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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Is it really worth it?
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
On Sunday evening I worshipped at an Anglican church with a strong choral tradition.
However, apart from the Choir and the Vicar, there were precisely five people in the congregation, including the Beadle (if that's the right word), myself and the Vicar's mother, visiting for the weekend. So only two "ordinary" worshippers.
I grant that it was the end of school half-term and that some people may have been away ... but it did struck me that this was a costly and time-consuming exercise, especially as there had been three other services during the day.
I understand both the principle of singing the regular Office, and that praise can be offered to God even with no congregation present. But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
[ 10. January 2015, 16:49: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
I would suggest a pertinent passage to look at would be
John 12:1-8. I admit my gut instinct is to side with Judas and say that it is impractical and that if a significant cost is being incurred to deem it unnecessary, suggesting some cut backs.
Yet Jesus' response seems to indicate that worship is more important. As someone who works in finance, with stewardship over other people's money, I find this quite a tough passage to swallow.
I could argue either way, but both seem to come down to a matter of what takes priority: worship or practicality. Tough call.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
How many in the choir?
Perhaps the choir are the congregation?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Certainly when we have Choral Evensong the choir is often the same size as the congregation or even a little bigger. This doesn't really worry me as the small gathering is often more worshipful than the large congregation of the morning. Ours is an historic church and even with a small congregation there is often the sensation of the presence of the many thousands of worshippers who have sat in the church in years past.I actually find this very comforting.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Wm Dewy
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# 16712
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Posted
I was taught that we sing the Office to the greater Glory of God and not for the entertainment of our fellow sinners.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Yes, ken has it right - the choir is the congregation (or part of it).
It may well be that Choral Evensong is a very important part of the spiritual life of the choir members (or some of them), and to do away with it would possibly diminish that life.......IYSWIM.
Does the parish of the OP pay its choir? For if they are all volunteers, so to speak, there is surely minimal cost over and above heating and lighting the church.
Could the same service be held in a smaller space e.g. the chancel, with choir on one side and t'others on t'other side? I've been to an Evensong or two where this has worked well.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Perhaps the choir are the congregation?
True ... but I don't think they would have been there had it been a "said" service; certainly not the young choristers.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Does the parish of the OP pay its choir? For if they are all volunteers, so to speak, there is surely minimal cost over and above heating and lighting the church.
That is the question to which I have no complete answer. I know that the youngsters receive an honorarium (but it may not be on a "per service" basis); the Music Director is on a salary; I suspect the organist receives a fee; I simply don't know about the older gentlemen singers. It is all an Anglican mystery to me!
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Perhaps the choir are the congregation?
True ... but I don't think they would have been there had it been a "said" service; certainly not the young choristers.
Well there you go then - a very good reason for the service being sung!
(I'm not sure I follow the point about the service being 'expensive' however - parish musicians are not usually paid so the only cost is the lighting I guess).
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Hairy Biker
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# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It may well be that Choral Evensong is a very important part of the spiritual life of the choir members (or some of them), and to do away with it would possibly diminish that life.......IYSWIM.
My experience of churches with a strong choral tradition has been that the choir is substantially atheist and attend only for the sake of making beautiful music with people whose company they enjoy. The church gives them a cheap venue in which to perform, subsidised by the poor of the parish. (It may be the case that choir members are large donors to the church in these parishes; I have no information on the details of the parishes I know.)
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
WTF? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
This may be true of some choristers, but surely not the majority? And, anyway, how can you tell (e.g. at a service of Choral Evensong) whether the choristers are or are not atheists?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
Yes.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It may well be that Choral Evensong is a very important part of the spiritual life of the choir members (or some of them), and to do away with it would possibly diminish that life.......IYSWIM.
My experience of churches with a strong choral tradition has been that the choir is substantially atheist and attend only for the sake of making beautiful music with people whose company they enjoy. The church gives them a cheap venue in which to perform, subsidised by the poor of the parish. (It may be the case that choir members are large donors to the church in these parishes; I have no information on the details of the parishes I know.)
In a university college setting, this may be true of half if not more of the choir. Some are choral scholars, others like the performance, especially the camper young men.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
As a non-CofE person I appreciate Sung Evensong these days, even though it's not terribly popular at the church where I go. Perhaps the CofE is trying to maintain the tradition at a small number of churches in each area while cutting things back elsewhere?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Sorry, but ISTM to be arrogant and judgemental to assume (as it were) that those who like, enjoy, and appreciate Choral Evensong may somehow be either atheists or *gasp* gay (or even both)......
Not sure about some sort of deliberate local provision, though it does look that way in some places, cathedrals excepted, of course. No harm in that, I think, as long as such services are well-presented and well-advertised!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Sorry, but ISTM to be arrogant and judgemental to assume (as it were) that those who like, enjoy, and appreciate Choral Evensong may somehow be either atheists or *gasp* gay (or even both)......
Not sure about some sort of deliberate local provision, though it does look that way in some places, cathedrals excepted, of course. No harm in that, I think, as long as such services are well-presented and well-advertised!
Ian J.
There was neither arrogance nor malice intended nor any assumption made. I'm speaking of an environment in which I live and work daily.
As long as a choir performs well I have no problem whatsoever with its members' beliefs or tastes. For a good performance is praise to God, even where the performers might not intend it.
[ 25. February 2014, 15:34: Message edited by: Gottschalk ]
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
Posts: 157 | From: The Kingdom of Fife | Registered: Nov 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
ISTM - speaking as a member of a choir - that Choral Evensong is a service that is really for the benefit of the musicians. I don't like attending Evensong as a member of the congregation, but on the rare occasions when our church does it I have enjoyed singing it.
Oh - and just for the record - I am most definitely not an atheist. I have not cross-examined all the other members of my church choir on their theological beliefs (if any) but all the ones I know well are not atheists either.
I should imagine that a fair number of the congregation at any cathedral evensong will be tourists trying to avoid the entrance fee; they may or may not be atheists. I once refused to go to Evensong at the local cathedral because I'd already been to church once that day. The guy who invited me to go was an agnostic.
And if some members of the choir are only there because they like the music, what of it? Does evangelism only count if you're waving a Bible in someone's face and foaming at the mouth? How can you be sure that the Holy Spirit isn't working on non-Christian members of the choir through their love of choral singing?
Fifteen years or so after the incident I mentioned earlier, that agnostic was a regular member of the cathedral congregation (and yes - I was surprised).
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
We are the last church in the town to offer any form of regular evening worship and we have sung or choral evensong for 3 out of 4/5 weeks of the month. Generally the choir has 12-18 members and the congregation is between 2-10. Whist the choir continue to want to worship in this way it will continue but questions are asked about how viable this is in the long term as the church is very expensive to heat in the winter. Our Messy Church style late Sunday afternoon early evening service which happens on one Sunday a month brings in 50-70 people.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Sorry, but ISTM to be arrogant and judgemental to assume (as it were) that those who like, enjoy, and appreciate Choral Evensong may somehow be either atheists or *gasp* gay (or even both)......
Yes it is.
Our choir changes every three years, it being the university church choir, so it varies but, currently only three of the don't come to the rail for communion.
I relish the chance of 'preaching to the choir'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
OhMyGoodness. Just for the record: i adore choral evensong and hey, am not musician, chorister, gay or a atheist.( And even were i, so what?)
Nor am i doging cathedral entrance fees.
Why provide choral evensong? Because after a busy day, choral evensong is a haven of peace in an otherwise hectic world.
God BLESS any church which provides it
[ 25. February 2014, 16:14: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
There was neither arrogance nor malice intended nor any assumption made. I'm speaking of an environment in which I live and work daily.
That is as may be but please try to refrain from using terms or arguments which could be construed as homophobic. It is quite clear that you *are* making assumptions - specifically, about the motives of church-goers - which do not, I think, help the discussion.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
To say that services sans congregations are pointless shows a dispiriting lack of faith in the power of prayer, I should think. And since he who sings prays twice and all that...
Some of the least well attended services at my church are the most prayerful (to me: I have no idea what High Mass is like for everyone else, but for me it's busy): without said Mattins before Sunday Mass, which is only ever attended by priest and servers, I would feel adrift during the Mass. Who's to say that some, if not all, of those present at a scantly attended choral evensong feel the same way?
The office is primarily a wellspring from which to draw strength, particularly for the clergy and chapter (and a regular choir and severs is much the same thing in many parish churches) not a bums-on-seats evangelising opportunity (though it can be: choral evensong brought me to the faith, and I know I am not alone). To obsess about how well it is attended, or how much it costs, is t miss the point.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
There was neither arrogance nor malice intended nor any assumption made. I'm speaking of an environment in which I live and work daily.
That is as may be but please try to refrain from using terms or arguments which could be construed as homophobic. It is quite clear that you *are* making assumptions - specifically, about the motives of church-goers - which do not, I think, help the discussion.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
Dear Host,
With all due respect, and a clarification - I was speaking of people I know. Therefore I was not assuming anything.
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
Posts: 157 | From: The Kingdom of Fife | Registered: Nov 2007
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Gottschalk: If you wish to respond to a hostly ruling in any way then the place for that is the Styx. Please start a thread there if you wish to clarify, challenge or otherwise respond to any aspect of dj_ordinaire's post.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
To obsess about how well it is attended, or how much it costs, is t miss the point.
For an organisation with unlimited money and other resources, I agree that obsessing about the cost would be missing the point. But which organisations have unlimited money? For all those whose funds are limited, surely they have to consider whether running a service with such a low attendance is a good use of that money.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I suppose an alabaster jar of ointment would be out of the question then.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've heard Evensong described on the Ship as 'one of the CofE's best kept secrets'. I don't know why it should be a secret. If there are people out there who might benefit from that sort of thing why isn't more said about it?
Many folk probably don't even realise that such services are available outside cathedrals. I wouldn't have known much about Evensong if the loss of my own church and my uncertainty afterwards hadn't forced me to consider what a nearby CofE church had to offer.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Making an effort to produce the best you can in musical terms is part of a long tradition including the masons and artists who did the same with their skills. Many of the most amazing features in cathedrals and churches are so high up, they cannot be seen with the naked eye. So they can only be for God, not man.
The choir most definitely are also congregation. There are plenty of choral societies which perform sacred music, so in most cases church choristers are there for more than the singing (even if, in some cases, that need is not overtly named). Choir humour is typically self-deprecating, so you will rarely hear a chorister explaining their faith in terribly earnest tones, but the faith can be very deep indeed. To assert otherwise is quite offensive.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
(cross posted with Svitlana) I think years ago, knowledge of Evensong was an assumed given. Now, you are right, it does need to be promoted / advertised more. People need an explanation of what happens and why it can be so beneficial to attend. Also, that there is nothing to be 'frightened' of (possibly a help to those who feel nervous about the whole Eucharist thing).
Perhaps Westminster Abbey could play a part in this, they have the best attended evensongs I've ever come across. The message needs to get out that, once people have returned home again, they can find these services (albeit with not such a world famous choir) taking place in towns and cities throughout the land.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We get 50 odd to Choral Evensong, including the choir. It's partly because it is run the night that the all-age lay-led worship runs in the morning, and people who prefer a more traditional service come to Evensong in preference. The experimental alternative Sunday evening services are the ones that get fewer attendees.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
How many angels and archangels turned up?
And God was there.
I'm sure he'd miss it if no one came.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
South Coast Kevin: quote:
For all those whose funds are limited, surely they have to consider whether running a service with such a low attendance is a good use of that money.
Many C of E services run with congregations of around 30. An Evensong attended by five people plus a choir of 20 isn't far off that mark.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
1. St Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
2. Prayer of St Chrysostom ... when two or three are gathered together in thy Name thou wilt grant their requests:....
IME a proper, well-conducted service of Evensong has been the way in to church for many people, especially those who have had minimal formal religious experience growing up and who encounter it as adults. Unlike a communion service, Evensong (or Matins, for that matter) makes no demands on a chance visitor.
You may also find that Evensong is the only occasion on which complete Psalms are used in a liturgy. IMO the way that the Psalms have been sidelined in most parishes is profoundly depressing: the subject matter covered by Psalms is very wide-ranging and can be 'relevant' to so many situations.
Quite apart from that, the BCP Psalms are beautiful.
As for the sheer number of choir: in my own church it is through the choir and its music that most of the new members of the congregation in the last 15 years have been added.
Moreover, despite the 'Family' service, it is only those families with children in the choir who keep on coming after the last child has got the place at the local CofE school. And the only teenagers who come regularly are those in the choir - and they come back in the vacations after they have gone on to university.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
IME a proper, well-conducted service of Evensong has been the way in to church for many people, especially those who have had minimal formal religious experience growing up and who encounter it as adults. Unlike a communion service, Evensong (or Matins, for that matter) makes no demands on a chance visitor.
Evensong is indeed an enormously powerful evangelistic tool. Having worked in a cathedral with daily evensong, I know numerous people whose first serious involvement with the Church was at 5pm on a weekday after work. Many of them went on to much greater involvement and some to ordination.
Another part of it is that evensong in many ways matches what people (certainly in some contexts) expect the Church to provide. So when they go along, it doesn't seem entirely foreign.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Evensong is greatly loved by those who know it, and for those who discover it, it's like coming across a wonderful secret. It has great evangelistic power; chaplains in colleges and cathedrals and parish priests in those places where it is a regular service find people coming to faith who came originally just for the music.
Looking for something in the way of an encomium to put on one of our posters, I discovered this:
'More accessible than the Sistine Chapel, more inspiring than the Western Wall, more easily reached than the Dome of the Rock, Sung Evensong represents at once the most rousing and soothing aspects of faith.'
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
When people have been shopping or playing tourist in a cathedral city, there's nothing better than resting weary legs and tired minds at evensong to end the day. Perhaps a sign could be put outside the cathedrals for an hour before the service starts, announcing this fact? We do seem to live in a culture, these days, when people don't turn up to anything unless it is overtly advertised.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Chorister quote:
We do seem to live in a culture, these days, when people don't turn up to anything unless it is overtly advertised.
And when they turn up they expect a degree of professionalism, which is why offering services which are badly planned, chaotic, with service sheets full of typos, followed by dreadful coffee is more effective at keeping people out of church than any fire-and-brimstone sermon.
The beauty of Evensong and Matins is that they're almost impossible to foul-up. And a well-rehearsed choir - even just singing hymns - signing with feeling and sympathy for words and music may reach more hearts than a puerile or random sermon.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When people have been shopping or playing tourist in a cathedral city, there's nothing better than resting weary legs and tired minds at evensong to end the day. Perhaps a sign could be put outside the cathedrals for an hour before the service starts, announcing this fact?
I agree entirely - but we are not a cathedral city or a tourist destination. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The beauty of Evensong and Matins is that they're almost impossible to foul-up.
Oh, I don't know. I went to Oxford last year, and we worshipped for two nights running at a Collegiate church (I choose my words wisely). On the first night the "proper" choir sang, and it was brilliant. The following night the "student" choir sang, and it was definitely not brilliant.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... The beauty of Evensong and Matins is that they're almost impossible to foul-up. ...
I regret that that just is not true. When one now encounters Evensong, or the much rarer these days Matins, it is usually done with a proper choir that has chosen to do it that way. That was not how we usually experienced them back in the days when all services were 1662. What a typical village church made of them in the 1960s was frequently excruciating. The set canticles were usually fairly bad, but a poor choir trying to lead an unmusical congregation chanting an unfamiliar psalm from a prayer book which was unpointed - but they wouldn't have been able to read pointing anyway - was a religious experience in a dimension special and peculiar to itself.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When people have been shopping or playing tourist in a cathedral city, there's nothing better than resting weary legs and tired minds at evensong to end the day. Perhaps a sign could be put outside the cathedrals for an hour before the service starts, announcing this fact?
I agree entirely - but we are not a cathedral city or a tourist destination. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Actually, if your town has nothing going for it after 4pm on Sundays that's probably all the more reason to have at least one church offering an evening service of some sort. But it should be advertised so people have some idea of what it's about.
The main issue I have, though, is that IME once a church puts a stop to one of its options for worship or fellowship, it's extremely hard to start again at a later point. Churches shouldn't just stop doing something unless they've reflected on how to replace that gap in some other way. Perhaps it's expensive to have regular Evensong with a choir of 10 and only 5 attenders (say) - but what will those 15 people do if Evensong is dropped? Will their commitment to that church wane? If the church has a regular attendance of 50 people a week, 15 people is 30% of that, which is rather significant.
I think churches should put all of their services under review and to deconstruct what they do, and why they do it. But until they do that, cutting down on services for financial reasons alone will probably exacerbate their problems. Closing churches just to save money has a similar effect.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[ What a typical village church made of them in the 1960s was frequently excruciating. The set canticles were usually fairly bad, but a poor choir trying to lead an unmusical congregation chanting an unfamiliar psalm from a prayer book which was unpointed - but they wouldn't have been able to read pointing anyway - was a religious experience in a dimension special and peculiar to itself.
Quite. I can't be doing with Anglican chant sung in unison by a congregation - why can't we have Gregorian chant such as St Gregory who evanglised us be proxy wanted?
But the answer to the OP is that it is none of our business what the church in question does. If they choose to continue with Evensong with a minimal number of attenders, that is up to them.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But the answer to the OP is that it is none of our business what the church in question does. If they choose to continue with Evensong with a minimal number of attenders, that is up to them.
I don't disagree with that at all ... but it has been interesting to read the comments.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I can't be doing with Anglican chant sung in unison by a congregation - why can't we have Gregorian chant such as St Gregory who evanglised us be proxy wanted?
He wanted it sung out of sync?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Actually, if your town has nothing going for it after 4pm on Sundays that's probably all the more reason to have at least one church offering an evening service of some sort.
Well that, or have evensong at 4pm so that it catches people who are around before they go home.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
... Why provide choral evensong? Because ... choral evensong is a haven of peace in an otherwise hectic world.
God BLESS any church which provides it
Well said, EA. I sing in our cathedral choir (adult, voluntary), and we're one of only four choirs in the whole of Canada that sings two fully choral services (Eucharist and Evensong) every Sunday. It matters not a whit that there are more in the choir than in the congregation for Evensong: as someone pointed out above, we're singing to the glory of God.
It's true that on weekdays, when the services are said, it's unlikely that any of the choir will be present, but that doesn't mean that we regard the choral services as mere "performances".
When I get the chance (not often enough) I thoroughly enjoy attending Evensong as a member of the congregation, especially at another cathedral or (better still) King's or St. John's in Cambridge. I invariably come away feeling inspired by the beautiful music and liturgy; the faith (or absence of it) of the singers is none of my business.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
It is to their credit that they have a choir at all . And as has been said previously, the choir is part of the congregation.
I would argue that to get such a turn out on a Sunday evening these days in the CofE is pretty good going and they should be congratulated.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Actually, if your town has nothing going for it after 4pm on Sundays that's probably all the more reason to have at least one church offering an evening service of some sort.
Well that, or have evensong at 4pm so that it catches people who are around before they go home.
and stops those who would come out specially for an evening service from coming out. 4pm is not evening! If you have things you must do during the day, 4pm is almost certainly in the middle of the time you are planning to do them in.
I should perhaps say I am not going to evensong tonight at the Cathedral for this very reason.
Jengie
[ 02. March 2014, 16:40: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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