|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Trouble at Cwmbran / Richard Taylor
|
sidefall
Apprentice
# 16394
|
Posted
Morning shipmates,
There is a report that Richard Taylor, the pastor behind last year's supposed revival at Victory Church, Cwmbran, has been forced to step down because of a "serious moral failure".
http://ziontalywain.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/breaking-newsrichard-taylor-forced-to.html
(Full disclosure - the above blogger has been consistently critical of Taylor and the events at Victory Church. I am in general agreement with him. I can't find anything else on the net to confirm his report but have no reason to doubt it. I have no personal connections to any of them or Victory Church).
[edited pursuant to Commandment 7]
[ 08. January 2015, 14:31: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
|
Posted
Whatever else can be said the tone of the blog and the comments underneath represent serious moral failure.
If you hope and rejoice that your enemies are as bad as you though or are disappointed if they turn out to be better than you thought then that's a pretty bad place to be as a follower of Christ.
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
sidefall
Apprentice
# 16394
|
Posted
Green Mario,
I also have concerns about the tone of that blog.
However, the blogger (Neville Stephens - I don't know him) works in Cwmbran and has been following the events at Victory Church closely. He's become aware of a lot of serious issues, including claims that residents at their associated drug rehabilitation homes have been mistreated. That's on top of the problems associated with the revival, which seems to have began with a false claim that someone was healed from being in a wheelchair.
Given what he knows, is it any surprise that he's pleased that Richard Taylor has now been discredited and given the boot?
By way of comparison, some years ago there was a pastor called Michael Reid in Brentwood, Essex, who was also doing a lot of harm. Many Christians in that town were very happy when Reid was eventually removed from his position.
Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
Why does this seem to happen so often?! Some major move of God seems to happen, with reports of many people coming to faith, folks with issues like alcohol and drug addictions turning their lives around, remarkable healings; and then many times it ends up with the person at the head of it having to step down from their position because of some major indiscretion.
Does God just not really work in this way? Is the pressure of being the front-person like this simply too much for anyone to bear? Maybe the godly way of revival / reinvigoration is a much lower key, grassroots approach where there isn't such a focus on one person who leads almost daily revival meetings and suchlike (as happened at Cwmbran for some time, and at Lakeland, Florida with Todd Bentley...).
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
First off, in a semi-official hostly capacity, can I remind everyone of Commandment 7 and particularly its injunction not to post anything potenitally libellous? Thank you.
Secondly, for reference purposes, our previous threads on Cwmbran are here and before that, here.
Thirdly, at the risk of saying "I told you so", here were my first impressions back then. If confirmed, this is sad news and (from the Mars Hill thread, I can hear Byron agreeing) also an indictment of the immediate leaders who apparently failed to take appropriate action at an earlier stage despite the warning signs.
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Why does this seem to happen so often?! Some major move of God seems to happen, with reports of many people coming to faith, folks with issues like alcohol and drug addictions turning their lives around, remarkable healings; and then many times it ends up with the person at the head of it having to step down from their position because of some major indiscretion.
I think the key word here is "seem". I don't think there is much objective evidence for a "major move of God" here, just a lot of UK charismatic hype. There is no independent testimony of healing from Cwmbran that I'm aware of.
(That said, it seems clear it had a well-established and well-reputed drug rehab centre, well before Richard Taylor came into leadership. He had himself gone through that centre and I think his return to chair it was already a major mistake)
As I have said frequently and at great length, fortunately God is big enough that he can dish out some "collateral blessing" amidst this kind of mess, but this sadly shows once again the utter failure of this model of "revival" in the long term and the extent to which the promises it holds out are delusional.
quote:
Maybe the godly way (...) is a much lower key, grassroots approach
I have snipped the words "revival" and "reinvigoration" to leave the part I wholeheartedly agree with and am pursuing at a personal level as best I can.
[ 13. August 2014, 08:18: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sidefall
Apprentice
# 16394
|
Posted
Kevin, my view is that these revivals are categorically not "works of God". They are man-made, cooked up by the leaders for their own ends. The people who attend are not unbelievers, but pentecostals and charismatics who travel miles to get their next spiritual high. The reports of conversions, healings, and changed lives are hugely exaggerated and there is rarely any substance to them.
To create or sustain such a false revival requires a lot of deception and manipulation. Someone who is willing to do this is typically corrupt to start with and it's no suprise that they often fall from grace in a spectacular fashion.
One of the big problems is that revivals get so hyped-up that it's easy for people to believe the lies, especially if they are from pentecostal or charismatic backgrounds and need such events to validate their theology. I think revivalist christianity is totally discredited. I would just ignore it and focus, as you say, on the day-to-day business of faith.
Sorry if I'm a bit jaded but I've been round the block a few times.
EDIT: Just to add that I hadn't seen the above comment from Eutychus when I wrote this.
[ 13. August 2014, 08:36: Message edited by: sidefall ]
Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
FWIW, the problem is nearly always associated with accountability. Power corrupts, turning previously good people into bad people.
Good tests are to look at both formal accountabilities (as laid down in constitutions) and check how harmonious the links are with other local churches of different denominations. Churches which are constitutionally weak and ecumenically isolated are open to "hostile" takeovers by dominant leaders and cabals.
It isn't rocket science, any of this. A good friend describes verification of local churches as a matter of sanctified common sense. The paradox seems to be that, in an increasingly iconoclastic world, people are very suspicious of long term establishments; less so of novel, interesting-looking and glittery alternatives. You can get your fingers and your mind badly burned that way.
[ 13. August 2014, 08:48: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Churches which are constitutionally weak and ecumenically isolated are open to "hostile" takeovers by dominant leaders and cabals.
Well, I can say from bitter experience that belonging to an established denomination and what I thought was a strong constitution proved to be no obstacle to a hostile takeover ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The "Victory" group of churches are associate members of the Elim denomination. It will be interesting to see whether Elim feels responsible enough for them to make a clear statement.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Why does this seem to happen so often?!
If you look at most of Jesus' minister and many statements throughout the New Testament, false teachings and false prophets have been a major concern since the start of the church. I can only assume this is because it is very common and very spiritually damaging.
It is worth noting of course that it's a huge problem in the church in general, not just the charismatic segment of it. We can all think of major churches and denominations in which high-ranking leaders have been revealed to have been involved in heinous and unrepentant sin in recent years.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
sidefall
Apprentice
# 16394
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The "Victory" group of churches are associate members of the Elim denomination. It will be interesting to see whether Elim feels responsible enough for them to make a clear statement.
I don't know if they'll make a public statement, but I note that Richard Taylor spoke at the Elim Bible Week in April. His talk is currently available for purchase on the Elim web site - it will be interesting to see if it disappears.
I think there are two issues relating to Cwmbran:
Firstly, whatever Taylor has done to bring about his removal. This I'm sure will be addressed somehow.
Secondly, the wider problems associated with revivalism. I don't expect any changes here - it has been part of pentecostalism since the beginning at Azusa Street, and I can't see it going away.
Edited to remove commandment 7 material again. -Gwai
[ 13. August 2014, 13:31: Message edited by: Gwai ]
Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
sidefall
Apprentice
# 16394
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It is worth noting of course that it's a huge problem in the church in general, not just the charismatic segment of it. We can all think of major churches and denominations in which high-ranking leaders have been revealed to have been involved in heinous and unrepentant sin in recent years.
Possibly, but I'm having trouble thinking of any other bits of the church that attract scandal in the same way as the charismatics. There's been catholic child abuse, but that's about it. Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, what have been the big problems for these denominations?
Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
sidefall
Apprentice
# 16394
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
As Eutychus just said a few posts above, please do not post potentially libellous material. And I would have thought it obvious except apparently it still needs to be said: If a host deletes material from your post as potentially libellous, don't put it into another post!
Gwai,
Purgatory Host
My apologies, I didn't notice that Eutychus had edited my original post.
Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
Possibly, but I'm having trouble thinking of any other bits of the church that attract scandal in the same way as the charismatics. There's been catholic child abuse, but that's about it. Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, what have been the big problems for these denominations?
Rev. Paul Flowers, the Methodist pastor involved with drugs and financial malfeasance, is a recent example.
The Guardian
There was recently a story of a Catholic priest in Atlanta who used church funds to buy a mansion.
Huffington Post
Assuming that we exclude Westboro Baptist Church, you only have to Google "Baptist scandal" and you'll have plenty of reading to do.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It is worth noting of course that it's a huge problem in the church in general, not just the charismatic segment of it. We can all think of major churches and denominations in which high-ranking leaders have been revealed to have been involved in heinous and unrepentant sin in recent years.
Possibly, but I'm having trouble thinking of any other bits of the church that attract scandal in the same way as the charismatics. There's been catholic child abuse, but that's about it. Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, what have been the big problems for these denominations?
These denominations exercise a strong degree of central control. Candidates for the ministry are chosen, trained and placed precisely so as to avoid highly individualistic outcomes. It could be said that the general aim is to avoid charismatic personalities. The Methodists actually said they never wanted anyone to gain the same degree of influence over the church as John Wesley had, and structured the denomination to that effect. And I've heard it said that Catholic priests are supposed to be interchangeable....
The problem is that by discouraging strong, charismatic personalities you tend not to get the dynamic risk takers, the church planters, the people who get results by doing things 'outside the box'. You mostly get the people who are happy to maintain things as they are. This is necessary, to an extent, but the Church suffers if almost all of its leaders are of this type, just as it does in the opposite situation.
Of course, a Methodist minister got into big trouble a few months ago for 'moral failings', and every now and again we hear of some naughty thing that a CofE vicar has done. But the media is more interested in these events than ordinary churchgoers are. IME, Methodists don't seem very interested in clergy adultery or the public denial of the Virgin Birth, etc., unless they actually know the ministers involved. The opposite seems to be the case when it comes to evangelical shenanigans - every other evangelical has an opinion, even if the people concerned are in another denomination. Coming from a Methodist background, I find that rather curious.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It is worth noting of course that it's a huge problem in the church in general, not just the charismatic segment of it. We can all think of major churches and denominations in which high-ranking leaders have been revealed to have been involved in heinous and unrepentant sin in recent years.
Possibly, but I'm having trouble thinking of any other bits of the church that attract scandal in the same way as the charismatics. There's been catholic child abuse, but that's about it. Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, what have been the big problems for these denominations?
The Anglican diocese of Chichester (UK) has had serious child protection failures, including child abuse, and a pupil at a church school running off with a teacher.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Well, yes, although I imagine that pupil and teacher thing might quite easily have happened at a County school.
[ 13. August 2014, 14:47: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
|
Posted
I think the problem isn't so much about revival mentality, but about any culture where leaders either get put on a pedestal, or totally vilified (with no space for the reality in-between).
I met Richard a good number of years ago (when he was still in Solihull). He struck me as a genuine, passionate guy. He'd had a difficult past and seemed to have come a long way from it.
But in any system where a leader (church or whatever) is given too much power, and everyone is trying to please and impress them, unless that person is a saint, they're probably going to get corrupted and head for a fall.
And when they fall, they're immediately a false prophet, a horrendously vile person, not someone like us who has screwed up.
ISTM a reflection of our celebrity culture. We build them up to knock 'em down. If only we treated each other as normal people (when we're at the top, and when we're at the bottom), perhaps there would be fewer leaders with delusions of grandeur, and fewer scandals like this one.
--------------------
"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
These denominations exercise a strong degree of central control. Candidates for the ministry are chosen, trained and placed precisely so as to avoid highly individualistic outcomes.
This is not universally true - it is equally true that overly charismatic types rarely happy at all in an environment where they might have to persuade other people of the rightness of their views and actually be accountable to someone else.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Churches which are constitutionally weak and ecumenically isolated are open to "hostile" takeovers by dominant leaders and cabals.
Well, I can say from bitter experience that belonging to an established denomination and what I thought was a strong constitution proved to be no obstacle to a hostile takeover
Very true. "Top down" rather than "consultative" ethos should have been in my earlier post. Hard to test for if you're considering joining anywhere.
The Who had it pretty much right. Once you suffer this way, it's also important to get on our knees and pray we won't get fooled again.
[ 13. August 2014, 16:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The Who had it pretty much right. Once you suffer this way, it's also important to get on our knees and pray we won't get fooled again.
Indeed, and something I let rip with on my guitar when in the mood (although that legendary yell is a bit high for me these days...)
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
These denominations exercise a strong degree of central control. Candidates for the ministry are chosen, trained and placed precisely so as to avoid highly individualistic outcomes.
This is not universally true - it is equally true that overly charismatic types rarely happy at all in an environment where they might have to persuade other people of the rightness of their views and actually be accountable to someone else.
Well, yes, dynamic individualists sometimes squeeze through, despite the best attempts to keep them at bay!
As for tolerant charismatic types in highly de-centralised and individualistic churches, they'd probably do better to move to a non-evangelical environment. This would be a good outcome for the historical, more tightly-structured denominations, which would benefit from the arrival of these slightly older, more spiritually mature and self-aware Christians, and good for those individuals who want to be in a more tolerant, pluralistic Christian setting than the one they came from.
Regarding unaccountable evangelical pastors, I suppose seasonal church scandals are the price that must be paid for their occasional successes. Maybe many of the people who attend these churches subconsciously accept this trade-off? The interesting question is whether all of these folks would attend better regulated churches if the risky and more exciting alternatives didn't exist.
I think that perhaps the postmodern mindset makes it harder for many people to accept the restrictions of church hierarchy if they're not invested in the church leader as a dynamic and appealing leader. It's the person rather than the job title that attracts their loyalty and obedience. Teachers, politicians and other leaders face the same challenge nowadays.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
This is not universally true - it is equally true that overly charismatic types rarely happy at all in an environment where they might have to persuade other people of the rightness of their views and actually be accountable to someone else.
Well, yes, dynamic individualists sometimes squeeze through, despite the best attempts to keep them at bay!
It may or may not be true that this is the case in Methodist circles, this is not the case in other circles.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I claimed that such individuals do sometimes squeeze through in highly regulated denominations. Are you saying that this never happens, or that it happens frequently?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I claimed that such individuals do sometimes squeeze through in highly regulated denominations. Are you saying that this never happens, or that it happens frequently?
No, I don't think there is a huge effort to 'keep them at bay'. Though the more extremes sort of those people won't really be drawn to an environment with much oversight.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
chris stiles
What I was getting at is that the processes for choosing candidates are likely to favour certain kinds of people and disfavour others. The effect is to keep certain people at bay, firstly because they'll be disinclined to apply and will go elsewhere, as you say, and also because if they do apply, they're likely to be misunderstood. The goal is to find and train people suited to maintaining the parish system and pursuing faithful pastoral work, rather than ending up with the extrovert who's burning to plant their own alternative form of church on a housing estate, for example.
It's interesting that on the Ship some of the CofE's evangelical clergy are accused of behaving like arrogant free agents, moving their churches in a congregationalist direction, and bypassing hierarchical and parish procedures - all of which suggests that some of these people do get through! But it seems clear to me that people like this are largely (if subconsciously) kept away from the ministry in traditional historical denominations, for the reasons mentioned above. This is the view of Peter Williams in this article about the CofE, expressed on pp. 135-137:
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/anvil/26-2_123.pdf
For any job, you want candidates who are going to fit in. How are you going to make use of the ones who don't?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's interesting that on the Ship some of the CofE's evangelical clergy are accused of behaving like arrogant free agents, moving their churches in a congregationalist direction, and bypassing hierarchical and parish procedures - all of which suggests that some of these people do get through! But it seems clear to me that people like this are largely (if subconsciously) kept away from the ministry in traditional historical denominations, for the reasons mentioned above. This is the view of Peter Williams in this article about the CofE, expressed on pp. 135-137:
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/anvil/26-2_123.pdf
For any job, you want candidates who are going to fit in. How are you going to make use of the ones who don't?
If the CofE doesn't want people like that, then please point them in the BU's direction. They often lead growing churches making an impact in their localities.
We have some experience in dealing with mavericks - or rather living with them, otherwise a lot of us wouldn't be in ministry. Besides which we don't have a hierarchy or systems to speak of, so that should make their task easier.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's interesting that on the Ship some of the CofE's evangelical clergy are accused of behaving like arrogant free agents, moving their churches in a congregationalist direction, and bypassing hierarchical and parish procedures - all of which suggests that some of these people do get through! But it seems clear to me that people like this are largely (if subconsciously) kept away from the ministry in traditional historical denominations, for the reasons mentioned above. This is the view of Peter Williams in this article about the CofE, expressed on pp. 135-137:
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/anvil/26-2_123.pdf
For any job, you want candidates who are going to fit in. How are you going to make use of the ones who don't?
If the CofE doesn't want people like that, then please point them in the BU's direction. They often lead growing churches making an impact in their localities.
We have some experience in dealing with mavericks - or rather living with them, otherwise a lot of us wouldn't be in ministry. Besides which we don't have a hierarchy or systems to speak of, so that should make their task easier.
The problem is that these people often like using the CoE's resources...
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
|
Posted
Bible fairly stuffed with mavericks though.......
Seems to me that being a christian is hard enough, but being a christian leader is tbh a whole other ball game.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The goal is to find and train people suited to maintaining the parish system and pursuing faithful pastoral work, rather than ending up with the extrovert who's burning to plant their own alternative form of church on a housing estate, for example.
In general there are plenty of avenues that people can pursue to get into the Anglican ministry and there are plenty of routes you can go down if you want to be in the Anglican ministry and plant churches (as your next paragraph alludes to). If there is a problem the solution isn't to add to the list those who would want to do so while not having any oversight.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Well, the CofE can only be true to itself, and that obviously involves remaining faithful to its structures and procedures.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Why are we discussing the CofE here? This church is a Victory Church, loosely linked to the Elim Pentecostal church and absolutely nothing to do with the CofE. And local experience of Elim Pentecostal suggests no real oversight of local churches and groups - actually very little support from fellow ministers either as they are so spread out.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Well, to get this back on track, it's disappointing, although sadly not entirely surprising, that to date there's a deafening silence from Victory Church, from Victory Outreach of which Richard Taylor is or was CEO, and indeed Elim (even if they are only tangentially involved).
This is what happened when the issue of plagiarism was raised. The church simply pulled the evidence and did nothing more (at least publicly).
It's only right that the church membership should hear news first, but if a church has a national reputation and is seeking to give itself a national platform, it ought to communicate difficult news using the same media as it used to promote itself. They are doing nobody any favours by saying absolutely nothing.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Why are we discussing the CofE here? This church is a Victory Church, loosely linked to the Elim Pentecostal church and absolutely nothing to do with the CofE. And local experience of Elim Pentecostal suggests no real oversight of local churches and groups - actually very little support from fellow ministers either as they are so spread out.
[Because the contention seemed to be that this kind of episode was a side effect of attracting the more entrepreneurial types that other denominations had difficulty attracting.]
Back on the the main topic I agree with you - Elim Churches are often left to their own devices, and the main corrective tends to be having elders with strong opinions of their own - though they end up requiring a lot of tacit congregational support to get stuff done. Which in practice means that the easiest issues to deal with are the moral ones (as they are clearcut, easily understood and ones on which everyone can agree). Financial problems and spiritual drift can go on for quite a while before they are checked.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
It seems to me that there are inherent problems in revivalism per se. Just as there are inherent problems in churches that don't go in for that particular form of enthusiasm.
I think SvitlanaV2 is right to some extent - if there weren't enthusiastic and revivalist churches around then most of the people involved with such groups wouldn't be in any form of church at all.
As for leadership shenanigans, church politics on a wider connectional level and on a congregational level - I'm not aware of any church grouping that doesn't suffer from that.
It applies whether we are talking about Rome, about the various Orthodox jurisdictions, whether we're talking about the Anglican communion, the Baptists, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Pentecostals, independent charismatics or whatever else.
Where there are people there are politics.
That applies as much to a closed order of nuns as it does to a happy-clappy charismatic church.
On the Cwmbran thing - I'd be wary of some things said locally down there - there are other churches around which resented the apparent 'success' of Victory Church and had been out to knock it from Day One. I grew up there, I know what it's like.
That said, I think this is an accident that's been waiting to happen. Churches of that kind aren't geared up to deal with this sort of thing that effectively.
As to whether there was a move of God down there - no, I don't believe there was. Nobody else knew anything about it. The only people who were aware of it - from what I can gather - were people in the churches. The rest of the population remained unaffected and indifferent.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
As for the blog referenced in the OP. The rather gloating tone is a bit of a give-away. Plus, anyone who styles themselves to be an 'End Times Specialist' in terms of their teaching ministry is clearly signalling that they'll be promulgating some kind of whacky eschatological theories of their own.
I'd give his group as wide a berth as I'd give Victory Church to be honest.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd give his group as wide a berth as I'd give Victory Church to be honest.
And then some.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I agree with Green Mario that there is moral failure on the blog (albeit of a different kind), especially in the comments, as well as in the original alleged misdeeds.
But on balance I prefer the allegations (if substantiated) to be made public than swept under the carpet, which is why I've highlighted the failure of those who are in a position to make a more formal statement to do so.
The blog is enjoying the success it is, despite being vitriolic and self-righteous in tone, because respectable and supposedly upright christians are not speaking out even though there's a genuine concern.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Wait and see. If the allegations are sufficiently serious then things will come out sooner or later.
I agree that there will have been systemic issues of some kind or other - no church is immune from those sort of failings.
In churches of this kind, though, the heightening of expectations and general hype level militates against cool heads and objectivity.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
@daronmedway - that too.
One of the problems in South Wales is that everyone has grown up with this very idealised and mythic notion of the Welsh Revival.
I'm not knocking the Welsh Revival - but it was nothing like the hype one hears. Richmond Road Baptist Church in Pontnewydd - the village which is now part of Cwmbran and where this guy with the gloating blog seems to hang out - baptised 60 people during the 18 months of the Revival.
That's impressive. But it was nowhere near the majority of the population. My paternal great-grandparents were living in Pontnewydd at that time and none of them were caught up in the Revival ... if anything they probably reacted against it. My Granddad was an atheist and free-thinker, partly in reaction to the 'chapel culture' around him.
Everyone bangs on and on about the Revival and how marvellous it all was. What they don't mention are the number of people who were put off by it all.
There was something very censorious about the whole thing.
If anything, though, the Puritanical, Calvinistic tendency has been taken up by South Walian secularism ... there's something very censorious about that too.
Meanwhile, those churches with a revivalist mentality are waiting with some kind of false expectation of further revivals without actually understanding what the 19th and early 20th century revivals in Wales actually entailed.
I'm not saying that God wasn't involved with the revivals - but they weren't as they are imagined in the popular revivalist imagination.
What we've had in Cwmbran is simply yet another example of fervid revivalism that has caught hold for a short time ... mostly fuelled by charismatic and Pentecostal tourism and day-trippers.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The blog is enjoying the success it is, despite being vitriolic and self-righteous in tone, because respectable and supposedly upright christians are not speaking out even though there's a genuine concern.
This comes back to what I said about the particular accountability model above. The blog obviously has it's own axe to grind - otoh, I suspect that a charge of plagiarism sinks because it doesn't seem like a 'serious' failing - after all look at all the people being baptised, healed etc. Whereas the censorious impulses come out as soon as there is an alleged moral failing (usually these words are used to mean some kind of sexual sin).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One of the problems in South Wales is that everyone has grown up with this very idealised and mythic notion of the Welsh Revival.
Everyone bangs on and on about the Revival and how marvellous it all was. What they don't mention are the number of people who were put off by it all.
The Welsh Revival was very much a function of its (economic) times. Life was tough, wages were falling - where else to turn to than the church?
Evan Roberts preached himself dry and became a recluse for the rest of his life (some 40 years).
Where is the fruit of it all today? Not in the chapels that are warehouses or derelict, that's for sure.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One of the problems in South Wales is that everyone has grown up with this very idealised and mythic notion of the Welsh Revival.
Not only that, but also that God is going to repeat 1904 again, in exactly the same way - large-scale preachathons and massed four-part hymn-singing. I was chatting to a local Baptist minister a few weeks ago. He was ministering in a town of around around 8000 with the usual surfeit of large chapel buildings, all being held together by small congregations. He managed to get two of the Baptist chapels to amalgamate and concentrate their resources in one place and proposed a meeting with the other chapels in town to see if there was any appetite for further union (none of the other denominations apart from the CinW had congregations large enough to maintain their own minister). The meeting was going quite well and he thought that things were starting to move forward (moving beyond attachment to buildings and all the rest of it), when someone stood up and made an impassioned speech reminding everyone that the town would need all of the chapels and the miles of empty pews when the next revival came. The meeting ended.
Since then, the 600-seater Calvinistic Methodist and 400-seater URC chapels have both shut their doors.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
Since then, the 600-seater Calvinistic Methodist and 400-seater URC chapels have both shut their doors.
But they would have closed their doors even if the congregations had amalgamated. Only the precise circumstances would have been different.
Amalgamation is frequently necessary nowadays, but it's not a solution for every church. Amalgamated churches often continue to struggle.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If anything, though, the Puritanical, Calvinistic tendency has been taken up by South Walian secularism ... there's something very censorious about that too.
You are aware that the Reformed tradition has a very strong "rational" mythos. A belief in itself as being more developed than other forms of faith and therefore without the trappings of superstition. Of course, the habit of the Reformed of pushing everything beyond reasonable limit means that there are thus good grounds to think that people like Dawkins have just taken the mythos to its extreme conclusion!
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Oh yes indeed, Jengie Jon, which is why some of the Orthodox I've met blame the Reformation for atheism ... they feel that secularism is simply the Reformation ethos pushed through the Enlightenment to its logical secularist conclusion ...
I was at the Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius conference this week and Wales came up in the conversation, with several of the Orthodox blaming Calvinism and post-Calvinism for the secularisation of the Principality ...
Meanwhile, in response to ExclamationMark, yes, I think there were plenty of socio-economic and cultural influences on the Welsh Revival but I would be as wary of taking an overly reductionist approach in that direction as I would in seeing the whole thing as a 'sovereign move of Almighty God' which was how it was always framed in the Valleys when I was growing up.
As Below The Lansker points out, this notion of 'fires of revival igniting once again' is part of the psyche down there - even in quite dry and undemonstrative chapels.
Of course, these 'fires of revival' are always seen as most likely to happen in one's own backyard rather than anyone else's.
There were a number of churches around Cwmbran that claimed to be the real 'source' of the so-called 'outpouring'.
It was an outpouring alright, an outpouring of wishful thinking ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But they would have closed their doors even if the congregations had amalgamated. Only the precise circumstances would have been different.
Amalgamation is frequently necessary nowadays, but it's not a solution for every church. Amalgamated churches often continue to struggle.
I agree that amalgamating is not a solution for every church, but if you've got a total of 200-250 nonconformists in a town - two congregations will still have the critical mass to be able to organise children's or young people's work, or other activities and also support some form of regular ministry. If those same 200-250 people are in 10 different congregations, very few of them are going to be able to do very much, especially when so much of their effort is aimed at keeping the roof on (and the pews polished for when the chapels are full again).
Posts: 144 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
