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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The current scandals and my political dilemma
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Every time we give a politician a pass on sexual harassment because of other political issues, we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues. We're saying it's okay that women suffer from sexual harassment, it's okay that women have to pay the emotional tax involved in avoiding the known creeps, and it's okay that women leave politics because they don't want to deal with this shit or have their careers damaged or ruined because they won't play ball.
Ruth, please can you unpack this a bit more?
ISTM that there are countless worthy causes and important societal changes that need to happen. In an ideal world, none of them would ever be in conflict with each other. But we don't live in an ideal world.
All the time people those in power weigh one worthy cause against another.
You get tougher on crime; you risk more wrongful convictions and damaging poorer communities.
You crack down on benefit fraud; you risk genuine claims being rejected.
We all have a hierarchy of values. Where those different values lie within that hierarchy dictates what one's position on a certain issue might be.
So, while I totally agree with the first part of your paragraph ("we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues"), I'm not sure the rest of it follows (i.e. that we're saying we just don't care).
I understand stonespring's dilemma. (S)he's trying to decide which value is more important. Is the value of Universal Healthcare more or less important than the value of the treatment of women? In this one case? In every case?
I think it's easy to vilify someone else when they decide that Issue A is less important than Issue B, when we think the opposite. But I don't think we should fall into the trap of concluding that they don't care about Issue A at all. If there was a magic switch that would either end mistreatment of women or give universal healthcare to all, I honestly don't know which I'd choose.
There are people that just don't care about the marginalisation of women, but I think they're in the minority. I think there are a lot of men who haven't thought it through enough, and others who care, but perhaps hold other values higher in their moral hierarchy.
As for Al Franken, I know little about him, and have no dog in the fight. It seems a shame that he's apparently done a lot of good, but this is a pretty massive blot on that. I don't think he should be given a free pass. I hope there's space for reflection, repentance and forgiveness - but I have no window into his soul.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There was a discussion this morning about women in science (BBC R4's Today), and the difficulties they encounter pursuing STEM subjects, starting very young in school.
This thread, particularly RuthW's post* and that debate triggered memories of the continual sexual harassment and behaviours I remember from school and how difficult it made studying physics and chemistry at A level as one of two girls in the class for physics and three for chemistry. (Not helped by moving house and schools between GCSEs and A levels)
It has made me ponder how far-reaching this culture of sexualisation, genderisation and harassment is for both men and women.
* and the mention of bras being undone by Anselmina on a different thread
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
It never ceases to amaze me how often men in STEM seem to belittle women. A lot of the time it is fairly low level sniping, belittling, name-calling. But the weird thing is how regularly they do it in public settings - err hello, do you realise that other people can see you doing this?
It's a root-and-branch top-to-bottom problem.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
"Locker room talk". But elected anyway. So maybe this guy can just say he was clowning around.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But the weird thing is how regularly they do it in public settings - err hello, do you realise that other people can see you doing this?
It's a root-and-branch top-to-bottom problem.
In fact, this public "jokey" behavior is often part of the point. It's a communication. To other guys, it's "See? I'm a member of the club." To other women, it's "See? You're fair game. Second-class, mere foils for us men, and fair game for whatever we're on about."
That Al Franken photo -- it's not just about where his hands are going. It's where his eyes are going. Someone took that photo, Al's mugging for him (dollars to donuts, it was a guy), and the joke was between the two of them.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
There was a discussion this morning about women in science (BBC R4's Today), and the difficulties they encounter pursuing STEM subjects, starting very young in school.
Eldest daughter is a Girl Scout. She has reported on several occasions being at Girl Scout camps, in the company of a random group of similar-aged Girl Scouts when the girls start discussing how much they hate Math, and how bad they are at it. When she said that actually, she quite enjoyed Math, the group of girls excluded her from their society for the rest of the camp. Apparently liking Math was socially beyond the pale, even when in a girl-only "safe space".
Don't underestimate the power of peer pressure in this discussion.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Keep encouraging her, LC. The world is in crying need of smart girls. It's true, the solution may well be more women in all positions of power. (Can we avoid the standard what-about pitfall, and concede that women too can be bad persons? Good.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Leorning Cniht, In the radio discussion this morning, one of the interviewees had blogged recently about her niece's experiences starting school and the questions that the niece was asking about the cars being put in the boys boxes, and why this should be so. The interviewer was highlighting that inculturation starts at the start of formal schooling, so by the time girls reach the age of Girl Scouts they have had years of this.
As an aside I lead a Girl Guide group and we take them to do all sorts of activities that are often seen as masculine - raft-building, wall-climbing, archery, gun shooting. We are currently trying to set up a team to take part in the Pedal Car Olympics at a Scout Camp in January.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Yes, I am very disappointed in Mr. Franken.
At least he has acknowledged it and apologized (the apology was accepted). He has even agreed to submit to an ethics review.
Should he resign? No. Pending a final decision of the ethics board, I think he needs to stay in office, though his cache is now considerably reduced--I do not see him even trying to run for president now.
He will likely be censured on the floor of the Senate--which is truly humbling and embarrassing, but I expect him to stand up like a man when it happens.
It will be up to the voters of Minnesota to determine his future. But, in the meantime, considering all the pending legislation. We need his vote.
The thing of it is, every one is both a saint and sinner. So, Franken has feet of clay? We all do in some way.
[ 17. November 2017, 16:26: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The thing of it is, every one is both a saint and sinner. So, Franken has feet of clay? We all do in some way.
The trouble is, that's exactly what the defenders of Roy Moore are saying and before that the defenders of Trump and his "locker room talk," were saying the same thing.
For me, anything involving underage victims, like Roy Moore's accusations, is far worse than Al Franken's stupid attempt at humor, but the fact remains that he both kissed and touched the woman without her consent and that's just not okay.
It's our duty as voters to try to elect men of good character. Saying, "Well we're none of us perfect, who am I to judge?" is shirking responsibility. My town had a pedophile on the school board for years while some people either knew or had heard rumors. Were they right to ignore that knowledge and decide not to judge him?
On a scale of ugly behavior, Al Franken's is no where near some of the recent allegations in the news and I would love to give him a pass on this, but I think I would be a hypocrite if I did.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Every time we give a politician a pass on sexual harassment because of other political issues, we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues. We're saying it's okay that women suffer from sexual harassment, it's okay that women have to pay the emotional tax involved in avoiding the known creeps, and it's okay that women leave politics because they don't want to deal with this shit or have their careers damaged or ruined because they won't play ball.
Ruth, please can you unpack this a bit more?
ISTM that there are countless worthy causes and important societal changes that need to happen. In an ideal world, none of them would ever be in conflict with each other. But we don't live in an ideal world.
<snip so this doesn't get too long>
So, while I totally agree with the first part of your paragraph ("we're saying that the marginalization of women in the public sphere is less important than those other issues"), I'm not sure the rest of it follows (i.e. that we're saying we just don't care).
I didn't say "we just don't care." We acknowledge the issue, but we push it lower on the list again and again. It's an issue, but it's an issue that takes a back seat to other issues. I'm acknowledging that there is as you say a hierarchy of issues. I want this issue to move up to the top of the list instead of yet again being pushed down in favor of something that seems more pressing. I think that's precisely because this is predominantly an issue for women that dealing with it is perpetually being put off.
quote:
I think it's easy to vilify someone else when they decide that Issue A is less important than Issue B, when we think the opposite. But I don't think we should fall into the trap of concluding that they don't care about Issue A at all. If there was a magic switch that would either end mistreatment of women or give universal healthcare to all, I honestly don't know which I'd choose.
Good thing I didn't vilify anyone then!
You are, like the OP, seeing this as a duality -- we can have this or that, but not both. I would submit that if we stopped marginalizing women, the US would be closer to getting universal healthcare, because there would be a lot more women in politics, and women as a group care more about healthcare and vote more based on healthcare.
If we hadn't elected Bill Clinton, we would have given a second term to G.W.H. Bush. From my point of view, that wouldn't have been a whole lot worse than a Clinton presidency, given that Clinton was at best a centrist, and at worst a rapist and someone who also betrayed gay people his first week in office ("don't ask, don't tell") and gave us the hell of so-called "welfare reform," the effects of which we are still feeling today.
If Clinton had been elected but then forced out of office instead of weathering the storm of impeachment -- which he was able to do in large part because lefty feminists rallied around him -- we'd have had Al Gore as president, and Gore might have been in a better position to win the presidency in 2000. In which case we'd definitely have been better off, given how badly G.W. Bush botched the aftermath of 9/11.
So I simply don't buy that this is a binary choice, that we must again and again make a choice between dealing with serial sexual harassers in a serious way and other issues that progressives care about.
[ 17. November 2017, 20:02: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think he needs to resign. Full stop.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
quote:
The trouble is, that's exactly what the defenders of Roy Moore are saying and before that the defenders of Trump and his "locker room talk," were saying the same thing.
The big difference between Roy Moore, Donald Trump, and Al Franken is one of them has admitted to wrong-doing and apologized. The others have not.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think he needs to resign. Full stop.
I'm not sure about this. Franken's agreed to undergo an ethics investigation. Given that there's some chance there may also be an investigation into Alabama's newest senator going on too, it may be worthwhile to let those play out.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
AIUI, Franken welcomes the ethics investigation.
Will be interesting to see how that plays out. Will other Congressional sexual misconduct be raked up? And might that give Franken some immunity, given that many of the legislators may have done similar or worse things, and don't really want their own raked up?
And there's been some stirring in the Chandra Levy investigation. (She was a Congressional intern in...the 90s?...and was murdered. Reportedly in an affair with her boss, who was periodically looked at as a suspect.) It was briefly in the news in the last few months.
"Strange days, indeed."--John Lennon
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I didn't say "we just don't care." We acknowledge the issue, but we push it lower on the list again and again. It's an issue, but it's an issue that takes a back seat to other issues. I'm acknowledging that there is as you say a hierarchy of issues. I want this issue to move up to the top of the list instead of yet again being pushed down in favor of something that seems more pressing. I think that's precisely because this is predominantly an issue for women that dealing with it is perpetually being put off.
Thanks, Ruth. I don’t think we are very far apart then. I took your comment that “we’re saying it’s okay” as saying that people actually don’t care about the issues, but I understand it was hyperbole.*
I don’t see it as a binary choice, and I’d been thinking along similar lines with regards to what a positive knock-on difference it would make in the world if we did treat all people equally with regards to gender. I was more giving some sympathy to stonespring’s dilemma as to how we juggle all the different values we hold, especially when some seem to be in conflict.
* Ironically, this itself might have been down to a trend in how men and women use language. In Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, there was a list of how men can interpret some things some women might say. Eg. “We never go out” is taken literally, so a man might start listing the times we did go out, rather than realising that the hyperbole is simply stating a desire to go out. Although the book generalised a bit too much, on that part it was spot on - I just seem to had forgotten the message on this occasion.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Women speak in hyperbole and men don't get it because they don't talk that way? O. M. G. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Someday sexism will be just as socially unacceptable as racism. Till then, every time you want to make an unqualified assertion about women, replace "women" with minority group of your choice and ask yourself if you'd actually say that here.
[ 18. November 2017, 13:39: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Mmm. I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said. I initially took your post as saying to stonespring “you think it’s okay that women are treated badly”, and thought that was harsh. I get it more now, so thanks.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A friend who watches late-night TV reports:
"Radio host Leeann Tweeden came forward and said Sen. Al Franken groped her without her consent. And she posted a photo as evidence. In fact, it’s so bad Franken’s already a front runner for president in 2020." - Jimmy Fallon
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
From over here, I have to admit I don't know much about this story. Also for most of us, I'm fairly sure Mr Franken is an unknown name.
However, I've picked up quite a strong lead that this story might not be quite all that it seems, and could be a bit of a put up job. Apparently it's alleged now that the person, or one of them if there are more than one, may have a certain amount of 'form' and have links with supporters of the current president.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We must accept, from now on into the future, that any political campaign, any celebrity, any male person of note at all, will have someone accusing them of grossly sexist behavior. True or false, it'll be a standard weapon and tool from this point forward. We therefore do need to not only weigh the number and quality of the witnesses and evidence, but to look for Russians under every bedstead.
In the meantime angry satirists continue to have fun.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
* In Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, there was a list of how men can interpret some things some women might say.
My husband once stood in a Barnes and Nobles and read that entire book while I was browsing. It took me years, to get those generalizations out of his head.
What's more it happened right about the time I was getting him past the point of expecting me to be exactly like his eight cloned sisters. To this day he gets me flowers for gifts because, "girls love that." Thirty seven years of marriage and he hasn't heard my blasphemous mutterings as I drag out the vase, and now he's going deaf so there's really no hope.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
However, I've picked up quite a strong lead that this story might not be quite all that it seems, and could be a bit of a put up job. Apparently it's alleged now that the person, or one of them if there are more than one, may have a certain amount of 'form' and have links with supporters of the current president.
Yes, she may have, but there's no denying the photo as truth that Franken momentarily put his hands on her chest her while she slept.
However, I would like to ask her about her cover photo for "Playboy." I would ask her who she thinks has exploited more young women, Al Franken who seems to have no other accusers or Hugh Hefner, our nations wealthiest pimp?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
* In Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, there was a list of how men can interpret some things some women might say.
My husband once stood in a Barnes and Nobles and read that entire book while I was browsing. It took me years, to get those generalizations out of his head.
What's more it happened right about the time I was getting him past the point of expecting me to be exactly like his eight cloned sisters. To this day he gets me flowers for gifts because, "girls love that." Thirty seven years of marriage and he hasn't heard my blasphemous mutterings as I drag out the vase, and now he's going deaf so there's really no hope.
Twilight: ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Doesn't US law have a Statute of Limitations ? Whereby small crimes are forgiven and forgotten sooner than big crimes ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Women speak in hyperbole and men don't get it because they don't talk that way? O. M. G.
Someday sexism will be just as socially unacceptable as racism. Till then, every time you want to make an unqualified assertion about women, replace "women" with minority group of your choice and ask yourself if you'd actually say that here.
Serious question though - what about when the hyperbolic message is a call for genocide?
Can get a little frightening then... and how can the general public tell if something is hyperbole or literally meant?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Women speak in hyperbole and men don't get it because they don't talk that way? O. M. G.
Someday sexism will be just as socially unacceptable as racism. Till then, every time you want to make an unqualified assertion about women, replace "women" with minority group of your choice and ask yourself if you'd actually say that here.
Serious question though - what about when the hyperbolic message is a call for genocide?
Can get a little frightening then... and how can the general public tell if something is hyperbole or literally meant?
See? Proof positive that men can do hyperbole too!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
My husband once stood in a Barnes and Nobles and read that entire book while I was browsing. It took me years, to get those generalizations out of his head.
Well, yeah, as I said, the book generalized way too much. I think it would have been presented better as exploring different personality types, rather than gender differences - even if there are some general trends that it describes. I considered myself Venusian rather than Martian in quite a number of chapters. But, yeah, I found that one chapter useful to understand myself. I tend to read very literally - sometimes to my detriment - evidently as I did above. I appreciate the insight that chapter gave.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I tend to read very literally - sometimes to my detriment - evidently as I did above. I appreciate the insight that chapter gave.
Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to say I thought the book was worthless. I think my husband found some insight to himself and I did appreciate that he was trying to understand me better. I think maybe I'm from Pluto though so it didn't work for us.
A round of applause for all the men we know who don't assault women, make lewd comments, grope their body parts or hit on 14 year olds. I shouldn't be complaining!
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
ATTENTION: Women of Alabama (especially those assaulted by Roy Moore): Now Hear This:
PLEASE stop using the term "flirtatious" in describing your assailant's actions.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Well, Well, Well. Turns out some Alabama Evangelicals are rejecting Roy Moore, saying he has a false religious virus. Finally, people are waking up!
[ 19. November 2017, 02:24: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Quoting an American friend:
"If Franken has to resign over what he's done, Trump should set himself on fire."
Which doesn't excuse anyone's behaviour but does make a point.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
I confess I've been waiting to see if a whole crowd of women now come forward to accuse Franken. So far, so good.
I'm not excusing Franken, but his actions are just not on any par at all with Trump's or Moore's.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Oh, crap.
Apparently I should have waited longer.
Politics is compromise and good people do bad things. However, if this latest is true, there is no excuse for him or any good reason to continue supporting him. I think Franken as good as admitted the validity of the claim. He says he does not remember the encounter, but does not deny the possibility. If I were accused of grabbing an unwilling persons arse, I could honestly call it an untruth as I have never done it. I would not have to remember every specific possible opportunity to have done.
This could be a poor choice of words on his part, but one would think he is choosing carefully at this point.
I do not think that politicians should be given a pass for this behaviour simply because they might support one’s overall politics.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I think the right political choice now is for Congressional Democrats to tell Franken he's got to resign. They will lose hope of gaining the moral high ground on the issue for another decade if they don't. The governor of Minnesota will appoint a Democrat and the Dems won't lose a Senate seat.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
Yeah, Franken's toast.
Is there some rising Minnesota Democratic star to take over? And is she female?
Ruth Bader Ginsburg is right: there will be enough women on the US Supreme Court when we hit 9.
Looks like we'd better start electing lots of women to the House and the Senate, too.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I admit I question this latest Franken at the fair account more than the previous one.
It's so bizarre! AIUI, he (a senator) is meeting with constituents at a fair; a man takes a pic of his wife posing with F; her butt is allegedly groped by F; and she tells her husband and her mom.
This happened in public.
Seriously?
If F did that, he'd have to have no self-control and no sense of self-preservation.
Is it possible that he put his arm around her for the pic, and didn't realize exactly where his hand was??
Maybe it's true. I just find it hard to believe.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Is it possible that he put his arm around her for the pic, and didn't realize exactly where his hand was??
Is it possible? He thought he had his hand of her waist / hip, but was actually cupping her arse? I suppose it's possible. It doesn't seem very likely, but one of the features of statistics is that if you do something (like pose for photos with people) many many times, then some moderately unlikely things will happen.
In my experience, however, when you inadvertently touch something you shouldn't, you move your hand and apologize.
[ 20. November 2017, 22:31: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yeah, I was just thinking that if he was distracted (which happens all the time at a fair), overwhelmed by constituents, etc., he might have quickly put his arm around her mid-section without much thought or awareness. Sloppily.
I'm not saying that's what happened. Just that I have a hard time believing the account, as I mentioned. The woman may absolutely be telling the truth.
Whatever happened, it would be much wiser to just not touch the person *period*.
(Doesn't help that the PBS Newshour is reporting allegations against journalist Charlie Rose. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
[ 20. November 2017, 22:48: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Good Lord, who's next? We could almost make a Circus game out of it. Sort of like Clue: "Celebrity X with a former beauty queen backstage at the Ed Sullivan Theater."
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I admit I question this latest Franken at the fair account more than the previous one.
It's so bizarre! AIUI, he (a senator) is meeting with constituents at a fair; a man takes a pic of his wife posing with F; her butt is allegedly groped by F; and she tells her husband and her mom.
This happened in public.
Seriously?
Slate had an article last month on how predators take advantage of photo ops to assault women, which may lower your opinion of Elie Wiesel and teach you not to mess with Taylor Swift.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And George HW Bush. Though I heard a suggestion that *his* behavior may be due to his Parkinson's, which can cause a loss of sexual inhibitions.
Thx for the link.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And George HW Bush. Though I heard a suggestion that *his* behavior may be due to his Parkinson's, which can cause a loss of sexual inhibitions.
Thx for the link.
I had heard the same, but the most recent allegation dates from 1992.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yuck.
Ok, don't be in a pic with anyone unless you're 5 feet apart.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
People like Al Franken are good at being the front people - the ones everyone looks at because they have the seat. He strikes me as a smart fellow though, and why wouldn't he be equally suited to an advisory role or other behind-the-scenes position where he could make an equally valuable contribution to the causes he now fights for as a senator? I don't know him by the way, other than as a politician.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
simontoad--
I don't know what Franken should do, or what should be done about him. (BTW, previously he was a comedian on the beloved, edgy, and long-running "Saturday Night Live" (SNL).)
If he leaves the Senate, that would make the place look more...virtuous. (Yeah, right, given all the other stuff that goes on there.) If he were to take a behind-the-scenes position, there would still be the possibility that he would abuse someone else.
What to do with the men who are falling down? If the people they hurt choose to take them to court, well and good. Probably most won't, unless there are class actions against a specific person, like Weinstein. So, if things continue as they have been, there will be a lot of powerful, abusive men out of work.
Many/most are probably wealthy enough to support themselves with what wealth/assets they've got--if not necessarily in the style to which they've been accustomed. If there are no legal procedures, there's not really anything to keep them from going on to another job, and pulling the same crap. Unless binding mediation or something. With mandatory therapy (verified) for the rest of their lives.
Sorry this is wandering. I'm not sure what to do about any of this. I want it to go away; and I want it all to thoroughly play out and be cleaned out; and there will be a lot of backlash, and anti-backlash, and I'm not looking forward to that.
It took me a lot of time and hard work to get to the point of not feeling terrified when out, or in my building (there were problems). That's getting stirred up again, and I'm not happy about it.
Please, no one tell me there's nothing to worry about, or I'm making too much of it. The terror is rooted in many actual experiences of mine. Plus the bad stuff that happens to women all the time. And the bad stuff that happens to people in general, all the time.
Blech.
Working on regaining some mellowness. (Via chocolate, pizza, books, music...)
Oy vey.
[ 21. November 2017, 06:43: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Your reaction is why these things cannot be taken lightly (any more). Real damage is caused; real victims have a genuine complaint. A friend of mine has me-too'd, noting that being a rape victim when she was 21 forced her to give up her Rhodes Scholarship and drop out of her PhD program, not to mention years of psychological difficulty that have crippled her.
But we must be ever aware that the Russians are out there, probably with files and files of fake claims ready to pony out at any likely moment.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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