|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Eccles: Liturgy of the "Irvingite" Catholic Apostolic Church
|
scribbler
Shipmate
# 12268
|
Posted
Diarmaid MacCulloch's "Christianity" includes a brief section on the short-lived and colorful Catholic Apostolic Church (wiki) and mentioned that it had one of the most elaborate liturgies seen in Western Christianity. Wikipedia has some information on their liturgical practices, but I was wondering if any shipmates knew more. It looks like Oxford University Press released a book on the CAC in 1992, but it's a bit expensive for my casual interest.
[ 01. January 2015, 07:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posts: 309 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
|
Posted
Charismatic fundamentalists with incense.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
While there's truth in that, I'm not sure they were necessarily Fundamentalists.
Their genesis came from within the Albury Conferences (which also begat one part of the Brethren movement) and the Church of Scotland - although I suspect that root got ditched fairly early on. Certainly they developed a very elaborate liturgy which may have owed something to the Oxford Movement (others will need to correct me here). I guess that charismata occupied a routinised position within that liturgy - far from the lengthy extempore tongues-rants of Irving's services while he was still at the Caledonian Chapel.
One aspect of the CAC was the restoration of the "Apostolate" as a precursor to Christ's second coming. These were both unique and irreplaceable and were the only people who could ordain priests, hence there were no more ordinations after the last Apostle died in 1901 and the CAC was inevitably set upon a course of decline and closure.
I'm afraid I don't know more than that; the whole CAC sounds a peculiarly English (I use my words carefully) form of battiness, yet I am sure there was a real spiritual authenticity in it as well. I think I'd have fitted in quite well, in fact!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
I used to have an Irvingite Prayerbook years ago and the thing that sticks in my mind most is the number of orders for blessings of places and things. These included IIRC 'Blessing of a chamber residence' - which I take to mean a bedsit or lodger's room, and perhaps tells you something about the social status of some of their members.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
There are a few hints at least in the "Congregations and Worship" section of this paper. Note that Nonconformist and Presbyterian forms of liturgy were soon dispensed with.
[ 08. June 2012, 15:53: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilyswinburne
Shipmate
# 12934
|
Posted
Brigid Brophy has a description of an Irvingite liturgy in one of her essays - collected in "Don't Never Forget" (I think?)
Lily
Posts: 126 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
The CAC also collected under its umbrella both some Bavarian Catholic groups who could not accept the doctrine of papal infallibility as well as a number of Lutheran groups.Some of these in turn declined to accept that with the death of the 'Apostles' no further ordinations could take place.Their groups now exist as the New Apostolic church which is to be found in a number of countries.Ihave seen them in Scotland,France and in certain parts of Germany.
I've never been to one of their services but they have at Communion round hosts in the Catholic style which have some wine within them.The Hosts are kept in a ciborium,but how exactly this fits in with the eucharistic liturgy I don't know.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
This may be of some interest.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
Thanks, Michael! Great memory. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Thanks, Michael! Great memory.
You're very kind.
Some would say, "No life". ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
The writer Gavin Maxwell's family were members. There are some interesting asides on the Irvingites in his autobiography "The Rocks Remain".
I'm not so interested in their liturgical practices as what I would term "their general spiritual weirdness". The heresies which they recycled are, I believe, mutating and being re-recycled by contemporary weird sects.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
T.B.Cherubim
Shipmate
# 11582
|
Posted
Groups of CACs continue to exist in some European countries. In the Netherlands the (male) clergy of the C of England's diocese in Europe minister to them, as they have no clergy of their own. Young people continue to be prepared for confirmation which our diocese in
Europe bishops administer to them.
--------------------
Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!
www.eurobishop.blogspot.com
Posts: 101 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
|
Posted
The Paddington church in Maida Avenue, London is still open. It's a very fine and well-maintained building by J. L. Pearson, There is a service every Sunday. I have been there a couple of times, but not for several years. The form used was a Litany with hymns and scripture readings and (I think) part of an old sermon.
The Central Church in Gordon Square ('Christ the King' - a name given by the Anglican University Chaplaincy when it rented the building) is still the property of the CAC and houses the Trustees' office and a library. Prayer meetings are (or were until recently) held there.
[ 09. June 2012, 07:51: Message edited by: Sacred London ]
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
As well as the large Catholic Apostolic church in Edinburgh there was an earlier CAC in the same part of town in Broughton St.The building is still standing and is used for commercial purposes.The larger church is now called the Mansfield Traquair centre used for events such as conferences or indeed weddings and banquets in the nave of the former church,decorated with murals by Phoebe Traquair.While the elegant baldacchino still remains,the altar was gifted many years ago to the nearby St Mary's metropolitan cathedral (RC),and replaced the dismanteled altar under the baldacchino of that church.The bishop's cathedra was also gifted to the cathedral.While it is sited in a prominent place in the cathedral sanctuary I have never seen the present cardinal archbishop actually seated on it.
(However it may be used today when Cardinal O'Brien ordains a new auxiliary bishop,Rev Stephen Robson as bishop of Tununna - I think that is the name of the titular diocese - and there is bound to be a good number of bishops looking for a seat in the cathedral - the laity have been told they may have to stand).
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
. . . The bishop's cathedra was also gifted to the cathedral..
In the CAC it would have been known as the Angel's Throne.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Thank you, Michael Astley, for reminding us of the Catholic Apostolic thread which I started so looooooong ago.....!!
The Mansfield Traquair Trust produced, some years ago, a short (15-20 minutes) CD of several Catholic Apostlic musical settings for various parts of their liturgy. I don't know if this is still available, but it would be worthwhile enquiring. My own copy (sadly) appears to have been damaged somehow, and is no longer playable.
The Catholic Apostolic liturgy was derived from Anglican, Roman and Orthodox sources, and the Eucharist as celebrated in full has been described as being 'of sombre magnificence' - certainly, the surviving churches would seem to echo this!
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
Perhaps the liturgy might be revived as a CofE fresh expression?
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Baptist Trainfan has sparked a new train of thought in my mind ... what did non-conformist worship (Baptist, Congregational, Presbyterian etc) look like outside of Methodism in the mid-19th century?
We're used to the post-Moody & Sankey version.
I would imagine it to have been quite different before that.
Perhaps there's scope there for a new thread - but whilst I get the impression that non-conformist worship around 1900 wasn't that different to what one would have encountered in 1950, 1970 or even the 1990s and 2000s in some quarters - I would imagine it would have been quite different in the 1830s and '40s. I suspect the current format arose from the 1850s onwards.
Any non-conformist liturgical experts out there who can help us?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
|
Posted
I was told that the CAC disused incense as a sign of mourning after the death of the last apostle. Also that their affection for liturgy (they originated in the Church of Sctland parish in London)was because some of the apostles were sent to inform crowned heads - the pope the tsar and others -of the re-establishment of the church. They were impressed by the liturgies they attended and wanted the same for their own church. (One wonders what Mr Irving thought of this - but he was not an apostle!)
The German adherents could not accept the ending of the apostolate largely because their attraction to the CAC was based very much on the authority of the apostles.
L'eglise catholique apostlique in Canada has no connection with the CAC - it is an episcopus vagans defection from the RC church desiring greater liberality towards gays and female priests. I discovered this on a recent visit to St Peter's Church, Sherbrooke Quebec (where I served my first curacy)- this church had been sold to L'e C A on condition the anglicans could have one service every Sunday. An indication of the successful ethnic cleansing of Quebec!
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
I didn't see them on the old linked thread, so apologies if it has been posted: the Internet Archive has digitized texts of their earliest liturgical books and hymnals.
http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Catholic+Apostolic+Church%22
(Sorry, for some reason the URL code refused to work)
A little more digging also produced this interesting and very detailed early work (1852), which is not marked as from the CAC, but actually is.
Posts: 434 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Perhaps the liturgy might be revived as a CofE fresh expression?
You can't get the staff nowadays. The CathAps had a huge number of jobs - angels, archangels and the like - a minimum of about 30 robed 'clergy'
Were they all paid, or were most of them honours bestowed on members of the congregation, a way they could all take part? And were they all essential for CAC validity, or was there a sort of equivalent of a Low Mass or an 8am celebration?
Were these roles only open to men, or were some open to women?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
|
Posted
We used to have a number of Cath Aps worshipping in our church. They were very devout and very generous financially (tithing).
They were also quite secretive, but once I discovered (in an uncomprehending sort of way) their identity they were happy to invite me to a service at the (still open) Paddington church (see above).
They were very opposed to the ministry of women, but keen on having them 'churched'.
My impression is that apart from some of the senior clergy (angels and priests), most of their ministers had had other occupations.
In some ways they reminded me of Brethren. Despite their liturgical worship (in the past) they didn't really have a catholic 'ethos' and tended to choose rather high and dry Prayer Book churches to affiliate to rather than Anglo-Catholic ones.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Thanks, Michael! Great memory.
You're very kind.
Beat me to it! Yes, that was a great thread, although the people with personal connections never stayed around for very long unfortunately...
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Perhaps the liturgy might be revived as a CofE fresh expression?
You can't get the staff nowadays. The CathAps had a huge number of jobs - angels, archangels and the like - a minimum of about 30 robed 'clergy'
Were they all paid, or were most of them honours bestowed on members of the congregation, a way they could all take part? And were they all essential for CAC validity, or was there a sort of equivalent of a Low Mass or an 8am celebration?
I suspect they were mostly ordained into minor orders, something which tends to happen to breakaway churches where there are more chiefs and than Indianans.
I don;t think they had plain celebrations - like the Orthodox, every liturgy is full on.
However, what little I know comes from peter Anson's book about church furnishings, a chat with someone who knew the CathAp community here in Bristol and my previous incumbent, whose PhD was about CathAp liturgy.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
