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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: How harmful are personality tests?
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
One of the most popular personality tests used in church life is the MBTI (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), which is based on Jung's theory of types.
I have had some experience of this in a church I used to attend in the past, and I often wondered whether the ministries within the church were organised more on the basis of the results of the personality test than any kind of spiritual calling. For example, there was a continual insinuation (unashamedly promoted by the rector) that 'extrovert' types were more 'spiritual' than 'introverts' and that this supposedly outgoing personality type was more consistent with the charismatic worship model.
I also know of someone (very close to me from the same church) whose personality underwent a very significant change (for the worse) after taking this test - a test which consisted of not just a few questions, but pages of highly intrusive and, of course, personal 'interrogation'. After answering the many questions he was then subjected to the personal assessments of other people in the church - people who hardly knew him. These assessments were given at a point when he was highly vulnerable psychologically as a result of the many (often leading) questions he had had to answer about himself.
I don't want to be completely negative about these tests, as I am sure, in a limited way, they have some value (especially as a way of trying to understand how other people 'tick'). But I just wonder what experiences other people have had of this kind of test - especially within church life.
Could these tests simply drive people into self-obsession and legalistic 'navel gazing'?
[ 05. January 2015, 01:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Like all psychological tests, the Myers-Briggss are as good as you care to make them. As far as I am aware they are designed for personal help, not to be bandied around anybody else, especially those in the same community.
I have done them in a Christian setting, with people I did not know, and found the results immensely helpful. But those results were for me, and me alone. Who I cared to divulge them to was entirely up to me.
If the person you know has been "assessed" by people in his church, and those results then used by others, for whatever purpose, then I suggest he finds another, less abusive, church.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Like all psychological tests, the Myers-Briggss are as good as you care to make them. As far as I am aware they are designed for personal help, not to be bandied around anybody else, especially those in the same community.
Exactly. From what was described in the OP, the tests were used in an incredibly inappropriate way that the test was never designed for, and the interpretations given were not ones the test designers would affirm. Basically it sounds like the leadership team used the test as some thinly veiled pseudo-scientific cover for their own particular biases and/or power trip.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
For example, there was a continual insinuation (unashamedly promoted by the rector) that 'extrovert' types were more 'spiritual' than 'introverts'
![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Apart from the apparent equation of 'spiritual' with 'charismatic', this seems to betray a total misunderstanding of what MBTI is. It's a descriptive, not prescriptive tool. It seems as if this church is taking an approach not unlike the 'gays can be cured' one, suggesting that there is one personality type to which all should conform for their spiritual health. Instead of, as is the case, to their spiritual death.
Angloid (proud to be INFP)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
Sounds more like a highly dysfunctional church and church leader than a failure of the test.
I did an MBTI course in a church hall. An external course leader marked the pre-course questionnaire, you came to your own conclusion at the end. A few group exercises to make it real, but no pressure to reveal your final type then or subsequently, and the clergy weren't there. I found it useful. And I find it useful in certain circumstances to discuss with other people where my relationship is important.
I've also done a Willow Creek style Network Gifts course, which I would also recommend, in a different church. That was used a little bit more by the church leaders to assign volunteers and develop pastoral care, but was advertised as such.
I also like things like Belbin team skills, and others I respect use Honey-Mumford learning skills.
All can be useful, but don't worship them!
And I am a hard-nosed mathematician who doesn't go in for wishy-washy psycho-babble or manipulation.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Benny Diction 2
Shipmate
# 14159
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Posted
Have done Myers Briggs 3 times (twice during pre ordination training and once as part of a counselling course) and each time the result was slightly different and I was a slightly different personality type. Don't know what this syas but I didn't lose any sleep.
At best I found Myers Briggs helpful in making me more self aware of one of two blind spots. But I remember with horror how some fellow students jumped on it. They seemed to love being put in to a box and fell on the result like some long lost relative.
Have also done Eneagram
Thought it was seriously weird. Got nothing from it. (Again as part of pre ordination training.)
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Benny Diction
"The Labour party has never been a socialist party, although there have always been socialists in it - a bit like Christians in the Church of England." Tony Benn
Posts: 859 | From: Home of the magic roundabout | Registered: Oct 2008
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I'm a curate at a charismatic Anglican church.
Both me and my training incumbent are clearly I on Myers-Briggs.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I use MBTI frequently as a spiritual director. It helps people 'forgive' themselves for being different e.g. as an introvert I am not very good at the hand-shaking bit at the back of church when I have finished conducting a service but people know I am a good listener when it comes to serious stuff as opposed to small-talk.
It helps people who work in a team to understand why some colleagues irritate them and how to get the best from everybody.
It helps people who are frustrated with prayer and worship to consider different styles and approaches that will be more helpful.
[ 31. January 2010, 15:02: Message edited by: leo ]
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ElaineC
Shipmate
# 12244
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Posted
As a Reader in Training I spent a study day last Saturday where we looked at out MBTI preferences. We had filled out a questionaire before the day. The leader pointed out that the results were only indicative and the purpose of the day was to have fun. Which we did. For the morning exercises we were divided into our extravert and introvert groups which clearly showed the differences in our approaches to the task.
In the afternoon we looked at prayer in relation to out MBTI groups. We were given a task to do according to our opposite preference. The extraverts had to go and do the task individually and the introverts had to do the task as a group. It wasn't easy!
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Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing. John Erskine
Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2
At best I found Myers Briggs helpful in making me more self aware of one of two blind spots. But I remember with horror how some fellow students jumped on it. They seemed to love being put in to a box and fell on the result like some long lost relative.
One of my concerns about personality tests is that there is a danger of limiting a person's perception of him- or herself - as you say 'being put in to a box'.
I, myself, am quite introverted in certain situations and quite a bit more 'extrovert' in others. It depends on the context. And I certainly believe that God's work in a person's life is not limited to how a certain perceived personality type would act.
The following argument won't mean anything to someone who doesn't believe in the reality of God, but I have been in situations where the presence of God has turned people's perceived personalities on their heads. The 'extroverts' become very quiet and the 'introverts' become far more outgoing and confident. That's not a general rule, of course, but spirituality can sometimes defy the more 'natural' personality profile.
The church I mentioned in the OP seemed to be organised on the basis of personality - like a kind of personality cult, undergirded by the profiling of the personality test, which was a kind of Christianised application of the MBTI. The test (or course) was designed to help people find their 'spiritual gifts' based on their natural personalities and talents. I found this psychological approach to theology quite unhealthy and self-absorbed, especially since my understanding of 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 tells me that the gifts of the Spirit are given by God's grace and are not descriptions of natural talents.
As I say, I am not dismissing these tests, but I just think they need to be handled very carefully and perhaps lightly in church life.
A personality test could also lead to false conclusions and complacency about a person's behaviour. I have a booklet called Personality Indicators and the Spiritual Life by Robert Innes (one of the 'Grove Spirituality Series'), which is generally positive about the Church's use of personality tests. But Innes cautions the reader about false interpretations of behaviour:
A friend of mine turns up half an hour late for a social engagement. What kind of explanation might I give? I could put it down to my friend being a strong Myers-Briggs 'P' type - spontaneous rather than organized. Alternatively, I might put it down to the trait he occasionally shows of being a touch inconsiderate. Then again, I might inquire as to whether he has learnt to be late - he knows I do not get upset if he doesn't keep to appointments. Or, there may be cultural factors involved: he might use his lateness as a social cue to indicate his superiority in status to me. Finally, it might be that there was something in this particular situation which made him late - the baby sitter was delayed. All of these, or none of them, might help me with an explanation. But, by itself, knowing my friend's Myers-Briggs type may be no help at all. It could even be worse than useless if it encourages me to put his behaviour down to his 'type' when there is some other more urgent reason at stake.
Isn't there a danger that a personality profile can provide an excuse for bad behaviour - like the person I knew at work who once justified missing a deadline, by saying to the person chasing the work: "The reason you're upset is because you are 'left brain' and I am 'right brain'. So you should just accept me for what I am."
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
As others have said, they can be useful, but they need to be properly used, and ideally done by/with people who know what they're talking about. You can also get the results you want if you've done them often enough ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
One thing that almost always crops up is the introvert/extrovert thing: Joe Average tends to take it to mean "shy" and "exhibitionist" rather than the slightly more subtle "inwardly reflective" and "outwardly expressive" tone that is often mean (IME) in psychological wossnames these days. I'm very introvert in terms of self-analysis, brooding on stuff, being self-aware etc. but am equally happy in a social situation doing the old handshake and flim-flam thing, despite never coming out as "extrovert" in psychological terms. When dealing with these kind of things, it can be very important to have people on hand to actually explain the words in the results so people realise it's just one set of tags, not a value judgement ...
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Many MB experiences fail to explore the Jungian concept of 'the shadow'. I am quite an E, but my MBTI days never really got into why I need so much 'I' time.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
$100 says INFP / INTP are the most common MB types on the ship. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
And yes although they can be a tiny bit useful sometimes by and large personality tests are reductionistic attempts to pigeon-hole human personality which is extremely complex. Put people in boxes and then we feel we have some control over life.
Just give up. God has made people so amazing and wonderfully different that we will never fully understand each other!
[ 31. January 2010, 22:43: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Putting people in a box is the exact opposite of what MBTI and the Enneagram are for. First, as Nicodemia first pointed out, my type is my information, not anybody else's. Secondly, it's not meant to stick a label on me, but rather to give me some helpful pointers for growth.
It's a pity so many people do the MBTI and leave it at that. What I found more useful was studying the "Shadow" (the opposite of your type) which I found helps me deal with things when my "natural" personality type can't.
I think the motif of change is more explicit in the Enneagram, but I've never had my Enneagram type investigated thoroughly enough to really benefit from it.
Adeodatus. INTP ... oh look, something shiny ...
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Putting people in a box is the exact opposite of what MBTI and the Enneagram are for. First, as Nicodemia first pointed out, my type is my information, not anybody else's. Secondly, it's not meant to stick a label on me, but rather to give me some helpful pointers for growth.
And I doubt that the internet was designed with the Ship in mind, but here we both are.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
At least one MBPI test I've seen focuses less on "This is how you always act, Mr. INFP/INTJ (I've been both . . . at the same time . . .)" than "Okay, you're INFP here, but, in these situations, your Inner ESTJ comes out to play. He's weird. You should get to know him, because he does things you don't expect yourself to do." Thus, it tried to show that, yes indeed, you do have other parts of your personality which help you to Do the Things That Need To Be Done®.
Thus, it can be helpful, if done correctly, to let you know that you'll probably act a certain way for a certain reason (and that other people might find this strange), but that there are other parts of you that do odd, surprising and interesting things. Which I kinda like.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I took myers-briggs, had to decide whether to answer for how I am on the job or off the job, they are somewhat different.
Now that I'm unemployed, certain characteristics are developing in ways they couldn't while I was on the job.
I suspect the tests are not fundamentally who you are, but how you are responding these days to what's going on in your life right now.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I also know of someone (very close to me from the same church) whose personality underwent a very significant change (for the worse) after taking this test - a test which consisted of not just a few questions, but pages of highly intrusive and, of course, personal 'interrogation'. After answering the many questions he was then subjected to the personal assessments of other people in the church - people who hardly knew him. These assessments were given at a point when he was highly vulnerable psychologically as a result of the many (often leading) questions he had had to answer about himself.
I've had a similar thing happen to me - not in a church context - using different psychological "tools". Fortunately, I had the good sense, even at the age of 19, to run far, far away and never look back.
IMO, the problem here - as well as in the "extroverts are more spiritual than introverts situation" - appears to be the attempt to either control others or grasp at a sense of healthy self-hood that one does not in fact possess. Such games can be played with many tools and concepts including Spiritual ones. How about "Those who meditate are more spiritual than those who don't"? Or "Those who have attended our Renewal retreat are the only ones in our church who are genuinely baptized in the Spirit"?
I've personally found MBTI mildly helpful but, like all tools, it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Let's not say that steak knives should be banned because they can be used to kill people. And let's not say that it's only those who own a steak knife who are truly prepared for life.
The Triune God is at the centre of our faith, not personality type or worship style or any other idols we care to fashion for ourselves.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think many individuals and organizations are concerned to find out 'What type of person am I/is X?', sometimes for perfectly legitimate reasons, sometimes for reasons which may be questionable.
The theories about personality vary considerably between psychologists and no one theory is necessarily infallible.
Having worked with a number of psychologists in my career I can assure you that quality in the profession varies considerably.
It is not the profession a person follows but their essential sanity, normalcy and inherent decency which counts.
Jung's theories of personality are quite complex. I've always found the division of people into 'introverts' and 'extroverts' useful. Other parts of his psychology I'm not so sure about.
Whether Jung would recognize the MBTI as being a legitimate development of his theories is a moot point.
It is also interesting that, if the Wikipedia article is correct, neither of the originators of the MBTI was qualified in the field of psychology. It appears that Isobel Myers Briggs developed her methodology working in the personnel field.
I was once subjected to the MBTI test as part of a training day organized by my workplace, an office of a nondenominational Christian charity working with unemployed people.
The lady running the training may have been qualified as a MBTI operative but I am unsure. She was one of these 'take command' people with a history of management and as a trainer in the public service. She had, as far as I am aware, no psychological qualifications.
We did the test and then discussed amongst ourselves our personality types whilst the trainer pontificated about how best to work together.
Simplistic? Definitely. Dangerous? Probably not but definitely intrusive and facile in the extreme.
As far as I am aware the trainer had no affiliation with Christianity.
I suspect many associated with the Church have had the same experience. Not good and not recommended.
The people I was working with were perfectly ethical but I can see, in the wrong hands, the supposed 'sharing' of this information in a group situation, particularly if the records were passed on to management, open to misuse.
There is quite a well developed Christian theory of personality developed by the Church Fathers and Mothers going back to the Early Church and well based in both the Bible and Church Tradition. I wish the Anglican Church, to which I belong, gave a little more credence to this sort of Christian personality analysis, which is not simplistic nor simplistically applicable.
Fads come and go. MBTI is one of these. Like the Eneagram. Hopefully they and their kin will soon be discarded in the dustbin where all dubious theories go.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
There is quite a well developed Christian theory of personality developed by the Church Fathers and Mothers going back to the Early Church and well based in both the Bible and Church Tradition. I wish the Anglican Church, to which I belong, gave a little more credence to this sort of Christian personality analysis, which is not simplistic nor simplistically applicable.
News to me - tell us more!
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
The Meyers-Briggs always seemed pretty harmless to me, if by harmless I mean mostly useless.
Anything can get dangerous if you take it more seriously than it ought to be taken.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Etymological Evangelical wrote quote:
'introverts' become far more outgoing and confident
I believe this is a misunderstanding of the word Introvert at least from the Myers Briggs understanding. Introverts and not those who are unconfident, rather they are people who have a strong inner life , they listen well, and find their renewal energy comes from being alone. In other words my friend who is an extravert when tired wants to relax by going to a party, while I an introvert want to spend the evening alone with a good book.
I have used the tool both before and after ordination and in groups. I found it helpful in group settings to help people decide what skills they have to offer the group process.
I think it helps to see it as only one of many tools and never to be used by anyone but the individual.
And yes I believe that God often uses our non dominate personality to speak to us. That is because we are most often open to hear God there because we are more open to listening.
INFJ and yet always changing. I like to call it growth. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
In MB terms (yes, like many shippies) I am an off the scale I (off the scale N and P, too, cuspish n the T/F). This I-aspect is not I suspect what a casual observer would think when they see me in full flight on a Sunday, preaching, presiding, mixing with the people.
What they don't see is my emotional exhaustion after the event. Usually it takes me an hour and a half to two hours to recover even to the point where I can chill out with my own family. In that time I withdraw from everyone, reaching deep into my aloneness to find my "is-ness" again. For it is in the "I-state" that an Introvert finds renewal. That does not mean they have to function there at all times, and clearly I don't. It means I have to go there ... or die.
It's a tool. It helps me understand me. It may - may - help me understand others enmeshed in the rich fabric of being human. But it is never a basis on which to judge or pigeon hole. We are, as my mate Paul said, all members of the one body.
[ 01. February 2010, 03:40: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
In that time I withdraw from everyone, reaching deep into my aloneness to find my "is-ness" again.
Out of interest, do you withdraw to find your "p-ness" after church on Sunday too?
Just asking.
(It's fantastic being 13 again.)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Myers-Briggs was one of the types of psychology I studied when doing post-grad teacher training in St Andrews/Dundee uni; we all had to do the test as well as learn about it and the way different people acted and felt etc. It had developed over years and is now still the same system of testing.
Years later, we did it for a w/e at our church and the man who led it explained and encouraged us about the positive personalities we all had. He also explained that the way of development is to gradually shift from extreme levels of the four types we have to get into the centre, the balance, of the way we are - but also he explained how at work it was better not all of us to be all the same, as all jobs needed people who cold act, think, show their opinions in varying ways.
I'm INTJ but over the years I'm much more balanced with all four.
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
There is quite a well developed Christian theory of personality developed by the Church Fathers and Mothers going back to the Early Church and well based in both the Bible and Church Tradition. I wish the Anglican Church, to which I belong, gave a little more credence to this sort of Christian personality analysis, which is not simplistic nor simplistically applicable.
News to me - tell us more!
Ever read 'The Adam Complex' by Dee Margaret Pennock? I suggest it for a start.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Benny Diction 2
Shipmate
# 14159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
$100 says INFP / INTP are the most common MB types on the ship.
And yes although they can be a tiny bit useful sometimes by and large personality tests are reductionistic attempts to pigeon-hole human personality which is extremely complex. Put people in boxes and then we feel we have some control over life.
Just give up. God has made people so amazing and wonderfully different that we will never fully understand each other!
Well said.
ENFP by the way!
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Benny Diction
"The Labour party has never been a socialist party, although there have always been socialists in it - a bit like Christians in the Church of England." Tony Benn
Posts: 859 | From: Home of the magic roundabout | Registered: Oct 2008
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
MBTI doesn't work for me. Many of the questions are ones that can't be answered in any useful way by me as someone on the autism spectrum, because there's a conflict between "would love to whirl around at social things being very extrovert and silly" and "can't whirl around at social things because I end up exhausted beyond measure within a few minutes unless I can manage it a certain way, so I end up having to prefer to sit quietly".
If I answer literally, according to what I can normally manage, I come out as ISTJ, but if I answer for what I'd love to be able to do (and can sometimes do if people are kind enough to allow me to do it 'my way'), it comes out as almost the opposite!
I don't see such tests as harmful unless misused for nasty purposes, though. I think they can be invaluable for helping people understand themselves more?
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
They can be harmful, very... 'free personality tests' are how Scientology branches canvas for malleable, slightly depressed types with low assertiveness and self-esteem in order to sell to them.
'Can I just check if you are likely to be a suitable subject for pyramid-selling and will be so submissive to peer-pressure that a sci-fi writer could gradually convince you that you were an oyster, whilst persuading you that the most evil thing in the world is professional psychological help? Excellent.'
On a more general note,
I know some people find these tests very helpful, but I also think that people could come out as 2 different types on two different occasions, and it doesn't do to assume that personality is somehow set in stone, coz it ain't... we develop and change over time
[ 01. February 2010, 07:36: Message edited by: Birdseye ]
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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view
Posts: 1615 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: Dec 2003
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
ENFP by the way!
All the best people are!
Ultimately MBTI is a parlour trick. Ask people 'What are you like?', and then tell them 'This is what you are like!'. Everyone says 'Wow that is what I am like!'.
In asking you the same question in different ways however it can actually accentuate a minor tendency, or prey on what we would want to be seen as. It can actually be used as a tool to control people, or as an excuse to not engage with people who are different. The former is treading into the ground of what Scripture calls 'Witchcraft' (having nothing to do with skyclad moonlit dancing).
It fails to engage with how we behave in different situations or contexts either.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Putting people in a box is the exact opposite of what MBTI and the Enneagram are for. First, as Nicodemia first pointed out, my type is my information, not anybody else's. Secondly, it's not meant to stick a label on me, but rather to give me some helpful pointers for growth.
It's a pity so many people do the MBTI and leave it at that. What I found more useful was studying the "Shadow" (the opposite of your type) which I found helps me deal with things when my "natural" personality type can't.
I think the motif of change is more explicit in the Enneagram, but I've never had my Enneagram type investigated thoroughly enough to really benefit from it.
Adeodatus. INTP ... oh look, something shiny ...
With you all the way there, Adeodatus. It's been said of the Enneagram that it doesn't so much put you in a box, as enable you to begin to climb out of the box that you're in. IME, used wisely, and as one tool amongst many, it's helping me build on what I've learned from the MBTI; especially in engaging with the shadow side of my personality.
But and this is a big 'but,'(stop sniggering, Mr M) I'd always emphasise the 'one tool amongst many.'Goodness knows, there's enough pop psychology and quick fixes floating around, especially on the internet. I'd hazard a guess that time, slow, organic growth and not-so-simple maturity play a major part in any inner work, whether in a Christian context or otherwise. Marinading, not microwaving.
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
You find there are three different types of views re MBTI
1. A good way of understanding human diversity
2. Useful in the right hands, dangerous in the wrong hands.
3. About as useful as astrology as a guide to human personality.
I'm in category 2. So is the Myers and Briggs Foundation. Here is a statement on ethical guidelines for its use. I suggest that EtymologicalEvangelical refers his/her vicar to these guidelines and the other guidelines on use of the model. He has clearly crossed them, which suggests either that he does not know what he is talking about (a charitable view) or he is using the MBTI for purposes of his own.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
You find there are three different types of views re MBTI
1. A good way of understanding human diversity
2. Useful in the right hands, dangerous in the wrong hands.
3. About as useful as astrology as a guide to human personality.
Don't you think it is more of a spectrum between 1 and 3?
If you come out exactly as '2' then you are supposed to fall down towards 1.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Sure, its a spectrum between uncritical approval and downright dismissal.
An old friend of ours works as a business trainer (20 years experience), specialising in human resource matters. She's been through the Myers and Briggs Foundation training programme for professional reasons and has also been subject to some pseudo-MBTI stuff in her local church. Her settled view is that there is a lot of misuse of MBTI in church settings - but in her view this is just another illustration of the old truth that a little learning is a dangerous thing.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
Myers-Briggs was just about the first thing we did at theological college. While we were told there is no 'right' result the way my course was run and how the group functioned strongly favoured people who worked out of an extrovert base. Sometimes I was given the impression that introversion is a handicap to be overcome.
I suspect part of this was about the college trying to create a learning environment for a group that was mostly from the Pacific Islands, who mostly scored as strong e's and who functioned together in an almost communitarian way.
I am an INFJ by the way, INFJ's make up a very small percentge of the population but I understand are disproportionately represented amongst the clergy.
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Her settled view is that there is a lot of misuse of MBTI in church settings
I have seen some of these supposed "who are you" tests used in church in ways that seem to me the goal is quick easy answers and quick labeling people with fixed labels. And then that static labeling is called "Christianity." "Now you know who you are in God's view."
I see that approach as unhealthy and the opposite of what church is about.
Seems to me God often wants to use people in ways that we think inconsistent with their strengths - Moses the stutterer as God's mouthpiece. When we let God use us in ways beyond our natural abilities or styles, we see that it is God working and admire God more, become more God-aware.
Seems to me seeking more of God is about growth, not assuming one stays in a cozy box that some "authority" put a label on for you. The things we can do, the ways we can do them, the effects we can have on other people, can be outside that box if we let God grow us in directions God chooses.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
MBTI doesn't work for me. Many of the questions are ones that can't be answered in any useful way by me as someone on the autism spectrum, because there's a conflict between "would love to whirl around at social things being very extrovert and silly" and "can't whirl around at social things because I end up exhausted beyond measure within a few minutes unless I can manage it a certain way, so I end up having to prefer to sit quietly".
If I answer literally, according to what I can normally manage, I come out as ISTJ, but if I answer for what I'd love to be able to do (and can sometimes do if people are kind enough to allow me to do it 'my way'), it comes out as almost the opposite!
I don't see such tests as harmful unless misused for nasty purposes, though. I think they can be invaluable for helping people understand themselves more?
Maybe you can come out as the opposite because, in my notes: It is possible for ISTJs to acquire the social graces, ease with words and the necessary interpersonal skills to be so thoroughly outgoing that they are mistaken as Extraverts. All this will be in order to fulfil their sense of responsibility and duty. They can put on Extraverted clothing when the occasion demands without changing their essentially Introverted inner nature.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Hmm, contemplating the mad things I've got up to over the years, my tendency never to shut up even when it might be a Jolly Good Idea, and my yearning to tell everyone within hearing distance huge amounts about me and sort out all my problems by talking/actioning them, I'd say that 'introvert' isn't the real me, and it's not got a lot to do with duty and responsibility.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Many MB experiences fail to explore the Jungian concept of 'the shadow'. I am quite an E, but my MBTI days never really got into why I need so much 'I' time.
The shadow is extremely important in MBTI for those who are trained practitioners. It is especially important in spiritual direction.
If you have encountered MBTI use which doesn't involve the shadow, then whoever was using it wasn't doing it right. That might be understandable because it is the hardest part to learn - I have to use a crib sheet despite spending two days being trained solely in the shadow side.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Putting people in a box is the exact opposite of what MBTI and the Enneagram are for. First, as Nicodemia first pointed out, my type is my information, not anybody else's. Secondly, it's not meant to stick a label on me, but rather to give me some helpful pointers for growth.
It's a pity so many people do the MBTI and leave it at that. What I found more useful was studying the "Shadow" (the opposite of your type) which I found helps me deal with things when my "natural" personality type can't.
I think the motif of change is more explicit in the Enneagram, but I've never had my Enneagram type investigated thoroughly enough to really benefit from it.
Adeodatus. INTP ... oh look, something shiny ...
Many in the spiritual direction world prefer to use the Enneagram because it developed in a religious/mysticism context whereas MBTI was primarily an educational tool.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
[QUOTE]
Seems to me God often wants to use people in ways that we think inconsistent with their strengths - Moses the stutterer as God's mouthpiece. When we let God use us in ways beyond our natural abilities or styles, we see that it is God working and admire God more, become more God-aware.
Seems to me seeking more of God is about growth, not assuming one stays in a cozy box that some "authority" put a label on for you. The things we can do, the ways we can do them, the effects we can have on other people, can be outside that box if we let God grow us in directions God chooses.
This is such an important point, one that is often missed not only in the Myers-Briggs/personality test venue, but also in the spiritual gifts/ Willow Creek network/ Saddleback SHAPE dynamic as well.
A similar aspect you find emphasized in Scripture is the willingness to serve, to just "do what needs to be done", not what I'm good at, not what I'm gifted at, not what brings me self-fulfillment or gets me lots of praise and affirmation-- but simply doing the thing that is needed at the time it is needed.
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Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
... this seems to betray a total misunderstanding of what MBTI is. It's a descriptive, not prescriptive tool.
Thats what people who use it always say, but in practice its not what they do.
MBTI is a really useful way for getting middle-aged middle-class white American Episcopalian women who are socially conservative but both politically and theologically liberal to talk about themselves and their problems for six or eight hours. It also works quite well for others who are from similar backgrounds or can suspend their disbelief for long enough to act such a role for the duration. But its not really a serious bit of psychological testing.
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green: quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
ENFP by the way!
All the best people are!
Too right we are! I consistently come out like than and have for over 20 years. Usually extreme E and N and P but only just F.
quote:
Ultimately MBTI is a parlour trick. Ask people 'What are you like?', and then tell them 'This is what you are like!'. Everyone says 'Wow that is what I am like!'.
Yep. Which is why its great fun to do but not I think very enlightening. Its main use is a way of breaking the ice socially. Getting people to talk to each other and about each other. There are probably more scientifically rigorous ways to do that, many involving large quantities of alcohol.
quote:
It can actually be used as a tool to control people, or as an excuse to not engage with people who are different.
Yes.
And it also encourages naive essentialist or deterministic thinking about personality.
People who do the test sometimes say "I behave like this because I am an ENFP" or whatever, which is of course bollocks. The behaviour is the real thing, the labels merely labels.
Also the theory is sadly disconnected from the way its used in practice. Their sub-Jungian ideas looked on the "types" as distinct from each other (which is almost certainly nonsense) but people who do the test end up thinking about them as grading into each other - which is likekly more realistic but completly contradicts the theory that is supposedly behind the test.
quote:
It fails to engage with how we behave in different situations or contexts either.
To be fair it didn't when they made me do it. They had this theory of having a prefered style of behaviour
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I think the motif of change is more explicit in the Enneagram, but I've never had my Enneagram type investigated thoroughly enough to really benefit from it.
The trouble is that while Myers-Briggs is at least based on a once-respectable theory of personality development (though I wonder how many people seriously belive it any more), and it does have some relationship with observable personality traits, Enneagram is complete flim-flam. Its from the same stable as Scientology and homeopathic dilution the anti-vaccination propagandists, down there with young-earth creationism and the climate-chage deniers. It's bollocks. Bears no relationship to reality at all, comes out of some opium-crazed 19th-century neo-pagan loony's arse.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
cliffdweller
I think there may be a misunderstanding in there. MBTI is about preferences, not abilities. There is no suggestion that any of the types is more able than any other. So of course it is silent about gifts, talents and their development.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you have encountered MBTI use which doesn't involve the shadow, then whoever was using it wasn't doing it right. That might be understandable because it is the hardest part to learn - I have to use a crib sheet despite spending two days being trained solely in the shadow side.
Which I find strange because 'the shadow' is the aspect of Jungian thought I find most helpful.
My experience of serious Jungians is that they are less than glowing about MBTI.
Now where is that cathedral?
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sure, its a spectrum between uncritical approval and downright dismissal.
Really sorry B62 - I was just teasing - I meant that your reply looked liked another MB test!
Apologies that you took my comment as serious engagement. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Po
Shipmate
# 2456
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Posted
I always come out as a serial killer.
That’s because I write across the paper, “Oh, Officer Starling... do you think you can dissect me with this blunt little tool?”
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The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness.
Posts: 797 | From: LA (Little'ampton) | Registered: Mar 2002
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jrrt01
Shipmate
# 11264
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Posted
I always thought one of the benefits of MBTI was that, instead of putting people into one box (everyone should be like me) or two boxes (everyone who is like me, and everyone who's weird and wrong), it says that there're a whole load of different boxes (well, 16 anyway). Given few of us can remember all the permutations without writing them down, in practice it suggests people can be different in many different ways. And that's not necessarily bad.
We did it in theological college. There was an even spread across all 16 types.
I found it vaguely useful in ministry. It reminded me that some people need to go away and think about things carefully by themselves rather than just talking and deciding there and then. So any important decisions got made over two PCCs rather than at one.
Ultimately all it's saying is that people are different. Here are four particular ways (though not the only ways) in which they might be different to a greater or less extent.
As for the horrible misuse recounted in the OP, you have my complete sympathies.
ENTP
Posts: 62 | From: Manchester | Registered: Apr 2006
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WellYesAndNo
Shipmate
# 14780
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Posted
quote:
Ultimately all it's saying is that people are different. Here are four particular ways (though not the only ways) in which they might be different to a greater or less extent.
Very much agree with this.
It's helped me recently to understand a bit of I behaviour I was finding, from my E perspective, really rather hurtful, but which certainly did not have that intention. I expect I would have come to the conclusions I eventually did if I hadn't known about it, but it was a little push towards understanding for me.
(ENFJ, or ENFP. Have come out as both)
Posts: 51 | Registered: May 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
cliffdweller
I think there may be a misunderstanding in there. MBTI is about preferences, not abilities. There is no suggestion that any of the types is more able than any other. So of course it is silent about gifts, talents and their development.
I understand that. In my prior post I referenced Willow Creek's Network program and Saddleback's SHAPE program-- both of which ARE about gifts and abilities. My point was that in all these things (personality, gifts, and abilities) God sometimes calls us to work outside our comfort zone.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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