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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: God called Father
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
I hope this is the right board for this.
Why does Jesus call God, Father? To do so from this distance of time, appears limiting. I don’t want to say inaccurate as God is Father, but also Mother, and Other and many other terms that can be used I guess to convey some aspect of that which cannot be fully described.
Do we have to have a Father because we have a Son?
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Hi. If you'd like to skim some of our previous discussions on this topic:
--Go to the top of this page. Right under the Ship's name, there are links to click on. Click on "Search".
--Choose the "Oblivion" board from the pull-down menu.
--In the search field, put "god feminine" (without the quotes).
--Click on the button at the bottom.
This will bring up a list of links to various threads, most of which have something to do with God and gender, the feminine aspect of God, etc.
I'm NOT trying to shut you down. Just giving you an opportunity to get some background.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
Thanks Golden Key.
I wasn’t interested in the gender question, it is not about the gender aspect but the human aspect. Why use a term that limits understanding, expectation, mystery.
Then again that doesn’t make much sense either, it’s hard to articulate.
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
I think the terms ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ should be seen in the context of Ancient Near Eastern relationships operating within a covenant worldview. The expectation was that everyone was (or definitely should be) in a hierarchical relation to someone else. The Father’s House was the basic unit, with the senior male – or in the absence of one the eldest female as a proxy – was responsible for all the humans, animals, and goods in his domain. The humans in that domain owed service / allegiance to that Father and he in turn owed protection and stability to them.
That worked its way up the chain. The basic unit Father owed service / allegiance to the clan head, who in turn served the tribal head, who in turn served the King. The King, in turn, may be in the same service/protection relationship to an Emperor (or ‘High King’). Ultimately all were in a relationship to the national god.
When a relationship was formed and formalised, the senior was termed the ‘Father’ and the junior ‘Son’. Relationships between people of equal rank carried the term ‘Brother’.
That’s a basic outline, but just because someone called someone else a ‘Father’ did not mean there was necessarily any biological relationship. It could be a political or other social covenantal relationship.
Partly as an aside, the fact that Jesus called God ‘Father’ does not of itself, therefore, provide support for any trinitarian doctrine. The terminology was common enough to describe any link between unequal partners to a covenant, where the junior was commissioned to do work on behalf of the senior.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I find ecumenical orthodoxy very useful, good to have behind your back.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
@Nigel M
I'm a all but 100% natural, automatic postmodernist now. I love your anthropological deconstruction, which is MOST pertinent for all the other infinite worlds where father and son and therefore Father and Son in the immanent Trinity can have no meaning.
But here, they do. They are, have been REVEALED.
Perhaps I'm fully postmodernist. And fully neo-orthodox.
[ 26. January 2018, 09:26: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
Why use a term that limits understanding, expectation, mystery.
Isn't the Trinity enough of a mystery as it is?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There's a "she" in there somewhere. And more than Mary, God's handmaid. The young people are telling us that scripture and tradition not enough. And they know the traditions are specific to nations, cultures and historical times. God in the age of Google.
[ 26. January 2018, 12:10: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
They are not not enough enough to abandon. Especially the ecumenical.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I don't know if Keryg is the place for this but one of the biggest obstacles I have with Christianity is that, in terms of orthodox, mainstream theology (rather than mysticism or devotion) God is Father but only "like" a mother. I am not convinced about the femininity of the Holy Spirit or Holy Wisdom as making up for that - and I am not wholly convinced that God was ever seen as feminine by church leaders until recently in a way that was on an equal footing to the way in which God was seen as masculine. If God was, why wasn't God ever called "She" or "Mother" in official Liturgy, creeds, councils, doctrinal rulings, etc., by the very same people who waxed poetic about a mystical feminine Spirit, Wisdom, Wife, Mother, Lover, etc., in other writings?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
...one of the biggest obstacles I have with Christianity is that, in terms of orthodox, mainstream theology (rather than mysticism or devotion) God is Father ...
God is neither male nor female, therefore, neither Father nor Mother as we normally understand those terms. Language is imperfect when describing God.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I don't know if Keryg is the place for this but one of the biggest obstacles I have with Christianity is that, in terms of orthodox, mainstream theology (rather than mysticism or devotion) God is Father but only "like" a mother. I am not convinced about the femininity of the Holy Spirit or Holy Wisdom as making up for that - and I am not wholly convinced that God was ever seen as feminine by church leaders until recently in a way that was on an equal footing to the way in which God was seen as masculine. If God was, why wasn't God ever called "She" or "Mother" in official Liturgy, creeds, councils, doctrinal rulings, etc., by the very same people who waxed poetic about a mystical feminine Spirit, Wisdom, Wife, Mother, Lover, etc., in other writings?
The Brief Statement of Faith of the PC(USA) refers to the fatherhood/motherhood of God in two places, one at the beginning and one at the end of the section on the First Person of the Trinity:
quote:
We trust in God,
Whom Jesus called Abba, Father . . . .
Like a mother who will not forsake her nursing child,
like a father who runs to welcome the prodigal home,
God is faithful still.
So there, at least, "like" is used both of God as Mother and of God as Father.
As for why God is never called “She” or “Mother” in traditional liturgy, creeds or the like, I think the answer is, at least partially, in the first part of what I quoted—Jesus used “Father,” and the church followed that example. And it seems likely that Jesus's use was influenced by Jewish use generally, which may have preferred “He” for God because “She” would have had associations with cults of fertility goddesses or the like. The ancients may have dealt with a different set of assumptions and implications regarding gendered use of language about God than many contemporary folk do.
[ 29. January 2018, 17:59: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually orthodoxy says God is both male and female and both genders find their true expression within God. God is both male and female.
Let's look at genders within human society. They are conceived as having different roles. However what pertains to one gender in one society does not always pertain to that gender in another. In some ways the OP of this thread is based on the changes that over time has come to the meaning of 'father' or being a parent of the male gender. We can ask when we say 'God is father' what do we mean? and I suspect our reply today would be very different to that of medieval theologians or first century Christian apostles. This is not because we are being perverse but because our society understands the role of 'father' differently.
My take is within the trinity of the Godhead is such a community that there are aspects of it that reflect both the male and female genders as seen currently in human society. Indeed such is the richness of that community that all possible roles for the two genders are reflect in the Godhead. We need to see God not as idealised 'man' or 'woman' but as idealised 'community'.
Thus it is not wrong to refer to God as father, nor is it wrong to refer to God as mother. God has both those aspects whatever those aspects are. They are however held within a right relationship.
We need a better theology of cultural power within the Godhead than we have at present. The strong alliance of the 'male' gender with dominance within many human societies is a bad reflection of the community within the Godhead.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I don't know if Keryg is the place for this but one of the biggest obstacles I have with Christianity is that, in terms of orthodox, mainstream theology (rather than mysticism or devotion) God is Father but only "like" a mother. I am not convinced about the femininity of the Holy Spirit or Holy Wisdom as making up for that - and I am not wholly convinced that God was ever seen as feminine by church leaders until recently in a way that was on an equal footing to the way in which God was seen as masculine. If God was, why wasn't God ever called "She" or "Mother" in official Liturgy, creeds, councils, doctrinal rulings, etc., by the very same people who waxed poetic about a mystical feminine Spirit, Wisdom, Wife, Mother, Lover, etc., in other writings?
The Brief Statement of Faith of the PC(USA) refers to the fatherhood/motherhood of God in two places, one at the beginning and one at the end of the section on the First Person of the Trinity:
quote:
We trust in God,
Whom Jesus called Abba, Father . . . .
Like a mother who will not forsake her nursing child,
like a father who runs to welcome the prodigal home,
God is faithful still.
So there, at least, "like" is used both of God as Mother and of God as Father.
As for why God is never called “She” or “Mother” in traditional liturgy, creeds or the like, I think the answer is, at least partially, in the first part of what I quoted—Jesus used “Father,” and the church followed that example. And it seems likely that Jesus's use was influenced by Jewish use generally, which may have preferred “He” for God because “She” would have had associations with cults of fertility goddesses or the like. The ancients may have dealt with a different set of assumptions and implications regarding gendered use of language about God than many contemporary folk do.
In Mainline Protestantism there has been a movement for some time to incorporate language identifying God as "She" and "Mother" in doctrinal statements and Liturgy rather than merely comparing God to a woman or a mother. But, as I said with the qualifying statement "until recently" above, this has not been the case for most of the Church and for most of Christian history - all mystical and devotional historical Christian reference to God as female aside.
Addressing God as "Mother" or referring to God (in general, not just specifically to the Holy Spirit or Holy Wisdom) as "She" in official Liturgy or doctrinal writings - especially outside of Mainline and Progressive Protestantism - is still likely to result in punishment or schism. Even within Mainline Protestantism, it is controversial because people do not want to alienate conservatives within denominations or weaken Ecumenical ties.
I am grateful for the more progressive corners of Christianity, but I often ask myself whether or not we are fooling ourselves in thinking that we can paper over a religion that - no matter how radical and egalitarian Jesus was for his time, and no matter how radical and egalitarian early Christians were for their time - is inseparable, in my opinion, from the Patriarchy in which it originated. The issue of God as Father and male pronouns as the official ones for God drives that home for me.
Gender neutral language and pronouns in enlightened (and declining) corners of the Church will not fix that unless they become as universal as the Church's rejection of slavery succeeded became by the 20th century. I am deeply pessimistic that this will happen, even in several lifetimes, and I wonder if it will happen ever. That is why this issue, among others, makes me struggle with being a Christian.
But this isn't really a discussion about Scripture so I'm not sure if it belongs in Keryg! Sorry if I am derailing the thread.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Right, since we're not focusing only on how God is addressed in Scripture, it's more of a Purgatory thread.
Off you go -- hang on to your colored ribbon markers.
Mamacita, Keryg Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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