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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The current scandals and my political dilemma
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
If a politician has one or more credible and sufficiently grave accusations of sexual harassment or assault against them, even if they genuinely apologize and attempt to make amends, should voters of conscience refuse to vote for them? Should they insist that such politicians resign immediately or withdraw from races they are running in? If it depends, when can a voter in good conscience vote for such a candidate or support (or at least tolerate) their remaining in office or in a race?
On another thread, I (who like to think of myself as left-of-center and progressive), criticized Democrats and progressive institutions for not sufficiently distancing themselves from Bill Clinton for the accusation sexual assault and accusations of sexual harassment against him from his past.
Now Al Franken has been accused of forcibly sticking his tongue down a woman's throat and, in another instance, of groping her in her sleep (in the latter case with photographic evidence) during a trip to perform for troops in the Middle East before he was a Senator.
I believe he should resign immediately, but with Trump in the White House, the current narrow GOP majority in the Senate, and the threat that I believe is posed by what is yet another attempt to dismantle Obamacare being snuck into the GOP tax plan, in addition to the damage that the assembly line of (at times grossly unqualified) Trump-nominated judges and other nominees are doing to our rights, our environment, and our democracy - I am afraid I might hesitate to call for Franken's resignation if I did not know that his state had a Democratic governor (who appoint someone to fill Franken's seat until a special election could be held the following November). I feel disgusted with myself and like a complete hypocrite because of this, no matter what I tell myself about the GOP assault on the rights of women.
What do you think? Does the opposing candidate have to be just as atrocious in their personal actions to allow one to morally continue to support their own party's candidate when they face such accusations? Or can you get off the hook for supporting such a candidate of your own party if the other party's policies are atrocious enough, even if the other party's candidate does not have such accusation against them? And how atrocious do the policies of the other party have to be? With apologies for invoking Godwin's Law, does the other party basically need to have policies literally as bad as Hitler's (which Trump does not have at the moment, although he has been on his way there ever since his campaign) in order for it to be ok to support a sexual abuser in one's own party?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
I was just at the point of writing to Franken (complete with small donation) about running for President in 2020 when this news broke.
That's not going in the mail.
My first thought was, dear God, are there ANY male entertainers, politicians, clergy, military leaders, etc. etc. who do NOT force themselves sexually on women and/or children?
My second thought was, "Maybe it isn't true."
Then I read about the photo.
And now I give up. I hope you find an answer to your dilemma. I hope I find one for my own.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Well, Franken's from two of the worst groups (re: sexual misconduct) - Hollywood and politics.
It does seem like he's been a good Senator, but right now I think it's important for progressives to hold high standards. If we don't, well, no one will, because the right seems to have abandoned that concern. If we say we're not going to tolerate sexual assault and harassment, and then we tolerate it because it's "our guy," we not only cede any moral high ground, we also agree that hypocrisy is acceptable in government. (ETA: And we sacrifice real women and children in the process.)
If, on the other hand, we don't agree that hypocrisy is acceptable, then we're in a place where we can genuinely call our fellow citizens on the other side of the aisle back to some semblance of integrity.
[ 16. November 2017, 21:13: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I'm really disappointed about Al, too.
But...are you going to find anyone better? Congress is known for sexual scandals--and those are just the ones we *know* about. (And a female member of Congress has mentioned current or recent members as harassers. Don't think she's named names.)
I don't know what you should do. I'm in an "are all men like that?" mood. I know there are good guys out there. But with this onslaught of reports, it's hard to remember.
BTW, T has refused to comment on the harassment/assault situation.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
At least he's apologized. Unlike some people.
We should all be aware that there's going to be a ton of this kind of thing. Not only true things, but false. I guarantee you that it will now be a standard political weapon against every candidate in a contested election.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yeah, I'm a little concerned that there may be false claims--because they will be seen as discrediting all the true ones.
To anyone thinking of making a purposely-false claim, and anyone trying to get someone to do that:
DON'T. You'll be selling out all the abuse survivors and current victims on the planet.
Seriously.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There are men who strongly identify with their sister, mothers, spouses, daughters, girlfriends, friends who are women. The have empathy: the capacity to put themselves in the place of others and understand how they likely feel. Who are on the opposite end of the spectrum from all of this.
The don't be that guy campaign was very direct about this problem.
Your senator needs to resign.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Al Franken was my favorite politician, I used to listen to his talk radio show every day. I would have voted for him for president. But then Bill Cosby was my favorite comedian.
I don't think we can choose to ignore the accusations because we want his vote in congress anymore than we could ignore Cosby's accusations because we loved his body of work. To do so says to the women who were assaulted that they really don't matter very much and it says to men that if they are really good at their jobs they can do whatever they want to young women.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If a politician has one or more credible and sufficiently grave accusations of sexual harassment or assault against them, even if they genuinely apologize and attempt to make amends, should voters of conscience refuse to vote for them?
Is sexual harassment and assault special in this regard, or does the same logic apply to any past crime and/or bad behaviour?
Sex crimes are clearly a hot topic at the moment, given the continuous series of accusations against and admissions by powerful people in the film and music business, the admitted behaviour of and language used by the current White House occupant, and so on. Perhaps actions that we take against well-known politicians, particularly politicians that we otherwise like, will help shift public opinion further against sexual misbehaviour and abuse.
So perhaps that makes prior sexual harassment different from a prior history of drunken property damage or drug use emerging, for example.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
at least Franken apologized.
And admitted he did it and that it was wrong.
As Christians we are familiar with the concept of repentance and forgiveness. There is a world of difference between it and the concept of denial and no shame.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Does the opposing candidate have to be just as atrocious in their personal actions to allow one to morally continue to support their own party's candidate when they face such accusations? Or can you get off the hook for supporting such a candidate of your own party if the other party's policies are atrocious enough, even if the other party's candidate does not have such accusation against them? And how atrocious do the policies of the other party have to be? With apologies for invoking Godwin's Law, does the other party basically need to have policies literally as bad as Hitler's (which Trump does not have at the moment, although he has been on his way there ever since his campaign) in order for it to be ok to support a sexual abuser in one's own party?
Every time we give a politician a pass on sexual harassment because of other political issues, we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues. We're saying it's okay that women suffer from sexual harassment, it's okay that women have to pay the emotional tax involved in avoiding the known creeps, and it's okay that women leave politics because they don't want to deal with this shit or have their careers damaged or ruined because they won't play ball.
The Democrats need to recruit and run candidates capable of keeping their hands to themselves. (Both parties need to do this, but I'm registered Democrat.) The OP posits this as an either/or thing, but Democrats should be able to run people with good progressive policies and no history of feeling up young staff members in elevators.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If a politician has one or more credible and sufficiently grave accusations of sexual harassment or assault against them, even if they genuinely apologize and attempt to make amends, should voters of conscience refuse to vote for them?
Is sexual harassment and assault special in this regard, or does the same logic apply to any past crime and/or bad behaviour?
Sex crimes are clearly a hot topic at the moment, given the continuous series of accusations against and admissions by powerful people in the film and music business, the admitted behaviour of and language used by the current White House occupant, and so on. Perhaps actions that we take against well-known politicians, particularly politicians that we otherwise like, will help shift public opinion further against sexual misbehaviour and abuse.
So perhaps that makes prior sexual harassment different from a prior history of drunken property damage or drug use emerging, for example.
Not perhaps, IMO - definitely. People have not at every level of society for all of recorded history been giving a pass to all men for drunken property damage or illicit drug use. The laws are of course applied unequally, so the richer and the whiter the man, the more likely he is to get off scot-free. But harassing women has pretty much always been okay.
Another big difference is that the relatively minor drug use that a politician might have indulged in and drunken property damage don't typically cause personal harm to others. Property damage can generally be repaired and paid for, and I don't really give a shit about a politician's alcohol or drug use provided they can do their job. But sexual harassment is damaging, sometimes very damaging. Sometimes just one bad incident derails a young woman's career. Sometimes it's the cumulative effect of multiple incidents amid a culture of harassment that prevents a woman from achieving what she might have otherwise been able to do.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There are men who strongly identify with their sister, mothers, spouses, daughters, girlfriends, friends who are women. The have empathy: the capacity to put themselves in the place of others and understand how they likely feel. Who are on the opposite end of the spectrum from all of this.
Before today, most folks would have used those words to describe Al Franken. And like Bill Clinton, he used his power to advance women's issues, so it comes as a shock. But such is the insidious nature of this kind of thing. Even guys who hold themselves out as allies and really try to be good guys have huge blind spots.
I don't know what Franken will do, but if he resigns, I would encourage the Governor of Minnesota to appoint a woman to his seat. More women in power, I think, will help shore up male blind spots in government (all male panels discussing health care, anyone?), and hopefully get us closer to being a society where young boys don't grow up with as many blind spots as we did. (I'll admit that one of my blind spots has been willingness to vote for women. I have never intentionally not voted for someone because she was female, but I would bet that I have a long record of voting for men rather than women, even in party primaries, when the difference between the candidates is minuscule. I'm committed to working on that.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
The problem is that this photo weakens Franken's (up to now fairly effective) questioning of Trump's mouthpieces. And note how Trump has responded - "The Al Frankenstien picture is really bad, speaks a thousand words. Where do his hands go in pictures 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 while she sleeps?"
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If that's... I dunno. The guy.. nope, sorry I can't even
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I was thinking this week (from a different context) that some of this stuff - particularly misogynistic comments online by people who should know better, unwanted touching, etc - is very childish. It is bad, no question. Men should be told to grow up.
To me there is a line between this and more serious assault.
But even that said, it is going to be tricky for Franken, and by extension any other politician anywhere who has been doing similar things even as a "joke", to remain in office and make comments about others.
I think he has pretty much got to go. How much more have the others (and let's at the moment just stick with those who have admitted to doing worse things) also got to go.
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arse
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Every time we give a politician a pass on sexual harassment because of other political issues, we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues. We're saying it's okay that women suffer from sexual harassment, it's okay that women have to pay the emotional tax involved in avoiding the known creeps, and it's okay that women leave politics because they don't want to deal with this shit or have their careers damaged or ruined because they won't play ball.
Ruth, please can you unpack this a bit more?
ISTM that there are countless worthy causes and important societal changes that need to happen. In an ideal world, none of them would ever be in conflict with each other. But we don't live in an ideal world.
All the time people those in power weigh one worthy cause against another.
You get tougher on crime; you risk more wrongful convictions and damaging poorer communities.
You crack down on benefit fraud; you risk genuine claims being rejected.
We all have a hierarchy of values. Where those different values lie within that hierarchy dictates what one's position on a certain issue might be.
So, while I totally agree with the first part of your paragraph ("we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues"), I'm not sure the rest of it follows (i.e. that we're saying we just don't care).
I understand stonespring's dilemma. (S)he's trying to decide which value is more important. Is the value of Universal Healthcare more or less important than the value of the treatment of women? In this one case? In every case?
I think it's easy to vilify someone else when they decide that Issue A is less important than Issue B, when we think the opposite. But I don't think we should fall into the trap of concluding that they don't care about Issue A at all. If there was a magic switch that would either end mistreatment of women or give universal healthcare to all, I honestly don't know which I'd choose.
There are people that just don't care about the marginalisation of women, but I think they're in the minority. I think there are a lot of men who haven't thought it through enough, and others who care, but perhaps hold other values higher in their moral hierarchy.
As for Al Franken, I know little about him, and have no dog in the fight. It seems a shame that he's apparently done a lot of good, but this is a pretty massive blot on that. I don't think he should be given a free pass. I hope there's space for reflection, repentance and forgiveness - but I have no window into his soul.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There was a discussion this morning about women in science (BBC R4's Today), and the difficulties they encounter pursuing STEM subjects, starting very young in school.
This thread, particularly RuthW's post* and that debate triggered memories of the continual sexual harassment and behaviours I remember from school and how difficult it made studying physics and chemistry at A level as one of two girls in the class for physics and three for chemistry. (Not helped by moving house and schools between GCSEs and A levels)
It has made me ponder how far-reaching this culture of sexualisation, genderisation and harassment is for both men and women.
* and the mention of bras being undone by Anselmina on a different thread
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
It never ceases to amaze me how often men in STEM seem to belittle women. A lot of the time it is fairly low level sniping, belittling, name-calling. But the weird thing is how regularly they do it in public settings - err hello, do you realise that other people can see you doing this?
It's a root-and-branch top-to-bottom problem.
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arse
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
"Locker room talk". But elected anyway. So maybe this guy can just say he was clowning around.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But the weird thing is how regularly they do it in public settings - err hello, do you realise that other people can see you doing this?
It's a root-and-branch top-to-bottom problem.
In fact, this public "jokey" behavior is often part of the point. It's a communication. To other guys, it's "See? I'm a member of the club." To other women, it's "See? You're fair game. Second-class, mere foils for us men, and fair game for whatever we're on about."
That Al Franken photo -- it's not just about where his hands are going. It's where his eyes are going. Someone took that photo, Al's mugging for him (dollars to donuts, it was a guy), and the joke was between the two of them.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
There was a discussion this morning about women in science (BBC R4's Today), and the difficulties they encounter pursuing STEM subjects, starting very young in school.
Eldest daughter is a Girl Scout. She has reported on several occasions being at Girl Scout camps, in the company of a random group of similar-aged Girl Scouts when the girls start discussing how much they hate Math, and how bad they are at it. When she said that actually, she quite enjoyed Math, the group of girls excluded her from their society for the rest of the camp. Apparently liking Math was socially beyond the pale, even when in a girl-only "safe space".
Don't underestimate the power of peer pressure in this discussion.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Keep encouraging her, LC. The world is in crying need of smart girls. It's true, the solution may well be more women in all positions of power. (Can we avoid the standard what-about pitfall, and concede that women too can be bad persons? Good.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Leorning Cniht, In the radio discussion this morning, one of the interviewees had blogged recently about her niece's experiences starting school and the questions that the niece was asking about the cars being put in the boys boxes, and why this should be so. The interviewer was highlighting that inculturation starts at the start of formal schooling, so by the time girls reach the age of Girl Scouts they have had years of this.
As an aside I lead a Girl Guide group and we take them to do all sorts of activities that are often seen as masculine - raft-building, wall-climbing, archery, gun shooting. We are currently trying to set up a team to take part in the Pedal Car Olympics at a Scout Camp in January.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Yes, I am very disappointed in Mr. Franken.
At least he has acknowledged it and apologized (the apology was accepted). He has even agreed to submit to an ethics review.
Should he resign? No. Pending a final decision of the ethics board, I think he needs to stay in office, though his cache is now considerably reduced--I do not see him even trying to run for president now.
He will likely be censured on the floor of the Senate--which is truly humbling and embarrassing, but I expect him to stand up like a man when it happens.
It will be up to the voters of Minnesota to determine his future. But, in the meantime, considering all the pending legislation. We need his vote.
The thing of it is, every one is both a saint and sinner. So, Franken has feet of clay? We all do in some way.
[ 17. November 2017, 16:26: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The thing of it is, every one is both a saint and sinner. So, Franken has feet of clay? We all do in some way.
The trouble is, that's exactly what the defenders of Roy Moore are saying and before that the defenders of Trump and his "locker room talk," were saying the same thing.
For me, anything involving underage victims, like Roy Moore's accusations, is far worse than Al Franken's stupid attempt at humor, but the fact remains that he both kissed and touched the woman without her consent and that's just not okay.
It's our duty as voters to try to elect men of good character. Saying, "Well we're none of us perfect, who am I to judge?" is shirking responsibility. My town had a pedophile on the school board for years while some people either knew or had heard rumors. Were they right to ignore that knowledge and decide not to judge him?
On a scale of ugly behavior, Al Franken's is no where near some of the recent allegations in the news and I would love to give him a pass on this, but I think I would be a hypocrite if I did.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Every time we give a politician a pass on sexual harassment because of other political issues, we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues. We're saying it's okay that women suffer from sexual harassment, it's okay that women have to pay the emotional tax involved in avoiding the known creeps, and it's okay that women leave politics because they don't want to deal with this shit or have their careers damaged or ruined because they won't play ball.
Ruth, please can you unpack this a bit more?
ISTM that there are countless worthy causes and important societal changes that need to happen. In an ideal world, none of them would ever be in conflict with each other. But we don't live in an ideal world.
<snip so this doesn't get too long>
So, while I totally agree with the first part of your paragraph ("we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues"), I'm not sure the rest of it follows (i.e. that we're saying we just don't care).
I didn't say "we just don't care." We acknowledge the issue, but we push it lower on the list again and again. It's an issue, but it's an issue that takes a back seat to other issues. I'm acknowledging that there is as you say a hierarchy of issues. I want this issue to move up to the top of the list instead of yet again being pushed down in favor of something that seems more pressing. I think that's precisely because this is predominantly an issue for women that dealing with it is perpetually being put off.
quote:
I think it's easy to vilify someone else when they decide that Issue A is less important than Issue B, when we think the opposite. But I don't think we should fall into the trap of concluding that they don't care about Issue A at all. If there was a magic switch that would either end mistreatment of women or give universal healthcare to all, I honestly don't know which I'd choose.
Good thing I didn't vilify anyone then!
You are, like the OP, seeing this as a duality -- we can have this or that, but not both. I would submit that if we stopped marginalizing women, the US would be closer to getting universal healthcare, because there would be a lot more women in politics, and women as a group care more about healthcare and vote more based on healthcare.
If we hadn't elected Bill Clinton, we would have given a second term to G.W.H. Bush. From my point of view, that wouldn't have been a whole lot worse than a Clinton presidency, given that Clinton was at best a centrist, and at worst a rapist and someone who also betrayed gay people his first week in office ("don't ask, don't tell") and gave us the hell of so-called "welfare reform," the effects of which we are still feeling today.
If Clinton had been elected but then forced out of office instead of weathering the storm of impeachment -- which he was able to do in large part because lefty feminists rallied around him -- we'd have had Al Gore as president, and Gore might have been in a better position to win the presidency in 2000. In which case we'd definitely have been better off, given how badly G.W. Bush botched the aftermath of 9/11.
So I simply don't buy that this is a binary choice, that we must again and again make a choice between dealing with serial sexual harassers in a serious way and other issues that progressives care about.
[ 17. November 2017, 20:02: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think he needs to resign. Full stop.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
quote:
The trouble is, that's exactly what the defenders of Roy Moore are saying and before that the defenders of Trump and his "locker room talk," were saying the same thing.
The big difference between Roy Moore, Donald Trump, and Al Franken is one of them has admitted to wrong-doing and apologized. The others have not.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think he needs to resign. Full stop.
I'm not sure about this. Franken's agreed to undergo an ethics investigation. Given that there's some chance there may also be an investigation into Alabama's newest senator going on too, it may be worthwhile to let those play out.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
AIUI, Franken welcomes the ethics investigation.
Will be interesting to see how that plays out. Will other Congressional sexual misconduct be raked up? And might that give Franken some immunity, given that many of the legislators may have done similar or worse things, and don't really want their own raked up?
And there's been some stirring in the Chandra Levy investigation. (She was a Congressional intern in...the 90s?...and was murdered. Reportedly in an affair with her boss, who was periodically looked at as a suspect.) It was briefly in the news in the last few months.
"Strange days, indeed."--John Lennon
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I didn't say "we just don't care." We acknowledge the issue, but we push it lower on the list again and again. It's an issue, but it's an issue that takes a back seat to other issues. I'm acknowledging that there is as you say a hierarchy of issues. I want this issue to move up to the top of the list instead of yet again being pushed down in favor of something that seems more pressing. I think that's precisely because this is predominantly an issue for women that dealing with it is perpetually being put off.
Thanks, Ruth. I don’t think we are very far apart then. I took your comment that “we’re saying it’s okay” as saying that people actually don’t care about the issues, but I understand it was hyperbole.*
I don’t see it as a binary choice, and I’d been thinking along similar lines with regards to what a positive knock-on difference it would make in the world if we did treat all people equally with regards to gender. I was more giving some sympathy to stonespring’s dilemma as to how we juggle all the different values we hold, especially when some seem to be in conflict.
* Ironically, this itself might have been down to a trend in how men and women use language. In Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, there was a list of how men can interpret some things some women might say. Eg. “We never go out” is taken literally, so a man might start listing the times we did go out, rather than realising that the hyperbole is simply stating a desire to go out. Although the book generalised a bit too much, on that part it was spot on - I just seem to had forgotten the message on this occasion.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Women speak in hyperbole and men don't get it because they don't talk that way? O. M. G. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Someday sexism will be just as socially unacceptable as racism. Till then, every time you want to make an unqualified assertion about women, replace "women" with minority group of your choice and ask yourself if you'd actually say that here.
[ 18. November 2017, 13:39: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Mmm. I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said. I initially took your post as saying to stonespring “you think it’s okay that women are treated badly”, and thought that was harsh. I get it more now, so thanks.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A friend who watches late-night TV reports:
"Radio host Leeann Tweeden came forward and said Sen. Al Franken groped her without her consent. And she posted a photo as evidence. In fact, it’s so bad Franken’s already a front runner for president in 2020." - Jimmy Fallon
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
From over here, I have to admit I don't know much about this story. Also for most of us, I'm fairly sure Mr Franken is an unknown name.
However, I've picked up quite a strong lead that this story might not be quite all that it seems, and could be a bit of a put up job. Apparently it's alleged now that the person, or one of them if there are more than one, may have a certain amount of 'form' and have links with supporters of the current president.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We must accept, from now on into the future, that any political campaign, any celebrity, any male person of note at all, will have someone accusing them of grossly sexist behavior. True or false, it'll be a standard weapon and tool from this point forward. We therefore do need to not only weigh the number and quality of the witnesses and evidence, but to look for Russians under every bedstead.
In the meantime angry satirists continue to have fun.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
* In Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, there was a list of how men can interpret some things some women might say.
My husband once stood in a Barnes and Nobles and read that entire book while I was browsing. It took me years, to get those generalizations out of his head.
What's more it happened right about the time I was getting him past the point of expecting me to be exactly like his eight cloned sisters. To this day he gets me flowers for gifts because, "girls love that." Thirty seven years of marriage and he hasn't heard my blasphemous mutterings as I drag out the vase, and now he's going deaf so there's really no hope.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
However, I've picked up quite a strong lead that this story might not be quite all that it seems, and could be a bit of a put up job. Apparently it's alleged now that the person, or one of them if there are more than one, may have a certain amount of 'form' and have links with supporters of the current president.
Yes, she may have, but there's no denying the photo as truth that Franken momentarily put his hands on her chest her while she slept.
However, I would like to ask her about her cover photo for "Playboy." I would ask her who she thinks has exploited more young women, Al Franken who seems to have no other accusers or Hugh Hefner, our nations wealthiest pimp?
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
* In Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, there was a list of how men can interpret some things some women might say.
My husband once stood in a Barnes and Nobles and read that entire book while I was browsing. It took me years, to get those generalizations out of his head.
What's more it happened right about the time I was getting him past the point of expecting me to be exactly like his eight cloned sisters. To this day he gets me flowers for gifts because, "girls love that." Thirty seven years of marriage and he hasn't heard my blasphemous mutterings as I drag out the vase, and now he's going deaf so there's really no hope.
Twilight: ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Doesn't US law have a Statute of Limitations ? Whereby small crimes are forgiven and forgotten sooner than big crimes ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Women speak in hyperbole and men don't get it because they don't talk that way? O. M. G.
Someday sexism will be just as socially unacceptable as racism. Till then, every time you want to make an unqualified assertion about women, replace "women" with minority group of your choice and ask yourself if you'd actually say that here.
Serious question though - what about when the hyperbolic message is a call for genocide?
Can get a little frightening then... and how can the general public tell if something is hyperbole or literally meant?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Women speak in hyperbole and men don't get it because they don't talk that way? O. M. G.
Someday sexism will be just as socially unacceptable as racism. Till then, every time you want to make an unqualified assertion about women, replace "women" with minority group of your choice and ask yourself if you'd actually say that here.
Serious question though - what about when the hyperbolic message is a call for genocide?
Can get a little frightening then... and how can the general public tell if something is hyperbole or literally meant?
See? Proof positive that men can do hyperbole too!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
My husband once stood in a Barnes and Nobles and read that entire book while I was browsing. It took me years, to get those generalizations out of his head.
Well, yeah, as I said, the book generalized way too much. I think it would have been presented better as exploring different personality types, rather than gender differences - even if there are some general trends that it describes. I considered myself Venusian rather than Martian in quite a number of chapters. But, yeah, I found that one chapter useful to understand myself. I tend to read very literally - sometimes to my detriment - evidently as I did above. I appreciate the insight that chapter gave.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I tend to read very literally - sometimes to my detriment - evidently as I did above. I appreciate the insight that chapter gave.
Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to say I thought the book was worthless. I think my husband found some insight to himself and I did appreciate that he was trying to understand me better. I think maybe I'm from Pluto though so it didn't work for us.
A round of applause for all the men we know who don't assault women, make lewd comments, grope their body parts or hit on 14 year olds. I shouldn't be complaining!
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
ATTENTION: Women of Alabama (especially those assaulted by Roy Moore): Now Hear This:
PLEASE stop using the term "flirtatious" in describing your assailant's actions.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Well, Well, Well. Turns out some Alabama Evangelicals are rejecting Roy Moore, saying he has a false religious virus. Finally, people are waking up!
[ 19. November 2017, 02:24: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Quoting an American friend:
"If Franken has to resign over what he's done, Trump should set himself on fire."
Which doesn't excuse anyone's behaviour but does make a point.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
I confess I've been waiting to see if a whole crowd of women now come forward to accuse Franken. So far, so good.
I'm not excusing Franken, but his actions are just not on any par at all with Trump's or Moore's.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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