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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Personality Tests: Harmful Bullshit or Bullshit which is Harmful?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Two problems: one is that a well designed test is difficult to formulate. The nature of bias is that we do not see it.
Two would be that, even if a personality test were perfect, it doesn't mean anything in hiring. We are talking about jobs and organisations, not crèches. I don't mean to sound harsh, working together well isn't found by matching scores on a test. And, seeing the results of that kind of matching, it doesn't bloody work anyway.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Two would be that, even if a personality test were perfect, it doesn't mean anything in hiring.
The Myers Briggs Foundation agrees with you.
quote:
I don't mean to sound harsh, working together well isn't found by matching scores on a test. And, seeing the results of that kind of matching, it doesn't bloody work anyway.
I think that misses the point. A greater appreciation of human diversity may help people to appreciate diverse contributions to teamwork. There is no certainty in that, of course.
Based on a sample of one, the teamwork in our marriage improved as a result of the insight that our different preferences were not some kinds of character defect to be tolerated. That's the virtue of a value free view of aspects of personality variation and it's a lot better than pointing the finger.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A greater appreciation of human diversity may help people to appreciate diverse contributions to teamwork. There is no certainty in that, of course.
I simply see no evidence those tests give any indication that they are good at doing this.
quote:
Based on a sample of one, the teamwork in our marriage improved as a result of the insight that our different preferences were not some kinds of character defect to be tolerated. That's the virtue of a value free view of aspects of personality variation and it's a lot better than pointing the finger.
I refuse to believe that you truly needed a test for this.
ISTM, the desire to work with people creates the path that predisposes some to accept the tests as they appear to offer a path to do so.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I refuse to believe that you truly needed a test for this.
We did. It's not an uncommon blind spot. The B62 you read here postdates the illuminating weekend we had together in the mid 1990s. But it wasn't just the test of course. There were a number of illuminating exercises which still make us chuckle.
My personal favourite involved a discussion over some topic. Groups had been formed firstly of those with a preference for J and those with a preference for P. Then there was a remixing of groups, so that the Js and Ps were mixed rather than separate. The idea was to continue discussing the same topic.
In the group next to the one I was in, a clearly well organised J sat down, opened her note book which contained very neat notes and began. "Shall we compare notes?" A P lady looked at her, puzzled. "Notes? What notes?".
I got a fit of the giggles, as did a number of others. Pretty soon the laughter became open as the story got around. The two folks who started this were helpless with laughter as they realised what they had inadvertently illustrated.
There was a lot of laughter that weekend, mixed in with a good number of 'hmm' moments. It opened our eyes to several blind spots.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Even if a personality test were perfect, it doesn't mean anything in hiring. We are talking about jobs and organisations, not crèches. I don't mean to sound harsh, working together well isn't found by matching scores on a test. And, seeing the results of that kind of matching, it doesn't bloody work anyway.
I said that these tests would presumably be looked at alongside interviews and character references, etc. I also made reference to recruitment assessment days which would involve engaging in challenging activities. Obviously, no one is going to hire a person based purely on results of one of these tests!
I don't mean to be harsh either, o wise one, but it does help if you read what someone has actually written!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Alright. Plain and blunt. I don't think personality tests should be used at all. Full stop. I think they give irrelevant information.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
OTOH, they did give both Myers and Briggs a moment of fame, and then there are the jobs administering the tests, keeping people off the streets. So they have had some utility.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
OTOH, they did give both Myers and Briggs a moment of fame, and then there are the jobs administering the tests, keeping people off the streets. So they have had some utility.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
But I think you misunderstand. lilBuddha is quite right to decry any use of MBTI for job selection. But wrong, I think, to deny its usefulness in looking at the way human diversity can impact teamwork.
I've reflected a bit further on recent exchanges. According to the MBTI trainers I know and have met, the questionnaire results are not regarded as definitive, rather they are advisory to the person who completed the questionnaire. That's just one of the reasons why definitive use by HR units is unethical and unfair.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
That's just one of the reasons why definitive use by HR units is unethical and unfair.
Agree. My view is that if the tests don't work then this introduces random noise into hiring - which isn't fair. If they do work then this introduces selection of personality types into hiring - which isn't fair.
For those claiming that they are a helpful way of assessing diversity I'm missing the evidence of their validity. It's fine to assert that they provide helpful language for dealing with particular conflicts and relationships based on personal experience, but to claim that they are a valid reflection of personality would need some evidence or testing. I don't think any such evidence exists?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
To what degree might these tests unconsciously include a cultural or racist bias? I know this was an accusation made about the old IQ tests.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
OTOH, they did give both Myers and Briggs a moment of fame, and then there are the jobs administering the tests, keeping people off the streets. So they have had some utility.
But I think you misunderstand. lilBuddha is quite right to decry any use of MBTI for job selection. But wrong, I think, to deny its usefulness in looking at the way human diversity can impact teamwork.
I don't see how you can reach that second sentence unless you are happy that the results are in fact measuring diversity in such a way as to give some prediction about teamwork. As mdijon's post implies, there is no real evidence or independent test which permits that conclusion.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
This can't be done without quoting Ken.
quote:
Can the last Myers-Briggs witchdoctor be choked to death by being stuffed every book in the world that takes fucking Fowler's fucking stages of fucking faith fucking seriously and all of them burned on a funeral pyre made up of Gardener's Learning Styles?
And all the rest of the fluffy-bunny pseudo-scientific pop-psychology mendacious controlling bollocks that has been infesting the church like a plague for the past too many decades.
[...]
ken was a brilliant, immensely well-informed and insightful poster. And yet, on this issue, his scorn for Myers-Briggs reminds me of an exchange during an episode of Friends, when half of the main characters fall out with the other half over how much money they are expected to spend when they go out:-
quote:
Ross: I just never think of money as an issue.
Rachel: That's 'cause you have it.
Yes, it's not scientific. Of course, it shouldn't be used to decide which job to do, or who to marry, or anything like that. Of course, it's not an excuse.
I didn't know ken personally but I remember how he came across here: as a confident extrovert who thought everyone should live in big cities because it's great when there are lots of people around. I imagine ken looking at Myers Briggs and thinking: "that's ridiculous! I cannot see any value whatsoever in communicating such obvious, simplistic knowledge about people!" To which I would reply, like Rachel, "that's because you have it."
Growing up as a shy introvert, I didn't have a clue about people. Myers-Briggs doesn't provide scientific answers and it doesn't explain everything about people. It did provide basic ideas, which helped me to begin to make sense of some aspects of how people relate and how conflicts can happen. That's close to what mdijon said:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It's fine to assert that they provide helpful language for dealing with particular conflicts and relationships based on personal experience, but to claim that they are a valid reflection of personality would need some evidence or testing. I don't think any such evidence exists?
For me, the evidence that matters is my experience. For example, I have seen friends being super-energised after being around people for a long time, while I'm exhausted (the extroversion/introversion divide). I had a personality clash with a textbook, which made more sense when I realised that the author loved details and didn't care about the big picture, while I prefer the opposite (the sensing/intuition divide). (Of course, I still had to study those details - Myers Briggs is not an excuse). A clash with a friend when planning a holiday made sense when I interpreted what was happening as a judging/perceiving clash. I, with a preference for judging, wanted to book every stage of the journey in advance. My friend, a perceiver, wanted to keep everything open. Is that scientific evidence? Of course not! But not everything which is useful is science.
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I took the Myers-Briggs several years ago. It found I was hardly judgmental at all. I clung to that for a long time.
Working at myself with the help of someone who was good at what he does revealed I am highly judgmental. [...]
As I showed above, that's not what Myers-Briggs means by 'judging'. This, I suggest, is the equivalent of attending a Christian communion service and being surprised that no cannibalism occurred.
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
FWIW I just looked at MB again and the same thoughts as usual occurred to me with the two middle letters = I prefer whichever is appropriate to the job in hand. As for the final J/P or whatever it is, well I don't like targets, routines, plans and whatnot but that's because I'm a lazy bugger and they're more work. That's why I wouldn't have any notes to compare - I always wonder why people take notes in sermons and things because it's not like there's an exam where they'll ever revise those notes. I assume they've never thought it through. I'd love someone to tell me they actually make use of their sermon notes ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
But that's by the bye; I knew this already, otherwise I wouldn't be able to answer the questions. All it told me was what I told it - I don't like big groups of people, socialising tires me out, and I'm disorganised. You'd get just as much useful introspection and appreciation of diversity if you got people to score themselves on their preference for comedy or drama, whether they like to dress smartly and what time they like to go to bed.
[ 15. July 2017, 12:31: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'd like to add, BTW, that because MTBI tries to split normal distributions into binary categories, two people could be say INTP by being on the 51st percentile in each category, and the next day be ESFJ by each category shifting a mere two points. Given the normal distribution, and therefore the bunching around the 50th, a lot of people are going to be near enough the middle on one or more of these scales to shift readily.
As I say, the middle two don't even make sense. They both describe approaches that would be good for some tasks and poor for others, and it's not a matter of preference but appropriateness.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I took the Myers-Briggs several years ago. It found I was hardly judgmental at all. I clung to that for a long time.
Eh?
The 'J' on one of the scales stands for "judging", but this is the first time I've ever seen someone equate that with whether or not one is "judgmental".
[ 15. July 2017, 13:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
As I say, the middle two don't even make sense. They both describe approaches that would be good for some tasks and poor for others, and it's not a matter of preference but appropriateness.
Another "Eh?" moment, because I fail to see how there's anything in the tests that dictates that one must always behave in the same way no matter the circumstances.
A description of preferences is not a mandate. The statement that I'm left-handed is a description of my general preference, all other things being equal, to perform tasks with my left hand. It is not a claim that my right hand has withered and is unusable.
PS And yes, people described as "left-handed" do vary in the degree to which they have a preference for using their left hand. This is generally not seen as a reason for abandoning the descriptive term altogether, except possibly by you.
[ 15. July 2017, 13:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
But that's my point. My preference is "whatever is most appropriate". There doesn't seem to be a category for that.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But that's my point. My preference is "whatever is most appropriate". There doesn't seem to be a category for that.
Because that's in fact a claim that you have no innate preference.
It's also a claim that appropriateness is objective, which I would at least question. There are situations where 2 people would have different views about what is "appropriate" and behave accordingly.
[ 15. July 2017, 14:02: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
That's why I wouldn't have any notes to compare - I always wonder why people take notes in sermons and things because it's not like there's an exam where they'll ever revise those notes. I assume they've never thought it through. I'd love someone to tell me they actually make use of their sermon notes
In your mind taking notes during a sermon is useless so anyone who does take notes hasn't thought it through? That seems a rather ironic suggestion in this thread. You may well predict exactly what the MB would say about you (arguably anyone with decent self-awareness wouldn't be surprised by what they get on the MB); predicting what the MB might say about the preferences of others on things like processing information might not be so obvious to you if you're just going to assume they haven't thought it through.
Some people take notes because the act of taking notes—of writing down and simultaneously reading—reinforces what they're hearing and helps them remember it. (I'm the opposite; I can't listen and take notes at the same time.) My wife does this from time to time. She rarely looks at the notes once the service is over; the purpose was served simply by taking the notes to start with.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But that's my point. My preference is "whatever is most appropriate". There doesn't seem to be a category for that.
Because that's in fact a claim that you have no innate preference.
Or no strong dominant function as opposed to the auxiliary function, which can be reflected in the MB by scoring in the middle of the E-I, S-N, F-T or J-P scales.
[ 15. July 2017, 14:24: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Or no strong dominant function as opposed to the auxiliary function, which can be reflected in the MB by scoring in the middle of the E-I, S-N, F-T or J-P scales.
Sorry, got mixed up and didn't catch it until the edit window closed. Should have been no preference that consistently predominates, not dominant or auxiliary functions.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
For me, the evidence that matters is my experience.
So that's fine as evidence that it can be useful for some people. But that's not evidence that it accurately types personalities.
(By the way, interesting that you are clear about ken's personality without any formal M-B testing. I expect you are right, actually. And how would the M-B typing improve on that?)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
PS And yes, people described as "left-handed" do vary in the degree to which they have a preference for using their left hand. This is generally not seen as a reason for abandoning the descriptive term altogether, except possibly by you.
Well, if you evaluate left-handedness by how the questions are presented in the MBTI, then it merely registers your degree of evil. However, if you evaluate it by how the MBTI scores then you are just evil.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
(By the way, interesting that you are clear about ken's personality without any formal M-B testing. I expect you are right, actually. And how would the M-B typing improve on that?)
clap I N G O and what was his name-O?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Has anyone on the Ship ever done the Enneagram? It's something I've thought about doing for a while, just out of curiosity, but never got round to it...
Yes. Mr Nen and I had a powerful encounter with the Enneagram last year and have been working with it ever since. It's so much more than simply a personality-typing system, with wisdom teaching and spirituality in it too. I personally found Myers-Briggs of very limited use - yes, that describes me... now what...?
I wouldn't advise trying to get your Enneagram type from a test, though, and even a book is of limited use. The best way is by the narrative tradition - meeting with a group of people and a skilled teacher and unpacking it together. It took me two days of a three day course to discover my type and I'd never have found it from a test or a book.
Mr Nen and I, as individuals and as a couple, find it an excellent tool for self-knowledge and awareness and personal development; it also gives us a language with which to talk about some of those difficult and recurring problems that come up in a relationship.
Nen - Enneagram Bore.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
That's just one of the reasons why definitive use by HR units is unethical and unfair.
Agree. My view is that if the tests don't work then this introduces random noise into hiring - which isn't fair. If they do work then this introduces selection of personality types into hiring - which isn't fair.
For those claiming that they are a helpful way of assessing diversity I'm missing the evidence of their validity. It's fine to assert that they provide helpful language for dealing with particular conflicts and relationships based on personal experience, but to claim that they are a valid reflection of personality would need some evidence or testing. I don't think any such evidence exists?
I don't think there has been any form of external audit or peer review of the many published case studies. At least, I haven't seen any.
Do any similar reviews exist re Freudian case studies?
Nor do I think there is any physiological evidence (brain chemistry, patterns of brain electrical activity) to support type indicators.
Although things are moving fast re brain physiology and I believe that some connections will be found with psychological models, that's for the future.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Do any similar reviews exist re Freudian case studies?
No, not one. But how many people these days would assert that Freud has anything much worthwhile to say? Yet people still make claims in favour of Myers-Briggs.
[ 15. July 2017, 21:04: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd like to add, BTW, that because MTBI tries to split normal distributions into binary categories, two people could be say INTP by being on the 51st percentile in each category, and the next day be ESFJ by each category shifting a mere two points. Given the normal distribution, and therefore the bunching around the 50th, a lot of people are going to be near enough the middle on one or more of these scales to shift readily.
As I mentioned earlier, my test was given and scored by a professional. He told me that a score of ten or less was virtually meaningless.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But how many people these days would assert that Freud has anything much worthwhile to say?
Perhaps the history or medicine and psychiatry isn't studied anymore. So let's do a brief run down....That there is such a thing as motivations, feelings and thoughts which someone might be unaware of but still affects behaviour and health. We call it the unconscious.
That there common themes of human life which play out in our relationships, our health, our feelings,thoughts and goals. So that we are all dealing with issues of fear, anxiety, self worth, anger, sex, love, all the time, and we follow scripts unconsciously.
That humans are caught between life and death all the time, with love and aggression being foundations of life.
And finally, in this incomplete list, that if someone is troubled, it is helpful to talk with them and try to sort out the themes.
We owe quite a bit to Freud actually. Just because the foundations of medicine, psychiatry and psychotherapy are buried, doesn't mean we owe nothing to it. It's like throwing out the old testament because we've advanced with the new. Not recommended.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd like to add, BTW, that because MTBI tries to split normal distributions into binary categories, two people could be say INTP by being on the 51st percentile in each category, and the next day be ESFJ by each category shifting a mere two points. Given the normal distribution, and therefore the bunching around the 50th, a lot of people are going to be near enough the middle on one or more of these scales to shift readily.
As I mentioned earlier, my test was given and scored by a professional. He told me that a score of ten or less was virtually meaningless.
Moo
Ten or less out of what? How's it scored?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
For me, the evidence that matters is my experience.
So that's fine as evidence that it can be useful for some people. But that's not evidence that it accurately types personalities.
That's true! It's not scientific. It helps me to make sense of some personality conflicts; beyond that, I don't need it to accurately type personalities. I don't expect it to do more than provide a few ideas to help me understand how some people see the world differently.
Of course, Myers Briggs advertises itself as a type indicator - it's in the full name (MBTI). But, for me, the value of Myers Briggs isn't mainly about allocating people to types, it's about recognising what is happening when types conflict. (Admittedly, those things overlap: recognising conflict involves believing that someone else has a different type/preference).
What is the value of recognising what is happening when types conflict? In the examples I gave before, such as planning a holiday, thinking about the situation in terms of a personality conflict (using Myers Briggs) helped me to relax a bit. That made it easier to resolve the situation amicably.
People might think, 'I don't need Myers Briggs to tell me about personality clashes'. Fair enough! For me the value of Myers Briggs was - and is - a bit like the stabilisers on a kid's bike. Confident cyclists, like ken, never needed stabilisers and might think it's ridiculous that anyone would need them. But they helped me, as I wobbled nervously through getting to know people and working with them. At times, I still find them helpful (that is where the analogy breaks down.) That's why I wanted to post my reaction to people pouring scorn on Myers Briggs - when I see such comments, I feel a bit like a kid on a bike with stabilisers, being laughed at by the confident (or well co-ordinated) people who didn't need them.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
(By the way, interesting that you are clear about ken's personality without any formal M-B testing. I expect you are right, actually. And how would the M-B typing improve on that?)
Yes, I'm clear about how he came across in his posts, having read quite a few of them (I remember him commenting about how much he liked living in big cities and why, for example).
I don't think that Myers Briggs explains everything about people or that it is necessary to understand something about a person. Would Myers Briggs improve on my understanding of ken? Maybe not; Myers Briggs offers a rough guide to some aspects of human interaction, it's not a comprehensive manual of everything about how people to relate to each other. If, for example, I had gone to an arts festival with him, then it might have prompted me to explain why, when I needed to spend some time on my own, this didn't mean that there was a problem.
[ 16. July 2017, 10:46: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
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Barnabas62
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I wasn't sure either, Karl. Scoring the questionnaire will give for any of the pairs of presence a score of X for one and y for the other, and a net score of x-y. From memory, a net score of 10 or less is pretty marginal. Using the handedness analogy, it means you are pretty close to ambidextrous on that pair.
Rather like you I'm pretty well ambidextrous on J and P and it depends on the job. I prefer to leave a wide safety margin when journey planning but hate taking notes! My wife is pretty much my mirror image on those preferences. And we both come out as marginal J preferees.
So we have a deal. I plan journey times, she makes lists. Saves mutual stress. Might we have got there without MB insights? Maybe. But we didn't.
[ 16. July 2017, 11:38: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Originally posted by mdijon:
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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Nor do I think there is any physiological evidence (brain chemistry, patterns of brain electrical activity) to support type indicators.
I'm not sure whether to believe all of this but this is the sort of thing I was talking about.
It seems at least plausible for the "big 5" personality traits. (Nothing to do with MB).
There is also some evidence of correlation between 4 of the Big Five and MB. But as that article makes clear, correlation is not confirmation. I was told many years ago of the correlation between birth rate and stork population in the Netherlands. I was also told that was a myth!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mdijon
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
If, for example, I had gone to an arts festival with him, then it might have prompted me to explain why, when I needed to spend some time on my own, this didn't mean that there was a problem.
I'm completely accepting of the fact that some people might need prompting to explain that. I would regard it as common sense, but there are plenty of things other people see as common sense that I need to get reminded about.
My problem with MB is not accepting the need for stabilisers per se. My problem is the idea that one needs to purchase a branded piece of engineering incorporating bespoke side-to-side movement parameter estimates, taking into account the number of spokes in the bike and the counterpoint balance of the bicycle frame, as assessed for the cyclist using the propriety Mdijon-Bollocks framework when an L-shaped bit of metal with a wheel and screw would have done fine.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by Moo:
As I mentioned earlier, my test was given and scored by a professional. He told me that a score of ten or less was virtually meaningless.
Moo
Ten or less out of what? How's it scored?
Here's an example. On the introvert-extrovert scale the possible scores range from 0-50 introvert to 0-50 extrovert. A person who scores 10 or less introvert or extrovert is borderline. I score 43 introvert. This is useful information for me. I knew I was an introvert, but I didn't realize just how different I was from average.
One difference between introverts and extroverts is how they express themselves in conversation. Extroverts tend to say a lot before they get to their main point; introverts state their point succinctly and shut up. An introvert gets frustrated waiting for an extrovert to get to the point, and an extrovert misses the introvert's point because he didn't expect anything so bare-bones. You may have noticed that my posts on the ship are usually quite succinct.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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So my MB type is I--- because I have non-significant scores on other axes. So why do tests insist on IXXX where the X is something? Given that all the axes show normal distributions, why aren't more people given types with some of the positions left unfilled? This is one of the problems. I've said before that I think that the I/E exis is the only one that has any validity.
[ 16. July 2017, 12:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Alwyn
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
[...] My problem is the idea that one needs to purchase a branded piece of engineering incorporating bespoke side-to-side movement parameter estimates, taking into account the number of spokes in the bike and the counterpoint balance of the bicycle frame, as assessed for the cyclist using the propriety Mdijon-Bollocks framework when an L-shaped bit of metal with a wheel and screw would have done fine.
You seem to suggest that Myers Briggs makes something simple into something complicated. My experience is that it does the reverse. Maybe too simple, at times - but a bit of basic knowledge is more useful than nothing.
You seem to be saying that Myers Briggs involves purchasing expensive branded stuff. My experience was nothing like that - I took part in a couple of Myers Briggs workshops led by a youth worker in a church hall - it was simple, homemade in style and either free or inexpensive (I cannot remember which).
As for 'the idea that one needs to purchase' Myers Briggs, I don't have a problem with people learning the same things by any method they like. To follow your analogy, maybe you learned how to fix your bike when you grew up, but I didn't. If I spend a couple of evenings learning how, and it costs me a handful of pounds, why should you care? While some of the criticism of Myers Briggs is fair enough, some of it still feels like people laughing at others who are less socially confident.
[ 16. July 2017, 12:41: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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I'm an introvert with some autistic characteristics. No, social confidence doesn't come into it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So my MB type is I--- because I have non-significant scores on other axes. So why do tests insist on IXXX where the X is something? Given that all the axes show normal distributions, why aren't more people given types with some of the positions left unfilled? This is one of the problems. I've said before that I think that the I/E exis is the only one that has any validity.
The I/E axis is the only one that has validity for you. I am INFX. The first three reflect something genuine; the last is borderline. I agree that this should be made much clearer.
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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It's also the only axis that researchers doing objective evidence-based research can find any validity to.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Ohher
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's also the only axis that researchers doing objective evidence-based research can find any validity to.
It may also be the only axis that actually matters in the hiring process (since it's the personality test - HR connection originally under examination here). Years ago, when I was working in the disabilities field, we discovered that the one major factor in keeping employees with disabilities retained in their jobs came down to things like whether they took a turn with non-disabled employees in bringing the doughnuts or doing the coffee run. Those behaviors turned out to matter at least as much, and possibly more, than their actual job skills in being kept on at their job placements.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
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mdijon
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Posted
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Originally posted by Alwyn:
I took part in a couple of Myers Briggs workshops led by a youth worker in a church hall - it was simple, homemade in style and either free or inexpensive (I cannot remember which).
But the youth worker will have spent time, effort and money on getting trained in Myers Briggs.
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
If I spend a couple of evenings learning how, and it costs me a handful of pounds, why should you care?
I don't care in the sense that I want to ban it, but I do have an opinion that the claims made for accuracy of personality typing by MB aren't evidenced.
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
While some of the criticism of Myers Briggs is fair enough, some of it still feels like people laughing at others who are less socially confident.
I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent. I don't want to mock those less socially confident, but I do feel that Myers Briggs is making claims that aren't evidenced. Fine that some people find it helpful. I personally believe that any psychology questionnaire downloadable from the internet would be capable of supporting the same helpful discussions. And there's really no evidence that Myers Briggs methodology is able to pull out anything reproducible or validated regarding people's personalities.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Originally posted by Ohher:
It may also be the only axis that actually matters in the hiring process
I also think it immoral to want to hire extroverts. People should be hired for their ability to do the job, not for perceptions of personality that could be culturally influenced (and therefore a potential source of unconscious bias in hiring) or unalterable.
If its important they get doughnuts at work to get on then tell them to get doughnuts at work.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Well, there are jobs where the ability to be outgoing and chatty all day and every day is relevant to the work required. An introvert would be the obvious choice, but some people are willing and able to switch between an introvert and an extrovert persona as required.
But having read some of the comments above, something in me wonders if there's a test that reveals the kinds of personality types most likely to hate personality tests. It's a bit of a cheeky thought, but it's also genuinely interesting. To me, at least.
[ 16. July 2017, 14:38: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes.
But I cannot recall the details. Sometimes individuals have guessed a person's mbti based on their dislike of these tests. They are right about 50% of the time (if it was type at random it should be 1/16). Which is high but not high enough to be fail safe.
Jengie.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's also the only axis that researchers doing objective evidence-based research can find any validity to.
OK, so I do not score in the middle between introversion and extroversion, but very high in both. Ambiversion it is called, sometimes, but I think it more the beginning of understanding that this is a more complex matter than the simple labels make it appear.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes.
But I cannot recall the details. Sometimes individuals have guessed a person's mbti based on their dislike of these tests. They are right about 50% of the time (if it was type at random it should be 1/16). Which is high but not high enough to be fail safe.
Jengie.
Given that the borders of the "types" are fairly mushy, it would be difficult to have a lower guess rate.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, there are jobs where the ability to be outgoing and chatty all day and every day is relevant to the work required.
Then have a chat with the candidates at interview and see how chatty they are. Test the ability to do the thing that you want done, not an unvalidated personality test that you believe is related to the thing you want done.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
It may also be the only axis that actually matters in the hiring process
I also think it immoral to want to hire extroverts. People should be hired for their ability to do the job,
I didn't say how this matters; HR depts. might well select for introversion, hiring people less apt to socialize on the job.
In supported employment, it may matter, however, that one gets along with co-workers. Folks with severe disabilities (i.e. sharply noticeable differences from co-workers in sensory, motor, and/or cognitive functioning), there's often an initial trial period, where co-workers get a say in how the supported employee is working out.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
If its important they get doughnuts at work to get on then tell them to get doughnuts at work.
Sadly, one of the "tests" of getting along is the noticing of and adapting to unspoken rules. Who brings the doughnuts or goes out for the coffee is often one of those unspoken norms.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
I didn't say how this matters; HR depts. might well select for introversion, hiring people less apt to socialize on the job.
I'm equal opportunities about this. If its immoral to select extroverts for being extroverts its immoral to select introverts for being introverts.
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Sadly, one of the "tests" of getting along is the noticing of and adapting to unspoken rules. Who brings the doughnuts or goes out for the coffee is often one of those unspoken norms.
Sounds like the kind of workplace culture that needs an overhaul to me.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm equal opportunities about this. If its immoral to select extroverts for being extroverts its immoral to select introverts for being introverts
We agree. Assessments of suitability match candidates' KSE (knowledge, skills, experience) against the job description. That's interview board 101. Or at least used to be.
[ 16. July 2017, 20:14: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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