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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What is Heaven like?
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Do you have a personal vision or expectation about Heaven?
Some people have come up with descriptions of Heaven which sound exquisitely boring, and others sound much more attractive. I can recall a couple of good ones from television shows:
In the "Buffy" series, Buffy dies at some point and is later revived by her good friends (who were sure, in view of her career, that she was languishing in Hell). She was by no means happy about being alive again, and she told us why:
"Wherever I was, I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time didn't mean anything, nothing had form, but I was still me, you know? And I was warm and I was loved and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or any of it really. But I think I was in heaven."
In the "WKRP" series, there was an episode in which a DJ, Johnny Fever, talked to an old (dying) lady in a hospital. He described his notion of heaven, an endless jam session of all the greatest musicians of history.
There is, of course, no reason why Heaven should be the same for everyone.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Heaven is something like a literary convention. There is a vast room with all the books you have never been able to find, interlarded with all the old favorites. There are sofas and lounge areas to sit in and read these books. And there are events, with the authors, so that you can listen to them discuss their works and the works of others. C.S. Lewis will pontificate upon Green theater while Aeschylus yells back at him and Sophocles pounds the table. The worldbuilding panel will have Tolkien and Ursula Le Guin on it.
And, as on this mortal plane, these nourishing events are meant to feed you, so that you can go out and do stuff. Make stuff.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
An endless walk in paradise.
With everyone.
Where a trillion sparrows murmurate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT, and a few allusions in the New Testament. Myself, I look to the end of Revelations when the writer says, in the end, there will be a new heaven and a new earth with a new Jerusalem and the throne of God in the center. More than that, I would have to say I don't know what paradise will be like.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
There are two glimpses of heaven I hold onto, one of a garden with extraordinarily beautiful plants, the other of fantastic song lyrics. I've seen and heard each in visions. These are aspects of life I appreciate, and so if given glimpses of heaven, these are naturally aspects I would be given, or would imagine.
All I hope for in heaven is a continuation of the knowledge of the love of God I experience here and now. Anything else is a bonus.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Bits of my faith I really 'feel', and can defend quite strongly. Other bits, including heaven, I accept on trust but don't really have an emotional connection with. Jesus said 'today you will be with me in paradise' - so OK, I guess I accept it because I trust Him. But -
Sometimes I find it motivating to think that when we die, we're dead - and that 'eternal life' is that life which comes about when people *do* God's will in the here and now. In that case it's eternal only because someone's kids' kids' kid will be taking over from us at some point in the future, and their kids will take it over in turn from them.
If that were the case, why would I waste my few years here doing anything other than participating in eternal life?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Me too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT . . . .
That depends, I guess, on what is meant by "heaven." The prophets certainly speak of the messianic age when swords will be beaten into plowshares, death will be swallowed up, the dead will be raised, and no one will hurt or destroy in all of God's holy mountain. The images of the new heaven and the new earth in Revelation—which like you I find to be as much of a glimpse as we are given of what Jews call olam haba, the World to Come—echo the descriptions in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Daniel. That may not fit the popular image of heaven, but it certainly seems consistent with the Scriptural view of heaven
The one other "clear" image I can think of that we are given of heaven in Scripture is that of a joyous feast.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I don’t get excited by any steady state images of heaven: gardens, feasts, being with the dead, unending bliss. The best things for me are changes: a new understanding, the poor invited to top table, a revolutionary work of art (I saw a Botticelli and a Caravaggio this week), remembering to look for the dead amongst the living, letting go of a false fear. It’s there in Christ’s words to the man on the next cross, but not in any ideas of later that afternoon.
I also saw thousands of formulaic paintings this week, including a dome above me painted with false perspective to look like a view up into heaven, pink and gold clouds, draperies around lovely figures; meh.
Analysis may squash it, but it has to do with surprise, resistance, breakthrough, and a new place, and my and others’ response.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
[quote]There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT, and a few allusions in the New Testament. Myself, I look to the end of Revelations when the writer says, in the end, there will be a new heaven and a new earth with a new Jerusalem and the throne of God in the center. More than that, I would have to say I don't know what paradise will be like.[quote]
Yep, you nailed it. In short, no one knows until they get there and the only one who has been there and briefly returned, did not extensively describe it to us, except to say it is a very spacious habitation. (lots of rooms).
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
There will be a Sapphire blue floor - as in ultramarine or lapis lazuli. Ref: Exodus 24:10
I also think there will be endless trailing jasmine (with bush jasmine in the outer suburbs)
Atmospherically - I am a member of the All Peace, Love and Light Faction; and would add that noone will criticise me or argue with me
Birdlife: flitting fantail/piwakawaka, rifleman/titipounamu and hihi/stitchbird with an occasional kea and seagull for amusement
There will be an infinite ARRAY of church-going options, combinations and permutations so I can go to whatever suits me on any particular day. Or not. (For the latter there will be wild coasts and peaceful lakes for the sitting-by).
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Heaven is a story we tell ourselves and most of us do this, it’s comforting. Many dog owners have a ‘Rainbow Bridge’ story they tell each other and themselves, also for comfort.
We cannot imagine a world without ‘me’ in it so we need the comfort of an afterlife.
Does one exist? I’ve no idea, but I’d like to think one does. I love to imagine my Mum and Dad reunited in heaven and waiting for me.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I do not have a vision of heaven or the afterlife. I don't even think about it very much.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Heaven? Might be quite interesting for a short time, but when you have sought out and conversed with a few from whom you'd like some answers, what else would there be to do for the rest of eternity? And if it were to be found to be located in our solar system, what wil happen to it when the sun burns up the whole thing in 5 or so billion years time?!! I'm going to be unaware of all the advances which will be made during the next 80 years, but that is reality and, frustrating though it may be, that's the way things are. I am lucky to have had - am still having - a place and a life here.
As Boogie says, the prospect of heaven may provide a comfort to many, but that is most likely because they have been brought up with the idea and lived in cultures which promote it.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
quote:
There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT,
Actually, indirectly, there is mention of it in the OT.
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." Job. 1:6-12
The text implies that the location is not on or in the earth so presumably it must be heaven since God, (The Lord), is presiding over the proceedings.
It does not get us any nearer a definition of what this unearthly place may be actually like though, I grant you.
Interestingly though there is definitely no mention of Hell in the OT though.
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
I don't understand "heaven" except as "with God, sometimes especially when we're not 'physically alive here'."
The "pure heaven" bit is only a passing state or holding pattern until the general resurrection and "new heavens and new earth" in "the world to come".
Or so I pray. I'm sure I'd suck at harps.
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Heaven? Might be quite interesting for a short time, but when you have sought out and conversed with a few from whom you'd like some answers, what else would there be to do for the rest of eternity?
Play computer games and chat on forums?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
I hear lots of people talking about the dearly departed like "I miss them so dearly, one day we'll all be together again" but I've always thought this is very one-sided and selfish.
You may want to spend eternity gossiping to Auntie Doreen, but whilst she used to tolerate you blathering away over a weekly cup of tea she has no desire to repeat the experience, especially not forever.
Posts: 29 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I wonder how many people believe in a heaven not only because it is a comfort, but also because it is too scary not to? Or deep down, when they are totally honest with themselves, do they acknowledge that they accept there isn't one, while keeping that acknowledgement entirely to themselves?
Is there a necessity to pass on this idea of a comfort/heaven to future generations? If they grow up not believing that such a *place* exists and is therefore inaccessible - while at the same time remainin involved in other aspects of belief and worship - will this blight their lives? My personal answer to that is, obviously, that it will not.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder how many people believe in a heaven not only because it is a comfort, but also because it is too scary not to? Or deep down, when they are totally honest with themselves, do they acknowledge that they accept there isn't one, while keeping that acknowledgement entirely to themselves?
Is there a necessity to pass on this idea of a comfort/heaven to future generations? If they grow up not believing that such a *place* exists and is therefore inaccessible - while at the same time remainin involved in other aspects of belief and worship - will this blight their lives? My personal answer to that is, obviously, that it will not.
I see completely non-religious people doing it all the time, they pass on or make up their own stories, it must be a comfort to them.
Here is another view closer to your’s SusanDoris?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Thank you, Boogie, I definitely agree with the sentiments expressed, especially when he mentions the words which sound so cloying.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I find it fairly interesting that there is so little consensus amongst its believers on the nature of Heaven, and even from those who are willing to share their speculations about what it might be like. It seems likely to me that the reason for this is that we all individually wish for quite different things, and afterlife is so clearly a product of the most profoundly desperate wishful thinking in the face of terrifying nothingness.
Heaven is an idea born of our desire to remain alive. What could be more natural and human? Only gods themselves, perhaps.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
a product of the most profoundly desperate wishful thinking in the face of terrifying nothingness.
I don't have a clear view of heaven, or even much expectation of it - but I don't fear death. I can see how the ego will put up a fair fuss at being finally extinguished. Maybe a good reason to take a good pop at it now.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
There are no guns.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There are no guns.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Hollywood has presented us with a surprisingly consistent picture of what heaven is like.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Personally, I like the one suggested by the ending of Titanic.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I find it fairly interesting that there is so little consensus amongst its believers on the nature of Heaven, and even from those who are willing to share their speculations about what it might be like. It seems likely to me that the reason for this is that we all individually wish for quite different things, and afterlife is so clearly a product of the most profoundly desperate wishful thinking in the face of terrifying nothingness.
Heaven is an idea born of our desire to remain alive. What could be more natural and human? Only gods themselves, perhaps.
I've always thought that Franz Liszt and Archbishop William Temple, in their different ways, were bang on the money. We can't talk very intelligibly about heaven because it is beyond our understanding and it would be really rather worrying if this were not the case.
Otherwise, His will is our peace, here comes one who will augment our love, and the love that moves the sun and other stars.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
What was Jesus's line when asked about the woman who was married to seven brothers in order, and each one died, and then she died, which will she be married to in heaven? Something about "In heaven there is no marrying or giving in marriage", right? Personally think that indicates that heaven will be totally unlike our experiences now, something we can't even anticipate adequeatly.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There are no guns.
Kinda left wing pinko faggotry is THAT?!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
quote:
There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT,
Actually, indirectly, there is mention of it in the OT.
The text implies that the location is not on or in the earth so presumably it must be heaven since God, (The Lord), is presiding over the proceedings.
Well, heaven by definition seems to be the place where God dwells (at least in the Bible).
OTOH the historical Christian hope has never been in 'getting to heaven' as such, but the resurrection of the body on a new earth, to which heaven comes down (presumably as a side effect of God dwelling with man).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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not entirely me
Shipmate
# 17637
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Posted
I’m not convinced it’s corporeal (right word?) if it even exists. I think that so much weight has been placed on heaven & hell historically to justify conformity & provide hope that’s it’s hard to break free from those concepts.
It seems more poignant to focus on what we have some knowledge of & where we are now.
Although I admit I have a naïveté on such matters as when questioning Christianity the “framework” of non-believers going to hell was one the hardest ideas to let go of even if I applied it primarily to myself in adolescent self-absorption at the time.
Posts: 68 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
What was Jesus's line when asked about the woman who was married to seven brothers in order, and each one died, and then she died, which will she be married to in heaven? Something about "In heaven there is no marrying or giving in marriage", right? Personally think that indicates that heaven will be totally unlike our experiences now, something we can't even anticipate adequeatly.
I rather like CS Lewis' notion that heaven won't be anything like we imagine, but that when we see it will just "seem right"-- as in, "oh, of course it would be like this!" And that it will be "more real" than this life, like a play vs real life.
But in the Bible I see more emphasis on "the coming Kingdom" and "the new heaven and earth"-- so I think of it mostly not as something up/over "there" but life here on earth the way it was always meant to be
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'm surprised this has not been mentioned:
Heaven is where Jesus is.
quote:
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, We shall be like him see him, for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3 v 2
The old chorus says:
And I shall see him face to face
and tell the story,saved by grace.
I do not believe that heaven will be 'this world but cleaner', and I believe that everyone who believes in 'the afterlife' and paints all manner of pictures to describe its joys and relationships, is simply doing so because of the reality of the real place. They are imagining what their heart tells them is true. The reality however is far greater and more real than our minds can dream of - but Jesus is the centre.
One of my favourite quotes, from CS Lewis:
quote:
If I find in myself desires which nothing in this world can satisfy, the only logical explanation is that I was made for another world.
[ 19. February 2018, 06:14: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Whoops,out of time to correct the typo in the Bible verse I quoted.
I need new glasses.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zogwarg
Apprentice
# 13040
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Posted
The least terrifying version of heaven I can envision is one where time doesn't really make sense.
It's the pure presence of God, eternity as infinite time is way too scary. Eternity in boundless time, as in both yesterday, today and tomorrow, is much less inhuman.
Much like time not making physical sense "before" the occurrence of the big bang, I envision heaven maybe as being timeless.
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What's a signature?
Posts: 19 | From: Au pays du soleil levant | Registered: Sep 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zogwarg:
The least terrifying version of heaven I can envision is one where time doesn't really make sense.
It's the pure presence of God, eternity as infinite time is way too scary. Eternity in boundless time, as in both yesterday, today and tomorrow, is much less inhuman.
Much like time not making physical sense "before" the occurrence of the big bang, I envision heaven maybe as being timeless.
Do you imagine you would be able to think there? converse with others?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I don't like the idea of timelessness. I don't actually think it's a Biblical concept. If something is going to exist in a state of timelessness then logically it's a state of being frozen, unconscious, static.
The Biblical belief is not mere immortality, but resurrection. However you define resurrection, surely it is no less than being the best 'me' there can be - whole, perfect, complete, 'ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven' but still'me'.
Recognisable, alive, mobile, in relationship and 'employment'.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zogwarg
Apprentice
# 13040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Do you imagine you would be able to think there? converse with others?
Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is how heaven is, only that it's the least terrifying version I can imagine.
In this hypothetical heaven, I picture some kind of complete conversation, it's all conversations happening at once. So it's not a conversation in the conventional sense of the word since there is no longer a sequence of events or ideas but a perfect juxtaposition of events and ideas.
It's like a painting vs a novel. But the painting can still tell a story, at has coherence.
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What's a signature?
Posts: 19 | From: Au pays du soleil levant | Registered: Sep 2007
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Zogwarg
Apprentice
# 13040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't like the idea of timelessness. I don't actually think it's a Biblical concept. If something is going to exist in a state of timelessness then logically it's a state of being frozen, unconscious, static.
The Biblical belief is not mere immortality, but resurrection. However you define resurrection, surely it is no less than being the best 'me' there can be - whole, perfect, complete, 'ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven' but still'me'.
Recognisable, alive, mobile, in relationship and 'employment'.
I'm on the fence myself about timelessness. (in both truth and desirability) I think the idea is probably too clever to be true, but I still find it a lot less scary than the alternative.
Fascinating idea to explore though.
I don't think that timeless necessarily means dead or frozen. See the analogy about paintings, they can still tell a compelling story. If anyone wants a read I definitely recommend "Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art" By Scott Mc Cloud, which is an in-depth analysis of comic books as a medium, and explores among other things how comic books can explore non-sequentiality.
[edit] I do think that a possible interpretation of "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty." Is a sense of timelessness from god
[ 19. February 2018, 12:50: Message edited by: Zogwarg ]
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What's a signature?
Posts: 19 | From: Au pays du soleil levant | Registered: Sep 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't like the idea of timelessness. I don't actually think it's a Biblical concept. If something is going to exist in a state of timelessness then logically it's a state of being frozen, unconscious, static.
The Biblical belief is not mere immortality, but resurrection. However you define resurrection, surely it is no less than being the best 'me' there can be - whole, perfect, complete, 'ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven' but still'me'.
Recognisable, alive, umobile, in relationship and 'employment'.
This
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I don't want to be a painting, whatever story it 'tells'. The painting is lifeless; it has no consciousness, no self, no awareness. It's life is only in the consciousness of the one looking at it - beauty is, literally, in the eye of the beholder.
As far as I am concerned I want to be me, consciously alive and able to relate.
I will be there,body, soul and spirit, and the resurrection body and life of Jesus will be the pattern.
Which means I get to eat in heaven as well - though I dope there's chocolate in heaven and not just a bit of broiled fish and some bread.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zogwarg
Apprentice
# 13040
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Posted
Well indeed a painting is lifeless, it is just a juxtaposition of paint, ultimately.
Qualitatively that is very different from a juxtaposition of thought/soul/emotion. Again to timeless doesn't have to mean dead, or even unrelatable.
Now the resurrected body of Christ is a big wrench in this vision of heaven. I guess that hypocritically it could be reconciled by appealing to a platonic ideal of reality. The perfect idea of a body, being more real than the physical stuff.
(But it doesn't really square with scripture)
And yes I guess I would miss chocolate too.
(Though timeful eternity is absolutely terrifying to me, I can still remember 5 years old me being kept up at night by the thought for weeks of pure dread)
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What's a signature?
Posts: 19 | From: Au pays du soleil levant | Registered: Sep 2007
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Doris Lessing in one of her SF books I think imagines a collection of ghosts circling the planet, intensely interested and unable to break away into the void or the great beyond or whatever. This is my memory of what Doris wrote, and it is probably incredibly distorted. One day I will find the exact edition I want of the old Canopus in Argos series, and then I shall re-read the lot. I think she's an under-appreciated novelist of superb skill. I recommend Mara and Dann for a vision of a devolved humanity.
The image has stayed with me for a long time. I'm pretty sure I don't really understand it, that she's saying something more than I perceive. God, I love that feeling. That's probably why I like Martin's stuff when he is on fire.
Visions of heaven and hell for that matter are truly fantastic imaginative fantasies. They say more about we who construct them than the object of our dreaming. I think they are worth careful study by someone else.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Zogwarg
I like your idea of the picture. However, if by some chance I find myself in this or any heaven when I die, I'll be looking for the exit!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The other very modern concept is computers. We are programs, running on machines with many unsatisfactory features. Knees, sacroiliac, appendixes, there are many weak points which accumulate in our current processors. The software too is buggy, prone to stupidities, obsessions, and other problems.
So: we die, and the machine goes to the cemetery. The soul, all that is really you, gets downloaded as you die onto the Heavenly servers. Angelic software engineers go through and get all the bugs out over at their Purgatory computer facilities. When you are all tidied up and fixed you are downloaded into a better machine. We haven't the processing capability to imagine the powers of our better existence; we can only postulate from our current flawed perspective.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I like your idea of the picture. However, if by some chance I find myself in this or any heaven when I die, I'll be looking for the exit!
Why? Wouldn't that be the proof you've been saying all along that you would accept if only it existed? So now it turns out that you would NOT accept proof if it exists. You are not just a non-believer, but an anti-believer, and all your gas about "evidence" is just subterfuge.
[ 19. February 2018, 14:29: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zogwarg:
Well indeed a painting is lifeless, it is just a juxtaposition of paint, ultimately.
Qualitatively that is very different from a juxtaposition of thought/soul/emotion. Again to timeless doesn't have to mean dead, or even unrelatable.
Now the resurrected body of Christ is a big wrench in this vision of heaven. I guess that hypocritically it could be reconciled by appealing to a platonic ideal of reality. The perfect idea of a body, being more real than the physical stuff.
(But it doesn't really square with scripture)
I appreciate the fact you're acknowledging it.
This is why I think Mudfrog is quite correct-- just as the best picture of God we have is Jesus, the best picture we have of the afterlife is the resurrected Jesus. And the resurrected Jesus was decidedly NOT a timeless "immortal soul"-- he existed in space & time. His resurrected body was both similar and different from our mortal bodies-- it was recognizable, was able to move and act and hold things, was able to be touched. And yet it was apparently able to appear and disappear, to move in some way without our usual physical restrictions. And of course, we believe it was and is eternal.
I think this points to something much closer to the Jewish idea of the resurrection of the dead and not at all to the Greek idea of the immortal soul.
[ 19. February 2018, 14:54: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other very modern concept is computers. We are programs, running on machines with many unsatisfactory features. Knees, sacroiliac, appendixes, there are many weak points which accumulate in our current processors. The software too is buggy, prone to stupidities, obsessions, and other problems.
So: we die, and the machine goes to the cemetery. The soul, all that is really you, gets downloaded as you die onto the Heavenly servers. Angelic software engineers go through and get all the bugs out over at their Purgatory computer facilities. When you are all tidied up and fixed you are downloaded into a better machine. We haven't the processing capability to imagine the powers of our better existence; we can only postulate from our current flawed perspective.
I like the idea of being restored to factory settings, but then being upgraded.
However, going back to the human analogy, do you not think the=at the body is included in what is 'really you'?
We are not disembodied spirits. We are whole beings and I cannot conceive of any existence that does not include a body - as different as it is going to be!
I shall certainly be body, soul and spirit in Heaven - I shall be like Jesus.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Oh, and if Jesus is not the reason for being 'in' Heaven, if Jesus is not there, then it won't be Heaven and I won't want to be there. In fact, I won't be there.
If anyone wants Heaven but doesn't want Jesus, then they won't be there either.
...In fact, if you don't want Jesus in Heaven, why on earth would you want to be there in the first place?
If the afterlife, when you get there, doesn't include Jesus, then I'm afraid you're in Hell.
[ 19. February 2018, 15:26: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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