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Originally posted by Wildcat45:
Hi,

I've been in my church a year now and I am getting interested in how stuff works.

By attending am I on the electoral roll? Does this give me the opportunity to vote on stuff? If so, what?

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• new hymn books or changing worship,
• signing the clauses that mean no women priests can preside.
• finances;
• receives the quinquennial inspection and plans the repairs required

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
and then the Church Commissioners acting on behalf of the Government.

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The degree of difficulty I have getting my head round this concept makes me realise just how un-British I am.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
and then the Church Commissioners acting on behalf of the Government.

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The degree of difficulty I have getting my head round this concept makes me realise just how un-British I am.

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As opposed to a country where historic churches are owned by the state, and getting repairs done requires a petition to the mairie?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
[QB] What about property ownership and rights? That tends to be where semblances of congregationalism often founder in many contexts, in my experience: the congregation suddenly realise they do not own the facility they invest in (in both tangible and intangible ways).

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Originally posted by Eutychus:


The degree of difficulty I have getting my head round this concept makes me realise just how un-British I am.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
My observation is that wardens have a lot more legal rights and responsibilities than most people appreciate.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's just one of the things this discussion has made me aware of, and got me wondering about how different it is from the RC (and incidentally what unexpected surprises people leaving the CoE over DH issues to join the RCs might encounter).

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
My observation is that wardens have a lot more legal rights and responsibilities than most people appreciate.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: True, although in congregationalist set-ups (eg Baptist) Deacons/Elders are de facto "managing charity trustees" and are bound by that set of laws and requirements (unless the church isn't a charity, but most are).

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: True, although in congregationalist set-ups (eg Baptist) Deacons/Elders are de facto "managing charity trustees" and are bound by that set of laws and requirements (unless the church isn't a charity, but most are).

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Yes. The difference is that "churchwarden" is a specific role in law whereas the equivalent in every other religious group is because they are "trustees", which obviously also applies to many other charitable roles outside of religious setups.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The URC may be more tightly bound as it is subject to the provision of three specific Acts of Parliament from 1972 onwards.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Interestingly I believe that it is Elders (and not Ministers) who are responsible for the (?correct) maintenance of public worship.

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From the URC Manual Section B
2.(2) Elders Meeting
The elders' meeting of the Local Church shall consist of the minister(s) and the elders elected by the Church Meeting of such Local Church and shall exercise oversight of the spiritual life of the Local Church. The elders’ meeting shall serve the Local Church and by its relation to the wider councils of the United Reformed Church represent the whole Church to the Local Church. The minister, or one of the ministers, or during a pastoral vacancy the Interim Moderator appointed as hereinafter provided, shall normally preside over the elders’ meeting.

Functions:
...

(ii) to see that public worship is regularly offered and the sacraments are duly administered, and generally to promote the welfare of the congregation;
(iii)
to ensure pastoral care of the congregation, in which the minister is joined by elders having particular responsibility for groups of members;
...
(v) to arrange for pulpit supply in a vacancy;
...

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
The question is trustees of what: again, I think there are many potential pitfalls around who actually owns the real estate.

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Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
In contrast, I get the impression that a "parish" for Catholics and for Episcopalians outside of England (and Wales) is actually just a congregation - those who gather at the particular building.

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Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:


The role of church warden in an ancient one. I have heard that it is the oldest office elected by a general suffrage. This stems from the responsibility of the Parish to provide for the poor. This was done by raising a 'rate' (a tax) which was set by the church wardens. This ended in the nineteenth century with the Poor Laws. (I think the splitting of the Parish Council as the lowest level of local government and the Parochial Church Council occurred later). However, the electorate for the wardens remains. Now, I understand, that it is the union of those on the electoral roll and those living in the parish who are entitled to vote in local government elections.

It is my understanding that the church wardens are officers of the bishop. When you are elected you have to make a declaration that you will discharge your duties well. This is made to a diocesan law officer (wearing a wig). This happens at an "Archdeacon's Visitation" (here in London, you visit the archdeacon), and you also receive "the archdeacons charge" - a talk that always seem to come down to money, in my experience.

Although church buildings are owned by the Church, the parish owns movable stuff, like hymn books and hassocks. The church wardens are responsible for these. You are supposed to have something called a 'terrier' (not a dog) which lists them all, and the archdeacon, or a representative, is supposed to check them on a three-yearly basis.

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Indeed. Last April I came to the end of my 6-year tenure as warden (at the APCM) and the new warden-elect (we have two) was formally appointed at the Visitation in June. It was impressed upon me when first elected that we were 'bishop's officers' and had quite a lot of legal rights and responsibilities. One of mine was a seemingly endless battle with Thames Water over whose responsibility was the pipework leading from our church basement to underneath the middle of the road...

I did go through the 'terrier' etc one year with my fellow warden, and checked all the silver and so on, and got involved in all sorts of things to do with the fabric of the church buildings.

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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde

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Originally posted by Enoch:
As everyone has already said, except that although in theory there is a Vicar's Warden and a Peoples' Warden, everywhere I've been in the last 40+ years, both wardens have been elected.

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
As everyone has already said, except that although in theory there is a Vicar's Warden and a Peoples' Warden, everywhere I've been in the last 40+ years, both wardens have been elected.

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Yes - because the law changed and vicars can no longer choose a warden unless the APCM allow him/her.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
As has been stated above, technically anyone resident in a parish can not only attend an APCM but also vote for churchwarden nominees - even if they (the voter) has no belief whatsoever.

Taking it still further, a churchwarden can be elected (and in my immediate knowledge has been elected) by a pressure group in the parish. The individual concerned stood against a returning candidate and packed the meeting with supporters.

Seems an anomaly that the government of a local church can be undertaken by someone who doesn't subscribe to its core beliefs.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

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Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
In contrast, I get the impression that a "parish" for Catholics and for Episcopalians outside of England (and Wales) is actually just a congregation - those who gather at the particular building.

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That's true of Episcopal parishes in these parts. Catholic parishes, as I understand it, are territorial, but there is no obligation to attend the church of the parish where one resides, and many many Catholics around here are registered with the church of a parish where they don’t live. So parish doesn’t necessarily have a territorial connotation here, particularly for Episcopalians. (Presbyterians occasionally use the term too.)

But I don't think many would describe “parish” as “those who gather at the particular building." Rather, I think they’d describe it as “those who belong to a particular community."

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Here in the Episcopal Church in the US (at least, in the areas I've lived, in Michigan and California), that's definitely true - a "parish" is essentially a "congregation," defined as those who more or less "belong." What that means depends on context. If you're talking about who can vote, that would be regular communicants on the membership roll, i.e., those who have been received in the parish through baptism, confirmation, reception, or letter of transfer, who are still receiving Communion in the church something rather lax like 2 or 4 times per year. (We just went through this, as we held a "meeting of the congregation" to approve of selling a little property.) But in a less formal sense, "belonging" just means you attend and are involved in some way. Some churches focus on pledges; others just go by seeing you in church most Sundays.

The term "parish church" is often used in contrast with a "cathedral church," but some cathedrals have parish congregations and some don't. It confuses me, to be sure.

It's interesting to me to read this thread, as an American Episcopalian. I'm just finishing a year as Senior Warden, after a year as Junior Warden, and while these roles do have very specific responsibilities in church law, most of it really only has to do with times when the priest in charge isn't available (i.e., sick, or interregnum). I haven't had to do much at all, although I'll be giving a report at the annual meeting later this month.

As for terminology, I know that in some places in the US, the wardens are called Dean's/Priest's/Rector's Warden and People's Warden, although the most common language is Senior and Junior, or just Wardens.

One Presbyterian I know who serves on her church's version of a Vestry (our version of PCC I suspect) was surprised at our terminology: "It sounds like a prison!"

I'm curious about some of that terminology. Is the term "vestry" used in England? If so, is it a fiduciary or governing body, or a room you vest in? (Here, it can be both; but usually the room is just called a sacristy, even if it's separate from the sacristy with the piscina in it.)

[ 02. January 2018, 02:22: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Originally posted by Gee D:
If only the disadvantages of establishment were balanced by an advantage of the costs of keeping open a large number of beautiful and historic churches with an almost vanished congregation.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:


My last church (non-CofE) was a fine chapel, Grade II listed, which not only cost us an arm and a leg to maintain but was unsuitable for our needs. We couldn't knock it down (nor did we want to see it go); more to the point,we couldn't sell it and build anew elsewhere, as the listing imposed similar conditions on any prospective purchasers, making it valueless.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
All PCC members are trustees too if the church is registered as a charity.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: True, although in congregationalist set-ups (eg Baptist) Deacons/Elders are de facto "managing charity trustees" and are bound by that set of laws and requirements (unless the church isn't a charity, but most are).

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Yes. The difference is that "churchwarden" is a specific role in law whereas the equivalent in every other religious group is because they are "trustees", which obviously also applies to many other charitable roles outside of religious setups.

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You're right of course - it's just that many folk don't realise that they're trustees. The URC may be more tightly bound as it is subject to the provision of three specific Acts of Parliament from 1972 onwards. Interestingly I believe that it is Elders (and not Ministers) who are responsible for the (?correct) maintenance of public worship.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
One wonders what would happen if the church just walked away from the building. If English Heritage really wanted to preserve it, I suppose they'd have to pay for it.

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Originally posted by betjemaniac:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
If only the disadvantages of establishment were balanced by an advantage of the costs of keeping open a large number of beautiful and historic churches with an almost vanished congregation.

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Well quite. If only.... Because it isn't. Not sure whether you knew that or not though?

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