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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Carpentry
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Joseph was a carpenter and Jesus is sometimes referred to as the son of a carpenter, which suggests that he received some training in the art of carpentry.
Okay, nothing surprising there. Except this: in all of Jesus' teachings, all his parables, all his analogies, does he ever compare anything to the work a carpenter does? He talks a lot about tending sheep, about fishing, about raising grapes, about sowing fields. His "physician heal thyself" line at least references the medical arts. But I cannot think of any occasion when he makes a comparison to anything a carpenter would do.
Is that just my notoriously faulty memory, or does he, in fact, never reference his earthly father's trade to explain things to his followers?
As a side tangent (yeah, yeah, it's my own OP, I can do a tangent if I want to!), I suppose a carpenter might have been called in to make the cross. It isn't the hardest thing in the world to build, but a professional Roman execution would want it done right.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
On the tangent--I suspect the crosses (and nails!) were all recycled time and again (Ewwwwwwww). One doesn't just throw away good strong shaped wood after a single use in such countries. So no carpenter was likely involved (at the time, anyway) with Jesus' crucifixion.
Maybe the reason for no carpentry references is that carpentry was a fairly specialized trade, and its truisms and knacks would be known to very few in the crowds he preached to. Unlike shepherding, tree and vine tending, fishing, and so forth.
Though we do get the story of the house built on sand, and carpenters would have been involved in house building. So maybe...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
There would have been carpenters among the Roman legionaires who could have done the work themselves.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Maybe the reason for no carpentry references is that carpentry was a fairly specialized trade, and its truisms and knacks would be known to very few in the crowds he preached to. Unlike shepherding, tree and vine tending, fishing, and so forth.
Really, he was merchant class and his audience was working class.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Are there any traditions or apocryphal stories about Jesus doing carpentry, or any other kind of (possibly) paying work?
I wonder...since we don't know what happened to Joseph, but it's generally assumed he died, AFAIK... maybe anything associated with Joseph was simply too painful to mention? If Jesus was fully human, then he probably suffered pain, and loss, and grief, as most people do, however he may have coped with it.
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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think it's interesting that when they are mocking him in Nazareth they say "Isn't that the carpenter's son?" and not "Isn't that the carpenter?".
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
[QBIf Jesus was fully human, then he probably suffered pain, and loss, and grief, as most people do, however he may have coped with it. [/QB]
He undoubtedly did - think of his weeping at the tomb of Lazarus - John 11, 35. Although that weeping may well have been for the distress Mary was experiencing, it still shows that He, in His humanity, experienced human emotions.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
So he may simply have been carrying long-term pain about whatever happened to Joseph, and just didn't talk publicly about it.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Are there any traditions or apocryphal stories about Jesus doing carpentry, or any other kind of (possibly) paying work?
Sort of. The pseudepigraphical Infancy Gospel of Thomas, as well as presenting a precocious, and, in the early part of the text, rather malevolent, Jesus, also includes Jesus giving Joseph a carpentry lesson accompanied by a minor miracle (ch 13).
One of the most interesting things about this work is the story of Jesus making the twelve clay birds in chapters 2 and 3, which he then brings to life. Muhammad must have heard this story at some point, because he recycles it in the Qur'an, in Surah 5 v110, presenting it as gospel fact alongside other canonical examples of miracles.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
David--
Ooo, thx for the info! Will check it out, when I get a chance.
I knew about the clay birds story. I've always liked that. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Not so much the one where little Jesus zaps and kills a child he was angry with. Though that would make sense if he had supernatural abilities, with a child's mind and heart. (Never heard if he brought the child back to life.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Though we do get the story of the house built on sand, and carpenters would have been involved in house building. So maybe...
Oh, good catch. I think it is fair to assume that a carpenter would know about having proper support for a structure, so, yes, the "house built on sand" does reflect Jesus' carpentry background. I can readily imagine Joseph explaining the need for a proper foundation to a young Jesus.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
I believe the word translated as carpenter , tekton, means someone who works with their hands, not as specific as carpenter. It could have been stonemasonry or other kinds of construction work.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I believe the word translated as carpenter , tekton, means someone who works with their hands, not as specific as carpenter. It could have been stonemasonry or other kinds of construction work.
Also my understanding; though probably not 'stonemasonry' which even then was decidedly specialist. I think our nearest equivalent would be something like 'jobbing builder'.
On one understanding of the Christmas events Joseph was such a builder living in Bethlehem but working in Galilee because that's where profitable work was, particularly in the city of Sepphoris, unfortunately not long after destroyed in a rebellion. When he was required to register for tax, he 'went home' to Bethlehem 'his own city'. At the time of Jesus' birth the 'guestchamber' - the normal meaning of the word translated as 'inn' - was not available so the birth took place in the stable of Joseph's equivalent of the modern Transit van!
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
So here's a little more about the translation of tekton.
quote:
In modern scholarship, the word has sometimes been re-interpreted from the traditional meaning of carpenter and has sometimes been translated as craftsman, as the meaning of builder is implied, but can be applied to both wood-work and stone masonry.
Although as the article goes on, it's more nuanced that that, and it also points out that there is a separate Greek word for stonemason.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I have heard of a tradition that in his carpentering days Jesus made oxen-yokes. They were reported to have lasted an usually long time.
Moo
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
That would be because his yoke is easy, and his burden light.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Must have used balsa-wood rather than oak, then.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Reconsiders posting an egg-yolk joke...
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
That would be because his yoke is easy, and his burden light.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think it's interesting that when they are mocking him in Nazareth they say "Isn't that the carpenter's son?" and not "Isn't that the carpenter?".
Indeed!
Would it be natural to expect all of Joseph's children to follow him into the carpentry business? I'd assume that unless demand for carpentry increased, some of them would have to look elsewhere.
If only one or two sons followed him into carpentry, I'd guess that would be the eldest - which would be Jesus if you don't believe in the Perpetual Virginity, and one of Joseph's children from his previous marriage if you do.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Personally I think that the question, "Isn't he the carpenter's son?" is all about establishing his family's credentials in a society which valued them. Individual merit wasn't enough.
So it's much like a member of the British aristocracy, on hearing that his son wishes to marry Miss X., says, "But her parents are in trade" - even though they may be perfectly respectable and extremely wealthy!
So ITSM that they are saying, "Who is this man? He doesn't come from a priestly clan, he is descended from a line of rabbis, so why should we listen to him?"
It's surely because of this desire to establish Jesus' legitimacy that we have the long genealogies in Matthew and Luke.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm trying to remember who re-told the story of the paralised man and his friends, which included the identification of "carpenter" as being a general handiman dealing mostly with wood - a combination of cabinet maker, joiner, builder, whatever job needed doing. Anyway, the retelling of the story goes something like this.
The friends of a paralised man hear Jesus is in town, and they pick up his mat and carry him to the house where Jesus is, so that he may be healed. But, the crowds are so large they can't get near to the house along the streets and so decide to go onto the roof of the nearest house and carry their friend from roof top to roof top so they can get him to Jesus. Finally they get to the house where Jesus is, expecting to find a trap door or other access to the roof from inside the house, only there isn't one. What are they to do now?
One of the friends looks up and says "If we cut a hole in the roof, we can lower him down right in front of Jesus". The other friends look at him with shock and say "you can't just cut a hole in the roof of someone's house". Normal, civilised people don't just go round causing significant damage to the home of someone else. "But," says the first friend, "he's a carpenter. It won't take him much time to fix it again".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I believe the word translated as carpenter , tekton, means someone who works with their hands, not as specific as carpenter. It could have been stonemasonry or other kinds of construction work.
This is so very Monty Python. "Not just cheesemakers, but all manufacturers of dairy products."
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
One of the friends looks up and says "If we cut a hole in the roof, we can lower him down right in front of Jesus". The other friends look at him with shock and say "you can't just cut a hole in the roof of someone's house". Normal, civilised people don't just go round causing significant damage to the home of someone else. "But," says the first friend, "he's a carpenter. It won't take him much time to fix it again".
It surely wasn't a roof like the roof above your head at this moment -- wooden or asphalt shingle, tar paper, tin. It was probably wooden rafters laid over mud-brick or possibly stone house walls. Cross beams are laid over this, and then something lighter -- straw or palm leaves. Remember, it doesn't snow much in the Middle East. It would be relatively easy to scrabble this thatch-ish layer aside, shove the cross beams over a bit, and make a gap. And fixing it would be not much more complex, although I am certain the householders had a couple sharp things to say.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
If I recall correctly, it was a thatch-type roof in Matthew and a tile roof in Luke. At any rate, I think Alan's story is meant as an anecdote, not exigesis.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
So ITSM that they are saying, "Who is this man? He doesn't come from a priestly clan, he is descended from a line of rabbis, so why should we listen to him?"
That is the sense I get from it, too. Which is what makes the link Mamacita gave to the many shades of meaning of tekton so interesting. Specifically, the following bit:
quote:
...in 1983 Geza Vermes (1983) suggested that given that the use of the term in the Talmud "carpenter" can signify a very learned man, the New Testament description of Joseph as a carpenter could indicate that he was considered wise and literate in the Torah. This theory was later popularized by A. N. Wilson to suggest that Jesus had some sort of elevated status.
If the word truly were able to be interpreted that way, then the whole "son of a carpenter" comment gets turned on its head! "This is the son of a man who is wise and literate in the Torah" just doesn't have the same smackdown quality to it as "he's the son of a carpenter"!!
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
If I recall correctly, it was a thatch-type roof in Matthew and a tile roof in Luke. At any rate, I think Alan's story is meant as an anecdote, not exigesis.
I've seen (but can't vouch for, though it seems reasonable) that it was more or less both. I mean, some cross beams and smaller stuff (branches? thatchy stuff?) topped off with a layer of what we'd call adobe where I grew up. The idea being to produce a fairly flat roof where the family could walk around, store stuff, do chores, etc. And that would be rain-proof.
So the first few inches would involve digging and possibly setting aside tiles or hard fired material. Under that there'd probably be some messing about with wood and tree branch stuff--I'm wondering how palm branches might do for a layer, and I suspect pretty well.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I recall a previous thread - 3 or 4 years ago - involving similar discussion. Moo (from memory) said that the word used meant more than we now understand by carpenter to be an architect. I have very limited Greek and no Hebrew, but perhaps one who is qualified can do so. The same discussion included reference to the long-lasting ox-yokes, and if that be so, I'd suggest that it is perhaps a foretelling of Packard cars.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Flubb
Shipmate
# 918
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
On the tangent--I suspect the crosses (and nails!) were all recycled time and again (Ewwwwwwww)
Nails from crucifixions were used as healing charms:
quote:
It is permitted to go out with eggs of grasshoppers or with the tooth of a fox or a nail from the gallows where a man was hanged, as medical remedies.
Mishnah Sabbath 6.10
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
While the nails remained sharp enough to hammer in without too much effort, why waste good spear or sword material on new ones? The same for the cross, particularly in eg Palestine or Egypt, where suitable timber would have been in short supply and needed for building materials.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
So ITSM that they are saying, "Who is this man? He doesn't come from a priestly clan, he is descended from a line of rabbis, so why should we listen to him?"
That is the sense I get from it, too. Which is what makes the link Mamacita gave to the many shades of meaning of tekton so interesting. Specifically, the following bit:
quote:
...in 1983 Geza Vermes (1983) suggested that given that the use of the term in the Talmud "carpenter" can signify a very learned man, the New Testament description of Joseph as a carpenter could indicate that he was considered wise and literate in the Torah. This theory was later popularized by A. N. Wilson to suggest that Jesus had some sort of elevated status.
If the word truly were able to be interpreted that way, then the whole "son of a carpenter" comment gets turned on its head! "This is the son of a man who is wise and literate in the Torah" just doesn't have the same smackdown quality to it as "he's the son of a carpenter"!!
Tradition has it that Mary was of Levite family. Elizabeth at least married into a Priestly family. The family as a whole is portrayed as poor but devout. Poverty does not seem to have stopped people from being respected as Rabbis. Certainly, Jesus' friends had contact with the High Priest's family.
I have always taken that passage as saying that they knew who Jesus was. The same way as in a small community you would have Jack the baker's son or Cathy, the teacher's daughter. It says nothing of your piety but distinguishes you from Jack the butcher's son or Cathy the barber's daughter.
Jengie
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
There seems to be a lot of debate in Jesus-scholarship about the specific position in Galilean society at the time that a tekton occupied. I've seen interpretations ranging from people assuming that Joseph's family must have been relatively well-off as he was a craftsman with a skilled trade that would have been in demand, to the assumption that they were the poorest of the poor, virtually homeless itinerant labourers who would travel wherever they could get a temporary construction job for a few days.
The latter interpretation I seem to remember from John Dominic Crossan's Jesus books, and was tied to the assumption that Jesus, coming from such a background, must certainly have been illiterate. Although I think also later (maybe in the same book or another), presented with the idea of James the brother of Jesus as a literate man who led the Jerusalem church and wrote the epistle of James, Crossan had a suggestion as to how it was completely plausible that this dirt-poor, illiterate family managed to get James a rabbinical education (but not Jesus, of course). Fond as I am in many ways of Crossan, I find this sort of "interpret the data to suit the story you want to tell" exegesis typical of him as well as lots of Jesus Seminar type scholars -- but I suppose it is true of a lot of more conservative Jesus-scholars as well.
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
J.P.Meier comments “Jesus plied a trade that involved...no little sweat and muscle power. The airy weakling often presented to us in pious paintings and Hollywood movies would hardly have survived the rigours of being Nazareth's tekton from his youth to his early thirties.”
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I believe the word translated as carpenter , tekton, means someone who works with their hands, not as specific as carpenter. It could have been stonemasonry or other kinds of construction work.
This is so very Monty Python. "Not just cheesemakers, but all manufacturers of dairy products."
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I have always taken that passage as saying that they knew who Jesus was. The same way as in a small community you would have Jack the baker's son or Cathy, the teacher's daughter. It says nothing of your piety but distinguishes you from Jack the butcher's son or Cathy the barber's daughter.
Jengie
That's how I hear it as well. Sort of like, "wait, isn't that little Jonny from down the block" type of thing.
re: why Jesus doesn't seem to show much interest/reference in carpentry-- we don't know at what age Joseph died. If he died when Jesus was very young perhaps the carpentry influence wasn't as great as we often see it portrayed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Jesus was at least 12 at the time of Joseph's death - see Luke 2.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Jesus is also a great speaker (among lots of other things!) and one of the first things you learn is not to bore your audience by riding a particular hobbyhorse too often, especially one that is rather specialist. No matter how fond he was or is of carpentry, I can't see him bringing it up a great deal.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Yes - first rule of public speaking being to know your audience. As was said upthread, going out into the countryside, he was smart to use examples from their everyday lives, not his.
Add to that the possibility that, by age 30, he could have been ready to leave the carpentry biz behind him.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I can't say mch about Jesus's carpentry skills or experience, but this thread does make me think of one of my favorite prayers from the Iona Community*:
O Christ, the Master Carpenter,
who at the last, through wood and nails,
purchased our whole salvation,
wield well your tools
in the workshop of your world,
so that we who come rough-hewn to your bench
may here be fashioned
to a truer beauty of your hand.
We ask it for your own name’s sake. Amen
* The original version was probably written by Arthur Gray Butler (1831–1909), and was, I've read, used at one point in the Scouting movement. It was reworked over time into this form by the Iona Community.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
The only teaching analogy drawn from carpentry I can think of is Matthew 7:3 - "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?". A carpenter would have known about getting sawdust in his eye.
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I can think of others
- easy yoke - a carpenter makes yokes, what is meant by 'easy' is open to debate
- if the wider one of construction worker then the people building houses on rock and sand and the person building a tower are likely to be portrayals of customers.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
There's a moving reference to wood in the closing hours of Jesus' earthly life, as he walks to his death, with Simon of Cyrene carrying the cross behind him. He says, in Luke 23 verses 28 to 31, to the wailing women who have lined the streets for his final journey:
"Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For the days are surely coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.' For if they do this when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
A carpenter would have known about getting sawdust in his eye.
Assuming he ever used a saw. Though saws have been around since pre-history, they were never very common until modern times. They only come in handy when you need very neatly finished woodwork. For most applications where a rougher finish is adequate (which would include almost all construction and domestic applications for all but the richest members of society) a saw is not the appropriate tool. Making planks, for example, by splitting wood is a) much faster and b) makes stronger planks (the split follows the lines of weakness in the timber, a saw cuts across them so they stay in the plank).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Not so much the one where little Jesus zaps and kills a child he was angry with. Though that would make sense if he had supernatural abilities, with a child's mind and heart. (Never heard if he brought the child back to life.)
Iirc the Blessed Virgin Mary gives him a good talking to until he brings the child back.
"Now, Jesus, what do we know about not smiting people dead?"
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though saws have been around since pre-history, they were never very common until modern times. They only come in handy when you need very neatly finished woodwork. For most applications where a rougher finish is adequate (which would include almost all construction and domestic applications for all but the richest members of society) a saw is not the appropriate tool. Making planks, for example, by splitting wood is a) much faster and b) makes stronger planks (the split follows the lines of weakness in the timber, a saw cuts across them so they stay in the plank).
Once again, I stand in awe of the things I learn in Keryg.
ETA: And I imagine getting a speck from plank-splitting in one's eye would be really unpleasant.
[ 24. February 2017, 14:38: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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