Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the famous rachel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:



Of course, I could read, paint, write books, express myself on the internet or with friends but it wouldn't be enough.

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Oh, and this bit takes the cake. Women shouldn't go back to work, contribute to the economy, use their training and potentially help others. No, we should stay home and pursue hobbies? Because while I am painting my masterpiece whilst simultaneously dictating my novel and using my toes to tap out messages to my friends on the internet, my child clearly has my fullest attention, and is receiving much better quality of care than he could anywhere else. Good to know.

There are plenty of mums out their following this advice, and their kids watch an awful lot of television. My Mum pursued a similar path, and stuck me in a play pen to achieve it. I don't remember her playing with me at all. A lot of our interactions that I do remember came through me trying desperately to engage with her hobbies, which I pretended to like. Of course she had post-natal depression, so we should probably cut her some slack. Oh wait.... not that's not what we do if we follow Twilight's example...

go and do seaside-themed crafts at the local museum and watch a Punch and Judy show. Twilight and anyone else nasty enough to join her can continue their foul insinuations without me.

R.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I appreciate you're exaggerating for effect (at least I assume so). But rachel, anoesis and I are describing something far more prosaic than that.

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I don't understand what you mean by prosaic here. And I don't think I'm exaggerating for effect. I'm arguing children are better off being cared for (especially in the early years) by family than by childcare.

I'm arguing parents should not be brainwashed into thinking "just raising kids" is not a valuable thing to do. I think it's THE most valuable thing a mother AND a father will ever do ( I do believe both are necessary and if you can get grandparents and extended family involved even better).

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Only Evensong didn't say a word about vaccinations, just as I didn't say a word about needlepoint or crafts. This tendency to present images that will fit an unpopular stereotype is not helping.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Your discussion with CK about the science reminds me of why these arguments are like those about vaccination:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Only Evensong didn't say a word about vaccinations,

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

The concept of a 'simile' floats on by, unrecognised, like a ghost.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Only Evensong didn't say a word about vaccinations, just as I didn't say a word about needlepoint or crafts. This tendency to present images that will fit an unpopular stereotype is not helping.

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Oh, not on this thread, but on plenty of others—and yup, anti-vaxer.

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It's a public service. I once started a Purgatory thread on the wisdom of healthy adults getting vaccinated against flu. Evensong did a particularly good job of persuading me to get the shot.

--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
But I believe the tide is changing. As I understand it, more well-educated women are giving up their careers and their time to be full-time career mothers and housekeepers.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
OK, I don't accept that childcare is worse than stay at home parenting as a general rule. I think it depends on so many different variables that it's impossible to draw that kind of conclusion.

HOWEVER, even if it is... so fucking what? When did children become more important than everything else in the world combined? Nobody wants to see kids go through abuse, neglect or failure to meet their basic needs, but when did we decide that it was so vitally important that the kid have the absolute perfect upbringing that we could say "fuck it when it comes to mum's choices - she's over ten years old and doesn't matter?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I'm firmly of the view that there's a lower standard which is good enough.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I sometimes say I used to be liberal but liberal moved.

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quote:

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I cannot tell you how common it is for me to talk to 19, 20, 21 year old students, who seem like good people, who discuss liberal and left-wing beliefs as positive ideas, but who shrink from identifying with liberalism and feminism instinctively.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
To expand a bit - Evensong made a claim about the scientific evidence against childcare use, CK provides the science to refute it, Evensong says it's the wrong sort of science, etc etc...

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
To expand a bit - Evensong made a claim about the scientific evidence against childcare use, CK provides the science to refute it, Evensong says it's the wrong sort of science, etc etc...

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quote:

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If you truly have to work then, I'm sorry, but if you just want to then I think you should say so and not pretend that your child is as well off in daycare as she would be if you were home with her, because science doesn't back you up.

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quote:

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There was an important confounding variable in this study that must be kept in mind when interpreting the findings. Those children who started day care earliest tended to come from the wealthiest families. Thus the reason they did better could have been because they came from the most advantaged families.

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quote:

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n one of the most extensive studies of childminding in the UK, Mayall & Petrie (1977) found that only 1 in 4 [childcare centres ]were of good quality, a half were less than satisfactory and 1 in 5 were of poor quality. A third of childminders give up childminding each year.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Cotton wool wrappers and helecopter parents are the last thing they need.

When we all visited my brother's farm mine were exploring the woods, playing in the barns, making rope swings from the beams and climbing everything they could see.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
So what's your problem?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
OK, I don't accept that childcare is worse than stay at home parenting as a general rule. I think it depends on so many different variables that it's impossible to draw that kind of conclusion.

HOWEVER, even if it is... so fucking what? When did children become more important than everything else in the world combined? Nobody wants to see kids go through abuse, neglect or failure to meet their basic needs, but when did we decide that it was so vitally important that the kid have the absolute perfect upbringing that we could say "fuck it when it comes to mum's choices - she's over ten years old and doesn't matter?"

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Thank you for bringing this perspective to the conversation. I wouldn't have had the courage to raise it myself, having already let on that I have children, and one of them is still a pre-schooler. I think 'making your children your top priority' is one of those things that is difficult to pin down how to actually do in all but the starkest situations. I mean, if there is only room in the lifeboat for me OR my child, then my child gets the berth. No question about it. But does that mean that all aspects of everyday life should be arranged around them? I don't know - this sort of stuff creeps up on you anyway.

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This reminds me of Moth. Wasn't it Moth, who, for a while had a signature that said something like "I would give my life for my children. But it's not Plan A."



--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Cotton wool wrappers and helecopter parents are the last thing they need.

When we all visited my brother's farm mine were exploring the woods, playing in the barns, making rope swings from the beams and climbing everything they could see.

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I agree. And your description above could well describe my homeschooled children. Children need to not be wrapped in cotton wool, they need to be allowed to take risks, and they need to be allowed to fail.

On the other hand, our children have friends who are completely overprotected by helicopter mothers, but who nevertheless have been placed in childcare and are now in public school.

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Which shows to me that it's attitude which matters - not our childcare choices.



--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
Twilight made this claim:
If you truly have to work then, I'm sorry, but if you just want to then I think you should say so and not pretend that your child is as well off in daycare as she would be if you were home with her, because science doesn't back you up.

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• all childcare is worse than staying at home with mothers;
• mothers are better at caring for their children than daycare

quote:

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I offerred (sic) a masters thesis that she and Ariston dismissed without bothering to see if the research was sound or not so I got sucked into finding other evidence that supported that paper.

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quote:

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I found evidence from a massive meta analysis from the US govt that showed there were no cognitive benefits to early day care and showed the more kids were in day care the more disruptive their behaviour was and added another few "acceptable" sources to confirm that.

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quote:

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There is evidence that children develop better with a mother who is happy in her work, than a mother who is frustrated by staying at home (Schaffer, 1990)

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I sometimes say I used to be liberal but liberal moved.

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Thought you might appreciate this.

quote:

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I cannot tell you how common it is for me to talk to 19, 20, 21 year old students, who seem like good people, who discuss liberal and left-wing beliefs as positive ideas, but who shrink from identifying with liberalism and feminism instinctively.

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That's been my experience too.

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quote:

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The culture is one of attack, rather than of education. And the claims, typically, are existential: not “this thing you said is problematic from the standpoint of race,” but rather “you’re a racist.” Not “I think there’s some gender issues going here that you should think about,” but “you’re a misogynist.”

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

quote:

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I found evidence from a massive meta analysis from the US govt that showed there were no cognitive benefits to early day care and showed the more kids were in day care the more disruptive their behaviour was and added another few "acceptable" sources to confirm that.

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And you've totally ignored the point that all your research made which is that parenting has more impact on the child's disruptive behaviour than any effects of childcare.

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Posted                      

quote:

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And let's not forget, Twilight is saying all mothers should stay at home full-time caring for their children until their last child is 3, which the research really does not back up.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

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Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I sometimes say I used to be liberal but liberal moved.

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Thought you might appreciate this.

quote:

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I cannot tell you how common it is for me to talk to 19, 20, 21 year old students, who seem like good people, who discuss liberal and left-wing beliefs as positive ideas, but who shrink from identifying with liberalism and feminism instinctively.

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That's been my experience too.

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I did like that! This part rang true for many of my older friends who have worked hard for liberal issues all their lives but are now sometimes called racist or sexist over innocent word choices.

quote:

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The culture is one of attack, rather than of education. And the claims, typically, are existential: not “this thing you said is problematic from the standpoint of race,” but rather “you’re a racist.” Not “I think there’s some gender issues going here that you should think about,” but “you’re a misogynist.”

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
The trouble with all these stupid studies is that they don't test for the spiritual and emotional wellbeing of the kids.

(And by spiritual I don't mean attending church - I mean a strong, positive, centred sense of self).

Might be interesting if they tested for emotional intelligence rather than just physical, intellectual and social intelligence.

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Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
I offerred a masters thesis that she and Ariston dismissed without bothering to see if the research was sound or not so I got sucked into finding other evidence that supported that paper.

I found evidence from a massive meta analysis from the US govt that showed there were no cognitive benefits to early day care and showed the more kids were in day care the more disruptive their behaviour was and added another few "acceptable" sources to confirm that.

My sources were better than Curiosity's sources that showed her belief that there are "several pieces of research showing benefits from daycare from a young age." was incorrect.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by QLib:

*But there's a kind of irony here in that you and Evensong are lashing out with all kinds of ill-informed assertions about people's child care choices - your little sarky piece, Twilight, about woman who think they're too intellectually brilliant to stay at home was a classic - and yet, somehow, it's you guys who are the poor, beleaguered, put-upon ones, the target of a new breed of nasty liberals who are unkind enough not only not to share your opinions, but actually to say so out loud on a bulletin board.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
... parody through exaggeration, something you have done far more of on this thread than anyone else. How else would you describe Rachel's "Either don't allow me to have children or don't educate me to such a high level," but a way of saying I'm too brilliant to stay home with a baby?

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Erm.... you say "you" and then call me on something Rachel said? I'm not sure how much of intelligence is innate, but no, I don't equate someone talking about how they want to use their education with their claiming to be brilliantly clever.

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
To avoid any possible doubt I am posting to let you know that I am bored. Bored, bored, bored, bored, bored.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by QLib:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
... parody through exaggeration, something you have done far more of on this thread than anyone else. How else would you describe Rachel's "Either don't allow me to have children or don't educate me to such a high level," but a way of saying I'm too brilliant to stay home with a baby?

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Erm.... you say "you" and then call me on something Rachel said? I'm not sure how much of intelligence is innate, but no, I don't equate someone talking about how they want to use their education with their claiming to be brilliantly clever.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
There are women who really don't like their children very much and women who love them very much but for some reason are miserable without the stimulation, or public approval, that comes with a paying job. There are women who won't tolerate the sacrifice of losing ground in their career. There are women whose families can't physically survive without the money she earns and there are women who can't have the house or car of their dreams if they don't work outside the home.

I respect some of those women's choices, but not all of them.

Study after study in child development has shown that it's best for children to have the one on one relationship with mother or father for the first three years. No matter how wonderful your child care service is, they don't love your child as much as you do. Some of them may not like your child at all, though they say and do all the correct things, but the child can sense the difference. In the very young groups, the caregivers have to divide their attention over too many children, even in the smaller, more expensive facilities.

If you're positive that your caregiver loves your child as much as you do then it's probably the child's grandmother. In which case, I wonder why she has been asked to make the sacrifices for your child that you are unwilling to make.

You can say you're always there for your child but you are not. You are not there when they are suddenly hurt or frightened, you are not there when they ask their first childish questions about race or gender. You just aren't there. All day long.

If you truly have to work then, I'm sorry, but if you just want to then I think you should say so and not pretend that your child is as well off in daycare as she would be if you were home with her, because science doesn't back you up.

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Posted                       

quote:

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‘The infantry is very different from any other job.

‘The essence of infantry soldiering is to close with the enemy and kill him face to face with bullets, bayonets and grenades. Facing and killing a large and aggressive male enemy soldier – if necessary in hand to hand combat – requires a certain ferocity, aggression and killer instinct that is more characteristic of men than women.

‘Fighting and killing an enemy in close combat is not a right nor an “opportunity” as the Defence Secretary suggests. It is a dreadful, gut-churning, traumatic and incredibly tough job that must be done to defend the country.

‘The politically correct view that men and women are the same and equally capable of every human activity is a dangerous notion when applied to close infantry combat.’

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the famous rachel:
I can find people to tell me how many wrong parenting choices I am making in a million different places. On the rare occasions that the people in question care for me and respect me, I listen pretty hard. However, when the people in questions re-interpret everything I say as an exhibition of gross selfishness in order to make debating points, I don't think I need to engage.

I may well be making the wrong choices for my family, but they are the best wrong choices I can come up with in my unique circumstances. I strongly defend the right of other women (and men) to make very different choices to my own. That' good enough for me.

Rachel.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
How would a woman be treated if captured by enemy soldiers compared to how a man would be treated?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
How would a woman be treated if captured by enemy soldiers compared to how a man would be treated?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by saysay:
Y'all are presenting a vision of being a stay-at-home mother (and a "working" mother) that is completely foreign to me. Even the terminology bothers me, as it implies that SAHMs spends their days staying at home rather than finding community activities that welcome children, free museums, volunteer activities that welcome children, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by saysay:
I can't currently recall what was so wrong with calling them 'homemakers'.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Evensong, the "wrong science" claim refers to this:

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
The trouble with all these stupid studies is that they don't test for the spiritual and emotional wellbeing of the kids.

(And by spiritual I don't mean attending church - I mean a strong, positive, centred sense of self).

Might be interesting if they tested for emotional intelligence rather than just physical, intellectual and social intelligence.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
Good research details assumptions, presuppositions, possible confounding factors ( if not inherently accounted for) and limitations.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

quote:

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‘The infantry is very different from any other job.

‘The essence of infantry soldiering is to close with the enemy and kill him face to face with bullets, bayonets and grenades. Facing and killing a large and aggressive male enemy soldier – if necessary in hand to hand combat – requires a certain ferocity, aggression and killer instinct that is more characteristic of men than women.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Good grief! Don't call me out on something I said two pages ago to Rachel and then act all shocked because I'm responding.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

quote:

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‘The infantry is very different from any other job.

‘The essence of infantry soldiering is to close with the enemy and kill him face to face with bullets, bayonets and grenades. Facing and killing a large and aggressive male enemy soldier – if necessary in hand to hand combat – requires a certain ferocity, aggression and killer instinct that is more characteristic of men than women.

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This disregards that women joining the infantry will be the aggressive, tough, anti-stereotype and that many men fail their stereotype as well.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

But I'm afraid I share his sentiment. Let me make it clear for you. If a woman is captured she will probably be raped multiple times. That's the elephant in the room here.

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quote:

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One of the few academics to have looked into the issue in any detail is Lara Stemple, of the University of California's Health and Human Rights Law Project. Her study Male Rape and Human Rights notes incidents of male sexual violence as a weapon of wartime or political aggression in countries such as Chile, Greece, Croatia, Iran, Kuwait, the former Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia. Twenty-one per cent of Sri Lankan males who were seen at a London torture treatment centre reported sexual abuse while in detention. In El Salvador, 76% of male political prisoners surveyed in the 1980s described at least one incidence of sexual torture. A study of 6,000 concentration-camp inmates in Sarajevo found that 80% of men reported having been raped.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
Good research details assumptions, presuppositions, possible confounding factors ( if not inherently accounted for) and limitations.

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Which is precisely why it contrasts so vividly with some of your own statements.

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I see what you did there. Nice hiding of a category error.

Can you imagine what the ship would be like if each of us detailed our assumptions, presuppositions, possible confounding factors and limitations before we ventured an opinion?

It would be boring as fuck and not a discussion board but a scientific symposium.

OTOH, they tend to come out in the wash (eventually) anyways so maybe it's not a category error. And scientific symposiums often have plenty of debate and disagreement too.

Such is life.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

Can you imagine what the ship would be like if each of us detailed our assumptions, presuppositions, possible confounding factors and limitations before we ventured an opinion?

It would be boring as fuck and not a discussion board but a scientific symposium.

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Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
Good research details assumptions, presuppositions, possible confounding factors ( if not inherently accounted for) and limitations.

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Which is precisely why it contrasts so vividly with some of your own statements.

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I see what you did there. Nice hiding of a category error.

Can you imagine what the ship would be like if each of us detailed our assumptions, presuppositions, possible confounding factors and limitations before we ventured an opinion?

It would be boring as fuck and not a discussion board but a scientific symposium.

OTOH, they tend to come out in the wash (eventually) anyways so maybe it's not a category error. And scientific symposiums often have plenty of debate and disagreement too.

Such is life.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
But here's the thing. Those of us posting on this thread who are 'working' mothers are posting about our actual, everyday, experience. Therefore, no matter how foreign it seems to you, it ain't made up.

And yeah, I mostly did stay at home while I was on maternity leave. I was depressed, and all the other people at mums and kids activities were just too fucking perky to cope with. Until I found a PND support group. I went to that fairly religiously.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
But here's the thing. Those of us posting on this thread who are 'working' mothers are posting about our actual, everyday, experience. Therefore, no matter how foreign it seems to you, it ain't made up.

And yeah, I mostly did stay at home while I was on maternity leave. I was depressed, and all the other people at mums and kids activities were just too fucking perky to cope with. Until I found a PND support group. I went to that fairly religiously.

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And I'm not doubting your experience. It's just that Twilight has experience as a mother in the US and I have experience taking care of my brother's kids in the US. And in the US we don't have the kinds of employment protections you seem to have - a working mom who takes off work too often because her kid is sick or whatever is likely to find herself without a job before too long.

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