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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Would UFO's destroy your belief in the Church?
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
According to this news link Sir Winston Churchill banned the publication of a story on a UFO which tailed a Britsh plane which was returning from a combat mission.
Apparently, he did not want widespread public panic.
Not a bad policy during wartime, I suppose.
However, I, for one, am somewhat taken aback by this line from the news Article:
This event should be immediately classified since it would create mass panic among the general population and destroy one's belief in the Church.
So, would the knowledge of UFOs, if proven, destroy your belief in the Church?
Can you still believe the teachings of Christianity, and yet recognize that other life might exist?
Do visitors from other planets in way prove to you that God is not real?
[ 27. December 2014, 18:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
...Do visitors from other planets in way prove to you that God is not real?
As one who doesn't believe there is life anywhere else, no, it would not prove that God is not real. It would, however, convince me I don't know everything.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
So, would the knowledge of UFOs, if proven, destroy your belief in the Church?
Can you still believe the teachings of Christianity, and yet recognize that other life might exist?
Do visitors from other planets in way prove to you that God is not real?
Why?
Yes.
No.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
I don't see how encountering the existence of life on other planets would necessarily destroy one's faith in God, but it might cause some disquiet if such life forms, with vastly superior science and technology, have whittled the gaps down so far that there is no room left for a God to exist.
It would be interesting to study the religion of alien life forms, if, indeed, they have any such thiing (it might be the product of human evolution, and a misfiring of other human mental processes, as Dawkins quite convincingly argues, and might not emerged amongst different species on other planets).
I suspect that even if belief in God is unchallenged by alien life forms, it might seriously undermine one's belief in the Christian Religion. I think it is extremely unlikely that they would have a story about a God who created a paradise and then expelled the life-forms from it because they ate fruit from a certain tree - which God had put there - when tempted by a talking snake - that God had allowed in; and if God then became so enraged at this thing, which he knew would happen, that he decided to torture everyone for ever - except for a tiny elect who would be chosen to be saved from such torment through belief in a man who was both God and the Son of God, born of a virgin, who was killed in order to placate the wrath of his father/self towards those who believe in this story. For those whose faith rests on the truth of a story like that, the experience could be very unsettling indeed.
[ 05. August 2010, 12:55: Message edited by: RadicalWhig ]
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Doc Tor, Evensong, Sir Winston Churchill was an incredibly intelligent man, with a vocabulary around 5 times that of the average educated person. He banned the report and pictures of the UFO for fifty years, on the grounds that it would "destroy one's belief in the church."
If you have not yet read the link included in the OP, may I suggest that you consider doing so before commenting further?
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
For those whose faith rests on the truth of a story like that, the experience could be very unsettling indeed.
There could be other, much more unsettling revelations from aliens.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Destroy one's belief in the Church? What, by vapourising it with a ray gun, so one's left doubting it existed?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
Sir Winston Churchill was an incredibly intelligent man, with a vocabulary around 5 times that of the average educated person.
Er, what's that got to do with anything Doc Tor or Evensong said?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I think it potentially causes problems for Creationist-every-word-of-scripture-as-literal-scientific-truth types, but arguably not for anyone else. I vaguely remember Fr. Gregory (an Orthodox priest) arguing on these boards that he very definitely believed in the existence of intelligent life somewhere in the universe and saw no problem with this from an Orthodox perspective. IIRC the Catholic Church is agnostic on the issue and C. S. Lewis speculated on how the incarnation might work out in non-human societies. If there are intelligent life forms out there then I presume that God has made provision for them just as He has for us.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Churches are institutions; beliefs are...well, beliefs; and God is God.
If I found out that there is other life out there in the universe, it would probably intensify my belief in God.
And I probably would continue to be a member of the RSOF because it is my spiritual home for many reasons other than those having to do with the possibility of extra-terrestrial life.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
What if this advanced alien race/species believed in a deity who became incarnate and based their entire advanced society on the teachings of the Incarnate Deity?
Would this bolster your faith in the Church?
How would Dawkins react?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How would Dawkins react?
I don't think he would fess up to possibly being wrong, put it like that.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
Doc Tor, Evensong, Sir Winston Churchill was an incredibly intelligent man, with a vocabulary around 5 times that of the average educated person. He banned the report and pictures of the UFO for fifty years, on the grounds that it would "destroy one's belief in the church."
If you have not yet read the link included in the OP, may I suggest that you consider doing so before commenting further?
Sir Winston was also a vain, intemperate and fallible man. On the basis of Churchill's repeated failures and subsequent success Peter Mandelson could make a comeback in 20 years time!
UFO's might shake Churchill's belief in the church but how many of us believe in the church? He might have a vast vocabulary but I don't think they were well chosen words.
I can see why this report was banned, everything that did not contribute positively to the war effort was banned at the time, but the existence or otherwise of UFO's doesn't shake my beliefs at all.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
Doc Tor, Evensong, Sir Winston Churchill was an incredibly intelligent man, with a vocabulary around 5 times that of the average educated person. He banned the report and pictures of the UFO for fifty years, on the grounds that it would "destroy one's belief in the church."
If you have not yet read the link included in the OP, may I suggest that you consider doing so before commenting further?
I personally don't believe in the church. I believe in Christ. While it is fun to imagine, it doesn't seem likely that there will be any green men visiting us any time soon. Even at the speed of light covering the distances between habitable planets would take a staggering amount of time. Sure, these super advanced aliens might have other technologies that allow them to travel huge distances, but where is the evidence? Still, that doesn't stop better men like Paul Davies (chair of the SETI: Post-Detection Science and Technology Taskgroup) suggesting that contact would be terminal to Christianity. I disagree though.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
UFO's
Turnip's.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
Doc Tor, Evensong, Sir Winston Churchill was an incredibly intelligent man, with a vocabulary around 5 times that of the average educated person. He banned the report and pictures of the UFO for fifty years, on the grounds that it would "destroy one's belief in the church."
If you have not yet read the link included in the OP, may I suggest that you consider doing so before commenting further?
The article says nothing about why Churchill thought the report and pictures would destroy the Church.
My comments stand
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I've not read the article in the link (my computer here's a bit funky about opening web pages), but I did read about the release of the files and Churchills comment in the paper this morning. Before too many people criticise hischoice of words, the quoted "destroy ones belief in the church" phrase is from an account written by the grandson of one of Churchills bodyguards who overheard a conversation and later reported it to his wife, who later told the story to her grandson. There's some scope there for those not being the exact words used by Churchill.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I suspect that even if belief in God is unchallenged by alien life forms, it might seriously undermine one's belief in the Christian Religion. I think it is extremely unlikely that they would have a story about a God who created a paradise and then expelled the life-forms from it because they ate fruit from a certain tree - which God had put there - when tempted by a talking snake - that God had allowed in; and if God then became so enraged at this thing, which he knew would happen, that he decided to torture everyone for ever - except for a tiny elect who would be chosen to be saved from such torment through belief in a man who was both God and the Son of God, born of a virgin, who was killed in order to placate the wrath of his father/self towards those who believe in this story. For those whose faith rests on the truth of a story like that, the experience could be very unsettling indeed.
How God deals with us and us with Him gives us no indication of how He might deal with other life forms. They might have a completely different relationship with Him, maybe a better, maybe a worse.
I hope that there is other life out there. God is a God of love and creativity, I can't believe He limited Himself to just us.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
...How God deals with us and us with Him gives us no indication of how He might deal with other life forms. They might have a completely different relationship with Him, maybe a better, maybe a worse.
...
Exactly. Just as His relationship with other known life-forms differs - humans, animals, plants, angels. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Well, apparently I'm no slouch in the brains department either, and I don't spend much of my time drunk...
Arthur Clarke thought very much along the same lines as Winston (purportedly) thought, and a few of his books dealt with that subject (most notably Childhood's End). Many years later, Mary Doria Russell won the Clarke Award with The Sparrow, which argued exactly the opposite.
If more politicians read more SF, there'd be fewer stupid decisions.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Still, that doesn't stop better men like Paul Davies (chair of the SETI: Post-Detection Science and Technology Taskgroup) suggesting that contact would be terminal to Christianity.
When I was in the same Dept as him, he was fond of making dogmatic statements that often turned out not to be the case... and that was two decades ago.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Any extra-terrestrial visitors to Earth would, by definition, possess superior technology to us. If it's assumed that superior technology is an indicator of greater intelligence and a higher civilisation then we might be justified in claiming extra-terrestrial visitors would be more intelligent and civilised than us. It's possible that someone raised within the context of a British Empire (where the 'superior' civilisation and technology of British people meant that we were clearly best suited to tell 'inferior' societies how they should be governed and what they should believe) would consider that the teachings of extra-terrestrial visitors would be superior to our own. And, it would therefore follow that if the beliefs of extra-terrestrials contradict the beliefs of the Church then people would abandon the beliefs of the Church for the beliefs of ET. That is a reasonably logical progression of thought.
It does, of course, rely on several assumptions that may be completely false. Superior technology doesn't necessarily mean superior intelligence or civilisation. It certainly doesn't mean that the 'superior' race automatically governs the 'inferior', and post-Empire Britain is probably much less inclined to believe that although emerging imperialistic societies may be more inclined to believe that. And, of course, it assumes that the beliefs of IT (which we can't know simply from apparent observations of extra-terrestrial craft) would contradict the Church.
The beliefs of the Church have certainly survived in the face of a whole barrage of alternative beliefs held by intelligent and civilised human beings. Is there any reason to think that peoples agreement with Christian teaching would be undermined more by the teachings of extra-terrestrials than it would be by the teachings of atheists, muslims, hindus, assorted 'new age' religions etc?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
UFOs implies life on other planets.
Life on other planets would DEEPEN my belief in God because:
a) he would be greater than we previously thought because he loves and cares for other life forms in many other places;
b) he would be less wasteful - to assume life exists on one marginal planet like ours and that he created entire, huge galaxies solely so that we could exist seems like waste.
As Sydney Carter put it:
Who can tell what other cradle,
High above the milky way
Still may rock the King of Heaven
On another Christmas Day?
Who can count how many crosses,
Still to come or long ago,
Crucify the King of Heaven?
Holy is the name I know.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
b) he would be less wasteful - to assume life exists on one marginal planet like ours and that he created entire, huge galaxies solely so that we could exist seems like waste.
I think it could be taken as an illustration of God's extravagant love for humanity, and therefore quite like the idea that we're alone (though it wouldn't bother me much if we weren't). The idea that its wasteful for God to have created everything just for us seems a bit like arguing that monogamy is wasteful because of all those other people you could be shagging.
.
[ 05. August 2010, 15:28: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
What leo said - plus, I love those verses.
Actually, the thought that we may be the only life out there makes me less likely to believe in a God who would create the unimaginably huge universe, then leave it barren of creations that can appreciate its beauty, apart from humanity, stuck in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Milky Way. I don't think anthropocentric hubris is a good argument for much, apart from the necessity of deflating our collective ego.
- Chris.
PS: we'll never realistically know one way or the other if there is life in Andromeda, without some Contact-like fictional wormhole device. Any FTL alien turning up would shake my faith in science more than God!
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
For those whose faith rests on the truth of a story like that, the experience could be very unsettling indeed.
There could be other, much more unsettling revelations from aliens.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Actually, the thought that we may be the only life out there makes me less likely to believe in a God who would create the unimaginably huge universe, then leave it barren of creations that can appreciate its beauty, apart from humanity, stuck in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Milky Way
Given that God apparently chose to live amongst humans as a peasant in an obscure corner of the Roman Empire, he may have a bit of a thing for unfashionable backwaters.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
quote:
Any extra-terrestrial visitors to Earth would, by definition, possess superior technology to us.
You mean...... they didn't come across all those light years of the expansive universe with their incredible technology and then........crash..........in Roswell?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
People seem to be assuming that proof of extraterrestrial life would have to involve such creatures coming here and meeting us face to face. It seems much more likely that the first such evidence (if and when) will involve long-range observations by telescopes or the reception of radio/TV images. (A third possibility is that we go there and meet them.)
I agree with various other people: I do not see how the existence of such life would have any implications for my belief in God. Such a discovery would give us a larger, richer world, more to learn and appreciate.
On the other hand, suppose it could be proven (and I have no idea how) that Earth is the only planet anywhere with life on it. That would have a feel to it of smoking-gun evidence.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
quote:
Any extra-terrestrial visitors to Earth would, by definition, possess superior technology to us.
You mean...... they didn't come across all those light years of the expansive universe with their incredible technology and then........crash..........in Roswell?
I can think of only two reasons for space aliens to seek out this backwater planet. To enslave us, or to export chocolate.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I don't see how encountering the existence of life on other planets would necessarily destroy one's faith in God, but it might cause some disquiet if such life forms, with vastly superior science and technology, have whittled the gaps down so far that there is no room left for a God to exist.
It would be interesting to study the religion of alien life forms, if, indeed, they have any such thiing (it might be the product of human evolution, and a misfiring of other human mental processes, as Dawkins quite convincingly argues, and might not emerged amongst different species on other planets).
I suspect that even if belief in God is unchallenged by alien life forms, it might seriously undermine one's belief in the Christian Religion. I think it is extremely unlikely that they would have a story about a God who created a paradise and then expelled the life-forms from it because they ate fruit from a certain tree - which God had put there - when tempted by a talking snake - that God had allowed in; and if God then became so enraged at this thing, which he knew would happen, that he decided to torture everyone for ever - except for a tiny elect who would be chosen to be saved from such torment through belief in a man who was both God and the Son of God, born of a virgin, who was killed in order to placate the wrath of his father/self towards those who believe in this story. For those whose faith rests on the truth of a story like that, the experience could be very unsettling indeed.
Erm... surely one could say precisely the same about the discovery of America? That doesn't seem to have dented Christianity too badly...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Redlac
Apprentice
# 12725
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Posted
I look at this question in two ways, through what the Bible says and what science has to say.
The Bible shows me that angels were not created on earth. So therefore otherworldly beings exist. Some are naughty, some are nice.
Looking at it with science, the chances of anything coming from Mars may be a million to one, but the chance that life other than us is out there somewhere is pretty good. The theories are that they could be naughty, or they could be.. I think you see where I'm going with that.
In my thinking, God is a very creative being. If he made intelligent beings other than humans that would not be very world shaking for me. Their existence would not disprove God's.
The Church as a whole would have to do some serious thinking though if they did show up..
Posts: 16 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Jun 2007
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
So, would the knowledge of UFOs, if proven, destroy your belief in the Church?
How could it? Indeed, how would the two in any way possibly be related? A UFO is an unidentified flying object - simply a flying object that has not been identified: nothing more, nothing less, and certainly not a faith-challenging matter.
The existence of UFOs, therefore, doesn't seem to be something that requires proof. It's a simple fact of life that there will be some things that we can't readily identify. Anybody who has ever been confronted with the microscpoic hamburgers at MacDonald's will know what I'm talking about.
quote:
Can you still believe the teachings of Christianity, and yet recognize that other life might exist?
Do visitors from other planets in way prove to you that God is not real?
Ok. Now these are quite different questions from the first one. My answers are yes and no because I am a Christian.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What an oddly phrased question.
As Fermi's paradox applies and is the greatest material proof of God there can possibly be until His return, then the detection of oxygen in the atmosphere of an extrasolar planet would mean that eternal matter does life and life does mind, there would be NO material gaps for God.
I'd just have to go on faith, rather than the absolute scientific certainty of God I also have.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What an oddly phrased question.
As Fermi's paradox applies and is the greatest material proof of God there can possibly be until His return, then the detection of oxygen in the atmosphere of an extrasolar planet would mean that eternal matter does life and life does mind, there would be NO material gaps for God.
I'd just have to go on faith, rather than the absolute scientific certainty of God I also have.
What an oddly-phrased reply! I've never heard the Fermi paradox described in those terms. If your faith is so predicated on extraterrestrial life not existing, could I ask where in the bible, tradition or reason your get that from?
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
i am tempted at the prospect of answering the unposed question of whether life can exist on other planets. Life would appear to need water - without which no life can exist. Our planet is at a 23.44 degrees (I think) which not only allows for 'seasons' but also for tidal shifts which I think in turn stops water from becoming a stagnant mess of certain death. The seasons mean that wind shifts also, allowing for seasons of growth and the movement of water.
We are 91.5 million miles from the sun - an exact distance which permits life to flourish. A degree closer and we would burn up - a degree further away and we would freeze too much.
We are roughly 900 million miles from the edge of our solar system. If I were able to travel at the speed of light (roughly 300 millions miles per second) I could reach it in 3 seconds. It has been estimated that it would take around 4.5 billions years, travelling at the speed of light to reach the farthest point of the universe to our solar system (which isn't actually that close to the epicentre according to recent reports in studies relating to the milky way). If there is life on other planets - even if they are able to travel at the speed of light, it seems unlikely that they would be able to reach us before they would die.
If there were life on other planets it seems highly likely it would resemble us rather closely. It seems like the universe is pre-programmed to produce life in our image, with it's limited resources and exacting requirements. Of course, Stephen Hawkings would disagree with me....
[ 06. August 2010, 00:42: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Keromaru
Apprentice
# 15757
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Posted
Yeah, I have trouble taking this question seriously. It's almost a non-sequitur. The existence of God has nothing to do with my beliefs about the existence of aliens.* Anyway, if God made us -- or made the processes that built us -- then surely he's capable of building life elsewhere.
* They do, but they haven't visited or contacted us yet. I trust SETI on the matter more than Whitley Streiber.
Posts: 26 | From: Diocese of East Tennessee | Registered: Jul 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The issue is dealt with reasonably well in one of Poul Anderson's stories. The church, after the discovery of other intelligent lifeforms, concludes that Jesus was sent to save mankind and that there's no inherent reason to conclude that other species require the same salvation.
Of course, the same conclusion is also inherent in C S Lewis' science fiction trilogy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
fletcher, are we really 3 light seconds from the outer edge of the solar system? I thought the sun was 8 light minutes away? Surely we're closer to the sun than to the edge of the solar system.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
or to export chocolate.
Millions for defense, not an ounce in tribute!
Unless they want Hershey's, they can have all that they want. Would argue against their superiority.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
FC,
As mousethief suggests, your figures are a bit off. The speed of light is just under 300 million metres per second. Einsteinian physics can allow for FTL travel, with assumptions. Life as we know it does require a rather narrow set of conditions, however current theories allow for the possibility in a much greater variety of conditions than previously thought. Have to run, more later if anyone wishes to continue the tangent.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Belief in the Church? My belief in the Church is along the lines of the Texan, who when asked if he believed in infant baptism, said:
"Believe in it? Hell, I've seen it done!"
I'm not sure how UFOs could affect this.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
or to export chocolate.
Millions for defense, not an ounce in tribute!
Unless they want Hershey's, they can have all that they want. Would argue against their superiority.
Humorously, somebody on another site today called me a bigot because I spoke condescendingly of Hershey's chocolate. As it turns out I was denigrating a whole race of people (Oompa-Loompas?) who work in the Hershey factories. Shoot, I hope I don't have to eat any of that shit to regain my egalitarian cred.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cosmic dance
Shipmate
# 14025
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Posted
Hey leo, you might be interested in another poetic attempt on this idea. It is by someone called Alice Meynell and starts:
With this ambiguous earth
His dealings have been told to us. These abide:
The signal to a maid, the human birth,
The lesson and the young Man crucified.
....and after several more stanzas winds up with;
Nor, in our little day,
May His devices with the heavens be guessed,
His pilgrimmage to thread the Milky Way
Or His bestowals there be manifest.
But in the eternities,
Doubtless we shall compare together, hear
A million alien Gospels, in what guise
He trod the Pleiades, the Lyre, the Bear.
O, be prepared my soul!
To read the inconceivable, to scan
The myriad forms of God those stars unroll,
When, in our turn, we show to them a Man.
Not necessarily Great Art, but a nice idea to play with.
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"No method, no teacher, no guru..." Van Morrison.
Posts: 233 | From: godzone | Registered: Aug 2008
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
FC,
As mousethief suggests, your figures are a bit off. The speed of light is just under 300 million metres per second.
It's about 4 light hours to Pluto's orbit at our closest approach (although Pluto, the wandering demoted-planet that it is, sometimes comes inside Neptune's orbit. 1 AU = 499 light seconds or 8'19", says Google).
Fletcher Christian, that sounds like the Rate Earth Hypothesis. Personally, I don't have a lot of problem with the Fermi Paradox: the Drake Equation is no more than a rule of thumb, and any sensible treatment of the uncertainties in it would certainly not have intelligent life within shouting distance, in all probability.
I think people seem to forget how big the universe actually is (although this might be for their own good), and to forget the dimension of time. Intelligent life elsewhere might have flourished and died before we came down from the trees, might arise millions of years from now, or might occur in a different galaxy - in all of which cases we'd be none the wiser. Just imagine another civilisation in the opposite spiral arm of this galaxy, wondering why we haven't contacted them yet, in the late Cretaceous.
We might have relinquished geocentricism, but I still think humanity is in great need of getting over itself. Why should all intelligent life in the rest of the universe be beating a path to our door?
In any case, Hawking was right. It'd be much better for us if they didn't.
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
quote:
If there were life on other planets it seems highly likely it would resemble us rather closely.
Even on our planet there are millions of species that look nothing like us, and in fact we are the only one out of those millions who possess an advanced form of intelligence and communicative ability. If there is life elsewhere, it is much more likely to be like bacteria or lichens or something, than something humanoid.
I do agree though that the existence of some sort of intelligent life does pose problems for traditional Christian theology, which says that this planet and our species play some central role in God's divine plan and that he became incarnate as one of us and lived here and requires certain beliefs ad behaviours from us.
A Vatican astronomer was quoted in the press a couple of years ago on this topic, opining that the explanation could be that we are the only "lost sheep" of the universe and other intelligent beings remained in "full friendship" with him so do not need saving.
astronomer
I do think it is an interesting point though also to ask what beings are sufficiently intelligent for God to take a special interest in them and require them to have the right kind of relationship with him etc? I take it as read that he is not concerned over the morals and beliefs of slugs, for example, but what about dolphins or rooks or chimpanzees or Campbell's monkeys, which are clever enough to have quite advanced learning or communicating or problem-solving (even tool-using) abilities? And what about severely mentally-disabled humans - are they responsible or not? At what point is a being sufficiently self-aware and responsible for its thoughts and actions for it to need religion?
[ 06. August 2010, 09:58: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
somebody on another site today
Um, what? There's another site?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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