|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Catholic Church Official Stance Question
|
NoSuchThingAsNothing
Apprentice
# 16382
|
Posted
Could I please ask a question, no judgement being asked for or given? Is it the official Catholic Church's stance that noone except members of the Catholic Church go to Heaven? I was just wondering the other day about ex-communication and what the Church believed it was doing when it ex-communicated someone, condemning them to hell or just to an earthly life away from them? Is there any coming back from it? Not sure if this is the right place to ask. I couldn't see any other question threads.
[ 05. January 2015, 01:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posts: 34 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
NoSuchThingAsNothing
Apprentice
# 16382
|
Posted
If there's a more appropriate place to ask this please delete this thread and let me know. I know Purgatory is more for debate than questions.
Posts: 34 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
|
Posted
That isn't an accurate reflection of the RCC stance now. Others can elaborate more I'm sure.
--------------------
Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
five
Shipmate
# 14492
|
Posted
It also isn't an accurate stance of ex-communication. Ex-communication means you can't have communion, ie, the Eucharistic feast. However, you can (and it is hoped you will) turn up for mass and repent and atone so that you can return to full communion with the Church. Some ex-communicants will want to do this, some won't, it is the hope of the Church that all will. But none of it has to do with whether or not you're going to Heaven.
My understanding of the official Church stance is that we have no way of knowing who goes to Heaven and who does not apart from the Saints, who of course let us know they are in Heaven by the performance of miracles. This doesn't mean people other than Saints don't go to Heaven, just that we have no proof otherwise. Similarly, while we know there is Hell, we do not know who has gone there. And maybe some have not arrived yet - they may be in Purgatory being cleansed of sins to arrive in Heaven pure, as all must be in Heaven.
So if we can't tell you who among the faithful goes and who doesn't, it would be equally be impossible to say who goes who is not among the faithful.
Then again, that's my understanding, which may or may not be the official doctrine. It has been a rather long time since my catechism classes!
--------------------
And Jesus said 'the greatest commandments are these: Love the Lord your God with 10% of your time and energy, and Pamphlet your neighbour with tracts' - Birdseye
Posts: 1250 | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I can't quote chapter and verse, but from what I've read on-line the RC Church is far more open to the possibility of people from other religions, as well as Christianity, being 'saved' than many Protestant groups I could mention.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Excommunication is meant to be a desperate last measure to try to rescue you, mainly by shocking you into sense about whatever evil you (this is all general "you") may have fallen into and are refusing to let hold of. It's not intended to be a statement that we (general we) want you in hell, or that we hope you die and all your toys get taken away.
To be sure, there ARE those who are evil themselves and misuse excommunication just as they do everything else in the world. I've been a victim of this (though not in the RCC). But the abuse of something doesn't make its proper use a no-go area.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
Here's the official Catechism of the Catholic Church (promulgated by John Paul II) on other Christian denominations: CCC 817-819 & CCC 836-838, as well as other religions: CCC 839-845. The general (re-)interpretation of "outside the Church there is no salvation" is given in CCC 846-848. If you are looking for declarations at the highest level of authority, check out Lumen Gentium, paragraphs 15 & 16 of Vatican II.
The basic picture is this: We should follow God in Christ. Christ has instituted the RCC to allow this to happen (in the opinion of the RCC). Thus our wish to follow Christ should lead us to become full members of the RCC in good standing. However, for various reasons and in various degrees people are ignorant of this role of the RCC. A Christian of another denomination may believe (falsely, in the opinion of the RCC) that he follows Christ better in that denomination, a Muslim may believe (more falsely, in the opinion of the RCC) that he is obeying God better in Islam, and some people on this earth still may not even have heard of Christ. To the extent that these are "honest" errors due to circumstance, people are not culpable for them and hence their salvation is not threatened. This can be the case even for say a Protestant fully aware of the RCC: by historical circumstance that person may be in a position where in spite of knowing RC claims, they may honestly be mistaken about their truth value. They may even be completely closed to all attempts to change their mind and still not culpable (so-called "invincible ignorance").
However, this is not to say rejection of the RCC has no importance. It is in principle "grave matter" to reject the RCC, thus if it is done with "full knowledge" and "deliberate consent", then this becomes a mortal sin which endangers one's salvation. While the RCC has never stated about any human being that they are definitely doomed to hell, it is hence a fair guess that those who have brought about large scale schism and heresy (say Arius or Luther) are in considerable danger of hell on account of separating from the RCC and misleading many others alone.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
That there can be no hint of irony in invincible ignorance is most droll.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
The Pre-Vatican 2 Catholicism was what my mother conveyed to me in my early childhood, and aspects of it messed me up i believe, but in fairness i must say that she was very clear that anyone could go to heaven, not just Catholics, or Christians for that matter.
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
What about unregenerate Satanists even after postmortem evangelism ?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
We have no way ofseeing into the minds and understandings of 'unregenerate Satanists'
what people are on the outside is not necessarily the way that God sees them.He is the one who decides who goes to Heaven - assuming that there is both a God and a Heaven.
The RCC would claim to point the way to Heaven but even the pope is not the final judge and arbiter of who goes to Heaven - even if St Peter is waiting at the Pearly Gates.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gregory's Girl
Shipmate
# 16275
|
Posted
FWIW, I remember one of my university lecturers(an authority on the Crusades and himself a practising Catholic) explaining that the rationale of the Inquisition going so hell-for-leather (pun intended??) after first-generation Protestants was that their children, having been brought up in error, would be less culpable for their beliefs so such things had to be stamped out before it reached that stage.
On a less serious note, there is the joke which I probably heard in Anglican circles:
St Peter is showing a new (Protestant) arrival round Heaven. The newbie notices a wall and hears people behind it so he asks: "who's behind that wall?
St Peter replies (whispering): it's the Catholics. They think they're the only ones here!"
Though IMHO it's the Evos I've met who expect that Heaven will be uni-denominational.
--------------------
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering.
There's a crack, a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in. L.Cohen
Posts: 61 | From: Surrey | Registered: Mar 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
That's not the question Forthview.
And of what am I invincibly ignorant ?
That nearly all Poles, the French, Iberians, Italians, Irish, Walloons, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Romanians and half the Germans et al are not ?
What about the Orthodox ?
That's a LOT of lavatories I get to clean.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And of what am I invincibly ignorant? That nearly all Poles, the French, Iberians, Italians, Irish, Walloons, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Romanians and half the Germans et al are not? What about the Orthodox? That's a LOT of lavatories I get to clean.
I would say the main thing you are ignorant about is that the faith does not revolve around what you think and believe, and that it is not ultimately you standing alone before God. Basically, your faith requires a Copernican revolution.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I would say the main thing you are ignorant about is that the faith does not revolve around what you think and believe
Eh? Then why does the RCC put such an emphasis on dogma?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I would say the main thing you are ignorant about is that the faith does not revolve around what you think and believe
Eh? Then why does the RCC put such an emphasis on dogma?
You are assuming the wrong emphasis in what I said there. Not: "The faith does not revolve around what you think and believe.", but rather "The faith does not revolve around what you think and believe." Clearer?
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
(quote bold removed to preserve the emphasis) quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You are assuming the wrong emphasis in what I said there. Not: "The faith does not revolve around what you think and believe.", but rather "The faith does not revolve around what you think and believe." Clearer?
Not really. Are you saying it doesn't matter what I (or any given individual) think and believe? In which case why bother having a profession of faith at baptism?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Are you saying it doesn't matter what I (or any given individual) think and believe? In which case why bother having a profession of faith at baptism?
The point is that you are making a given profession of faith, something provided to you as requiring your agreement. You are not simply being asked to say whatever you happen to believe in. Of course, you may well believe exactly what the profession of faith suggests, in which case the difference is subtle. When you don't, it's glaringly obvious. It is this difference - sometimes subtle, sometimes obvious - which is always there in the background for RCs and Orthodox, because it is a difference the Church has made, makes, and will make. For Protestants there are basically only some remnants left over from Church history. You may still say a particular, historic profession of faith. Or maybe not: in the end that's between you and God. For RCs and Orthodox that is not so. It's always between you, the Church, and God.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
.. that it is not ultimately you standing alone before God.
IngoB, thanks for your input. I always appreciate your thoughts.
Can you expound on the above? It happens to coincide with things I've been pondering of late. In what since is salvation a solitary experience and in what sense is it a corporate experience? (I hope that this is not too much thread drift.)
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
|
Posted
Indeed.
That is the major flaw in the otherwise excellent film A Man for all Seasons, where Thomas More is made to say "The important thing is not that I believe it, but that I believe it". That precisely is what Thomas More would not have said and was in fact fighting against.
--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The point is that you are making a given profession of faith, something provided to you as requiring your agreement. You are not simply being asked to say whatever you happen to believe in.
I am 57 years old, and it has taken me until now to grasp this. With my "free thinking" Protestant background I always thought that is something isn't obvious to me, then no one can ask me to believe it. It's only now, that I've taken on the discipline of being Catholic that I realise that it isn't about what I believe. Within faith taditions such as the Catholic and Orthodox churches, discipline is as important to belief as it is to any other aspect of spirituality, such as prayer, fasting or fulfilling one's obligation to partake of the Sacraments. I think this is one of the most important things that has been lost in the Protestant tradition.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I think this is one of the most important things that has been lost in the Protestant tradition.
And I think that no longer having to believe whatever the church tells you to believe, and instead being free to work out your own faith in fear and trembling throughout your lifetime's walk with God, was one of the greatest steps forward Christianity has ever taken. It may not have been popular with the heirarchy, of course, but then encouraging people to think for themselves has never been popular with heirarchies.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The point is that you are making a given profession of faith, something provided to you as requiring your agreement. You are not simply being asked to say whatever you happen to believe in.
I am 57 years old, and it has taken me until now to grasp this. With my "free thinking" Protestant background I always thought that is something isn't obvious to me, then no one can ask me to believe it. It's only now, that I've taken on the discipline of being Catholic that I realise that it isn't about what I believe. Within faith taditions such as the Catholic and Orthodox churches, discipline is as important to belief as it is to any other aspect of spirituality, such as prayer, fasting or fulfilling one's obligation to partake of the Sacraments. I think this is one of the most important things that has been lost in the Protestant tradition.
Sorry, but it is about what we understand through our own study of God's word along with accountability to the church. Cults gain followers by insisting that it's followers accept what it teaches without question. I've never understood any church that is uncomfortable with those who ask questions or seek to verify what others are teaching them.
The RCC and every other denomination have made grave errors and have lead the followers who trust leadership (look up history on some popes and protestant founders) down the road to ruin.
One of my favorite teachers at a missions school I was on staff at used to throw out some outrageous statements just to see if any of the students had the gumption to call him on it, either during that class session or at the next session. You'd be amazed how few ever did. His point was to get students to verify teaching on their own.
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I think this is one of the most important things that has been lost in the Protestant tradition.
And I think that no longer having to believe whatever the church tells you to believe, and instead being free to work out your own faith in fear and trembling throughout your lifetime's walk with God, was one of the greatest steps forward Christianity has ever taken. It may not have been popular with the heirarchy, of course, but then encouraging people to think for themselves has never been popular with heirarchies.
Or in other words, it's all about me.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Or in other words, it's all about me.
Not all, no. Just the bit that pertains to me.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I think this is one of the most important things that has been lost in the Protestant tradition.
And I think that no longer having to believe whatever the church tells you to believe, and instead being free to work out your own faith in fear and trembling throughout your lifetime's walk with God, was one of the greatest steps forward Christianity has ever taken. It may not have been popular with the heirarchy, of course, but then encouraging people to think for themselves has never been popular with heirarchies.
Or in other words, it's all about me.
No, it's about Truth.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Or in other words, it's all about me.
Not all, no. Just the bit that pertains to me.
Truth and me are not mutually exclusive.
You cannot have the one without the other.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
NoSuchThingAsNothing
Apprentice
# 16382
|
Posted
I would have thought with love, love your neighbour, love your enemy, love the Son, love your Father, it's all about me being all about you neighbour, you enemy, you Jesus, you Father.
(interesting reading, thanks Ingo)
[ 11. May 2011, 12:35: Message edited by: NoSuchThingAsNothing ]
Posts: 34 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
No, it's about Truth.
Yes, but whose truth? This is why there are thousands of denominations which could loosely be called Protestant, ranging from the theologically conservative to quite outlandish. If we are all free to interpret out own truth, we will all come up with something a bit different. The Bible is not always easy to interpret, and it certainly doesn't plainly interpret itself. I have come to believe that an authority, the magisterium, is necessary to give coherance to what we believe. A perpetuating schism is the only possible result of us all seeking our own truth from Scripture.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fugue
Shipmate
# 16254
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
No, it's about Truth.
Yes, but whose truth? This is why there are thousands of denominations which could loosely be called Protestant, ranging from the theologically conservative to quite outlandish. If we are all free to interpret out own truth, we will all come up with something a bit different. The Bible is not always easy to interpret, and it certainly doesn't plainly interpret itself. I have come to believe that an authority, the magisterium, is necessary to give coherance to what we believe. A perpetuating schism is the only possible result of us all seeking our own truth from Scripture.
It would be lovely if this worked out in practice, but unfortunately, as Galileo might tell you if he were still around, the teaching of the magisterium doesn't necessarily guarantee coherence in matters of belief. Which is why blind obedience to it is not, to my mind, a good thing.
Posts: 126 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fugue:
the teaching of the magisterium doesn't necessarily guarantee coherence in matters of belief.
Or truth, for that matter.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Yes, but whose truth?
Truth doesn't belong to anyone.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Tell me what my faith is IngoB. And how you know what it is.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
|
Posted
Somehow I feel at home on this thread.
(note sig below)
--------------------
Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
|
Posted
About a decade ago I edited a magazine and for fun looked back through the archives. In the 1920s, much more emphatic and divided times, there was a Q&A section and one such ran something like this:
Q: I am an Anglican and cannot see much difference between our religions. Is there a difference?
A: Yes. As an Anglican you can believe whatever you choose to believe. As a Catholic I believe what the Church believes and teaches.
I chuckled long and hard at that.
As some have done in this thread, the Catholic position can be dismissed as mindlessly believing whatever you are fed. I see it very differently. I don't have to start from scratch and come up with answers. Instead I have to engage with the Faith of the Church, secure in the knowledge that greater minds and holier souls than mine have already wrestled with those questions and come to much more profound conclusions than I ever would. As Pope Benedict has said, truth is not something one constructs, it is something one encounters.
I don't know of any instruction ever that says Catholics should not think or ask questions. What is the case, however, is that Catholics cannot posit their own thoughts as Catholic thought if it veers from the magisterium. I might believe that Jesus was an alien and that would be my business. But as soon as I started telling others that Jesus was an alien that would no longer be just my business as I would be misleading others.
Of course, the Church would want me to correct my error if it came to light that I believed Jesus was an alien. After all, it's the business of the Church to lead people to the Truth, who is Christ, not leave them in ignorance, error and fantasy.
--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Instead I have to engage with the Faith of the Church, secure in the knowledge that greater minds and holier souls than mine have already wrestled with those questions and come to much more profound conclusions than I ever would.
Tut, tut Triple Tiara. Why sell yourself short? Did someone tell you you were a very naughty boy as a child? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
As Pope Benedict has said, truth is not something one constructs, it is something one encounters.
I quite agree.
But there's just no guarantee where and when we might encounter it!
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Of course, the Church would want me to correct my error if it came to light that I believed Jesus was an alien. After all, it's the business of the Church to lead people to the Truth, who is Christ, not leave them in ignorance, error and fantasy.
Cool. I just wish the church would have a bit more humility and openness to the possibility that it too may have errors that need to be corrected. That it too may need to be led back to Christ. That it too may be mired in ignorance, error and fantasy.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
Amen Marvin.
That prayer thread in All Saints must be getting to you.... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
The trouble is, if a bastion of truth starts to admit infallibility, the whole shaboodle may fall apart.
Can't do that.
Having said that, I'm sure there must be a mechanism the Catholic Church uses to monitor itself.
I suspect us Protestants just don't know what it is.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fugue
Shipmate
# 16254
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
As some have done in this thread, the Catholic position can be dismissed as mindlessly believing whatever you are fed. I see it very differently. I don't have to start from scratch and come up with answers. Instead I have to engage with the Faith of the Church, secure in the knowledge that greater minds and holier souls than mine have already wrestled with those questions and come to much more profound conclusions than I ever would. As Pope Benedict has said, truth is not something one constructs, it is something one encounters.
I don't know of any instruction ever that says Catholics should not think or ask questions. What is the case, however, is that Catholics cannot posit their own thoughts as Catholic thought if it veers from the magisterium...
The highlighted sentence to me exemplifies the problem, in that essentially saying it is ok to think for yourself and then you will see the truth of what you've already been told by the magisterium. But if you come to different conclusions to the magisterium, what then? Silence, lest your views mislead the faithful? Just leave and find another more congenial church in which to worship? Whilst this latter solution may make sense to many, it does not fully take into consideration the position of people (like me) who were baptised as infants into the Catholic Church, and who have grown up with it as a central part of their life and cultural identity. For such people, seeking to conform one's mind and heart with the official teaching may have been a sincere struggle over many years, even to the point of insanity.
"Greater minds and holier souls" than mine have indeed drawn more profound conclusions than I suspect I will ever be capable of. I listen to them. But it cuts both ways. Some of those great minds and holy souls have been instrumental in forming magisterial teaching, and many more have found themselves to concur with it. But I would also argue that greater minds and holier souls than mine have differed from magisterial teaching, too, and I don't think their voices should simply be silenced.
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I might believe that Jesus was an alien and that would be my business. But as soon as I started telling others that Jesus was an alien that would no longer be just my business as I would be misleading others.
Let's face it, dissent from doctrinal teaching of the RCC is not usually focussed these days on the provenance of Jesus, but on ethical matters such as contraception, homosexuality, or the ordination of women and married men. You may consider the current magisterial teaching to be the last word on these matters, until the doctrinal position is reformulated in 500 years time (maybe, who knows?).
Meanwhile others perhaps battle on as loyal but despised dissenters on the margins of the fold, or, like me, leave altogether for a less authoritarian place to worship. I'm not sure where my apostasy leaves me in the eyes of the RCC in relation to the question of eternal damnation. IngoB's comment above about Arius and Luther was somewhat ominous, I thought.
But hey, I'd rather take my chances with God and be an honest heretic than an uptight saint.
Posts: 126 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fugue
Shipmate
# 16254
|
Posted
Sorry to double post, but just a clarification about my final remark above: I did not mean to imply that I think people who uphold an orthodox Roman Catholic position are necessarily "uptight", in case anyone might read it that way. That's just how trying to conform my mind to the whole package of RC teaching left me, personally.
I actually have great respect for the RC tradition and its theology, but personally consider something has gone wrong at the highest levels in its exercise of authority and its inability to admit possible error or unknowing. On this I'm in agreement with Marvin's pertinent comment above.
Posts: 126 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fugue:
The highlighted sentence to me exemplifies the problem, in that essentially saying it is ok to think for yourself and then you will see the truth of what you've already been told by the magisterium. But if you come to different conclusions to the magisterium, what then?
I'm interested in getting an answer to this one too - I've been digging around it for years. The assumption in some of the official documents I've read trying to address the issue is that a properly informed conscience cannot disagree with the magisterium, on anything. One should not go against one's conscience BUT if one bothered to inform one's conscience one would never go against the Church either.
The only conclusion I can make from this is that anyone who's made a serious and sincere effort to understand the teaching yet come to a different conclusion, is either too stupid or too spiritually blind to understand (I'm, not condemning this, I usually have to read anything Ingo posts more than once before I grasp what he's getting at so I'm more than willing to put myself in that category, potentially). There is no room for the Church being wrong, on anything. Yet this is at odds with the way the Church limits claims of infallibility and has an apparent hierarchy of authority - which incidentally is not self-referential and therefore not infallible.
If the issue involves mortal sin, does the Church really say, in the words of Obi-Wan, "You must do what you think is right" when the consequences are potentially so severe?
[ 12. May 2011, 11:15: Message edited by: GreyFace ]
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
As Pope Benedict has said, truth is not something one constructs, it is something one encounters.
Yes, I quite agree with Benedict's statement - but as men and women, the RC claims to have constructed it! An accumulation of the encounters of holier and more profound minds constructed over the millenia into doctrine and dogma. Where is the room for you to encounter truth if you are trapped within the constructs of others? It only works if you believe the construct is the truth!
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
As Pope Benedict has said, truth is not something one constructs, it is something one encounters.
This is one of my favorite quotations of Benedict. Another one is from, I think, Archbishop Burke:
"What do you do when you disagree with the Church? You change your mind."
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Interesting reading. But for a long time now I've been at a loss to explain why Christians of various reformed traditions care about what the Roman Catholic Church thinks.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I think this is one of the most important things that has been lost in the Protestant tradition.
And I think that no longer having to believe whatever the church tells you to believe, and instead being free to work out your own faith in fear and trembling throughout your lifetime's walk with God, was one of the greatest steps forward Christianity has ever taken. It may not have been popular with the heirarchy, of course, but then encouraging people to think for themselves has never been popular with heirarchies.
Marvin, I am not leaping to the defence of the me/church/God perspective. Nor am I defending hierarchies or intransigent dogma.
But ............. I am somewhat currently convinced that salvation comes in community. Therefore the coupling of me, my community and our God as a reflection of my story before the throne resonates.
Indeed the more I think on it the more it feels like; us, our community before the communal throne of the Trinity.
Is there as much danger in isolation as there is in blind following of communal rules?
All the best, Pyx_e
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Interesting reading. But for a long time now I've been at a loss to explain why Christians of various reformed traditions care about what the Roman Catholic Church thinks.
Cos they are the biggest kid on the block. If you share a garden with an elephant you have to pay attention to where its going to step next.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
Oh, most certainly. Accountability to others is very important, as is the ability to learn from their insights.
I'm just saying that that applies in all directions. No individual or organisation is unaccountable. No individual or organisation has nothing to learn from the others. No individual or organisation gets to command ultimate agreement in all things simply because of who or what it is.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
