the jury is still out.
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Bloody 'ell - it's a two-parter! I hate when that happens. They could've warned us. Not too uninteresting though. To be continued next week...
 

---

Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Today I'm getting in early - but otherwise I'm staying the same. Today's epsidoe was very deeply dull, and I think the BBC is starting to realise they have a problem. The "reviews" in the Radio Times seem to be to have an increasingly desperate note. Every week they rave about the new Doctor; today they said: "does anyone not like Matt Smith? The guy's brilliant." To my mind the most that can be said is that, for many people, the jury is still out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelica37:
Homo reptilia could be a possibility I suppose, maybe they wanted the dead bodies for a bit of genetic engineering?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tessaB:
Matt Smith talks too blooming fast. I'm not yet fifty and I have trouble keeping up with him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
David Tennant's gurning irritated me in the end. Matt's arrival was not a moment too soon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Later, in his conversation with the Silurian, look at the expression on his face when she says she's the last of her species. And again the perfect delivery, ending on a note of real threat, as he says, "I'm the last of my species, and I know how that sits in a heart. So don't insult me."

---

I thought that was incredible, you could almost FEEL the pain!
 

---

Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
Poor Rory!
 

---

Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Poor Rory!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
The main story with the Silurians was so-so . . .

---

Fabulous make-up, though!


 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I thought the main story was OK, it was obvious the Silurian hostage (Alaia?)was going to be killed by someone and it all got a bit dreary during the peace talks. But the ending was electric - didn't see it coming at all.

I hope Rory gets back in some way; Amy is getting very irritating.

M.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Having just seen the repeat on BBC3 I found that fascinating. Given a choice I would rather Amy had disappeared than Rory, but at last we've seen the crack in time actually doing something. The glimpse of their future selves made them both look safe, and now she can't even remember him. Clearly this is part of the build up to the finale (only four episodes to go), but there is a long way to go if that is going to be satisfying.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
Rory was indeed growing as a character. (sniff)

Anyway, questions: Is the Tardis blowing up anything to do with the wedding not taking place, I wonder?
If the Tardis doesn't blow up (like they would) does that mean that the crack never existed, and if the crack never existed, does that mean that Rory comes back, but if Rory comes back would that mean that the Doctor and Amy had to find some other way to dispose of all the angels on the Byzantium?

In previous seasons, I've wondered why the Doctor doesn't do something proactive about the season arc. In this case, given the Eleventh Doctor's usual MO, I can believe that the Doctor is trying to think of a plan but is waiting until he comes up with one at the last minute.
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
In previous seasons, I've wondered why the Doctor doesn't do something proactive about the season arc. In this case, given the Eleventh Doctor's usual MO, I can believe that the Doctor is trying to think of a plan but is waiting until he comes up with one at the last minute.

---

quote:

---

He is not there yet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
After four series stealing merrily from Buffy, it seems that BBC Wales are now stealing from Star Trek. Bloke gets caught by Silurian forked tongue that then appears to infect him and turn him into a Silurian (spreading green veins) - Borg, anyone?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
I'd at least have liked a scene with the Doctor popping forward to 3020 to see the Cult of the Lizard-People waiting for the prophecy to be fulfilled, and being there to welcome the Silurians on waking.

---

quote:

---

I'd be very surprised if Rory is gone for good, though. I think they'd have handled his death completely differently if he was actually, permanently being written out.

---

quote:

---

The piece of shrapnel seemed to imply that the cracks are caused by the future destruction of the TARDIS, which is intriguing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
Was anyone else reminded by the Star Whale, of the giant creature that was being kept for meat in an early Torchwood episode?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
Maybe somewhere in the universe, Rory, a bunch of clerics, and some startled weeping angels have found themselves on the other side of the crack! We'll have to wait and see...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
Maybe somewhere in the universe, Rory, a bunch of clerics, and some startled weeping angels have found themselves on the other side of the crack! We'll have to wait and see...

---

Ecclesiantics perhaps?

---

Oi, I heard that!
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I thought of something the other day.

You know the kids' game "Grandmother's Footsteps"? One person at the front with their back turned, and the others try to sneak up on them - except they have to freeze when the person at the front turns round.

I wonder if anyone is playing this as "Weeping Angels" now? That could really mess with kids' heads!
 

---

Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
Gill H - I'm sure I've heard Moffat say in an interview that they try and invent monsters that easily translate into playground games.

The new Doctor Who computer game, City of the Daleks, is now available to download for free for those in the UK. I'm just about to give it a whirl, looks fun!
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
After The Hungry Earth being a good setup, I thought Cold Blood was a bit of a disappointment. Didn't quite realise the potential. The last ten minutes, however, were pure jumping-off-the-sofa material. Poor Rory (apparently)! Poor Amy (apparently)! Poor TARDIS (apparently)! Stand by for a twisty, turny, timey-wimey finale, methinks!


* * * Ssh! Spoilers! * * *


Last night I watched the preview clips for Vincent and the Doctor on the BBC site, and wow! - I'm so looking forward to it. The dialogue glitters, Bill Nighy and Matt Smith have a bit of a bow tie moment, and I especially like the way the camera shots have been framed to look like van Gogh's paintings. (It helps, I guess, that van G is one of my favourite artists, but even so, it looks pretty impressive.)
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
Random thought:
The Tenth Doctor's problem was that deep down part of him thought he was God.
The Eleventh Doctor's problem is that deep down part of him thinks that he's only a madman with a box.
 

---

Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I especially like the way the camera shots have been framed to look like van Gogh's paintings.

---

We have a large print of "Cafe Terrace By Night" in our sitting room. It was really weird watching the trailer and seeing that view on the TV then glancing sideways to see it still on our wall.
I'm looking forward to tonight's episode. Even if the plot is full of holes I will enjoy the scenery.
 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
I am absolutely looking forward to it, Vincent being one of my favourite painters. I sat openmouthed at the trailers, Cafe by Night an' all! Marvellous - and if Bill Nighy's in it, doubly-marvellous, whoo-hoo!
 

---

Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :
 
I cried all over that episode. It genuinely moved me.
 

---

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
That's more like it! Best of the series so far I think. Absolutely lovely. I cried too. Especially the end.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
What a beautiful, bittersweet story. A silly alien but otherwise a lovely and moving episode. I've never liked Van Gogh's paintings but after this I feel a lot more sympathetic to him.

The scene in the museum at the end was sweet, but a little nerve-wracking at the same time - I was wondering how close they'd come to Vincent discovering his own date of death, maybe in a biog of the artist on one of the information panels.

Odd choice of subject for a Doctor Who episode though. I wouldn't have thought highbrow art would have fitted into Doctor Who, nor that Amy would have had any interest in it.
 

---

Posted by phil2357 (# 15431) on :
 
Definitely one of the best of the current series. Yes, it was a fairly basic monster, but I liked the way it became a sympathetic figure. 8/10

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Odd choice of subject for a Doctor Who episode though. I wouldn't have thought highbrow art would have fitted into Doctor Who...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Macrina:
I cried all over that episode. It genuinely moved me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
So was there any particular significance in The Doctor calling Vincent 'Rory' at one point?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
That was a very beautiful episode. One of the best ever. By itself it has made up for all the shortcomings of this series.

And talking of those shortcomings, may I take you back to the episode that finished with Amy trying to pull the Doctor into bed? At the time I assumed this would lead to an explanation that some alien force had been messing with her mind. However, the Doctor's answer was to bring Rory into the Tardis so presumably it was an expression of raw lust after all. Now Rory has gone, and never existed as far as Amy is concerned, so will we see the lust flare up again? (I don't want that, BTW, but it feels like a dangling plotline to me.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lola:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
That was a very beautiful episode. One of the best ever. By itself it has made up for all the shortcomings of this series.

And talking of those shortcomings, may I take you back to the episode that finished with Amy trying to pull the Doctor into bed? At the time I assumed this would lead to an explanation that some alien force had been messing with her mind. However, the Doctor's answer was to bring Rory into the Tardis so presumably it was an expression of raw lust after all. Now Rory has gone, and never existed as far as Amy is concerned, so will we see the lust flare up again? (I don't want that, BTW, but it feels like a dangling plotline to me.)

---

I'm sure Rory is coming back in the finale - the Doctor was able to reach into the crack and pull out a piece of the Tardis - surely that shows things can be brought back.

Amy is refreshing change in the companion. Essentially I see her as being written as a stroppy little madam - she wants to have her own way and be the centre of attention, she doesn't like anyone to show weakness, she flounces around but underneath she wants Rory to be there waiting patiently and loving he like the good man that he is. I don't think she'd mind if he put his foot down a little more. I think she's very realisitic.

She was poucing on the Doctor because she was feeling that it was a bit too sensible to get married to Rory so young - now that Rory has never existed I can't see she'll need to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lola:
I'm sure Rory is coming back in the finale - the Doctor was able to reach into the crack and pull out a piece of the Tardis - surely that shows things can be brought back.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
The monster was ridiculous, the identification gadget was ludicrous, and there was no satisfactory explanation of why Vincent could see it or why it was invisible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Balaam:
As the TARDIS controls were made of junk, it seemed appropriate that the device (whatever it was) should be junk too.

And a nice in joke for those who have visited the musee d'Orcay in that the device recognised the creature as first a parrot (there are a couple of famous portraits of a naked woman and of a young woman, both with parrots, and more obviously a polar bear, of which the d'Ocay has a famous sculpture.

Sorry I can't remember the artists, as I was preoccupied with Monet when I was there, (Monet being the reason why the bow tie man was wrong about Vincent being the greatest ever painter.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

Odd choice of subject for a Doctor Who episode though. I wouldn't have thought highbrow art would have fitted into Doctor Who, nor that Amy would have had any interest in it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I would be surprised if Van Gogh was really sure that his work was not very good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Josephine:
I also would have liked to understand why only Vincent could see it, and why he knew that Amy had lost someone. Is that going to play into some future something?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

It would have served them right (and I was half-expecting this) if they'd gone back to the museum to find the exhibition devoted to some entirely different artist, while no one had ever heard of van Gogh.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I cried floods at Vincent's reaction to the museum, but I knew he would still go home and kill himself, because that's how that kind of mental illness works.

---

quote:

---

Ooh. Ouch. Sorry, that reads very badly. I didn't mean that's how that kind of mental illness always ends. I only meant that (speaking from personal experience) if you have depression or, I guess, bipolar disorder that involves periodic depression, then however good other people's opinions of you are, it seems to make little or no difference to how badly you see yourself. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Balaam:
As the TARDIS controls were made of junk, it seemed appropriate that the device (whatever it was)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Isn't it amazing that after thirty-something seasons over nearly 47 years, this show can still do something delightfully unlike anything else that has gone before? And isn't it also amazing that on a Saturday teatime we can sit down and watch a drama about art and mental illness disguised as a drama about an alien who travels in a phone box and another alien that looks like a giant plucked chicken?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Adding my two pennorth...
....

And what does Bill Nighy have on Richard Curtis that he appears in everything Curtis writes?

---

Anyone else think that was an "almost gay" minute between him and the Doctor when they were complimenting each other's bow ties?



- and he looked very pleased with himself when Vicent hugged and kissed him ....
 

---

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
A new Torchwood series!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment_and_arts/10262266.stm


 

---

Posted by angelica37 (# 8478) on :
 
After the horrible ending of Children of Earth I'm not sure I ever want to see Captain Jack again.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
I'm not sure he counts as "high art" in the elitist sense, or if he does he's popular high art. As the man said in the museum he's the most popular modern painter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sparrow

A new Torchwood series!

---

Oh please no. The Children of Earth was just painful to watch. I thought they'd gone to pains to kill or distance all the characters. Though the new team will probably be Jack, Alonso, Gwen, Martha and Micky.

[ 12. June 2010, 00:03: Message edited by: Giac ]
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Well tonight's episode doesn't sound riveting. The Radio Times describes it as, "Doctor Who does humour," which fails to thrill me. Still, the end of the season is now in sight. Let's hope something comes together by then.
 

---

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
I really enjoyed tonight's episode. James Cordon was very good, not as laddish as I was expecting and really believable as the wanna-be boyfriend who couldn't bring himself to declare his love.
Football of course had to figure in there somewhere
 

---

Posted by fluff (# 12871) on :
 
I really did enjoy that episode so much - lots of interesting ideas in it, I thought, and Matt Smith, really fantastic in the role.
 

---

Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Random thought:
The Tenth Doctor's problem was that deep down part of him thought he was God.
The Eleventh Doctor's problem is that deep down part of him thinks that he's only a madman with a box.

---

Or an ancient amateur.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Well tonight's episode doesn't sound riveting. The Radio Times describes it as, "Doctor Who does humour," which fails to thrill me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
I liked it, although some of it was a bit padded out. The thing that I found most unsatisfactory was the Doctor not knowing how to behave normally - he has been around humans, particularly late 20th/early 21st UK humans for a long time. I wonder if that's going somewhere? Last week, he didn't know how time passed normally, which also struck me as odd.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
The ship was supposed to be implodding which is why they left it in a hurry - so that's where that went but S's Cat has a point about the stairs - how can people walk up an illusion?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm afraid I'm starting to become one of those curmudgeons who think there's something a bit lacklustre about this season.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm afraid I'm starting to become one of those curmudgeons who think there's something a bit lacklustre about this season.

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Hello there.

I want to like this series. It's Doctor Who, after all, a great British tradition that spans the generations, unites families, enables people to make friends across the globe, brings world peace, etc. But this series has been a disappointment. Maybe now that they're recycling old plotlines (I'm sure we had The Alien in the Attic with Perception Filters before) it's just run out of steam, and time to call it a day?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pheonix:
I thought it was quite good generally...

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I don't see there is much build up to the end of season finale though other than another shot of the crack at the end...

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Originally posted by Sparrow:
It's the writing.

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If anybody knows the Moff, you can let him know I'm available...

...my rates are very reasonable, too.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
I enjoyed The Lodger - a good character-led episode for the second week running. In this series, there seems to be less reliance on putting the entire world in epic peril each week, which makes a refreshing change.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm afraid I'm starting to become one of those curmudgeons who think there's something a bit lacklustre about this season. For me, there have been only three really good stories - Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Amy's Choice and Vincent and the Doctor. And the first 15 minutes of The Eleventh Hour was pure genius.

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I'd agree with you that those three are the stand-out stories. I wouldn't describe this series as "lacklustre", but I would say it hasn't quite met my expectations for how the show would do under Steven Moffat. Given how good his contributions were to previous seasons, I expected a bit more from his vision of the show. It's been good, but it hasn't done anything quite as new or as brave as I hoped.

Even if the finale turns out to be mind-bendingly clever and timey-wimey, I'd rather that Moffat spent his time making sure that each individual episode made good sense, rather than leaving plot logic as a luxury to be saved for the finale. (Arguably the opposite of RTD, where logic would fly out the window in the finales )

RTD was brilliant at characters and big emotional moments, but less good at carefully worked-out plot logic. I'd hoped that Steven Moffat would add clever plotting to what had gone before, but instead we seem to have lost some of the depth of characterisation and emotion, with the story logic remaining just as wobbly as before. Victory of the Daleks was the worst offender in this respect - but it was still great fun.

quote:

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Apart from that, it's all turning out a bit ... well, you remember the first half of season three?

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That run of really good episodes from Smith and Jones on, including all-time classic Gridlock? I remember them very well!
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

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Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
RTD was brilliant at characters and big emotional moments, but less good at carefully worked-out plot logic.

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

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Originally posted by Avila:
The ship was supposed to be implodding which is why they left it in a hurry - so that's where that went but S's Cat has a point about the stairs - how can people walk up an illusion?

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So it should have imploded, not disappeared like the upper story.

I guess that the stairs were part of the ship, but then is the perception filter making people think they are climbing stairs, when it is a part of the ship? And did it actually break through the roof? And if that is the case how did the alien operate the front door?

Now I know that trying to make everything make sense in DW is a bad idea, but these are ( for me ) glaring problems that spoil the story completely.

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Originally posted by Esmeralda:
NO, the really unbelievable thing was that that type of Edwardian terraced house would ever have been built with only one story. I should know, I live in Muswell Hill where every house is an Edwardian terrace.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carys:

quote:

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Originally posted by Esmeralda:
NO, the really unbelievable thing was that that type of Edwardian terraced house would ever have been built with only one story. I should know, I live in Muswell Hill where every house is an Edwardian terrace.

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I thought that too, though they did manage to make it look just about ok after the top storey disappeared but a terrace with one build of one storey?

Carys

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Ok. This evening's Dr. Who... has broken the fourth wall in ways it's never been broken before. METAbroken it. I am astounded.

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Ecclestone didn't say he didn't enjoy it at all, just that the culture of the work didn't agree with him.

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Originally posted by Robin:
Diane Duane (author of the Young Wizards series and other fantasy works) tweeted as follows about The Lodger

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Ok. This evening's Dr. Who... has broken the fourth wall in ways it's never been broken before. METAbroken it. I am astounded.

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I am confused. What am I missing here? Can anyone suggest how this episode "broke the fourth wall"?

Robin

P.S. Thanks to the Powers that Be who have confirmed that it's OK to quote tweets on the boards.

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I didn't see any 'talking to the viewers' either
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Broke the fourth wall? There has been at least one Dr Who episodes where the program itself came on the telly and the characters only just left the room in time to miss it.
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 

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Originally posted by Robin:
Can anyone suggest how this episode "broke the fourth wall"?

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Perhaps she meant the part when the Doctor transferred his history into Craig's head?
It was obvious that the information was confirmation of things that Craig already had some awareness of - as though he had heard, or seen, it all before in the form of legend, myth, or TV programme.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
Having skimmed through it again, the closest thing I could find to breaking the fourth wall was a couple of times when the Doctor tells us what's going on - "so you have two sets of keys for a house you don't live in, you must like it here" - but that's not really breaking the fourth wall.

Perhaps there's something in the fact that the wall was "METAbroken". Not sure what she means by that.

Maybe saying to the audience "you think you've avoided watching football but you'll be sucked into it anyway".
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
okay

Metaphysics - beyond physics
Metabroken - beyond broken

Jengie
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Diane Duane has written many very pleasant, exceedingly light weight books. They are an entertaining way of passing time if you are bored or depressed, but do not bear the weight of thought as they are riddled with inconsictencies and contradictions. To find that her Twitter is as deep as her novels is no great surprise.

(And, before anyone asks, I'm not going to supply examples. I've read a lot of her stuff, but it's on the basis of: "read once and give copy to charity shop". Feel free to dismiss me as arrogant and posturing therefore; I recognise the description.)
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
There was no breaking of the fourth wall in The Lodger, only a slightly dodgy ceiling.

The most interesting breaking of the wall in recent Who was, I think, in Blink. We were told the Angels couldn't move when they were being looked at - what we actually got was the Angels being unable to move when the tv viewer was looking at them. It was the fourth wall breaking inwards, not outwards. That changed, of course, in Flesh and Stone when we did see the Angels moving.

On Christopher Eccleston: I think it's long been assumed that he left the show because he was well and truly cheesed of with something, but the quotations from the Radio Times interview don't give us much of an idea what that something was. He mentions the conditions that the cast and crew were working under, which suggests that something might have gone wrong with the BBC Powers That Be. I don't think he's criticising RTD - Eccleston knew RTD when they'd worked on Second Coming together. I think Eccleston had even been approached for a role in Queer as Folk, so I think the blame for his cheesed-offness must lie elsewhere.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Metaphysics - beyond physics
Metabroken - beyond broken

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Originally posted by andythehat:
And if the thing inside the pandorica - the destroyer of worlds or whatever - isn't the Doctor, I'll eat my hat.

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Originally posted by M.:
I do have this horrible feeling it's going to be all in Amy's head. Apart from River, of course.

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by M.:
I do have this horrible feeling it's going to be all in Amy's head. Apart from River, of course.

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Suddenly in this episode Amy has remembered the Daleks, which she didn't in an earlier episode.

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Originally posted by Ariel:
(The Tardis will have to be still intact if there are to be any more episodes. They can't leave the Doctor stuck in the Pandoricon for the rest of eternity, and it's not going to be much of a series if he's earthbound.)

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Agreed on the big picture, but I seem to remember a series of John Pertwee being exactly that [ETA: earthbound, not stuck in the pandora-thingy!]? Due to the Time Lords of course, budget constraints had noting to do with it

- Chris.

PS: I have faith the The Moff can get out of this one - but I very much look forward to seeing how...

[ 20. June 2010, 20:49: Message edited by: sanityman ]
 

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Posted by Pious Pelican (# 13120) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Somehow the resulting energy - or the sonic screwdriver - will close the crack in the wall.

(The Tardis will have to be still intact if there are to be any more episodes. They can't leave the Doctor stuck in the Pandoricon for the rest of eternity, and it's not going to be much of a series if he's earthbound.) [/QB]

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I've been wondering for a while whether we might be in for a period of Earthboundness. Hopefully a brief period. The Doctor has been saying in various episodes how awful it must be to experience time in the normal way, so I guessed that maybe the Tardis was going to be out of action for a bit. And that was before the Doctor pulled a steaming chunk of it out of the crack. But perhaps the Doctor's Tardis is not the only one in town ...

If the bluddy sonic screwdriver ends up saving the day, I will probably eat my computer in a fit of rage.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
The new Dr Who and his Companion are pretty damn good although the stories can be a bit wobbly.

I must say I think the late John Pertwee was the absolutiest best Dr Who and Elizabeth Sladen (still gorgeous at 60) a Companion of real delight. What a corker!

I find that some of the older Dr Who stories, although they didn't have the modern whizzbangs, were really good and you suspended belief.

As things get more technical, sadly, you don't have to.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Well, after having been so lukewarm about many of the episodes so far, I must say that I really enjoyed this one. The opening, with lots of glimpses of previous stories, was fun. I'm not sure it made any sense, but it was fun. The big revelation about the Pandoricon worked for me, and I can't see any way out at the moment. My only reservation is that it all seems to be centered around Amy in some way. If there is something special about her, then it will make 3 out of 4 companions with super powers, which is a bit much (the wonderful Martha Jones being the exception). However, with a bit of luck, Amy is now dead, so we can all rejoice. (Except she's bound to be saved next episode.)

And Sir P, loath though I am to disagree with you, Pertwee was a real low point among the Doctors. He used physical force, as opposed to intellect, to beat the bad guys. Venusian martial arts? Pah!
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Well that was the first episode in a long time that's had me literally on the edge of my seat and going "Nooooo!!" at the tv. Fantastic! The problem is, I can imagine several ways out of it, but each more outrageous than the last.

It did strike me that this one was exceptionally well directed and paced. I must check to see if this director's been used before, and I certainly hope he's used again.

Ssh! Spoilers - for anyone who hasn't seen it

Things I didn't expect included the lengthy pre-credits jaunt (Does Liz 10 attend to all her own security?) and the alliance of all the enemies - I'd only really expected them to get name-checked, or appear briefly in a flashback. Things I really didn't expect were Rory, Auton-Rory, and ... well, so's not to really spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, let's just call it Amy's final scene.

Well ... that's my next Saturday evening sorted out.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ariel:
I expect when the Tardis blows up, taking River with it, it'll have timey-wimey implications that will catapult them all back into a parallel universe where Rory never died, Amy hasn't been killed, the Doctor isn't in the Pandoricon, and the Tardis is still intact.

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Originally posted by wilson:
Also, the River that's in the Tardis hasn't yet met Amy and the Doctor at the Crash of the Byzantium. (She chided Amy about spoilers when she mentioned it at Stone Henge). So either she has to survive or there'll be another time anomaly[*].

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Originally posted by Ariel:
But this series has been a disappointment. Maybe now that they're recycling old plotlines (I'm sure we had The Alien in the Attic with Perception Filters before) it's just run out of steam, and time to call it a day?

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Was anyone else reminded during this episode of how, back in Victory of the Multi-Coloured Daleks, Amy managed to talk Bracewell out of exploding using the power of love?
Oh dear.

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Indeed I was. Only this time it didn't work. She'll come back to life I'm sure - this is still a kids show - but it would be great if she stayed dead. Personally I rate her as the most annoying companion since Adric - does anyone want to throw other names into the ring?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Peri.
 

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Posted by Cadfael (# 11066) on :
 
Some random confused thoughts...

Is it significant that the Doctor's sonic screwdriver in 'the pandorica opens' (TPO) casts a green illumination (rather than blue) and is a more complex design than the one he uses earlier in the series? The trailer for the episode made this pretty obvious.

Indeed, in TPO, the screwdriver looks like the one that was used by River (and 'saved' her) in the library, I think.

Also, the staggered cut between the Roman camp and the horseback ride (why not use the tardis?)to Stonehenge was odd, and techical equipment is on site in Stonehenge from nowhere: the lights, the 'stone moving thingies'.

...and also odd was the Dalek's comment that "only the Doctor can fly the tardis"... then River tries tries to pilot it, and ends up telling the Doctor that someone else is in control...

So are we dealing with two parallel timelines? Is the Doctor in the pandorica a later Doctor, while the Doctor we thought we were following is elsewhere, with a younger Amy (see BBC trailer images for next week...), trying to alter the timeline while the older Doctor is the 'decoy'?

So maybe the Doctor's "greater losses" alluded to in an earlier episode, is one of his possible lives...?

I need to lie down now, feeling a bit timey-wimey...


 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Peri.

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I see your Peri, and raise you Mel.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
By the way - was anyone thinking of the massed baddies as a 'coalition'?
 

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Posted by angelica37 (# 8478) on :
 
Wouldn't it be good if David Tennant were to turn up having gone back and taken a sneaky peek into River's diary in the library.
 

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Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Oh, and instead of locking the Doctor in The Pandoricum for all eternity, why didn't they just, er, kill him?

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Originally posted by Gill H:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Peri.

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I see your Peri, and raise you Mel.

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Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I mean: we know daleks and cybermen have time travel; Nestenes and Judoon - well, why not?; but the Silurians? No.

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Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
The Daleks are a great enemy (or at least they were until their makeover), but did anyone else think, when they heard that evil voice over the ether, Oh please, not them AGAIN!

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Yes, I did, and I thought, if it's the bloody Daleks again, I'm switching off.

And they did, and so I did. So I have no idea what happened after that, and I really can't be bothered any more.


 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
The Daleks are a great enemy (or at least they were until their makeover), but did anyone else think, when they heard that evil voice over the ether, Oh please, not them AGAIN!

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Yes, I did, and I thought, if it's the bloody Daleks again, I'm switching off.

And they did, and so I did. So I have no idea what happened after that, and I really can't be bothered any more.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:


Despite my previous gripe, I still think Dr Who is easily the best thing on British tv at the moment. The best stories of this season have been wonderful, and the worst have been no worse than "Meh...". This one is stunning, brilliant, and best of all - puzzling. It's beyond doubt that some very clever and unexpected things will happen in the final episode.

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Originally posted by kfingers:
It took me a couple of episodes to get used to Matt Smith, but to be honest, I was so pig sick of the OTT (imo) lovey doveyness of the David Tennant incanation... by the series finale of Tennant I was just glad to get it over with adn move on to a new face. Matt Smith's brought a new energy to the role and Amy Pond is delicious (even though she has an annoying habit of getting kidnapped). It's nice to see some characters from the last series, but it would love them to bring back K9 for more than just a bitpart (if the Darleks can learn to fly, why can't K9)?

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We had more K9 in series 3 of Sarah-Jane Adventures (possibly still on I-player)

Carys
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
Nice enough,

Still a bit confused by the timelines, it seems to be a hybrid deterministic/changeable mix, and I'm not sure what happened from any perspective but had the entertainment of both worlds.

I suppose the recreation of the Universe is as big a gizmo as Roses, Martha or Donna's big fazzoom, but felt a lot more sutle.

Another Dalek return but not back in their millions followed by all gone (in fact the opposite technically).
And a mixed Tardis for (at least some of) next season.
 

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Posted by Off Centre View (# 4254) on :
 
Wonderful final episode, very timey wimey and with a fairy tale ending, although it wisely left a few loose threads and questions for the future (why the Tardis did what it did & River Song's future relationship with the Doctor were left unclear).

I was finished further appreciated the series as a whole and it will feel enjoyable to watch again over. I liked the Fez gag as well!
 

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Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :
 
Alright, just managed to find episodes from this latest season streaming online—my first thought, of course, was to look at today's date.
Well everyone, it's been nice knowin' y'all. It seems that the universe is set to go boom tonight.
 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
I am certainly going to have to watch this again. Thoroughly enjoyed it but I got a bit confused with it all. I don't know how the target audience of 8 yr olds could really follow it all (maybe they follow it better than I do )
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Why was the Doctor doing Tommy Cooper impersonations?

As Wayfaring Stranger said earlier, it gets bigger and bigger. This time, the Doctor hurls himself into an exploding Tardis in order to reboot the entire universe and reset time. How are they going to top that?

Easily the best thing about this series is River. She should have her own spin-off series.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Clever - 'There are no stars. It's just a story.' and also looping back to the girl praying to Father Christmas.

[ 26. June 2010, 20:26: Message edited by: leo ]
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

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Originally posted by leo:
Clever - 'There are no stars. It's just a story.' and also looping back to the girl praying to Father Christmas.

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I liked the reference to Richard Dawkins as part of the star cult.

It was definitely timey-wimey but good.

Carys
 

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Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
I liked the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy reference in last weeks episode. The message carved in the side of the cliff face in huge letters many feet high. But which is more profound?

We apologise for the inconvenience...

or

Hello Sweetie
 

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Posted by Malin (# 11769) on :
 
Loved it Just fantastic entertainment, twists and turns and a great sweep of time and space. I am also now totally a fan of Matt Smith as the Doctor which I thought I might never be after loving David Tennant in the role.

I'm really glad Rory and Amy both left with the Doctor at the end - just gutted I need to wait until Christmas for the next episode!
 

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Posted by Cadfael (# 11066) on :
 
I was struck by the idea of someone giving up their life to renew creation... I think I've heard about that before, somewhere...

In other news: I thought the "something old, something new..." allusions were quite beautiful and romantic - and a wonderful implied connection between the cosmic and the human scales of significance.

In short:
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Why was the Doctor doing Tommy Cooper impersonations?

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Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
Something old,
Something new,
Something borrowed,
Something blue

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

I wish they'd found something for young Amelia to do in the museum instead of getting rid of her.

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Originally posted by tessaB:
Oh but Amelia was the most important bit. The pandoricon needed her DNA to bring Amy back to life.

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
I want a fez. fezzes are cool!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ceannaideach:
I liked the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy reference in last weeks episode. The message carved in the side of the cliff face in huge letters many feet high.

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Originally posted by Dormouse:
I loved the fact that Rory was willing to guard Amy for 2,000 years - and that the Doctor wistfully referred to him as "The boy who waited 2,000 years". I have gone from thinking "Why on earth would a woman like Amy want to marry a wimp like Rory?" to "Why on earth would such a lovely bloke like Rory want to be saddled with a hussy like Amy?"!

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Also, it didn't bother me at the time, but the Doctor going back in time so Rory can let him out so he can go back in time is unsatisfactory.

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I agree. I also think there should have been wider consequences of the Doctor being erased from history. When David Tennant's Doctor was killed, all sorts of nasty things happened to Earth because he wasn't around to stop them.

And how come Amy is allowed to touch young Amy when Rose wasn't allowed to touch baby Rose?

ETA: Mind you, Matt Smith in a Tux makes up for quite a lot.

[ 27. June 2010, 20:46: Message edited by: rufiki ]
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rufiki:
I also think there should have been wider consequences of the Doctor being erased from history. When David Tennant's Doctor was killed, all sorts of nasty things happened to Earth because he wasn't around to stop them.

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quote:

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And how come Amy is allowed to touch young Amy when Rose wasn't allowed to touch baby Rose?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Down sides:
The time bracelet was a bit too versatile. It makes the tardis look clumsy. Also, it didn't bother me at the time, but the Doctor going back in time so Rory can let him out so he can go back in time is unsatisfactory.

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The time bracelet was a rather clunky and suspiciously precise plot device, I agree (especially when the whole series started out with the Doctor unable to get the Tardis to hit the right decade), introduced so that River could join in and to permit the second of your gripes. I'm sufficiently sad that after the first episode, I spent a lot of time thinking about possible ways of resolving the story, and this one (cf the Terminator Paradox of how Dyson developed the first Terminator by reverse-engineering another one), while intensely irritating, is so much better than the various "and-they-woke-up-and-it-was-all-a-dream"-flavoured alternatives. Of course it's flawed, but if the sleight of hand is concealed with sufficiently charming patter, it isn't glaring.

I also found the nature of this collapse of the universe annoyingly vague, considering that so much of the plot rested on it. If everything was collapsing in on itself with the Earth at the centre, how come the stars disappeared instantly, rather than whenever the light from their supernovas reached us, or (if they were "exploding" into never-existedness) when the collapse reached them? Why did the collapse destroy everything up to and including the Sun, but then sit around twiddling its thumbs for 2,000 years and only start to close in on Earth at the exact point young Amy returned? Why should the collapse of everything that ever was or will be happen chronologically anyway, as suggested by frequent references to the collapse closing in?

For all that, it flowed well enough that I was prepared to forgive the plot holes. For once, the second half of a two-parter seemed like a real story, rather than a messy and half-baked resolution. The story didn't revolve around the Daleks again, as I briefly feared, and the conclusion, while predictable, was well-handled.

I love Matt Smith as the Doctor, like Amy (although it seems to work better with Rory as well), and was generally very impressed with Steven Moffat's episodes. The others were far more hit and miss, possibly because he has a looser hand on the tiller than RTD, but the development of the storyline through the whole series was a huge improvement on a series of unrelated stories clumsily tied together at the end. I just hope we get some more new interesting baddies next series, rather than the same ones over and over. The Weeping Angels just about worked this time, but are in danger of overexposure, and we all know about the Cybermen and Daleks.

One last thought: Given that the trap was baited from Amy's mind, and RoboRory programmed on that basis, it occurred to me that we have no idea whether Rory really would have waited and guarded Amy for 2,000 years (he may have done, or he may not), just that Amy believed he would. I suppose that's good enough as a starting point for a marriage.
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
a germ of a theory?

A-G In order From the point of view of the universe
1-7 In order from the point of view of Amy

A5)The Universe lives almost as normal

B1)Dr sees little Amy
B6)Tardis goes kewbowee
C7)The universe collapses however until Amy is picked up the event doesn't happen, the Tardis is banned from double appearances (hence the jumps).
D2)Amy grows up with no stars, ducks, cybermen etc...
E3)The Dr picks up Amy
E8)The universe recreated

F4)The Universe lives as normal

So because the Dr fixes things the Universe only has a little bubble of minimal existance.

(the dates of the explosion ought to be at E, and regeneration seems to happen at C7 but next see adult Amy. I suppose the time event could happen retrospectively.
C8 The Universe is healed but because the Tardis needs to be there to be healed it's always being destroyed until it exploded.
E7 The Tardis blows up, destroying the Universe (but then Amy isn't needed)

[edit would this then allow Rory to have a closed time loop-don't think so as have dead and married Rory]

[ 27. June 2010, 23:10: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Another really good episode, IMNSVHO. Rory remaining on guard for centuries was genuinely moving (but the Doctor's remark, "The boy who waited," was reminiscent of, "The boy who lived," - hope they don't go down that line). The reappearance at the wedding was fantastic, and I'm sure there's a sermon in the power of story lurking there somewhere. I also liked the revelation about the nature of the "sun" that had been keeping the earth going all this time - the Tardis is as noble as its owner, it seems. Glad too to have Amy AND Rory stil as companions, and married off (is this the first time we've had married companions?). Finally the teaser for the special was great. At last everything is starting to come together.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
So please explain to me, cos I was really confused .. the Rory that went off with the Doctor and Amy at the end, was that the "real" Rory brought back somehow, or a plastic Nestene recreation with Rory's memories?


 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Yeah, I was wondering what happened to Auton-Centurion Rory - was he 'made human' by the Big Bang or was his existence erased so that Rory Williams was the only Rory to have ever existed?

[ETA - other than that, really loved it]

[ 28. June 2010, 08:52: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
Rory-Auton never existed I think - although some of his memories seem to have jumped track into human Rory. Maybe it's only those memories that Amy was around for.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
That would be a shame - I think the (redeemed?) Auton-Rory guarding his beloved for 1900 years was really sweet.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Not for the first time, I'm going to be a lone voice here. The bit at the wedding where Amy gets up and launches into a passionate speech about how the most important person in her life was missing made me cringe. I don't know what Rory sees in her, but anyone who waits 1900 years for someone like Amy has to be a bit of a mug. She'd drop him like a shot if the Doctor even showed the slightest sign of changing his mind. (Yes, I do know it's just fiction.)

Still, Mr Pond (because that's the way it is) seems to be developing as a more rounded character, so hopefully he'll play a more active role in future episodes, assert himself more, etc etc.

Re married companions, Ian and Barbara were the first pair I think. (Did they actually travel with the Doctor as such?)
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 

quote:

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Re married companions, Ian and Barbara were the first pair I think. (Did they actually travel with the Doctor as such?)

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First marriage of Dr Who companion Susan and resistance man.
I don't think so. It's Ian Chesterton and Barbara Wright and a 60s children's show. But they end up together after the chase. [And Barbara never tries to run away with the Dr. So is a better fiancee even before it's official]

Several get married out Vikki (to become Troilles&Cressida guess that ends well...),

Ben&Polly leave together..

[ 28. June 2010, 18:10: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Was ok. I liked the Romans and I thought the tarnished, dust-laden museum-piece dalek-that-reactivated more scary that the ones with the eye-bleeding spanking-new paint jobs.

Wish someone would tell the Doctor that bow ties are really, srsly uncool except as part of formal evening wear (which DID look good )

Another vote in disfavour of Amy Pond who has become extremely irritating; at one point I wondered if she keeps an onion permanently lodged behind her ear.

And Alex Kingston acts everyone else off the screen, imo.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
I'm kind of glad Amy's real (although I sometimes find it difficult to like her) rather than just like Dawn from Buffy.
 

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Posted by Jenny Ann (# 3131) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm kind of glad Amy's real (although I sometimes find it difficult to like her) rather than just like Dawn from Buffy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hugal:
The implication with the time traveling wrist watch is that it not totally safe and can back fire. Thus using it in a limited way is useful but using it too much is dangerous.

I quite liked the episode. For me the big reset button was pushed and Rory is Rory. The relationships in the TARDIS will have to change.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Off Centre View:
It's cool to have a tardis crew of three for a change.

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Funnily enough, it's not that much of a change.

The First and Second Doctors were never travelling with a single female on screen. (The First Doctor had Susan before the series started of course.)
The Third Doctor was mostly surrounded by UNIT, although he did occasionally travel with only Jo or Sarah Jane.
The Fourth Doctor spends quite a lot of time with only Sarah Jane or Leela or Romana, but he has Harry at the start of his tenure and Adric at the end.
The Fifth Doctor is travelling with at least two companions until his final story. (He never spends a full story with only one companion.)
Eight doesn't travel with anyone on television.
Nine has Jack for a few episodes. (Adam doesn't count.)
Ten has only one companion (if you don't count Mickey, who travels with him only for the story he gets written out in).

So only Six, Seven, and Ten conform to the model for the whole of their careers.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
But where is Ace ?
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Finally convinced me that Matt Smith is great in the role: I wasn't sure until this episode. And glad that his dancing skills are no better than mine.
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Dad dancing taken to the extreme!
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I've just been watching Remembrance of the Daleks and Ace was indeed as impressive as I remember.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
I've just been watching Remembrance of the Daleks and Ace was indeed as impressive as I remember.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
I've just been watching Remembrance of the Daleks and Ace was indeed as impressive as I remember.

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One of the best Dr Who stories ever. And quite clearly part of the Time War between Daleks and the Time Lords.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
One of the best Dr Who stories ever. And quite clearly part of the Time War between Daleks and the Time Lords.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Dad dancing taken to the extreme!

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quote:

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It's a decent budget. I beg for money and more rubber green people and eventually they say OK, you can have a third rubber green person.

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quote:

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Originally posted by El Greco:
Quick question:

What does he mean, in the interview, by "rubber green people"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Ah, Classic Who - how shall I sing thee? I'd recommend watching more Classic Who to almost anyone. Beg, borrow, or in extreme circumstances buy some of the DVDs and treat yourself to the history of British tv drama 1963-1989, in microcosm.

Take a good look at the really old ones, recorded almost live (it had to be a real disaster before they'd do a re-take) in tiny studio sets sometimes no bigger than your living room. Marvel at the old painted backdrops that can even now almost make you believe there's a petrified forest or an Aztec city back there. Listen to how much of the drama has to be conveyed in dialogue simply because the action it's describing would have been impossible to stage. Listen especially to how writers like Anthony Coburn and John Lucarotti use words, in a way that you couldn't possibly now.

But then see also how experimental it all was, simply because there was nothing like it on tv. The floor-level camera angles that made the Daleks look so menacing. The weird and beautiful music scores, like Richard Rodney Bennett's for The Aztecs. The first tentative bits of location filming from The Dalek Invasion of Earth onwards.

Old Who - especially really old Who at its best was magnificent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I even adore the fact that they would keep the cameras running if an actor fluffed a line, because it is much more realistic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I even adore the fact that they would keep the cameras running if an actor fluffed a line, because it is much more realistic.

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Well, quite. There was the memorable occasion when the Fourth Doctor was heard to tell Davros to "spack off!".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
Wish someone would tell the Doctor that bow ties are really, srsly uncool...

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quote:

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Another vote in disfavour of Amy Pond who has become extremely irritating; at one point I wondered if she keeps an onion permanently lodged behind her ear.

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quote:

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As Ariel posted:
Still, Mr Pond (because that's the way it is) seems to be developing as a more rounded character, so hopefully he'll play a more active role in future episodes, assert himself more, etc etc.

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Rory and the Doctor would do well to leave Amy behind and head off together into the mists of time.

This could be the start of a beautiful friendship!
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by +Chad:

quote:

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Another vote in disfavour of Amy Pond who has become extremely irritating; at one point I wondered if she keeps an onion permanently lodged behind her ear.

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And another.

Donna had attitude, Amy Pondlife is an irritating, self-centred little witch who would dump Rory for the Doctor in a heartbeat.

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quote:

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Originally posted by +Chad:
Amy Pondlife is an irritating, self-centred little witch who would dump Rory for the Doctor in a heartbeat.

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quote:

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Originally posted by +Chad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
Wish someone would tell the Doctor that bow ties are really, srsly uncool...

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No, no, no. Eccentric. Individual. More bow ties.

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The Doctor is a time-travelling alien. 'Cool' is not a concept he does well.
That's not quite true. The Third Doctor was cool. For the 1900s. He was stuck in the 1970s.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
Anyone see University Challenge tonight? One of the sets of questions was to identify the actor(s) who played the Doctor based on the version of the theme tune being used at the time.

They got them all right. "See nothing is wasted" said Paxman.

I thought of this thread.
 

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