Ship of Fools: Standing With Sweden

Thread: Standing With Sweden Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=020087

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

After all, they stood with America during the Bowling Green Massacre.

If you believe the media in Sweden, Friday night was relatively uneventful. Among the most noteworthy headlines in the country were reports that a popular Swedish singer had technical problems during a music competition.

But if you listened to President Trump on Saturday, it seemed as if something happened Friday night in Sweden that deserved the attention of the world. However, nobody knew what that might be, least of all the Swedes.

Trump continues to criticize the press as the enemy of the people with fake news, but the only one distributing it is Trump himself.

Of course, when he was challenged he said he got his information from FOX news. Apparently, FOX news is claiming the crime rate is increasing in Sweden because of the influx of Refugees, but Swedish crime records have stayed study for over two decades.

Again, who is providing fake news?

In the meantime I am standing with Sweden.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

What, stand with Sweden, that well known hotbed of terrorist support and nurture? Then wait until he discovers that every now and then Sweden has a democratic socialist government, a good universal healthcare system, and programmes for supporting those who need it.

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

If you believe the media in Sweden, Friday night was relatively uneventful.

[snip]

Swedish crime records have stayed study [steady] for over two decades.

Swedes, and their media most especially, are notorious lying bastards. Their media have been covering up all manner of mayhem for decades. Crime statistics? Lies. Damned lies. Statistics. And lying Swedish bastards.

Pass the port, please.

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

As I posted on the Trumpton thread in Hell:

I'm a Swedish-American who likes to keep in touch with the homeland. I know exactly what happened, and it's terrifying.

Friday, February 17 was the Swedish nameday for all those named Alexandra. Let this be a lesson to us al

sabine

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I can't find the meme now. But the caption is "We shall rebuild!" And the picture is a Swedish flag, and an Ikea hex screwdriver.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Ah, Euripides*: "Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad". The fake president is coming along quite nicely.

*Or somebody like him.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

I saw a meme that said something, I forget exactly what, about supporting Sweden, or praying for Sweden, and had a picture of a lit candle in a Swedish meatball.

Made me rather hungry...

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

I think it a disgrace that the Swedes have been kept in ignorance by their mendacious government and media of the egregious activities of their immigrant community. Without the unwillingness of Donald Trump to bow to diplomatic niceties they would remain ignorant of the existential threat their society is facing. Praise God, the US President has outfoxed the liars once again. He's a breath of fresh air.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

OK, Fox was providing the fake news by interviewing a nutjob who claims the Swedes are covering up immigrant violence.
Cheeto was referencing this. Still spreading rumours as propaganda, so it doesn't let him off the hook.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Let us never make light of the Bowling Grön massacre.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I just hope T's comments don't trigger something. There are Swedes who are very against other ethnicities, just like Breivik in Norway. Or like some of the creeps in the "Girl With The Dragon Tattoo" series, which takes place in Sweden.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I saw a meme that said something, I forget exactly what, about supporting Sweden, or praying for Sweden, and had a picture of a lit candle in a Swedish meatball.

Made me rather hungry...

I'll go for lacy Swedish pancakes, with fresh lingonberries and lingonberry syrup. Yummmm.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

Does anyone know where to get a swedish flag overlay for your facebook profile pick?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Again, who is providing fake news?

Given that most events (or even non-events) now have two wildly different interpretations, I think one conclusion that can be safely drawn is that the amount of fake news has spiked upwards.

Which is no laughing matter. It's one thing to have differing interpretations of events. It's quite another to have such high-level disagreement about whether events even existed.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
OK, Fox was providing the fake news by interviewing a nutjob who claims the Swedes are covering up immigrant violence.

This is the kind of story where no one really gets their opinions changed either way. If you're a Trump-hater, it's gonna be a lot of jokes about IKEA and retorts about how much better Swedish health care is.

And if you're a Trump-lover, you're gonna find all the Daily Mail articles about how Sweden is a hotbed of immigrant crime, and fire back with "Okay, so nothing happened LAST NIGHT, but..."

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Overall, I think this is win-win for the Trump administration.

Trump's approximative language has kept him one step ahead of the game all the way up to the top job - so far.

This soundbite was addressed to his core constituency, about which he has famously said that he could go out on Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and they would still back him. They really don't care about the accuracy of what he says and I guess few of them have anything more than the vaguest of ideas where either Sweden or Bowling Green are.

Meanwhile his opposition jump all over this inaccuracy and froth at the mouth. The media report it, they analyse it, the internet produces memes and even the serious-minded denizens of Purgatory go largely for satire in response. The guy is providing us with a source of entertainment, bitter though it may be.

And more importantly, distraction.

If there is anyone with half a brain in his administration (and I very much fear there is) they are quietly progressing more intricate pieces of legislation like this one which as far as I can see opens the way for corruption and embezzlement on the part of oil firms, one of whose former CEO's (and still, as I understand it, a shareholder) is now US Secretary of State.

It took me far longer to find coverage of that resolution than it did anything about Sweden, and the outrage is minimal.

Track the fake news, fine. But more people should be tracking the non-entertaining, real news.

[ 20. February 2017, 05:25: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Eutychus--

Maybe some of the leaks have come from people on T's team? Someone whose conscience is finally getting a word in?

It would be funny if *several* of them are leaking, not knowing about any of the others.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

You've all missed the real Swedish scandal. On the day in question, a live bull moose humped a wooden life-size model moose three times. That moose was clearly deliberately deceived. Or maybe just desperate enough to believe anything.

I take Eutychus point of course. But no one should be surprised at moves to deregulate business in favour of the oil industry.

Nor should it come as any surprise that the originator of the false story which Trump falsely remembered was Faux News. Carl Bernstein described Trump as the real enemy, since he is the enemy of truth. I'm not sure that's completely accurate. I have been reminded of the judges comment re John Stonehouse, the infamous UK politician who even faked his own death. "For Mr Stonehouse, truth was a moving target". For Mr Trump, too.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Eutychus--

Maybe some of the leaks have come from people on T's team? Someone whose conscience is finally getting a word in?

That is not a leak, it is what used to occupy most of the space in the media; it was called "reporting".

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Or is there something else going on? Did Trump deliberately hint at the Sweden "massacre" simply to give grist to the mill of his conspiracist supporters who will say, "See, that just shows how the media are closing ranks and hiding this terrible story because it doesn't fit into their liberal view of the world. Even Fox News has been contaminated now!"

(Personally I don't think he's bright enough to think in that way, but we all know that those evil Merino sheep in Australia were the ones who really plotted the destruction of the Twin Towers, don't we?)

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I think Kellyanne Conway's statement on Bowling Green could only have been deliberate and reflected an agenda similar to what you describe.

Trump, I'm not so sure. I would hazard a guess that his talent is in knowing how to exploit an approximate communication style to the maximum after the fact rather than deliberately planning it beforehand, unlike Conway.

In my estimation, as a linguist and interpreter, Trump's remarks could just about be put down to a disjointed train of thought (not unlike some passages in Paul's epistles...) - I think the headlines overstate the case for a direct allusion - whereas there is no way Conway's could.

[ 20. February 2017, 07:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Yes, I think he is sometimes just careless with the truth, but I note it is always in the interests of his own agenda.

But on other occasions, the misrepresentations seem to me to be calculated, deliberate. Truth as "a moving target"?

Quoted elsewhere, but I liked this from Shepard Smith of Fox News. Yes, Fox News.

quote:
Shepard Smith called him out. "It's absolutely crazy," Smith said. "He keeps repeating ridiculous throwaway lines that are not true at all and sort of avoiding this issue of Russia as if we're some kind of fools for asking the question."

I have very little doubt that when it comes to pre-election and pre-inauguration clandestine communications with Russia, he has something to hide and is purposeful in his use of smokescreens and evasions. And that's serious.

Whereas the Sweden thing may just have been a "grist to his mill" gaffe.

[ 20. February 2017, 08:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Well I agree with BT that he is not that bright, but he more than makes up for it in cunning. Distraction is a big part of that.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

This is win, win, win for Trump. The triumph of form over content in which he can never lose. How? What would he have to say or do, in character, that will turn the people who put him in power against him? The monthly rallies are a brilliant move.

Eutychus, your analyses resonates with me obviously.

Kellyanne knows that it only works to the good to get things 'wrong'? 'Accuracy' is for 'experts'. Factists.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I think there are only three things (short of force majeure circumstances) that could stop him: an action directly attributable to him alone with far-reaching real-world consequences that directly impacted his base; a crime so blatant, non-political and provable it could not be wriggled out of; or (and this is the most hopeful of the three) actions that make sitting Republicans in Congress start worrying about their reelection chances.

In the meantime, the rest, deliberate or otherwise, is useful distraction.

[ 20. February 2017, 10:18: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Aye. 3 it is if anything. That will take six months to become apparent at least. But why would it happen? His constituency's confidence cannot fail. Satire and liberal whinging are NOT speaking to power. Cost the opportunity of actually doing social action.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
You've all missed the real Swedish scandal. On the day in question, a live bull moose humped a wooden life-size model moose three times. That moose was clearly deliberately deceived. Or maybe just desperate enough to believe anything.

Clearly the moose was an ISIS terrorist disguised as a refugee moose. If we don't close our borders immediately no moose will be safe! Sad.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I just hope T's comments don't trigger something. There are Swedes who are very against other ethnicities, just like Breivik in Norway. Or like some of the creeps in the "Girl With The Dragon Tattoo" series, which takes place in Sweden.

Any word on if Sweden is also full of young women with photographic memories and unbelievably (literally) good hacking skills, along with aging and overweight yet still sexually irresistible journalists to fight them off? Preferably over a million cups of coffee and frozen pizza. (Sorry, still mad I waisted my time on the second and third books.)

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Poor moose. What a terrible trick to pull on someone. And the splinters!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Ah but there would have been a massacre if IKEA hadn't prevented it. It was only thwarted because somebody at one of the checkouts spotted the terrorists and very quickly built a wall. Imagine what might have happened if one or two of the screws in the flatpack had been missing.

Santa Lucia has protected Sweden yet again, and it wasn't even the 13th December.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Ah but there would have been a massacre if IKEA hadn't prevented it. It was only thwarted because somebody at one of the checkouts spotted the terrorists and very quickly built a wall. Imagine what might have happened if one or two of the screws in the flatpack had been missing.

Santa Lucia has protected Sweden yet again, and it wasn't even the 13th December.

What an awesome description of Trump -- one or two screws short of a flatpack.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

We must not mock. I have just heard that Paul Nuttall lost some very dear friends in the Swedish terror attack.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We must not mock. I have just heard that Paul Nuttall lost some very dear friends in the Swedish terror attack.

Non UK-resident shipmates might need to read this, to get what the reference is.

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

Writing as someone who thinks the Trump election victory is possibly he most serious internal threat to U.S. constitutional goverment since the 1850s and 1860s, I find it worrying that there is so much sneering about both Trump and the 10s of millions who admire him.

During the campaign Bill Mahr was worst, but the constant battery of contempt from Comedy Central, Saturday Night Live, etc. etc. turned out to be futile at best and counterproductive at worst.

Better to respond to each outrageous misrepresentation with a simple factual corrections, citing sources. The cumulative effect of these -- possibly summarized and talleyed up at the end of each week -- would eventually undercut the excitement provoked by Mr. Trump's daily blather. It might also provide lessons about responsible citizenship and clear, honest expression.

Mocking thsese people during the campaign clearly did not work. It may actually have increased the vote for Trump at the time when all the ,media polls were predicting a Clinton victoty.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What an awesome description of Trump -- one or two screws short of a flatpack.

I read this as "one or two screws short of a flapjack."

Which might be even better.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by roybart:

Mocking thsese people during the campaign clearly did not work. It may actually have increased the vote for Trump at the time when all the ,media polls were predicting a Clinton victoty.

Nonsense.

Parody and satire have been part of the political landscape forever. An important safety valve imo.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by roybart:

Mocking thsese people during the campaign clearly did not work. It may actually have increased the vote for Trump at the time when all the media polls were predicting a Clinton victory.
Nonsense.

Parody and satire have been part of the political landscape forever. An important safety valve imo.

I agree.

I spotted a bumper sticker this morning: "My comedy channel is Fox News. My news channel is Comedy Central."

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

quote:
Nonsense.

Parody and satire have been part of the political landscape forever. An important safety valve imo.

I am not denying that "safety valve" effect, and I am quite familiar at least with some of the political satire literature going back to ancient Greece. Nor was I speaking about satire per se.

Perhaps you have to live in the U.S. to experience the full extent and reach of the online, radio, and print world in which the Trump fanatics express their outrage. Typically, in my experience, the speaker ignores entirely the substance of anti-Trump statements or refutations, focusing instead (and obsessively) on their perception that all disagreement is insulting, condescending, and arrogant in the method of expression.

Communication methods that "work" in educated, cosmopolitan, liberal milieux seem merely to produce among Trump supporters and fellow travellers further outrage, intransigence, and a refusal to even listen.

Speaking as a leftist, I would rather see a tamping down of the rhetoric from "our" side while focusing on more useful actions: political activism, litigation in the courts, and grasping the Trump phenomenon as an opportunity for all of us to learn what rational civic discourse ought to be.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

[Overused]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by roybart:

Mocking thsese people during the campaign clearly did not work. It may actually have increased the vote for Trump at the time when all the ,media polls were predicting a Clinton victoty.
Nonsense.

Parody and satire have been part of the political landscape forever. An important safety valve imo.

Rather assumes that the paradigm hasn't changed.

I have seen several observations recently about how we got to the whole 'fake news' thing. It's been building across a number of years. The fracturing of media, through the rise of social media, has totally changed the way that people get their information.

You simply can't rely on the idea that comedy will work in the way it used to, because you can't rely on the audience sharing the same common base on which the comedy works. Those that will laugh are the ones that share your factual base. These days, those aren't the ones that actually need to hear what the comedian is saying.

[ 20. February 2017, 20:32: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Ah but there would have been a massacre if IKEA hadn't prevented it.

There's going to be a massacre at our local IKEA soon if they don't stop forcing customers into trudging the endless labyrinth of the whole store in order to get out of the bloody place.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Ah but there would have been a massacre if IKEA hadn't prevented it.
There's going to be a massacre at our local IKEA soon if they don't stop forcing customers into trudging the endless labyrinth of the whole store in order to get out of the bloody place.

My parents had no idea what they were getting in to and took my two year old along on a trip to IKEA the other day. I certainly hope they had a cart to put her in, because if you think it takes all day to get through on your own, try it with a toddler running away from you every five seconds.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Those that will laugh are the ones that share your factual base. These days, those aren't the ones that actually need to hear what the comedian is saying.

Satire, especially political satire, has always been for someone other than those who laugh. Satire seeks to pop the bubble of the pompous. It's needed as much now as when Chaplin filmed the Great Dictator.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There's going to be a massacre at our local IKEA soon if they don't stop forcing customers into trudging the endless labyrinth of the whole store in order to get out of the bloody place.

Don't they have a short cut any more?

(N.B. In this part of the world, the words "local" and "IKEA" don't go together).

[ 20. February 2017, 21:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

I love IKEA, they should run holidays, the Tardis meets Narnia with MEATBALLS.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
After all, they stood with America during the Bowling Green Massacre.
...
In the meantime I am standing with Sweden.

This will never leave me.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Ah but there would have been a massacre if IKEA hadn't prevented it.
There's going to be a massacre at our local IKEA soon if they don't stop forcing customers into trudging the endless labyrinth of the whole store in order to get out of the bloody place.

It's one of my favorite places to go for exercise when it's too hot to walk outdoors.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Satire seeks to pop the bubble of the pompous. It's needed as much now as when Chaplin filmed the Great Dictator.

The trouble is that in a badly divided American society, it is Trump's opponents who are seen as pompous.

In 1940 The Great Dictator would have had near-universal appeal in the Anglosphere - even to American isolationists, who were not necessarily sympathetic to Hitler.

Today, critics of Trump. especially when they major on trivialities such as his hair, can come across as arrogant, supercilious virtue-signallers who despise ordinary folks, and just reinforce Trump's appeal.

The role of the media, the judiciary and the public at this time is to withstand Trump rationally and factually - and to not ignore genuine issues, such as the potential danger from Islamist extremism, just because Trump overemphasises or exploits them.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

Today, critics of Trump. especially when they major on trivialities such as his hair, can come across as arrogant, supercilious virtue-signallers who despise ordinary folks, and just reinforce Trump's appeal.

This, and what Roybart and Orfeo said. To me, mocking Trump because of his hair is as offensive as slamming Obama because he was not 100% Anglo, or someone else because they use a wheelchair. Mock the stupidity of the policies and the language used to express them, but not physical attributes. Attack the idiocy of placing a man who had taken Putin's money in the past into the White House, but don't attack his hair.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Or is there something else going on? Did Trump deliberately hint at the Sweden "massacre" simply to give grist to the mill of his conspiracist supporters who will say, "See, that just shows how the media are closing ranks and hiding this terrible story because it doesn't fit into their liberal view of the world. Even Fox News has been contaminated now!"

(Personally I don't think he's bright enough to think in that way, but we all know that those evil Merino sheep in Australia were the ones who really plotted the destruction of the Twin Towers, don't we?)

Sheesh. Way to get a missile chucked at Wagga Wagga you bastard.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by roybart:

quote:
Nonsense.

Parody and satire have been part of the political landscape forever. An important safety valve imo.
I am not denying that "safety valve" effect, and I am quite familiar at least with some of the political satire literature going back to ancient Greece. Nor was I speaking about satire per se.

Perhaps you have to live in the U.S. to experience the full extent and reach of the online, radio, and print world in which the Trump fanatics express their outrage. Typically, in my experience, the speaker ignores entirely the substance of anti-Trump statements or refutations, focusing instead (and obsessively) on their perception that all disagreement is insulting, condescending, and arrogant in the method of expression.

Communication methods that "work" in educated, cosmopolitan, liberal milieux seem merely to produce among Trump supporters and fellow travellers further outrage, intransigence, and a refusal to even listen.

Speaking as a leftist, I would rather see a tamping down of the rhetoric from "our" side while focusing on more useful actions: political activism, litigation in the courts, and grasping the Trump phenomenon as an opportunity for all of us to learn what rational civic discourse ought to be.

Music too. I hope the Trump silver lining is a revival of folk music. Someone's crying Lord...

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Typical Trump. Still defending the indefensible. Here is the tweet.

quote:
Give the public a break - The FAKE NEWS media is trying to say that large scale immigration in Sweden is working out just beautifully. NOT!

Rather than admit error, he stands with Fox News in its assertion that the Swedish government is massaging the news and the statistics.

I heard a Trump apologist on CNN argue that even if just one rapist or one murderer came in through less than extreme vetting, that itself was support for the argument in favour of a pause. This extreme safety first position does not sit well with an administration which sees no value in the evidence that very low homicide-by-gun figures in Sweden (national numbers lower than those in Orange County) justify a tougher gun-control policy.

Despite being presented with the facts that crime rates are lower for immigrants than for the US population in general, she persisted with the "extreme potential risks justify extreme vetting" argument.

The idea that Sweden might teach all of us a thing or two about the best practical means to be used in resettling immigrants seems to fly over the head of folks entranced by US nationalism.

I stand with Sweden.

[ 21. February 2017, 08:56: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I doubt if he's ever admitted an error in his whole life. This will be his downfall imo.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Nothing can be boogie. Nothing. That would be rational. He's completely won the style 'debate'. How can he possibly go wrong talking like his constituency thinks? Even Republicans with PhDs?

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
she persisted with the "extreme potential risks justify extreme vetting" argument.

I doubt she'd have much time for an argument about the extreme potential risks of an incompetant President justifying extreme vetting of candidates either.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nothing can be boogie. Nothing. That would be rational. He's completely won the style 'debate'. How can he possibly go wrong talking like his constituency thinks? Even Republicans with PhDs?

He'll make a castastropic error and try to cover up/wriggle out of it.

He won't be tolerated indefinitely.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

And like psychopaths learning to act the empathy they cannot feel, he will apologize to his constituency, even take full responsibility and will always be forgiven, when eventually politically necessary. It isn't in this case.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.

Not in his eyes, obviously. But I'm convinced there are enough sane people in the US to impeach him when he goes totally off the rails - which he will, he can't cope imo.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

According to my exhaustive research,* the people have no direct say. The House of Representatives must bring the charge and vote then the Senate must also vote with a 2/3 majority.
Even were that to happen, the Pence would be in charge and that isn't a better option.

*a quick perusal of Wikipedia

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

What do we do in the mean time for the next eight years apart from wait for him to fail irremediably in his supporters' eyes?

I cannot imagine any scenario in the bounds of rational possibility that could constitute such a fail.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.
Not in his eyes, obviously. But I'm convinced there are enough sane people in the US to impeach him when he goes totally off the rails - which he will, he can't cope imo.

What Martin and lilbuddha said.

Impeachment is above all a political action. Also according to Wikipedia, it requires a majority in the House of Representatives to commence proceedings and a 2/3 majority in the Senate to convict a sitting president.

Republicans currently hold majorities in both houses.

As I said earlier, the only way they will consider impeachment is if Trump seriously compromises their reelection chances. As far as I know there is no sign of that for now. As far as I can see the Republicans are quietly implementing their agenda while Trump provides covering fire.

As for wriggling, like all con artists he is supremely good at it - witness how he is turning this Sweden storm in a teacup to his advantage with his base. If he can't wriggle, he'll find someone else to take the fall.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Maybe I'm just getting old but this whole Sweden thing has me totally baffled. The media is half full of pictures of rioting, burnt out cars and videos of the police firing warning shots and the other half has peaceful night scenes of Stockholm. Presumably the pictures and videos of rioting etc, are fake? But where are they from?

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

My grandfather had a farm near Belfast.

In the early 1970s, the IRA practice was to plant a bomb in a department store or some such, then phone in a warning; the media would rush to the scene and duly film the explosion.

I remember my grandfather complaining that this left viewers with the impression that the whole place was being permanently bombed.

In other words, media pictures are an extremely bad way of gaining an objective impression of events, still less trends.

[ 21. February 2017, 11:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.
Not in his eyes, obviously. But I'm convinced there are enough sane people in the US to impeach him when he goes totally off the rails - which he will, he can't cope imo.

This may well be, but these sane people have to: a) be in sufficient numbers in the House and Senate to take care of the necessary procedures, and b) prepared to do so.

Returning to Sweden, they have from time to time exercised their own removal processes and might be said to have it to a fine art, either by deposition (Erik XIV in 1568, Sigmund in 1599, Gustav IV Adolph in 1809), or abdication (Christina in 1654 and Ulrika in 1720). Aside from poisoning Erik XIV with porridge (and who hasn't wondered this about their morning oatmeal, at least once in their lives?) and assassinating Gustav III at a masquerade party (1792), it all seems to have been fairly civilized.

It may be that, should Mr Trump vacate his position, Sweden will generously offer a site on the Gulf of Bothnia where he might recreate his life at Mar-a-Lago.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

And here, accompanying a cheerful song about a bloody and body-strewn birthday party, is a picture of the Trump Tower-substitute that might accommodate him....with, who knows?, his bloody body strewn across the floor somewhere....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQl8fURGSrA&nohtml5=False

IJ

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Poor moose. What a terrible trick to pull on someone. And the splinters!

Think of the moose calves, won't someone please think of the moose calves!!!!

[ 21. February 2017, 18:35: Message edited by: teddybear ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Maybe I'm just getting old but this whole Sweden thing has me totally baffled. The media is half full of pictures of rioting, burnt out cars and videos of the police firing warning shots and the other half has peaceful night scenes of Stockholm. Presumably the pictures and videos of rioting etc, are fake? But where are they from?

Google image search may provide clues.

But it certainly wouldn't be the first time that a picture is attributed to a location other than its true location.

However, my own quick bit of googling indicates some form of riot in a suburb of Stockholm not long AFTER Trump's comment. So maybe he's not wrong, maybe he's just secretly from the future.

[ 22. February 2017, 01:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I heard a Trump apologist on CNN argue that even if just one rapist or one murderer came in through less than extreme vetting, that itself was support for the argument in favour of a pause.

Which is nonsense, because the base rate of rape and murder in the US from US-born folk is not zero. If immigrants are shown to have a lower rape and murder rate than locals, then it is an argument for increasing immigration.

EDIT: This is also the reason a single riot in a Stockholm suburb proves absolutely nothing one way or the other. It's yet another case of people using weather events to make claims about the climate.

[ 22. February 2017, 01:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

Returning to Sweden, they have from time to time exercised their own removal processes and might be said to have it to a fine art, either by deposition (Erik XIV in 1568, Sigmund in 1599, Gustav IV Adolph in 1809), or abdication (Christina in 1654 and Ulrika in 1720). Aside from poisoning Erik XIV with porridge (and who hasn't wondered this about their morning oatmeal, at least once in their lives?) and assassinating Gustav III at a masquerade party (1792), it all seems to have been fairly civilized.

It may be that, should Mr Trump vacate his position, Sweden will generously offer a site on the Gulf of Bothnia where he might recreate his life at Mar-a-Lago.

Verdi was well aware of the murderous reality of Swedish life and its manifestation in terrorist activitiess - think of A Masked Ball with the assassination of Gustav III. The current terorist domination of Swedish life has a long histpoy.

[ 22. February 2017, 01:37: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Sweden also invaded Russia in the winter, which proves they're (a) bloodthirsty warmongers, and (b) stupid.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Which is nonsense, because the base rate of rape and murder in the US from US-born folk is not zero. If immigrants are shown to have a lower rape and murder rate than locals, then it is an argument for increasing immigration.

Immigrants do commit fewer crimes than citizens. See here. This is true whether we're comparing uneducated border jumpers with their American peers or imported PhDs with their US peers. I could offer a couple of possible explanations. First, the penalties for immigrant crime are higher: you get kicked out of the US. Second, most people who take up a criminal lifestyle don't see a viable alternative. It seems to me likely that people who have chosen to migrate are more likely to see alternatives. Third, serious criminal convictions are a bar to legal immigration. Most crime is committed by repeat offenders, and most of them have a record starting in their youth or young adulthood. So by construction the pool of legal immigrants must contain fewer criminals than the wider population.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
According to my exhaustive research,* the people have no direct say. The House of Representatives must bring the charge and vote then the Senate must also vote with a 2/3 majority.

There's talk going round that a state's attourney general could bring a quo warranto writ against the Trump organization over the emoluments issue, rather than going after the President personally.

It seems a bit far-fetched to me, but you never know.

[ 22. February 2017, 04:52: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Sweden also invaded Russia in the winter, which proves they're (a) bloodthirsty warmongers, and (b) stupid.

More evidence to confirm that Trump was correct.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Sweden also invaded Russia in the winter, which proves they're (a) bloodthirsty warmongers, and (b) stupid.

A great satire of the ill-informed soundbites that bear little relation to actual events that the President practices.

A winter invasion allowed the Swedish army the opportunity to just walk across frozen rivers that would have been major barriers to their advance later in the year. If Russian forces hadn't retreated so quickly, the Swedes would have engaged in battle just one month into the campaign bringing superior forces against the Russian Tsar - which would have made the operation a stunning success. Though, the invasion continued throughout the summer, another winter, finally ending in defeat during the summer 18 months after the invasion. Invasion in winter was a risky but inspired strategy that a) very nearly came off and b) wasn't a factor in the eventual defeat.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

orfeo is right of course. What is bothersome is that the riot which did occur came after Trump's mistaken statements. After does not necessarily mean because of, but it makes you wonder about the provocative effects of careless talk. I think the Swedes have done very well in their policies and approaches, which is not to say that the welcoming of immigrants doesn't produce some rubbing edges.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

What I note is that we are now all talking about riots in Sweden instead of anything to do with the US.

The guy truly is a master of deflection and the media follow like a bunch of chihuahas with their dog-walker.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

The only effect of satire is to keep up the spirits of the losing side. Witness Brexit.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

And not just Sweden. Here's strong evidence that New Zealand, a country known for its soft immigration policy, is also a hotbed of terrorism, as admitted by its own Prime Minister.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What I note is that we are now all talking about riots in Sweden instead of anything to do with the US.

The guy truly is a master of deflection and the media follow like a bunch of chihuahas with their dog-walker.

Sure is. But he is creating an unforgettable record of assholery despite all of that. Things add up in time.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

He'd have to lose a war, get Kwajalein nuked by Kim Wrong Un, for people even to pause in adoring him for pretending to be them. There is no tipping point in accumulated assholery that could possibly make his constituency wake up, to what?

Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What I note is that we are now all talking about riots in Sweden instead of anything to do with the US.

The guy truly is a master of deflection and the media follow like a bunch of chihuahas with their dog-walker.

You're right. Maybe news media should have a "Trump's Agenda" sidebar to collect and 'report' the attempts at deflection but very deliberately concentrate on actual news for headlines and main reports.

Also they ought to not engage in his Admin's Press Conferences but just place a camera to record it and summarise later anything of interest that was said and completely ignore the anti-media hype - which isn't news.

[ 22. February 2017, 12:58: Message edited by: Clint Boggis ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
he is creating an unforgettable record of assholery despite all of that. Things add up in time.

I don't think so.

There is such an unrelenting barrage of this stuff, and it is so superficial, that it quickly becomes impossible to keep up with it or prioritise it.

How many Daily Mail front page stories can you remember from the past year?

It's popcorn, that's all. Trying to criticise it will look stupid and petty.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
He'd have to lose a war, get Kwajalein nuked by Kim Wrong Un, for people even to pause in adoring him for pretending to be them. There is no tipping point in accumulated assholery that could possibly make his constituency wake up, to what?

However, Martin, as Abraham Lincoln, one of Trump's more august predecessors in office, may or may not have said,

quote:
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

That was before the days of social media.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Because important messages are delivered with so much more authority as Tweets.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Yes, I'd say that's precisely the perception of typical Trump supporters. Have you seen this video?

[ 22. February 2017, 14:29: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Trump is a prophet!

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I think that fundamentally Trump is an entertainer.

And, especially at his rallies, his supporters look very unlike traditional political activists and much more like fans.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Trump is a prophet!

Of what or whom?

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
he is creating an unforgettable record of assholery despite all of that. Things add up in time.
I don't think so.

There is such an unrelenting barrage of this stuff, and it is so superficial, that it quickly becomes impossible to keep up with it or prioritise it.

Polls are, understandably, under deep suspicion these days, but according to CNN this morning Trump's popularity rating has dropped by 4% points (from 42 to 38) in the past few weeks.

How diehard are his diehard supporters, and how many are there? Well, we'll see.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Trump is a prophet!
Of what or whom?

Sweden!!!

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0