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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Farage you utter sack of shit
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Of course, nobody is forced to put import duties onto anything. The EU has a deal with Palestine, for example, which means certain products are duty free.
And products are obviously not the same price across the EU for a whole load of different reasons - transport costs, economies of scale, labour costs, demand etc.
The actual difference between being in the EU and not is that all (legal) products can move entirely freely around the zone without any interference. So I can go and sell my products in Sweden or Spain or Romania as if I was a citizen/resident of those countries.
If the UK leaves the EU, then there will inevitably be trade barriers, even if they're not actual import tariffs.
Sure. And conversely, someone in Sweden or Spain or Romania will face greater barriers to coming to the UK to sell their stuff there.
The positives and negatives of this depend very much on one's position. Are you buying or selling? Which market is the most lucrative, the one you're in or the one you're not? Who are your competitors and how is their situation different to yours?
What is most valuable to you in a product?
I put that last one separately because it's one that's been bugging me a bit lately. Globalisation seems to have become a race to provide the cheapest product, not the one of the greatest value. A lot of the world seems happy to purchase a product that is a little bit shit so long as it's the cheapest option.
And then, while saying that our trade is "free", we end up having to impose various standards and requirements and bans to protect ourselves and see to it that none of this stuff is really shit in ways that could render a product either useless or dangerous.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely see the benefits of trade. But I sometimes think that we are so keen on the notion of "free" trade that we cease to engage in critical thinking about the kinds of barriers that we want and need.
Meanwhile, we make it easier for really big companies to move money and resources around, evade our taxes (a big issue in Australia recently, with the Australian divisions of multinationals like Google and Apple paying almost nothing on Australian-generate income) and then we're surprised that they are so much more able to take advantage of the globalised world than all the people we thought we were doing it for.
We had cigarette companies suing Australia for imposing world-leading bans on tobacco advertising. That was the whole problem. "World-leading" is a synonym for "different". Thankfully the case was lost, but I definitely find it concerning that such a case is even possible.
For all the benefits of being able to go to Sweden or Spain or Romania and do business as if you were a citizen, the fact is you're not a citizen. The governments of those countries are not elected by you, they're not answerable to you at the ballot box, and they're not supposed to be looking after your interests. They're supposed to be looking after the interests of their actual citizens.
And if those interests aren't compatible with yours then frankly, I think you should be losing out. Conversely, I think the interests of Romanian and Swedish businesses should, in the UK, be losing out to the interests of UK citizens in those situations where a conflict of interests arises.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What is most valuable to you in a product?
I put that last one separately because it's one that's been bugging me a bit lately. Globalisation seems to have become a race to provide the cheapest product, not the one of the greatest value. A lot of the world seems happy to purchase a product that is a little bit shit so long as it's the cheapest option.
Often, "a little bit shit" is good enough. Often, cheap shit is better than no shit.
Telling me that there's more value in that product over there does me no good if I can't afford it, and it does me no good if I don't actually need the extra things it does.
Take kids' clothing, for example. It is easy to buy cheap shit, and it's easy to buy more expensive high quality clothes. Most of the time, I buy the cheap shit.
Why? Because they grow so fast, they grow out of it before it's worn out, so there's no advantage to more durable clothing. And if its cheap, I don't have to care when they rip it falling out of a tree, or stain it with permanent ink or anything. The extra value in higher-quality clothing isn't useful to me.
I'd agree that a consequence of the prevalence of cheap shit is that decent stuff tends to be more expensive than it otherwise would. If most price-sensitive consumers are buying the cheap stuff, there's not so much incentive for manufacturers to produce something better at a reasonable price - you often end up with a choice between cheap shit and stupidly expensive.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Conversely, I think the interests of Romanian and Swedish businesses should, in the UK, be losing out to the interests of UK citizens in those situations where a conflict of interests arises.
How far down does this principle extend? A Scottish business in England? A Yorkshire business in London? A Lambeth business in Southwark?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
But hey, England, if you were thinking of trying a charm offensive down here - how's about you send someone charming, not a hamster-cheeked loon who gets his suits second-hand from a used-car salesman, and, if the photographic record is correct, never actually closes his mouth.
I think we weren't actually sending him on a charm offensive. I think we have turned back the clock so far we were trying to exile him to the penal colony.
And he is not a sack of shit. A sack of shit has some possible use as fertiliser.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And he is not a sack of shit. A sack of shit has some possible use as fertiliser.
Be fair. He'd work as fertilizer, too.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And he is not a sack of shit. A sack of shit has some possible use as fertiliser.
Be fair. He'd work as fertilizer, too.
He would poison the soil.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm beginning to feel very uncomfortable about the way we speak of this man - and I have been guilty, referring to him as toadface, and commenting on the smallness of the back of his head. I believe I have used the word obnoxious. I was delighted when comments were made at the EU about his taking money from us for doing nothing. (I was unable to counter my friend's mother saying what a wonderful man he was and how he had spoken for her. She didn't listen to the reasonable points I did say, but talked over me.)
I'm not sure how one should be answering that of God in him, but I don't think we are.
And I don't think I should be making the remark about needing an MRI scanner, either.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'm beginning to feel very uncomfortable about the way we speak of this man - and I have been guilty, referring to him as toadface, and commenting on the smallness of the back of his head.
I'm generally don't make personal remarks, but apart from that think most of the opprobrium heaped on him in this thread has been on point.
Watch the speech he gave today at the EUP, it was clearly designed to infuriate, do as much as possible to stymie any future agreement, all so he can keep himself in the headlines, and then come back and crow over how the EU had screwed over 'decent people' in the service of his fascist rhetoric.
There's a lifetime effect in terms of lower average earnings to those graduating/leaving school during a recession. Nigel will be fine though - he keeps his money offshore.
Voting Leave was less a vote in favor of a plan (of which there was none) than a vote in favour of whoever profited politically to make hay while the country burned.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I wonder how he will continue to argue that it is decent ordinary people re-enacting Kristallnacht in Lewisham, for example.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I note the besides the speech from the Human Tapeworm, there was also one from an SNP MEP which was received with a standing ovation. Loyal, gallant little Scotland suffering even more from the machinations of this fascist creep than the rest of you. There'll be hands rubbed in Bute House tonight.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think we weren't actually sending him on a charm offensive. I think we have turned back the clock so far we were trying to exile him to the penal colony.
Well ya missed then. NZ was never a penal colony, although escaped convicts did settle here from Australia, including my great, great granddad.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Conversely, I think the interests of Romanian and Swedish businesses should, in the UK, be losing out to the interests of UK citizens in those situations where a conflict of interests arises.
How far down does this principle extend? A Scottish business in England? A Yorkshire business in London? A Lambeth business in Southwark?
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.
[ 29. June 2016, 00:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I didn't know exactly who this man is. But his intemperate and insulting speech made The National on CBC. They labelled it a "ruckus". What on earth is his appeal except to the most base of attitudes and instincts?
The additional story tonight was about the racist attacks, showing several. Is England sliding into something horrible?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.
The end game of the European Project is a single nation state. The goal is that everyone is a European citizen, and you become a citizen of Germany, say, by being a European citizen and moving to Germany.
The EU is trying to get there by some kind of adiabatic process.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.
The end game of the European Project is a single nation state. The goal is that everyone is a European citizen, and you become a citizen of Germany, say, by being a European citizen and moving to Germany.
The EU is trying to get there by some kind of adiabatic process.
In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.
Right now a person can be Scottish, they can live in Scotland, but they can't be a citizen of Scotland.
If the EU ever actually does become a single nation-state, a federation in the sense that places like Australia and the USA are federations, then a lot of the problems of the current system would no longer exist. It's being a halfway-house that actually creates some of the issues, because there are features of the EU that tend to be inconsistent with each other. Are the constituent nations sovereign or aren't they?
However, I'm somewhat skeptical that full federation will ever be managed. There are so many different linguistic and cultural groups that it's going to be extremely tricky.
The only thing that makes me think that it could ever be possible is the existence of India. Because it's the nearest equivalent. However, there's at least an argument that modern India only exists because of the way an external occupying force fused its component parts together.
[ 29. June 2016, 04:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.
The US has the concept of "a citizen of Vermont" (or whichever state). It means exactly a US citizen who is resident in Vermont, but state politicians talk about "citizens of $STATE" all the time.
quote:
It's being a halfway-house that actually creates some of the issues, because there are features of the EU that tend to be inconsistent with each other. Are the constituent nations sovereign or aren't they?
Yes, that was my point. The EU is in the transition regime, where not everything exactly makes sense.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think we weren't actually sending him on a charm offensive. I think we have turned back the clock so far we were trying to exile him to the penal colony.
Well ya missed then. NZ was never a penal colony, although escaped convicts did settle here from Australia, including my great, great granddad.
Huia
I knew he would get lost. Anything outside the UK borders tends to befuddle him.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is England sliding into something horrible?
Yes. Without a doubt. Exactly what, I have no idea, but something very problematic.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And he is not a sack of shit. A sack of shit has some possible use as fertiliser.
Be fair. He'd work as fertilizer, too.
Nah - what if you wanted to grow French beans? Or Spanish onions?
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
I only hope there may be some way back, maybe via Nic Sturgeon?
I want the nightmare to end. Please?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.
Give it time. Haven't you seen "Passport to Pimlico"? It'll be like that.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.
The US has the concept of "a citizen of Vermont" (or whichever state). It means exactly a US citizen who is resident in Vermont, but state politicians talk about "citizens of $STATE" all the time.
Exactly. And Vermonters vote in Vermont state elections, but not in the state elections of New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, etc. Each state has its own constitution, a state supreme court which interprets it as well as lower courts, a state legislature, a governor, etc etc. Most important, state laws govern a lot more of day-to-day life in the US than federal laws do. It very much matters that I live in California and am governed by its laws rather than in Arizona.
The concept of being a citizen of Germany or France or wherever would make total sense if a future united Europe used the American model. I don't know if they should do so, having never given it a lot of consideration, but something akin to the federal/state system in the US would allow for local regulation and government of things like agriculture and education in the component states of a united Europe.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
.. and of course, the sole UKIP member of the HoL (unelected elites anyone?), had this rather idiotically phrased idea to add this afternoon:
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: "My Lords, I am most grateful. Do the Government accept that there are about 3 million EU nationals living at present in the United Kingdom, but there are also 1.2 million British people living in the European Union? When present tensions have calmed down, why would either Brussels or London want to do anything to upset this mutually beneficial situation? Do the Government agree however, that if the EU were to get difficult with our nationals living there, it is we who hold the stronger hand if we retaliate, because so many more of them are living here?"
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.
The US has the concept of "a citizen of Vermont" (or whichever state). It means exactly a US citizen who is resident in Vermont, but state politicians talk about "citizens of $STATE" all the time.
Exactly. And Vermonters vote in Vermont state elections, but not in the state elections of New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, etc. Each state has its own constitution, a state supreme court which interprets it as well as lower courts, a state legislature, a governor, etc etc. Most important, state laws govern a lot more of day-to-day life in the US than federal laws do. It very much matters that I live in California and am governed by its laws rather than in Arizona.
The concept of being a citizen of Germany or France or wherever would make total sense if a future united Europe used the American model. I don't know if they should do so, having never given it a lot of consideration, but something akin to the federal/state system in the US would allow for local regulation and government of things like agriculture and education in the component states of a united Europe.
Then how does one become a citizen of Vermont? If you're not born there, do you go through a ceremony? Do you have to renounce your citizenship of another state, or can you be a dual citizen?
Residency is not citizenship. If I lived in California, there would undoubtedly be a set of laws that applied to me that wouldn't apply to me elsewhere. But I would not be applying to become a citizen of California at any point, I would be applying to become a citizen of the United States while I was residing in California. And I became a United States citizen, I would register as a voter in California because I lived in California.
This is no different to Australian States, which have their own constitutions and their own courts and their own elections. All you are describing is a federation, like mine and like many other countries. That doesn't stop the United States of America being the single country, with a Supreme Court at the top and a national Congress and a national President. And a single citizenship in the sense that most people use the word.
[ 29. June 2016, 22:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
.. and of course, the sole UKIP member of the HoL (unelected elites anyone?), had this rather idiotically phrased idea to add this afternoon:
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: "My Lords, I am most grateful. Do the Government accept that there are about 3 million EU nationals living at present in the United Kingdom, but there are also 1.2 million British people living in the European Union? When present tensions have calmed down, why would either Brussels or London want to do anything to upset this mutually beneficial situation? Do the Government agree however, that if the EU were to get difficult with our nationals living there, it is we who hold the stronger hand if we retaliate, because so many more of them are living here?"
What a piece of wank-cloth. I doubt the EU would do anything about them, but they might find that, no longer being EU citizens, their life there was harder, and would want to return. Or something. The fact that currently they can have friends to visit or visit home is surely part of the appeal?
So OK, the EU sends all of the (retired, non-contributing to the economy) ex-pats back to us, and we send all of the (contributing to our economy, earning money, doing jobs) EU workers back? I think I see who wins in that situation.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is England sliding into something horrible?
Yes. Without a doubt. Exactly what, I have no idea, but something very problematic.
I guess it's the sack of shit the thread started with.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Then how does one become a citizen of Vermont?
By being a US citizen and being resident in Vermont.
From the 14th amendment of the US constitution:
quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
quote:
That doesn't stop the United States of America being the single country, with a Supreme Court at the top and a national Congress and a national President.
Sure, and it also doesn't stop the states being in competition with each other. States routinely take actions which are intended to benefit their own citizens over the citizens of some other state.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Yeah. To the rest of the world that's residency in Vermont. I understand that in the USA they use the word "citizen".
All I'm saying is that to the rest of the world that is not citizenship. And when I'm talking about the possible future of the EU, I'm not going to incorporate an American linguistic quirk.
The whole point is that the EU is currently not a federation in the sense that the USA, Australia, Mexico, Canada, India etc etc etc are federations. If it ever becomes one, then residency will determine eligibility for lower-level elections in a way that doesn't work BETWEEN countries. Because between countries, you can't switch citizenship merely by moving house as the 14th amendment provides.
[ 29. June 2016, 23:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The whole point is that the EU is currently not a federation in the sense that the USA, Australia, Mexico, Canada, India etc etc etc are federations. If it ever becomes one, then residency will determine eligibility for lower-level elections in a way that doesn't work BETWEEN countries. Because between countries, you can't switch citizenship merely by moving house as the 14th amendment provides.
Of course the EU is not such a federation. I thought we were talking about what it might become in the future.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
England will be the 51st State before that happens.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Walking away from the mess you helped create seems to be a theme, does it not?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Teresa May is going to have stacks of plausible deniability if she becomes PM, is she not? "I am not responsible for undertakings given by Nigel Farage/ Boris Johnson/ Michael Gove (delete as appropriate)" will become a wearying refrain at the despatch box.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I did wonder whether his resignation has anything to do with Andrea Leadsom refusing to rule out possibly giving him something to do if she became PM.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
It looks like his views haven't changed much since his school days.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yeah. To the rest of the world that's residency in Vermont. I understand that in the USA they use the word "citizen".
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.
I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.
I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
That I listen to more children than politicians?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.
I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
That I listen to more children than politicians?
Or more children than lawyers. In my line of work, it's common to talk about citizens of states. The Constitution and laws of my state refer to citizens (or the citizenry) of the state. I would guess the same is true of other states.
A resident of the state and a citizen are often used interchangeably, but they are not necessarily the same thing. For example, convicted felons are residents of a state, but often lose the rights of citizenship. In such cases, the rights of citizenship, including the right to vote, are primarily rights under state law, not federal law.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I stand corrected.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)
Everyone else is having a leadership contest, why shouldn't UKIP join in the game?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)
Everyone else is having a leadership contest, why shouldn't UKIP join in the game?
Not the Liberal Democrats! In fact I fully expect to see someone's hot take on all this to be that my not having a leadership crisis at this juncture they are out of touch with the public mood and therefore unfit to govern.
Although, to be fair, the SNP, Plaid, the DUP and, indeed, Sinn Fein are currently untroubled by leadership campaigns. Given Mr Farron's Cumbrian heritage I can only conclude that this demonstrates the stolid and responsible nature of the Celtic people, as opposed to the effervescence and emotionalism of the Anglo-Saxon race. (A jibe rather wasted given that no-one from Victorian England, AFAIK, posts on the ship but in the unlikely event that Charles Kingsley is reading this ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
FWIW I reckon Farage is taking soundings around the lunatic fringe of the Conservative party to see if he can kick-start his career there.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.
I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
That I listen to more children than politicians?
Or more children than lawyers. In my line of work, it's common to talk about citizens of states. The Constitution and laws of my state refer to citizens (or the citizenry) of the state. I would guess the same is true of other states.
A resident of the state and a citizen are often used interchangeably, but they are not necessarily the same thing. For example, convicted felons are residents of a state, but often lose the rights of citizenship. In such cases, the rights of citizenship, including the right to vote, are primarily rights under state law, not federal law.
Assuming they were citizens before their convictions, the first sentence of the 14th Amendment ("All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") seems to say that those felons are still citizens of the US and of their state of residence, whatever the restrictions on their voting rights.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)
Everyone else is having a leadership contest, why shouldn't UKIP join in the game?
Not the Liberal Democrats!
I should have put the emphasis on game. As in, playing silly buggers to amuse themselves and a few political anoraks while the country goes to the dogs around them.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Assuming they were citizens before their convictions, the first sentence of the 14th Amendment ("All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") seems to say that those felons are still citizens of the US and of their state of residence, whatever the restrictions on their voting rights.
True. I muddled things a little, so thanks for the correction. They remain citizens, but lose certain rights of citizenship.
But it's probably worth highlighting/repeating for the purpose of this discussion that the XIV Amendment does say "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens . . . of the State wherein they reside." Prior to this amendment, states could deny state citizenship to persons who had United States citizenship, such as free blacks.
[ 04. July 2016, 16:59: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
Yes, it certainly supports the position that state citizenship is "a thing" (as they say), though it's not clear to me what that entails.
I have found, though, that Googling "citizen of a state" is a quick way to find lots of sites with banners like "The Real Truth - What are they hiding? Stuff the government doesn't want you to know!" I suspect that state citizenship is both "a thing" and also not really the thing that a lot of swivel-eyed loons would like it to be.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I have found, though, that Googling "citizen of a state" is a quick way to find lots of sites with banners like "The Real Truth - What are they hiding? Stuff the government doesn't want you to know!" I suspect that state citizenship is both "a thing" and also not really the thing that a lot of swivel-eyed loons would like it to be.
Half of those sites are maintained by Texans who think they're going to secede from the Union, right? And the rest by survivalists in Idaho, eastern Washington, eastern Oregon, and western Montana.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I have found, though, that Googling "citizen of a state" is a quick way to find lots of sites with banners like "The Real Truth - What are they hiding? Stuff the government doesn't want you to know!" I suspect that state citizenship is both "a thing" and also not really the thing that a lot of swivel-eyed loons would like it to be.
Oh yeah. Of course, many of those sovereign citizen-types also insist that the XIV Amendment is itself somehow unconstitutional.
[ 04. July 2016, 23:24: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Wasn't the Civil War meant to more or less establish that the USA really was one country? I'm sure that's what Ken Burns told me.
Anyway, the UK is working hard to outdo you on the whole question of unity or lack of it. They've been doing it in sporting competitions for years.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Wasn't the Civil War meant to more or less establish that the USA really was one country? I'm sure that's what Ken Burns told me.
In terms of states being able to secede yes. (And it was after the Civil War that we went from saying "the United States are" to "the United States is.") Of course, the XIV Amendment—which standardized qualifications for citizenship across the country and which acknowledged that people are simultaneously citizens of the United States and citizens of individual states—was one of the results of the Civil War.
BTW, while it may not be the norm world-wide, the US is not the only country where sub-national citizenship is found. In Switzerland, one is a citizen of one's municipality/commune, canton and of the Confederation (assuming one is a citizen at all). Can't say if there are other countries where sub-national citizenship exists.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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