|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Dead Horses: Distressed by homophobia
|
DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
|
Posted
I've got involved, through a friend, with a small church that is being planted in London. They aren't yet big enough to hold services, but they have a few big churches elsewhere in the world, some determined people on board and hopes are high. So far, I've done no more than study the Bible with them and attend a few social events which, even though I'm not (yet) a confessing Christian, I've enjoyed.
My problem is that we went out for dinner tonight and everyone there suddenly seems to have turned into an acolyte of the Alpha Course, HTB and Nicky bloody Gumbel. This involves them coming out with what is, to me, the most appallingly homophobic claptrap which reached its nadir with a comment that 'the Holy Spirit can make you straight.'
At the moment, I feel like I'm in a flat spin and any words would be welcome.
[ 09. April 2017, 00:36: Message edited by: Louise ]
--------------------
Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
www.rjpmedia.net
Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
|
Posted
Personally, the words I'd suggest would be: ' Don't be bloody stupid.'
You may want to phrase that another way if you're more polite than me.
Scary stuff when you first come across it. There are many and varied ways to tackle it but which helps most depends on the particular type of homophobe you're dealing with.
Oddly I've tended to find that this is one issue in which people simply refuse to budge. They are more willing to reconsider their views on atonement or womrn in leadership than they are to question what they've been taught about human sexuality. Which is strange. But I think it demonstrates that a large part of all church wittering about homosexuality is rooted in fear of the unfamiliar. Which is sad.
There will be better qualified people along in a minute, but those are my immediate thoughts!
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
'the Holy Spirit can make you straight.'
The Holy Spirit is God, and he certainly can make you straight, just as he can make you gay. It doesn't seem to happen very often, though.
[ 05. July 2013, 23:49: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
Run like the wind boy, run like the wind.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Douglas the Otter
This is why I think it's a good idea for people to become aware of a church's position on these issues before they get deeply involved, if these issues are important to them.
If the organisation that's planting the churches allows for a diversity of views on sexuality then someone in leadership should be able to make that clear to you. If the formal position is as your friends have said, then that should be made clear as well. Once you're discovered which it is, then you can decide what to do. If it's the latter, then no amount of argument from you is going to change things.
As for Alpha, I'd be surprised if a church- planting, evangelistic Christian movement in London DIDN'T approve of Nicky Gumbel!! Why would they disapprove of a man whose work has probably inspired many of them and has helped to develop the faith of other people they know?
If you're really not into this line of thinking then you might need to try a different type of church. Perhaps the Methodists or the URC, or some sort of tolerant CofE congregation. Unfortunately, these well-established congregations probably won't be as chummy as your current church, the members will be older, and they might be less keen on small group dinners. But, putting it frankly, they'll be more liberal on these particular issues. Either that, or they'll be the polite sort of Christians who simply keep their mouths shut on these controversial issues.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Run like the wind boy, run like the wind.
Prudent aquatic mammals encountering stuff like this should swim like a tsunami, Otter, swim like a tsunami.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
My immediate reaction was - take a crash course in assertion training, then, strongly confident, confront their ignorance! However, more practical thoughts are - don't go back there, especially as they seem to admire the Alpha course (quick shudder from me!), and as I think I have just read in one of the other posts, a note to the leaders of this organisation would be appropriate.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
|
Posted
I'm a not straight Christian, I say this because I am still figuring myself out but I know its not straight. Attitudes like the one you describe seem a fairly common unreflective response in new very enthusiastic Christians. I think for them the root of parroting this 'prayer to make you straight' lark isn't homophobia per se but rather some clumsy attempt to demonstrate an outreach. More like a 'we like you and want to give you what we have'
It is clumsy though and it does start from a wrong place. For me your response depends on a few things. Firstly, how comfortable you are in your own skin and with your own identity because you might need to defend it a little. Secondly as others have said talk to a leader in confidence, its a little terrifying but its better than hiding and will help you decide if you can stay with that church.
I wish you all luck.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Otter--
(Is it ok to call you that??)
Sorry you've run into that situation. Since you said, "I'm not (yet) a confessing Christian", this may be extra tricky.
:votive"
Are you feeling stable enough, spiritually and emotionally, to try a different church? If so, it might be worth trying a service or two somewhere else.
If you need to stay for a while, you might focus on whatever the church offers that helps you, that you feel ok about, that helps you stabilize. That doesn't mean that you need to stay long-term. This might be like pulling in at a truck stop--you can rest, get some things you need--and, when you're ready, move on.
Does the preaching and teaching focus on repairing LGBT folks? Or is that an undercurrent? Or is it just a few people who think that way?
If you feel you need to speak up to individuals about this, you might ask if it's been their experience that the Holy Spirit fixes everything, and does it right away? If you're *really* daring and the person is left-handed, you might mention that people used to think that was unholy, and are they going to ask the Holy Spirit to make them right-handed?
IMHO, since you're clear in your mind that their idea about LGBT folks in wrong and you're not apt to let them convince you against your conscience, you might be better off not picking this battle. Nurture your own faith, for now.
Good luck!
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
On a complete tangent, how can one be 'too small to hold services'? Whatever happened to 'wherever two or three are gathered in My name'?
As to the casual homophobia - very worrying. But I don't think you can blame this on Fr Gumbel and the Alpha course - even if neither is quite my cup of tea, they do not include anything like this, and certainly do not endorse so-called 'ex-gay' ministries...
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Addendum:
Otter, I see that Macrina interpreted your OP as you having issues because you're not straight. I interpreted it as just the opposite. If you're not straight, then yes, this church might be a really bad place for you.
If you feel you need to be there, then (as others said), quietly ask leaders what they think. If there's someone that seems especially grounded *and* compassionate, you might start with them. Hopefully, you'd get a more thoughtful and less volatile response.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Let's see a church that preaches hate? Now that is an oxymoron. This is not a Christian church in my book. I agree, run like the wind.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
On a complete tangent, how can one be 'too small to hold services'? Whatever happened to 'wherever two or three are gathered in My name'?
As to the casual homophobia - very worrying. But I don't think you can blame this on Fr Gumbel and the Alpha course - even if neither is quite my cup of tea, they do not include anything like this, and certainly do not endorse so-called 'ex-gay' ministries...
The course itself doesn't, but some of the supporting materials, and Gumbel himself, have said some deeply dodgy things about gay people.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
|
Posted
Tell them that you'll pray for them to receive enlightenment and compassion...
eta: ...and that you believe the Holy Spirit can cure them of their homophobia.
[ 06. July 2013, 07:13: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
This may get into DH territory, but it is really fair to equate a belief that homosexual activity is a sin with homophobia?
Suppose he had said of people who are anxious (arguably also a sin - since Jesus' command is: Be anxious for nothing . .) would you equate the statement "The Holy Spirit can free you from fear" with neuroticophobia?
I'd be more put of by the superficiality of instant cures by people standing over who and wobbling a bit and maybe huffing and puffing.
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
[A] comment that 'the Holy Spirit can make you straight.'
At the moment, I feel like I'm in a flat spin and any words would be welcome.
I've stopped taking these points of view too seriously so if I knew that I wasn't going to be spending much time with these people in future, my mischievous sense of humour would make me say something along the lines of 'well, I don't think my boyfriend would like it if that happened', quite innocently, and see where the conversation lead after that.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
This may get into DH territory, but it is really fair to equate a belief that homosexual activity is a sin with homophobia?
No it isn't fair, to ascribe a secular standing to theological belief is to arbitrarily allow non-Christians to interfere in what is and is not Christian belief when in truth those decisions should be settled by the Church in discussion, not imposed by those who have no understanding or stake in the church.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Go somewhere else. There are enough gay-friendly churches in London.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Churches only work if people actually go to them. So stay away and that will be one less person to give them support in their extremist ideas.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
DTO. I'm sorry again. Are you all alone in this? They are deluded. Strongly. It's normal. Dominant. Lonely are the brave mate. Don't they know Exodus International has given up the ghost? Go to Steve Chalke. Evangelicalism is a zombie.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
|
Posted
Thanks for all the responses.
Yes, I'm straight, but institutional homophobia is one of the things that I most dislike about some parts of the Christian experience as it just seems so stridently and utterly at odds with what I feel in my heart.
--------------------
Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
www.rjpmedia.net
Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cedd007
Shipmate
# 16180
|
Posted
Hi DouglasTheOtter. I'm impressed with your website, having myself dabbled in advertising for 3½ years. You have two core principles, and you have a number of sub-principles for anyone interested. And you don't like jargon. (Sorry – bad habit – beginning a sentence with 'And' was essential to writing advertising copy in the 1970's!)
I think a lot of Christians, perhaps including your friends, could learn something from your careful presentation of your own principles. Should condemning homosexuality be so high on their list?
Posts: 58 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
Thanks for all the responses.
Yes, I'm straight, but institutional homophobia is one of the things that I most dislike about some parts of the Christian experience as it just seems so stridently and utterly at odds with what I feel in my heart.
But it's not difficult to find places and people who are not homophobic. For a long time, I used to go to a central London church, whose rector was gay, and had a boy-friend. I don't think the bishop of London was too keen, but his congregation loved him, and vice versa.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
If this church is a plant then those who lead it, and their immediate coterie, will be thoroughly on-message with the parent church. Identify that church and its doctrinal basis and you will see where the church you have joined is and where it is going.
If you do walk away and they ask you why, then tell them. Same goes for any church that is so immature as to fasten to one issue for its unity.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
|
Posted
I tend to be someone who speaks out if a group is saying something I disagree with, particularly if it is a view that is marginalising or disparaging people. I will state my views, question theirs, etc. I do this because it feels wrong if I don't. But I've learnt that there are plenty of situations where it's unlikely to be effective.
I find if the whole group has a certain view and my view is pretty much the opposite, they will simply see me as wrong and not even consider my views. They will try to correct me, or they will dismiss me as misguided/evil/stupid/other.
This will also be the case if they don't know me very well (they therefore feel no affection/loyalty to me) or if I'm not really someone they feel is one of them - not part of the in-crowd.
I find that things that make people listen to you and seriously consider your point of view are as follows:
- if they know you and like you and respect you
- if you present your view in such a way that you seem to be agreeing with them, and then you add something slightly different, but in such a way as that it tallies with all they claim to believe anyway. So they don't actually feel they've changed their view, but that you have somehow just expanded on what they already believe.
- if you chat to individuals in the group, privately, to see what they think, and find a few people with the same views as yours
As a newcomer, the first on the list won't apply. Also, because views on homosexuality are binary, it would be quite hard to express your views in the way I described in the second bullet point - that works more for subtler things. However, what you could do, if you want to stay at the church and want to challenge their attitudes, is to talk to individuals and see where they stand on issues and why. People are more likely to be honest if they are talking one-to-one, rather than pressured by what the group expects them to believe.
From what I observe of people who change their views on homosexuality, it often seems to be from having a gay family member, or having friends who are gay. This seems to take away the whole fear of the unknown aspect.
It might help if you are able to understand why these people have these views on homosexuality - try to see their perspective, and empathise with how they have developed these views, even though you don't agree with them. It is easier to influence people if you can find common ground. If you can somehow relate their attitudes to any attitudes you've had in your life, it might be easier to understand and therefore to address. We all develop different prejudices and irrational fears in our lives, based on associations and attitudes we are exposed to. If there is anything you can relate it to, then you'll be less likely to have a 'them and us' attitude yourself to these people (not that you necessarily do, but if you do).
For myself, I grew up being taught that homosexuality was a terrible taboo thing, a great evil, something quite fearful and wrong - to the extent that in my mind gay people were almost a different species, and almost imaginary beings, like dragons or monsters, as I'd never actually met one. It wasn't a conscious prejudice - not even something I thought consciously about, although I'd have simply said that homosexuality was wrong if asked, because that's what I was taught. Then when I was 18, I had a Saturday job in a deli, in a quiet shop where I worked with one other person, whom I got on well with. One day she told me she was gay - and my internal response was an astonished 'But she's a regular person'.
Now I was a rational 18 year old who would, if asked, of course have known that gay people were just regular people. But I'd never met a gay person, so it was all very hypothetical, and the only associations I had with homosexuality were those I'd grown up with - those of taboo, fear, horror, etc. So realistically, my response was quite a natural one. The influence that taboos can have on our psyche are incredibly irrational and bizarre. And pervasive. I didn't immediately decide that hey, it's okay for people to be gay. It took quite a few years for me to stop thinking it was definitely a sin.
So realistically, if people have been brought up in this kind of church environment, even if you present them with the most convincing argument in the world, even if they think you're the best, most credible person ever, they're very unlikely to change their views just like that. It's likely to take years. What you say may influence them, but it will be one of many influences, that take place over years.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
|
Posted
I'm getting some great advice here, and I'm hugely grateful for the support I'm receiving here from persons unknown and unseen. It really is genuinely humbling.
The way forward seems to be to talk to the guy who leads the group and see what he thinks, maybe some time next week, and take things from there. At the moment, I'm recovering from quite a bad breakdown and, although I'm working, events last night seem genuinely troubling. It's hard to know whether that's the depression talking or reality, so I'm going to stay away tomorrow and give myself time.
--------------------
Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
www.rjpmedia.net
Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
vw man
Shipmate
# 13951
|
Posted
I used to be a big fan of Alpha but now I am not as keen It has its good poionts but also a few sticky ones,the most important thjing is to know Jesus as Lord once that happens it is up to God to deal with any bad attitudes of other people or even our selfs I used to be anti gay but I have met some brillant gay Christians I dont know if I am right or wrong but God will sort me out God bless
Posts: 115 | From: Derbyshire | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
My problem is that we went out for dinner tonight and everyone there suddenly seems to have turned into an acolyte of the Alpha Course, HTB and Nicky bloody Gumbel. This involves them coming out with what is, to me, the most appallingly homophobic claptrap which reached its nadir with a comment that 'the Holy Spirit can make you straight.'
However you choose to respond, bear in mind that such wilful ignorance and offensiveness absolves you from any requirement to be even a little bit polite.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
I'm recovering from quite a bad breakdown and, although I'm working, events last night seem genuinely troubling. It's hard to know whether that's the depression talking or reality, so I'm going to stay away tomorrow and give myself time.
Good idea. Try not to invest too much importance in this group so that they don't drag you back down.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
My problem is that we went out for dinner tonight and everyone there suddenly seems to have turned into an acolyte of the Alpha Course, HTB and Nicky bloody Gumbel. This involves them coming out with what is, to me, the most appallingly homophobic claptrap which reached its nadir with a comment that 'the Holy Spirit can make you straight.'
However you choose to respond, bear in mind that such wilful ignorance and offensiveness absolves you from any requirement to be even a little bit polite.
Do you think so? I always try to stick to Winston Churchill's thoughts following the United Kingdom's declaration of war on Japan in 1941:
quote:
[W]hen you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
I would say first protect yourself. If something causes you added anxiety in your life then do not engage.
Second I have found that you never change someone's mind by putting them down or saying that they are wrong. I simple state what I believe using only "I" statements such as, " It is my belief, or my experience has taught me, or I used to believe but I have come to realize." All of these kinds of statements tend to make others stop and listen to what you are saying without feeling put down, or threatened.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Frankly I would not even try to talk to the leader of the program. Their mind is made up, otherwise they would not be using the program.
Time to shake off the dust on your feet.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
the most appallingly homophobic claptrap which reached its nadir with a comment that 'the Holy Spirit can make you straight.'
For a start, you could stop using the Orwellian and manipulative neologism “homophobia”, the purpose of which is to suggest that all those who disapprove of homosexual activity must hate and fear gays.
This is simply untrue.
Yes, you should probably avoid any church which displays an obsession with homosexuality, because the Bible doesn’t, and yes, the idea that same-sex attraction can be “cured” is almost certainly chimerical.
On the other hand, historically all orthodox Christian traditions (not just evangelicalism) have always taught that homosexual behaviour - and heterosexual behaviour outside of marriage - is wrong, because there is a prima facie case that that is what the Bible teaches.
If you study relevant material on the subject, and decide that this two thousand year-old tradition is mistaken, then go and find a church which thinks likewise.
However if you are considering the claims of Christianity, just be careful that you keep an open mind, and try not to fall into the trap of an a priori insistence that it must conform to the shibboleths which you have inherited from the zeitgeist.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Fineline ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
OK, I have to start this post with a disclaimer, and that it that I hold the the view that all sexual relations outside of marriage are sinful, However, you will notice that
(a) I have not said that homosexual orientation is a sin. It is not.
(b) I am not claiming that any of the many ways one can enjoy oneself sexually outside of the marriage is the sin against the Holy Ghost - because it ain't. Those conservatives/traditionalists who single out homosexuality as being somehow worst than the rest make me very angry indeed.
The whole discussion really belongs in the confessional, and needs to stay there for the most part. The fact that one is theologically and morally conservative should not prevent one from thinking pastorally when dealing with those who find "the conventions" impossible.
The thing that appals me is the fact that some, not all, Evangelicals and, for that matter, some Liberals flog this issue to death. However, I think it is a bit crass on the part of the management to lay a lot of emphasis on this when there are better things to talk about - like the atonement, justification, and sancification, and how we need to make God's love real in our every day thinking and doing.
Here endeth the rant.
BTW, this incident may be a hint to find a church which, if not gay-friendly, at least has the gumption to deal with it pastorally, not with the waggy finger.
PD
[ 07. July 2013, 04:56: Message edited by: PD ]
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
|
Posted
Kaplan, if the term homophobic doesn't suit (and I agree that there are problems with it from an etymological pov), maybe you should coin a term such as "orientationist" to be analogical to racist". In the meantime, the rest of the world will continue in the common useage. Etymology is not meaning, as they say.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
I'm getting some great advice here, and I'm hugely grateful for the support I'm receiving here from persons unknown and unseen. It really is genuinely humbling.
The way forward seems to be to talk to the guy who leads the group and see what he thinks, maybe some time next week, and take things from there. At the moment, I'm recovering from quite a bad breakdown and, although I'm working, events last night seem genuinely troubling. It's hard to know whether that's the depression talking or reality, so I'm going to stay away tomorrow and give myself time.
I just noticed what you said about your own personal state - seriously, man, avoid a group like this, which disturbs you. Just look after yourself.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
the rest of the world will continue in the common useage.
Here in Australia it is very common to hear refugees described as "illegal immigrants" or "queue-jumpers".
I refuse to use either term, and object when others do.
You are quite right in claiming that it is almost certainly a waste of time to oppose an entrenched usage, but as Orwell demonstrated, the debauchment of language is far more than merely an issue of pedantry.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
For a start, you could stop using the Orwellian and manipulative neologism “homophobia”, the purpose of which is to suggest that all those who disapprove of homosexual activity must hate and fear gays.
I don't think the OP is necessarily doing that. DTO could have been clearer about precisely what words and conduct he takes to be manifestations of homophobia, but he does appear to be objecting to more than a dispassionate view of sexual ethics.
'Homophobic', like 'racist', covers a a wide variety of faults. But with 'racist' we are mostly comfortable with that. I can, for example, describe a vulgar witticism as “a racist joke” without anyone thinking that I'm necessarily accusing the joke teller of the sin of hatred. With 'homophobia', though, most supporters of anti-gay discrimination don't seem capable of recognising that there are degrees of homophobia analogous to the degrees of racism. Opposing marriage equality, for example, is blatantly homophobic, but it is psychologically possible to be opposed to equal rights for gays without being conscious of feeling any hatred towards gays, so by calling it homophobic, I'm not accusing the homophobes of malice, but of injustice.
'Homophobe' can mean 'someone who unfairly discriminates against gay people', just as 'racist' can mean 'someone who unfairly discriminates against black people'. Both words can also mean 'someone who hates...', but they don't have to, not all the time. DTO appears to me to be accusing this church of a failure of compassion and understanding amounting to homophobic, and not necessarily of actual hatred, and he's using the word in a quite ordinary and unexceptional way which, outside certain enclaves of anti-gay sentiment, will usually be perfectly well understood.
quote:
the idea that same-sex attraction can be “cured” is almost certainly chimerical.
But it isn't just factually wrong. You can't hold the idea that homosexual orientation is generally curable unless you've made a determined effort not to listen to, understand or empathise with gay people. To do it is to treat other people's experiences, feelings and loves as inconvenient but trivial data that may safely be ignored if one's preconceptions so require.
It is fair to describe that attitude as 'homophobia' – homophobia at the 'failure of compassion' level, of course, rather than the 'burning hatred' level, but still homophobia.
--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Peddling the delusion that God 'heals' homosexuality is homophobic.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
'failure of compassion'
Accusations of “failure of compassion” are problematic in at least three ways.
First, they amount to a tactic of emotional blackmail.
Secondly, they disrespectfully treat a genuinely held belief as a mere quirk of temperament.
Thirdly, their application in this context is broader than to just homosexual behaviour.
It is possible as a Christian to believe that homosexual activity, as well as heterosexual activity outside of marriage, is forbidden by God, and at the same time sympathise with those who experience same-sex attraction, or who are heterosexual but unmarried, or in (for whatever reasons) sexless marriages.
My attitude toward practising gays is the same as my attitude toward those of other faiths – I happen to think that they are wrong, but I don’t hate or fear them, and I try to treat them with respect.
In India I knew a number of very fine Hindus with whom I got on very well, and would have been furious had someone labeled me “Hinduphobic” just because I believed their religion to be mistaken.
In the same way, I absolutely refuse to wear the term “homophobic”.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
This thread is a DH. Feel free to continue down there.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I don't think that someone who believes that all extra-marital sexual contact ('homosexual activity' makes me think of some kind of gay leisure centre) is sinful is homophobic. Believing that non-heterosexual sexual contact is sinful but the other kinds aren't is homophobic imo. That seems to be the attitude the church in the OP displays. Alarm bells are also ringing since there seems to be no acknowledgement of celibate gay Christians - unfortunately, a lot of conservative evangelicals I've encountered do not believe it is possible for gay people to be celibate. Now that IS homophobic.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
'Homophobic', like 'racist', covers a a wide variety of faults. But with 'racist' we are mostly comfortable with that. I can, for example, describe a vulgar witticism as “a racist joke” without anyone thinking that I'm necessarily accusing the joke teller of the sin of hatred.
I think we cheapen the notion of racism by using the term in this careless way.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
|
Posted
People aren't racist or homophobic. They do, however, have racist or homophobic attitudes, and telling a racist joke and expecting people to laugh might be indicative of holding them. Either that, or they're just stupid. Either way, not a desirable state of affairs.
--------------------
Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
www.rjpmedia.net
Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
My own objection to the term "homophobe" is that it dignifies hatred by making it sound like an illness. It isn't. Personally I prefer the term "vicious gay-hating bastard".
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
My attitude toward practising gays is the same as my attitude toward those of other faiths – I happen to think that they are wrong, but I don’t hate or fear them, and I try to treat them with respect.
And if you're sincere in that (and I've no reason to think otherwise), and would therefore support the legal right to live freely as a gay or Hindu (or gay Hindu) with the same freedoms as everyone else, I wouldn't call you a homophobe. Or a vicious gay-hating bastard.
I get the impression that this is not the attitude which the OP is complaining about, however, though I do think he could have been clearer about what he objects to.
--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't think that someone who believes that all extra-marital sexual contact ('homosexual activity' makes me think of some kind of gay leisure centre) is sinful is homophobic. Believing that non-heterosexual sexual contact is sinful but the other kinds aren't is homophobic imo. That seems to be the attitude the church in the OP displays. Alarm bells are also ringing since there seems to be no acknowledgement of celibate gay Christians - unfortunately, a lot of conservative evangelicals I've encountered do not believe it is possible for gay people to be celibate. Now that IS homophobic.
I agree with you here. The idea that gay people (or anyone else) can't be celibate is shocking to me.
My problem with what these people said isn't that they have a theological problem with homosexual sex. I find it theologically challenging too. But I can't accept the notion that the Holy Spirit removes anything from our lives that we might find difficult to deal with. We're told that Paul himself had a problem, a thorn in his side, that the Holy Spirit didn't remove, despite his closeness to God, his spiritual dynamism, and his prayers. (Some people suggest that the problem might have been homosexual urges, but I don't know where that idea comes from). Paul's often criticised by liberal Christians for his teachings, but his experience surely shows that it's possible to be an evangelical yet still not be relieved of a distressing situation in one's life.
However, I think Douglas the Otter might have problems arguing about this with these people, simply because he's not yet a Christian. He may not yet be convinced that the Holy Spirit even exists, much less that the Spirit can change anyone's life.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
|
Posted
I'm not interested whether they find my arguments persuasive or not, as I'm sure of the ground on which I stand.
--------------------
Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
www.rjpmedia.net
Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
